Make Things That Matter

Itamar Gilad is the author of Evidence Guided, which is my favorite book out there on how to practically DO product discovery. Prior to becoming a product consultant and trainer, he had a long product career at Google where he led the creation and launch of products that are now used by over a billion people.

In this conversation we explore the GIST approach to product discovery through the origin story of Gmail's tabbed inbox, to help you see what great product discovery looks like in practice.

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Topics discussed

(01:33) Creating frameworks and coming up with catchy models

(10:02) GIST: the meta framework organizing model concept.

(15:02) Illustrating GIST through the story of Gmail tabbed inbox

(21:06) Refocusing goals led to stronger, simpler idea.

(25:08) Prioritize, filter, and reevaluate for effective ideas.

(29:02) Usability and value risks, low confidence, evolution.

(35:43) Key results drive achieving goals, engaging company.

(40:07) Inquiring about applying startup approach to enterprises.

(45:32) Navigating uncertainty in strategy with evidence and discovery.

(50:44) Emphasizing iterative nature of product discovery process.

(59:10) Encouraging analysis for companies hesitant about changes.

(01:01:18) Evaluate, test, experiment, launch, measure, impact, outcomes

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Links & resources mentioned

• Send episode feedback on Twitter @askotzko , or via email

• Itamar Gilad : website, LinkedIn

• Evidence Guided (book) - website, Amazon

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Related episodes:

• #55: How does continuous discovery come together for a new product?

• #44 Teresa Torres: Habits for clear thinking and better product bets

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Books:

• Evidence Guided: website, Amazon

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Other resources:

• Itamar’s downloadable frameworks & resources

• The GIST framework

• Confidence meter for ICE scoring

• Creating Product Strategy with Multiple Strategic Tracks (MuST)

• Marty Cagan: The four big risks

• Gibson Biddle: proxy metrics (within product strategy)

Steve Portigal is a veteran user research leader and consultant who helps companies mature their research practices. He’s the author of Interviewing Users, a classic in the field, and the host of the design leadership podcast Dollars to Donuts. In this conversation, we explore:

• how to use creative practices to develop your voice as a leader and storyteller

• how to be a smart consumer of research findings when you aren’t an expert in the craft of research

• one simple question leaders can ask to set their organizations to make the most of research

• and how to create the conditions for high-impact, effective creative work in your team

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Topics discussed

(10:21) Experimenting with writing and finding one's voice

(15:47) Feedback model: GASP - goals, attempts, successes, possibilities

(19:53) Workshops, creativity, and self-doubt

(27:06) Embrace authenticity, find your unique facilitation style

(28:10) Appreciating different approaches, understanding executives' skepticism

(34:37) Engage with compassion

(39:29) Research is essential for informed decision-making

(49:01) Compassion and reflection are crucial for leaders

(50:48) Create a safe learning space for engagement

(56:03) Assessing code quality and marketing effectiveness

(01:00:39) Research raises questions, timing and deployment important

(01:10:31) Stay fascinated with the world around you

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Links & resources mentioned

• Send episode feedback on Twitter @askotzko , or via email

• Steve Portigal: website, LinkedIn

• Book: Interviewing Users

• Podcast: Dollars to Donuts

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Related episodes

• #3 Christina Wodtke: Unleashing potential with extraordinary teams

• #62 Sahil Lavingia: Independent Thinking & Pricing at Gumroad

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Books

• Interviewing Users

• Don’t Make Me Think

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Other resources

• Great User Research (for Non-Researchers)

• When to Use Which User-Experience Research Methods

• Nielsen: Why You Only Need to Test with 5 Users

Christian Idiodi is a partner at Silicon Valley Product Group (SVPG). Before SVPG, he profoundly shaped or reshaped the culture and products of CareerBuilder, Snagajob, and led the product transformation in Datasite, the first SaaS for due diligence in the finance industry.

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Topics discussed

(08:56) An unusual childhood leads to survival skills, creativity

(12:25) Aspiring doctor turned innovator seeking problem-solving opportunities

(18:33) Guiding others through transformation, not crafting it

(21:31) Thriving on tech success, driven by motivation

(28:40) Cycle of innovation: growth, stagnation, reversion, reaction

(36:45) Reading biographies as a leader to improve your decision-making

(37:40) Key to career success: leadership, insight, humility

(47:23) Transitioning roles, what were key mindset shifts?

