The Sunday after Magic Johnson announced his HIV-status, Jim Mitulski preached a sermon on being tired of people dying. We’re sharing it as an interlude, a pause, and an immersion into one moment in AIDS’ bleak midwinter. 

For images and links about this episode visit https://www.heavenpodcast.org/interlude.

In the sermon Rev. Mitulski refers to ARC. That means AIDS-Related Complex, a diagnostic category meant to indicate an earlier stage of HIV infection than AIDS. It was common in the period to hear references to both AIDS and ARC. 

“Old Devil Time” is by Pete Seeger. The AIDS verses are by MCC San Francisco congregant Paul Francis. 

You can see Magic Johnson's press release, announcing his HIV status here. 

The biblical passage Rev. Mitulski is preaching on is John 11:1-44.

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When We All Get to Heaven is produced by Eureka Street Productions. It is co-created by Lynne Gerber, Siri Colom, and Ariana Nedelman. Our story editor is Sayre Quevedo. Our sound designer is David Herman. Our managing producer is Krissy Clark. Tim Dillinger is our consulting producer and Betsy Towner Levine is our fact-checker. We had additional story editing help from Sarah Ventre, Arwen Nicks, Allison Behringer, and Krissy Clark. For a complete list of credits, please visit https://www.heavenpodcast.org/credits.

This project received generous support from individual donors, the Henry Luce Foundation (www.hluce.org), the E. Rhodes and Leona B. Carpenter Foundation, and California Humanities, a non-profit partner of the National Endowment for the Humanities (www.CalHum.org).

Eureka Street Productions has 501c3 status through our fiscal sponsor FJC: A Foundation of Philanthropic Funds.

The music for this episode is from the Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco’s archive. It was performed by MCC-SF’s musicians and members with Bob Crocker and Jack Hoggatt-St.John as music directors. Additional music is by Domestic BGM. 

Great thanks, as always, to the members and clergy of the Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco who made this project possible.  

Some links to good groups:

AIDS Healthcare Foundation – provides medical care and support for people living with HIV/AIDS and preventative care for people at risk for contracting it. 

The Magic Johnson Foundation – founded to address HIV/AIDS. Expanded to include education and community engagement. 

San Francisco AIDS Foundation – a place to seek information about HIV. 

POZ Magazine – a place to learn everything else about HIV (information included).
Save AIDS Research – their recent, epic 24 hours to Save Research conference with all the latest HIV research is available on YouTube through this site.

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San Francisco’s gay/lesbian community in the 1980s wasn’t just facing an AIDS crisis, they also struggled against ongoing  anti-gay violence. In 1989, in the midst of a campaign to legally establish anti-gay violence as a hate crime, MCC San Francisco made headlines when their AIDS minister was attacked in her home. The city, the police department, and the LGBTQ community rallied around the church and the minister. And when they finally solved the puzzle of who did it, the answer shocked the church. 

For images and links about this episode visit https://www.heavenpodcast.org/episode-6.

The voices from the service after the first attack include

Rev. Troy Perry, Universal Fellowship of Metropolitan Community Churches – “If you come for one of us, you come for all of us.” 

Kevin Calegari, Dignity San Francisco – “Somebody by the name of Jesus…”

Harry Britt, San Francisco City Supervisor – “It hurts to be reminded of the power of evil.”

Gayle Orr-Smith, representative of the Mayor’s Office – “I am moved when I hear you say you are an angry people.” 

Rev. Duane Wilkerson, United Methodist Church – “But in the event that doubt has crept into your mind…” 

Rev. Troy Perry, Universal Fellowship of Metropolitan Community Churches – “And to the enemies who are attacking us…”

“The Call” is by George Herber with music by Vaughan Williams. The soloist is Bob Crocker.

“Nearer My God to Thee” is by Sarah Flowers Abrams.

Some links to good groups

Community United Against Violence – still working for safe communities for queer people. 

National Alliance on Mental Illness LGBTQI Information Page

The Shanti Project - is a pioneering nonprofit that builds human connections to reduce isolation, enhance health and well-being, and improve quality of life. It innovated enduring models of attentive companionship to people facing the end of life through their work during the height of the AIDS crisis. 

