Dave Morin goes hands-on with Apple's iPhone Duo, the crew tests Meta's new Muse agent and asks whether it can hold up once Google ships its own, and Dave explains why OpenAI's Astra is the first AI model in a long time that felt scary to use. Dave, Brit, and Jess break down the week (Sam's at the US Open). Also this week: a former Anthropic researcher's AI doom media tour, weeks before Anthropic's IPO, and whether it's a real warning or a play for regulatory capture. Plus the Apple Watch feature that transcribes your conversations all day, Jeffrey Katzenberg's new Hollywood AI venture, and the forgotten story of Venmo's viral billboards. In this episode:- Dave's hands-on take on the iPhone Duo, its $2,000 price, and why Apple is going foldable now- The Apple Watch feature that listens all day, and what it means for Granola- Meta's Muse agent: why it knew almost nothing when asked "what do you know about me?"- Why Google hasn't shipped its agent yet, and how trust vs. distribution shapes the agent wars- Why OpenAI's Astra felt scary to Dave, and what happens when you run millions of them at once- Dave's two takes on the AI doom media tour, including whether it's a play for regulatory capture- Why the AI labs can't slow down, and OpenAI's merge clause if someone else reaches AGI- The Venmo documentary and the "Lucas" billboards that went viral with almost no budget Chapters:00:00 Trailer01:26 Can AI Agents Win Your Fantasy Football League?02:39 Jess vs. the Bots: School Sign-Ups and Indian Wells Tickets05:28 Apple's Big Hardware Event Under Its New CEO06:07 iPhone Duo Hands-On: Size, Screen, and Camera09:35 Folded Modes, Kid Cam, and the $2,000 Price Tag11:41 Why Apple Is Going Foldable Now (Hint: China)12:13 Apple Watch Takes On Oura and Whoop13:12 Audio Intelligence: The Apple Watch That Listens All Day15:25 Always-On AI and Apple's Shot at OpenAI and Meta16:59 Meta's Muse Agent: What Does It Know About You?20:30 The Agent Wars: Muse, Instinct, Hermes, and OpenClaw22:26 Why Google Hasn't Shipped Its Agent Yet23:31 Trust vs. Distribution: Meta, Google, and OpenAI25:02 Harness Wars: Why Agents Are Still in 198227:13 Jeffrey Katzenberg's Hollywood AI Venture29:35 Anthropic's IPO and the AI Doom Media Tour30:56 If It Bleeds, It Leads: Why AI Fear Sells32:04 Take One: A Psyop for Regulatory Capture?33:43 Take Two: Why OpenAI's Astra Felt Scary36:49 Why the AI Labs Can't Slow Down38:14 OpenAI's AGI Merge Clause40:12 The Venmo Documentary and the Ace Hotel Origin Story45:02 How Venmo's "Lucas" Billboards Went Viral46:31 Coming Soon: Altman, Musk, and Facebook Movies47:41 US Open Picks and the 4 AM Match Problem We're also on:X: https://twitter.com/moreorlesspodInstagram: https://instagram.com/moreorlessSpotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/2CJdt6HhJ8ioNkbqqVKckCApple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/more-or-less-from-the-morins-and-the-lessins/id1692234179Full transcripts: https://moreorlesspod.com/episodes/ Connect with us here:Sam Lessin: https://x.com/lessinDave Morin: https://x.com/davemorinJessica Lessin: https://x.com/JessicalessinBrit Morin: https://x.com/brit About More or Less: For 15 years, the Morins and the Lessins have debated the future of Silicon Valley as the closest of friends. Every Friday, they break down technology, capital, and media. From The Information, Offline Ventures, and Slow Ventures.

