Can grief be an opportunity for growth and self-understanding?

The answer, of course, is yes: but it’s a bit more complex than that. This week, author, philanthropist, activist Rachel Cargle on survival optimism, the resilience narrative, and why questioning the stories you tell yourself - with curiosity and kindness - is a powerful path of healing. 

 

In this episode we cover: 

 

• How was grief modeled for you growing up, and how does that affect later grief?
• Can your memory of childhood grief be… entirely wrong? (or at least, inaccurate)
• Can you do grief wrong?
• The difference between curiosity and judgment
• Is it ok to feel relieved when a sick person dies? 
• Rachel’s new book, A Renaissance of Our Own

 

We're re-releasing some of our favorite episodes from the first 3 seasons. This episode was originally recorded in 2023.

 

Looking for a creative exploration of grief? Check out the best selling Writing Your Grief course here.

Related episodes:

Gabor Mate on why we celebrate trauma, aka: resilience 

Illustrator Aubrey Hirsch on the power of storytelling as an act of healing

About our guest:

Rachel Cargle is a writer, entrepreneur and philanthropic innovator. Her new memoir, A Renaissance of Our Own, centers the reimagining of womanhood, solidarity and self. In 2018 she founded The Loveland Foundation, Inc., a non-profit offering free therapy to Black women and girls. 

 

She’s also the founder of Elizabeth’s Bookshop & Writing Centre, a literacy space designed to amplify, celebrate and honor the work of writers who are often excluded from traditional cultural, social and academic canons. For more on her many endeavors, visit rachelcargle.com.

 

About Megan: 

Psychotherapist Megan Devine is one of today’s leading experts on grief, from life-altering losses to the everyday grief that we don’t call grief. Get the best-selling book on grief in over a decade, It’s Ok that You’re Not OK, wherever you get books. Find Megan @refugeingrief

 

Additional Resources:

Read Rachel’s new book - A Renaissance of Our Own

 

The Great Unlearn – a self-paced, donation-based learning community

 

The Great Unlearn for Young Learners – an online learning space for young folks launching in 2022

 

Want to talk with Megan directly? Join our patreon community for live monthly Q&A grief clinics: your questions, answered. Want to speak to her privately? Apply for a 1:1 grief consultation here. 

 

Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s OK That You're Not OK and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

What would a meaningful life look like for you?

According to Death Doula Alua Arthur, conversations about death can be the most enriching conversations we have. 

 

It’s not about accepting death, or avoiding grief - it’s about building a relationship with yourself and others that doesn’t hold anything back. Why should you listen? Yeah, because you’re mortal and one day you'll die, but more importantly: because one day, hopefully in the far off future, you’ll look back at this life you’ve lived. Conversations about death can make that life so much better. 

 

Alua’s new book is Briefly Perfectly Human: Making an Authentic Life by Getting Real about the End. For more info visit aluaarthur.com

 

In this episode we cover: 

 

• What’s a Death Doula? 
• Does being honest about death give you access to joy?
• Should you tell someone that they’re dying, or does that remove hope? 
• Why living each day like it’s your last is unrealistic (and what to do instead) 
• The linking of death and grief: Death and grief are married, but grief definitely dates around. 

 

We're re-releasing some of our favorite episodes from the first 3 seasons. This episode was originally recorded in 2023.

 

Looking for a creative exploration of grief? Check out the best selling Writing Your Grief course here.

Related episodes:

Trauma Surgeon Dr. Red Hoffman on the surprisingly broad umbrella of palliative care

 

The co-founders of the New York Zen Center for Contemplative Care on supporting burnout & stress among healthcare professionals & caregivers

About our guest:

Alua Arthur is a Death Doula, recovering attorney, and the founder of Going with Grace, a Death Doula training and end-of-life planning organization that exists to support people as they answer the question, “What must I do to be at peace with myself so that I may live presently and die gracefully?” She’s been featured in the LA Times, Vogue, Refinery29, The Doctors, and alongside Chris Hemsworth on the docuseries, Limitless. Find her at aluaarthur.com and on Instagram at @going_with_grace 

 

About Megan: 

Psychotherapist Megan Devine is one of today’s leading experts on grief, from life-altering losses to the everyday grief that we don’t call grief. Get the best-selling book on grief in over a decade, It’s Ok that You’re Not OK, wherever you get books. Find Megan @refugeingrief

 

Additional Resources:

Read Alua’s new book - Briefly Perfectly Human

 

Going with Grace

 

Megan mentions this book -  Pronoia Is the Antidote for Paranoia

 

Want to talk with Megan directly? Join our patreon community for live monthly Q&A grief clinics: your questions, answered. Want to speak to her privately? Apply for a 1:1 grief consultation here. 

