Our friends at Selects bring you this documentary from 2010 looking at the debate among LGBTQ folks in San Francisco around the fight for gay marriage and the cost of that fight borne by other parts of the broader community. 

The Selects Podcast is a free, twice-monthly show that is bringing you unearthed audio works that we’ve found buried in web archives, radio streams, and early podcasts. It’s hosted by Mitra Kaboli, whose work you may have heard on Welcome to Provincetown and The Heart. 

In addition to the free podcast, there’s a whole collection with exclusive shows and robust show notes looking at the history of these works and how they fit into the bigger audio landscape.

The Selects Podcast aims to preserve work that is being lost to digital time - these are award-winning documentaries made by some of the best in the medium, but they are getting lost in web archives and defunct podcast feeds.  Listening helps give these works a new life, something that can help make the audio industry more sustainable.

Learn more about Selects at https://selects.supportingcast.fm/

Beyond Gay Marriage was hosted and produced by Lisa Dettmer and co-produced bt Elena Botkin-Levy. Financial support was provided by Astraea Foundation and Making Contact at the National Radio Project. Lisa Dettmer is a radio producer with the feminist radio show "Women’s Magazine" at KPFA Radio in Berkeley, California, which can be heard at kpfa.org/program/womens-magazine.

Learn more about Selects at https://selects.supportingcast.fm/

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As When We All Get to Heaven wraps up, Christina sits down with series host Lynne Gerber and producer Siri Colom. They discuss how the church has changed, the value of fleeting queer spaces, and what a decade or more spent working on this story has meant to—and taught—them.

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Produced by Palace Shaw and Merritt Jacob.

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In the final episode of When We All Get to Heaven, we catch up on what’s happened in the many years between the emergence of effective treatment for AIDS in the late ‘90s and the fall of 2025, when we recorded this episode. We linger on a moment back in June 1999, when Jim was still pastor and called on the church to remember that AIDS wasn’t over. Because—advances notwithstanding—it still isn’t over.   

For more on Gilbert Baker and the history of the rainbow flag see the  Gilbert Baker Foundation.

For more on Prep see San Francisco AIDS Foundation, What is PrEP? 

“The Path that Ends AIDS: 2023 UNAIDS Global Update” outlines a possible end to the AIDS epidemic. 

The story of Jacob’s Ladder is in the book of Genesis chapter 28, verses 10-19.

The text for “This is the Day that God Has Made” is biblical with music by Leon C. Roberts.

“We are Climbing Jacob’s Ladder” is a traditional hymn.

“This Little Light of Mine” – text traditional, music by Penelope Gneisen

“Song of the Soul” is by Cris Williamson and was sung by her at MCC San Francisco on April 24, 2000. 

For images and links about this episode visit https://www.heavenpodcast.org/episode-10.

When We All Get to Heaven is produced by Eureka Street Productions. It is co-created by Lynne Gerber, Siri Colom, and Ariana Nedelman. Our story editor is Sayre Quevedo. Our sound designer is David Herman. Our managing producer is Krissy Clark. Tim Dillinger is our consulting producer and Betsy Towner Levine is our fact-checker. We had additional story editing help from Sarah Ventre, Arwen Nicks, Allison Behringer, and Krissy Clark. For a complete list of credits, please visit https://www.heavenpodcast.org/credits.

This project received generous support from individual donors, the Henry Luce Foundation (www.hluce.org), the E. Rhodes and Leona B. Carpenter Foundation, and California Humanities, a non-profit partner of the National Endowment for the Humanities (www.CalHum.org).

Eureka Street Productions has 501c3 status through our fiscal sponsor FJC: A Foundation of Philanthropic Funds.

The music for this episode is from the Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco’s archive. It was performed by MCC-SF’s musicians and members with Bob Crocker and Jack Hoggatt-St.John as music directors. Additional music is by Domestic BGM.

Thanks to Dr. Judy Auerbach of the University of California at San Francisco. 

Thanks to Sue Fulton for permission to use “This Little Light of Mine.” 

Thanks to Cris Williamson for permission to use “Song of the Soul.” 

Great thanks, as always, to the members and clergy of the Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco who made this project possible.  

Some links to good groups:

The Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco – the congregation’s current website. 

Metropolitan Community Churches – the denomination of which MCC San Francisco is a part. 

San Francisco AIDS Foundation – a place to seek information about HIV. 

POZ Magazine – a place to learn everything else about HIV (information included).

