Andrew returns with his latest blueprint for a gothic mystery, and the coaching quickly zeroes in on what will make it work: a clear, compelling villain and twists that truly land. With help from thriller coach and Thrillerfest executive director Samantha Skal, the discussion unpacks the hidden layer of the story—what the villain is actually doing—and how that contrasts with the protagonist’s assumptions.

As they dig in, it becomes clear that strengthening the mystery means making the murders more personal, introducing a convincing false suspect, and mapping both the visible story and the truth underneath it. By the end, Andrew has a sharper path forward: deepen the villain’s motive, raise the stakes earlier, and build each twist so it feels both surprising and inevitable.

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About Book Coach Sam Skal

A fan of the scary, mysterious, and suspenseful, Samantha Skal is the Executive Director of ThrillerFest, the co-founder of Shadows & Secrets writing retreats, and an Author Accelerator-certified book coach who specializes in coaching mystery, thriller, horror, and suspense authors. Sam writes stories that keep her up at night, is a breast cancer survivor, and lives in the beautiful Pacific Northwest. Learn more at www.samanthaskal.com and www.shadowsandsecrets.com.

Catch Up on Andrew’s Hot Seat Coaching Journey

Transcript

Hi, I’m Jennie Nash, and you’re listening to the #amwriting podcast, the place where we help writers of all kinds play big in your writing life, love the process, and stick with it long enough to finish what matters most.

This is a hot seat coaching episode where we work through a real challenge in real time.

And today we’re back talking with Andrew Perella, the hashtag am writing podcast producer who has stepped out from behind the mic to work on a novel. And where we left Andrew last time was you’d worked through the whole blueprint and you were tasked with completing. Inside outline. So before we get into our guest and, um, what we’re gonna do today, how was that, what was it like for you?

Um, I mean, it was, it was, uh, really hard. Uh, but it was, it was, uh, it was really gratifying and it was, it was a lot of fun to do as well. Um. Because I think, um, part of, part of the assignment, you, you, you left for me, [00:01:00] Jenny, was to also beef out certain elements of certain, certain, the presence of certain characters, um, and certain and certain elements of the book.

And so I was trying to do that as well as. As, as crafting the outline. Um, and so yeah, it was, it was a long, it was a struggle. It was a struggle, especially to get it to three, to keep it to three, to get it down to three pages. I know, and I’m very strict about that for reasons you are. Um, and. Did you feel a sense of accomplishment when you did it though?

Like, oh, this is a book and I’m writing it, or how did that land? Yeah, I mean, like at first I just started writing. I started writing the scene bullets and the, and the points, and just started like, okay, what are all the, what are all the elements that that. I have in my head that I need to get down onto paper and it was like 6, 7, 8 pages.

And I was like, okay, now I gotta get this down to three pages. Um, and, and, and I was like, okay, I can combine these two scenes or maybe I don’t need this. So I just ended up cutting a lot and cutting a lot [00:02:00] and getting it down. So like, yes, there was a sense of like. Completion. Um, that was certainly gratifying, uh, to get that.

And, uh, I had a couple of late nights, um, getting that, getting that squared away, but yeah, it also feels, feels more real now. Um, and it’s like, yeah, there’s, there’s, there’s a, there’s a there here, which I’m pretty excited about. I’m excited about too, and I’m also excited because we’re doing something really cool today.

Um, and we have with us Samantha Skull, who I will introduce in a hot second. But hi Samantha. Hi. Thanks so much for having me. I’m so excited to be here. Well, I’m excited too because, um. Sam, as I call her, um, I’ve known for quite some time. She’s one of the OG author, accelerator certified coaches. And Sam, you actually don’t know this, but I use you.

Probably every day.

Oh my God, I’m so flattered as an example of [00:03:00] what a great book coach should do, which is to focus and choose who you’re gonna serve and how you’re gonna serve them, and to really go deep into what you love and what you wanna do all day. Right? The read books all day and get paid for it thing like do what you love and you.

Do that. You’ve done that just so powerfully and it’s so visible on your website, which we’ll link to in the show notes so folks can go see, but. Sam loves all the dark and suspenseful and scary mystery, twisty things, which always just cracked me up because I don’t, and that’s what’s so beautiful about book coaching and writing for that matters.

Everybody has their own thing and, and that’s part of the work of writing Big is. What is your thing? You know? So the reason that I wanted Sam to come is she’s built a whole business on this type of work and with, um, another author, [00:04:00] accelerator coach, she runs a really cool, uh, writing retreat that is, um, it’s always in Salem.

Right. It is in a haunted hotel, which, um, Carrie Savage, who is my co-founder in shadows and secrets, uh, loves being haunted. I do not choose to be haunted, so I choose the non haunted floor. So they have that retreat and they, um, have just started taking it virtual and just all kinds of tools and resources and things for people writing this kind of work.

And in addition to that, I. I just am always impressed by your trajectory of having gone from. A volunteer at the Thriller Fest. Well, for a participant at the Thriller Fest conference to being a volunteer, to running the Pitch Fest piece of the thing. And now you’re, well then you were co-director, now you’re running the whole thing.

