Healthy Love & Money: Financial Therapy, Intimacy, Conflict & Communication for Couples

Healthy Love & Money: Financial Therapy, Intimacy, Conflict & Communication for Couples

By Ed Coambs - Therapy-Informed Financial Planning™Society & CultureBusinessHealth & FitnessMental HealthRelationships
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Healthy Love & Money: Financial Therapy, Intimacy, Conflict & Communication for Couples episodes

  • How To Work With Your Money Mindset and Build Your Mental Wealth with Joyce Marter

    Could your self-esteem be tied to your bank balance? This episode of Healthy Love and Money answers that question with the help of Joyce Marter, a prominent businesswoman who overcame her own financial anxiety to sell her business for seven figures. Joyce’s story is not only captivating but also enlightening. Her transition from financial stress to financial abundance sheds light on the intertwined nature of our self-esteem and net worth, and how setting healthy financial boundaries can be a crucial part of this journey.

     

    Our host, Therapy-Informed Financial Planner Ed Coambs along with Joyce, dive into the less-discussed but significantly impactful topic of financial traumas and their influence on our mental health. They unravel how therapies such as EMDR can aid in reprogramming the negative beliefs linked to these traumas, paving the way for growth and success. Joyce emphasizes the importance of understanding your worth, recognizing it, and ensuring it reflects in your professional fee structures.

     

    They venture into an intriguing discussion around the concept of financial intimacy. Joyce shares experiences with financial infidelity, and how it often signals unresolved issues within relationships. This episode encourages us to examine our own family and cultural beliefs about money, and empowers us to make the necessary changes. Listen in to gain fresh insights into financial empowerment, self-esteem, and uncover the often overlooked yet essential aspect of financial intimacy.

     

     

    Key Topics:

    •  Joyce’s Money Journey (02:08)
    •  The Importance of Asking for Help (07:46)
    •  The Connection Between Self-Worth and Net Worth (11:27)
    •  The Importance of Emotional Intelligence and Self-Awareness (16:11)
    •  Financial Traumas and Working through Them (20:12)
    •  Fee Integrity (26:35)
    •  How Joyce Defines Financial Intimacy (29:28)
    •  Financial Infidelity (32:45)
    •  The Real Problem with Financial Trauma (34:02)

    •  

       

      Resources:

      • The Inner Dimensions of Mastering Money Program with Joyce
      • The Financial Mindset Fix Book by Joyce
      • JoyceMarter.com

      •  

         

        Connect With Healthy Love and Money:

        1.   Schedule your free 30-Minute Discovery Call About Therapy-Informed Financial Planning™.
        2.   Learn about your money and attachment style with this short Attachment Style Quiz.
        3.   Buy the Double Award Winning Book: The Healthy Love and Money Way. 
        4.   Hit Follow on Your Favorite Podcast Player To Get the Latest Episodes.

        5. 40 min
        6. Why Gayle Colman's New Book The Body of Money is So Helpful For Transforming Our Relationship with Money

          “The journey is not necessarily to wake up, but to wake down. Waking down into our beautiful body”

           

          Meet Gayle Colman, renowned financial planner and author, as she takes us on a journey to explore money's profound relationship with our bodies. She brings to light the riveting concept of somatic finance, emphasizing the significance of embodiment in life and our financial engagements. Our host Ed Coambs along with Gayle dive deep into previous financial fears and behaviors, shedding light on overcoming and transforming these experiences.

           

          Drawing upon human essentials, they delve into safety, connection, and dignity, exploring money's role in meeting these needs. Gayle poses a compelling argument that it's our body that truly informs us of the fulfillment or lack thereof of these essentials. They discuss how embracing mindfulness practices and cultivating an embodiment of sufficiency can truly make us feel safe, connected, and honored.

           

          Ed and Gayle touch upon the important aspect of self-awareness and trusting our bodies. They discover how external achievements, while beneficial, are not the essence of our true selves. By acknowledging and respecting our body's signals, we learn to build trust with it, fill the gaps missing from our early childhood experiences, and how to string together moments of feeling okay to build our sufficiency muscle. All this and more in this episode of Healthy Love and Money.