Save AIDS Research – their recent, epic 24 hours to Save Research conference with all the latest HIV research is available on YouTube through this site.   

LGBTQ Religious Archives Network – the place to get lost in LGBTQ+ religious history. 

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In 1996 everything changed. With the introduction of antiretroviral medications called the “AIDS cocktail,” people started getting better – some dramatically – and surviving AIDS became a real possibility. In the wake of these changes, MCC found itself taking stock of what they lost to AIDS and using what they learned to address larger social issues– from medical marijuana to homelessness. Sometimes these political stances felt heroic and a way to use that collective energy, and other times it made the church very unpopular with the changing Castro neighborhood.

“Freedom is Coming”  is by Anders Nyberg. 

“All Things New” is by Rory Cooney.

“Blessed Assurance” is by Franny Crosby.

“Gloria (Angels We Have Heard on High” is a traditional Christmas hymn. 

“The Potter’s House” is by V. Michael McKay. 

For images and links about this episode visit https://www.heavenpodcast.org/episode-9.

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Production credits: 

When We All Get to Heaven is produced by Eureka Street Productions. It is co-created by Lynne Gerber, Siri Colom, and Ariana Nedelman. Our story editor is Sayre Quevedo. Our sound designer is David Herman. Our managing producer is Krissy Clark. Tim Dillinger is our consulting producer and Betsy Towner Levine is our fact-checker. We had additional story editing help from Sarah Ventre, Arwen Nicks, Allison Behringer, and Krissy Clark. For a complete list of credits, please visit https://www.heavenpodcast.org/credits.

This project received generous support from individual donors, the Henry Luce Foundation (www.hluce.org), the E. Rhodes and Leona B. Carpenter Foundation, and California Humanities, a non-profit partner of the National Endowment for the Humanities (www.CalHum.org).

Eureka Street Productions has 501c3 status through our fiscal sponsor FJC: A Foundation of Philanthropic Funds.

The music for this episode is from the Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco’s archive. It was performed by MCC-SF’s musicians and members with Bob Crocker and Jack Hoggatt-St.John as music directors. Additional music is by Domestic BGM.

Special thanks to Tom Ammiano, Tommi Avicolli-Mecca, Stuart Gaffney, John Lewis, Dr. Jen Reck, Matt Sharp, and Dana Van Gorder for their help with this episode. 

Great thanks, as always, to the members and clergy of the Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco who made this project possible.  

Some links to good groups

Lyric Center for LGBTQQ+ Youth

The Ali Forney Center

The Trevor Project’s 2022 report on LGBTQ youth and homelessness

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In 1995 Rev. Jim Mitulski became HIV positive -- what's known as seroconversion. It was 14 years into the epidemic and people knew what HIV/AIDS was, how you got it, and how you could prevent it. And when Jim got sick, he got very sick. What was it like to become ill so publicly? How would the church and the community respond? And what could Jim possibly preach about on his first Sunday back?

“My Soul Doth Magnify” is from Camille Saint-Saens’ Christmas Oratorio, Op. 12, 1858.

“The 23rd Psalm (Dedicated to My Mother)” is by Bobby McFerrin. 

The biblical story of the death of the prophet Elijah is in Second Kings, chapter 2. 

For images and links about this episode visit https://www.heavenpodcast.org/episode-8.

When We All Get to Heaven is produced by Eureka Street Productions. It is co-created by Lynne Gerber, Siri Colom, and Ariana Nedelman. Our story editor is Sayre Quevedo. Our sound designer is David Herman. Our managing producer is Krissy Clark. Tim Dillinger is our consulting producer and Betsy Towner Levine is our fact-checker. We had additional story editing help from Sarah Ventre, Arwen Nicks, Allison Behringer, and Krissy Clark. For a complete list of credits, please visit https://www.heavenpodcast.org/credits.

This project received generous support from individual donors, the Henry Luce Foundation (www.hluce.org), the E. Rhodes and Leona B. Carpenter Foundation, and California Humanities, a non-profit partner of the National Endowment for the Humanities (www.CalHum.org).

Eureka Street Productions has 501c3 status through our fiscal sponsor FJC: A Foundation of Philanthropic Funds.

The music for this episode is from the Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco’s archive. It was performed by MCC-SF’s musicians and members with Bob Crocker and Jack Hoggatt-St.John as music directors. Additional music is by Domestic BGM. 

Thanks to Ed Wolf and Frank DePelisi for talking us through the issues around HIV status and sero-sorting in the mid-1990s. 

