Ground Truths

In our divided world we face or avoid conflicts on a frequent basis. I turned to Bob Bordone and Joel Salinas to find out the best strategies to deal with these, including having them take on a mock conflict between each other on the merits of Covid research.

Audio file

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Transcript with Audio Links

Eric Topol (00:06):

Well, hello. It's Eric Topol with Ground Truths, and we're going to get into a new book called Conflict Resilience: Negotiating Disagreement Without Giving Up or Giving In, and we're lucky to have its two authors, Bob Bordone, who is a Senior Fellow at Harvard Law School, and Joel Salinas, who is a physician, neurologist, a clinician scientist at NYU. So welcome both Bob and Joel.

Bob Bordone and Joel Salinas (00:34):

Thank you for having us. Yeah, looking forward to the conversation.

Eric Topol (00:37):

Yeah. So first, how did you guys get together? This is a pretty diverse, you got law and medicine, usually they don't talk to each other very much.

Bob Bordone (00:46):

Well, we were very fortunate. I mean, we basically were friends, but part of that friendship, I think emerged from work that I do around conflict issues in the Mass General system and then just the larger, bigger Mass General, Harvard community. Yeah, so this began really as a friendship where we were each swimming in very different waters, but then as we would start to talk, we realized there was a lot of connection and maybe the possibility to bring two different disciplines together in a way that might be practically useful and make an impact. And even when we started writing this, which was during Covid, what seemed to be some pretty polarizing times that were unlikely to resolve by the time the book would come out.

Eric Topol (01:44):

Yeah, well you sure hit it with the divisiveness and the polarized world that we live in is perhaps worse than ever, certainly in all my years, and probably long before then as well. So this topic of resilience, it's a very interesting concept because some people might think of resilience as just being tough. So go into a conflict and just go heavy tough. That obviously is not what you're writing about. And I guess maybe we can start off, what was the goal here? Obviously, there's other books that have addressed this topic, I'm sure, but yours is somewhat unique in many respects because it brings in the science of it and many strategies perhaps that have never been developed. But when you got together, what was the mission that you set out to do?

Joel Salinas (02:38):

Yeah, well maybe I can start out and then you can add on. So my research has been all around understanding how social relationships influenced brain health, and one of the things that I was seeing was social isolation and loneliness had been steadily increasing. Want to figure out what kind of interventions or what are the factors that are involved here? And I think one of the things that has stood out is just the difficulty with being able to navigate conflict in different contexts. And so, the idea around conflict resilience is really, even though there's been lots of books on what to say and what specific tactics to use, I think that there was this skillset around just being able to sit with the discomfort of that disagreement, which will ultimately help make it much more useful to take on those tactics. One way to think about it, if it's like all these tactics are like learning how to cook with a set of recipes in the kitchen, what we're really proposing here is that you also need to be able to stand the heat of the kitchen to even be able to cook.

Eric Topol (03:47):

Okay. Go ahead, Bob.

Bob Bordone (03:49):

Yeah, and I would say I was starting to write about my first kind of piece on this topic where I use the word conflict resilience was in 2018, and it really came from an observed dynamic that I was seeing in my teaching of Harvard Law School students. I was on the admissions committee, I'd been on the admissions committee for many years. I knew that we worked very hard and were quite successful in fact, at bringing together a very diverse student body, including politically. And people sometimes maybe think of elite law schools as being very progressive. But Harvard Law School, the biggest student organization is actually the Federalists, which is the conservative students. And despite that effort, what I noticed in the classroom was a reduction in conversation, diversity of viewpoint across the board, interesting classrooms became boring. And even though I was teaching around conflict and negotiation and difficult conversations, I would read in students' journals things like, I want to avoid conflict or I don't want to get into it.

Bob Bordone (04:59):

And so, it occurred to me that quite a part, as Joel said, from any skills, if we don't develop this capacity to sit with disagreement, then we will never get to problem solving. I'm in favor of problem solving. But this paper on conflict resilience, its original title was called Against Problem Solving. Mostly because I thought that if we had opened the possibility of problem solving as a precondition for entering the room, then we might never enter the room, particularly if we've told the demonized and dehumanized story about them. And so, that somehow we had to make the case that sitting with the discomfort of the disagreement, even if it didn't mean problem solving, although we hope for that, even if we didn't mean that it was worthwhile and it was important. And so, part of what was really attractive to me about joining up with Joel is that he just brought all of this brain science aspect to it that I had this kind of teaching and kind of academic in the negotiation and dispute resolution research experience, but couldn't bring to bear the kind of brain science parts of, well, what is going on in our brain when we do want to run or when we get into that really unproductive battle.

Eric Topol (06:27):

Yeah, I agree that the unique part here is that whole scaffolding with the neuroscience, the behavioral science, and those five Fs that you mentioned. You alluded to fight, flight, freeze, fawn, or fester. Yeah, so avoidance of conflict has kind of been the default for many people now because we have political divides, we have anti-science versus pro-science divides and on and on. There's a quote in the book that I thought we'd start off with because it really lays the groundwork from you both. “The biggest hidden barrier to being conflict resilient stems from the inability or unwillingness to face and sit with our own internal conflicts - the negotiations between our divided and sometimes contradictory “selves.” Even more surprising is that although there are dozens of self-help books on negotiation and conflict resolution, almost none of them spend any meaningful time on this critical intrapersonal barrier to handing conflict.” So maybe Joel, maybe start you off here. I guess you were bullied as a kid, and maybe that gives you a little background here. Joel, tell us about that if you would.

Bob Bordone (07:46):

Hey, Eric. On our bad days sometimes I probably inadvertently bully Joel still today, but he's pretty resilient now.

Joel Salinas (07:53):

Yeah, I'm a Teflon. So I think I am generally conflict of what an individual, and I think a lot of listeners and viewers can relate with that experience. And I think that also kind of speaks to some of the neuroscience that comes into this, which is that our brain has really evolved to be a fortune telling machine. It takes all of our past experiences, turns them into memories, and then makes projections about what's going to happen. And this projection or prediction of what's going to happen might as well be reality for our brain's sake. And so, if we had really negative experiences with conflict in the past growing up, whether through our families or the schoolyard or others, there'll…

“Eventually, my dream would be to simulate a virtual cell.”—Demis Hassabis

The aspiration to build the virtual cell is considered to be equivalent to a moonshot for digital biology. Recently, 42 leading life scientists published a paper in Cell on why this is so vital, and how it may ultimately be accomplished. This conversation is with 2 of the authors, Charlotte Bunne, now at EPFL and Steve Quake, a Professor at Stanford University, who heads up science at the Chan-Zuckerberg Initiative

The audio (above) is available on iTunes and Spotify. The full video is linked here, at the top, and also can be found on YouTube.

TRANSCRIPT WITH LINKS TO AUDIO

Eric Topol (00:06):

Hello, it's Eric Topol with Ground Truths and we've got a really hot topic today, the virtual cell. And what I think is extraordinarily important futuristic paper that recently appeared in the journal Cell and the first author, Charlotte Bunne from EPFL, previously at Stanford’s Computer Science. And Steve Quake, a young friend of mine for many years who heads up the Chan Zuckerberg Initiative (CZI) as well as a professor at Stanford. So welcome, Charlotte and Steve.