           

           

           

           

          Key Topics:

          • Intro to Gayle Colman (00:51)
          • Gayle’s Description of the Word Somatic (02:52)
          • Embodiment is a Concept (04:59)
          • Trusting Your Body and Your Intuition (08:42)
          • What Does Embodiment Mean to You? (11:17)
          • Cultivating a Somatic Sense of Sufficiency (16:04)
          • External Achievements are Partial, Not the Essence of Who We Are (21:08)
          • ReParenting and ReLoving Ourselves (23:47)
          • How Being at Home in Our Bodies Impacts Our Thinking (30:18)
          • Getting Grounded and Open to Change (33:24)
          • Gayle’s Final Wisdom and Contact Info (41:33)

          •  

             

             

             

            Resources:

            • SomaticFinance.com
            • Instagram
            • Facebook
            • LinkedIn

            •  

               

               

               

              Connect With Healthy Love and Money:

              1.   Schedule your free 30-Minute Discovery Call About Therapy-Informed Financial Planning™.
              2.   Learn about your money and attachment style with this short Attachment Style Quiz.
              3.   Buy the Double Award Winning Book: The Healthy Love and Money Way. 
              4.   Hit Follow on Your Favorite Podcast Player To Get the Latest Episodes.

              5. 45 min
              6. How Evolving Financially Can Lead To New Meaning In Life - Daniele Beasley

                “I think that focusing on the behavioral aspects, is the most important thing and matching the math not with the investment side of things, but with the math of ‘how is this going to fund my lifestyle for the next 25, 50 years, and how am I going to leave a legacy for my family?’"

                 

                 

                Our host Ed Coambs of Healthy Love and Money sits down with Certified Financial Planner Daniele Beasley. Daniele's journey to financial intimacy is nothing short of inspiring as she shares her experiences from shifting investment outlooks to navigating the delicate tension between contrasting investment philosophies. Ed and Daniele explore the evolution of the financial industry and the increasingly necessary role of financial planning and therapy in navigating our money matters.

                 

                They venture into the challenging terrain of financial literacy and planning, focusing on the need to create a balance between our present and future selves. The conversation takes a deeper turn as they dive into how psychological frameworks facilitate our understanding of complex facets of our minds. Daniele imparts her wisdom on recognizing stages in cycles of change and guiding clients through them, using the trans-theoretical model of change as a constructive tool.

                 

                Ed and Daniele then contemplate the value of reflection and gratefulness in our journey toward financial intimacy. They stress the importance of taking time to assimilate new knowledge and how it can empower us all to make informed financial decisions. Daniele's insightful perspectives offer a refreshing outlook on financial matters, reminding us that it is not simply about accumulating assets, but also about forming meaningful connections and understanding our financial lives on a deeper level. Tune in for this enlightening discussion that promises to transform your perspective on financial planning, personal growth, and their intersection.

                 

                 

                Key Topics:

                •  Introduction to Daniele (01:32)
                •  Psychological Shift in Investment Outlook (05:14)
                •  Themes in High-Net-Worth Families that Need Coaching (11:10)
                •  Helping Clients Help Themselves (16:17)
                •  The Developmental Process of Financial Education (23:29)
                •  Continuous Education for the Advisor and Client (25:46)
                •  Chasing the True “Meaning” (31:08)
                •  The Stages of Emotional Financial Development (36:35)
                •  The Cycle of Change Framework (39:00)
                •  The Importance of Personal and Financial Goals and Joining the Two (45:25)
                •  Wrap-Up (47:57)

                •  

                   

                  Resources:

                  • Twenty Concierge Wealth Management
                  • Co Learning Books

                  •  

                     

                    Connect With Healthy Love and Money:

                    1.   Schedule your free 30-Minute Discovery Call About Therapy-Informed Financial Planning™.
                    2.   Learn about your money and attachment style with this short Attachment Style Quiz.
                    3.   Buy the Double Award Winning Book: The Healthy Love and Money Way. 
                    4.   Hit Follow on Your Favorite Podcast Player To Get the Latest Episodes.

                    5. 51 min
                    6. Unmasking Childhood Trauma, Brain Injuries and Rebuilding Life As You Know It - Kara Stoltenberg

                      “Trauma, unresolved, hijacks our intimate relationships.”