Dave Morin goes hands-on with Apple's iPhone Duo, the crew tests Meta's new Muse agent and asks whether it can hold up once Google ships its own, and Dave explains why OpenAI's Astra is the first AI model in a long time that felt scary to use. Dave, Brit, and Jess break down the week (Sam's at the US Open). Also this week: a former Anthropic researcher's AI doom media tour, weeks before Anthropic's IPO, and whether it's a real warning or a play for regulatory capture. Plus the Apple Watch feature that transcribes your conversations all day, Jeffrey Katzenberg's new Hollywood AI venture, and the forgotten story of Venmo's viral billboards. In this episode: - Dave's hands-on take on the iPhone Duo, its $2,000 price, and why Apple is going foldable now - The Apple Watch feature that listens all day, and what it means for Granola - Meta's Muse agent: why it knew almost nothing when asked "what do you know about me?" - Why Google hasn't shipped its agent yet, and how trust vs. distribution shapes the agent wars - Why OpenAI's Astra felt scary to Dave, and what happens when you run millions of them at once - Dave's two takes on the AI doom media tour, including whether it's a play for regulatory capture - Why the AI labs can't slow down, and OpenAI's merge clause if someone else reaches AGI - The Venmo documentary and the "Lucas" billboards that went viral with almost no budget Chapters: 00:00 Trailer 01:26 Can AI Agents Win Your Fantasy Football League? 02:39 Jess vs. the Bots: School Sign-Ups and Indian Wells Tickets 05:28 Apple's Big Hardware Event Under Its New CEO 06:07 iPhone Duo Hands-On: Size, Screen, and Camera 09:35 Folded Modes, Kid Cam, and the $2,000 Price Tag 11:41 Why Apple Is Going Foldable Now (Hint: China) 12:13 Apple Watch Takes On Oura and Whoop 13:12 Audio Intelligence: The Apple Watch That Listens All Day 15:25 Always-On AI and Apple's Shot at OpenAI and Meta 16:59 Meta's Muse Agent: What Does It Know About You? 20:30 The Agent Wars: Muse, Instinct, Hermes, and OpenClaw 22:26 Why Google Hasn't Shipped Its Agent Yet 23:31 Trust vs. Distribution: Meta, Google, and OpenAI 25:02 Harness Wars: Why Agents Are Still in 1982 27:13 Jeffrey Katzenberg's Hollywood AI Venture 29:35 Anthropic's IPO and the AI Doom Media Tour 30:56 If It Bleeds, It Leads: Why AI Fear Sells 32:04 Take One: A Psyop for Regulatory Capture? 33:43 Take Two: Why OpenAI's Astra Felt Scary 36:49 Why the AI Labs Can't Slow Down 38:14 OpenAI's AGI Merge Clause 40:12 The Venmo Documentary and the Ace Hotel Origin Story 45:02 How Venmo's "Lucas" Billboards Went Viral 46:31 Coming Soon: Altman, Musk, and Facebook Movies 47:41 US Open Picks and the 4 AM Match Problem We're also on: X: https://twitter.com/moreorlesspod Instagram: https://instagram.com/moreorless Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/2CJdt6HhJ8ioNkbqqVKckC Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/more-or-less-from-the-morins-and-the-lessins/id1692234179 Full transcripts: https://moreorlesspod.com/episodes/ Connect with us here: Sam Lessin: https://x.com/lessin Dave Morin: https://x.com/davemorin Jessica Lessin: https://x.com/Jessicalessin Brit Morin: https://x.com/brit About More or Less: For 15 years, the Morins and the Lessins have debated the future of Silicon Valley as the closest of friends. Every Friday, they break down technology, capital, and media. From The Information, Offline Ventures, and Slow Ventures.

