We're continuing our conversation with Remnant Prophet-Pres Terry Patience. I'm going to put him on the spot with several hot button issues: evolution, women & priesthood, LGBT, Polygamy, & Sexism. How does he view these issues? Check out our conversation...

https://youtu.be/_Dk8My2MksU

 

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Gospel Tangents

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I'm excited to have another prophet on the show, this time a prophet in Zion! Terry Patience is the prophet-President of the Remnant Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints based in Independence, Missouri. Their headquarters are across the street from the Community of Christ Temple, and they claim several Smiths as leaders of the Remnant Church as well. Check out our conversation...

https://youtu.be/T6b2YJkNTsQ

transcript to follow

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Except for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission

transcript to follow

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Gospel Tangents

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We're looking at the trial and execution of John D Lee. How reponsible was Brigham Young? How did the trials affect public opinion against the Mormons? Dr Janiece Johnson says this reverberates, even to today with the recent release of "Under the Banner of Heaven." Check out our conversation...

https://youtu.be/eHbfd0yW5XU

transcript to follow

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Except for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission

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Gospel Tangents

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148 years ago this week, John D. Lee stood in his trial for his role in the Mountain Meadows Massacre. Dr Janiece Johnson has studied the Mountain Meadows Massacre for over 20 years. Her latest book, Convicting the Mormons is based both on her Ph.D. Dissertation as well as the time she spent working with Richard Turley & Barbara Jones Brown on "Vengeance is Mine." Janiece discusses how Americans viewed the massacre, and how the massacre has been used to cast aspersions on Mormons over a century. Check out our conversation...

https://youtu.be/wwQz-eNuQBQ

transcript to follow

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Gospel Tangents

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Except for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission

transcript to follow

Copyright © 2023

Gospel Tangents

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Except for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission

148 years ago this week, John D. Lee stood in his trial for his role in the Mountain Meadows Massacre. Dr Janiece Johnson has studied the Mountain Meadows Massacre for over 20 years. Her latest book, Convicting the Mormons is based both on her Ph.D. Dissertation as well as the time she spent working with Richard Turley & Barbara Jones Brown on "Vengeance is Mine." Janiece discusses how Americans viewed the massacre, and how the massacre has been used to cast aspersions on Mormons over a century. Check out our conversation...

https://youtu.be/wwQz-eNuQBQ

transcript to follow

Copyright © 2023

Gospel Tangents

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Except for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission

transcript to follow

Copyright © 2023

Gospel Tangents

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There is a claim that there is a Nephite Temple across the Mississippi River from Nauvoo. Does Jay Mackley think there is evidence? In our final conversation with Limited Heartland Geographer Jay Mackley, why does he prefer a tight translation instead of loose for the Book of Mormon? We'll hit the tougher questions: anachronisms, DNA, and geology. Check out our conversation...

https://youtu.be/R9ps8UCuLGw

transcript to follow

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I'm excited to have Jay Mackley on the show. You probably didn't know there is more than 1 Heartland Theory out there. A lot of people think that the current models cover too much area, but Jay has a computer optimized Limited Geography model. Check out our conversation...

https://youtu.be/_ffpLMVB5Bk

transcript to follow

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Bruce R McConkie is famous for advocating that the Catholic Church is the "Great & Abominable Church" mentioned in the Book of Mormon. Is that offensive to Cristina Rosetti, a Catholic? She'll respond to that in our next conversation. We'll also talk about religious violence from the Crusades to Mountain Meadows. What does she think of that? Is religion in decline, or is it readying for another upswing? Check out our conversation...

 

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Great & Abominable Church

Cristina  01:36  Aren't I also the greatest of abominables?

GT  01:39  (Chuckling) Oh, we haven't gone there, have we?

Cristina  01:43  The great whore of Babylon.

GT  01:45  Do you have any thoughts on the Book of Mormon there, and the Catholic Church?

Cristina  01:48  Of that particular part?

GT  01:49  Yes.

Cristina  01:50  No. Not really. No, I mean, Bruce R. McConkie said it to me/my people.

GT  02:01  And you weren't offended?

Cristina  02:04  He's allowed to think that. I mean, here's the thing. It's not like the Catholic Church has high views of the LDS Church. Right? It's not like we've been just so kind to LDS people that like...

GT  02:22  A little blowback is okay.

Cristina  02:23  Yeah, it's fine. I'll take it. It's fine. I mean, the Catholic Church has historically had a very strong opinion about Mormonism. So, of course, the LDS Church would have a strong opinion about Catholicism. The one reason I do think it's a little strange that they butted heads so ardently, is because Mormons and Catholics were both viewed very negatively in the 19th century.