                       

                      Today, our host Ed Coambs delves into this difficult topic with guest Kara Stoltenberg, an author, spiritual mentor, and life coach who shares her profound journey of resilience and healing. Listen in as Kara opens up about the significant life traumas she has faced, from health struggles to a life-threatening bike accident, and the challenges she encountered and continues to face as a single mother and the sole breadwinner of her family. She discusses her passion for helping her clients navigate their trauma and how it has shaped her professional path.

                       

                      Kara and Ed explore the impact of trauma on intimate relationships and the importance of healing. She shares her insights on how trauma shapes our decisions, affects our relationships, and the vital process of guiding ourselves out of victimhood. They touch on the healing power of EMDR, a radical experience that helps unravel dissociated memories, and the importance of working on our 'pickers' during the healing process.

                       

                      The discussion continues with an examination of the intersections of trauma, intimacy, and money. Ed and Kara talk about the dance of sharing trauma stories in relationships and the courage required to take risks in sharing. Kara's inspiring story of using a self-driving Tesla to manage driving after her brain injury and the associated shame around receiving support provides a valuable perspective on overcoming shame and embracing help. In wrapping up, they delve into the concept of financial intimacy and how taking time to reflect and journal can greatly assist in this journey. Tune in to this insightful episode for a deep understanding of trauma, healing, and financial intimacy.

                       

                       

                      Key Topics:

                      •  Intro to Kara and her story (00:56)
                      •  “It’s not healing, period” (11:12)
                      •  Unresolved Trauma Hijacks our Relationships (16:48)
                      •  Why Victim Mentality Brings Shame to Victims (22:36)
                      •  Speaking About it is Part of Resolving Trauma (28:27)
                      •  The Delicate Dance of Sharing Your Story (33:58)
                      •  Kara’s Reaction to Fundraising After Her Accident (36:25)
                      •  Ed’s Live Therapy Experiment (43:03)
                      •  Circling Back to How Trauma Affects Intimacy (47:45)

                      •  

                         

                        Resources:

                        • KaraStoltenberg.com
                        • @karastoltenberg on IG
                        • Kara on FB

                        •  

                           

                          Connect With Healthy Love and Money:

                          1.   Schedule your free 30-Minute Discovery Call About Therapy-Informed Financial Planning™.
                          2.   Learn about your money and attachment style with this short Attachment Style Quiz.
                          3.   Buy the Double Award Winning Book: The Healthy Love and Money Way. 
                          4.   Hit Follow on Your Favorite Podcast Player To Get the Latest Episodes.

                          5. 55 min
                          6. Driven To Success and Childhood Trauma Why Every Memory Deserves Respect - Michael Baldwin

                            Meet Michael Baldwin, the remarkable author with a riveting story that redefines the narrative around mental health and trauma. Michael, acclaimed for his insightful book "Every Memory Deserves Respect: EMDR, the Proven Trauma Therapy with the Power to Heal," joins us to share his personal journey towards healing, and how Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing (EMDR) therapy became a game-changer in his life. This episode not only provides an in-depth exploration of Michael’s inspiring journey and his cleverly devised acronym but also emphasizes the role of EMDR in treating PTSD and trauma-related issues.

                             

                            Our host Ed Coambs along with Michael dig deeper into understanding the profound influence memories have on us, and how trauma and attachment shape our relationships. In this chat with Michael, the complexities of attachment and its impact on our ability to maintain relationships are discussed, bridging an understanding of trauma and its lasting effects.

                             

                            They further delve into how EMDR helps in reducing the intensity of traumatic memories and the potential of our financial life to carry the burden of negative childhood memories. This is a crucial conversation for anyone looking to comprehend the impact of childhood trauma and healing through EMDR.

                             

                             

                            Key Topics:

                            • How Michael Invented His Own Acronym for EMDR (02:04)
                            • Michael’s Mental Health Journey (04:45)
                            • What is EMDR Therapy? (15:27)
                            • Underlying Trauma and Survival Strategies (22:31)
                            • Trauma in the Brain and How it Affects Our Decisions (26:37)
                            • How does EMDR Help with Treating Traumatic Memories? (32:36)
                            • The Psychological Reasons Why We Create Memories (35:35)
                            • Relation to Financial Literacy (37:38)
                            • Wrap-Up (38:27)

                            •  

                               

                              Resources:

                              • EveryMemoryDeservesRespect.com
                              • Every Memory Deserves Respect (book)

                              •  

                                 

                                Connect With Healthy Love and Money:

                                1.   Schedule your free 30-Minute Discovery Call About Therapy-Informed Financial Planning™.
                                2.   Learn about your money and attachment style with this short Attachment Style Quiz.
                                3.   Buy the Double Award Winning Book: The Healthy Love and Money Way. 
                                4.   Hit Follow on Your Favorite Podcast Player To Get the Latest Episodes.