(56:30) Prioritizing practice before game day

(01:03) Choose kindness, support, and do good work

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Links & resources mentioned

Find the full transcript at: https://podcast.makethingsthatmatter.com/christian-idiodi-telling-the-story-of-transformation/#transcript

* Christian Idiodi - SVPG

* New book: TRANSFORMED

* Inspire Africa Conference

* Innovate Africa Foundation

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Related episodes:

* Marty Cagan: Moving to the product model

* Martina Hodges-Schell: Understanding your operating model

* Product Therapy - What is product sense?

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People & orgs:

* Jay Acunzo

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Books:

* Turn the Ship Around - L. David Marquet

* An Everyone Culture - Robert Kegan

* Build - Tony Fadell

* Walter Isaacson - Steve Jobs

* Team of Rivals - Abraham Lincoln

* Invention: A Life of Learning Through Failure

* Sam Walton: Made In America

Martina Hodges-Schell is a transformation coach and consultant that helps organizations adopt a Silicon Valley approach to innovation. She spent 25 years leading design and innovation in tech companies, and now she loves providing a fresh, outside perspective to help teams develop and mature their product practice.

In this conversation, we…

* define transformation and what it means for your company operating model

* explore how a company operating model might be shifted by adapting AI technology

* Discuss how embodied leadership practices like equine coaching can give leaders the most honest feedback

Enjoy!

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Topics discussed

(05:31) A horse's feedback reflects your behavior and communication

(06:51) Feedback on your actions and decision making

(10:48) Leaders MUST be involved in change process

(13:57) Control is equated with power, active involvement important

(18:58) Change is difficult, people resist it

(19:45) Balancing ideas within organizations, encouraging participation

(25:37) Four lenses for an operating model

(29:18) How AI transforms operating model: structure and collaboration challenges

(31:36) Organizational structure should promote collaboration and communication

(37:17) Optimistic about innovation, promoting change and collaboration

(39:55) Focus on broad possibilities, capabilities, and brand

(43:16) Closing the loop from teams to leadership

(50:20) Guiding questions in life

(52:49) Book recommendations

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Links & resources mentioned

Find the full transcript at: https://podcast.makethingsthatmatter.com/martina-hodges-schell-operating-model/#transcript

* Send episode feedback on Twitter @askotzko , or via email

* Martina Hodges-Schell: website, LinkedIn

* Book: Communicating the UX Vision: 13 Anti-patterns That Block Good Design

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Related episodes:

* #72 Pam Fox Rollin: Growing Groups Into Teams

* #75 Chris Smith: Simple guidelines for AI investment sizing

* #74 Chris Smith: How to think about adding AI to your product

* #77 Marty Cagan: Moving to the product model

* #39 Melissa Perri: Product strategy and the missing middle in organizations

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People & orgs:

* Noelle Saldana

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Books:

* The Build Trap

* Growing Groups Into Teams

* TRANSFORMED

* Managing Transitions

* Transitions: Making Sense of Life's Changes

* Leading Change

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Other resources:

* Martina’s OMG (operating model goals) canvas

* North Shore - AI transformation blog series

Marty Cagan joins me for real talk about what it takes to transform into a strong product company.

You can read the episode transcript here.

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Topics discussed:

(00:00) The process and challenges in writing a book

(12:27) Real world products need tech for results

(17:28) Deciding on investments, solving problems, and changing processes

(28:11) Understanding disconnects

(36:00) Top leadership support crucial

(40:28) How product coaches help

(44:57) "Being agile" doesn't always mean "doing agile"

(49:52) Handling objections well

(54:45) How it comes together in an organizational operating model

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Links & resources mentioned:

Send episode feedback on Twitter @askotzko , or via email

Marty Cagan

• LinkedIn, website

• New book: TRANSFORMED

• Previous books: INSPIRED, EMPOWERED

• SVPG

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Related episodes:

• #31 Marty Cagan - Empowering product teams

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Books:

• The Crux

• Good Strategy, Bad Strategy

• The Art of Action

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Other resources:

• Product Management Theater

• Product Leadership Theater

• Transformation Theater

• So You Want To Write a Book?

