We treat the self as bedrock. But look closely, and the ground gives way. Over the last century, quantum physics has systematically dismantled the illusion of a constant, solid material reality. A particle has no properties until it meets another. A color lives in the meeting of object and eye, not in the object. The self may be the same. Not a thing you carry, but something that happens between you and everyone else.

In this episode, physicist Carlo Rovelli takes the relational thinking behind his physics and turns it on consciousness. The question we treat as deepest, what the self is, is the wrong question. A riddle with no answer. The self is not an illusion. It’s just made of everything around it. Your family, friends, partner, even enemies. Take the relations away, and there’s no there there.

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Mentioned in this Episode:

White Holes — Carlo Rovelli (Book, 2023)

The Fundamental Wisdom of the Middle Way: Nagarjuna's Mulamadhyamakakarika — Nagarjuna, translated by Jay L. Garfield (Book, 1995) 

The Complete Works of Zhuangzi — translated by Burton Watson (Book, 2013) 

Duino Elegies & The Sonnets to Orpheus — Rainer Maria Rilke, translated by Stephen Mitchell (Book, 1923)

Where to Find Carlo Rovelli:

Academic homepage

Centre de Physique Théorique 

X (Twitter): @carlorovelli 

Berggruen Institute profile

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Credits 

Executive Producers: Nicolas Berggruen, Nathan Gardels, Nils Gilman, Dawn Nakagawa, & Jason Hoch

Producers: Grant Slater, Alex Gardels, & Nathalia Ramos

Associate Producer: Elissa Mardiney

Theme Music: Marcus Bagala

Audio Engineer: Aaron Bastinelli & Kyle Scott Wilson

Futurology is a production of Studio B and Wavland for the Berggruen Institute in Los Angeles, California.