Ground Truths

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Transcript with audio and external links

Eric Topol (00:05):

Hello, it's Eric Topol with Ground Truths, and I am really thrilled to have with me Professor Faisal Mahmood, who is lighting it up in the field of pathology with AI. He is on the faculty at Harvard Medical School, also a pathologist at Mass General Brigham and with the Broad Institute, and he has been publishing at a pace that I just can't believe we're going to review that in chronological order. So welcome, Faisal.

Faisal Mahmood (00:37):

Thanks so much for having me, Eric. I do want to mention I'm not a pathologist. My background is in biomedical imaging and computer science. But yeah, I work very closely with pathologists, both at Mass General and at the Brigham.

Eric Topol (00:51):

Okay. Well, you know so much about pathology. I just assume that you were actually, but you are taking computational biology to new levels and you're in the pathology department at Harvard, I take it, right?

Faisal Mahmood (01:08):

Yeah, I'm at the pathology department at Mass General Brigham. So the two hospitals are now integrated, so I'm at the joint department.

Eric Topol (01:19):

Good. Okay. Well, I'm glad to clarify that because as far as I knew you were hardcore pathologist, so you're changing the field in a way that is quite unique, I should say, because a number of years ago, deep learning was starting to get applied to pathology just like it was and radiology and ophthalmology. And we saw some early studies with deep learning whereby you could find so much more on a slide that otherwise would be not even looked at or considered or even that humans wouldn't be able to see. So maybe you could just take us back first to the deep learning phase before these foundation models that you've been building, just to give us a flavor for what was the warmup in this field?

Faisal Mahmood (02:13):

Yeah, so I think around 2016 and 2017, it was very clear to the computer vision community that deep learning was really the state of the art where you could have abstract feature representations that were rich enough to solve some of these fundamental classification problems in conventional vision. And that's around the time when deep learning started to be applied to everything in medicine, including pathology. So we saw some earlier cities in 2016 and 2017, mostly in machine learning conferences, applying this to very basic patch level pathology dataset. So then in 2018 and 2019, there were some studies in major journals including in Nature Medicine, showing that you could take large amounts of pathology data and classify what's known to us and including predicting what's now commonly referred to as non-human identifiable features where you could take a label and this could come from molecular data, other kinds of data like treatment response and so forth, and use that label to classify these images as responders versus non-responders or having a certain kind of mutation or not.

(03:34):

And what that does is that if there is a morphologic signal within the image, it would pick up on that morphologic signal even though humans may not have picked up on it. So it was a very exciting time of developing all of these supervised, supervised foundation models. And then I started working in this area around 2019, and one of the first studies we did was to try to see if we can make this a little bit more data efficient. And that's the CLAM method that we published in 2021. And then we took that method and applied it to the problem of cancers of unknown primary, that was also in 2021.

Eric Topol (04:17):

So just to review, in the phase of deep learning, which was largely we're talking about supervised with ground truth images, there already was a sign that you could pick up things like the driver mutation, the prognosis of the patient from the slide, you could structural variations, the origin of the tumor, things that would never have been conceived as a pathologist. Now with that, I guess the question is, was all this confined to whole slide imaging or could you somehow take an H&E slide conventional slide and be able to do these things without having to have a whole slide image?

Faisal Mahmood (05:05):

So at the time, most of the work was done on slides that were fully digital. So taking a slide and then digitizing the image and creating a whole slide image. But we did show in 2021 that you could put the slide under a microscope and then just capture it with a camera or just with a cell phone coupled to a camera, and then still make those predictions. So these models were quite robust to that kind of domain adaptation. And still I think that even today the slide digitization rate in the US remains at around 4%, and the standard of care is just looking at a glass light under a microscope. So it's very important to see how we can further democratize these models by just using the microscope, because most microscopes that pathologists use do have a camera attached to them. So can we somehow leverage that camera to just use a model that might be trained on a whole slide image, still work with the slide under a microscope?

Eric Topol (06:12):

Well, what you just said is actually a profound point that is only 4% of the slides are being reviewed digitally, and that means that we're still an old pathology era without the enlightenment of machine eyes. I mean these digital eyes that can be trained even without supervised learning as we'll get to see things that we'll never see. And to make, and I know we'll be recalling back in 2022, you and I wrote a Lancet piece about the work that you had done, which is very exciting with cardiac biopsies to detect whether a heart transplant was a rejection. This is a matter of life or death because you have to give more immunosuppression drugs if it's a rejection. But if you do that and it's not a rejection or you miss it, and there's lots of disagreement among pathologists, cardiac pathologists, regarding whether there's a transplant. So you had done some early work back then, and because much of what we're going to talk about, I think relates more to cancer, but it's across the board in pathology. Can you talk about the inner observer variability of pathologists when they look at regular slides?

Faisal Mahmood (07:36):

Yeah. So when I first started working in this field, my kind of thinking was that the slide digitization rate is very low. So how do we get people to embrace and adapt digital pathology and machine learning models that are trained on digital data if the data is not routinely digitized? So one of my kind of line of thinking was that if we focus on problems that are inherently so difficult that there isn't a good solution for them currently, and machine learning provides, or deep learning provides a tangible solution, people will be kind of forced to use these models. So along those lines, we started focusing on the cancers of unknown primary problem and the myocardial biopsy problem. So we know that the Cohen’s kappa or the intra-observer variability that also takes into account agreement by chance is around 0.22. So it's very, very low for endomyocardial biopsies. So that just means that there are a large number of patients who have a diagnosis that other pathologists might not agree with, and the downstream treatment regimen that's given is entirely based on that diagnosis. The same patient being diagnosed by a different cardiac pathologist could be receiving a very different regimen and could have a very, very different outcome.

(09:14):

So the goal for that study is published in Nature of Medicine in 2022, was to see if we could use deep learning to standardize that and have it act as an assistive tool for cardiac pathologists and whether they give more standardized responses when they're given …

Recently, a series of papers were published in Nature and Nature journals illuminating the physiologic effects of exercise from an NIH initiative called MoTrPAC. To understand the wealth of new findings, I spoke with Professor Euan Ashley, who, along with Matt Wheeler, heads up the bioinformatics center.

Earlier this week, Stanford announced Euan Ashley will be the new Chair of the Department of Medicine. He has done groundbreaking work in human genomics, including rapid whole genome sequencing for critically ill patients and applying the technology for people with unknown diseases. A few years ago he published The Genome Odyssey book. As you’ll see from our conversation, he has also done extensive work on the science of exercise.

Video snippet from our conversation. Full videos of all Ground Truths podcasts can be seen on YouTube here. The audios are also available on Apple and Spotify.

Transcript with audio and external links

Eric Topol (00:06):

Well, hello, it's Eric Topol with Ground Truths, and I'm really delighted today to welcome my friend, Euan Ashley. He is the Roger and Joelle Burnell Chair of Genomics and Precision Health at Stanford. He's done pioneering work in genomics, but today we're going to talk about something very different, which he also is working in exercise. Exercise the cover of a Nature paper in May regarding this MoTrPAC, which we're going to talk about this big initiative to understand the benefits of exercise. But before I hand it over to Euan, and I just want to mention his description of the paper that he posted to summarize started with, “Exercise may be the single most potent medical intervention ever known.” So Euan welcome.

Euan Ashley (01:01):

Yeah, well, great. It's wonderful to be here, Eric, and so nice to see you.

Eric Topol (01:06):

Yeah. Well, we have a lot to talk about because exercise is a fascinating topic. And I guess maybe we'd start with the MoTrPAC, which is an interesting acronym that you all came up with. Maybe tell us a bit about that with the 800 rats and the 2,400 people and the 17,000 molecules, there’s a lot there.