Randy Silver is a product leadership advisor, podcast host, and global product community weaver. We explore the conversations needed to drive impact and perception of value.

You can also read this episode here.

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Topics discussed:

(04:00) Moving from a journalistic editor to product editor

(07:34) Parallels between product management film production

(09:53) Missed opportunities & the need for collaboration

(15:21) Alignment with stakeholders

(18:24) Sales misalignment and restructures

(21:10) Diagnosing teamwork challenges with partners

(25:02) Diagnosing your new org via informational interviews

(28:05) Creating a manager README

(30:11) Roles and responsibilities convo for better understanding

(35:19) Guiding conversations and change

(44:22) Did reorganization at Airbnb address strategy misalignment?

(46:18) Defensive reaction within product community to Airbnb

(52:14) Coordinating while scaling

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Links & resources mentioned

Find the full transcript at: https://podcast.makethingsthatmatter.com/randy-silver-conversations-create-impact#transcript

Send episode feedback on Twitter @askotzko , or via email

Randy Silver: website, LinkedIn, Twitter

• MTP talk: “Getting aligned with your exec team by Randy Silver”

• Podcast: The Product Experience

• Book: “What Do We Do Now? A Product Manager’s Guide to Strategy in the Time of Crisis”

• The product environment canvas

• Stakeholder Informational interview template

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Related episodes:

• Andrew on Randy’s podcast, The Product Experience

• #72 Pam Fox Rollin: Growing groups into teams

• #44 Teresa Torres: Habits for clear thinking and better product bets

• #18 Josh Seiden: Create clarity with outcomes thinking

• #5 Rich Mironov: Building a thriving product organization

• #3 Christina Wodtke: Unleashing potential with extraordinary teams

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People & orgs:

• Georgie Smallwood

• Matt LeMay

• Alan Albert - value based pricing

• Itamar Gilad

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Books:

• Growing Groups Into Teams

• Evidence Guided

• The Team That Managed Itself

• Continuous Discovery Habits

• Outcomes Over Output

• Making Things Happen: Mastering Project Management

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Other resources:

• Product, it’s time to grow up

• The 11 Laws of Showrunning

• Rich Mironov: The slippery slope of sales-led development

• The Journey to Empowered Teams - Twitter, Airbnb & Tumblr

• Product Strategy Acid Test

• OODA loop

• Manager README: The Indispensable Document for the Modern Manager

• Roman Pichler - the decision making chart

• Relentless equanimity

Chris Smith is a longtime engineering leader who has been in the trenches of building with AI & machine learning for years. This is a short, bonus episode to go along with our main conversation: https://pod.fo/e/20a5ef

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Topics discussed:

(00:00) AI tooling allows for cost-effective testing.

(06:02) Scoring and statistical measures to track progress.

(09:22) Costs if model needs rebuilding or hyperparameter tuning

(11:31) Order of magnitude investment estimates

(15:10) Decide upfront when to cut bait.

(17:12) Investment essentials for meaningful results and outcomes.

Chris Smith is a longtime engineering leader who has been in the trenches of building with AI & machine learning for years. He’s led the development of data systems & strategies at tech giants like early Google, Yahoo, and Sun; S&P 500's like Live Nation; and a wide variety of startups.

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Topics discussed:

(00:00) AI industry at inflection point, causing chaos

(09:05) Machine learning, neural nets, and generative AI

(14:03) Generative AI: LLMs + broad understanding

(21:56) Open source models improve specialized problem solving

(25:06) Access to data leads to competitive advantage

(32:53) AI training improves productivity and learning speed

(42:51) Reduced investment in GPT models speeds results

(48:47) Expectation mismatch leads to brand perception risks

(53:54) Non-technical work is crucial for AI product success

(57:30) Building a computer vision product from scratch

(01:03:14) A strategic approach to refining and testing prototypes

(01:08:04) Closing learning loops

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Links & resources mentioned

Find the full transcript at: https://podcast.makethingsthatmatter.com/chris-smith-how-to-add-ai-to-product/#transcript

Send episode feedback on Twitter @askotzko , or via email

Chris Smith:

• LinkedIn

• X / Twitter: @xcbsmith

• Bluesky @xcbsmith

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Related episodes:

