Everybody knows the stages of grief. Even if you didn’t go to grad school, I bet you can rattle them off. Thing is - those stages don’t help anyone: not the pros trying to support patients or clients, not the person trying to survive an impossible situation. 
 
Tune in for the inside scoop on the stages of grief and what we should be doing instead, with a special shout-out to the tv shows getting grief right.  
 
In this episode we cover:

Where the stages of grief came from, and why their creator was Less Than Pleased with what happened next
Whether an “innocent” mention of the stages of grief really matters in a movie or tv show (shout out to Netflix: HMU!) 
What to do if your boss asks you to support your co-workers through a death in the company
And much more, because I have a lot to say on these stages, apparently

 
We're re-releasing some of our favorite episodes from the first 3 seasons of It’s OK that You’re Not OK.
 
Looking for a creative exploration of grief? Check out the best selling Writing Your Grief course here.
 
Follow our show on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and TikTok @refugeingrief and @itsokpod on TikTok. Visit refugeingrief.com for resources & courses
 
About Megan: 
Psychotherapist Megan Devine is one of today’s leading experts on grief, from life-altering losses to the everyday grief that we don’t call grief. Get the best-selling book on grief in over a decade, It’s Ok that You’re Not OK, wherever you get books. Find Megan @refugeingrief
 
Additional resources:
Want to talk with Megan directly? Join our patreon community for live monthly Q&A; grief clinics: your questions, answered. Want to speak to her privately? Apply for a 1:1 grief consultation here. 
 
Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s OK That You're Not OK and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed
 
Books and resources may contain affiliate links. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Is It Time to Retire the Stages of Grief? (Spoiler: Yes)

Life is full of difficult things, from tiny everyday disappointments to life-altering events. Everyone’s at least a little bit Not OK, something grief expert and psychotherapist Megan Devine knows from the inside out. In wide ranging, insightful, deep conversations, Megan talks with people about their often invisible losses - and what they’ve learned about being seen and supported in difficult times. 
With guests pulled from the front lines of entertainment, medicine, education, and activism, the conversations in It’s OK that You’re Not OK are funny, complex, emotional, and hopeful - maybe not your typical dinner party topics, but none of us are entirely OK, and it’s time we start talking about that.
New episodes each and every Monday, from the author of the best-selling book, It’s OK That You’re Not OK, and iHeartMedia. Find Megan online at @refugeingrief &amp; follow the show @ItsOKPod

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Can you hide in plain sight?
From trans beauty pageants in the Philippines, to the catwalks of New York City fashion week, to the Ted Talk mainstage – Filipina-American model Geena Rocero has lived an astounding life. This week on It’s OK that You’re Not OK, the author of Horse Barbie: A Memoir shares what it costs to suppress your true self in order to find safety and success, and why joy is powerful medicine. 
Geena Rocero is a trans advocate, speaker, and author of the new book, Horse Barbie.
 
In this episode we cover: 

Why do we have to talk about gender all the time anyway?
How can parents support trans children? 
The history of trans beauty pageants in the Philippines
Why joy - and a sense of humor - are real survival tools

 
We're re-releasing some of our favorite episodes from the first 3 seasons. This episode was originally recorded in 2023.
 
Looking for a creative exploration of grief? Check out the best selling Writing Your Grief course here.



Related Episodes:
Coming Home to Yourself with Alex Elle
If I Survived, You Can Too! Author Emi Nietfeld on the Hollowness of the Transformation Narrative
Over and Over Again: Illustrator Aubrey Hirsch on the Power of Storytelling



About our guest:
Geena Rocero is a Filipina-American model, public speaker, author, and trans rights advocate. Ms. Rocero made history as the first trans woman ambassador for Miss Universe Nepal, and the first trans Asian Playboy Playmate of the Year. Her TED Talk, “Why I Must Come Out,” has been viewed over 3.7 million times. She’s an advisory board member of SeeHer, a global coalition working to increase representation and accurate portrayal of all women and girls in marketing, media, and entertainment. 
She’s spoken at the White House and United Nations, and has been featured on CNN, MSNBC, Glamour, Cosmopolitan, Vanity Fair, and Variety. Her book Horse Barbie: A Memoir was named one of the Best Memoirs of 2023 by Elle Magazine. Find her @geenarocero on Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter
 
About Megan: 
Psychotherapist Megan Devine is one of today’s leading experts on grief, from life-altering losses to the everyday grief that we don’t call grief. Get the best-selling book on grief in over a decade, It’s Ok that You’re Not OK, wherever you get books. Find Megan @refugeingrief
 
Additional Resources:
Watch Geena’s TED Talk “Why I Must Come Out”
 
Read Geena’s book - Horse Barbie: A Memoir 
 
Want to talk with Megan directly? Join our patreon community for live monthly Q&A; grief clinics: your questions, answered. Want to speak to her privately? Apply for a 1:1 grief consultation here. 
 
Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s OK That You're Not OK and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed
Books and resources may contain affiliate links. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Horse Barbie & Cultivating Trans Joy with Geena Rocero

Have you ever put on a face mask, expecting it to solve all your mental health problems? 
That seems…unrealistic, but it’s what self-care marketing tells us: get your self-care right, and all your difficulties will evaporate. 