Euan Ashley (01:24):

Right, right. Yeah. Well, first of all, of course, before you do any scientific study, especially with a large number of people in a consortium, you need a good acronym. So that was where we started with the idea was to focus on the molecular transducers of physical activity. As you pointed out there at the beginning, we really don’t have a more potent medical intervention, especially for prevention of disease. I mean, it’s just such a powerful thing that we have, and yet we don’t really understand how it works. And so, the MoTrPAC Consortium was designed to really work together, bring groups of people across the US together who all have some interest in exercise and some ability to measure molecules and really put together the world's largest study of exercise to try and start answering some of the questions about where the potency of this intervention come from.

Eric Topol (02:20):

So the first crop of papers, and there were several of them that came out all on the same day in Nature publications, was about the rats. The people part is incubating, but can you give us a skinny on, there was a lot there, but maybe you could just summarize what you thought were the main findings.

Key MoTrPAC Findings

Euan Ashley (02:43):

Yeah, of course, of course. And the MoTrPAC Consortium, I'll say first of all, yeah, large group is probably I think 36 principal investigators funded by the Common Fund. And so, it brings together large numbers of people, some of whom who spend most of their time thinking about let’s say animal exercise. Some have spent a lot of time thinking about humans in exercise and many of whom think about measuring technologies. And as you say, these first group of papers were focused on the rat study, but actually the study goes much more broadly than that. But of course, there are some advantages to the animal protocols. We can look at tissue and we'll talk about that in a moment. But the humans, of course, are where we're most interested in the end. And we do have tissues coming from humans blood and adipose tissue and skeletal muscle, but those are obviously the only organs we can really access.

(03:31):

So there's a rat study, which is this one we'll talk about, and that's aerobic exercise and training. There's human studies that include aerobic exercise, strengths studies as well. There's a study in kids, pediatric study and then also a study of people who are very fit because here we're focusing on the change from sedentary to fit. And so that gives us the key exercise signal. So this first crop of papers was really our first look, cross-tissue, cross multi-omics, so multiple different modalities of measurement. And I think, yeah, we were like about nine and a half thousand assays, 19 tissues, 25 different measurement platforms, and then four training points for these rats. So let's talk about the rats for a minute. What do they do? So they normally live at night. They're active at night. In this study, we reverse that so that we can actually do the studies during the day.

(04:25):

So we reverse their at night cycle and they do their treadmill exercise over the course of several weeks. They start with about 20 minutes, and they do more every day. There's a control group of rats that just get placed on the treadmill and then don't do any exercise. And so, this is a controlled study as well. And over the course of time, we work more, it's about eight weeks in total and then two days after each of those bouts of exercise. So it's not an acute study, we measure to see where we are. So we also have this time trajectory of exercise. So what did we find? I mean, I think the first thing I would say, we talked about just how potent exercise is. It's very, very clear from looking at all these tissues that when you exercise regularly, you are just a different person, or in this case a different rat.

(05:15):

Like literally every tissue is changed dramatically and some in quite surprising ways. So I give you a couple of the things that surprised me or that I thought were most interesting. The first thing was this question of how does exercise actually work? Because exercise is a stress. You go out and you pound the pavement or you're on the bike or whatever, and then your body recovers. And so, there's been this idea, it's referred to as hormesis, this idea that some of the benefit of exercise might come from this recurrent stress. So your body learns how to deal with stress. And so given that we were very interested that this heat shock response was so prominent across multiple tissues. So heat shock proteins are molecular chaperones and they take care of protein folding to make sure it's appropriately done and they prevent protein aggregation. And when proteins need degraded because they're damaged, the heat shock system jumps in.

(06:10):

So perhaps not surprising, but pretty interesting that the heat shock proteins were very prominent part of the stress response to exercise. And remember, this is not acute exercise, so these are benefits that are built up over time, so that was one. A surprising one to me, the adrenal gland. So we're used to thinking of adrenaline as an epinephrine, as a stress hormone, but actually we saw dramatic changes in the adrenal gland and we don't necessarily think too much. You think about the exercising muscles, you think about the heart, we think about the lungs, when we think about exercise, you don't necessarily think that you're changing your adrenal gland, but it was one of the most changed tissues. The immune system was a common upregulated system. We saw that. And in fact, some of the tissues in which the immune genes were most changed were somewhat surprising.

(07:02):

So the small intestine, for example, was a place where there was a highest enrichment of immune mediated pathways. And then some tissues changed pretty early, like the small inte…

A book that reads like a novel; it’s humorous, it’s a love story. Dr. Christopher Labos, an imaginative cardiologist and epidemiologist at McGill University, takes us through multiple longstanding misconceptions about different foods and drinks, and along the way provides outstanding educational value.

Video snippet from our conversation. Full videos of all Ground Truths podcasts can be seen on YouTube here. The audios are also available on Apple and Spotify.

Transcript with external links and links to the audio recording

Eric Topol (00:07):

Hello, it's Eric Topol with Ground Truths, and with me today is a cardiologist, Chris Labos from Montreal, who has written an extraordinary book. I just read it on my Kindle, “Does Coffee Cause Cancer? And 8 More Myths about the Food We Eat. Chris teaches at McGill University. He is a prolific writer at the Montreal Gazette and Canadian broadcast system, CBC, CJAD radio, CTV News. And he also has a podcast on the Body of Evidence and he probably has other stuff, but welcome Chris.

Christopher Labos (00:49):

Hello. Hello. Hello. Thank you for having me. It is a great honor to be on your podcast. I am in awe of the work that you've been doing, I mean, for all your career, but especially during Covid. So it's a big thrill for me to be on the podcast.

Eric Topol (01:03):

Well, for me, I have to say I learned about a person who is not only remarkably imaginative but also humorous. And so, have you ever done standup comedy?

Christopher Labos (01:16):

I have not. Although I was asked to chair the research awards that we did here at McGill one year because I've been doing local media stuff and they said, can you come and be like the MC? And I said, sure. And I said, do you want me to be funny? And they were like, well, if you can. And I went up there and people were laughing and laughing and laughing and then people, like some of my former attendings had come up to me and they're like, Chris, I don't remember you being this funny as a resident. And I was like, well, I guess you come into your own when you start your own career. But I think people were very, it's tough MCing a research awards because you're essentially, it's kind of like a high school graduation where you don't read the names in alphabetical order, right? It's like one name after the other. And I went up there and I tried to throw in a little bit of humor and people seem to like it. So I think that was the first, that was when I started to realize, oh, if you inject a little bit of levity into what you're doing, it tends to resonate a little bit more with people.

Eric Topol (02:13):

Well, no question about that. And what I love about this book is that it wasn't anything like I thought it was going to be.

Eric Topol (02:21):

Amazing. It was a surprise. So basically you took these nine myths, which we'll talk to, hopefully we'll get to several of them, but you didn't just get into that myth. You get into teaching medical statistics, how to read papers, all the myths. I mean, you are the master debunker with entertainment, with funny stuff. It's really great. So this is great, before we get into some of these myths and for you to amplify, but this is a gift of communication, science communication that is you get people to learn about things like p-hacking and you throw in love stories and all kinds of stuff. I mean, I don't know how you can dream this stuff up. I really don't.

Christopher Labos (03:10):

I sort of look back at the inception of this. This book did have sort of a few iterations. And I think the first time I was thinking about it, I mean I wrote it during Covid and so I was really thinking about this type of stuff. It's like how do we educate the public to become better consumers of scientific information? Because there was a lot of nonsense during Covid. So teaching them about confounding, which I think through a lot of people when we started talking about low vitamin D levels and Covid and outcomes and all that. And so, I started like, how do I write this type of book? And I thought, yeah, this should probably be a serious science book. And the first version of it was a very serious science book. And then the idea came and try to make it a conversation. And I think I sort of wrote it.