iPhone Duo, Meta Muse & Why AI Finally Scared Dave Morin

Finally, a full house week where Sam is back from New York and the squad is back for a full dive into this week’s AI drama. Anthropic's Dario wrote a long essay calling for the AI race to slow down, weeks before a multi-trillion dollar IPO. Dave's read: Anthropic must be losing. Sam's read: the labs are bad businesses with no compounding advantage, so regulatory capture is the only move left. Also this week: Sam's theory that OpenAI and Anthropic only become valuable as defense companies holding unreleased models in reserve, the poly-agent debate over whether normal people want one agent or ten, Instinct raising at $10 billion two weeks after $2.5 billion, and why everyone in the Valley is trading instead of investing.In this episode:- Why Dave thinks Dario’s slowdown essay is a sign Anthropic is falling behind, and what OpenRouter's data shows- Sam on why there's no return on being first, and why that pushes the labs toward regulatory capture- Brit on what's real in the safety debate, and the damned-if-you-do problem of racing China- What DeepMind's new boss and Satya Nadella think about building safety alongside the product- Sam's three eras of tech policy, from Bill Gates to embrace and extend- The defense company thesis: zero-day models held back like nuclear weapons in silos- Alignment's next frontier: is your agent working for you, or for the lab that made it?- Instinct's $10B round, OpenRouter's exit, and why Sam says he's "currently wrong" as a seed investor Chapters:00:00 Intro01:02 Not Dead Yet From the AGI03:31 Jacob Coxon Quits Anthropic and Goes on a Media Tour04:47 Dario's Slowdown Essay: Is Anthropic Just Losing?06:13 Astra, OpenRouter, and DeepSeek Closing the Gap06:45 Why the AI Labs Have No Compounding Advantage07:29 Independent Assessors, Bioweapons, and Racing China09:07 You Don't Need Superintelligence to Break the Banks10:23 What DeepMind's New Boss and Satya Think About Safety12:32 OpenAI's $1.5T Raise and the IPO That Keeps Slipping13:03 Three Eras of Tech Policy: Gates, Google, Embrace and Extend15:02 What DC Really Thinks About Anthropic15:42 Should the Labs Red Team Each Other's Models?18:42 Sam's Take: The AI Labs End Up as Defense Companies20:54 10,000 Superintelligences in Silos21:38 Alignment: Does Your Agent Work for You or the Lab?23:44 The Poly-Agent Future: Muse, Grok, and Claude24:47 Brit Pushes Back: Normal People Only Want One Agent26:38 Oura's Agent Explains Jess's Sleep Data28:40 Instinct Raising at $10B: Are These Numbers Fake?30:40 Everyone's Trading, Nobody's Investing33:27 Sam Built a Torah and Talmud App With Claude35:28 Apple Eyes the Server Business Again35:58 Sleep Age Wars: 8 Sleep, Oura, and Made-Up Scores37:22 Entertaining Ourselves to Death41:01 Building the Things Nobody Else Will Build43:07 Tech's Democrat Problem: Jay Carney and Ron Conway48:25 Doctor Strangelove and Not Looking at the Big Board49:53 Pop Culture: Emmys, Taylor Swift, Silo, and Rogue Heroes52:15 The WTF Lineup and the One-Name Theory54:20 The Information's Most Influential People in Tech We're also on:X: https://twitter.com/moreorlesspodInstagram: https://instagram.com/moreorlessSpotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/2CJdt6HhJ8ioNkbqqVKckCApple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/more-or-less-from-the-morins-and-the-lessins/id1692234179 Connect with us here:1) Sam Lessin: https://x.com/lessin2) Dave Morin: https://x.com/davemorin3) Jessica Lessin: https://x.com/Jessicalessin4) Brit Morin: https://x.com/britAbout More or Less: For 15 years, the Morins and the Lessins have debated the future of Silicon Valley as the closest of friends. Every Friday, they break down technology, capital, and media. From The Information, Offline Ventures, and Slow Ventures.