Steve Quake (00:42):

Thanks, Eric. It's great to be here.

Charlotte Bunne:

Thanks for having me.

Eric Topol (00:45):

Yeah. So you wrote this article that Charlotte, the first author, and Steve, one of the senior authors, appeared in Cell in December and it just grabbed me, “How to build the virtual cell with artificial intelligence: Priorities and opportunities.” It's the holy grail of biology. We're in this era of digital biology and as you point out in the paper, it's a convergence of what's happening in AI, which is just moving at a velocity that's just so extraordinary and what's happening in biology. So maybe we can start off by, you had some 42 authors that I assume they congregated for a conference or something or how did you get 42 people to agree to the words in this paper?

Steve Quake (01:33):

We did. We had a meeting at CZI to bring community members together from many different parts of the community, from computer science to bioinformatics, AI experts, biologists who don't trust any of this. We wanted to have some real contrarians in the mix as well and have them have a conversation together about is there an opportunity here? What's the shape of it? What's realistic to expect? And that was sort of the genesis of the article.

Eric Topol (02:02):

And Charlotte, how did you get to be drafting the paper?

Charlotte Bunne (02:09):

So I did my postdoc with Aviv Regev at Genentech and Jure Leskovec at CZI and Jure was part of the residency program of CZI. And so, this is how we got involved and you had also prior work with Steve on the universal cell embedding. So this is how everything got started.

Eric Topol (02:29):

And it's actually amazing because it's a who's who of people who work in life science, AI and digital biology and omics. I mean it's pretty darn impressive. So I thought I'd start off with a quote in the article because it kind of tells a story of where this could go. So the quote was in the paper, “AIVC (artificial intelligence virtual cell) has the potential to revolutionize the scientific process, leading to future breakthroughs in biomedical research, personalized medicine, drug discovery, cell engineering, and programmable biology.” That's a pretty big statement. So maybe we can just kind of toss that around a bit and maybe give it a little more thoughts and color as to what you were positing there.

Steve Quake (03:19):

Yeah, Charlotte, you want me to take the first shot at that? Okay. So Eric, it is a bold claim and we have a really bold ambition here. We view that over the course of a decade, AI is going to provide the ability to make a transformative computational tool for biology. Right now, cell biology is 90% experimental and 10% computational, roughly speaking. And you've got to do just all kinds of tedious, expensive, challenging lab work to get to the answer. And I don't think AI is going to replace that, but it can invert the ratio. So within 10 years I think we can get to biology being 90% computational and 10% experimental. And the goal of the virtual cell is to build a tool that'll do that.

Eric Topol (04:09):

And I think a lot of people may not understand why it is considered the holy grail because it is the fundamental unit of life and it's incredibly complex. It's not just all the things happening in the cell with atoms and molecules and organelles and everything inside, but then there's also the interactions the cell to other cells in the outside tissue and world. So I mean it's really quite extraordinary challenge that you've taken on here. And I guess there's some debate, do we have the right foundation? We're going to get into foundation models in a second. A good friend of mine and part of this whole I think process that you got together, Eran Segal from Israel, he said, “We're at this tipping point…All the stars are aligned, and we have all the different components: the data, the compute, the modeling.” And in the paper you describe how we have over the last couple of decades have so many different data sets that are rich that are global initiatives. But then there's also questions. Do we really have the data? I think Bo Wang especially asked about that. Maybe Charlotte, what are your thoughts about data deficiency? There's a lot of data, but do you really have what we need before we bring them all together for this kind of single model that will get us some to the virtual cell?

Charlotte Bunne (05:41):

So I think, I mean one core idea of building this AIVC is that we basically can leverage all experimental data that is overall collected. So this also goes back to the point Steve just made. So meaning that we basically can integrate across many different studies data because we have AI algorithms or the architectures that power such an AIVC are able to integrate basically data sets on many different scales. So we are going a bit away from this dogma. I'm designing one algorithm from one dataset to this idea of I have an architecture that can take in multiple dataset on multiple scales. So this will help us a bit in being somewhat efficient with the type of experiments that we need to make and the type of experiments we need to conduct. And again, what Steve just said, ultimately, we can very much steer which data sets we need to collect.

Charlotte Bunne (06:34):

Currently, of course we don't have all the data that is sufficient. I mean in particular, I think most of the tissues we have, they are healthy tissues. We don't have all the disease phenotypes that we would like to measure, having patient data is always a very tricky case. We have mostly non-interventional data, meaning we have very limited understanding of somehow the effect of different perturbations. Perturbations that happen on many different scales in many different environments. So we need to collect a lot here. I think the overall journey that we are going with is that we take the data that we have, we make clever decisions on the data that we will collect in the future, and we have this also self-improving entity that is aware of what it doesn't know. So we need to be able to understand how well can I predict something on this somewhat regime. If I cannot, then we should focus our data collection effort into this. So I think that's not a present state, but this will basically also guide the future collection.

Eric Topol (07:41):

Speaking of data, one of the things I think that's fascinating is we saw how AlphaFold2 really revolutionized predicting proteins. But remember that was based on this extraordinary resource that had been built, the Protein Data Bank that enabled that. And for the virtual cell there's no such thing as a protein data bank. It's so much more as you emphasize Charlotte, it's so much dynamic and these perturbations that are just all across the board as you emphasize. Now the human cell atlas, which currently some …

Thank you Katelyn Jetelina, Andy Meyers, Tracy Paeschke, MD, FACC, Bruce Lanphear, Tay MacIntyre, and many others for tuning into my live video with Katelyn Jetelina! Join me for my next live video in the app.

Funding for the NIH and US biomedical research is imperiled at a momentous time of progress. Exemplifying this is the work of Dr. Anna Greka, a leading physician-scientist at the Broad Institute who is devoted to unlocking the mysteries of rare diseases— that cumulatively affect 30 million Americans— and finding cures, science supported by the NIH.

A clip from our conversation

The audio is available on iTunes and Spotify. The full video is linked here, at the top, and also can be found on YouTube.

Transcript with audio and external links

Eric Topol (00:06):

Well, hello. This is Eric Topol from Ground Truths, and I am really delighted to welcome today, Anna Greka. Anna is the president of the American Society for Clinical Investigation (ASCI) this year, a very prestigious organization, but she's also at Mass General Brigham, a nephrologist, a cell biologist, a physician-scientist, a Core Institute Member of the Broad Institute of MIT and Harvard, and serves as a member of the institute’s Executive Leadership Team. So we got a lot to talk about of all these different things you do. You must be pretty darn unique, Anna, because I don't know any cell biologists, nephrologists, physician-scientist like you.

Anna Greka (00:48):

Oh, thank you. It's a great honor to be here and glad to chat with you, Eric.

Eric Topol (00:54):

Yeah. Well, I had the real pleasure to hear you speak at a November conference, the AI for Science Forum, which we'll link to your panel. Where I was in a different panel, but you spoke about your extraordinary work and it became clear that we need to get you on Ground Truths, so you can tell your story to everybody. So I thought rather than kind of going back from the past where you were in Greece and somehow migrated to Boston and all that. We're going to get to that, but you gave an amazing TED Talk and it really encapsulated one of the many phenomenal stories of your work as a molecular sleuth. So maybe if you could give us a synopsis, and of course we'll link to that so people could watch the whole talk. But I think that Mucin-1 or MUC1, as you call it, discovery is really important to kind of ground our discussion.