(04:02):

There's a book that may not be that popular in the US but it was kind of popular here in Canada. It was called The Wealthy Barber. And it was all about personal finance. And the idea of the book was these people would go into a barbershop and the barber would talk to them about how to save money and how to invest in all that. And it was fairly popular and people liked that back and forth. And I said, oh, maybe I could do something like that. And then I wrote the first chapter of the doctor who goes in to talk to the barista and I showed it to a friend of mine. I said, what do you think? Do you think this would work? And her response to me by email was two lines. It was pretty good period. But I kept expecting him to ask her out at the end. And the minute she said that I thought, oh my God, this is a love story. And so, I reshaped everything to make this a love story. And I don't think the publishers were expecting that either because they were like, the first comment from the editor was, most science books don't have a narrative arc to them in character, but this one does. So there you go.

Eric Topol (05:00):

This is a unique book. I hope that people who listen or read the transcript will realize that this is a gift. It's a model of communication and it just is teaching things almost like you don't realize it. You're just learning all this stuff. So let's get into some of these because they're just masterful. I guess I should start ask you, you have nine of them. You could have picked 20 more, but which one is your favorite? Or do you have one?

Christopher Labos (05:31):

I think the one, it's hard to say. I think the first one in the book is the vitamin C one. And I think it's the most interesting one to explain to people, not just because vitamin C to fight the common cold is so pervasive as a product and a thing that people believe. But it also, I think has the greatest opportunity to teach people about what is one of the most important ones, which is subgroup analysis and p-hacking. And it's so easy to bring that back into a comedic level with some of the graphs that I put in there. I think a close second would probably be the coffee one where I was talking about selection bias, because those examples of online dating and then all the jokes that came from it. And it's hard to say how much of it was the subject and how much of it was the character.

(06:21):

Because I'd always heard stories of authors when they say like, oh, the characters will tell me what to say. And I always thought that sounds like bollocks. How could that be possible? You're the author, you write what's on the page. But then the minute I started actually writing it and started envisaging these characters, all of a sudden the characters took on a life of their own and they were dictating how the story ended up. So the coffee one I think is also good too. And I guess it became the title of the book. So I guess that's a good indication that was popular. But when you can really spin it out and make it obvious to people using common examples, I think those are interesting ones. So the vitamin C and the coffee ones, I think were probably the most interesting.

Eric Topol (07:02):

Let's take those first because you've mentioned them and then hopefully we'll get into some others. Now in the vitamin C, you're going on a plane and you hook up with this guy, Jim, on the plane. I know none of this stuff really happened, and you're explaining to him the famous ISIS-2 trial about the Gemini and Libra subgroup. So for those of people who are listening, can you review that? Because that of course is just one of so many things you get into.

Christopher Labos (07:33):

I know it's almost amazing how short a memory we have in …

The most enthralling conversation I’ve ever had with anyone on cancer.

It’s with Charlie Swanton who is a senior group leader at the Francis Crick Institute, the Royal Society Napier Professor in Cancer and medical oncologist at University College London, co-director of Cancer Research UK.

Video snippet from our conversation. Full videos of all Ground Truths podcasts can be seen on YouTube here. The audios are also available on Apple and Spotify.

Transcript with audio links and many external links

Eric Topol (00:07):

Well, hello, this is Eric Topol with Ground Truths, and I am really fortunate today to connect us with Charlie Swanton, who is if not the most prolific researcher in the space of oncology and medicine, and he's right up there. Charlie is a physician scientist who is an oncologist at Francis Crick and he heads up the lung cancer area there. So Charlie, welcome.

Charles Swanton (00:40):

Thank you, Eric. Nice to meet you.

Learning from a Failure

Eric Topol (00:43):

Well, it really is a treat because I've been reading your papers and they're diverse. They're not just on cancer. Could be connecting things like air pollution, it could be Covid, it could be AI, all sorts of things. And it's really quite extraordinary. So I thought I'd start out with a really interesting short paper you wrote towards the end of last year to give a sense about you. It was called Turning a failing PhD around. And that's good because it's kind of historical anchoring. Before we get into some of your latest contributions, maybe can you tell us about that story about what you went through with your PhD?

Charles Swanton (01:26):

Yeah, well thank you, Eric. I got into research quite early. I did what you in the US would call the MD PhD program. So in my twenties I started a PhD in a molecular biology lab at what was then called the Imperial Cancer Research Fund, which was the sort of the mecca for DNA tumor viruses, if you like. It was really the place to go if you wanted to study how DNA tumor viruses worked, and many of the components of the cell cycle were discovered there in the 80s and 90s. Of course, Paul Nurse was the director of the institute at the time who discovered cdc2, the archetypal regulator of the cell cycle that led to his Nobel Prize. So it was a very exciting place to work, but my PhD wasn't going terribly well. And sort of 18, 19 months into my PhD, I was summoned for my midterm reports and it was not materializing rapidly enough.

(02:25):

And I sat down with my graduate student supervisors who were very kind, very generous, but basically said, Charlie, this isn't going well, is it? You've got two choices. You can either go back to medical school or change PhD projects. What do you want to do? And I said, well, I can't go back to medical school because I’m now two years behind. So instead I think what I'll do is I'll change PhD projects. And they asked me what I'd like to do. And back then we didn't know how p21, the CDK inhibitor bound to cyclin D, and I said, that's what I want to understand how these proteins interact biochemically. And they said, how are you going to do that? And I said, I'm not too sure, but maybe we'll try yeast two-hybrid screen and a mutagenesis screen. And that didn't work either. And in the end, something remarkable happened.

(03:14):

My PhD boss, Nic Jones, who's a great guy, still is, retired though now, but a phenomenal scientist. He put me in touch with a colleague who actually works next door to me now at the Francis Crick Institute called Neil McDonald, a structural biologist. And they had just solved, well, the community had just solved the structure. Pavletich just solved the structure of cyclin A CDK2. And so, Neil could show me this beautiful image of the crystal structure in 3D of cyclin A, and we could mirror cyclin D onto it and find the surface residue. So I spent the whole of my summer holiday mutating every surface exposed acid on cyclin D to an alanine until I found one that failed to interact with p21, but could still bind the CDK. And that little breakthrough, very little breakthrough led to this discovery that I had where the viral cyclins encoded by Kaposi sarcoma herpes virus, very similar to cyclin D, except in this one region that I had found interactive with a CDK inhibitor protein p21.

(04:17):

And so, I asked my boss, what do you think about the possibility this cyclin could have evolved from cyclin D but now mutated its surface residues in a specific area so that it can't be inhibited by any of the control proteins in the mammalian cell cycle? He said, it's a great idea, Charlie, give it a shot. And it worked. And then six months later, we got a Nature paper. And that for me was like, I cannot tell you how exciting, not the Nature paper so much as the discovery that you were the first person in the world to ever see this beautiful aspect of evolutionary biology at play and how this cyclin had adapted to just drive the cell cycle without being inhibited. For me, just, I mean, it was like a dream come true, and I never experienced anything like it before, and I guess it's sizes the equivalent to me of a class A drug. You get such a buzz out of it and over the years you sort of long for that to happen again. And occasionally it does, and it's just a wonderful profession.

Eric Topol (05:20):

Well, I thought that it was such a great story because here you were about to fail. I mean literally fail, and you really were able to turn it around and it should give hope to everybody working in science out there that they could just be right around the corner from a significant discovery.

Charles Swanton (05:36):

I think what doesn't break you makes you stronger. You just got to plow on if you love it enough, you'll find a way forward eventually, I hope.

Tracing the Evolution of Cancer (TRACERx)

Eric Topol (05:44):

Yeah, no question about that. Now, some of your recent contributions, I mean, it's just amazing to me. I just try to keep up with the literature just keeping up with you.