Finally, a full house week where Sam is back from New York and the squad is back for a full dive into this week’s AI drama. Anthropic's Dario wrote a long essay calling for the AI race to slow down, weeks before a multi-trillion dollar IPO. Dave's read: Anthropic must be losing. Sam's read: the labs are bad businesses with no compounding advantage, so regulatory capture is the only move left. Also this week: Sam's theory that OpenAI and Anthropic only become valuable as defense companies holding unreleased models in reserve, the poly-agent debate over whether normal people want one agent or ten, Instinct raising at $10 billion two weeks after $2.5 billion, and why everyone in the Valley is trading instead of investing. In this episode: - Why Dave thinks Dario’s slowdown essay is a sign Anthropic is falling behind, and what OpenRouter's data shows - Sam on why there's no return on being first, and why that pushes the labs toward regulatory capture - Brit on what's real in the safety debate, and the damned-if-you-do problem of racing China - What DeepMind's new boss and Satya Nadella think about building safety alongside the product - Sam's three eras of tech policy, from Bill Gates to embrace and extend - The defense company thesis: zero-day models held back like nuclear weapons in silos - Alignment's next frontier: is your agent working for you, or for the lab that made it? - Instinct's $10B round, OpenRouter's exit, and why Sam says he's "currently wrong" as a seed investor Chapters: 00:00 Intro 01:02 Not Dead Yet From the AGI 03:31 Jacob Coxon Quits Anthropic and Goes on a Media Tour 04:47 Dario's Slowdown Essay: Is Anthropic Just Losing? 06:13 Astra, OpenRouter, and DeepSeek Closing the Gap 06:45 Why the AI Labs Have No Compounding Advantage 07:29 Independent Assessors, Bioweapons, and Racing China 09:07 You Don't Need Superintelligence to Break the Banks 10:23 What DeepMind's New Boss and Satya Think About Safety 12:32 OpenAI's $1.5T Raise and the IPO That Keeps Slipping 13:03 Three Eras of Tech Policy: Gates, Google, Embrace and Extend 15:02 What DC Really Thinks About Anthropic 15:42 Should the Labs Red Team Each Other's Models? 18:42 Sam's Take: The AI Labs End Up as Defense Companies 20:54 10,000 Superintelligences in Silos 21:38 Alignment: Does Your Agent Work for You or the Lab? 23:44 The Poly-Agent Future: Muse, Grok, and Claude 24:47 Brit Pushes Back: Normal People Only Want One Agent 26:38 Oura's Agent Explains Jess's Sleep Data 28:40 Instinct Raising at $10B: Are These Numbers Fake? 30:40 Everyone's Trading, Nobody's Investing 33:27 Sam Built a Torah and Talmud App With Claude 35:28 Apple Eyes the Server Business Again 35:58 Sleep Age Wars: 8 Sleep, Oura, and Made-Up Scores 37:22 Entertaining Ourselves to Death 41:01 Building the Things Nobody Else Will Build 43:07 Tech's Democrat Problem: Jay Carney and Ron Conway 48:25 Doctor Strangelove and Not Looking at the Big Board 49:53 Pop Culture: Emmys, Taylor Swift, Silo, and Rogue Heroes 52:15 The WTF Lineup and the One-Name Theory 54:20 The Information's Most Influential People in Tech We're also on: X: https://twitter.com/moreorlesspod Instagram: https://instagram.com/moreorless Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/2CJdt6HhJ8ioNkbqqVKckC Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/more-or-less-from-the-morins-and-the-lessins/id1692234179 Connect with us here: 1) Sam Lessin: https://x.com/lessin 2) Dave Morin: https://x.com/davemorin 3) Jessica Lessin: https://x.com/Jessicalessin 4) Brit Morin: https://x.com/brit About More or Less: For 15 years, the Morins and the Lessins have debated the future of Silicon Valley as the closest of friends. Every Friday, they break down technology, capital, and media. From The Information, Offline Ventures, and Slow Ventures.

Finally, a full house week where Sam is back from New York and the squad is back for a full dive into this week’s AI drama. Anthropic's Dario wrote a long essay calling for the AI race to slow down, weeks before a multi-trillion dollar IPO. Dave's read: Anthropic must be losing. Sam's read: the labs are bad businesses with no compounding advantage, so regulatory capture is the only move left.&nbsp;Also this week: Sam's theory that OpenAI and Anthropic only become valuable as defense companies holding unreleased models in reserve, the poly-agent debate over whether normal people want one agent or ten, Instinct raising at $10 billion two weeks after $2.5 billion, and why everyone in the Valley is trading instead of investing.In this episode:- Why Dave thinks Dario’s slowdown essay is a sign Anthropic is falling behind, and what OpenRouter's data shows- Sam on why there's no return on being first, and why that pushes the labs toward regulatory capture- Brit on what's real in the safety debate, and the damned-if-you-do problem of racing China- What DeepMind's new boss and Satya Nadella think about building safety alongside the product- Sam's three eras of tech policy, from Bill Gates to embrace and extend- The defense company thesis: zero-day models held back like nuclear weapons in silos- Alignment's next frontier: is your agent working for you, or for the lab that made it?- Instinct's $10B round, OpenRouter's exit, and why Sam says he's "currently wrong" as a seed investor Chapters:00:00 Intro01:02 Not Dead Yet From the AGI03:31 Jacob Coxon Quits Anthropic and Goes on a Media Tour04:47 Dario's Slowdown Essay: Is Anthropic Just Losing?06:13 Astra, OpenRouter, and DeepSeek Closing the Gap06:45 Why the AI Labs Have No Compounding Advantage07:29 Independent Assessors, Bioweapons, and Racing China09:07 You Don't Need Superintelligence to Break the Banks10:23 What DeepMind's New Boss and Satya Think About Safety12:32 OpenAI's $1.5T Raise and the IPO That Keeps Slipping13:03 Three Eras of Tech Policy: Gates, Google, Embrace and Extend15:02 What DC Really Thinks About Anthropic15:42 Should the Labs Red Team Each Other's Models?18:42 Sam's Take: The AI Labs End Up as Defense Companies20:54 10,000 Superintelligences in Silos21:38 Alignment: Does Your Agent Work for You or the Lab?23:44 The Poly-Agent Future: Muse, Grok, and Claude24:47 Brit Pushes Back: Normal People Only Want One Agent26:38 Oura's Agent Explains Jess's Sleep Data28:40 Instinct Raising at $10B: Are These Numbers Fake?30:40 Everyone's Trading, Nobody's Investing33:27 Sam Built a Torah and Talmud App With Claude35:28 Apple Eyes the Server Business Again35:58 Sleep Age Wars: 8 Sleep, Oura, and Made-Up Scores37:22 Entertaining Ourselves to Death41:01 Building the Things Nobody Else Will Build43:07 Tech's Democrat Problem: Jay Carney and Ron Conway48:25 Doctor Strangelove and Not Looking at the Big Board49:53 Pop Culture: Emmys, Taylor Swift, Silo, and Rogue Heroes52:15 The WTF Lineup and the One-Name Theory54:20 The Information's Most Influential People in Tech We're also on:X: https://twitter.com/moreorlesspodInstagram: https://instagram.com/moreorlessSpotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/2CJdt6HhJ8ioNkbqqVKckCApple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/more-or-less-from-the-morins-and-the-lessins/id1692234179 Connect with us here:1) Sam Lessin: https://x.com/lessin2) Dave Morin: https://x.com/davemorin3) Jessica Lessin: https://x.com/Jessicalessin4) Brit Morin: https://x.com/britAbout More or Less: For 15 years, the Morins and the Lessins have debated the future of Silicon Valley as the closest of friends. Every Friday, they break down technology, capital, and media. From The Information, Offline Ventures, and Slow Ventures.