 

Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s OK That You're Not OK and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

What do we lose when we’re not allowed to be angry? 

 

In a lot of ways, anger is more taboo than grief. They’re deeply related, as you’ll hear in this two-part episode: both grief and anger are considered “negative” emotions, things you shouldn’t feel, and definitely shouldn’t express in polite company. But what if reclaiming our anger was the way to build the world - and the relationships - we most want?

All of that and more with the best selling author of Rage Becomes Her, Soraya Chemaly. 

 

In this two-part episode we cover: 

 

• What is the right amount of anger?
• Why deciding some emotions are “good” and some are “bad” isn’t really helpful 
• What would “anger competence” or “anger literacy” look like? (and why would you want that??) 
• Why Soraya says “most grief is ambiguous grief”
• How the old split between the head (logic) and the heart (emotion) cuts us off from what we most want
• Finding your best community by embracing your anger

 

We're re-releasing some of our favorite episodes from the first 3 seasons. This episode was originally recorded in 2023.

 

Looking for a creative exploration of grief? Check out the best selling Writing Your Grief course here.

 

About our guest:

Soraya Chemaly is an award-winning writer and activist whose work focuses on the role of gender in culture, politics, religion, and media. She is the Director of the Women’s Media Center Speech Project and an advocate for women’s freedom of expression and expanded civic and political engagement. A prolific writer and speaker, her articles appear in TIME, The Verge, The Guardian, The Nation, HuffPost, and The Atlantic. Find her best selling book, Rage Becomes Her at sorayachemaly.com. Follow her on social media @sorayachemaly

 

About Megan: 

Psychotherapist Megan Devine is one of today’s leading experts on grief, from life-altering losses to the everyday grief that we don’t call grief. Get the best-selling book on grief in over a decade, It’s Ok that You’re Not OK, wherever you get books. Find Megan @refugeingrief

 

Additional Resources:

We mention Pauline Boss in this episode. If you’re not familiar with her excellent work on ambiguous loss (a term she coined in the 1970s), check out her website at ambiguousloss.com

 

To read more about anger and how it relates to grief, check out It’s OK that You’re Not OK.

 

If you want to explore your anger with creative prompts and exercises, check out the guided journal for grief, How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed. 

 

Want to talk with Megan directly? Join our patreon community for live monthly Q&A grief clinics: your questions, answered. Want to speak to her privately? Apply for a 1:1 grief consultation here. 

 

Books and resources may contain affiliate links.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

What do we lose when we’re not allowed to be angry? 

 

In a lot of ways, anger is more taboo than grief. They’re deeply related, as you’ll hear in this two-part episode: both grief and anger are considered “negative” emotions, things you shouldn’t feel, and definitely shouldn’t express in polite company. But what if reclaiming our anger was the way to build the world - and the relationships - we most want?

All of that and more with the best selling author of Rage Becomes Her, Soraya Chemaly. 

 

In this two-part episode we cover: 

 

• What is the right amount of anger?
• Why deciding some emotions are “good” and some are “bad” isn’t really helpful 
• What would “anger competence” or “anger literacy” look like? (and why would you want that??) 
• Why Soraya says “most grief is ambiguous grief”
• How the old split between the head (logic) and the heart (emotion) cuts us off from what we most want
• Finding your best community by embracing your anger

 

We're re-releasing some of our favorite episodes from the first 3 seasons. This episode was originally recorded in 2023.

 

Looking for a creative exploration of grief? Check out the best selling Writing Your Grief course here.

 

About our guest:

Soraya Chemaly is an award-winning writer and activist whose work focuses on the role of gender in culture, politics, religion, and media. She is the Director of the Women’s Media Center Speech Project and an advocate for women’s freedom of expression and expanded civic and political engagement. A prolific writer and speaker, her articles appear in TIME, The Verge, The Guardian, The Nation, HuffPost, and The Atlantic. Find her best selling book, Rage Becomes Her at sorayachemaly.com. Follow her on social media @sorayachemaly

 

About Megan: 

Psychotherapist Megan Devine is one of today’s leading experts on grief, from life-altering losses to the everyday grief that we don’t call grief. Get the best-selling book on grief in over a decade, It’s Ok that You’re Not OK, wherever you get books. Find Megan @refugeingrief

 

Additional Resources:

We mention Pauline Boss in this episode. If you’re not familiar with her excellent work on ambiguous loss (a term she coined in the 1970s), check out her website at ambiguousloss.com

 

To read more about anger and how it relates to grief, check out It’s OK that You’re Not OK.