GT  02:49  Oh yeah, absolutely.

Cristina  02:50  Do you know, that great picture of the Capitol. And there's a crocodile and alligator and one is the Mormons and ones says like "Romanist." It doesn't say Catholic. Maybe it does say Catholic. But we're the Papists. And you're the Mormons. Both were hated so vehemently by Protestant America. The fact that they couldn't get along, either you'd think that they would have been like, "Well..."

GT  03:18  Well, you're only like, 100 times bigger than us.

Cristina  03:22  1.3 billion.

GT  03:24  Maybe 1000 times.

Cristina  03:27  I mean, there's 16 million.

GT  03:28  Yeah, 100, I guess I was right.

Cristina  03:30  16 million LDS people.

GT  03:33  Officially.

Cristina  03:35  I have never said that number to an LDS person who hasn't been like, "Well, on the rolls, but in [reality...] Just take it. Just take 16 million. I mean, but that's the same for Catholicism.

GT  03:48  Yeah. There's only like 900 million?

Cristina  03:52  I don't know. I don't know. But I mean, because they track numbers differently. It would be [different.]

GT  04:00  You can say you're Catholic and never go to church. Maybe you can say that with Mormons, too, I guess. But...

Cristina  04:08  The lived religion. But I mean, what is it?

GT  04:12  How many active Catholics are there really?

Cristina  04:14  I don't know. I don't know. I don't know how many active LDS there are. How would you know this answer?

GT  04:22  Well, John Dehlin, said it's about 30%.

Cristina  04:25  Do you know he got that number?

GT  04:26  He used to work at the church.

Cristina  04:28  Oh, so he actually would know.

GT  04:29  Yeah. I mean, but those are old numbers. So I don't know.

Cristina  04:32  I mean, I don't know how many practicing Catholics. I don't know, my church is pretty bumping on Sunday.

Addressing Religious Violence

GT  04:40  So one other question for you, and then I'll let you go, because I know I've kept you a long time. And it's going to be another Catholic question is, earlier in the conversation you were talking about how the Reformation kind of offended you.

Cristina  04:56  I wouldn't say offend. I was just, I think I was taught,

How did Catholic scholar Cristina Rosetti get interested in Mormon polygamists? Did she really attend an LDS Young Single Adult Ward? We'll find out more about her background, as well as the TLC Church, and her feelings about Under the Banner of Heaven. Did she like it? Check out our conversation...

https://youtu.be/hJb2zmY9QhM

 

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Intro to Mormon Polygamists

GT  01:04  How did you learn about this?

Cristina  01:07  Reading Mike Quinn, reading scholars who had [expertise in Mormon polygamy,] reading Brian Hales, reading Craig Foster, reading just more and more.

GT  01:14  Because Brian's got a lot of stuff on fundamentalism.

Cristina  01:16  Right. And also, Craig Foster, and Newell Bringhurst and Brian Hales had done a lot of work on post manifesto, polygamy. And that was a fairly new idea for me because I had heard in Institute, especially, that polygamy ends in 1890.

GT  01:29  It's probably news for most people who sit in the pews, too.

Cristina  01:33  And I've heard some strange justifications for polygamy in Institute. One woman told me the story that so many men died crossing the plains. But polygamy starts before that.

GT  01:45  Right.

Cristina  01:48  So I was like, wait a minute. I heard it started in Nauvoo. So, just that was interesting to me.

GT  01:59  It was just to take care of the widows.

Cristina  02:03  Yes. There was not that no such thing as the Anointed Quorum, none of that. And then I continued to read through these brilliant people and the documents, realizing it doesn't end in 1904, either.

GT  02:18  After the Reed Smoot Hearings.

Cristina  02:20  A lot of scholars have written a lot about that. And that was interesting to me. And as I'm learning about post-manifesto polygamy, I meet Mormon fundamentalists.

GT  02:30  You meet them?

Cristina  02:31  Yeah.

GT  02:32  At Sunstone?

Cristina  02:33  At Sunstone, at MHA, at the Church History Library.

GT  02:39  They come to MHA? I've never seen them at MHA.

Cristina  02:45  Fundamentalists come to MHA. Craig Foster's co-author, Marianne Watson, is a Mormon fundamentalist.

GT  02:50  Oh yeah, I forgot about her. Okay.

Cristina  02:53  She's brilliant. She wrote (I think) one of the greatest essays.

GT  02:58  I'm trying to get her on, but she seems quite camera shy, apparently.

Cristina  03:01  Her article on the origins of placement marriage was brilliant. I highly recommend [it.] It's from Dialogue. I highly recommend it. It's field-changing for studying Mormon fundamentalism.