The Trevor Project – the leading suicide prevention and crisis intervention non-profit organization for LGBTQ+ young people. 

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Production credits: 

When We All Get to Heaven is produced by Eureka Street Productions. It is co-created by Lynne Gerber, Siri Colom, and Ariana Nedelman. Our story editor is Sayre Quevedo. Our sound designer is David Herman. Our managing producer is Krissy Clark. Tim Dillinger is our consulting producer and Betsy Towner Levine is our fact-checker. We had additional story editing help from Sarah Ventre, Arwen Nicks, Allison Behringer, and Krissy Clark. For a complete list of credits, please visit http://heavenpodcast.org/credits.

This project received generous support from individual donors, the Henry Luce Foundation (www.hluce.org), the E. Rhodes and Leona B. Carpenter Foundation, and California Humanities, a non-profit partner of the National Endowment for the Humanities (www.CalHum.org).

Eureka Street Productions has 501c3 status through our fiscal sponsor FJC: A Foundation of Philanthropic Funds.

The music for this episode is from the Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco’s archive. It was performed by MCC-SF’s musicians and members with Bob Crocker and Jack Hoggatt-St.John as music directors. Additional music is by Domestic BGM. 

Special thanks to Kelsy Pacha, Dr. Janis Whitlock, and Dr. Mary Hunt for consulting with us about this episode. 

Great thanks, as always, to the members and clergy of the Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco who made this project possible. 

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When Rev. Ron Russell Coons got diagnosed with AIDS he thought a lot about what healing meant when death was certain. He pursued it in his strained and broken family relationships and he preached about it from the pulpit. Though he knew, without a doubt, that he would die from AIDS, Ron claimed that he believed in and had experienced healing. What does healing mean when everybody knows it can’t mean survival? Maybe healing is one’s biological family and queer kin showing up and reaching for connection across those fractures.

For images and links about this episode visit https://www.heavenpodcast.org/episode-5.

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When We All Get to Heaven is produced by Eureka Street Productions. It is co-created by Lynne Gerber, Siri Colom, and Ariana Nedelman. Our story editor is Sayre Quevedo. Our sound designer is David Herman. Our managing producer is Krissy Clark. Tim Dillinger is our consulting producer and Betsy Towner Levine is our fact-checker. We had additional story editing help from Sarah Ventre, Arwen Nicks, Allison Behringer, and Krissy Clark. For a complete list of credits, please visit https://www.heavenpodcast.org/credits.

This project received generous support from individual donors, the Henry Luce Foundation (www.hluce.org), the E. Rhodes and Leona B. Carpenter Foundation, and California Humanities, a non-profit partner of the National Endowment for the Humanities (www.CalHum.org).

Eureka Street Productions has 501c3 status through our fiscal sponsor FJC: A Foundation of Philanthropic Funds.

The music for this episode is from the Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco’s archive. It was performed by MCC-SF’s musicians and members with Bob Crocker and Jack Hoggatt-St.John as music directors. Additional music is by Domestic BGM. 

“When the Roll is Called Up Yonder” is by James Milton Black. 

“Give Me Jesus” is a traditional spiritual arrangement by Charles Ivey. The soloist is Maria Barnet. 

“It is Well with My Soul,” also known as “When Peace, Like a River,” is by Horatio Spafford.

Thanks to 

Ron’s family for speaking with us on and off the record. We know this was a stretch and we appreciate it.

Dr. Joseph Marchal, for helping us understand Ron’s “We Have AIDS” sermon and the biblical text it was based on. It’ll be a great special episode one day. 

Steve Russell for sharing his memories of Ron and his brother, Chuck Russell Coons.

Great thanks, as always, to the members and clergy of the Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco who made this project possible.

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As MCC grew as a denomination, they tried to figure out if and how to relate to other churches. Would any befriend a queer church? And if so, would that friendship help other churches shift their perspective on homosexuality? These questions got harder as AIDS numbers grew—it made people more afraid yet friendship more vital. But sometimes friendship emerges in the most unlikely of places. Like when a children’s choir visited an AIDS ward in San Francisco and sang for an MCC member there. That connection started a partnership between their churches that changed them both.