Charles Swanton (05:58):

Eric, it's sweet of you. The first thing to say is it's not just me. This is a big community of lung cancer researchers we have thanks to Cancer Research UK funded around TRACERx and the lung cancer center. Every one of my papers has three corresponding authors, multiple co-first authors that all contribute in this multidisciplinary team to the sort of series of small incremental discoveries. And it's absolutely not just me. I've got an amazing team of scientists who I work with and learn from, so it's sweet to give me the credit.

Eric Topol (06:30):

I think what you're saying is really important. It is a team, but I think what I see through it all is that you're an inspiration to the team. You pull people together from all over the world on these projects and it's pretty extraordinary, so that's what I would say.

Charles Swanton (06:49):

The lung community, Eric, the lung cancer community is just unbelievably conducive to collaboration and advancing understanding of the disease together. It's just such a privilege to be working in this field. I know that sounds terribly corny, but it is true. I don't think I recall a single email to anybody where I've asked if we can collaborate where they've said, no, everybody wants to help. Everybody wants to work together on this challenge. It's just such an amazing field to be working in.

Eric Topol (07:19):

Yeah. Well I was going to ask you about that. And of course you could have restricted your efforts or focused on different cancers. What made you land in lung cancer? Not that that's only part of what you're working on, but that being the main thing, what drew you to that area?

Charles Swanton (07:39):

So I think the answer to your question is back in 2008 when I was looking for a niche, back then it was lung cancer was just on the brink of becoming an exciting place to work, but back then nobody wanted to work in that field. So there was a chair position in thoracic oncology and precision m…

In this podcast, Thomas Czech, Distinguished Professor at the University of Colorado, Boulder, with a lineage of remarkable contributions on RNA, ribozyme, and telomeres, discuss why RNA is so incredibly versatile.

Video snippet from our conversation. Full videos of all Ground Truths podcasts can be seen on YouTube here. The audios are also available on Apple and Spotify.

Transcript with links to the audio and external links

Eric Topol (00:07):

Well, hello, this is Eric Topol from Ground Truths, and it's really a delight for me to welcome Tom Cech who just wrote a book, the Catalyst, and who is a Nobel laureate for his work in RNA. And is at the University of Colorado Boulder as an extraordinary chemist and welcome Tom.

Tom Cech (00:32):

Eric, I'm really pleased to be here.

The RNA Guy

Eric Topol (00:35):

Well, I just thoroughly enjoyed your book, and I wanted to start out, if I could, with a quote, which gets us right off the story here, and let me just get to it here. You say, “the DNA guy would need to become an RNA guy. Though I didn’t realize it at the time, jumping ship would turn out to be the most momentous decision in my life.” Can you elaborate a bit on that?

Tom Cech (01:09):

As a graduate student at Berkeley, I was studying DNA and chromosomes. I thought that DNA was king and really somewhat belittled the people in the lab next door who were working on RNA, I thought it was real sort of second fiddle material. Of course, when RNA is acting just as a message, which is an important function, a critical function in all life on earth, but still, it's a function that's subservient to DNA. It's just copying the message that's already written in the playbook of DNA. But little did I know that the wonders of RNA were going to excite me and really the whole world in unimaginable ways.

Eric Topol (02:00):

Well, they sure have, and you've lit up the world well before you had your Nobel Prize in 1989 was Sid Altman with ribozyme. And I think one of the things that struck me, which are so compelling in the book as I think people might know, it's divided in two sections. The first is much more on the biology, and the second is much more on the applications and how it's changing the world. We'll get into it particularly in medicine, but the interesting differentiation from DNA, which is the one trick pony, as you said, all it does is store stuff. And then the incredible versatility of RNA as you discovered as a catalyst, that challenging dogma, that proteins are supposed to be the only enzymes. And here you found RNA was one, but also so much more with respect to genome editing and what we're going to get into here. So I thought what we might get into is the fact that you kind of went into the scum of the pond with this organism, which by the way, you make a great case for the importance of basic science towards the end of the book. But can you tell us about how you, and then of course, many others got into the Tetrahymena thermophila, which I don't know that much about that organism.

Tom Cech (03:34):

Yeah, it's related to Tetrahymena is related to paramecium, which is probably more commonly known because it's an even larger single celled animal. And therefore, in an inexpensive grade school microscope, kids can look through and see these ciliated protozoa swimming around on a glass slide. But I first learned about them when I was a postdoc at MIT and I would drive down to Joe Gall's lab at Yale University where Liz Blackburn was a postdoc at the time, and they were all studying Tetrahymena. It has the remarkable feature that it has 10,000 identical copies of a particular gene and for a higher organism, one that has its DNA in the nucleus and does its protein synthesis in the cytoplasm. Typically, each gene's present in two copies, one from mom, one from dad. And if you're a biochemist, which I am having lots of stuff is a real advantage. So 10,000 copies of a particular gene pumping out RNA copies all the time was a huge experimental advantage. And that's what I started working on when I started my own lab at Boulder.

Eric Topol (04:59):

Well, and that's where, I guess the title of the book, the Catalyst ultimately, that grew into your discovery, right?

Tom Cech (05:08):

Well, at one level, yes, but I also think that the catalyst in a more general conversational sense means just facilitating life in this case. So RNA does much more than just serve as a biocatalyst or a message, and we'll get into that with genome editing and with telomerase as well.

The Big Bang and 11 Nobel Prizes on RNA since 2000

Eric Topol (05:32):

Yes, and I should note that as you did early in the book, that there's been an 11 Nobel prize awardees since 2000 for RNA work. And in fact, we just had Venki who I know you know very well as our last podcast. And prior to that, Kati Karikó, Jennifer Doudna who worked in your lab, and the long list of people working RNA in the younger crowd like David Liu and Fyodor Urnov and just so many others, we need to have an RNA series because it's just exploding. And that one makes me take you back for a moment to 2007. And when I was reading the book, it came back to me about the Economist cover. You may recall almost exactly 17 years ago. It was called the Biology’s Big Bang – Unravelling the secrets of RNA. And in that, there was a notable quote from that article. Let me just get to that. And it says, “it is probably no exaggeration to say that biology is now undergoing its neutron moment.”

(06:52):

This is 17 years ago. “For more than half a century the fundamental story of living things has been a tale of the interplay between genes, in the form of DNA, and proteins, which is genes encode and which do the donkey work of keeping living organisms living. The past couple of years, 17 years ago, however, has seen the rise and rise of a third type of molecule, called RNA.” Okay, so that was 2007. It's pretty extraordinary. And now of course we're talking about the century of biology. So can you kind of put these last 17 years in perspective and where we're headed?

Tom Cech (07:34):

Well, Eric, of course, this didn't all happen in one moment. It wasn't just one big bang. And the scientific community has been really entranced with the wonders of RNA since the 1960s when everyone was trying to figure out how messenger RNA stored the genetic code. But the general public has been really kept in the dark about this, I think. And as scientists, were partially to blame for not reaching out and sharing what we have found with them in a way that's more understandable. The DNA, the general public's very comfortable with, it's the stuff of our heredity. We know about genetic diseases, about tracing our ancestry, about solving crimes with DNA evidence. We even say things like it's in my DNA to mean that it's really fundamental to us. But I think that RNA has been sort of kept in the closet, and now with the mRNA vaccines against Covid-19, at least everyone's heard of RNA. And I think that that sort of allowed me to put my foot in the door and say, hey, if you were curious about the mRNA vaccines, I have some more stories for you that you might be really interested in.

RNA vs RNA

Eric Topol (09:02):

Yeah, well, we'll get to that. Maybe we should get to that now because it is so striking the RNA versus RNA chapter in your book, and basically the story of how this RNA virus SARS-CoV-2 led to a pandemic and it was fought largely through the first at scale mRNA nanoparticle vaccine package. Now, that takes us back to some seminal work of being able to find, giving an mRNA to a person without inciting massive amount of inflammation and the substitution of pseudouridine or uridine in order to do that. Does that really get rid of all the inflammation? Because obviously, as you know, there's been some negativism about mRNA vaccines for that and also for the potential of not having as much immune cell long term activation. Maybe you could speak to that.

