Lactation Business Coaching with Annie and Leah

In this episode, we continue our conversation with Kenita Chenevert, BSHM, MA, IBCLC after our Deeper Dive into PMOS. Kenita did NOT grow up dreaming of becoming a lactation consultant. Her journey involved a workplace injury, a temporary reassignment, two lactation consultants who saw her potential, and a whole lot of “Wait, tell me more!” 

Kenita gets real about racial disparities in maternal care, the importance of advocating for Black birthing parents, and why every parent deserves respectful, compassionate care—without someone grabbing their breast before even asking permission. (Yes, apparently “introduce yourself and ask before touching” should be standard practice. Revolutionary stuff, we know.)

The conversation also tackles one of lactation's biggest trouble spots: professional gatekeeping. From disagreements about credentials and education pathways to debates over herbs, oral restrictions, and clinical approaches, Kenita challenges lactation consultants to stop tearing each other down and start learning from one another. Because having letters after your name doesn't mean you know everything—and being willing to say “I don't know, but I know someone who does” is a sign of a great practitioner, not a professional failure.

“We're not done learning. We're not done understanding what can support PMOS.” 

In this episode we talk about:

• Raising kids who understand that breastfeeding is normal—and who might just help you with your nipple ruler (10:41)
• Advocating for Black birthing parents and addressing racial disparities in maternal care (13:45)
• Why consent, compassion, and respectful hands-on support should be non-negotiable (17:14)
• Why the lactation community needs fewer turf wars and more opportunities to learn together (30:42)

Each month we host a live Deeper Dive so you can connect with us, our special guests, and each other + get lifetime access to the recording!

Our next Deeper Dive is about Group Practice with Cass Christopher, IBCLC, I-CST  on October 29, 2026.

Links and Resources

• Subscribe to the Deeper Dive Membership: https://learn.paperlesslactation.com/subscription/deeper-dive-membership
• Have an idea for a podcast episode or a Deeper Dive? Let us know! https://learn.paperlesslactation.com/form/collaborate
  
  

Connect with Kenita: https://milkdrops.com/

If you like what you heard today, please follow us on Facebook and Instagram.

About Us

Leah Jolly is a private practice IBCLC with Bay Area Breastfeeding in Houston, Texas.

Annie Frisbie is a private practice IBCLC serving Queens and Brooklyn in New York City and the creator of the Lactation Consultant Private Practice Toolkit.

Each month, Annie and Leah take a deeper dive into topics and information with an expert to give more insights on things that we might be incorporating in our clinical practice as well as entrepreneurs and business owners. They're bringing you this snippet today to give you a taste of what these deeper dives are all about.

Kenita Chenevert is an International Board Certified Lactation Consultant (IBCLC), herbalist, and the founder of Milk Drops and M.D. Herbs. She holds a Bachelor's degree in Healthcare Management and a Master's degree in Maternal & Child Health & Wellness with a concentration in Human Lactation.

Driven by a passion for uncovering the "why" behind low milk supply, Kenita specializes in identifying the underlying hormonal, metabolic, nutritional, and endocrine factors that can impact lactation. Her work blends evidence-informed lactation science with a holistic perspective, encouraging providers to look beyond milk removal alone and better understand the complex physiology of milk production.

Kenita is the creator of the Milk Supply Mastery System for Providers, an advanced continuing education program designed to equip lactation professionals with practical, evidence-informed tools and a root-cause approach to evaluating and managing low milk supply. She is passionate about translating research into strategies that providers can confidently apply in everyday practice.

As the first Black IBCLC in her community, Kenita is committed to advancing equitable, evidence-based lactation education while fostering collaboration and critical thinking among healthcare professionals.

Each month we host a live Deeper Dive so you can connect with us, our special guests, and each other + get lifetime access to the recording!

Links and Resources

• Subscribe to the Deeper Dive Membership: https://learn.paperlesslactation.com/subscription/deeper-dive-membership
• Have an idea for a podcast episode or a Deeper Dive? Let us know! https://learn.paperlesslactation.com/form/collaborate
• Submit your listener questions here: https://forms.gle/NsmGysHMAULW9o1z5

Subscribers also get access to our next Deeper Dive into Group Practice on October 29, 2026. Subscribe at https://learn.paperlesslactation.com/subscription/deeper-dive-membership.

About Us

Leah Jolly is a private practice IBCLC with Bay Area Breastfeeding in Houston, Texas.