For images and links about this episode visit https://www.heavenpodcast.org/episode-4.

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Production credits: 

When We All Get to Heaven is produced by Eureka Street Productions. It is co-created by Lynne Gerber, Siri Colom, and Ariana Nedelman. Our story editor is Sayre Quevedo. Our sound designer is David Herman. Our managing producer is Krissy Clark. Tim Dillinger is our consulting producer and Betsy Towner Levine is our fact-checker. We had additional story editing help from Sarah Ventre, Arwen Nicks, Allison Behringer, and Krissy Clark. For a complete list of credits, please visit https://www.heavenpodcast.org/credits.

This project received generous support from individual donors, the Henry Luce Foundation (www.hluce.org), the E. Rhodes and Leona B. Carpenter Foundation, and California Humanities, a non-profit partner of the National Endowment for the Humanities (www.CalHum.org).

Eureka Street Productions has 501c3 status through our fiscal sponsor FJC: A Foundation of Philanthropic Funds.

The music for this episode is from the Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco’s archive. It was performed by MCC-SF’s musicians and members with Bob Crocker and Jack Hoggatt-St.John as music directors. Additional music is by Domestic BGM.

“Who Kept Us” is by Dr. Margaret Douroux.

“The Wicked Shall Cease” is by Jessy Dixon.

“Jesus is Here Right Now” is by Leon Roberts.

“Child of God” and “Walk Together Children” are traditional African American spirituals. 

Special thanks to

Mary Clover Obrzut, Stephen’s sister, for insights into his life and for so much great audio.

Dr. Cheryl Townsend Gilkes for telling us about Stephen’s time at Union Baptist and connecting us with folks there. 

Alfred Williams for helping us get connected to Double Rock.

Dr. April Parker and Mardy Coates for facilitating the use of “Who Kept Us.” 

And to the folks at Double Rock Baptist Church, past and present, especially the beloved Minister of Music.  

Great thanks, as always, to the members and clergy of the Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco who made this project possible.  

Some links to good groups

Balm in Gilead – works to integrate public health and faith principles. It was founded by Dr. Pernessa Seale in to help Black churches address HIV/AIDS and support people and families living with AIDS.

Double Rock Baptist Church – is still worshipping and ministering in Bayview/Hunters Point. They were deeply involved in community support during the Covid-19 epidemic. 

Love All People – is the ministry that introduced MCC to Margaret Douroux’s song, Who Kept Us, to MCC. 

National Minority AIDS Council – works for heath equality and racial justice to end the AIDS epidemic.

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In the late ‘80s, two MCC San Francisco ministers wrote an article called “We Are the Church Alive, the Church with AIDS.” We wanted to know how a gay/lesbian church came to call itself “a church with AIDS.” The answers lie in the years before our audio archive begins. So we started asking people. We explore two stories in what’s likely a more complicated shift. One story is about a pair of religion geeks who learned to make queer church in New York during the early years of the AIDS crisis and then came to San Francisco to lead MCCSF. And the other is how an Easter Sunday ritual made the Christian hope of life through death viscerally real.

“We Are the Church Alive, the Church with AIDS,” by Kittredge Cherry and Jamies Mitulski was published in the Christian Century on January 27, 1988.

For images and links about this episode visit https://www.heavenpodcast.org/episode-3.

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Production credits: 

When We All Get to Heaven is produced by Eureka Street Productions. It is co-created by Lynne Gerber, Siri Colom, and Ariana Nedelman. Our story editor is Sayre Quevedo. Our sound designer is David Herman. Our managing producer is Krissy Clark. Tim Dillinger is our consulting producer and Betsy Towner Levine is our fact-checker. We had additional story editing help from Sarah Ventre, Arwen Nicks, Allison Behringer, and Krissy Clark. For a complete list of credits, please visit http://heavenpodcast.org/credits.