GT  03:17  Put in a good word for me with her.

Cristina  03:20  Just shoot her an email.

GT  03:21  Her husband is the prophet, now, of the AUB, I think. Did you know that?

Cristina  03:26  That is correct. I knew that.

GT  03:27  You knew that. Of course you did. I'm still jealous of you. You've been to Christ's Church temple.

Cristina  03:33  I have.

GT  03:33  I haven't. And you're not even Mormon.

Cristina  03:38  I'm not.

GT  03:39  I talked to David Patrick. You know David.

Cristina  03:41  Yeah. He was here.

GT  03:43  I told him, "I have a temple recommend, even."

Cristina  03:47  Do you have the right temple recommend, Rick?

GT  03:48  No, that's the problem.

 

Cristina  03:50  Right. Yeah, I realized that polygamy doesn't end in 1890. It doesn't end in 1904. It doesn't end in 1933. It never ends.

 

GT  04:02  It ends officially in 1933.

 

Cristina  04:04  But I mean, it doesn't end in general. It ends in the LDS Church.

 

GT  04:07  Right.

 

Cristina  04:07  But it doesn't end broadly. It's still going. And that was interesting.

Line of Authority for Polygamy

Cristina  04:10  What I was actually more interested in, I wasn't so much interested in the polygamy.

How did a Born Again Christian convert to Catholicism while studying Mormonism? Dr Cristina Rosetti answers. Check out our conversation...

https://youtu.be/GOBnPmGGRjw

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Catholic Conversion

GT  00:44  All right. Well, so that's interesting to hear. Because I was always curious about [how you became Catholic.] Well, we did miss the story. And I don't mean to make this a conversion story. But how did you get involved in Catholicism?

Cristina  00:57  How did I become Catholic? I started doing my exams for grad school, my doctoral exams. We have to do three exams. We had to do a major field, minor field, and a theory method exam. My major field was American religion. My minor field was Christian history. And I started reading from the beginning, Christian history.

GT  01:25  Okay.

Cristina  01:27  The ancient stuff was cool. The medieval stuff I kind of just got through. Now, I think the medieval period is rad, but at that time...

GT  01:35  It was boring.

Cristina  01:36  It was tough. It was a rough go. Reading, like, the rule of St. Benedict. I was like [bored], that's fine. Now, I have, like, a Saint Benedict medal on my phone. I don't know. Now, he's great.

GT  01:49  I think the name Bennett comes from Benedict.

Cristina  01:53  Well...

GT  01:53  I don't know if you knew that.

Cristina  01:54  He's rad.

GT  01:54  [It means] Benevolent.

Cristina  01:55  St. Benedict is rad. That's an honor.

GT  01:58  I don't know anything about him, but we might have to learn.

Cristina  02:03  He has a medal. The whole exorcism prayer is on it.

GT  02:05  Oh, wow.

Cristina  02:07  But yeah, so I started doing that. And I got to the Reformation. And I read a book, called Christ's Churches Purely Reformed: A Social History of Calvinism. And there was a section in it, where it's talking about the radical reformation. And the radical reformation was rough. It was violent. It was rough. I mean, there were these stories about people decapitating statues and feeding the Eucharist to dogs and mocking it. And it was a really difficult, rough period. And I was upset at the radical reformers. I was angry at Thomas Muntzer.

GT  02:47  Okay.

Cristina  02:47  Why? I have no reason to be mad at these people, at all. I'm not invested in this story.

GT  02:52  We don't even know anything about the Reformation until Luther. Is he before Luther?

Cristina  02:56  He's after. Luther initiates what's called the magisterial reformation in 1517. After Luther, there's this big question in the minds of a lot of people in Germany, where people think it's really great that you are starting to change the religion and our place in the church. But what are you going to do if anything about our temporal position in the world? There was a drought in Germany at this time. Things were really difficult, and a lot of peasants specifically called on Luther to help them temporally, not just spiritually. Luther says, "No." Luther tells people that are really suffering, that your freedom and your salvation is found in God. The rest of it, you're on your own. It initiated what's called the Peasants War.

GT  03:55  Luther initiates the Peasants War?

Cristina  03:57  No. These peasants end up revolting against their temporal situation. Thousands of peasants die in this war. And Luther is very hands off, but someone named Thomas Muntzer steps in. And Thomas Muntzer is a radical who says, "We will fix your temporal state, as well as your spiritual state, at any cost." And the radical reformation is really marked by this very, as the name says, a radical way of trying to change the world. Luther has initiated a spiritual change to the world. The radical reformers were going to change the temporal world, as well. This manifests in reformers like Ulrich Zwingli.