Annie Frisbie is a private practice IBCLC serving Queens and Brooklyn in New York City and the creator of the Lactation Consultant Private Practice Toolkit.

In this episode, we’re talking with Allison Alexander of Skilled Lactation Solutions about the beautiful rabbit hole that is lactation care—and why sometimes the best clinical skill you can have is being comfortable saying, “I have no idea, but I’m going to figure it out.”

Allison shares how she went from nursing to lactation after noticing a pretty significant disconnect: moms were showing up devastated and struggling, while the paperwork said everything was “fine.” Spoiler alert: the paperwork was not, in fact, breastfeeding the baby.

We dig into why every parent-baby pair is completely unique, why there is no magical protocol that works for everyone, and the importance of remembering one tiny but extremely important detail:

Your baby did not take the class.

“Hope is not a strategy.”

In this episode we talk about:

• Why lactation consultants need curiosity, flexibility, and the ability to be wrong—with absolutely no room for ego.(2:05)
• The problem with treating breastfeeding like a checklist: Latch? Check. Weight? Check. Mom is crying? Moving on!  (3:26)
• The importance of helping parents trust their own intuition instead of outsourcing every parenting decision to TikTok, textbooks, or someone’s very opinionated grandma. (13:08)
• How social media can actually give parents something they desperately need: community at 3 a.m. (16:29)

Each month we host a live Deeper Dive so you can connect with us, our special guests, and each other + get lifetime access to the recording!

Our next Deeper Dive is about PMOS with Kenita Chenevert, BSHM, MA, IBCLC on September 29, 2026.

Links and Resources

• Subscribe to the Deeper Dive Membership: https://learn.paperlesslactation.com/subscription/deeper-dive-membership
• Have an idea for a podcast episode or a Deeper Dive? Let us know! https://learn.paperlesslactation.com/form/collaborate

Connect with Allison:

• https://www.skilledlactationsolutions.com/
• https://www.facebook.com/skilledlactationsolutions
• https://www.instagram.com/skilledlactationsolutions/
• https://www.tiktok.com/@skilled.lactation
• Nursing the Neurodivergent course: https://www.skilledlactationsolutions.com/professional-ibclc-programs

If you like what you heard today, please follow us on Facebook and Instagram.

About Us

Leah Jolly is a private practice IBCLC with Bay Area Breastfeeding in Houston, Texas.

Annie Frisbie is a private practice IBCLC serving Queens and Brooklyn in New York City and the creator of the Lactation Consultant Private Practice Toolkit.

Each month, Annie and Leah take a deeper dive into topics and information with an expert to give more insights on things that we might be incorporating in our clinical practice as well as entrepreneurs and business owners. They're bringing you this snippet today to give you a taste of what these deeper dives are all about.

Allison Alexander is a pediatric nurse and IBCLC living and working on Anishinaabe land.

Since 2011, she has worked with thousands of lactating families and has a passion for older babies, low milk supply, herbs and food medicine, and oral function. She has worked in outpatient pediatrics, inpatient hospital lactation, and currently co-owns Skilled Lactation Solutions. She provides in-person care at their clinic in Metro Detroit and telehealth lactation support worldwide.

She loves working outside with plants, baking, and knitting when she's not working.

Each month we host a live Deeper Dive so you can connect with us, our special guests, and each other + get lifetime access to the recording!

Links and Resources

• Subscribe to the Deeper Dive Membership: https://learn.paperlesslactation.com/subscription/deeper-dive-membership
• Have an idea for a podcast episode or a Deeper Dive? Let us know! https://learn.paperlesslactation.com/form/collaborate
• Submit your listener questions here: https://forms.gle/NsmGysHMAULW9o1z5
• Connect with Allison: https://www.skilledlactationsolutions.com
• Follow Allison on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/skilledlactationsolutions

Subscribers also get access to our next Deeper Dive into PMOS with Kenita Chenevert, BSHM, MA, IBCLC on September 29, 2026. Subscribe at https://learn.paperlesslactation.com/subscription/deeper-dive-membership.

About Us

Leah Jolly is a private practice IBCLC with Bay Area Breastfeeding in Houston, Texas.

Annie Frisbie is a private practice IBCLC serving Queens and Brooklyn in New York City and the creator of the Lactation Consultant Private Practice Toolkit.

In this after-show conversation, we sit down with Rachelle Markham, IBCLC to talk about their corporate lactation program, which somehow turns into a much bigger conversation about work, burnout, hormones, neurodivergence, rest, and why society apparently decided that waking up early and suffering until 5 p.m. was the gold standard for being a productive adult. 