Anthropic Wants to Slow AI Down & Instinct Wants a $10B Valuation. Is It Because They're Losing? Is Dario Amodei Actually Right?

Stripe buys OpenRouter for billions, which naturally raises the question: did Stripe just buy critical AI infrastructure, or a very expensive router with great distribution? The original squad is back to debate why $7B acquisitions somehow feel normal now, whether Google already has agentic commerce won by owning your inbox, calendar, and Drive, and why Anthropic vs. OpenAI might be less about who has the best model and more about who built the right company. Sam makes the case that OpenAI pulled off the “greatest fundraising story in history,” Dave argues Grokbot might officially make AI a three-player race, and everyone tries to figure out how you price any of these companies when no lead seems to last. Plus, is AI a great investment or just a great trade, does the data center backlash actually have anything to do with data centers, have we built trillions of dollars of infrastructure before finding enough use cases for it, and, naturally in pop corner, Josh Kushner bought into the Lakers. Chapters:0:00 Episode trailer1:00 Episode start4:00 This week in AI5:00 Stripe buys OpenRouter8:30 Is OpenRouter actually worth billions?11:00 The agentic commerce bet14:00 Why Google could own the AI assistant17:30 The DOJ investigates Andreessen Horowitz22:00 Anthropic vs. OpenAI26:00 Why OpenAI is struggling in enterprise28:30 Can anyone actually price AI companies?30:00 OpenAI’s “greatest fundraising story in history”33:30 Is AI a great investment or just a great trade?36:00 SpaceX, Moderna and narrative capitalism37:30 Grok enters the AI race41:00 AI makes software increasingly disposable45:00 The AI data center backlash47:30 “The backlash is that AI sucks”48:30 Did we build too much AI infrastructure?53:30 Josh Kushner, Thrive and the Lakers55:30 Travis Kelce enters the NIL business We’re also on ↓X: https://twitter.com/moreorlesspodInstagram: https://instagram.com/moreorlessYouTube: https://youtu.be/Xwzl-Ihyyr0 Connect with us here:1) Sam Lessin: https://x.com/lessin2) Dave Morin: https://x.com/davemorin3) Jessica Lessin: https://x.com/Jessicalessin4) Brit Morin: https://x.com/brit