A Mysterious Kidney Disease Unraveled

Anna Greka (01:59):

Oh, absolutely. Yeah, it's an interesting story. In some ways, in my TED Talk, I highlight one of the important families of this story, a family from Utah, but there's also other important families that are also part of the story. And this is also what I spoke about in London when we were together, and this is really sort of a medical mystery that initially started on the Mediterranean island of Cyprus, where it was found that there were many families in which in every generation, several members suffered and ultimately died from what at the time was a mysterious kidney disease. This was more than 30 years ago, and it was clear that there was something genetic going on, but it was impossible to identify the gene. And then even with the advent of Next-Gen sequencing, this is what's so interesting about this story, it was still hard to find the gene, which is a little surprising.

Anna Greka (02:51):

After we were able to sequence families and identify monogenic mutations pretty readily, this was still very resistant. And then it actually took the firepower of the Broad Institute, and it's actually from a scientific perspective, an interesting story because they had to dust off the old-fashioned Sanger sequencing in order to get this done. But they were ultimately able to identify this mutation in a VNTR region of the MUC1 gene. The Mucin-1 gene, which I call a dark corner of the human genome, it was really, it's highly repetitive, very GC-rich. So it becomes very difficult to sequence through there with Next-Gen sequencing. And so, ultimately the mutation of course was found and it's a single cytosine insertion in a stretch of cytosines that sort of causes this frameshift mutation and an early stop codon that essentially results in a neoprotein like a toxic, what I call a mangled protein that sort of accumulates inside the kidney cells.

Anna Greka (03:55):

And that's where my sort of adventure began. It was Eric Lander’s group, who is the founding director of the Broad who discovered the mutation. And then through a conversation we had here in Boston, we sort of discovered that there was an opportunity to collaborate and so that’s how I came to the Broad, and that's the beginnings of this story. I think what's fascinating about this story though, that starts in a remote Mediterranean island and then turns out to be a disease that you can find in every continent all over the world. There are probably millions of patients with kidney disease in whom we haven't recognized the existence of this mutation. What's really interesting about it though is that what we discovered is that the mangled protein that's a result of this misspelling of this mutation is ultimately captured by a family of cargo receptors, they’re called the TMED cargo receptors and they end up sort of grabbing these misfolded proteins and holding onto them so tight that it's impossible for the cell to get rid of them.

Anna Greka (04:55):

And they become this growing heap of molecular trash, if you will, that becomes really hard to manage, and the cells ultimately die. So in the process of doing this molecular sleuthing, as I call it, we actually also identified a small molecule that actually disrupts these cargo receptors. And as I described in my TED Talk, it's a little bit like having these cargo trucks that ultimately need to go into the lysosome, the cells recycling facility. And this is exactly what this small molecule can do. And so, it was just like a remarkable story of discovery. And then I think the most exciting of all is that these cargo receptors turn out to be not only relevant to this one mangled misshapen protein, but they actually handle a completely different misshapen protein caused by a different genetic mutation in the eye, causing retinitis pigmentosa, a form of blindness, familial blindness. We're now studying familial Alzheimer's disease that's also involving these cargo receptors, and there are other mangled misshapen proteins in the liver, in the lung that we're now studying. So this becomes what I call a node, like a nodal mechanism that can be targeted for the benefit of many more patients than we had previously thought possible, which has been I think, the most satisfying part about this story of molecular sleuthing.

Eric Topol (06:20):

Yeah, and it's pretty extraordinary. We'll put the figure from your classic Cell paper in 2019, where you have a small molecule that targets the cargo receptor called TMED9.

Anna Greka (06:34):

Correct.

Expanding the Mission

Eric Topol (06:34):

And what's amazing about this, of course, is the potential to reverse this toxic protein disease. And as you say, it may have applicability well beyond this MUC1 kidney story, but rather eye disease with retinitis pigmentosa and the familial Alzheimer's and who knows what else. And what's also fascinating about this is how, as you said, there were these limited number of families with the kidney disease and then you found another one, uromodulin. So there's now, as you say, thousands of families, and that gets me to part of your sleuth work is not just hardcore science. You started an entity called the Ladders to Cures (L2C) Scientific Accelerator.

Eric Topol (07:27):

Maybe you can tell us about that because this is really pulling together all the forces, which includes the patient advocacy groups, and how are we going to move forward like this?

Anna Greka (07:39):

Absolutely. I think the goal of the Ladders to Cures Accelerator, which is a new initiative that we started at the Broad, but it really encompasses many colleagues across Boston. And now increasingly it's becoming sort of a national, we even have some international collaborations, and it's only two years that it's been in existence, so we're certainly in a growth m…

Before getting into this new podcast, have you checked out the recent newsletter editions and podcasts of Ground Truths?

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The audio is available on iTunes and Spotify.

The full video is embedded here, at the top, and also can be found on YouTube.

Transcript with links to Audio and External Links

Eric Topol (00:07):

Well, hello. It's Eric Topol with Ground Truths, and I am just thrilled today to welcome Carl Zimmer, who is one of the great science journalists of our times. He's written 14 books. He writes for the New York Times and many other venues of great science, journalism, and he has a new book, which I absolutely love called Air-Borne. And you can see I have all these rabbit pages tagged and there's lots to talk about here because this book is the book of air. I mean, we're talking about everything that you ever wanted to know about air and where we need to go, how we missed the boat, and Covid and everything else. So welcome, Carl.

Carl Zimmer (00:51):

Thanks so much. Great to be here.

A Book Inspired by the Pandemic

Eric Topol (00:54):

Well, the book starts off with the Skagit Valley Chorale that you and your wife Grace attended a few years later, I guess, in Washington, which is really interesting. And I guess my first question is, it had the look that this whole book was inspired by the pandemic, is that right?

Carl Zimmer (01:18):

Certainly, the seed was planted in the pandemic. I was working as a journalist at the New York Times with a bunch of other reporters at the Times. There were lots of other science writers also just trying to make sense of this totally new disease. And we were talking with scientists who were also trying to make sense of the disease. And so, there was a lot of uncertainty, ambiguity, and things started to come into focus. And I was really puzzled by how hard it was for consensus to emerge about how Covid spread. And I did some reporting along with other people on this conflict about was this something that was spreading on surfaces or was it the word people were using was airborne? And the World Health Organization said, no, it's not airborne, it's not airborne until they said it was airborne. And that just seemed like not quantum physics, you know what I'm saying? In the sense that it seemed like that would be the kind of thing that would get sorted out pretty quickly. And I think that actually more spoke to my own unfamiliarity with the depth of this field. And so, I would talk to experts like say, Donald Milton at the University of Maryland. I'd be like, so help me understand this. How did this happen? And he would say, well, you need to get to know some people like William Wells. And I said, who?

Eric Topol (02:50):

Yeah, yeah, that's what I thought.