Rachelle explains their corporate lactation program, where they and their team support roughly 400 families through pregnancy, breastfeeding, pumping, returning to work, and eventually weaning. They call, text, teach classes, answer questions, and generally help parents navigate the fact that babies do not come with an instruction manual. 

Then comes the real revelation: Rachelle has designed their work life around the fact that their brain and body have absolutely no interest in pretending to be a traditional employee. Rachelle talks about learning to listen when their body says, “Absolutely not today” instead of fighting it, they now build rest days into their schedule. Because, as they learned the extremely hard way, ignoring your body's requests for rest can eventually result in a spectacular two-year burnout vacation that nobody booked. 

“We do not all have to kill ourselves for work.”

In this episode we talk about:

• Why corporate lactation support can be a powerful employee benefit (3:45)
• Creating your own schedule based on your body’s needs (10:45)
• How your body may know your work style better than you (15:11)
• Why you don’t have to do something just because everyone else is doing it (17:43)

Each month we host a live Deeper Dive so you can connect with us, our special guests, and each other + get lifetime access to the recording!

Our next Deeper Dive is on building community with Rachelle Markham.

Links and Resources

• Subscribe to the Deeper Dive Membership: https://learn.paperlesslactation.com/subscription/deeper-dive-membership
• Have an idea for a podcast episode or a Deeper Dive? Let us know! https://learn.paperlesslactation.com/form/collaborate
• Connect with Rachelle : https://www.pocketlcpro.com/
• Find Rachelle on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/pocketlcpro/
• Follow Rachelle on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=61564963953922

If you like what you heard today, please follow us on Facebook and Instagram.

About Us

Leah Jolly is a private practice IBCLC with Bay Area Breastfeeding in Houston, Texas.

Annie Frisbie is a private practice IBCLC serving Queens and Brooklyn in New York City and the creator of the Lactation Consultant Private Practice Toolkit.

Each month, Annie and Leah take a deeper dive into topics and information with an expert to give more insights on things that we might be incorporating in our clinical practice as well as entrepreneurs and business owners. They're bringing you this snippet today to give you a taste of what these deeper dives are all about.

Rachelle Markham, owns and operates Wellness Lactation, in San Diego, CA where she helps new parents and families navigate their infant feeding journey.

Rachelle has been working with families for over 27 years. Twenty of those years have been as an IBCLC. She has a passion for learning and keeping up to date with all things human lactation. This desire to “know-all-the-things” means she can frequently be found traveling to trainings or enrolled in multiple online classes. As of August 2022 she just finished up a year long intensive program on Holistic Lactation.

When she doesn't have a client in front of her you’ll almost always find Rachelle with a giant iced black tea in hand, wearing something black, and ready for an adventure!

Each month we host a live Deeper Dive so you can connect with us, our special guests, and each other + get lifetime access to the recording!

Links and Resources

• Subscribe to the Deeper Dive Membership: https://learn.paperlesslactation.com/subscription/deeper-dive-membership
• **Have an idea for a podcast episode or a Deeper Dive? Let us know! https://learn.paperlesslactation.com/form/collaborate
• **Submit your listener questions here: https://forms.gle/NsmGysHMAULW9o1z5
• Connect with Rachelle : https://wellnesslactationsd.com/
• Find Rachelle on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/wellness_lactation
• Follow Rachelle on Facebook: https://wellnesslactationsd.com/

Subscribers also get access to our next Deeper Dive into K-Tapping on August 27, 2026. Subscribe at https://learn.paperlesslactation.com/subscription/deeper-dive-membership.

About Us

Leah Jolly is a private practice IBCLC with Bay Area Breastfeeding in Houston, Texas.

Annie Frisbie is a private practice IBCLC serving Queens and Brooklyn in New York City and the creator of the Lactation Consultant Private Practice Toolkit.

In this episode, we set out to discuss working with Type A parents... and accidentally ended up in a group therapy session for lactation consultants.

Along the way, we discovered that everyone—from new parents to seasoned IBCLCs—are just trying to earn an imaginary gold star in the Olympics of "Doing Everything Perfectly."

So if your nervous system feels like it's been running a marathon, take a long exhale, remember that perfection is a myth, and maybe let the tiny elf in your brain go scream into the street for a minute. It's doing important work. 

"It's so easy to have compassion for other people, and it's so difficult to have it for yourself." 