Stripe buys OpenRouter for billions, which naturally raises the question: did Stripe just buy critical AI infrastructure, or a very expensive router with great distribution? The original squad is back to debate why $7B acquisitions somehow feel normal now, whether Google already has agentic commerce won by owning your inbox, calendar, and Drive, and why Anthropic vs. OpenAI might be less about who has the best model and more about who built the right company. Sam makes the case that OpenAI pulled off the “greatest fundraising story in history,” Dave argues Grokbot might officially make AI a three-player race, and everyone tries to figure out how you price any of these companies when no lead seems to last. Plus, is AI a great investment or just a great trade, does the data center backlash actually have anything to do with data centers, have we built trillions of dollars of infrastructure before finding enough use cases for it, and, naturally in pop corner, Josh Kushner bought into the Lakers. Chapters: 0:00 Episode trailer 1:00 Episode start 4:00 This week in AI 5:00 Stripe buys OpenRouter 8:30 Is OpenRouter actually worth billions? 11:00 The agentic commerce bet 14:00 Why Google could own the AI assistant 17:30 The DOJ investigates Andreessen Horowitz 22:00 Anthropic vs. OpenAI 26:00 Why OpenAI is struggling in enterprise 28:30 Can anyone actually price AI companies? 30:00 OpenAI’s “greatest fundraising story in history” 33:30 Is AI a great investment or just a great trade? 36:00 SpaceX, Moderna and narrative capitalism 37:30 Grok enters the AI race 41:00 AI makes software increasingly disposable 45:00 The AI data center backlash 47:30 “The backlash is that AI sucks” 48:30 Did we build too much AI infrastructure? 53:30 Josh Kushner, Thrive and the Lakers 55:30 Travis Kelce enters the NIL business We’re also on ↓ X: https://twitter.com/moreorlesspod Instagram: https://instagram.com/moreorless YouTube: https://youtu.be/Xwzl-Ihyyr0 Connect with us here: 1) Sam Lessin: https://x.com/lessin 2) Dave Morin: https://x.com/davemorin 3) Jessica Lessin: https://x.com/Jessicalessin 4) Brit Morin: https://x.com/brit

Stripe Buys OpenRouter, OpenAI vs. Anthropic & the AI Backlash

A very special edition of More or Less, featuring Josh Wolfe (Founder, Lux Capital), Rachel Holt (Founder, Construct Capital; former Head of North America at Uber), Scott Belsky (Partner, A24; Founder, Behance), Scott Stanford (Founder, Acme Capital), and Peter Deng (GP, Felicis; formerly Google, Facebook, Instagram, Uber, Airtable, and OpenAI). Sam takes over hosting duties and assembles an overqualified group of investor friends to argue about where AI goes from here, from agents, Grok, Claude, and the shift from “help me do this” to “just do it,” to trust, data ownership, Apple’s AI advantage, open vs. closed models, model routing, and why proprietary data may become the real moat. They also dig into NVIDIA’s massive compute financing strategy, the risks of securitizing GPUs like long-lived infrastructure, what the OpenAI executive exodus says about the AI talent market, and the bigger question hanging over all of it: if AI really changes work, who actually participates in the upside? Chapters0:00 Episode trailer1:24 Episode start1:59 Meet the panel, every flavor of venture capital5:14 Consumer AI agents cross the Rubicon7:24 The end of websites, when agents talk to agents8:32 Which AI companies do you actually trust?11:41 Why Apple could win AI by doing nothing16:40 If models commoditize, unique data becomes the moat22:15 Open vs. closed AI, and who owns your data27:06 NVIDIA’s balance sheet shenanigans31:26 NVIDIA gets the upside, who gets the risk?34:31 Nobody has ever securitized compute35:02 Who owns the wealth AI creates?39:38 What happens when economic opportunity runs out?42:23 Why OpenAI’s best people keep leaving47:23 Why AI may look more like GPS than Facebook49:14 What actually happened with Airtable50:30 Lightning Round: Rachel Holt on physical-world investing53:00 Scott Belsky on AI watermarks, provenance & deepfakes54:15 Josh Wolfe on socialism, Europe & defense57:15 Final thoughts & sign-off We’re also on ↓X: https://twitter.com/moreorlesspodInstagram: https://instagram.com/moreorlessSpotify: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/moreorlesspodConnect with us here:1) Sam Lessin: https://x.com/lessin2) Dave Morin: https://x.com/davemorin3) Jessica Lessin: https://x.com/Jessicalessin4) Brit Morin: https://x.com/brit