This week on It’s OK, Dr. Pooja Lakshmin, author of Real Self-Care, breaks down what “self-care” actually means when we’re living in a complex, capitalistic world. It’s an exploration of grief, burnout, and exhaustion, and what it takes to care for yourself inside systems that repeatedly ignore their part in your suffering. 
 
In this episode we cover: 

Why self-care doesn’t work
How hope is different than optimism
Does looking for your own answers mean you have to do things alone?
Accepting help as a bid for connection
How Dr. Lakshmin’s definition of boundaries can help you practice real self-care

 
We're re-releasing some of our favorite episodes from the first 3 seasons. This episode was originally recorded in 2023.
 
Looking for a creative exploration of grief? Check out the best selling Writing Your Grief course here.
 
Follow the show on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and TikTok @refugeingrief
 
Related episodes:
Rage Becomes Her (and by “her” I mean US) with Soraya Chemaly
 
Living with Chronic Illness: A Conversation for Everyone with a Body with Sarah Ramey.



About our guest:
Dr. Pooja Lakshmin MD is a psychiatrist, a clinical assistant professor at George Washington University School of Medicine, and the founder and CEO of Gemma, the women’s mental health community centering impact and equity. She has spent thousands of hours taking care of women struggling with burnout, despair, depression, and anxiety in her clinical practice. Her debut non-fiction book, Real Self-Care: A Transformative Program for Redefining Wellness (Crystals, Cleanses, and Bubble Baths Not Included), is available in e-book, hardcover, and audiobook narrated by Pooja.
 
About Megan: 
Psychotherapist Megan Devine is one of today’s leading experts on grief, from life-altering losses to the everyday grief that we don’t call grief. Get the best-selling book on grief in over a decade, It’s Ok that You’re Not OK, wherever you get books. Find Megan @refugeingrief
 
Additional Resources:
Read “Hope is Not a Thing to Have – It’s a Skill to Practice” at Oprah Daily
 
Read “How Society Has Turned Its Back on Mothers” at The New York Times
 
Read “Saying ‘No’ Is Self-Care for Parents” at The New York Times
 
Want to talk with Megan directly? Join our patreon community for live monthly Q&A; grief clinics: your questions, answered. Want to speak to her privately? Apply for a 1:1 grief consultation here. 
 
Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s OK That You're Not OK and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed
Books and resources may contain affiliate links. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Real Self-Care with Dr. Pooja Lakshmin

We’re in a massive climate crisis, but it’s hard to think about it, isn’t it? 
It’s a great temptation to shut our eyes to climate change. It’s overwhelming. This week on the show, climate activist and author Bill McKibben on facing the reality of the climate crisis, understanding what needs to change, and what you can do - not just to change the course of humanity and the planet, but to feel more hopeful and connected as this all unfolds. 
 
In this episode we cover: 
 

Is halting climate change really dependent on personal recycling and whether we use plastic straws? 
Is it okay to have intense emotional responses to wildfires, floods, and the inaction of those “in charge”? 
How the boomer generation is using their experience and wealth to revisit the activism of their youth (and supporting younger activists at the same time)
How talking about our fears and our ecological grief gives us common ground to fight for our future - and our present. 




We're re-releasing some of our favorite episodes from the first 3 seasons. This episode was originally recorded in 2023.
 
Looking for a creative exploration of grief? Check out the best selling Writing Your Grief course here.



For more on activism in the face of impossible odds listen to these related episodes: 
Women, Life, Freedom: Grief and Power In Iran, with Nazanin Nour
Wonder in an Age of Violence with Valarie Kaur & See No Stranger



About our guest:
Bill McKibben is an American environmentalist, author, and journalist who has written extensively on the impact of global warming. His books include The End of Nature, about climate change, and Falter: Has the Human Game Begun to Play Itself Out?, about the state of the environmental challenges facing humanity. 
Bill is a contributing writer to The New Yorker (read his latest piece here), and founder of Third Act, which organizes people over the age of sixty for progressive change.
 
About Megan: 
Psychotherapist Megan Devine is one of today’s leading experts on grief, from life-altering losses to the everyday grief that we don’t call grief. Get the best-selling book on grief in over a decade, It’s Ok that You’re Not OK, wherever you get books. Find Megan @refugeingrief
Additional Resources:
Terry Tempest Williams’ book Refuge: An Unnatural History of Family and Place, and her recent NYT article on Utah’s great Salt Lake (gift link, no subscription needed)
 
Explore Joanna Macy’s work on the intersection of grief and activism at her website, or her books, including Coming Back to Life: The Updated Guide to the Work That Reconnects, World as Lover, World as Self, and Widening Circles: A Memoir
 
Want to talk with Megan directly? Join our patreon community for live monthly Q&A; grief clinics: your questions, answered. Want to speak to her privately? Apply for a 1:1 grief consultation here. 
 
Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s OK That You're Not OK and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed
Books and resources may contain affiliate links.
 
