May the Record Reflect

The wish to leave the world a better place has long inspired people to attend law school and make a difference in the important ways only trial lawyers can. According to NITA Trustee Angela Vigil and Program Director Henry Su, pro bono publico provides an opportunity both to help those in need of legal counsel and to develop one’s oral advocacy skills. In this episode recognizing both this week's National Celebration of Pro Bono and the fifth anniversary of May the Record Reflect, Angela and Henry discuss a lawyer’s professional responsibilities, the advocacy skillset that pro bono work develops, and how to find pro bono opportunities. They also reveal their favorite tips, common mistakes they see in depositions and trials, and qualities embodied by courtroom superstars.

“I think law school lights a fire in smart and curious people for sure, so when you come out of law school, you have an idea of what kind of ways you want to apply these great new skills. That is definitely true in most recent generations and you just get rejuvenated when you talk with them and learn what they want to accomplish. I also think that, more and more, lawyers are listening and understanding that wellness and bringing your whole self to being part of your community is really important. You can’t just be a lawyer who locks yourself in a room and bills a bunch of hours for decades. It’s not healthy, it doesn’t last, it’s not good for you, it doesn’t encourage diversity and community. So, I think we all—and certainly younger-generation lawyers—are recognizing that you’ve got to bring your humanity to being part of your practice as well.” Angela Vigil

Topics

6:25    Model Rule of Professional Conduct 6.1

8:40    Pro Bono's impact on access to justice

13:00  Learning trial skills through pro bono service

16:44  Range of pro bono advocacy work

27:35  Inspiration for doing work that is “advisory”

33:45  Generational desire to make a difference

35:37  Wellness and performance

38:16  Obligation to provide competent representation

42:25  Making time for pro bono

46:15  Witnessing skills growth through pro bono

53:00  Common mistakes in depositions and at trial

56:54  Superstar lawyer qualities

58:51  Favorite insider’s tips

1:00:46  Signoff questions


Angela Vigil (bio)
Henry Su (bio)
ABA Model Rule 6.1 (link)
National Pro Bono Opportunities Guide (state search engine)
ABA Free Legal Answers volunteer (registration)
May the Record Reflect (Episodes 1, 2, 3, 4)
The Resilient Lawyer (podcast episode)

When people hear the term “rhetoric,” they often think of words full of sound and fury signifying nothing. Yet that is a woeful misunderstanding of the beauty and power of persuasive language and argument. In this episode rife with back-to-school vibes, Temple Law Professor Marian Grace Braccia breaks down the where, how, and why rhetorical devices belong in oral and written advocacy; reveals why rhetorical devices have an massive impact, even on the cellular level, on finders of fact; refreshes your recollection on devices you already know while introducing others that belong in your repertoire; and totally geeks out about how fun, easy, and powerful they are to use.

Topics

3:30    The road to rhetoric

7:50    Definition of rhetoric and the Queen Philosophy

10:56    What are rhetorical devices?

11:59    The OGs of ancient rhetoric

18:43    Recent rhetoricians

20:59    Aesthetics of rhetoric

27:10    Where to deploy rhetoric at trial

29:12    Rhetoric in oral and written advocacy

33:00    Taking rhetoric too far

35:55    Easiest rhetorical devices to use

40:23    Obama the rhetorician

45:20    Tricolon and antanagoge

50:33    Sources of inspiration

54:09    Favorite devices

55:19    Wait . . . Taylor Swift?

57:40    Pop villains on trial

1:06:23  Signoff questions

Quote

“On an artistic level, rhetoric and the effective deployment of rhetorical devices give us emotional resonance and memory enhancement and aesthetic pleasure, and even surprise and novelty. Some rhetorical devices like irony or puns introduce the element of surprise and novelty, and they can be amusing or thought provoking, and they make the message more engaging, more memorable.” Marian Grace Braccia

Resources

Marian Grace Braccia (bio)

The Queen Philosophy (webpage)

Henry V: St. Crispin’s Day (video)

Renaissance Man: St. Crispin’s Day (video)

Rhetorical devices worksheet (available for download from Episode 58's show notes under Resources > Podcasts at nita.org)

Some of the most important heads to get into are those of the jurors seated for your trial. Fortunately, figuring out what makes people tick is both interesting and fun, and Temple University Director of Advocacy Programs Jules Epstein is here to share the lowdown. Whether he’s busting common courtroom myths, revealing how the camera lies, or delving into the cognitive process of jurors (and your very own self), Jules makes the case that knowing a little trial psychology can give you a competitive edge for the good of your clients. 