• #75 Chris Smith: Simple guidelines for AI investment sizing

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People & orgs:

• Dr. Marily Nika - AI Lead, Meta Reality Lab

• Travis Corrigan - Head of Product, Smith.AI

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Books:

• Evidence Guided - Itamar Gilad

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Other resources:

• GPT = “generative pre-trained transformer”

• Wizard of Oz experiment

• Tom Chi - learning loop

• Joel Spolsky: The iceberg secret, revealed

• ML Ops

• Computer vision

• Precision-Recall curves

• Leaked Google memo: “There is no moat”

• Universal basic income (UBI)

• Stop-loss order

Nacho Bassino is a veteran product leader and the author of Product Direction, one of my go-to books on how to actually generate a product strategy. There are many excellent books out there on strategy as a whole, but surprisingly few that specifically cover product strategy.

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Topics discussed:

(00:02:12) Nacho's journey into product leadership

(00:09:23) How leaders can adapt to others' communication and cross-cultural preferences

(00:10:50) Strategy: defining problems and prioritizing solutions

(00:19:44) Painful, but typical; a fake strategy

(00:24:20) Time and team needed for first big strategy creation

(00:30:17) Three key aspects of quarterly reviews: OKRs, roadmaps, and Opportunity Solution Trees

(00:35:33) Connection between impact, outcomes, and initiatives with revenue generation

(00:40:11) Empowerment: teams' accountability and autonomy

(00:51:36) Nacho's hard product leadership call

(00:58:15) Strategy for startups vs larger companies

(00:59:02) How the opportunity space expands with company growth

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Links & resources mentioned

Find the full transcript at: https://podcast.makethingsthatmatter.com/nacho-bassino-build-your-first-product-strategy/#transcript

• Send episode feedback on Twitter @askotzko , or via email

• Nacho Bassino: Website, LinkedIn

• Book: Product Direction

• Podcast: 100 Product Strategies

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Related episodes:

• #68 Adam Thomas: Operationalizing product strategy

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Books:

• Product Direction

• The Culture Map

• Playing to Win

• Product Roadmaps Relaunched

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Other resources and articles:

• A product strategy acid test

• What is "strategy"?

• Burnout as a strategy problem

• Should leaders be prescriptive about strategy?

• Product strategy: focus vs prioritization

• Does strategy matter before product-market fit (PMF)?

• Execs care about revenue. How do we get them to care about outcomes?

Pam Fox Rollin is an executive coach and strategist. This is a conversation about the conversations that leaders are not having. These are THE difference between building a truly committed team that delivers the future you care about… and having a group which is a team in name only.

Topics discussed:

(00:03:55) Writing a book about teams as a team.

(00:11:41) Teamwork failure due to individual mindset silos.

(00:14:51) Telling the difference between hard work and commitment

(00:18:40) OKRs align and drive team objectives.

(00:20:54) Incentive structures and team behaviors

(00:24:02) Shared promise vital for effective team; align goals and coordinate efforts.

(00:28:25) Leaders build futures that matter through conversations.

(00:33:08) Finance team doubts engineering's budget needs.

(00:36:23) Trust: vulnerability in actions and five dimensions.

(00:38:21) Dimensions of trust

(00:42:23) Design conversations as a leader to level up.

(00:46:01) Challenges of remote work and trust.

(00:49:05) Missing conversations hinder team building efforts.

(00:53:44) Collaboration needed in achieving desired outcomes.

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Links & resources mentioned

Find the full transcript at: https://podcast.makethingsthatmatter.com/pam-fox-rollin-growing-groups-into-teams/#transcript

* Send episode feedback on Twitter @askotzko , or via email

* Pam Fox Rollin: LinkedIn, Altus Growth Partners

* New book: Growing Groups Into Teams

* Altus’ Growth podcast: Missing Conversations

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Related episodes:

* #22 Pam Fox Rollin: Be a leader who helps people come alive

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People & orgs:

* Bob Dunham - Institute for Generative Leadership

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Books:

* Growing Groups Into Teams

* The Thin Book of Trust - Charles Feltman

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Other resources:

* IBM study: “Augmented work for an automated, AI-driven world”

* Paper: On the Folly of Rewarding A, While Hoping for B