                                5. 42 min
                                6. Why Reclaiming Old Passions Can Ignite Excitement For Financial Planning with Kim Curtis

                                  “Money is looking for you. Money by itself has no value. It’s just a tool. It only has the value we give it. So, money to become something, needs your ideas, your vision, your values, your imagination, your curiosity to become something of use to the world.”

                                   

                                  Our host Ed Coambs is joined by Kim Curtis of Wealth Legacy Institute. Her successful shift from a legal career to a spokesperson for personal finance demonstrates how resilience and passion can lead to a fulfilling career change, no matter how unexpected it may be. Kim sheds light on how to navigate the complex world of financial decisions with our partners, emphasizing the importance of communication and understanding.

                                   

                                  Transitioning life roles can be difficult, particularly when it comes to money matters. Kim explores how to leverage a financial plan to provide support in these changes, and how our perception of a financially sound choice evolves as we mature. Her personal journey from poverty to owning a prosperous wealth management firm is nothing short of inspirational. It emphasizes the significance of self-reflection and asking the right questions to make sound financial decisions.

                                   

                                  Ed and Kim also delve into the meaning and power of money. They explore how it needs our vision, values, ideas, and curiosity to be useful in the world. Money can shape outcomes in our lives, but it’s essential to stay connected with our authentic selves to make better decisions. Kim's insights are sure to leave you with valuable takeaways, inspiring you to lead a more financially fulfilled life.

                                   

                                   

                                  Key Topics:

                                  •  Kim’s Journey to Her Current Work of Financial Planning (02:03)
                                  •  Working with Couples at the Point of Change and Transition (07:49)
                                  •  The Layers of Financial Planning (13:28)
                                  •  Kim’s Books (23:22)
                                  •  Reclaiming Your Childhood Passions (26:24)
                                  •  The Value and Meaning We Put in Money (36:39)
                                  •  The Two Laws of Money (43:38)

                                  •  

                                     

                                    Resources:

                                    • WealthLegacyInstitute.com
                                    • FinancialLiteracyPress.com
                                    • Kim Curtis on YouTube

                                    •  

                                       

                                       

                                      Connect With Healthy Love and Money:

                                      1.   Schedule your free 30-Minute Discovery Call About Therapy-Informed Financial Planning™.
                                      2.   Learn about your money and attachment style with this short Attachment Style Quiz.
                                      3.   Buy the Double Award Winning Book: The Healthy Love and Money Way. 
                                      4.   Hit Follow on Your Favorite Podcast Player To Get the Latest Episodes.

                                      5. 51 min
                                      6. How Newlyweds Can Honor Each Other With Financial Intimacy with Bill Nelson

                                        Have you ever wondered how to navigate the complexities of financial intimacy as a newlywed? This episode presents a riveting discussion with Bill Nelson of Pacesetter Planning, who provides enlightening insights into the world of financial planning for couples just starting their marriage journey together. From planning the big day to merging finances and tackling student loan or other existing debt, our host Ed Coambs along with Bill, discuss taking the awkwardness out of money conversations and ensuring a healthy financial life from the get-go.

                                         

                                        They delve further into the dynamics of financial therapy, exploring its profound role in helping couples bridge the gap between different financial backgrounds to create a robust financial plan. They underscore the importance of balance – understanding past financial experiences while planning for the future - and how it can guide couples in making sound financial decisions. Furthermore, Bill and Ed emphasize the significance of a unified vision and goal for the future, and outline the benefits of having a shared mission statement that can steer couples toward their financial dreams. All this and more on this episode of Healthy Love and Money!