Tom Cech (10:03):

Sure. So the discovery b…

Professor Venki Ramakrishnan, a Nobel laureate for his work on unraveling the structure of function of the ribosome, has written a new book WHY WE DIE which is outstanding. Among many posts and recognitions for his extraordinary work in molecular biology, Venki has been President of the Royal Society, knighted in 2012, and was made a Member of the Order of Merit in 2022. He is a group leader at the MRC Laboratory of Molecular Biology research institute in Cambridge, UK.

A brief video snippet of our conversation below. Full videos of all Ground Truths podcasts can be seen on YouTube here. The audios are available on Apple and Spotify.

Transcript with links to audio and external links

Eric Topol (00:06):

Hello, this is Eric Topol with Ground Truths, and I have a really special guest today, Professor Venki Ramakrishnan from Cambridge who heads up the MRC Laboratory of Molecular Biology, and I think as you know a Nobel laureate for his seminal work on ribosomes. So thank you, welcome.

Venki Ramakrishnan (00:29):

Thank you. I just want to say that I'm not the head of the lab. I'm simply a staff member here.

Eric Topol (00:38):

Right. No, I don't want to give you more authority than you have, so that was certainly not implied. But today we're here to talk about this amazing book, Why We Die, which is a very provocative title and it mainly gets into the biology of aging, which Venki is especially well suited to be giving us a guided tour and his interpretations and views. And I read this book with fascination, Venki. I have three pages of typed notes from your book.

The Compression of Morbidity

Eric Topol (01:13):

And we could talk obviously for hours, but this is fascinating delving into this hot area, as you know, very hot area of aging. So I thought I'd start off more towards the end of the book where you kind of get philosophical into the ethics. And there this famous concept by James Fries of compression of morbidity that's been circulating for well over two decades. That's really the big question about all this aging effort. So maybe you could give us, do you think there is evidence for compression of morbidity so that you can just extend healthy aging and then you just fall off the cliff?

Venki Ramakrishnan (02:00):

I think that's the goal of most of the sort of what I call the saner end of the aging research community is to improve our health span. That is the number of years we have healthy lives, not so much to extend lifespan, which is how long we live. And the idea is that you take those years that we now spend in poor health or decrepitude and compress them down to just very short time, so you're healthy almost your entire life, and then suddenly go into a rapid decline and die. Now Fries who actually coined that term compression or morbidity compares this to the One-Hoss Shay after poem by Oliver Wendell Holmes from the 19th century, which is about this horse carriage that was designed so perfectly that all its parts wore out equally. And so, a farmer was riding along in this carriage one minute, and the next minute he found himself on the ground surrounded by a heap of dust, which was the entire carriage that had disintegrated.

Venki Ramakrishnan (03:09):

So the question I would ask is, if you are healthy and everything about you is healthy, why would you suddenly go into decline? And it's a fair question. And every advance we've made that has kept us healthier in one respect or another. For example, tackling diabetes or tackling heart disease has also extended our lifespan. So people are not living a bigger fraction of their lives healthily now, even though we're living longer. So the result is we're spending the same or even more number of years with one or more health problems in our old age. And you can see that in the explosion of nursing homes and care homes in almost all western countries. And as you know, they were big factors in Covid deaths. So I'm not sure it can be accomplished. I think that if we push forward with health, we're also going to extend our lifespan.

Venki Ramakrishnan (04:17):

Now the argument against that comes from studies of these, so-called super centenarians and semi super centenarians. These are people who live to be over 105 or 110. And Tom Perls who runs the New England study of centenarians has published findings which show that these supercentenarians live extraordinarily healthy lives for most of their life and undergo rapid decline and then die. So that's almost exactly what we would want. So they have somehow accomplished compression of morbidity. Now, I would say there are two problems with that. One is, I don't know about the data sample size. The number of people who live over 110 is very, very small. The other is they may be benefiting from their own unique genetics. So they may have a particular combination of genetics against a broad genetic background that's unique to each person. So I'm not sure it's a generally translatable thing, and it also may have to do with their particular life history and lifestyle. So I don't know how much of what we learned from these centenarians is going to be applicable to the population as a whole. And otherwise, I don't even know how this would be accomplished. Although some people feel there's a natural limit to our biology, which restricts our lifespan to about 115 or 120 years. Nobody has lived more than 122. And so, as we improve our health, we may come up against that natural limit. And so, you might get a compression of morbidity. I'm skeptical. I think it's an unsolved problem.

Eric Topol (06:14):

I think I'm with you about this, but there's a lot of conflation of the two concepts. One is to suppress age related diseases, and the other is to actually somehow modulate control the biologic aging process. And we lump it all together as you're getting at, which is one of the things I loved about your book is you really give a balanced view. You present the contrarians and the different perspectives, the perspective about people having age limits potentially much greater than 120, even though as you say, we haven't seen anyone live past 122 since 1997, so it's quite a long time. So this, I think, conflation of what we do today as far as things that will reduce heart disease or diabetes, that’s age related diseases, that's very different than controlling the biologic aging process. Now getting into that, one of the things that's particularly alluring right now, my friend here in San Diego, Juan Carlos Belmonte, who went over from Salk, which surprised me to the Altos Labs, as you pointed on in the book.

Venki Ramakrishnan (07:38):

I'm not surprised. I mean, you have a huge salary and all the resources you want to carry out the same kind of research. I wouldn't blame any of these guys.

Rejuvenating Animals With Yamanaka Factors

Eric Topol (07:50):

No, I understand. I understand. It's kind of like the LIV Golf tournament versus the PGA. It's pretty wild. At any rate, he's a good friend of mine, and I visited with him recently, and as you mentioned, he has over a hundred people working on this partial epigenetic reprogramming. And just so reviewing this for the uninitiated is giving the four Yamanaka transcription factors here to the whole animal or the mouse and rejuvenating old mice, essentially at least those with progeria. And then others have, as you point out in the book, done this with just old mice. So one of the things that strikes me about this, and in talking with him recently is it's going to be pretty hard to give these Yamanaka factors to a person, an intravenous infusion. So what are your thoughts about this rejuvenation of a whole person? What do you think?

Venki Ramakrishnan (08:52):

If I hadn't seen some of these papers would've been even more skeptical. But the data from, well, Belmonte's work was done initially on progeria mice. These are mice that age prematurely. And then people thought, well, they may not represent natural aging, and what you're doing is simply helpi…

After finishing her training in neurology at Mayo Clinic, Dr. Svetlana Blitshteyn started a Dysautonomia Clinic in 2009. Little did she know what was in store many years later when Covid hit!

Ground Truths podcasts are on Apple and Spotify. The video interviews are on YouTube

Transcript with audio and external links

Eric Topol (00:07):

Well, hello, it's Eric Topol from Ground Truths, and I have with me a really great authority on dysautonomia and POTS. We will get into what that is for those who aren't following this closely. And it's Svetlana Blitshteyn who is a faculty member at University of Buffalo and a neurologist who long before there was such a thing as Covid was already onto one of the most important pathways of the body, the autonomic nervous system and how it can go off track. So welcome, Svetlana.

Svetlana Blitshteyn (00:40):

Thank you so much, Eric for having me. And I want to say it's a great honor for me to be here and just to be on the list with your other guests. It's remarkable and I'm very grateful and congratulations on being on the TIME100 Health list for influential people in 2024. And I am grateful for everything that you've done. As I mentioned earlier, I'm a big fan of your work before the pandemic and of course with Covid I followed your podcast and posts because you became the best science communicator and I'm very happy to see you being a strong advocate and thank you for everything you've done.

