The Sunday Times’ tech correspondent Danny Fortson brings on Michael Lewis, author of Moneyball and The Big Short, to talk about government as a manager of risk (3:35), the fifth risk (5:0), how Trump’s handling of the transition from Obama foreshadowed crisis (8:10), what he found inside the government (10:20), when he realised the nightmare scenario had arrived (12:50), why Donald Trump is responsible (15:50), why no one is surprised (19:35), the death clock (23:25), and why cowardice is dangerous (24:50).

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