Carl Zimmer (02:53):

Yeah, there were just a whole bunch of people from a century ago or more that have been forgotten. They've been lost in history, and yet they were real visionaries, but they were also incredibly embattled. And the question of how we messed up understanding why Covid was airborne turned out to have an answer that took me back thousands of years and really plunged me into this whole science that's known as aerobiology.

Eric Topol (03:26):

Yeah, no, it's striking. And we're going to get, of course, into the Covid story and how it got completely botched as to how it was being transmitted. But of course, as you go through history, you see a lot of the same themes of confusion and naysayers and just extraordinary denialism. But as you said, this goes back thousands of years and perhaps the miasma, the moral stain in the air that was start, this is of course long before there was thing called germ theory. Is that really where the air thing got going?

A Long History of Looking Into Bad Air

Carl Zimmer (04:12):

Well, certainly some of the earliest evidence we have that people were looking at the air and thinking about the air and thinking there's something about the air that matters to us. Aristotle thought, well, there's clearly something important about the air. Life just seems to be revolve around breathing and he didn't know why. And Hippocrates felt that there could be this stain on the air, this corruption of the air, and this could explain why a lot of people in a particular area, young and old, might suddenly all get sick at the same time. And so, he put forward this miasma theory, and there were also people who were looking at farm fields and asking, well, why are all my crops dead suddenly? What happened? And there were explanations that God sends something down to punish us because we've been bad, or even that the air itself had a kind of miasma that affected plants as well as animals. So these ideas were certainly there, well over 2,000 years ago.

Eric Topol (05:22):

Now, as we go fast forward, we're going to get to, of course into the critical work of William and Mildred Wells, who I'd never heard of before until I read your book, I have to say, talk about seven, eight decades filed into oblivion. But before we get to them, because their work was seminal, you really get into the contributions of Louis Pasteur. Maybe you could give us a skinny on what his contributions were because I was unaware of his work and the glaciers, Mer de Glace and figuring out what was going on in the air. So what did he really do to help this field?

Carl Zimmer (06:05):

Yeah, and this is another example of how we can kind of twist and deform history. Louis Pasteur is a household name. People know who Louis Pasteur is. People know about pasteurization of milk. Pasteur is associated with vaccines. Pasteur did other things as well. And he was also perhaps the first aerobiologist because he got interested in the fact that say, in a factory where beet juice was being fermented to make alcohol, sometimes it would spoil. And he was able to determine that there were some, what we know now are bacteria that were getting into the beet juice. And so, it was interrupting the usual fermentation from the yeast. That in itself was a huge discovery. But he was saying, well, wait, so why are there these, what we call bacteria in the spoiled juice? And he thought, well, maybe they just float in the air.

Carl Zimmer (07:08):

And this was really a controversial idea in say, 1860, because even then, there were many people who were persuaded that when you found microorganisms in something, they were the result of spontaneous generation. In other words, the beet juice spontaneously produced this life. This was standard view of how life worked and Pasteur was like, I'm not sure I buy this. And this basically led to him into an incredible series of studies around Paris. He would have a flask, and he'd have a long neck on it, and the flask was full of sterile broth, and he would just take it places and he would just hold it there for a while, and eventually bacteria would fall down that long neck and they would settle in the broth, and they would multiply in there. It would turn cloudy so he could prove that there was life in the air.

Carl Zimmer (08:13):

And they went to different places. He went to farm fields, he went to mountains. And the most amazing trip he took, it was actually to the top of a glacier, which was very difficult, especially for someone like Pasteur, who you get the impression he just hated leaving the lab. This was not a rugged outdoorsman at all. But there he is, climbing around on the ice with this flask raising it over his head, and he caught bacteria there as well. And that actually was pivotal to destroying spontaneous generation as a theory. So aerobiology among many, many other things, destroyed this idea that life could spontaneously burst into existence.

Eric Topol (08:53):

Yeah, no. He says ‘these gentlemen, are the germs of microscopic beings’ shown in the existence of microorganisms in the air. So yeah, amazing contribution. And …

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In this podcast with Dr. Emily Silverman, an internist and founder of The Nocturnists, an award winning podcast and live show, we discuss what inspired her in medicine, what led to her disillusionment, the essentiality of storytelling, of recognizing uncertainty, the limits of A.I., and promoting humanity in medicine. The audio is available on iTunes and Spotify. The full video is linked here, at the top, and also can be found on YouTube.

“Storytelling is medicine's currency. Storytelling is not just an act of self-healing; it may actually create better physicians.”—Emily Silverman

Transcript with links to audio and relevant publications, websites

Eric Topol (00:07):

Well, hello. This is Eric Topol with Ground Truths, and with me, I am delighted to welcome Dr. Emily Silverman, who is Assistant Volunteer Professor of Medicine at UCSF, an old training grounds for me. And we're going to talk about some of the experience she's had there and she is the Founder of the remarkably recognized podcast, The Nocturnists. It's more than a podcast folks. We'll talk about that too. So Emily, welcome.

Emily Silverman (00:40):

Thank you for having me.

Inspiration by Kate McKinnon

Eric Topol (00:42):

Yeah. Well, I thought I would go back to perhaps when we first synapsed, and it goes back to a piece you wrote in JAMA about going to the Saturday Night Live (SNL) with Kate McKinnon. And it was one of my favorite columns, of course, it brought us together kind of simpatico because you were telling a story that was very personal, and a surprise factor added to it. We'll link to it. But it said, ‘Sometime in 2016, I fell in love with SNL comedian Kate McKinnon.’ You wrote, ‘It was something about her slow-mo swagger; her unilateral dimple, flickering in and out of existence; the way she drinks up her characters and sweats them from her pores.’ I mean, you're an incredible writer, no less podcast interviewer, organizer, doctor. And you talked about my sterile clinical life, which was kind of maybe a warning of things to come and about the fact that there's two very different career paths, comedy and medicine. One could argue they are in essence the same. So maybe you could tell us about that experience and about Kate McKinnon who, I mean, she's amazing.

Emily Silverman (02:09):

You're making me blush. Thank you for the kind words about the piece and about the writing, and I'm happy to give you a bit of background on that piece and where it came from. So I was in my internal medicine residency at UCSF and about halfway through residency really found myself hitting a wall. And that is actually what gave birth to The Nocturnists, which is the medical storytelling program that I run. But I think another symptom of my hitting that wall, so to speak, and we can talk more about what exactly that is and what that means, was me really looking outside of medicine and also outside of my typical day-to-day routine to try to find things that were a part of me that I had lost or I had lost touch with those aspects of myself. And one aspect of myself that I felt like I had lost touch to was my humorous side, my sense of humor, my silly side even you could say.

Emily Silverman (03:17):

And throughout my life I have this pattern where when I'm trying to get back in touch with a side of myself, I usually find somebody who represents that and sort of study it, I guess you could say. So in this case, for whatever reason that landed on Kate McKinnon, I just loved the surrealism of her comedy. I loved how absurd she is and loved her personality and so many things. Everything that you just read and really found her and her comedy as an escape, as a way to escape the seriousness of what I was doing on a day-to-day basis in the hospital and reconnect with those humorous sides of myself. So that's the understory. And then the story of the article is, I happened to be traveling to New York for a different reason and found myself standing in line outside of 30 Rock, hoping to get into Saturday Night Live. And there was basically a zero chance that we were going to get in. And part of the reason why is the musical guest that week was a K-pop band called BTS, which is one of the most famous bands in the world. And there were BTS fans like camped out in three circles around 30 Rock. So that week in particular, it was especially difficult to get in. There was just too many people in line. And we were at the very end of the line.