Eric Topol (01:27):

Well, that's so kind to you. And I think talking about getting things going before the pandemic, back in 2011, you published a book with Jodi Epstein Rhum called POTS - Together We Stand: Riding the Waves of Dysautonomia. And you probably didn't have an idea that there would be an epidemic of that more than a decade later, I guess, right?

Svetlana Blitshteyn (01:54):

Yeah, absolutely. Of course, SARS-CoV-2 is a new virus and we can technically say that Long Covid and post Covid complications could be viewed as a new entity. But practically speaking, we know that post-infectious syndromes have been happening for many decades. And so, the most common trigger for POTS happened to be infection, whether it was influenza or mononucleosis or Lyme or enterovirus. We knew this was happening. So I think it didn't take long for me and my colleagues to realize that we're going to be seeing a lot of patients with autonomic dysfunction after Covid.

On the Front Line

Eric Topol (02:40):

Well, one of the things that's important for having you on is you're in the front lines taking care of lots of patients with Long Covid and this postural orthostatic tachycardia syndrome (POTS). And I wonder if you could tell us what it's care for these patients because so many of them are incapacitated. As a cardiologist, I see of course some because of the cardiovascular aspects, but you are dealing with this on a day-to-day basis.

Svetlana Blitshteyn (03:14):

Yeah, absolutely. As early as April 2020 when everything was closed, I got a call from a young doctor in New York City saying that he had Covid and he couldn't recover, he couldn't return to the hospital. And his colleagues and cardiology attendants also had the same symptoms and the symptoms were palpitations, orthostatic intolerance, tachycardia, fatigue. Now, how he knew to contact me is that his sister was my patient with POTS before Covid pandemic. So he kind of figured this looked like my sister, let me check this out. And it didn't take long for me to have a lot of patience from the early wave. And then fairly soon, I think within months I was thinking, we have to write this up because this is important. And to some of us it was not news, but I was sure that to many physicians and public health officials, this would be something new.

Svetlana Blitshteyn (04:18):

So because I'm a busy clinician and don't have a lot of time for publications, I had to recruit a graduate student from McMasters and together we had this paper out, which was the first and largest case series on post Covid POTS and other autonomic disorders. And interestingly, even though it came out I think in 2021, by the time it was published, it became the most citable paper for me. And so I think from then on organizations and societies became interested in the work that I do because prior to that, I must say in the kind of a niche specialty was I don't think it was very popular or of interest to me.

How Did You Get Interested in Dysautonomia?

Eric Topol (05:06):

Yeah, so that's why I wanted to just take a step back with you Svetlana, because you had the foresight to be the founder and director of the Dysautonomia Clinic when a lot of people weren't in touch with this as an important entity. What prompted you as a neurologist to really zoom in on dysautonomia when you started this clinic?

Svetlana Blitshteyn (05:28):

Sure. So the reasons are how I ended up in this field is kind of a convoluted road and the reasons are many, but one, I will say that I trained at Mayo Clinic where we received very good training on autonomic disorders and EMG and coming back to returning back to Buffalo, I began working at the large multiple sclerosis clinic because Western New York has a high incidence MS. And so, what they quickly realized in that clinic is that there was a subset of women who did not qualify for the diagnostic criteria of multiple sclerosis, yet they had a lot of the same symptoms and they were certainly very disabled. Now I recognize that these women had autonomic disorders of all sorts and small fiber neuropathy, and I think this population sort of grew and eventually I realized there is no one not only in Buffalo but the entire Western New York who is doing this work.

Svetlana Blitshteyn (06:34):

So I kind of fell into that. But another reason is actually more personal that I haven’t talked about. So years ago I was traveling to Toronto, Canada for a neurology meeting to present my big study on meningioma and hormone replacement therapy using Mayo Clinic database. And so, in that year, the study received top 10 noteworthy studies of the year award from the Society of Neuro-Oncology, and it was profiled in Reuters Health. Now, on the way back from the conference, I had the flu, and when they returned I could no longer walk the same hallways of the hospital where I walked previously. And no matter how hard I try to push my body, we all do this in medicine, we push through, I just couldn’t do it. No amount of wishing or positive thinking. And so, I think that’s how I came to know personally the post-infectious syndromes. And I think it almost became a duality of experiencing this and also practicing it.

Eric Topol (07:52):

No, that’s really striking and it wasn’t so common to hear about this post flu, but certainly it changed in 2020. So how does a person with POTS typically present to you?

Clinical Presentation

Svetlana Blitshteyn (08:08):

So these are very important questions because what I want to stress is though POTS is one of the most common autonomic disorders. Even if you don’t have POTS by the diagnostic criteria, you may still have autonomic dysfunction and significant autonomic symptoms. How do they present? Well, they present like most Long Covid patients, the most common symptoms are orthostatic intolerance, fatigue, exercise intolerance, post exertional malaise, dizziness, tachycardia, brain fog. And these are common themes across the board in Long Covid patients, but also in pre-Covid post-acute infection syndrome patients. And you have to recognize because I think what I tell my colleagues is that oftentimes patients are not going to present to you saying, I have orthostatic intolerance. Many times they will say, I’m very tired. I can no longer go to the gym or when I go to the store, I have to be out of there in 15 minutes because the orthostatic intolerance symptoms come up.

Svetlana Blitshteyn (09:22):

So sometimes the patients themselves don’t recognize that and it’s up to us physicians to ask the right questions to get the…

“We haven't invested this much money into an infrastructure like this really until you go back to the pyramids”—Kate Crawford

Transcript with links to audio and external links. Ground Truths podcasts are on Apple and Spotify. The video interviews are on YouTube

Eric Topol (00:06):

Well, hello, this is Eric Topol with Ground Truths, and I'm really delighted today to welcome Kate Crawford, who we're very lucky to have as an Australian here in the United States. And she's multidimensional, as I've learned, not just a scholar of AI, all the dimensions of AI, but also an artist, a musician. We're going to get into all this today, so welcome Kate.

Kate Crawford (00:31):

Thank you so much, Eric. It's a pleasure to be here.

Eric Topol (00:34):

Well, I knew of your work coming out of the University of Southern California (USC) as a professor there and at Microsoft Research, and I'm only now learning about all these other things that you've been up to including being recognized in TIME 2023 as one of 100 most influential people in AI and it's really fascinating to see all the things that you've been doing. But I guess I'd start off with one of your recent publications in Nature. It was a world view, and it was about generative AI is guzzling water and energy. And in that you wrote about how these large AI systems, which are getting larger seemingly every day are needing as much energy as entire nations and the water consumption is rampant. So maybe we can just start off with that. You wrote a really compelling piece expressing concerns, and obviously this is not just the beginning of all the different aspects you've been tackling with AI.

Exponential Growth, Exponential Concerns

Kate Crawford (01:39):

Well, we're in a really interesting moment. What I've done as a researcher in this space for a very long time now is really introduce a material analysis of artificial intelligence. So we are often told that AI is a very immaterial technology. It's algorithms in the cloud, it's objective mathematics, but in actual fact, it comes with an enormous material infrastructure. And this is something that I took five years to research for my last book, Atlas of AI. It meant going to the mines where lithium and cobalt are being extracted. It meant going into the Amazon fulfillment warehouses to see how humans collaborate with robotic and AI systems. And it also meant looking at the large-scale labs where training data is being gathered and then labeled by crowd workers. And for me, this really changed my thinking. It meant that going from being a professor for 15 years focusing on AI from a very traditional perspective where we write papers, we're sitting in our offices behind desks, that I really had to go and do these journeys, these field trips, to understand that full extractive infrastructure that is needed to run AI at a planetary scale.

(02:58):

So I've been keeping a very close eye on what would change with generative AI and what we've seen particularly in the last two years has been an extraordinary expansion of the three core elements that I really write about in Atlas, so the extraction of data of non-renewable resources, and of course hidden labor. So what we've seen, particularly on the resources side, is a gigantic spike both in terms of energy and water and that's often the story that we don't hear. We're not aware that when we're told about the fact that there gigantic hundred billion computers that are now being developed for the next stage of generative AI that has an enormous energy and water footprint. So I've been researching that along with many others who are now increasingly concerned about how we might think about AI more holistically.