You’re, you’re, yes, I am. You’re running the entire [00:05:00] Thriller Fest conference, which is how many writers every year. Oh, we have around a thousand and I have a team behind me. Just to be clear. This would not happen without a village, but uh, yes, we have around a thousand thriller authors who come to New York and we, uh, we talk about the dark stuff all week.

It’s absolutely the, the best time. And it’s in two weeks. I can’t, I mean, when this comes out, it may have already passed, but yeah, can’t wait. No, this is coming out right before, so if anybody wants a quick getaway to New York, they should go. But also just the programming, watch the programming coming out of it and we’re so excited.

Yeah, it’s really good. So, um, I just, I love the career you’ve built for yourself. It’s always just really inspiring to me. And, um, also a recent breast cancer survivor, so we’re, uh, always wanna shout out to that. Yes. Get your scans. That’s my PSA. Always love it. Same. Love it. Love it. So I wanted Sam to come look at Andrew’s inside [00:06:00] outline because I knew that the thing he has to work on is this, what I call in my not totally expertise in this area.

I call the twisties of it. That there’s a, you know, it’s a mystery. It’s a murder, it’s a gothic, it’s horror. It’s all the things. And it, those twists have to land. And this is so much Sam’s expertise that the whole time I was talking to Andrew about it and guiding him and coaching him, I just kept thinking, we need Sam in here.

So, so we got Sam in here. And so, um, Andrew completed his inside outline and Sam very graciously, um, agreed to look through it and to look through his whole blueprint. So before we get into what you saw and what you found, Sam. I just love to hear, I mean, this is so self-serving. I just like nothing more than reading a blueprint.

I think it’s so fun. Um, just to like, [00:07:00] kind of peel back the, the cover and see what’s in there. Did, did you have fun with that? Oh my gosh. So much fun. Andrew. This story is, is so cool. And I love the historical elements and the rethinking of, you know, vampires are running around London and everyone’s just like, that’s fine.

You know, and then how does, how does this all go down? And we have this very agency filled, moxie filled main character who’s just a delight and yeah, I loved it. I have, I have so many fun questions to ask you. So Andrew, how does that feel? I mean, it feels great and I, I was reading through, uh, through both of your notes, um, in the, in the, in the outline and like you’re asking all of these questions.

Um. Some of them that I have not thought of before and like, so I’m, so I’m really excited to kind of dig into these and talk through them. But I’m, I’m, it’s really gratifying to hear that this, that this idea is, is, is, is an interesting one. Yeah. I loved it. I a hundred [00:08:00] percent read this book. I’d, I’d see it and be like, yes, I want, I want to be in that world.

Cool. Well that’s why you’re here. Because I would be like, no, too scary. Too scary for me. So, um, I’m gonna let. Sam sort of take it away and, uh, we could talk for days, I’m sure about this, but one of the, the things I love about book coaches who are well trained is they’ll hone in on the most important, the most important things.

So. What do you think, Sam? What’s the most important thing Andrew should be thinking about in his next iteration of this outline? Yeah, so my favorite thing to talk about outta the gate with Mr. Thriller and suspense and gothic horror, depending on how dark you wanna make this, um, is who is the person who’s really behind all these murders and why are they committing them?

Right? I like to think of MTS mystery full or suspense as the villain’s journey as experienced by the [00:09:00] protagonist. Mm-hmm. Right. So we, we must know what’s going on beneath the surface in order for those twists to land, because twists are just assumptions about what’s going on that the protagonist makes.

And when the truth, you know, what’s really going on with the villain is revealed, it’s twisty because it’s unexpected. Mm-hmm. So if we don’t, therefore if we don’t know who’s. Who’s behind, who’s doing all these villainous things. Um, we struggle to make those twists land and we struggle to get a blueprint that we can actually follow.

So tell me your thoughts on who this mastermind murderer is and why they’re doing what they’re doing. Um, so. So Jack Seward is the, is the, is the Mastermind behind this. And I’ve been, I’ve been thinking a lot about it this week since I, since I finished the, since I finished the outline. And a lot of other things have occurred to me about who this gentleman is and how he’s doing what he’s doing.

But I think the why is, um, he is committed to the status quo. He is committed [00:10:00] to, uh, uh, uh, uh, a, you know, uh. He is committed to the manosphere. He is committed to the patriarchy. He has committed to, um, the previous way of doing things. Um. In, in, in society, in politics, in medicine. And so like he’s seeing this sea change, um, in all of those areas.

Um, with the advent of this, of this, um, medical school for women, uh, with the, with this vote, um, vote, uh, that is happening. Um, and he disapproves and so his goal is to disrupt all of those, um. Disruptions di uh, by pitting them against each other. Got it. So if he can, if he can. Create this illusion that vampires are preying on Suffr jets.

They will be too busy fighting each other to try and find any sort of, uh, agency for [00:11:00] themselves. Aha. Very, very well thought out. I love that. As a, as a mastermind villain goal. So here’s the other thing, is that mm-hmm. In the genre expectation for any sort of modern mystery, full or suspense, is that we have three twists.

We have one at the mid and we can have more. Right. But we have one at the midpoint, which is just the midpoint turn. Like it’s, it’s a classic story thing, which you already have. You have a great midpoint currently. Mm-hmm. Um, and the climactic twist is the reveal of, uh, as, as Carrie, my co-founder and shadows and secrets likes to say, um, the climactic.