In this episode we talk about:

• Why "What's your success rate?" is a question capable of launching an existential crisis (3:06)
• The bittersweet moment when you realize you've graduated from "relatable mom" to "wise breastfeeding crone." (7:21)
• How taking one really long exhale is cheaper than therapy and almost as portable (11:39)
• The emotional support provided by sending one tiny part of your brain outside to scream while the rest of you continues nodding professionally (13:41)

Each month we host a live Deeper Dive so you can connect with us, our special guests, and each other + get lifetime access to the recording!

Our next Deeper Dive is on building community with Rachelle Markham.

Links and Resources

• Subscribe to the Deeper Dive Membership: https://learn.paperlesslactation.com/subscription/deeper-dive-membership
• Have an idea for a podcast episode or a Deeper Dive? Let us know! https://learn.paperlesslactation.com/form/collaborate
  
  

If you like what you heard today, please follow us on Facebook and Instagram.

About Us

Leah Jolly is a private practice IBCLC with Bay Area Breastfeeding in Houston, Texas.

Annie Frisbie is a private practice IBCLC serving Queens and Brooklyn in New York City and the creator of the Lactation Consultant Private Practice Toolkit.

Each month, Annie and I take a deeper dive into topics and information with an expert to give us more insights on things that we might be incorporating in our clinical practice as well as entrepreneurs and business owners. We're bringing you this snippet today to give you a taste of what these deeper dives are all about.

Every IBCLC has the client who's read every study and is quietly terrified — and our usual instinct (give them more information) often makes it worse. This Deeper Dive brings in a psychotherapist who works with exactly this client to show what's happening underneath and how to change the care plan. Tagline option: "The client who's read everything and trusts nothing. A psychotherapist on what's really going on — and what to do about it.”

Nelia DeAmaral is a Registered Psychotherapist, Brainspotting Consultant, and clinical supervisor in private practice in the Greater Toronto Area, with more than 25 years of clinical experience. As an experienced birth and perinatal professional, she specializes in supporting individuals and families through pregnancy, postpartum, and parenting. In addition to her clinical work, Nelia provides consultation, training, and supervision to therapists and helping professionals, with a focus on women’s mental health and supporting neurodivergent clients. She works from an integrative, attachment-oriented lens, incorporating somatic practices, Brainspotting, and practical tools to help clients and professionals feel more confident, grounded, and effective. Nelia is also a published author and the creator of Emerging Mothers and From Pointer to Pen, programs that integrate reflective writing, community, and healing. Find her at neliadeamaral.com

Connect with Nelia:

• Instagram: @nelia_deamaral — https://www.instagram.com/nelia_deamaral/
• Facebook: Coaching with Nelia — https://www.facebook.com/CoachingwithNelia
• Website: https://neliadeamaral.com

Each month we host a live Deeper Dive so you can connect with us, our special guests, and each other + get lifetime access to the recording!

Links and Resources

• Subscribe to the Deeper Dive Membership: https://learn.paperlesslactation.com/subscription/deeper-dive-membership
• Have an idea for a podcast episode or a Deeper Dive? Let us know! https://learn.paperlesslactation.com/form/collaborate
• Submit your listener questions here: https://forms.gle/NsmGysHMAULW9o1z5

Subscribers also get access to our next Deeper Dive into Building Community on July 23, 2026. Subscribe at https://learn.paperlesslactation.com/subscription/deeper-dive-membership.

About Us

Leah Jolly is a private practice IBCLC with Bay Area Breastfeeding in Houston, Texas.

Annie Frisbie is a private practice IBCLC serving Queens and Brooklyn in New York City and the creator of the Lactation Consultant Private Practice Toolkit.

We just finished an hour with Cathy Watson Genna, and our brains are still buzzing. That's how it always goes with Cathy — she has this gift for showing you how everything connects. The web of infant assessment can feel impossibly tangled from the inside, but she helps you see the threads, trace them, and understand why each one pulls on the others. 

One of the things Cathy does so well is remind you how much you've actually learned — and how much there still is to learn. Both of us are coming up on recertification this year (yes, already — we found an old episode in our archive of us talking about our first recertification and the time warp is real), and we're both still chasing CERPs and CEUs with zero signs of stopping.

This aftershow is us, Annie and Leah, processing what sparked for us and what we're taking back into the treatment room.

"It's hard to figure out what's going wrong if you don't know what's going right." 