Eric Topol (03:52):

Well, let's go back to your book, which is an extraordinary book, the AI Atlas and how you dissected not just the well power of politics and planetary costs, but that has won awards and it was a few years back, and I wonder so much has changed since then. I mean ChatGPT in late 2022 caught everybody off guard who wasn't into this knowing that this has been incubating for a number of years, and as you said, these base models are just extraordinary in every parameter you can think about, particularly the computing resource and consumption. So your concerns were of course registered then, have they gone to exponential growth now?

Kate Crawford (04:45):

I love the way you put that. I think you're right. I think my concerns have grown exponentially with the models. But I was like everybody else, even though I've been doing this for a long time and I had something of a heads up in terms of where we were moving with transformer models, I was also quite taken aback at the extraordinary uptake of ChatGPT back in November 2022 in fact, gosh, it still feels like yesterday it's been such an extraordinary timescale. But looking at that shift to a hundred million users in two months and then the sort of rapid competition that was emerging from the major tech companies that I think really took me by surprise, the degree to which everybody was jumping on the bandwagon, applying some form of large language model to everything and anything suddenly the hammer was being applied to every single nail.

(05:42):

And in all of that sound and fury and excitement, I think there will be some really useful applications of these tools. But I also think there's a risk that we apply it in spaces where it's really not well suited that we are not looking at the societal and political risks that come along with these approaches, particularly next token prediction as a way of generating knowledge. And then finally this bigger set of questions around what is it really costing the planet to build these infrastructures that are really gargantuan? I mean, as a species, we haven't invested this much money into an infrastructure like this really until you go back to the pyramids, you really got to go very far back to say that type of just gargantuan spending in terms of capital, in terms of labor, in terms of all of the things are required to really build these kinds of systems. So for me, that's the moment that we're in right now and perhaps here together in 2024, we can take a breath from that extraordinary 18 month period and hopefully be a little more reflective on what we're building and why and where will it be best used.

Propagation of Biases

Eric Topol (06:57):

Yeah. Well, there's so many aspects of this that I'd like to get into with you. I mean, one of course, you're as a keen observer and activist in this whole space, you've made I think a very clear point about how our culture is mirrored in our AI that is our biases, and people are of course very quick to blame AI per se, but it seems like it's a bigger problem than just that. Maybe you could comment about, obviously biases are a profound concern about propagation of them, and where do you see where the problem is and how it can be attacked?

Kate Crawford (07:43):

Well, it is an enormous problem, and it has been for many years. I was first really interested in this question in the era that was known as the big data era. So we can think about the mid-2000s, and I really started studying large scale uses of data in scientific applications, but also in what you call social scientific settings using things like social media to detect and predict opinion, movement, the way that people were assessing key issues. And time and time again, I saw the same problem, which is that we have this tendency to assume that with scale comes greater accuracy without looking at the skews from the data sources. Where is that data coming from? What are the potential skews there? Is there a population that's overrepresented compared to others? And so, I began very early on looking at those questions. And then when we had very large-scale data sets start to emerge, like ImageNet, which was really perhaps the most influential dataset behind computer vision that was released in 2009, it was used widely, it was freely av…

If there’s one person you’d want to talk to about immunology, the immune system and Covid, holes in our knowledge base about the complex immune system, and where the field is headed, it would be Professor Iwasaki. And add to that the topic of Women in Science. Here’s our wide-ranging conversation.

A snippet of the video, Full length Ground Truths videos are posted here and you can subscribe.

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Transcript with many external link and links to the audio, recorded 30 April 2024

Eric Topol (00:06):

Hello, it's Eric Topol and I'm really thrilled to have my friend Akiko Iwasaki from Yale, and before I start talking with Akiko, I just want to mention there aren't too many silver linings of the pandemic, but one for me was getting to know Professor Iwasaki. She is my go-to immunologist. I've learned so much from her over the last four years and she's amazing. She just, as you may know, she was just recently named one of the most influential people in the world by TIME100. [and also recognized this week in TIME 100 Health]. And besides that, she's been elected to the National Academy of Medicine, National Academy of Sciences. She's the president of the American Association of Immunologists and she's a Howard Hughes principal investigator. So Akiko, it's wonderful to have you to join into an extended discussion of things that we have of mutual interest.

Akiko Iwasaki (01:04):

Thank you so much, Eric, for having me. I equally appreciate all of what you do, and I follow your blog and tweets and everything. So thank you Eric.

Eric Topol (01:14):

Well, you are a phenom. I mean just, that's all I can say because I think it was so appropriate that TIME recognize your contributions, not just over the pandemic, but of course throughout your career, a brilliant career in immunology. I thought we'd start out with our topic of great interest on Long Covid. You've done seminal work here and this is an evolving topic obviously. I wonder what your latest thoughts are on the pathogenesis and where things are headed.

Long Covid

Akiko Iwasaki (01:55):

Yeah, so as I have been saying throughout the pandemic, I think that Long Covid is not one disease. It's a collection of multiple diseases and that are sort of ending up in similar sets of symptoms. Obviously, there are over 200 symptoms and not everyone has the same set of symptoms, but what we are going for is trying to understand the disease drivers, so persistent viral infection is one of them. There are overwhelming evidence for that theory now, all the way from autopsy and biopsy studies to looking at peripheral blood RNA signatures as well as circulating spike protein and nucleocapsid proteins that are detected in people with Long Covid. Now whether that persistent virus or remnants of virus is driving the disease itself is unclear still. And that's why trials like the one that we are engaging with Harlan Krumholz on Paxlovid should tell us what percentage of the people are suffering from that type of driver and whether antivirals like Paxlovid might be able to mitigate those. If I may, I'd like to talk about three other hypotheses.

Eric Topol (03:15):

Yeah, I'd love for you to do that.

Akiko Iwasaki (03:18):

Okay, great. So the second hypothesis that we've been working on is autoimmune disease. And so, this is clearly happening in a subset of people, again, it's a heterogeneous disease, but we can actually not only look at reactogenicity of antibodies from people with Long Covid where we can transfer IgG from patients with Long Covid into an animal, a healthy animal, and really measure outcomes of a pathogenesis. So that's a functional evidence that antibodies in some people with Long Covid is really actually causing some of the damages that are occurring in vivo. And the third hypothesis is the reactivation of herpes viruses. So many of us adults have multiple latent herpes virus family members that are just dormant and are not really causing any pathologies. But in people with Long Covid, we're seeing elevated reactivation of viruses like Epstein-Barr virus (EBV) or Varicella-zoster virus (VZV) and that may again be just a signature of Long Covid, but it may also be driving some of the symptoms that people are suffering from.

(04:32):

So that's again, we see the signature over and over, not just our group, but multiple other groups, Michael Peluso's group, Jim Heath, and many others. So that's also an emerging evidence from multiple groups showing that. And finally, we think that inflammation that occurs during the acute phase can sort of chronically change some tissue tone. For instance, in the brain with Michelle Monje’s team, we developed a sort of localized mild Covid model of infection and showed that changes in microglia can be seen seven weeks post infection even though the virus is completely gone. So that means that inflammation that's established as a result of this initial infection can have prolonged sequence and sequela within the person and that may also be driving disease. And Eric, the reason we need to understand these diseases separately is because not only for diagnostic purposes, but for therapeutic purposes because to target a persistent virus is very different approach from targeting autoantibodies, for example.