A very special edition of More or Less, featuring Josh Wolfe (Founder, Lux Capital), Rachel Holt (Founder, Construct Capital; former Head of North America at Uber), Scott Belsky (Partner, A24; Founder, Behance), Scott Stanford (Founder, Acme Capital), and Peter Deng (GP, Felicis; formerly Google, Facebook, Instagram, Uber, Airtable, and OpenAI). Sam takes over hosting duties and assembles an overqualified group of investor friends to argue about where AI goes from here, from agents, Grok, Claude, and the shift from “help me do this” to “just do it,” to trust, data ownership, Apple’s AI advantage, open vs. closed models, model routing, and why proprietary data may become the real moat. They also dig into NVIDIA’s massive compute financing strategy, the risks of securitizing GPUs like long-lived infrastructure, what the OpenAI executive exodus says about the AI talent market, and the bigger question hanging over all of it: if AI really changes work, who actually participates in the upside? Chapters 0:00 Episode trailer 1:24 Episode start 1:59 Meet the panel, every flavor of venture capital 5:14 Consumer AI agents cross the Rubicon 7:24 The end of websites, when agents talk to agents 8:32 Which AI companies do you actually trust? 11:41 Why Apple could win AI by doing nothing 16:40 If models commoditize, unique data becomes the moat 22:15 Open vs. closed AI, and who owns your data 27:06 NVIDIA’s balance sheet shenanigans 31:26 NVIDIA gets the upside, who gets the risk? 34:31 Nobody has ever securitized compute 35:02 Who owns the wealth AI creates? 39:38 What happens when economic opportunity runs out? 42:23 Why OpenAI’s best people keep leaving 47:23 Why AI may look more like GPS than Facebook 49:14 What actually happened with Airtable 50:30 Lightning Round: Rachel Holt on physical-world investing 53:00 Scott Belsky on AI watermarks, provenance & deepfakes 54:15 Josh Wolfe on socialism, Europe & defense 57:15 Final thoughts & sign-off We’re also on ↓X: https://twitter.com/moreorlesspodInstagram: https://instagram.com/moreorlessSpotify: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/moreorlesspodConnect with us here:1) Sam Lessin: https://x.com/lessin2) Dave Morin: https://x.com/davemorin3) Jessica Lessin: https://x.com/Jessicalessin4) Brit Morin: https://x.com/brit

A very special edition of More or Less, featuring Josh Wolfe (Founder, Lux Capital), Rachel Holt (Founder, Construct Capital; former Head of North America at Uber), Scott Belsky (Partner, A24; Founder, Behance), Scott Stanford (Founder, Acme Capital), and Peter Deng (GP, Felicis; formerly Google, Facebook, Instagram, Uber, Airtable, and OpenAI). Sam takes over hosting duties and assembles an overqualified group of investor friends to argue about where AI goes from here, from agents, Grok, Claude, and the shift from “help me do this” to “just do it,” to trust, data ownership, Apple’s AI advantage, open vs. closed models, model routing, and why proprietary data may become the real moat. They also dig into NVIDIA’s massive compute financing strategy, the risks of securitizing GPUs like long-lived infrastructure, what the OpenAI executive exodus says about the AI talent market, and the bigger question hanging over all of it: if AI really changes work, who actually participates in the upside? Chapters0:00 Episode trailer1:24 Episode start1:59 Meet the panel, every flavor of venture capital5:14 Consumer AI agents cross the Rubicon7:24 The end of websites, when agents talk to agents8:32 Which AI companies do you actually trust?11:41 Why Apple could win AI by doing nothing16:40 If models commoditize, unique data becomes the moat22:15 Open vs. closed AI, and who owns your data27:06 NVIDIA’s balance sheet shenanigans31:26 NVIDIA gets the upside, who gets the risk?34:31 Nobody has ever securitized compute35:02 Who owns the wealth AI creates?39:38 What happens when economic opportunity runs out?42:23 Why OpenAI’s best people keep leaving47:23 Why AI may look more like GPS than Facebook49:14 What actually happened with Airtable50:30 Lightning Round: Rachel Holt on physical-world investing53:00 Scott Belsky on AI watermarks, provenance &amp; deepfakes54:15 Josh Wolfe on socialism, Europe &amp; defense57:15 Final thoughts &amp; sign-off We’re also on ↓X: https://twitter.com/moreorlesspodInstagram: https://instagram.com/moreorlessSpotify: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/moreorlesspodConnect with us here:1) Sam Lessin: https://x.com/lessin2) Dave Morin: https://x.com/davemorin3) Jessica Lessin: https://x.com/Jessicalessin4) Brit Morin: https://x.com/brit

Special Edition MOL with Josh Wolfe, Rachel Holt, Scott Belsky, Scott Stanford, and Peter Deng

Plus, Sam's Instagram splurge and new science on how women should work out.