Confrontation answers the story question, which is presented in the inciting incident and typically in mysteries, the inciting incident is who’s doing the killing? Right? Like, who’s behind this dead body that we have early on? And we’ll talk about that in just a second. Um, so the climactic answers that question, and then we have a final twist, which is typically the reveal of this gentleman who wants to keep things as is.

And he [00:12:00] meanwhile. During the course of the story is going to be taking action to stop, uh, our plucky protagonist from stopping him, right? Mm-hmm. So he’s a full antagonist to our protagonist. And in that way we need a fake villain, right? We need someone that he can have set up so that she thinks this is the person behind everything in the climactic scene.

And then she gets to the end and is like, oh my gosh, I’ve. You know, I’ve conquered, I’ve brought chaos to order, I’ve solved this thing, and now, oh my God, now there’s somebody else who’s actually behind everything. And actually we’re still in grave danger and we didn’t even know to be worried about this.

And that’s how you get that like, you know, 85 to 98% just ripping through the pages readers, you know, being so hooked to figure out what happened. Right. Um, so. Tell me a little bit more about who Seward could have set up or manipulated or something [00:13:00] else to commit these murders so that he gets done what he wants to get done, but he also protects himself.

And if you don’t know the answer, that’s okay. We can brainstorm. But if you do, then that’s great. So this is, this is kind of part of the, the, the thought, the idea that I’ve had since I, since I finished the, the, the, uh, the outline is. Because the, the syringe idea mm-hmm. The double-headed syringe idea always felt a little tenuous.

Uh, like I, I wasn’t quite sure that that was gonna hold, but, so my new thought about this is, is. Because he is, uh, he is the, uh, director of a mental institution. Um, and so, and so, like, that’s a whole other politic where he has people who are, uh, who are in his thra essentially. And so is there a way that he can coerce, um, a vampire who needs him to commit these murders on his behalf, thereby kind of insulating himself from the actions.

Perfect. And [00:14:00] so I think that could, so the climactic twist would then be. It’s a vampire I disco discovering that the, the, this is the vampires committing the murders. But then the, the, the final twist is, oh s**t, he’s been doing this at the behest of, of Seward, who’s her, you know, kind of Yes, yes. As it were in quotation.

Okay. Yes. That sounds amazing. And it also, you know, when we step into this story, um, in your initial scene, we have. Vampires feeding on people and Abby’s just like, uh, okay, that’s, that’s normal. Right? And so is that, did I read that right? Is that the world that we’re in? Is that We have vampires existing and Van Helsing, you know, was the one who kept them in check.

And we have all that like lore that we’re dealing with that the reader brings in. So tell me more about the world I’m walking into here. So, yeah, I think I’m still developing this world. So we’re 20 years. Around 20 years after the events of Dracula. Okay. The, the, the novel. And so, and I think, I think people are now aware that [00:15:00] vampires exist.

And I think, you know, at this, at the same time, they’re being used as like this bogey man or, or, or straw man of like, everything that is wrong with, with British society. Um, but they’re also. Not the monsters, right? They’re, they’re just another, another, um, community that is trying to, uh, eke out, eke out some sort of existence.

Um, I love that so much. It’s just such a fun, sort of new twist on. Know a story that’s so well known and has been in our collective conscience for a hundred years. You know, I don’t know when, when Dracula came out. Correct me if I’m wrong, but a long time, right? A little over a hundred years. Yeah. It’s been a minute.

It’s been a minute. Um, and so I, so it’s still very much a period of transition as, as you know, London and the world are still trying to figure out what that means, that these things actually exist and live among us. Um, and, uh, and so. There were [00:16:00] some things that didn’t make it into the outline like I had.

There was this one scene where they’re walking down the street and there’s someone on the soapbox at speaker’s Corner at Hyde Park who’s railing against, who’s railing against, uh, um, vampires as like a sturge on society and things of that nature. And, and there’ll be things in the newspaper. I think that kind of addressed this new, this new politic, um, that, that the characters interact with.

And so I’m still feeling out what exactly it means. That vampires exist and are part of the public consciousness. Yeah. So one sort of logical question that comes up for me there is, you know, if we’re in society and there’s just like monsters living among us who occasionally pick people off on the street, that would create a level of, um, extreme tension.

Okay. Right. One might say, right, like, yeah, if I’m wandering down the street and I see a vampire eating somebody that’s not just like a, you know, we would be taking steps to protect ourselves because humans are always going to protect themselves, and so yes. You [00:17:00] know what, if you change it where the vampires are only allowed to feed on like livestock or something.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. You know, something that’s like the, nobody’s happy, right? Yeah. Like, like most, uh, um, situations where we, we agree on something and we’re, we’re all giving something up. Yeah. But that allows them to exist in society and live among us. Right? Like the, the veil has been lifted. Vampires are here.

But they’ve agreed to only eat livestock, and then the fact that they’re murdering people by eating them then becomes. A huge deal. Right? Because this Deante that we’ve had with them is now broken. Mm-hmm. Um, something like that, because I think if we, if we have it just being casual that they’re, they’re eating people in alleys or whatever, it reduces, I mean, that’s a fun story, don’t get me wrong.