 

If you want to explore your anger with creative prompts and exercises, check out the guided journal for grief, How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed. 

 

Want to talk with Megan directly? Join our patreon community for live monthly Q&A grief clinics: your questions, answered. Want to speak to her privately? Apply for a 1:1 grief consultation here. 

 

Books and resources may contain affiliate links.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

What should you do if someone wants to be friends, but you’re not into it? Boundaries are part of all human relationships, but they are TRICKY. 

 

Welcome to part two of our show about boundaries - how to make them, how to keep them, and sometimes, how to breach them - with special guest Dr. Alexandra Solomon, host of Reimagining Love.

In this episode we cover:

 

• Starting over in a new place with new friends 
• Why we so often confuse boundaries with being mean or rude
• The power of social observation to gather data (Megan’s go-to move!) 
• Scripts for saying “no thank you” to a potential friendship when that feels both mean and necessary

 

We're re-releasing some of our favorite episodes from the first 3 seasons. This episode was originally recorded in 2022.

 

Looking for a creative exploration of grief? Check out the best selling Writing Your Grief course here.

 

About our guest:

Dr Alexandra Solomon is one of the most trusted voices in the world of relationships. She’s a licensed clinical psychologist at The Family Institute at Northwestern University  and the author of two bestselling books: Loving Bravely and Taking Sexy Back. 

 

You might know her from her popular instagram channel @dr.alexandra.solomon, or from her podcast, Reimagining Love. Find her at dralexandrasolomon.com 

 

About Megan: 

Psychotherapist Megan Devine is one of today’s leading experts on grief, from life-altering losses to the everyday grief that we don’t call grief. Get the best-selling book on grief in over a decade, It’s Ok that You’re Not OK, wherever you get books. Find Megan @refugeingrief

 

Additional Resources:

Want to train with Dr. Solomon? Check out her current training courses at dralexandrasolomon.com

 

Want to talk with Megan directly? Join our patreon community for live monthly Q&A grief clinics: your questions, answered. Want to speak to her privately? Apply for a 1:1 grief consultation here. 

 

Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s OK That You're Not OK and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed

Books and resources may contain affiliate links.

 

Follow our show on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and TikTok @refugeingrief and @itsokpod on TikTok.

For more information, including clinical training and consulting and to share your thoughts, visit us at refugeingrief.com

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

What do you do when someone cuts you out of their life? How do you back away slowly from someone you really don’t want to be around? Boundaries are part of all human relationships, but they are TRICKY. 

 

This week on It’s OK, part one of our show about boundaries - how to make them, how to keep them, and sometimes, how to breach them - with special guest Dr. Alexandra Solomon, host of Reimagining Love.

In this episode we cover:

 

• Why relational self-awareness is the key to all good relationships
• Can step-parents and adult step-kids get along after a loss in the family? 
• How to negotiate the relationship you want when the other people maybe don’t want you around
• The difference between “letting go of outcome” and setting yourself up for success

 

We're re-releasing some of our favorite episodes from the first 3 seasons. This episode was originally recorded in 2022.

 

Looking for a creative exploration of grief? Check out the best selling Writing Your Grief course here.

 

About our guest:

Dr Alexandra Solomon is one of the most trusted voices in the world of relationships. She’s a licensed clinical psychologist at The Family Institute at Northwestern University  and the author of two bestselling books: Loving Bravely and Taking Sexy Back. 

 

You might know her from her popular instagram channel @dr.alexandra.solomon, or from her podcast, Reimagining Love. Find her at dralexandrasolomon.com

 

About Megan: 

Psychotherapist Megan Devine is one of today’s leading experts on grief, from life-altering losses to the everyday grief that we don’t call grief. Get the best-selling book on grief in over a decade, It’s Ok that You’re Not OK, wherever you get books. Find Megan @refugeingrief

 

Additional Resources:

Want to train with Dr. Solomon? Check out her current training courses at dralexandrasolomon.com

 

Want to talk with Megan directly? Join our patreon community for live monthly Q&A grief clinics: your questions, answered. Want to speak to her privately? Apply for a 1:1 grief consultation here. 