Eric Topol (04:43):

And it was in the pouring rain, too.

Emily Silverman (04:45):

And it was pouring rain. And my husband, God bless him, was there with me and he was like, what are we doing? And I was like, I don't know. I just have a feeling that we should stay in line, just go with it. So we did stay in line and then in the morning we got a number, and the way it works is you get your number and then that evening you show up with your number and our number was some crazy number that we weren't going to get in. But then that evening when we went back with our number to wait in line again to get in, what ended up happening is a young woman in the NBC gift shop, she passed out in the middle of the gift shop and I was right there. And so, I went over to her and was asking her questions and trying to help her out.

Emily Silverman (05:27):

And fortunately, she was fine. I think she just was dehydrated or something, and the security guards were so appreciative. And the next thing I knew, they were sweeping me backstage and up a staircase and in an elevator and they said, thank you so much for your service, welcome to Saturday Night Live. So it became this interesting moment where the very thing that I had been escaping from like medicine and serving and helping people ended up being the thing that gave me access, back to that side of myself, the humorous side. So it was just felt kind of cosmic, one of those moments, like those butterfly wing flapping moments that I decided to write about it and JAMA was kindly willing to publish it.

Eric Topol (06:15):

Well, it drew me to you and recognize you as quite an extraordinary talent. I don't know if you get recognized enough for the writing because it's quite extraordinary, as we'll talk about in some of your other pieces in the New York Times and in other JAMA journals and on and on. But one thing I just would note is that I resort to comedy a lot to deal with hard times, like the dark times we're in right now, so instead of watching the news, I watch Jimmy Kimmel's monologue or Colbert's monologue or the Comedy Show, anything to relieve some of the darkness that we're dealing with right at the moment. And we're going to get back to comedy because now I want to go back, that was in 2019 when you wrote that, but it was in 2016 when you formed The Nocturnists. Now, before you get to that critical path in your career of this new podcast and how it blossomed, how it grew is just beyond belief. But maybe you could tell us about your residency, what was going on while you were a medical resident at UCSF, because I can identify with that. Well, like any medical residency, it's pretty grueling experience and what that was like for you.

Medical Residency

Emily Silverman (07:45):

There were so many wonderful positive aspects of residency and there were so many challenges and difficult aspects of residency. It's all mixed up into this sticky, complicated web of what residency was. On the positive side, some of the most amazing clinicians I've ever met are at UCSF and whether that was seasoned attendings or chief residents who they just seemed to have so many skills, the clinical, the research, the teaching, just amazing, amazing high caliber people to learn from. And of cours…

The Chief Scientific Advisor at Novo Nordisk, Lotte Bjerre Knudsen, was the key force who pushed hard to develop GLP-1 drugs for treating obesity and subsequently for Alzheimer’s. She was recently recognized by the 2024 Lasker Medical Research Award, and the 2024 AAAS Bhaumik Breakthrough of the Year Award. That recognition is richly deserved, since it is unclear if the GLP-1 drug path to obesity treatment, and all of the associated benefits, would have been seen at this time without her influence. That’s especially true given the mystery for why people with Type 2 diabetes (for which these drugs were used for many years) did not exhibit much in the way of weight loss. We discussed that and the future of these drugs, including their potential to prevent neurodegenerative diseases. And about dressing up in pink!

The Ground Truths podcasts are also available on Apple and Spotify.

Our entire conversation can also be seen by video at YouTube along with all of the Ground Truths podcasts. If you like the video format, please subscribe to this channel. Even if you prefer video, please take a look at the transcript with graphics and useful links to citations.

A Video Clip below on the barriers of a woman scientist to push Novo Nordisk to develop GLP-1 for obesity.

“I was always just been a nerdy little scientist who kind of found home here in this company for 35 years.”—Lotte Bjerre Knudsen, 60 Minutes

Transcript with Links to audio and external references

Eric Topol (00:06):

Well, hello, it's Eric Topol with Ground Truths, and I have with me a special guest. She's the Chief Science Officer of Novo Nordisk and it's Lotte Bjerre Knudsen, and we're delighted to have her. She's a recent recipient of the Lasker Award, which I think is considered like the pre-Nobel Award here in the United States. And I was involved with her in terms of researching who was the principal person who brought the GLP-1 drugs to the forefront for obesity, and it turned out to be Lotte. So welcome, Lotte.

Lotte Bjerre Knudsen (00:48):

Thank you very much. And also very, very happy to be here. I'm not the Chief Science Officer for Novo Nordisk, I'm the Chief Scientific Advisor of working for the Chief Science Officer of Novo Nordisk, but maybe too many people, not so different, right?

From Laundry Detergents to GLP-1 Drugs

Eric Topol (01:06):

Yes. Thank you, I actually meant to say advisor, but yes, I'm glad you cleared that up. I know from speaking to some of your colleagues, I actually spoke to Robin yesterday that you are looked to very highly, the most highly regarded person in science there, so not surprisingly. What I want to do is first talk about the glucagon-like peptide-1 (GLP-1) that got its legs back in, I guess 1984. So we're going way back. And what's also interesting is that you go way back at Novo Nordisk to 35 years in 1989. And so, there had been this work with this extraordinary hormone and neurotransmitter with a very short half-life that you knew about. But when you first started in Novo Nordisk, you weren't working on this. As I understand it, you're working on laundry detergent enzymes. How did you make this pivot from the laundry enzymes to getting into the GLP-1 world?

Lotte Bjerre Knudsen (02:16):

Yeah, thank you for that question. I'm from the technical University of Denmark, so I'm trained in biotechnology, and we're a small country, so not that many companies to work for. And I always had my mind set on, I wanted to work for Novo as it was called back then, and it just happened to be in the industrial enzyme part that I got my foot in first. And then I had a very interesting boss at the time. Unfortunately, he's not alive anymore, but he was both a medical doctor as well as a chemist. So he was actually put in charge of actually, let's see if we can do something new in diabetes. And then since he hired me and I had not been there that long, I simply tagged along as the youngest scientist on the team, and then suddenly I became a diabetes researcher. Around the same time, I think you remember that all of pharma was interested in obesity in the early 90s, everyone wanted to do diabetes as well as obesity, but they were separate teams and they all wanted to do small molecules, but it just happens to be so that the best idea we could find at that time was actually GLP-1, because we actually had clinical data relatively early that GLP-1 was a really good candidate as a treatment for diabetes because of the glucose sensitivity of the actions.