Yeah, yeah. But that reduces the impact of the murders that we are seeking to solve with this and Right. You know, you said this was, this was a mystery. And so currently [00:18:00] we don’t have a ton of mystery on the page like we have. The midpoint is where, um, she discovers that things might not be what they seem, which I love.

But in order for that to have impact, we need something earlier. And that could be, you know, these murders have been happening for a few days. That could be the last year. It could be she sees the first murder. Um. Something along those lines, but we need something early. So we, we understand the tension and we understand the mystery story question because you have a ton of other story questions in here, but if this is mystery first, the mystery story question needs to be who committed, who is committing these murders and why?

Yep. Yeah. Does that kind of, that makes sense? Land? Yes. No, absolutely. Absolutely. Okay. Now as a, as as I was, I was rereading the outline, the other, the other, the, the other night. And I was like, I feel, I feel like there needs to be another murder scene. Yeah. Earlier we gotta up the body count in the, the book.

Yeah. You know, it’s a, it’s a, it’s a conversation I have every day. [00:19:00] Yeah. Not, not enough dead bodies. Not enough dead. Not enough dead bodies. Yeah. So, you know, and so if she is, if she’s really worried about, you know, that’s their question is why, why is she so involved in solving these murders? How do we make it personal to her?

Mm-hmm. And so could this be a friend? Could this be. You know, um, a sister, could this be an aunt, like some something that’s related to her so that this person is taken out. And then that becomes Seward has targeted her because she’s the, she’s, you know, van sing’s niece, right? Yep. Yeah. So she’s a public figure that if he takes out by having a vampire.

Quote, you know, kill her. Then he will have achieved his goal of disrupting this whole thing and be like, look how dangerous it’s for women to be out in the world and you know. Mm-hmm. We should put a stop to this. Like that achieves his goal, but she won’t know. Right. Obviously that [00:20:00] that’s his goal. Right.

But he also needs to create the unrest, so it’s not just, you know, she’s the one who’s murdered. That’s going to be the climactic plan and he will have killed other people in the meantime. Right. Okay. Something like that. Like we need to make, yeah. Whatever it is that needs to be personal to her. And if she paint, if she paints a target on her back later on by being a ksky, amateur sleuth, which is classic.

Um. That works well as well. But I like, you know, one of the questions I love to ask is, what was your villain doing on the day that their prote, the pro protagonist, decided to ruin their life by deciding to go after and stop them from villain. And so maybe she had nothing to do with any of this and she’s researching and becomes a problem.

That’s the other way you could play it. Mm-hmm. Um. But, you know, if he has this grand plan and he’s like, Ooh, Abby would make a great sort of like, figurehead to the end of all these murders, and that’s the one that I’m gonna point at it and be like, [00:21:00] look, we can’t, you know, I, we can’t have these women out here.

Right? Something like that could work well. Um, what do you think? What, what’s, what’s your brain do when I say all those things? Um, it’s interesting. I hadn’t considered, I hadn’t considered that her uncle would be targeting her. One of the things I’ve been grappling with was like. One of the reasons he targets people around her is to scare her away from med school to scare her away from the cause, okay.

Um, and kind of pin her in further to the existing, to the existing, um, um, status quo. Um, and so I hadn’t considered him using her. Sacrificing her for his, uh, for his ultimate goals. Yeah. Um, and that’s an in, that’s an interesting idea. And, and if she were to discover that would certainly up to stakes, um, that would certainly up to stakes for her.

It would. And so if you want him to be a little more [00:22:00] empathetic Right. We don’t need to go like full dark if you don’t want to. Right. Um, he could be trying to protect her. By killing other people, which is misguided. Yeah. But, uh, fun. Right? And then that would make sense. So when she figures out it’s actually him, he could be like, I was doing all of this to protect you because I love you.

You’re in my family. Right? Yeah. That also works. But we need to have whatever his, his plan is for causing, you know, using these murders to achieve his goal. If she’s, she needs to be the target of it so that it’s very personal to her as she moves through this story. Um, and upping the stakes is always great.

It amps the tension, right? Yeah. And again, she’s not gonna know any of this until she gets to that final twist. And so one of like the most fine chilling, you know, tingly things that you can do with mysteries is that reveal at the very end. We as through the protagonist, understand how much danger we were in [00:23:00] this entire story, and we had no idea.

Right? And that moment is the one that we’re seeking with readers and for ourselves, right? It’s like, how do we have that moment that reveal have the biggest impact possible? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Something like that. Yeah. I, I see Andrew just grinning, like, what are you, whatcha feeling? He’s just like, got his giant grin on his face.

I mean, like, and like I said, I’ve been trying to figure out how, because it, because as I was reading, as I was reading through the outline, it did feel like, like abriana was just kind of like adjacent to mm-hmm. All of the murders. Um, and, and Jenny, you and I had talked about whether there was an active investigation and, and, and Sam, I think you kind of alluded to that in, in the notes, is there, is there an active investigation and like, is she, is, is Abriana being.

Is, uh, uh, coroner does a suspect by the, by the investigators. Um, is that, why, is that why she is doing her own investigation? Um, [00:24:00] which is another, which is another way to to, to up the stakes. Mm-hmm. Also, um, I, yeah, I’m, I’m, that’s an interest, that’s an interesting way though to, that’s an interesting take on Seward, who’s, um, an avuncular figure.