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                        Key Topics:

                                        •  How Bill Got into Financial Planning (01:45)
                                        •  Learning to Work Together as a Couple (07:21)
                                        •  Finding the Right Balance Between Past and Present (15:21)
                                        •  Reverse Engineer Your Financial Plan (24:44)
                                        •  The Importance of Having a Mission Statement (30:18)
                                        •  Bill’s Parting Advice (40:55)

                                        •  

                                           

                                           

                                          Resources:

                                          • Pacesetter Planning on Instagram
                                          • Marriage-Centered Money (book + bonuses)

                                          •  

                                             

                                             

                                            Connect With Healthy Love and Money:

                                            1.   Schedule your free 30-Minute Discovery Call About Therapy-Informed Financial Planning™.
                                            2.   Learn about your money and attachment style with this short Attachment Style Quiz.
                                            3.   Buy the Double Award Winning Book: The Healthy Love and Money Way. 
                                            4.   Hit Follow on Your Favorite Podcast Player To Get the Latest Episodes.

                                            5. 44 min
                                            6. Exploring The New Book Black Financial Culture: Building Wealth From The Inside Out with Dr. Michael Thomas

                                              What if you could decode the complex dynamics of your financial journey and transform it into a liberating exploration of self-identity? Joined by the insightful Dr. Michael Thomas, our host Ed Coambs journey through the intricate world of financial intimacy, unearthing the power of understanding our personal money journey to overcome past traumas and experiences. They acknowledge the universality of conversations about money, race, and identity that extend beyond any singular culture, setting the stage for a comprehensive discussion about embracing vulnerability and authenticity while navigating economic systems.

                                               

                                              Michael and Ed then approach the idea of speaking in our unique, unapologetic voice, despite potential criticism. They ponder the concept of aligning with our money - a transformative process that's intimately tied to understanding ourselves. As they scrutinize the social capital theory, they underscore the freedom and strength that comes from being authentic, regardless of the system you're in.

                                               

                                              They emphasize the need for empathy and historical context, particularly in the context of black financial culture. They delve into attachment theory and the urgent need for financial empathy in an era plagued by financial shaming. Finally, they reflect on establishing financial boundaries with compassion, empowering our parents to regain their financial agency without compromising their dignity. You’ll find all this and more in this special episode of Healthy Love and Money!

                                               

                                               

                                               

                                              Key Topics:

                                              •  Conversations Around Black Financial Culture (03:15)
                                              •  “This is Not Your Typical Personal Finance Book” (07:42)
                                              •  Dealing with Rejection (14:53)
                                              •  The Elements of the Social Capital Theory (17:21)
                                              •  Financial Empathy (26:04)
                                              •  The N.U.R.S.E Acronym (27:40)
                                              •  The Cosby Show in Context of Black Families (41:32)
                                              •  How Michael’s Mother’s Money Perspective Changed (45:06)
                                              •  Focusing on Relationship Over Money (47:49)
                                              •  Michael’s Parting Wisdom (53:28)

                                              •  

                                                 

                                                 

                                                Resources:

                                                • Black Financial Culture (book)
                                                • BlackFinancialCulture.com

                                                •  

                                                   

                                                   

                                                  Connect With Healthy Love and Money:

                                                  1.   Schedule your free 30-Minute Discovery Call About Therapy-Informed Financial Planning™.
                                                  2.   Learn about your money and attachment style with this short Attachment Style Quiz.
                                                  3.   Buy the Double Award Winning Book: The Healthy Love and Money Way. 
                                                  4.   Hit Follow on Your Favorite Podcast Player To Get the Latest Episodes.

                                                  5. 57 min
                                                  6. How Couples Can Use Internal Family Systems to Foster Financial Intimacy with Debra Kaplan and Rick Kahler

                                                    Our host Ed Coambs dives deeper into the complexities of financial therapy for couples in this powerful episode of Healthy Love and Money with esteemed guests, Debra Kaplan and Rick Kahler. As authors of the insightful book, Coupleship Inc., they share their extensive knowledge on fostering financial intimacy and understanding money's role in relationships. Together, they explore the power dynamics, power struggles, and the importance of balance and staying curious in money conversations.

                                                     

                                                    They delve into the fascinating world of Internal Family Systems (IFS) therapy and its application to financial therapy. Debra and Rick reveal how IFS can provide a unique perspective on our relationships with money and the challenges that couples face. Moreover, they discuss the crucial differences between financial therapists and financial planners, and how IFS connects to money scripts.

                                                     

                                                    Debra and Rick offer valuable insights on recognizing the signs of financial stress and utilizing financial therapy to build trust and cooperation in relationships. Learn how to understand the dynamics of family and couples' money, preventing and managing money-related stress, and fostering financial intimacy in your relationships.