 

Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s OK That You're Not OK and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed

Books and resources may contain affiliate links.

 

Follow our show on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and TikTok @refugeingrief and @itsokpod on TikTok.

For more information, including clinical training and consulting and to share your thoughts, visit us at refugeingrief.com

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

If you’ve lived through horrific trauma or abuse, is it really fair of us to say that the ways you’ve learned to cope are “bad,” or to use clinical speak, “maladaptive”? 

This week on It’s OK, Stephanie Foo, author of What My Bones Know, joins me to talk about complex PTSD and the ways we pathologize human responses to trauma. You’ll also hear how claiming your own messy, complex coping mechanisms can help you build a community that sees you and loves you. 

If you’re haunted by any type of trauma, or know someone who is, this conversation is a great introduction to complex PTSD, and the work of survivorship. 

 

In this episode we cover: 

 

• Why pretending to be a high-performing badass is maybe not in your best interest
• How storytelling can make you feel less freakish and alone
• The real problem with most books on trauma and C-PTSD

 

We're re-releasing some of our favorite episodes from the first 3 seasons. This episode was originally recorded in 2022.

 

Looking for a creative exploration of grief? Check out the best selling Writing Your Grief course here.

 

About our guest:

Stephanie Foo is a C-PTSD survivor, writer, and radio producer, most recently for This American Life. Her work has aired on Snap Judgment, Reply All, 99% Invisible, and Radiolab. A noted speaker and instructor, she has taught at Columbia University and has spoken at venues from Sundance Film Festival to the Missouri Department of Mental Health. She lives in New York City with her husband.

 

Find her at stephaniefoo.me and on Instagram @foofoofoo

 

About Megan: 

Psychotherapist Megan Devine is one of today’s leading experts on grief, from life-altering losses to the everyday grief that we don’t call grief. Get the best-selling book on grief in over a decade, It’s Ok that You’re Not OK, wherever you get books. Find Megan @refugeingrief

 

Additional Resources:

Read Stephanie’s book, What My Bones Know: A Memoir of Healing from Complex Trauma

 

Want to talk with Megan directly? Join our patreon community for live monthly Q&A grief clinics: your questions, answered. Want to speak to her privately? Apply for a 1:1 grief consultation here. 

 

Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s OK That You're Not OK and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed

Books and resources may contain affiliate links.

Follow our show on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and TikTok @refugeingrief and @itsokpod on TikTok.

For more information, including clinical training and consulting and to share your thoughts, visit us at refugeingrief.com

Listen to previous episodes of It’s OK that You’re Not OK!

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

There’s no denying the grief that permeates everyday life. It’s in the news, in our communities, and in our personal lives. The thing is - we never really talk about how much this grief connects us. 

This episode is STUNNING. It has gifts for everyone - whether you’re grieving a personal loss or you’re an activist of any kind. It was recorded in the summer of 2023, so you will not hear us mention P*lestine - you can bet if we’d recorded it now, that grief, and that need for belonging, would be present.

If you ARE an activist or organizer, you need to hear what Malkia has to say about our narrative strategies, and what it really takes to make change happen. If we learn to lean into that grief together, we might really create the beautiful world we all long for.

Malkia Devich-Cyril knows grief from the inside out. They grew up knowing their mom would die of her illness. They grew up immersed in the grief that is endemic to being Black in America. And they cared for their wife, comedian Alana Devich-Cyril, through her death in 2018.

 

In this episode we cover: 

 

• The difference between sorrow and grief
• How “feelings aren’t facts” relates to grief
• Is it normal to feel like you failed to keep someone alive? 
• Why do narrative strategists (aka: activists) need to understand grief? 
• Are book bans a form of grief? (spoiler: yes, but maybe not for the reasons you think)

Looking for a creative exploration of grief? Check out the best selling Writing Your Grief course here.

Related episodes: 

Rage Becomes Her (and by “her” I mean US) with Soraya Chemaly

Collective Grief and Communal Joy: with Baratunde Thurston

Wonder in an Age of Violence: Valarie Kaur & See No Stranger

About our guest:

Malkia Devich-Cyril is an activist, writer and public speaker on issues of digital rights, narrative power, Black liberation and collective grief. They are also the founding and former Executive Director of MediaJustice. Their writing has appeared in publications like Politico, Motherboard, Essence Magazine, The Atlantic, and three documentary films including the Oscar nominated 13th. Find them at @radical_loss Instagram.