He’s not, like, he’s not a blood relation. To Abriana, but like he is, he is determined in his goal and like, you know, he would, he probably would stop at nothing to get that done, even if it meant, even if it meant, uh, the daughter of a friend of his got killed. Yeah, I mean, just thinking through, and this is your homework, really, is to think through how dark do you want to make him, right?

Because you can have a villain who starts off with. A, uh, a goal and decides to achieve it through very ill-advised means, but still wants to protect the people around them, right? Like they can be both. We don’t have to have it be a hundred percent. [00:25:00] This person is so evil and willing to burn it all down, right?

And so, but that can also be a series of bad decisions. It’s like bad decision one leads to, oh my God, like people are finding out that these aren’t really vampires. Now I have to really like double down to make it really seem like vampires, so I don’t get caught. Because guess what, if I get caught, my life is ruined.

Right? And you know, as Abby gets closer, he realizes. I have to kill her. Right? Yeah. She’s, she’s gonna ruin everything. Yeah. And that sort of angst and that, you know, that would be very painful for him. That could be the thing that when she confronts him at the end, and there will be a de Ma, right? We’re gonna have something where he’s like, I did all these things for this reason.

And it doesn’t have to be Yeah. Pages, but we do have a, that’s a classic mystery thing. Mm-hmm. She’ll understand if you like this, that you know, he was trying to protect her and then. He’ll be like, you did this to yourself. You know, like, right. Yeah. You’re the one who got in the way. Um, something like [00:26:00] that.

And he’s like, mm-hmm. My only choice now is to kill you. And then of course she will not allow that because she’s our lucky protagonist and will survive because chaos will be brought to order. That’s the other big thing is we wanna wrap this up unless you’re going who, in which case. It gets worse at the very end.

Um, is, is that, is that, is that allowed? Yeah, we, yeah. Well, to keep chaos on the chaos, absolutely. We just need it genre bending is. So hot right now, right? Um, and it’s really fun, right? So you can have both, you can have the main mystery wrapped up, like she can, Abby can figure out, okay, this wasn’t actually vampires and someone is posing as a vampire.

And so that actually changes your midpoint, by the way. We’ll talk about that in a second. But if that’s the arc, right? She thinks it’s vampires. She is, when she does the climactic confrontation, she’s like, it’s vampires like someone, you know, what are they doing? Why are they doing this? And then realizes [00:27:00] in that, that it wasn’t vampires and it’s actually someone else.

Um, the chaos will be brought to order in that way, right? Like we have, we have a right, we have figured out that someone was posing as a vampire. But what if you have a final, final twist where you know, there actually are vampires. Killing people as well. Like seaward only admits to three of these murders and then there’s someone else doing, you know, and it’s just like we end it with like, oh no.

You know? Right. Yeah. Or by, maybe there’s something mystical with like by imitating a vampire or that, you know, the vampires have been gathering their energy for the last 20 years by feeding on goats and you know, they’re ready to, we need a new van Helsing to, to keep them under control or something. And Abby takes up that mantle and, you know.

You can, you can totally play it where there’s an unanswered. Okay. Oh no, it’s worse at the end, but we do need some sort of wrap up of the story. Gotcha. But there does seem to be some cover resolution. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. I see what you’re saying. That makes sense. Yeah, that makes sense. So it strikes [00:28:00] me, I’m not sure that you picked this up, Sam, and you might not have, but that there’s a.

Uh, um, Mina the Vampire. Mina, yeah, yeah, yeah. Is is her mother. Right. I did pick up on that, and that’s a question I have. Okay. Yeah. Great. Because it seems like what you’re all talking about that could play a really important role in any of these twists and arcs. Right. I. Yes. Yes. Plus one. Yeah. Everything you just said.

Um, yeah. So Mina being her mother, fantastic. One of your final twists, right? And particularly if you have Seward being like the final confrontation, final twist person, and then, you know, you have this lovely final scene where she’s like, oh my God, it’s my mother. Um, yeah. But the logical question there is why would Mina Hyde, what’s she after?

Why would she not have tried to help Abby? Right? Because you’re dealing with reader expectations that mothers will do anything to protect their children. Right? And so you can, we can twist that. Maybe she is trying to protect her from what’s coming, right? [00:29:00] Like what’s actually going on. Maybe she’s the one who’s been protecting her the whole time by warding off the vampires that have been attacking her, her friends at medical school.

Um. And that’s why there’s so many mistaken identity things, right? Because you have two where, where Abby’s like, whoops. I think that was supposed to be for me. Yeah. Um, and so the reader’s gonna wonder why are they so bad at killing her, right? Like, if these were assassin attempts, like why wouldn’t what, what’s going on?

And so that answers that question. If it’s Mina stepping in, but you know, we need to understand what Mina’s really after and why she didn’t step forward sooner. That’s a huge question that, you know, yeah. Everyone will have. Yeah, it is a huge question. Like, like where has she been for the last 18 years?

Mm-hmm. Why has Aubrianna not seen her since, since, since her birth? Um, and I haven’t quite nailed that down yet. Like, is there some sort of like vampire code? I don’t like, I don’t know. Is it, is it that she’s, is that she, that Mina. Knows [00:30:00] Jonathan, her husband too well, and knows that, that he would not allow a vampire, uh, to interact with his children.