Eric Topol (05:49):

Well, that's great. There's a lot to unpack there as you laid out four distinct paths that could result in the clinical syndrome and sequelae. I think you know I had the chance to have a really fun conversation with Michelle about their joint work that you've done, and she reminded me how she made a cold call to you to start as a collaboration, which I thought was fantastic. Look what that yielded. But yeah, this is fascinating because as I think you're getting at is that it may not be the same pathogenesis in any given individual so that all these, and even others might be operative. I guess maybe I first delve into the antibody story as you're well aware, we see after people get Covid a higher rate of autoimmune diseases crop up, which is really interesting because it seems to rev up self-directed immune response. And this I think many people haven't really noted yet, although obviously you're well aware of this, it's across all the different autoimmune diseases, connective tissue disease, not just one in particular. And it's, as you say, the idea that you could take the blood from a person suffering from Long Covid and give it to an experimental animal model and be able to recapitulate some of the abnormalities, it's really pretty striking. So the question I guess is if you were to do plasmapheresis and try to basically expunge these autoantibodies, wouldn't you expect people to have some symptomatic benefit pretty rapidly or is it just that the process is already far from the initiating step?

Akiko Iwasaki (07:54):

That's a great question. Plasmapheresis may be able to transiently improve the person if they're suffering from these autoantibody mediated diseases. People have reported, for example, IVIG treatment has dramatically improved their symptoms, but not in everybody. So it's really critical to understand who's suffering from this particular driver and appropriately treat those people. And there are many other very effective therapies in autoimmune disease field that can be repurposed for treating these patients as well.

Eric Topol (08:34):

The only clinical trial that has clicked so far, interestingly, came out of Hong Kong with different types of ways to manipulate the gut microbiome, which again, you know better than me is a major modulator of our immune system response. What are your thoughts about taking advantage of that way to somehow modulate this untoward immune response in people with this condition?

Akiko Iwasaki (09:07):

Yeah, so that is an exciting sort of development, and I don't mean to discount the importance of microbiome at all. It's…

“Where do I think the next amazing revolution is going to come? … There’s no question that digital biology is going to be it. For the very first time in our history, in human history, biology has the opportunity to be engineering, not science.” —Jensen Huang, NVIDIA CEO

Aviv Regev is one of the leading life scientists of our time. In this conversation, we cover the ongoing revolution in digital biology that has been enabled by new deep knowledge on cells, proteins and genes, and the use of generative A.I .

Transcript with audio and external links

Eric Topol (00:05):

Hello, it's Eric Topol with Ground Truths and with me today I've really got the pleasure of welcoming Aviv Regev, who is the Executive Vice President of Research and Early Development at Genentech, having been 14 years a leader at the Broad Institute and who I view as one of the leading life scientists in the world. So Aviv, thanks so much for joining.

Aviv Regev (00:33):

Thank you for having me and for the very kind introduction.

The Human Cell Atlas

Eric Topol (00:36):

Well, it is no question in my view that is the truth and I wanted to have a chance to visit a few of the principal areas that you have been nurturing over many years. First of all, the Human Cell Atlas (HCA), the 37 trillion cells in our body approximately a little affected by size and gender and whatnot, but you founded the human cell atlas and maybe you can give us a little background on what you were thinking forward thinking of course when you and your colleagues initiated that big, big project.

Aviv Regev (01:18):

Thanks. Co-founded together with my very good friend and colleague, Sarah Teichmann, who was at the Sanger and just moved to Cambridge. I think our community at the time, which was still small at the time, really had the vision that has been playing out in the last several years, which is a huge gratification that if we had a systematic map of the cells of the body, we would be able both to understand biology better as well as to provide insight that would be meaningful in trying to diagnose and to treat disease. The basic idea behind that was that cells are the basic unit of life. They're often the first level at which you understand disease as well as in which you understand health and that in the human body, given the very large number of individual cells, 37.2 trillion give or take, and there are many different characteristics.

(02:16):

Even though biologists have been spending decades and centuries trying to characterize cells, they still had a haphazard view of them and that the advancing technology at the time – it was mostly single cell genomics, it was the beginnings also of spatial genomics – suggested that now there would be a systematic way, like a shared way of doing it across all cells in the human body rather than in ways that were niche and bespoke and as a result didn't unify together. I will also say, and if you go back to our old white paper, you will see some of it that we had this feeling because many of us were computational scientists by training, including both myself and Sarah Teichmann, that having a map like this, an atlas as we call it, a data set of this magnitude and scale, would really allow us to build a model to understand cells. Today, we call them foundational models or foundation models. We knew that machine learning is hungry for these kinds of data and that once you give it to machine learning, you get amazing things in return. We didn't know exactly what those things would be, and that has been playing out in front of our eyes as well in the last couple of years.

Spatial Omics

Eric Topol (03:30):

Well, that gets us to the topic you touched on the second area I wanted to get into, which is extraordinary, which is the spatial omics, which is related to the ability to the single cell sequencing of cells and nuclei and not just RNA and DNA and methylation and chromatin. I mean, this is incredible that you can track the evolution of cancer, that the old word that we would say is a tumor is heterogeneous, is obsolete because you can map every cell. I mean, this is just changing insights about so much of disease health mechanisms, so this is one of the hottest areas of all of life science. It's an outgrowth of knowing about cells. How do you summarize this whole era of spatial omics?

Aviv Regev (04:26):

Yeah, so there's a beautiful sentence in the search for lost time from Marcel Proust that I'm going to mess up in paraphrasing, but it is roughly that going on new journeys is not about actually going somewhere physically but looking with new eyes and I butchered the quote completely.[See below for actual quote.] I think that is actually what single cells and then spatial genomics or spatial omics more broadly has given us. It's the ability to look at the same phenomenon that we looked at all along, be it cancer or animal development or homeostasis in the lung or the way our brain works, but having new eyes in looking and because these new eyes are not just seeing more of something we've seen before, but actually seeing things that we couldn't realize were there before. It starts with finding cells we didn't know existed, but it's also the processes that these cells undergo, the mechanisms that actually control that, the causal mechanisms that control that, and especially in the case of spatial genomics, the ways in which cells come together.

(05:43):

And so we often like to think about the cell because it's the unit of life, but in a multicellular organism we just as much have to think about tissues and after that organs and systems and so on. In a tissue, you have this amazing orchestration of the interactions between different kinds of cells, and this happens in space and in time and as we're able to look at this in biology often structure is tightly associated to function. So the structure of the protein to the function of the protein in the same way, the way in which things are structured in tissue, which cells are next to each other, what molecules are they expressing, how are they physically interacting, really tells us how they conduct the business of the tissue. When the tissue functions well, it is this multicellular circuit that performs this amazing thing known as homeostasis.

(06:36):

Everything changes and yet the tissue stays the same and functions, and in disease, of course, when these connections break, they're not done in the right way you end up with pathology, which is of course something that even historically we have always looked at in the level of the tissue. So now we can see it in a much better way, and as we see it in a better way, we resolve better things. Yes, we can understand better the mechanisms that underlie the resistance to therapeutics. We can follow a temporal process like cancer as it unfortunately evolves. We can understand how autoimmune disease plays out with many cells that are actually bent out of shape in their interactions. We can also follow magnificent things like how we start from a single cell, the fertilized egg, and we become 37.2 trillion cell marvel. These are all things that this ability to look in a different way allows us to do.

Eric Topol (07:34):

It's just extraordinary. I wrote at Ground Truths about this. I gave all the examples at that time, and now there's about 50 more in the cardiovascular arena, knowing with single cell of the pineal gland that the explanation of why people with heart failure have sleep disturbances. I mean that's just one of the things of so many now these new insights it's really just so remarkable. Now we get to the current revolution, and I wanted to read to you a quote that I have.

Digital Biology

Aviv Regev (08:16):

I should have prepared mine. I did it off the top of my head.

Eric Topol (08:20):

It's actually from Jensen Huang at NVIDIA about the digital biology [at top of the transcript] and how it changes the world and how you're changing the world with AI and lab in the loop and all these things going on in thr…