David Whitmer says Joseph used a seer stone to translate the Book of Mormon. LDS Historians believe Joseph Smith used a seer stone to translate the Book of Mormon, but authors Jim Lucas and Jonathan Neville are pushing back against that theory. The two lawyers argue that the traditional story that Joseph used the Urim & Thummim to translate is more accurate, and they have written a new book, "By Means of the Urim & Thummim" to lay out their arguments. Because David Whitmer left the Church, they argue David Whitmer is hostile witness and can't be trusted. Check out our conversation...

https://youtu.be/Kl4iVSX8EJA

 

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GT  00:40  Welcome to Gospel Tangents. I'm excited to have a return guest and a new guest here and we're going to talk about the Book of Mormon. Jim, could you go ahead and tell us who you are? And you're the co-author of what book?

Jim  00:54  Okay, I am Jim Lucas. I'm the co-author of a new book on the translation of the Book of Mormon: "By Means of the Urim and Thummim: Restoring Translation to the Restoration." And I'm co-author with Jonathan Neville. My background, briefly, is I'm an attorney. I've lived in New York City all of my adult lifetime after graduating from Columbia Law School, and recently moved to Salt Lake City to pursue Mormon history and theology.

GT  01:29  Well, you're a great fit here on Gospel Tangents. And Jonathan, this is your third time, but just remind people who may have missed your first two interviews. Okay, who you are.

Jonathan  01:39  Well, my name is Jonathan Neville. I currently live in Oregon, but I'm a lawyer by profession, and also an artist, and educator, and author, and so have written several books about issues related to church history. But this is the one that we're going to talk about today that I co-authored with Jim Lucas, also known as James W. Lucas officially on the title.

GT  02:01  All right, well, perfect. So, it's been interesting to me. It seems like we're maybe civil wars a little bit too strong, but there seems to be strong difference of opinion. I'll at least say it that way, on did Joseph use a seer stone? Or did he use a Urim and Thummim? What do you guys think he used? Jim.

Jim  02:26  Well, our view is that he used the Urim and Thummim. Basically, the issue comes down to this. Joseph and Oliver left numerous written accounts, written close in time to the time of the translation, these were during the 1830s and 1840s. Written accounts either written by themselves or directly under their supervision, in the case of Joseph, in which they repeatedly stated that the instrument that was used to translate the Book of Mormon was the Nephite interpreters, which came with the gold plates. So, we know that we're talking here about just the instruments that were described as being two stones set in a metal rim. And people who saw them or heard them described/felt they resembled spectacles. So often they are referred to as the spectacles also.

GT  03:24  Well, you’ve got a hat to demonstrate what it looked like. Right? Both you and Jonathan.

Jim  03:28  That's right. Okay. Yeah, use that.

Jonathan  03:31  I'll show the blue one.

GT  03:33  There is a little bit more contrast there.

Jonathan  03:34  You can see the logos U and T. And then on the back, we have a little logo with a top hat with a line through it.

GT  03:45  No seer stone in a hat?

Jonathan  03:47  No seer stone in a hat. Let me mention just something on top of what he said. Joseph and Oliver didn't write these accounts in a vacuum. But they, there was in 1830, the book "Mormonism Unveiled" set out this whole stone in the hat theory that Joseph Smith didn't use plates. He just read words off what they call the peep stone. And so, when they were responding to that, that book, that narrative,

Polygamy skeptics complain that their work isn’t taken seriously.  I’m going to issue a challenge to them to get peer reviewed.  We’ll also talk about the charge that some people complain that saying Joseph Smith was a polygamist impugns his character.  What does Mark Tensmeyer say about that?  Check out our conversation….

https://youtu.be/rH7DhVbM_kg

GT  2:53:40  Well, I think this all brings us up to the idea that if the polygamy skeptics want to be taken seriously, they've got to become peer reviewed. Don't they?

Mark  2:53:52  Yeah, if they want to engage the academic community, then they absolutely do. Because that is how you engage the academic community. Up until the 1970s, it was that common belief that Joseph Smith was the founder of the priesthood ban. It was Lester Bush, and a few other people that challenged that academically and we've got to respond to that is now the consensus that he was not.

GT  2:54:14  Right.

Mark  2:54:15 So, if you want to engage the academic community, if you want them the academic community to respond to you, that is how you do it. That's how it happens for any discipline.

GT  2:54:25  You've got to start writing in Dialogue or Journal of Mormon History, or John Whitmer, or something.

Mark  2:54:29  Not even that.  I mean, just write in any kind of peer review [journal.]  Write in, like a history of Illinois journal, just somewhere.

GT  2:54:44  Yeah.

Mark  2:54:45  If you really want to engage....  I think one of the arguments for positive evidence of forged documents is History of the Church. In History of the Church, things are changed quite a bit in the Nauvoo period. There's one quote from Brigham Young. He's completing the History of the Church.  He spent all day revising the history of Joseph Smith. There's a journal entry, it's in October 1843, 1842, I don't remember, where it says Joseph is walking up the street and he's saying how to handle people that are teaching plurality of wives, and that it's his position that a man should only have one wife.  In the History of the Church, when that got written and published in the 1850s, they changed that to say a man can only have one wife, unless he's been commanded  to otherwise by revelation from he who holds the keys.  That was added.  So, they say, "Well, that's proof of forged documents."