Like. And so I think there, I think there are a couple of answers to that, but I haven’t like, landed on one yet. Um, but I, like, I, I like the idea of Mina working kind of behind the scenes to protect, to actively protect, um. Abriana, which is what that, that opening that, that, that scene in the alley earlier on is about, is like she comes to her aid at that point.

Um, and, uh, and, and and physically puts herself between, between Abri and Abriana and the violence, which Abriana misunderstands, uh, and runs away terrified. But I think, I, I think there are ways to incorporate that, as you say. Elsewhere in the, elsewhere in the story. Yeah. Well, I mean she, to make to a fantastic twist would be, she assumes Mina is the one after her, right?

Right. Yeah. Like she recalls in this opening scene that Mina was coming at her and is like, Ooh, that’s the vampire that wants to kill me. Yeah, yeah. And [00:31:00] you know, sees her around. And so that’s her assumption. And this is how you create twists, right? Her assumption is that Nina is the person behind all of this, and why, but.

You run the risk of when she starts investigating Mina and figuring out who she is? It would be, we’d figure out we need some very good reason that she couldn’t figure out that was that Mina was her mother, right? Yeah. Yes. So in that case, I would suggest having some other vampire be the one that she thinks is behind everything.

Um, which leads me to the midpoint. So currently this is where she discovers that these bite marks are not bite marks at all. They are. Other Marks syringes. Right, right. Like the, yeah. Yeah. Um, so if that’s the midpoint, which I like, again, that means that she’s going to assume that there is a human or a vampire who’s lost her teeth.

I don’t know, um, behind all of this. And the climactic confrontation will be with that, [00:32:00] with that knowledge that this is not a vampire doing these villainous things. Um. So how does that feel? Like do if, do we, is there someone in the cast that we can sort of have her assume is that person that’s not Seward.

Not, not someone that I’ve identified yet. Um, okay. But I, I, I, I agree with you. We need, we need someone that she, that she’s pursuing and, uh, in, at, in, in that sense. Um, and, and she believed, I, I, I see, I see. Now I see what you’re saying. That the, the importance of her making that, that, that incorrect assumption that this is the person who’s, who’s doing, who’s doing the, the killings.

And I don’t know who that is yet. I don’t know if there’s someone actively in the, in the cha in the cast that we have, or if I need, if I need a new character. Okay. I mean, you can also play with, you know, so this is the thing about mysteries, it gets very quickly complicated, is on the surface we have all the assumptions which are incorrect.

[00:33:00] Right? Right. And so we have to build up that, those plots and make it plausible. Yeah. Because we need, you know, the example I like to give is like, let’s say you, you come home and you’re expecting that no one else is there and there’s an open window and there is a earring back on the counter and a bloody footprint on your.

You know, nice white carpet and you know, um, a knocked over plant and then you recall, oh yes, you know the nab I’ve been babysitting the neighbor’s cat, they knocked over the plant. So that’s solved. But this bloody footprint is really freaking me out because clearly somebody came in here and made a bloody footprint and that’s terrifying.

You’re focusing on the bloody footprint because that’s the most obvious thing, but the earring back is the thing that is the villain clue. Right, and that, that’s the person that came in and misled you by putting the bloody footprint on the carpet for reasons, capital R, whatever it is in this story, right?

But we have clocked on screen, on the page what the clue is and ignored it. And so yeah, [00:34:00] this is how you can go back in on a revision and you know, you maybe we don’t know who this other person is that’s actually doing this, but they will have a vested interest in not being caught. Right? Mm-hmm. And so these little clues that we put on the page later are ignored, and then we’re following the story that we’ve already created.

Mm-hmm. Um, but keeping track of all these layers feels complicated, which is why Jenny’s outline with three pages is so, so useful. Um, right. Because what the, what’s on the page is the, is the story that you already, that we’re focusing on, right? Mm-hmm. And then what really happened? Mm-hmm. Is the thing beneath the surface that we don’t learn until the truth is revealed in one of these twists.

Does that make sense? Yeah, yeah. No, that absolutely makes sense. That Absolutely. That also feels like a lot to think about. It is. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I don’t have, I don’t have enough red earrings. I don’t have enough mis, I don’t have enough misdirecting. Misdirecting clues, as it were. Right. Well, those are fun to brainstorm, right?

Because we start thinking [00:35:00] about who really, it comes back to Seward. Like what would he be doing to misdirect Abby away from this? Right. To keep her safe, if you like that as a goal. Yeah. And also to make the, make society freak out about how vampires are killing again. Mm-hmm. Um, what would he plant, who would he manipulate?

Who would he pay off? You know? Mm-hmm. Maybe there’s a vampire who knows about all of this, and. Is trying to kill the person that Seward is hired to do the syringes because Seward’s not going around and doing this. Abby would’ve seen him or you know mm-hmm. Recognized him or something. So he will have paid someone to, or it has someone in his organization who also believes in the cause.