Topics 

4:02 Curse of knowledge 

10:04 Goldfish attention span 

13:47 Slo-mo evidence 

19:16 Problems with graphic evidence 

24:43 Visuals with words 

27:28 Disconnect between science and law 

36:30 Camera bias 

43:21 Thought processes 

48:55 Mythbusting 

53:46 Go slow 

56:12 Bonus lessons 

1:00:15 Collective Wisdom  

1:03:55 Signoff questions 

Quote 
“A visual guarantees that all twelve, or all eight, or all six jurors will know what something looked like.” Jules Epstein 

Resources
Jules Epstein (bio) 
NITA’s free Collective Wisdom articles (link) (latest)
Point Well Made: Persuasive Oral Advocacy (book) 

If you’ve ever been baffled by scientific, technological, or financial evidence in your case or wondered how an expert witness arrived at their conclusions, former Gwinnett County Magistrate Judge Ruth McMullin is back on the podcast to share some know-how. In this episode, she talks about why you need to deep-dive into learning about subjects outside of your college major, what fact-finders want to know about forensics and how to make it easier for them to follow, the subtle things you can learn by using subpoenas, and the impact of bias in forensic evidence. 

Topics

3:30   Types of forensic evidence

7:40   What’s harder and easier about types of evidence

12:03 What fact-finders want from forensic evidence

13:25 Judges’ versus jurors’ needs

17:33 Simplifying complex evidence for understanding and retention

22:57 Using expert reports

25:40 Impact in the post-truth era

31:43 Judge McMullin’s favorite forensic evidence

35:18 When your agency lacks funding for competing experts

37:35 Use of subpoenas

40:25 Role of bias in forensic evidence

44:05 Signoff questions

Quote

“Does this [expert] report help, does it hurt, or is it neutral? A lot of times, lawyers will see a report from the opposing side and immediately think, ‘This hurts my case.’ But it you look at it and understand the parameters of that report, it may be neutral. You can save yourself a lot of stress and time if you understand how that evidence plays in with your bigger case. It may help your case, and you may look at the report and say, ‘You know what? This actually supports my theory.’ So, the more you [learn about and question forensic evidence], the more you get comfortable with saying, ‘I don’t have an objection to this report from the other side. I actually want it. I’m glad you got it, thank you.’” Judge Ruth McMullin

Resources

Judge Ruth McMullin (bio)

The Great Imposter (podcast episode)

David Mann storytelling (course) (episode)

You've probably heard that in direct examination, controlling your witness is all about witness prep, while in cross, leading questions are the key. Those oft-repeated tenets are true, say podcast guests Judge Amy Hanley and NITA faculty member Adrienne Johnson, but they oversimplify the specific control techniques that actually work and how attorney style, hearing type, and venue factor in. Tune in as they get specific about the part of trial over which we have the least control: examining witnesses.  

Topics 

3:48 One task lawyers often overlook 
7:08 Prep is not just for the witness 
9:50 Practice questions 
13:33 Witness crumbles on the stand 
18:52 Leading questions on cross 
21:00 Using your voice 
26:12 Tips for controlling on cross 
32:33 Anecdotes about control in the courtroom 
36:05 Developing your trial style 
38:30 Impact of venue and regions 
41:22 Controlling in different types of proceeding  
46:06 Script versus bullet points 
55:20 Expecting problems 
58:16 Examinations gone wrong, and right 
1:07:07 Signoff questions 

Quote 

“I think one of the best tools for witness control is some self-control. I always say that often—most of the time—when you get an answer you don’t like from a witness or that is not responsive, usually that’s a ‘you’ problem. You have not phrased the question well to ask the thing that you want an answer to. So the first thing I always think about when I think of a witness being out of control is whether I did a good job with my questions. Did I lead on cross? Am I introducing one fact and not asking for several facts at a time? Did I leave something up to interpretation?” Adrienne Johnson 

Resources 

Judge Amy Hanley (LinkedIn) 

Adrienne Johnson (LinkedIn) 

NITA Women in Trial (course) 

Direct Neglect: Where Is the Love?, with Judge Amy Hanley and Dennericka Brooks (episode) 

The Tense Trio, with Judge Amy Hanley and Cheryl Brown Wattley (episode) 

Justice at Trial, with Jim Brosnahan (episode) 

Give ‘em the Ol’ Razzle Dazzle, with Dominic Gianna (episode) 

In our second interview on The Effective Deposition, Program Director and author Carl Chamberlin returns to the podcast to talk about witness preparation. Joining him is NITA Trustee and Program Director Whitney Untiedt, and together they share tips and perspectives on witness prep sessions and how to ready your witness for the procedural and substantive aspects of being deposed. Carl and Whitney also talk about the ethics obligations of counsel and the ramifications of the recent ABA Formal Opinion 508. 

7:20   Timing and length of prep sessions
12:52 Tips to optimize prep
21:09 Procedure and process of being deposed
23:07 One concept and three rules
28:37 How witnesses should answer
34:15 Answering after an objection
36:21 Handling opposing counsels’ tactics
45:42 Goal of substantive preparation
49:54 Reluctance to disclose
55:57 Ethics obligations
58:28 Demo|
1:02:20  Implications of ABA Formal Op. 508
1:08:03  Signoff questions

 Quote
“We as lawyer operate on ‘our’ time. Our time is valuable, and our time is calculated in six-minute increments, and our time is scheduled to within an inch of our lives, but when we sit down with our witness for a depo prep session, it’s no longer our time. It’s our witness’s time. This is their time to shine.” Whitney Untiedt

Resources
Carl Chamberlin (LinkedIn)
Whitney Untiedt (LinkedIn)
The Effective Deposition: Techniques and Strategies that Work (book)
Beginning the Effective Deposition, with Carl Chamberlin (podcast)
Whitney Untiedt Puts the “Pro” in Pro Bono (podcast)
Deposition Skills: Florida (course)
ABA Formal Op. 508 (opinion)

Content warning: Mentions of sexual assault. Brief, non-graphic discussions of questioning the venire about sexual assault occur at 32:20–32:59 and 42:25–44:34.