Plus, Sam's Instagram splurge and new science on how women should work out.

#59: Google: Can it Outrun Regulation?

Plus, why you should short Nvidia (but don't) plus Silicon Valley swarms the Hamptons.

Plus, why you should short Nvidia (but don't) plus Silicon Valley swarms the Hamptons.

#58: The Death of Friends

Plus, the Morins teach the Lessins about streetwear and BRAT culture. And the full quad debates ideas for both presidential candidates' social media teams.

Plus, the Morins teach the Lessins about streetwear and BRAT culture. And the full quad debates ideas for both presidential candidates' social media teams.

#57: Zuckerberg’s Open Source AI Manifesto

Inside the moves and motivations behind the new wave of Trump-VC endorsements. Plus, Sam returns from Kilimanjaro.

Inside the moves and motivations behind the new wave of Trump-VC endorsements. Plus, Sam returns from Kilimanjaro.

#56: Trump and the PayPal Mafia

Plus, techies and their quantified sports.

Plus, techies and their quantified sports.

#55: The Modern Press Playbook with Jess

Who is in—and out—at this year's annual Allen & Co. conference? Plus, racquet sports, robots, and how the summer is shaping up in tech.

Who is in—and out—at this year's annual Allen & Co. conference? Plus, racquet sports, robots, and how the summer is shaping up in tech.

Who is in—and out—at this year's annual Allen &amp; Co. conference? Plus, racquet sports, robots, and how the summer is shaping up in tech.

#54: Sun Valley, Tennis and Robots: Summer Adventure Preview

Are IPOs relevant? RIP AGI? The gang looks back on our debates and predictions and how we'd refine our views based on what we know now.

Are IPOs relevant? RIP AGI? The gang looks back on our debates and predictions and how we'd refine our views based on what we know now.

#53: What We Got Wrong—and Right—in a Year of More or Less

The gang focuses on the exit opportunities for AI startups and whether there will be a growing wave of AI buyouts. Plus, debating the surgeon general's warning about social networks and kids.

The gang focuses on the exit opportunities for AI startups and whether there will be a growing wave of AI buyouts. Plus, debating the surgeon general's warning about social networks and kids.

The gang focuses on the exit opportunities for AI startups and whether there will be a growing wave of AI buyouts. Plus, debating the&nbsp;surgeon general's warning about social networks and kids.

#52: Elad Gil on What to Build in AI (Part II)

The prolific AI investor joins the gang to discuss OpenAI, Apple and the AI deals he is—and isn't—doing and why. Plus, what's in Vinod's ChatGPT history.

The prolific AI investor joins the gang to discuss OpenAI, Apple and the AI deals he is—and isn't—doing and why. Plus, what's in Vinod's ChatGPT history.

#51: Vinod Khosla on What to Build in AI

The gang kicks off a new series about what entrepreneurs should build with a sector close to our heart. Plus, Brit details the Life360 U.S. IPO and Jess flaunts some new merch.

The gang kicks off a new series about what entrepreneurs should build with a sector close to our heart. Plus, Brit details the Life360 U.S. IPO and Jess flaunts some new merch.

#50: Startups to Start: Media Edition

Dave Morin, Jessica Lessin, Brit Morin, and Sam Lessin have debated the future of Silicon Valley and tech as the closest of friends for the last 15 years. Now six companies, two venture funds and more than a decade at Google, Apple and Facebook later, they are opening up the debate. From The Information, Offline Ventures, and Slow Ventures. 

Follow the crew: 
http://x.com/davemorin
http://x.com/brit
http://x.com/lessin
http:/x.com/jessicalessin

Follow the pod:
https://moreorlesspod.com/
http://youtube.com/moreorlesspod
https://x.com/moreorlesspod

Technology

Dave Morin, Jessica Lessin, Brit Morin, and Sam Lessin have debated the future of Silicon Valley and tech as the closest of friends for the last 15 years. Now six companies, two venture funds and more than a decade at Google, Apple and Facebook later, they are opening up the debate. From The Information, Offline Ventures, and Slow Ventures. Follow the crew: http://x.com/davemorin http://x.com/brit http://x.com/lessin http:/x.com/jessicalessin Follow the pod: https://moreorlesspod.com/ http://youtube.com/moreorlesspod https://x.com/moreorlesspod

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