Yeah. And is doing this, and maybe that person’s a vampire. I don’t know. I do love the double syringe. I mean, I hope that stays. Yeah. Yeah. It’s good. It’s good. Is it? Yeah. I heard you say, I heard you kind of dismiss it, Andrew, but it, to me, that would be a perfect misdirection if [00:36:00] somebody finds that and now there’s this whole thread of assumptions about what that means and Yeah, but that it’s not really what it is or it’s not being used the way we think, or so.

Oh, okay. Yeah. Okay. Sam, you mentioned something because I was, I was getting close to like throwing that overboard. No, it’s good. No. Okay. Okay. I think it is good. So, so, so, so, but that could still be, that could still be used as a, that could still, I could still use it as a red herring potentially, uh, because it could still be a vampire at Seward’s behest committing the murders.

But maybe they’re doing it with the syringe or maybe they’re, and or maybe they’re doing it a little bit with their own or Right. Or not. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, to Jenny’s point, this could be a total, maybe. Maybe it’s not used for what we think. Maybe the double syringe is something completely unrelated and it’s like the best way to draw out the.

I don’t know. I mean, depending on, maybe he is drugging the people in the [00:37:00] asylum, like giving them more drugs than they’re supposed to have. Right, right. And, and he devised, I mean, you know, devised a double syringe to deliver it and doesn’t want anybody to know that that’s what he is doing, you know? Yeah, yeah.

Okay. Yeah, yeah. But if you wanna play with the idea that there’s also a vampire involved who believes in Seward’s? Cause then that, you know. That’s very interesting because it’s like, well, why? What do they want? You know? Yeah, yeah. Or even just someone who is, is being coerced by him, who does, doesn’t necessarily Yes.

Believe in the cause, but is perhaps is, has perhaps been assigned to his asylum. Mm-hmm. And he’s taking advantage of, I love. Which I think, I think really makes sewer to a, a pretty despicable individual on a number of levels, which I, which I can like, well, I mean, he’s already killing people, so, right. You know, slippery slope.

But that’s what, you know, it’s, that’s the, [00:38:00] that’s the thing is that his, his goals. We need to make logical sense when we get to the end and Right. You know, Abby figures out what’s going on, but he, he can also be empathetic. Right? Yeah. Like, why is he so scared of women? Yeah. Being in society, what is, what is that deep fear about?

And that’s definitely something to explore as well. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah, so we could, like I said, talk for days, for days about these things, but, um, it feels like this is a good place to leave Andrew with a whole bunch of work to do. And I’m just laughing because, um, this is such a perfect example of.

Why we do a blueprint, right? There’s so much to work out. There’s so much to think about. There’s so many layers and levels to every story. And, uh, you know, we, we heard you today, Andrew, sort of going, well, I don’t know. I haven’t thought about it. I don’t know. I, I’ll have to see, you know, that’s, that’s the work and being in that.

[00:39:00] Discomfort and that not knowing mm-hmm. And the, all the possibilities and making your choices. That’s, that’s a work, right Sam? Like that’s, it is, it’s so fun. But yeah, it’s mysteries are puzzles, right? Yeah. And we wanna guide the reader through the puzzle in a way that gives them maximum impact and maximum joy.

For every reveal that we decide to put out there, right? We, we, we don’t want to casually have a reveal. Everything is on purpose. Um, and so I was gonna say on, on the inside outline that you have, um, a parallel one, or, you know, if you make it even tighter just to flow the flow of events, you can have a, what really happened?

Um, line which tracks what the villain is actually doing. And I do find that that can be really helpful because it does get overwhelming with figuring out, okay, we have assumptions. Yeah. And those assumptions are, you know, lead to action and this is how we get a repulsive plot. But those assumptions are.

Not going to be the [00:40:00] actual thing that is the truth. And so we need to track what the truth is and what our villain is doing to stop our protagonist from stopping them because Yeah, forces of opposition, you know, so just for our listeners to clarify that makes sense. What Sam’s talking about is a parallel inside outline is, is to literally do.

An a three page outline for the, the villain? Yes, yes. Or to put a bullet point or a, a subpoint on the protagonists inside. Outline that. Tracks that, um, sometimes people color code that. Mm-hmm. Yeah. You know, but the, that’s why we keep this so tight because if you start making it nine pages or 15 pages and then you layer these things, all of a sudden you have a 30 page outline, and now you’ve just got one of those giant story grid things that I find to be impossible to, to manipulate.

Like we still want this to be manipulatable, right. So that you [00:41:00] can. Hold it in your hands and see it and, and then get to a place where you say, I can write that story. I love this story. I can write this story. That’s, so that’s what we’re going for. So, yeah. Um, Sam, could you maybe just summarize, um, Andrew will take some time to work on this next iteration to show me.

Can you give him direction on key thing to think about and me direction on the key thing to look for? Yeah, of course. So the biggest thing is figure out what Seward’s really, why he’s really doing what he’s doing and how it relates directly to Abby. Right. What is, what action can he take that is about her, and that’s either protecting her or, you know.

Um, killing someone close to her to scare her away, but then why, right? Mm-hmm. So figure out the, figure out what he’s really doing, and then look and see what actions, what other actions would he take about who this other person [00:42:00] is that he’s framing or manipulating, or blackmailing or whatever. And if that’s a vampire, then.