This project received generous support from individual donors, the Henry Luce Foundation (www.hluce.org), the E. Rhodes and Leona B. Carpenter Foundation, and California Humanities, a non-profit partner of the National Endowment for the humanities (www.CalHum.org).

Eureka Street Productions has 501c3 status through our fiscal sponsor FJC: A Foundation of Philanthropic Funds.

The music for this episode is from the Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco’s archive. It was performed by MCC-SF’s musicians and members with Bob Crocker and Jack Hoggatt-St.John as music directors. Additional music is by Tasty Morsels. 

“We See You God” is a variation on the anonymously written hymn “We See the Lord.”

The soloist in “I Lift Mine Eyes Up” is Bob Crocker. It’s by Antonin Dvorak, Biblical Songs, Op. 99, no. 9 on Psalm 121. 

“Hush, Hush. Somebody’s Calling My Name” is a traditional African American spiritual. 

Great thanks, as always, to the members and clergy of the Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco who made this project possible.  

Some links to good groups:

The Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco – the congregation’s current website. 

Metropolitan Community Churches – the denomination of which MCC San Francisco is a part. 

San Francisco AIDS Foundation – a place to seek information about HIV. 

POZ Magazine – a place to learn everything else about HIV (information included).

Save AIDS Research – their recent, epic 24 hours to Save Research conference with all the latest HIV research is available on YouTube through this site.   
LGBTQ Religious Archives Network – the place to get lost in LGBTQ+ religious history.

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Why would an out queer person in the Gay Liberation Days of the 1970s go to church? What church would they go to? And why would they stay? In the 1960s, and ‘70s, the separation between God and gays was not as vast as it seemed. Rev. Troy Perry started the first Metropolitan Community Church in his Los Angeles living room. Tired of flying to LA every week, a Navy veteran started the second one in a San Francisco gay bar. And the Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco was there for a young lesbian as she navigated spirituality, coming out, and her increasingly conservative family. When her friend got sick, she tried to be there for him. Church helped.      

For images and links about this episode visit https://www.heavenpodcast.org/episode-2.

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Production credits: 

When We All Get to Heaven is produced by Eureka Street Productions. It is co-created by Lynne Gerber, Siri Colom, and Ariana Nedelman. Our story editor is Sayre Quevedo. Our sound designer is David Herman. Our managing producer is Krissy Clark. Tim Dillinger is our consulting producer and Betsy Towner Levine is our fact-checker. We had additional story editing help from Sarah Ventre, Arwen Nicks, Allison Behringer, and Krissy Clark. For a complete list of credits, please visit http://heavenpodcast.org/credits.

This project received generous support from individual donors, the Henry Luce Foundation (www.hluce.org), the E. Rhodes and Leona B. Carpenter Foundation, and California Humanities, a non-profit partner of the National Endowment for the humanities (www.CalHum.org).

Eureka Street Productions has 501c3 status through our fiscal sponsor FJC: A Foundation of Philanthropic Funds.

The music for this episode is from the Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco’s archive. It was performed by MCC-SF’s musicians and members with Bob Crocker and Jack Hoggatt-St.John as music directors. Additional music is by Tasty Morsels. 

Thanks to

Dr. Heather White, author of Reforming Sodom: Protestants and the Rise of Gay Rights.

Scott Bloom and Trogoidia Pictures for the use of clips from the film Call Me Troy.

The Center for LGBTQ and Gender Studies at the Pacific School of Religion and the Graduate Theological Union for the use of an archival recording of Troy Perry’s last sermon as the minister at MCC Los Angeles. 

Kirke Machem for the use of his beautiful composition, “Blow Ye, the Trumpet,” from the opera, John Brown.

Great thanks, as always, to the members and clergy of the Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco who made this project possible.

Some links to good groups:

The Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco – the congregation’s current website. 

Metropolitan Community Churches – the denomination of which MCC San Francisco is a part. 

San Francisco AIDS Foundation – a place to seek information about HIV. 

POZ Magazine – a place to learn everything else about HIV (information included).

Save AIDS Research – their recent, epic 24 hours to Save Research conference with all the latest HIV research is available on YouTube through this site.   