And thanks to Bobby McFerrin and Linda Goldstein for use of “The 23rd Psalm (Dedicated to My Mother).” You can see McFerrin conducting his VOCAbuLarieS singers singing the piece here. 

Great thanks, as always, to the members and clergy of the Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco who made this project possible.  

Some links to good groups:

National Resource Center on HIV and Aging – resources for older adults living with HIV. 

Surviving Voices – an oral history documentary project on how different communities have experienced HIV and AIDS. The most recent focuses on lifelong and long-term HIV survivors. 

Let’s Kick Ass – AIDS Survivors Syndrome – support for long-term HIV survivors. 

Get more Outward with Slate Plus! Join for weekly bonus episodes of Outward and ad-free listening on all your favorite Slate podcasts. Subscribe from the Outward show page on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, or visit slate.com/outwardplus for access wherever you listen.

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Scott and Bruce were the hottest couple in church. Scott, a hula dancer, seemed destined for Bruce, the hunky “lumbersexual,” and the church delighted when they got together. Their brief love affair sparkled before Bruce got sick and died. Their story is one of multiple “dress rehearsals”– when friends, family and lovers went through AIDS with their loved ones wondering who would be next and sometimes knowing it might be you. 

You can see Scott perform in a 1992 InterPlay piece called “God, Sex and Power” here. He’s the one with the bandaids on his knees. 

Singing Positive is a two-part documentary film about the San Francisco Gay Men’s Chorus (SFGMC) and its experience with AIDS that spans 15 years. The first film, which featured Scott, was produced in 1992 and is hard to find online. The second film, produced in 2009, saw the filmmakers return to SFGMC to explore the impact of AIDS on the chorus over time. The 2009 film, with clips of Scott from the first film, is here. And you can watch some amazing SFGMC performances on their YouTube channel here. 

Scott was a member of Hālau Nā Kamalei o Līlīlehua (here’s a recent video) under the direction of Kumu Hula Robert Uluwehi Cazimero. When he moved to San Francisco, Scott supported his hula brother, Patrick Makuakāne's hula school Nā Lei Hulu I Ka Wēkiu. Patrick's recent work includes Māhū, a production by and with trans hula performers. 

On the MCC in Hawai’i, see the Queer Histories of Hawai’i’s story here. 

For images and links about this episode visit https://www.heavenpodcast.org/episode-7 . 

When We All Get to Heaven is produced by Eureka Street Productions. It is co-created by Lynne Gerber, Siri Colom, and Ariana Nedelman. Our story editor is Sayre Quevedo. Our sound designer is David Herman. Our managing producer is Krissy Clark. Tim Dillinger is our consulting producer and Betsy Towner Levine is our fact-checker. We had additional story editing help from Sarah Ventre, Arwen Nicks, Allison Behringer, and Krissy Clark. For a complete list of credits, please visit https://www.heavenpodcast.org/credits.

This project received generous support from individual donors, the Henry Luce Foundation (www.hluce.org), the E. Rhodes and Leona B. Carpenter Foundation, and California Humanities, a non-profit partner of the National Endowment for the Humanities (www.CalHum.org).

Eureka Street Productions has 501c3 status through our fiscal sponsor FJC: A Foundation of Philanthropic Funds.

The music for this episode is from the Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco’s archive. It was performed by MCC-SF’s musicians and members with Bob Crocker and Jack Hoggatt-St.John as music directors. Additional music is by Domestic BGM. 

“Spirit of the Living God” is by Daniel Iverson.

“In the Garden,” also known as “I Come to the Garden Alone” is by C. Austin Miles. It’s the favorite hymn of many a Christain mother, aunt, and grandmother. The soloist is Juliette Galuteria, Scott Galuteria and Brickwood Galuteria’s mother 

“God Prepare Me to Be a Sanctuary” is by Randy Scruggs and John Thompson.  

Special thanks to the friends and experts who helped us think through this episode. 

• Frank DeLuca

• William Salit and Stan Stone

• Dr. Rachel Gross

• Dr. Christopher Cantwell

Great thanks, as always, to the members and clergy of the Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco who made this project possible.  

Some links to good groups:

The Hawai’i Health and Harm Reduction Center – reducing the harm and fighting the stigma of HIV in Hawai’i. 

International EMS and Firefighter Pride Alliance – courage over adversity. 