(03:43):

So you'd have efficient lowering of glucose through a dual mechanism with increasing insulin, lowering glucagon, and then it was safe because there wasn't this hypoglycemia you get from insulin. But then I had other colleagues who were working on obesity, and I was just kind of listening, right, what's going on there? And then also a colleague that I had, we had, I don’t know if you remember the old Hagedorn Research Institute, but Novo actually had kind of like an academic research institute that was affiliated with us. And there was this group that were working on this glucagon tumor model that produced high levels of glucagon, GLP-1 and PYY. And these rats, they starved themselves to death. And I knew about that from 1994. So that actually inspired my thinking. So when Stephen Bloom's paper came out in January of 1996, and he was the first one to call GLP-1 a neurotransmitter, I think, but I was already way into actually screening these kind of molecules that later then became liraglutide.

No One Else Thought About This [Obesity]

(04:54):

And then I thought, why on earth should we not actually do both things at the same time? If we have an idea that can both work in diabetes in a much safer way than in insulin, and then also at the same time work in obesity. But the reality is that no one else thought about this, or if they thought about it, they didn't really think that it would a good idea. But I think I had the luxury of being in a biotech company, so everyone was working with peptides and proteins. So I don't think I got the same challenge that the other people in the other pharma’s got when they all wanted small molecules.

Eric Topol (05:36):

Well, also just to set the foundation here, which you alluded to, there had been so many attempts to come up with a drug that would work, not just of course in diabetes where there are many classes of drugs, but moreover, to treat the condition of obesity. Actually, I was involved with one of them, Rimonabant and did the large trial, which as you know, led to having to stop the drug, discontinue it because it was associated with suicidal ideation and actual some suicide. So there had been such a long history of checkered inability to come up with a drug. But what was striking is the challenge, and this is one of the first important questions about, when you had the extended half-life of the first GLP-1 drug, that instead of having to take multiple times a day, you could actually, with liraglutide get to a point where you were starting to get to an extended half-life. This is now going back to 1997 with approval in 2010, still 14 years ago. But when you came up with this drug, because this was certainly one of your great contributions, this drug was just a step along the way in this kind of iterative process, wouldn't you say? It wasn't the long half-life and the potency that eventually got us to where we are today. Is that true?

Lotte Bjerre Knudsen (07:15):

Yeah, it was a stepwise process. And what's super interesting about this class of medicines is that they're actually so different. If you talk about a class of medicine where small molecules, they can be different, but they're usually more alike than they're different. And when it comes to this class with these medium-sized peptides, people tried a whole bunch of different things. So they're actually really, really different. Some are simple peptides. So the idea that I came up with was to use this fatty acid isolation principle, and t…

Piezo touch and pressure-sensing ion channels are showing up everywhere as the explanation for physiologic phenomena, both at the macro and micro levels. Ardem Patapoutian, my friend and colleague at Scripps Research, discovered these receptors back in 2010 and was awarded the Nobel Prize in 2021 for his work. As you’ll see/hear from our conversation, the field has exploded. And you’ll get to know Ardem, who is such a fun, charismatic, and down-to-earth person. He also recently got a unique tattoo (videos below) and I wonder (unlikely) if any other Nobel laureates have one related to their discovery?!

Below is a video clip from our conversation. Full videos of all Ground Truths podcasts can be seen on YouTube here. The current one is here. If you like the YouTube format, please subscribe! The audios are also available on Apple and Spotify.

Transcript with links to audio

Eric Topol (00:07):

Well, hello. It's Eric Topol with Ground Truths, and I've really got a special guest today. The first time for the podcast, I've been able to interview a colleague and faculty at Scripps Research, Ardem Patapoutian, who just by the way happens to be the 2021 Nobel Laureate in Physiology or Medicine. So welcome, Ardem. It's so wonderful to have you.

Ardem Patapoutian (00:30):

Thanks so much, Eric. Looking forward to chatting with you.

Eric Topol (00:34):

Well, this has been interesting because although I've known you for several years, I didn't research you. I mean, I had to learn about more than I even do. And of course, one of the great sources of that is on the Nobel Prize website where you tell your whole story. It is quite a story and not to review all of it, but I wanted to go back just before you made the call to move to Los Angeles from Beirut, Lebanon and with the scare that you went through at that time, it seemed like that was just extraordinary that you had to live through that.

Ardem Patapoutian (01:11):

Yeah, so I am of Armenian origin, but I was born in Lebanon and born in 1967, so I was eight years old when the civil war started. So it's a kind of bizarre childhood in the sense that with all the bombs and fighting in Lebanon. So it was tough childhood to have, but it was never personal. It was bombs and such. And so, the event you're talking about is, I happened to be kidnapped while crossing East to West Beirut. They only held me for four or five hours at first asking me questions to see who I am, but I think they pretty soon figured out that I was not a dangerous guy and they ended up letting me go. But before that, that incident really had a huge impact on me so that by the time I got home, I literally said, I'm out of here. I'm going to find a way to leave the country. And so, that's what, very quickly within a few months I packed and came to United States.

Eric Topol (02:19):

And how did you pick LA to be your destination?

Ardem Patapoutian (02:22):

Being from the Armenian community, there's a lot of Armenians in Los Angeles. My cousins already had moved there. They also grew up in Lebanon. And my brother, who's a few years older than me, got admitted to USC graduate school in engineering. So he was going to be there. So it made a lot of sense.

Eric Topol (02:44):

Oh yeah.

Ardem Patapoutian (02:45):

Unlike him, I came with no school or job prospects because it happened so fast that I kind of just left. One year I was at American University of Beirut for one year, but then just left and came here. So worked for a year in various jobs and then started going back to school to UCLA.

Eric Topol (03:07):

Yeah, I saw how there was about a year where you were delivering pizzas and before you got into UCLA, and that must have been an interesting off year, if you will. Well, the story of course, just to fast forward, you did your baccalaureate at UCLA, your PhD at Caltech, postdoc at UCSF, and then you came to Scripps Research 24 years ago along with Pete Schultz, and it's been quite an amazing run that you've had. Now, before we get into PIEZO receptors, the background, maybe you could help me understand, the precursor work seems to be all related to the transient receptor potential (TRP) series, also ion channels. They were of course related to whether it was heat and temperature or somatosensory. How do these channels compare to the ones that you discovered years later?

Background on these Ion Channels

Ardem Patapoutian (04:09):

Yeah, so the somatosensory neurons that innervate your fingertips and everywhere else in your body, their main job is to sense temperature and pressure. And this is very different than any other neuron or any other cell. So when you touch a hot stove that’s burning hot, you need to know about that immediately within milliseconds or something cold. So the opposite side of it is pressure sensing, and it also comes in light touch, which is pleasant or a hammer hitting your finger, which is unpleasant. But all of these have the same characteristic anyway, that is your body has learned at the molecular level to translate a physical stimulus such as temperature and pressure into an electrical signal that neurons use to communicate with each other. But this idea of how you translate physical stimuli into chemical or electrical signal has been a long open question because as you know, most of our cells communicate by chemicals, whether that's hormones or small molecules, we know how that works, receptor bind to ligand, confirmational change and you get a kinase activation and that's enough. But here, how do you sense pressure? How do you sense temperature? It was just, there wasn't much known about that. And that's why our earlier work on TRP channels, which were temperature sensors came before the pressure. And so, they're very related in that sense.

Eric Topol (05:52):

The structure of these, if you were to look at them, do they look pretty similar? What the TRP as you say, and what you did back in the 2010 Science paper, which we'll link to, of course the classic paper where you describe PIEZO1 and PIEZO2, but if you were to look at this structures, would they look pretty similar?