 

About Megan: 

Psychotherapist Megan Devine is one of today’s leading experts on grief, from life-altering losses to the everyday grief that we don’t call grief. Get the best-selling book on grief in over a decade, It’s Ok that You’re Not OK, wherever you get books. Find Megan @refugeingrief

 

Additional resources:

Read “The Antidote to Authoritarianism” from The Atlantic

 

Read Grief Belongs in Social Movements: We Embrace it? 

Want to talk with Megan directly? Join our patreon community for live monthly Q&A grief clinics: your questions, answered. Want to speak to her privately? Apply for a 1:1 grief consultation here. 

 

Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s OK That You're Not OK and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed

 

Books and resources may contain affiliate links.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

PROLONGED GRIEF DISORDER! It’s everywhere - social media, The New York Times, The Washington Post… it’s the hot new medical condition everyone’s talking about. But why is everyone so mad about it? 

This week on the show, an overview of this hotly contested “new” human disorder, and what it means for the average person, for healthcare providers, and honestly - for the whole world. This is one medical diagnosis that affects everyone. 

 

In this episode we cover: 

 

• Why anyone should care what the APA thinks about grief
• The actual diagnostic criteria for prolonged grief disorder (translated from psych-jargon into the way real people speak)
• Access to care + funding for research: two of the main reasons people think this diagnosis could be helpful (and why it isn’t) 
• The real world impact of the DSM: doubling down on shame and misunderstanding
• One surprise reason this diagnosis *could* be seen as a good thing

 

We're re-releasing some of our favorite episodes from the first 3 seasons. This episode was originally recorded in 2022

 

Looking for a creative exploration of grief? Check out the best selling Writing Your Grief course here.

 

About Megan: 

Psychotherapist Megan Devine is one of today’s leading experts on grief, from life-altering losses to the everyday grief that we don’t call grief. Get the best-selling book on grief in over a decade, It’s Ok that You’re Not OK, wherever you get books. Find Megan @refugeingrief

 

Additional resources:

For an interview with both Megan and the author of the NYT article, Ellen Barry, on WGBH TV Boston, click here. 

 

To read Megan’s more detailed response to the NYT article, check out the original Twitter thread, and the extended thread. 

 

Want to talk with Megan directly? Join our patreon community for live monthly Q&A grief clinics: your questions, answered. Want to speak to her privately? Apply for a 1:1 grief consultation here. 

 

Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s OK That You're Not OK and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed

Books and resources may contain affiliate links.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Sam Sanders is a well known and well loved radio and podcast host. He went a little extra-viral for a recent episode of his show, Vibe Check,  in which he and his co-hosts openly discussed grief. Maybe you heard that episode: Life Has Been Lifing Lately. 

This week on It’s OK That You’re Not OK, Sam joins us to talk about being open with his grief, and the ongoing relationships we have even after death. 

 

In this episode we cover: 

 

• What happens if you give grief a voice? 
• The double-edged sword of church communities
• Why understanding context helps you treat yourself more kindly
• How men speaking honestly about grief helps everyone
• Throwing out the rule book on grief

 

We're re-releasing some of our favorite episodes from the first 3 seasons. This episode was originally recorded in 2023.

 

Looking for a creative exploration of grief? Check out the best selling Writing Your Grief course here.

 

Related episodes: 

A Renaissance of our Own: Rachel Cargle 

 

Coming Home to Yourself with Alex Elle

 

About our guest:

Sam Sanders is the host of Into It, the flagship culture podcast from Vulture, and the co-host of Vibe Check on Stitcher. He covered electoral politics for NPR, and was one of the original co-hosts of The NPR Politics Podcast. Sam also created and hosted the NPR news & culture podcast, It’s Been a Minute. Find him on social @samsanders

 

About Megan: 

Psychotherapist Megan Devine is one of today’s leading experts on grief, from life-altering losses to the everyday grief that we don’t call grief. Get the best-selling book on grief in over a decade, It’s Ok that You’re Not OK, wherever you get books. Find Megan @refugeingrief

 

Additional resources:

Want to talk with Megan directly? Join our patreon community for live monthly Q&A grief clinics: your questions, answered. Want to speak to her privately? Apply for a 1:1 grief consultation here. 

 

Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s OK That You're Not OK and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed

Follow our show on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and TikTok @refugeingrief and @itsokpod on TikTok

 

Books and resources may contain affiliate links.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.