Mark  2:55:50  Well, you have to understand that there's a difference between writing a history, a secondary source, and changing primary sources.  There's a big, big difference there. That was a pretty common way of telling history and producing documents. Joseph Smith, himself, did so extensively, when he started the History of the Church. He rewrote things and he put the 1835 versions of revelations in, as if those had been how those revelations had gone since the 1820's, from the beginning.

GT:  Yes.

Mark  2:56:32  With no explanation, he completely removed Jesse Gause, who was the first 2nd counselor in the First Presidency.

GT:  That's right.

Mark  2:56:32  He [Jesse] had played a major role in the establishment of the United Order.  He [Joseph] completely removed him and reworded everything that originally Frederick G. Williams had...  He did stuff like [that,] and that was, actually, a fairly common way of writing history at the time.  The documented history of George Washington, which came out about the same time, did a very similar thing.  People just wanted to create a cohesive narrative.  So, that's really what that was. I don't see how that discredits the Utah era of Mormonism and discredits Joseph Smith, because they both did it. Also, it doesn't mean that because they did that, that they actually went and changed the primary documents, themselves.

GT  2:57:31  I mean, how do you even do that?

Mark  2:57:33  I guess you could. They didn't. Because we have the History of the Church. We know what they want the documents to have said to have matched their thing.

Blood Atonement has long been attributed as a reason a hundred Arkansas immigrants were killed in the Mountain Meadows Massacre. Did it play a role in the atrocity? Richard Turley & Barbara Jones Brown discuss the controversial doctrine, and whether the massacre was revenge for Parley Pratt's murder. We'll also discuss whether Brigham Young was involved in the cover-up of the massacre. Check out our conversation...

https://youtu.be/s9HXbhR5CYU

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"Vengeance is Mine" is the sequel to "Massacre at Mountain Meadows." Rick Turley & Barbara Jones Brown discuss what Juanita Brooks and Will Bagley got wrong in their previous Mountain Meadows book. Barbara & Rick have uncovered new records about John D Lee's 2nd trial that changes the traditional narrative. They have uncovered new trial transcripts that break some of the things that previous authors Will Bagley & Juanita Brooks got wrong. What are these new findings? Check out our conversation....

https://youtu.be/PEvWyNqRBIY

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The Mountain Meadows Massacre is the worst event in Mormon History. John D Lee was the only man convicted. For a century, the LDS Church has tried to cover up the terrible event. There is a game-changing book that sheds new light onthe prosecution of John D Lee, the only man convicted of the massacre. The authors conclude the massacre was covered up from the beginning, but was Brigham Young involved? "Vengeance is Mine" is the newest book on the event. Check out our conversation with Barbara Jones Brown & Richard Turley.

https://youtu.be/iy9G5xKrpOA

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That's right! Tired of waiting for the next segment? Gospel Tangents will now post Monday-Friday with the newest segments. Plus I'm simplifying the tiers! Sign up to watch full videos before the price goes up! Check out our merch store at www.gospeltangents.com/shop and I'll be speaking at JWHA in September! Come to Texas if you can!

https://youtu.be/gNGpNkgNKJw

We'll hear about an amusing episode where the CoC prophet sustained the LDS prophet in our final conversation with Dr Mark Scherer, retired Church Historian from the Community of Christ. We'll also discuss Mark's final history, "Journey of a People, Vol 3" that discusses the 1984 revelation allowing women to hold priesthood in the Community of Christ.  Check out our conversation...

https://youtu.be/yEhqFjIhpew

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Few people in the LDS Church know that Emma Smith married again. This time it was a non-Mormon man by the name of Lewis Bidamon. Dr Mark Scherer details how they met, and how Emma raised Lewis's child from an affair! We'll also talk about her grandson, Fred M Smith, who caused a lot of ripples in the RLDS Church. Check out our conversation...

https://youtu.be/HGMEGa2_jiY

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The Civil War Prophecy & Baptism for the Dead are 2 of Joseph Smith's most famous revelations. While important to the LDS, the Community of Christ no longer canonizes either revelation. We'll learn more about their view from Community of Christ historian Dr Mark Scherer. Check out our conversation...

https://youtu.be/Y9J53wmD1KU

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Did Joseph embellish the First Vision accounts? Dr Mark Scherer is the retired Church Historian from the Community of Christ. He's written a 3-volume work called "Journey of a People," similar to the 4-volume Church history work by the LDS Church called "Saints." Volume 1 contains the shared history of the Community of Christ & LDS Church. We'll talk about differences in interpretation, like the First Vision and other events. Check out our conversation...

https://youtu.be/UICbjMjzxgk

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Gospel Tangents

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