                                                     

                                                    Key Topics:

                                                    • About Debra (02:38)
                                                    • About Rick (04:28)
                                                    • Couples Therapy and Relationships (06:58)
                                                    • Language Around the IFS Theory (17:05)
                                                    • IFS Separates Yourself from the Part (24:17)
                                                    • Cognition and Emotion (30:15)
                                                    • The Difference between Financial Planning and Financial Therapy (37:46)
                                                    • Rick and Debra’s Parting Pieces of Advice (47:40)

                                                    •  

                                                      Resources:

                                                      • Coupleship Inc: From Financial Conflict to Financial Intimacy
                                                      • DebraKaplanCounseling.com
                                                      • Advanced-Wellbeing.com
                                                      • KahlerFinancial.com
                                                      • The Financial Therapy Podcast - It's Not Just About The Money

                                                      •  

                                                         

                                                        Connect With Healthy Love and Money:

                                                        1.   Schedule your free 30-Minute Discovery Call About Therapy-Informed Financial Planning™.
                                                        2.   Learn about your money and attachment style with this short Attachment Style Quiz.
                                                        3.   Buy the Double Award Winning Book: The Healthy Love and Money Way. 
                                                        4.   Hit Follow on Your Favorite Podcast Player To Get the Latest Episodes.

                                                        5. 51 min
                                                        6. How To Help Brothers Support Their Sisters Healing From Sexual Abuse With Keeper Catran Whitney

                                                          The time is now to stand up as brothers against the sexual abuse of our sisters.

                                                           

                                                          In today’s episode of Healthy Love and Money, Ed Coambs speaks with Keeper Catran Whitney who shares his family's incredible story of healing from trauma. Over a span of 45 years, Keeper takes us through his family's journey of dealing with the heart-wrenching revelation of his stepfather's molestation of his sisters, and their mother's knowledge of it. Ed and Keeper explore the impact on the family and the challenges faced by the brothers who struggle to support their sisters in their recovery, all while being told to keep silent about the abuse.

                                                           

                                                          As they discuss this harrowing experience, they also highlight the lack of resources available for brothers seeking to help their sisters and the need for a safe space for healing. Keeper's story serves as a vital reminder of our responsibility towards our siblings and the importance of breaking the silence surrounding family trauma.

                                                           

                                                          This heart-wrenching conversation is a testament to the strength of the human spirit and the power of family healing. Listen as they explore how Keeper's family managed to rise above their past and find hope, happiness, and healing against all odds. If you or someone you know is struggling with similar issues, this episode serves as a beacon of hope and a reminder that healing is possible.

                                                           

                                                           

                                                           

                                                          Key Topics:

                                                          • Keeper’s Early Family History (0:02:31)
                                                          • The Journey of Healing from Trauma (0:14:15)
                                                          • Why Brothers Must Step into the Gap (0:25:24)
                                                          • Recognizing that You’re a Victim (0:30:22)
                                                          • The Innocence of Children Lost (0:56:11)
                                                          • Finding Closure by Confrontation (1:03:27)
                                                          • Sexual Abuse Can Happen Anywhere (1:15:07)

                                                          •  

                                                            Resources:

                                                            • HELPLESSNESS: The Mental Health Trauma Brothers Experience After We Learn Our Sisters Have Been Sexually Abused By Our Parents (book)
                                                            • KeeperCatranWhitney.com

                                                            •  

                                                              Connect With Healthy Love and Money:

                                                              1.   Schedule your free 30-Minute Discovery Call About Therapy-Informed Financial Planning™.
                                                              2.   Learn about your money and attachment style with this short Attachment Style Quiz.
                                                              3.   Buy the Double Award Winning Book: The Healthy Love and Money Way. 
                                                              4.   Hit Follow on Your Favorite Podcast Player To Get the Latest Episodes.

                                                              5. 1 hr 21 min

                                                              About Healthy Love & Money: Financial Therapy, Intimacy, Conflict & Communication for Couples

                                                              From the publisher's feed

                                                              Why did you spend so much money on… Couples have fights, disagreements, and misunderstandings about money all the time. This is normal, but is it healthy for your relationship? The solutions to money differences are not always as apparent as smart couples would think.

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