Ardem Patapoutian (06:14):

No, that's a good question. And they absolutely don't. That's why finding these receptors were so hard. So if you go back to other sensory receptors, vision rhodopsin G-protein coupled receptor (GPCRs), larger G-protein coupled receptor look the same. So for example, when it was identified by chemically, that smell also works through G-protein coupled receptor. Richard Axel and Linda Buck, who also won the Nobel Prize, found those receptors by homology to visual GPCRs. The ion channels other than the fact that they crossed the membrane a few times or more, they have nothing else in common. If you looked at their structure, you can't even immediately tell they’re ion channels. So you couldn't find these by structural homology or sequence homology. So you had to do something else. And usually that means functional screens and et cetera.

Eric Topol (07:09):

Well, yeah, and I'm in touch with the screening. We'll get to that and how you dig these up and find them. But the somatosensory ones are really interesting because I don't think a lot of people realize that when you have wasabi or you have Listerine mouthwash and feel the burn and that these are all mediated through these channels, right?

Ardem Patapoutian (07:35):

Yeah. So there's this whole field of chemesthesis, which means senses in your mouth, for example, that are not explained by taste transduction and olfactory. And these are actually by the same somatosensory neurons that help you sense temperature and pressure. And some of these receptors are the same. Their evolution has taken over and used them for many different things. The prime example of this is the capsaicin receptor that David Julius my co-laureate identified, which is also heat receptors. So all languages describe chili peppers as hot, and that's not a coincidence. It actually activates heat activated channel, and that's why we think …

American healthcare is well known for its extreme cost and worst outcomes among industrialized (such as the 38 OECD member) countries, and beyond that to be remarkably opaque. The high cost of prescription drugs contributes, and little has been done to change that except for the government passing the Affordable Insulin Now Act at the end of 2022, enacted in 2023. But in January 2022 Mark Cuban launched Cost Plus Drugs that has transformed how many Americans can get their prescriptions filled at a fraction of the prevailing prices, bypassing pharmacy benefit managers (PBMs) that control 80% of US prescriptions. That was just the beginning of a path of creative destruction (disruptive innovation, after Schumpeter) of many key components American healthcare that Cuban is leading, with Cost Plus Marketplace, Cost Plus Wellness and much more to come. He certainly qualifies as a master disrupter: “someone who is a leader in innovation and is not afraid to challenge the status quo.”

Below is a video clip from our conversation dealing with insurance companies. Full videos of all Ground Truths podcasts can be seen on YouTube here. The current one is here. If you like the YouTube format, please subscribe! The audios are also available on Apple and Spotify.

Transcript with External links to Audio

(00:07):

Hello, it's Eric Topol with Ground Truths, and I have our special phenomenal guest today, Mark Cuban, who I think you know him from his tech world contributions and Dallas Mavericks, and the last few years he's been shaking up healthcare with Cost Plus Drugs. So Mark, welcome.

Mark Cuban (00:25):

Thanks for having me, Eric.

Eric Topol (00:27):

Yeah, I mean, what you're doing, you’ve become a hero to millions of Americans getting them their medications at a fraction of the cost they're used to. And you are really challenging the PBM industry, which I've delved into more than ever, just in prep for our conversation. It's just amazing what this group of companies, namely the three big three CVS Caremark, Optum of UnitedHealth and Express Scripts of Cigna with a market of almost $600 billion this year, what they're doing, how can they get away with all this stuff?

Inner Workings of Pharmacy Benefit Managers

Mark Cuban (01:03):

I mean, they're just doing business. I really don't blame them. I blame the people who contract with them. All the companies, particularly the bigger companies, the self-insured companies, where the CEO really doesn't have an understanding of their healthcare or pharmacy benefits. And so, the big PBMs paid them rebates, which they think is great if you're a CEO, when in reality it's really just a loan against the money spent by your sickest employees, and they just don't understand that. So a big part of my time these days is going to CEOs and sitting with them and explaining to them that you're getting ripped off on both your pharmacy and your healthcare side.

Eric Topol (01:47):

Yeah, it's amazing to me the many ways that they get away with this. I mean, they make companies sign NDAs. They're addicted to rebates. They have all sorts of ways a channel of funds to themselves. I mean, all the things you could think of whereby they even have these GPOs. Each of these companies has a group purchasing organization (I summarized in the Table below).

Mark Cuban (02:12):

Yeah, which gives them, it's crazy because with those GPOs. The GPO does the deal with the pharmacy manufacturer. Then the GPO also does the deal with the PBM, and then the PBM goes to the self-insured employer in particular and says, hey, we're going to pass through all the rebates. But what they don't say is they've already skimmed off 5%, 10%, 20% or more off the top through their GPO. But that's not even the worst of it. That's just money, right? I mean, that's important, but I mean, even the biggest companies rarely own their own claims data.

Mark Cuban (02:45):

Now think about what that means. It means you can't get smarter about the wellness of your employees and their families. You want to figure out the best way to do GLP-1s and figure out how to reduce diabetes, whatever it may be. You don't have that claims data. And then they don't allow the companies to control their own formularies. So we've seen Humira biosimilars come out and the big PBMs have done their own version of the biosimilar where we have a product called Yusimry, which is only $594 a month, which is cheaper than the cheapest biosimilar that the big three are selling. And so, you would think in a normal relationship, they would want to bring on this new product to help the employer. No, they won't do it. If the employer asks, can I just add Cost Plus Drugs to my network? They'll say no, every single time.

Mark Cuban (03:45):

Their job is not to save the employer money, particularly after they've given a rebate. Because once they give that loan, that rebate to the employer, they need to get that money back. It's not a gift. It's a loan and they need to have the rebates, and we don't do rebates with them at all. And I can go down the list. They don't control the formula. They don't control, you mentioned the NDAs. They can't talk to manufacturers, so they can't go to Novo or to Lilly and say, let's put together a GLP-1 wellness program. All these different things that just are common sense. It's not happening. And so, the good news is when I walk into these companies that self-insured and talk to the CEO or CFO, I'm not asking them to do something that's not in their best interest or not in the best interest of the lives they cover. I'm saying, we can save you money and you can improve the wellness of your employees and their families. Where's the downside?

Eric Topol (04:40):

Oh, yeah. Yeah. And the reason they can't see the claims is because of the privacy issues?

Mark Cuban (04:46):

No, no. That's just a business decision in the contract that the PBMs have made. You can go and ask. I mean, you have every right to your own claims. You don't need to have it personally identified. You want to find out how many people have GLP-1s or what are the trends, or God forbid there's another Purdue Pharma thing going on, and someone prescribing lots of opioids. You want to be able to see those things, but they won't do it. And that's only on the sponsor side. It's almost as bad if not worse on the manufacturer side.

Eric Topol (05:20):

Oh, yeah. Well, some of the work of PBMs that you've been talking about were well chronicled in the New York Times, a couple of major articles by Reed Abelson and Rebecca Robbins: The Opaque Industry Secretly Inflating Prices for Prescription Drugs and The Powerful Companies Driving Local Drugstores Out of Business. We'll link those because I think some people are not aware of all the things that are going on in the background.