You know, why does that work when we, when it’s revealed? Like, what else could be going on? That makes sense. Perhaps the vampires don’t want women and suffragettes to have this power because it threatens the power that they have in society currently, or something like that, or mm-hmm. Whatever it is. But figure out what, what’s really going on.

That’s your homework, that’s your big homework. Mm-hmm. And then, you know, for the next iteration. More murder on the page, right? We need the attention to rise and we need to understand why Abby, as she takes her steps based on assumptions, what are those assumptions? Why is she so personally invested in this?

Why doesn’t she just give up, right? Because that’s the big logical question that I always ask is for both the antagonist and your protagonist, why don’t they just walk away? Why do they keep doing this when it gets hard, right? Because when someone’s actively trying to [00:43:00] stop you as the protagonist is. For the antagonist, why would the antagonist not just be like, okay, this is too tough, right?

Like, I’m, I’m out, uh, this is, my goal isn’t going to be achieved. So why do they both keep going? And the answer is usually we’re in too deep, right? We can’t, the only way out is through, um, which is what the midpoint establishes. Usually. It’s like, well, shoot, you know, I can’t leave this story. I have to keep going.

Right? So the three twists, right? We want the assumptions to be present on the inside outline. So we have a midpoint twist. We have an inciting incident that presents the mystery story question, murder usually. Mm-hmm. And then climactic twist, who is this fake villain? And then final villain, Seward. And then final, final twist.

Mina is actually involved, right? And has been protecting her the whole time or whatever, right? Yeah. Okay. So on the page, assumptions is second part of that homework, but you have to figure out what really happened in order to have the assumptions, which are Yeah, not [00:44:00] right. Yeah. So drawing, drawing out those two timelines of the, what, what actually happened, timeline, and then the assumptions, timeline and how they, well, the assumptions are gonna be on the page, right?

Those will be on your protagonist inside outline, right? Because it, it informs her actions. And so everything you have about her fighting to go to med school and like all these things, all that works. All we’re doing is just tweaking it a little bit so that the mystery is more. Front and center, and she’s taking action based on, okay, I have this clue, what do I do?

Now I have this clue. What do I do now? What stands in the way of each time I do this? Oops, I’m wrong about that. So what now? You know? Okay. And in the meantime it’s clear that her personal stakes are rising and she is becoming a target. There’s more attempts on her life and, and you know, then what? Right.

Once you have a target on your back, you can’t run. Yeah. Yeah. So. Yeah. Make it scarier. That’s your homework. Yeah, I do. I do. I have to put her in [00:45:00] peril. I have to put her in peril. Right? You do. Yeah. Yeah. And the final thing I’ll mention about this is when you actually get to writing the way that you, even if it’s, even if the actions are a little less intense, right?

We don’t actually have an assassin coming at her every page because we’d get bored with that. So through interiority, through inner thought, she’s going to think about what she’s scared of throughout the entire book. Mm-hmm. It’s not just gonna be, oh, I assume this thing. It’s like I assume this thing. And also I’m terrified because you know what, if this is about that, and that’s how you create those red herrings too, is because she’s going to make assumptions about what’s happening, and those assumptions will be based in fear.

Right. Love it. Right. That makes sense. Love it. That makes sense. Thank you. My God. You’re so welcome. Love this story. Can’t wait to read it. Are you still with us, Andrew? You’re not. You’re not walking away. Right. You’re not like, I’m in too deep now. No. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Just past the midpoint. Yeah, I was gonna say good.

Good. No, that’s why, that’s why I’m, that’s why I’m grinning so [00:46:00] much. It’s like, it’s like, ‘cause we’re talking about this as if it’s an actual, real thing. It’s not just, it’s not just an idea that I’ve, I’ve, I’ve had and been, I’ve been telling my wife about this is an actual, this is an actual thing I’m talking with people about.

Um, and so this is, this is real. This is. It is real. It’s exciting. Um, we will, uh, see how this unfolds for Andrew and Sam, I just wanna thank you so much for joining us and talking about all this. Um, and I’m gonna tell our listeners that if you want this kind of twisty help, um, that’s Samantha’s website, which is samantha skull.com and that’s SKAL.

She has a really cool, um, very inexpensive twist. Course, which you can, um, take. It’s just awesome. And it’s, um, she got some blueprint stuff on there, all kinds of things. And you can learn also about the retreat that she runs with [email protected]. And you can go to Thriller [00:47:00] Fest and see all of the big work she’s doing for this community of writers out in the world.

So Sam, thank you for coming on. Oh, thank you so much for having me. And I just wanna say, Jenny, the reason that I focused, I mean, yes, I love this stuff and I have, I’ve loved it my whole life, but I listened to you. This was your. To focus in on what I love and I did. And it’s just the best I get to wake up every day and talk about murder, which sounds like a terrible hobby, but I love it.

So here we are. I know. That’s why I talk about you all the time. Maybe that’s it. ‘cause you listen to

I, I, uh, I push people a lot harder now, let’s put it that way. Um. Amazing. That’s, that is my craft. But thank you Andrew, again, for being so willing to be doing this in public. It’s not easy for those listening just to be on the hot seat like this for so long, so often really hard. So, um, you, [00:48:00] huge, huge shout out to Andrew and shout.

Um, just for our listeners, thanks for tuning in and let’s get back to work.

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