Get more Outward with Slate Plus! Join for weekly bonus episodes of Outward and ad-free listening on all your favorite Slate podcasts. Subscribe from the Outward show page on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, or visit slate.com/outwardplus for access wherever you listen.

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The Sunday after Magic Johnson announced his HIV-status, Jim Mitulski preached a sermon on being tired of people dying. We’re sharing it as an interlude, a pause, and an immersion into one moment in AIDS’ bleak midwinter. 

For images and links about this episode visit https://www.heavenpodcast.org/interlude.

In the sermon Rev. Mitulski refers to ARC. That means AIDS-Related Complex, a diagnostic category meant to indicate an earlier stage of HIV infection than AIDS. It was common in the period to hear references to both AIDS and ARC. 

“Old Devil Time” is by Pete Seeger. The AIDS verses are by MCC San Francisco congregant Paul Francis. 

You can see Magic Johnson's press release, announcing his HIV status here. 

The biblical passage Rev. Mitulski is preaching on is John 11:1-44.

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When We All Get to Heaven is produced by Eureka Street Productions. It is co-created by Lynne Gerber, Siri Colom, and Ariana Nedelman. Our story editor is Sayre Quevedo. Our sound designer is David Herman. Our managing producer is Krissy Clark. Tim Dillinger is our consulting producer and Betsy Towner Levine is our fact-checker. We had additional story editing help from Sarah Ventre, Arwen Nicks, Allison Behringer, and Krissy Clark. For a complete list of credits, please visit https://www.heavenpodcast.org/credits.

This project received generous support from individual donors, the Henry Luce Foundation (www.hluce.org), the E. Rhodes and Leona B. Carpenter Foundation, and California Humanities, a non-profit partner of the National Endowment for the Humanities (www.CalHum.org).

Eureka Street Productions has 501c3 status through our fiscal sponsor FJC: A Foundation of Philanthropic Funds.

The music for this episode is from the Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco’s archive. It was performed by MCC-SF’s musicians and members with Bob Crocker and Jack Hoggatt-St.John as music directors. Additional music is by Domestic BGM. 

Great thanks, as always, to the members and clergy of the Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco who made this project possible.  

Some links to good groups:

AIDS Healthcare Foundation – provides medical care and support for people living with HIV/AIDS and preventative care for people at risk for contracting it. 

The Magic Johnson Foundation – founded to address HIV/AIDS. Expanded to include education and community engagement. 

San Francisco AIDS Foundation – a place to seek information about HIV. 

POZ Magazine – a place to learn everything else about HIV (information included).
Save AIDS Research – their recent, epic 24 hours to Save Research conference with all the latest HIV research is available on YouTube through this site.

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San Francisco’s gay/lesbian community in the 1980s wasn’t just facing an AIDS crisis, they also struggled against ongoing  anti-gay violence. In 1989, in the midst of a campaign to legally establish anti-gay violence as a hate crime, MCC San Francisco made headlines when their AIDS minister was attacked in her home. The city, the police department, and the LGBTQ community rallied around the church and the minister. And when they finally solved the puzzle of who did it, the answer shocked the church. 

For images and links about this episode visit https://www.heavenpodcast.org/episode-6.

The voices from the service after the first attack include

• Rev. Troy Perry, Universal Fellowship of Metropolitan Community Churches – “If you come for one of us, you come for all of us.” 

• Kevin Calegari, Dignity San Francisco – “Somebody by the name of Jesus…”

• Harry Britt, San Francisco City Supervisor – “It hurts to be reminded of the power of evil.”

• Gayle Orr-Smith, representative of the Mayor’s Office – “I am moved when I hear you say you are an angry people.” 

• Rev. Duane Wilkerson, United Methodist Church – “But in the event that doubt has crept into your mind…” 

• Rev. Troy Perry, Universal Fellowship of Metropolitan Community Churches – “And to the enemies who are attacking us…”

“The Call” is by George Herber with music by Vaughan Williams. The soloist is Bob Crocker.

“Nearer My God to Thee” is by Sarah Flowers Abrams.

Some links to good groups

Community United Against Violence – still working for safe communities for queer people. 

National Alliance on Mental Illness LGBTQI Information Page

The Shanti Project - is a pioneering nonprofit that builds human connections to reduce isolation, enhance health and well-being, and improve quality of life. It innovated enduring models of attentive companionship to people facing the end of life through their work during the height of the AIDS crisis. 

The Trevor Project – the leading suicide prevention and crisis intervention non-profit organization for LGBTQ+ young people. 