LGBTQ Religious Archives Network – the place to get lost in LGBTQ+ religious history.

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

As Outward proudly presents the 10-episode series When We All Get to Heaven, from Eureka Street Productions, Christina and Bryan had the privilege of sitting down with series host Lynne Gerber. Lynne explains how 1,200 cassette tapes became a wealth of archival audio that infuses this series with so much vitality, joy, and shared mourning of queer churches during a devastating epidemic.

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Produced by Palace Shaw.

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In 1993, more than 10 years into the AIDS epidemic, the Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco (MCC-SF) tries to remember all they’ve lost. We think about remembering too after encountering an archive of 1,200 cassette recordings of this queer church’s services during the height of the epidemic. Whether you’re a regular church goer or would never step into one, we invite you to spend time with this LGBTQ+ San Francisco church as it struggles to reconcile sexuality and faith in the midst of an existential crisis. 

For images and links about this episode visit https://www.heavenpodcast.org/episode-1.

About the montage: The worship service in this episode was on February 28, 1993. The Dyke March proclamation was written and read by Rev. Lea Brown. Rev. Karen Foster read the statement that sexual orientation does not need to be changed. Jim Mitulski recalled his hospital visit with the man who recognized him by his shape. Paul Francis told strangers at a restaurant to get ugly lovers and Eric Rofes told his mother that he was going to stay safe and keep having sex. Cleve Jones had the vision of a thousand rotting corpses, Rev. Ron Russell Coons preached that we have AIDS as a community, and Rev. Troy Perry proclaimed a revival on Eureka Street. The other people heard in the episode are either unknown or did not want to be named.   

When We All Get to Heaven is produced by Eureka Street Productions. It is co-created by Lynne Gerber, Siri Colom, and Ariana Nedelman. Our story editor is Sayre Quevedo. Our sound designer is David Herman. Our managing producer is Krissy Clark. Tim Dillinger is our consulting producer and Betsy Towner Levine is our fact-checker. We had additional story editing help from Sarah Ventre, Arwen Nicks, Allison Behringer, and Krissy Clark. For a complete list of credits, please visit http://heavenpodcast.org/credits.

This project received generous support from individual donors, the Henry Luce Foundation (www.hluce.org), the E. Rhodes and Leona B. Carpenter Foundation, and California Humanities, a non-profit partner of the National Endowment for the Humanities (www.CalHum.org).

Eureka Street Productions has 501c3 status through our fiscal sponsor FJC: A Foundation of Philanthropic Funds.

The music for this episode is from the Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco’s archive. It was performed by MCC-SF’s musicians and members with Bob Crocker and Jack Hoggatt-St.John as music directors. Additional music is by Tasty Morsels. 

Thanks to

Great thanks, as always, to the members and clergy of the Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco who made this project possible. 

Get more Outward with Slate Plus! Join for weekly bonus episodes of Outward and ad-free listening on all your favorite Slate podcasts. Subscribe from the Outward show page on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, or visit slate.com/outwardplus for access wherever you listen.

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

When We All Get to Heaven tells the story of one of the first LGBTQ-positive churches, the Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco (MCC-SF), and how it faced the personal, social, and political trials of the AIDS epidemic, including the deaths of hundreds of its members. This 10-episode series uses historical tapes rescued from the church to bring listeners into the heart of a community struggling to live while struggling with faith. The first two episodes are available here at Outward on October 15.  

This show is produced by Eureka Street Productions. Our theme song, “When We All Get to Heaven,” was written by Eliza Hewitt and performed by MCC-SF’s congregation and choir.

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Trans rights and access to health care have been under attack on the state level for years, but the second Trump administration and the Supreme Court have accelerated a chilling effect at clinics across the country.

Guest: Grace Byron, author of “The Grim State of Trans Health Care” and “The Bureaucratic Nightmares of Being Trans Under Trump” for the New Yorker. 

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Podcast production by Ethan Oberman, Elena Schwartz, Paige Osburn, Anna Phillips, Madeline Ducharme, and Rob Gunther.

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