Follow our show on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and TikTok @refugeingrief
For more information, including clinical training and consulting and to share your thoughts, visit us at refugeingrief.com See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Is There Any Good News on Climate Change? with Bill McKibben

Can grief be an opportunity for growth and self-understanding? 

The answer, of course, is yes: but it’s a bit more complex than that. This week, author, philanthropist, activist Rachel Cargle on survival optimism, the resilience narrative, and why questioning the stories you tell yourself - with curiosity and kindness - is a powerful path of healing. 
 
In this episode we cover: 
 

How was grief modeled for you growing up, and how does that affect later grief?
Can your memory of childhood grief be… entirely wrong? (or at least, inaccurate)
Can you do grief wrong?
The difference between curiosity and judgment
Is it ok to feel relieved when a sick person dies? 
Rachel’s new book, A Renaissance of Our Own

 
We're re-releasing some of our favorite episodes from the first 3 seasons. This episode was originally recorded in 2023.
 
Looking for a creative exploration of grief? Check out the best selling Writing Your Grief course here.



Related episodes:
Gabor Mate on why we celebrate trauma, aka: resilience 
Illustrator Aubrey Hirsch on the power of storytelling as an act of healing



About our guest:
Rachel Cargle is a writer, entrepreneur and philanthropic innovator. Her new memoir, A Renaissance of Our Own, centers the reimagining of womanhood, solidarity and self. In 2018 she founded The Loveland Foundation, Inc., a non-profit offering free therapy to Black women and girls. 
 
She’s also the founder of Elizabeth’s Bookshop & Writing Centre, a literacy space designed to amplify, celebrate and honor the work of writers who are often excluded from traditional cultural, social and academic canons. For more on her many endeavors, visit rachelcargle.com.
 
About Megan: 
Psychotherapist Megan Devine is one of today’s leading experts on grief, from life-altering losses to the everyday grief that we don’t call grief. Get the best-selling book on grief in over a decade, It’s Ok that You’re Not OK, wherever you get books. Find Megan @refugeingrief
 
Additional Resources:
Read Rachel’s new book - A Renaissance of Our Own
 
The Great Unlearn – a self-paced, donation-based learning community
 
The Great Unlearn for Young Learners – an online learning space for young folks launching in 2022
 
Want to talk with Megan directly? Join our patreon community for live monthly Q&A; grief clinics: your questions, answered. Want to speak to her privately? Apply for a 1:1 grief consultation here. 
 
Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s OK That You're Not OK and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

A Renaissance of Our Own: The Stories We Tell Ourselves with Rachel Cargle

What would a meaningful life look like for you? 

According to Death Doula Alua Arthur, conversations about death can be the most enriching conversations we have. 
 
It’s not about accepting death, or avoiding grief - it’s about building a relationship with yourself and others that doesn’t hold anything back. Why should you listen? Yeah, because you’re mortal and one day you'll die, but more importantly: because one day, hopefully in the far off future, you’ll look back at this life you’ve lived. Conversations about death can make that life so much better. 
 
Alua’s new book is Briefly Perfectly Human: Making an Authentic Life by Getting Real about the End. For more info visit aluaarthur.com
 
In this episode we cover: 
 

What’s a Death Doula? 
Does being honest about death give you access to joy?
Should you tell someone that they’re dying, or does that remove hope? 
Why living each day like it’s your last is unrealistic (and what to do instead) 
The linking of death and grief: Death and grief are married, but grief definitely dates around. 

 
We're re-releasing some of our favorite episodes from the first 3 seasons. This episode was originally recorded in 2023.
 
Looking for a creative exploration of grief? Check out the best selling Writing Your Grief course here.



Related episodes:
Trauma Surgeon Dr. Red Hoffman on the surprisingly broad umbrella of palliative care
 
The co-founders of the New York Zen Center for Contemplative Care on supporting burnout & stress among healthcare professionals & caregivers



About our guest:
Alua Arthur is a Death Doula, recovering attorney, and the founder of Going with Grace, a Death Doula training and end-of-life planning organization that exists to support people as they answer the question, “What must I do to be at peace with myself so that I may live presently and die gracefully?” She’s been featured in the LA Times, Vogue, Refinery29, The Doctors, and alongside Chris Hemsworth on the docuseries, Limitless. Find her at aluaarthur.com and on Instagram at @going_with_grace 
 
About Megan: 
Psychotherapist Megan Devine is one of today’s leading experts on grief, from life-altering losses to the everyday grief that we don’t call grief. Get the best-selling book on grief in over a decade, It’s Ok that You’re Not OK, wherever you get books. Find Megan @refugeingrief
 
Additional Resources:
Read Alua’s new book - Briefly Perfectly Human
 
Going with Grace
 
Megan mentions this book -  Pronoia Is the Antidote for Paranoia
 
Want to talk with Megan directly? Join our patreon community for live monthly Q&A; grief clinics: your questions, answered. Want to speak to her privately? Apply for a 1:1 grief consultation here. 
 
Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s OK That You're Not OK and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Is It Time to Retire the Stages of Grief? (Spoiler: Yes)

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