Experienced trial lawyers are accustomed to being the ones asking the questions, but in this episode, NITA NextGen faculty member Adam Kendall finds himself in the hot seat for once.  He’s answering our questions about voir dire: building rapport with the venire through icebreakers and humor, eliciting useful information from potential jurors while introducing bad facts about your case, and what you can glean from jury questionnaires. Adam also talks about the developing trend of limiting or eliminating peremptory strikes.

Topics

3:39   Primary goal of voir dire

4:06   What to pay attention to

5:09   “The quiet one”

9:03   Icebreakers to build rapport

11:18 Voir dire by the judge

14:22 Strong personalities among jurors

16;25 Ideal foreperson qualities

17:50 Eliciting strong opinions and reactions

19:19 Introducing bad facts

21:12 Using humor

24:12 Signaling legal issues

26:27 Nationwide changes in peremptory strikes

32:05 Jury questionnaires

35:53 Online research of the venire

41:50 War stories

46:50 Signoff questions

Quote

“People who are too eager to be on a jury scare me.” Adam Kendall

Resources

Adam Kendall (LinkedIn)

Building Trial Skills: New Orleans (course)

Not Just for Trial! How to Use Exhibits from Day One (Register for Adam's live webcast on March 26, 2024)

Taking a deposition presents enough challenge as it is without the interference of obstreperous or obstructive counsel, yet it happens anyway and you must be prepared to deal with it. Following her appearance on a NITA panel webcast on depositions in November 2023, Assistant U.S. Attorney and Wilmington Law professor Veronica Finkelstein returns to NITA’s studio71 to answer viewers’ questions about how to manage misbehavior in the deposition room. She also reveals how to be a passionate advocate for your client without crossing those lines yourself, to reclaim your time when the opposition wastes it, and to wield the unexpected power of a deposition binder.

Topics

4:16    Counsel who won’t control their client

8:36    Witnesses “forgetting” their records

12:14 Counsel who try to confuse your witness

15:46 Disruptive, but not inappropriate, objections

19:21 Tracking time wasted on abusive conduct

23:26 Court reporter tracking wasted time

27:21 Being zealous but not obstreperous

29:37 Speaking objections

35:05 Continuing objections

39:51 Written discovery requests

43:36 “The usual stipulations”

46:58 Contents of a deposition binder

57:07 Signoff questions

Quote

“People get pretty quiet when you have the controlling case in your jurisdiction in your hand and they have nothing.” Veronica Finkelstein

Resources

Veronica Finkelstein (LinkedIn)

Reduce the Abuse: Managing Obstructive Opposing Counsel During Depositions (webcast)

Building Trial Skills: Colorado (course)

Cognitive bias is a barrier that lawyers must overcome in court—and it’s not just biases of the jurors they must consider, but those, too, of the judge, opposing counsel, expert witnesses, and even one’s own self. New Orleans trial legend Dominic Gianna returns to May the Record Reflect to talk about how persuasion science can help you clear the tricky bias barrier. He presents the five most consequential cognitive biases to trial lawyers, the impact each has on fact finders, and suggests how you can connect with a diversity of jurors in the post-truth era. 

Topics

4:08    What is cognitive bias?

6:55    Five common cognitive biases

7:35    Confirmation bias

10:40 Anchoring bias

13:31 Hindsight bias

18:00 Availability bias

24:48 Dom’s mantras for helping jurors process information

25:35 Affinity bias

28:52 Stupid lawyer tricks

32:18 Impact of our own biases

34:36 Biases from the bench

39:42 Appealing to a panel of judges

42:24 Expert witnesses bias impact on testimony, interpretation of evidence

44:09 Cognitive biases of opposing counsel

47:06 Persuasion in the post-truth era

57:51 Signoff questions

Quote

“Jurors don’t vote for the evidence. They vote for their views, and so as advocates, we have the obligation to our clients to try to understand those views. Where did those views come from? Where are they based? What attitudes, beliefs, and values, led these people, this person—this particular person—to a belief system that is so strong that he or she will ignore information that seemingly contradicts that confirmation bias?” Dominic Gianna

Resources

Dominic Gianna (LinkedIn)

Deposition Skills and Trial Skills: New Orleans (courses)

“Give ’em the Ol’ Razzle Dazzle (podcast episode)

“The Secrets of Persuasive Legal Storytelling,” with David Mann (podcast episode)

“Off Broadway and Into Court,” with Kevin Newbury and Kate Douglas (podcast episode)