In this episode we talk about:

• Learning through touch (3:21)
• Finding healthy baselines (7:40)
• The importance of staying flexible in assessments (13:16)
• Tools for oral function (15:15)

Each month we host a live Deeper Dive so you can connect with us, our special guests, and each other + get lifetime access to the recording!

Our next Deeper Dive is on working with Type A clients — and yes, if you practice in an urban or professional community, this is basically your entire caseload. We cannot wait. 

Links and Resources

• Subscribe to the Deeper Dive Membership: https://learn.paperlesslactation.com/subscription/deeper-dive-membership
• Have an idea for a podcast episode or a Deeper Dive? Let us know! https://learn.paperlesslactation.com/form/collaborate
• Catherine Watson Genna's book: Supporting Sucking Skills in Breastfeeding Infants, 3rd ed. — the foundational text for much of what Cathy teaches
• "Inside the Interstitium, the Human Body's Hidden Pathways" — New York Times, May 11, 2026 (gift article — no paywall)
• Langevin & Yandow (2002): Acupuncture points and the connective tissue network — original fascia-meridian mapping study

Infant Assessment Tools Annie Uses

• AOMT (Academy of Orofacial Myofunctional Therapy) — Martinelli Oral Assessment Tool
• Srinivasan, Dobrich, Mitnick & Feldman (2006): Frenotomy Decision Rule — Breastfeeding Medicine
• TABBY (Tongue-tie And Breastfed BabY): Ingram et al., International Breastfeeding Journal, 2019

Craniosacral Therapy Training

• Beames CST Foundations Course — Meaghan Beames, RMT (virtual, 4 weeks, eligible for CERPs)

IBCLC Recertification

• IBLCE recertification and CERPs information

If you like what you heard today, please follow us on Facebook and Instagram.

About Us

Leah Jolly is a private practice IBCLC with Bay Area Breastfeeding in Houston, Texas.

Annie Frisbie is a private practice IBCLC serving Queens and Brooklyn in New York City and the creator of the Lactation Consultant Private Practice Toolkit.

Each month, Annie and Leah take a deeper dive into topics and information with an expert to give more insights on things that we might be incorporating in our clinical practice as well as entrepreneurs and business owners. They're bringing you this snippet today to give you a taste of what these deeper dives are all about.

In this Deeper Dive, you'll learn how newer research into tongue function, tethered oral tissues, and the fascial system has changed what experienced clinicians are looking for during hands-on infant assessment — and how to bring those insights into your own practice. You'll leave with a clearer framework for the methodical hands-on piece of your visits and a better understanding of what palpation can tell you that observation alone can't.

Catherine Watson Genna BS, IBCLC is an International Board Certified Lactation Consultant in private practice in New York City. Certified in 1992, Catherine is particularly interested in helping moms and babies breastfeed when they have medical challenges. She speaks to healthcare professionals around the world on assisting breastfeeding babies with anatomical, genetic or neurological problems. Her presentations and her writing feature her clinical photographs, which have also been published widely. Catherine's research collaboration with Columbia University and Tel Aviv University's departments of biomedical engineering are studying various aspects of infant sucking, swallowing and nipple biomechanics. She is the author of Selecting and Using Breastfeeding Tools: Improving Care and Outcomes (Praeclarus Press 2009) and Supporting Sucking Skills in Breastfeeding Infants 4th edition (Jones and Bartlett Publishers 2023) as well as professional journal articles. Catherine is still a La Leche League Leader, supporting new Leaders in Queens. Catherine was the founding Associate Editor for the United States Lactation Consultant Association journal Clinical Lactation's first 7 years. Her own two offspring (who were of course breastfed!) are a seminarian and a registered nurse.

Each month we host a live Deeper Dive so you can connect with us, our special guests, and each other + get lifetime access to the recording!

Links and Resources

• Subscribe to the Deeper Dive Membership: https://learn.paperlesslactation.com/subscription/deeper-dive-membership
• Have an idea for a podcast episode or a Deeper Dive? Let us know! https://learn.paperlesslactation.com/form/collaborate
• Submit your listener questions here: https://forms.gle/NsmGysHMAULW9o1z5

Subscribers also get access to our next Deeper Dive into Type A Families on June 16, 2026. Subscribe at https://learn.paperlesslactation.com/subscription/deeper-dive-membership.

About Us

Leah Jolly is a private practice IBCLC with Bay Area Breastfeeding in Houston, Texas.

Annie Frisbie is a private practice IBCLC serving Queens and Brooklyn in New York City and the creator of the Lactation Consultant Private Practice Toolkit.