Mark Cuban (05:39):

You see in their study and what they reported on the big PBMs, it's crazy the way it works. And literally if there was transparency, like Cost Plus offers, the cost of medications across the country could come down 20%, 30% or more.

Cost Plus Drugs

Eric Topol (05:55):

Oh, I mean, it is amazing, really. And now let's get into Cost Plus. I know that a radiologist, Alex Oshmyansky contacted you with a cold email a little over three years ago, and you formed Cost Plus Drugs on the basis of that, right?

Mark Cuban (06:12):

Yep, that's exactly what happened.

Eric Topol (06:15):

I give you credit for responding to cold emails and coming up with a brilliant idea with this and getting behind it and putting your name behind it. And what you've done, so you started out with something like 110 generics and now you're up well over 1,200 or 2,500 or something like that?

Mark Cuban (06:30):

And adding brands. And so, started with 111. Now we're around 2,500 and trying to grow it every single day. And not only that, just to give people an overview. When you go to www.costplusdrugs.com and you put in the name of your medication, let's just say it's tadalafil, and if it comes up. In this ca…

A leader for conducting rigorous randomized trials of humans along with animal models for understanding nutrition and metabolism, Dr. Kevin Hall is a Senior Investigator at the National Institutes of Health, and Section Chief of the Integrative Physiology Section, NIDDK. In this podcast, we reviewed his prolific body of research a recent publications. The timing of optimizing our diet and nutrition seems apropos, now that we’re in in the midst of the holiday season!

Below is a video snippet of our conversation on his ultra-processed food randomized trial.

Full videos of all Ground Truths podcasts can be seen on YouTube here. The current one is here. If you like the YouTube format, please subscribe! The audios are also available on Apple and Spotify.

Note: I’ll be doing a Ground Truths Live Chat on December 11th at 12 N EST, 9 AM PST, so please mark your calendar and join!

Transcript with links to publications and audio

Eric Topol (00:05):

Well, hello. This is Eric Topol with Ground Truths, and I'm really delighted to have with me today, Dr. Kevin Hall from the NIH. I think everybody knows that nutrition is so important and Kevin is a leader in doing rigorous randomized trials, which is not like what we usually see with large epidemiologic studies of nutrition that rely on food diaries and the memory of participants. So Kevin, it's really terrific to have you here.

Kevin Hall (00:34):

Thanks so much for the invitation.

Ultra-Processed Foods

Eric Topol (00:36):

Yeah. Well, you've been prolific and certainly one of the leaders in nutrition science who I look to. And what I thought we could do is go through some of your seminal papers. There are many, but I picked a few and I thought we'd first go back to the one that you published in Cell Metabolism. This is ultra-processed diets cause excessive caloric intake and weight gain. (Main results in graph below.) So maybe you can take us through the principle findings from that trial.

Kevin Hall (01:10):

Yeah, sure. So that was a really interesting study because it's the first randomized control trial that's investigated the role of ultra-processed foods in potentially causing obesity. So we've got, as you mentioned, lots and lots of epidemiological data that have made these associations between people who consume diets that are very high in ultra-processed foods as having greater risk for obesity. But those trials are not demonstrating causation. I mean, they suggest a strong link. And in fact, the idea of ultra-processed foods is kind of a new idea. It's really sort of appeared on the nutrition science stage probably most prominently in the past 10 years or so. And I first learned about this idea of ultra-processed foods, which is really kind of antithetical to the way most nutrition scientists think about foods. We often think about foods as nutrient delivery vehicles, and we kind of view foods as being the fraction of carbohydrates versus fats in them or how much sodium or fiber is in the foods.

Kevin Hall (02:17):

And along came this group in Brazil who introduced this new way of classifying foods that completely ignores the nutrient composition and says what we should be doing is classifying foods based on the extent and purpose of processing of foods. And so, they categorize these four different categories. And in the fourth category of this so-called NOVA classification scheme (see graphic below) , they identified something called ultra-processed foods. There's a long formal definition and it's evolved a little bit over the years and continues to evolve. But the basic ideas that these are foods that are manufactured by industries that contain a lot of purified ingredients made from relatively cheap agricultural commodity products that basically undergo a variety of processes and include additives and ingredients that are not typically found in home kitchens, but are typically exclusively in manufactured products to create the wide variety of mostly packaged goods that we see in our supermarkets.

Kevin Hall (03:22):

And so, I was really skeptical that there was much more about the effects of these foods. Other than that they typically have high amounts of sugar and saturated fat and salt, and they're pretty low in fiber. And so, the purpose of this study was to say, okay, well if there's something more about the foods themselves that is causing people to overconsume calories and gain weight and eventually get obesity, then we should do a study that's trying to test for two diets that are matched for these various nutrients of concern. So they should be matched for the macronutrients, they should be matched for the sugar content, the fat, the sodium, the fiber, and people should just be allowed to eat whatever they want and they shouldn't be trying to change their weight in any way. And so, the way that we did this was, as you mentioned, we can't just ask people to report what they're eating.

Kevin Hall (04:19):

So what we did was we admitted these folks to the NIH Clinical Center and to our metabolic ward, and it's a very artificial environment, but it's an environment that we can control very carefully. And so, what we basically did is take control over their food environment and we gave them three meals a day and snacks, and basically for a two-week period, they had access to meals that were more than 80% of calories coming from ultra-processed foods. And then in random order, they either received that diet first and give them simple instructions, eat as much as little as you want. We're going to measure lots of stuff. You shouldn't be trying to change your weight or weight that gave them a diet that had no calories from ultra-processed foods. In fact, 80% from minimally processed foods. But again, both of these two sort of food environments were matched for these nutrients that we typically think of as playing a major role in how many calories people choose to eat.

Kevin Hall (05:13):

And so, the basic idea was, okay, well let's measure what these folks eat. We gave them more than double the calories that they would require to maintain their weight, and what they didn't know was that in the basement of the clinical center where the metabolic kitchen is, we had all of our really talented nutrition staff measuring the leftovers to see what it was that they didn't eat. So we knew exactly what we provided to them and all the foods had to be in our nutrition database and when we compute what they actually ate by difference, so we have a very precise estimate about not only what foods they chose to ate, but also how many calories they chose to eat, as well as the nutrient composition.

And the main upshot of all that was that when these folks were exposed to this highly ultra-processed food environment, they spontaneously chose to eat about 500 calories per day more over the two-week period they were in that environment then when the same folks were in the environment that had no ultra-processed foods, but just minimally processed foods. They not surprisingly gained weight during the ultra-processed food environment and lost weight and lost body fat during the minimally processed food environment. And because those diets were overall matched for these different nutrients, it didn't seem to be that those were the things that were driving this big effect. So I think there's a couple of big take homes here. One is that the food environment really does have a profound effect on just the biology of how our food intake is controlled at least over relatively short periods of time, like the two-week periods that we were looking at. And secondly, that there's something about ultra-processed foods that seem to be driving this excess calorie intake that we now know has been linked with increased risk of obesity, and now we're starting to put some of the causal pieces together that really there might be something in this ultra-processed food environment that's driving the increased rates of obesity that we've seen over the past many de…