Get more Outward with Slate Plus! Join for weekly bonus episodes of Outward and ad-free listening on all your favorite Slate podcasts. Subscribe from the Outward show page on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, or visit slate.com/outwardplus for access wherever you listen.

Production credits: 

When We All Get to Heaven is produced by Eureka Street Productions. It is co-created by Lynne Gerber, Siri Colom, and Ariana Nedelman. Our story editor is Sayre Quevedo. Our sound designer is David Herman. Our managing producer is Krissy Clark. Tim Dillinger is our consulting producer and Betsy Towner Levine is our fact-checker. We had additional story editing help from Sarah Ventre, Arwen Nicks, Allison Behringer, and Krissy Clark. For a complete list of credits, please visit http://heavenpodcast.org/credits.

This project received generous support from individual donors, the Henry Luce Foundation (www.hluce.org), the E. Rhodes and Leona B. Carpenter Foundation, and California Humanities, a non-profit partner of the National Endowment for the Humanities (www.CalHum.org).

Eureka Street Productions has 501c3 status through our fiscal sponsor FJC: A Foundation of Philanthropic Funds.

The music for this episode is from the Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco’s archive. It was performed by MCC-SF’s musicians and members with Bob Crocker and Jack Hoggatt-St.John as music directors. Additional music is by Domestic BGM. 

Special thanks to Kelsy Pacha, Dr. Janis Whitlock, and Dr. Mary Hunt for consulting with us about this episode. 

Great thanks, as always, to the members and clergy of the Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco who made this project possible. 

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

When Rev. Ron Russell Coons got diagnosed with AIDS he thought a lot about what healing meant when death was certain. He pursued it in his strained and broken family relationships and he preached about it from the pulpit. Though he knew, without a doubt, that he would die from AIDS, Ron claimed that he believed in and had experienced healing. What does healing mean when everybody knows it can’t mean survival? Maybe healing is one’s biological family and queer kin showing up and reaching for connection across those fractures.

For images and links about this episode visit https://www.heavenpodcast.org/episode-5.

Get more Outward with Slate Plus! Join for weekly bonus episodes of Outward and ad-free listening on all your favorite Slate podcasts. Subscribe from the Outward show page on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, or visit slate.com/outwardplus for access wherever you listen.

When We All Get to Heaven is produced by Eureka Street Productions. It is co-created by Lynne Gerber, Siri Colom, and Ariana Nedelman. Our story editor is Sayre Quevedo. Our sound designer is David Herman. Our managing producer is Krissy Clark. Tim Dillinger is our consulting producer and Betsy Towner Levine is our fact-checker. We had additional story editing help from Sarah Ventre, Arwen Nicks, Allison Behringer, and Krissy Clark. For a complete list of credits, please visit https://www.heavenpodcast.org/credits.

This project received generous support from individual donors, the Henry Luce Foundation (www.hluce.org), the E. Rhodes and Leona B. Carpenter Foundation, and California Humanities, a non-profit partner of the National Endowment for the Humanities (www.CalHum.org).

Eureka Street Productions has 501c3 status through our fiscal sponsor FJC: A Foundation of Philanthropic Funds.

The music for this episode is from the Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco’s archive. It was performed by MCC-SF’s musicians and members with Bob Crocker and Jack Hoggatt-St.John as music directors. Additional music is by Domestic BGM. 

“When the Roll is Called Up Yonder” is by James Milton Black. 

“Give Me Jesus” is a traditional spiritual arrangement by Charles Ivey. The soloist is Maria Barnet. 

“It is Well with My Soul,” also known as “When Peace, Like a River,” is by Horatio Spafford.

Thanks to 

• Ron’s family for speaking with us on and off the record. We know this was a stretch and we appreciate it.

• Dr. Joseph Marchal, for helping us understand Ron’s “We Have AIDS” sermon and the biblical text it was based on. It’ll be a great special episode one day. 

• Steve Russell for sharing his memories of Ron and his brother, Chuck Russell Coons.

  Great thanks, as always, to the members and clergy of the Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco who made this project possible.

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

As MCC grew as a denomination, they tried to figure out if and how to relate to other churches. Would any befriend a queer church? And if so, would that friendship help other churches shift their perspective on homosexuality? These questions got harder as AIDS numbers grew—it made people more afraid yet friendship more vital. But sometimes friendship emerges in the most unlikely of places. Like when a children’s choir visited an AIDS ward in San Francisco and sang for an MCC member there. That connection started a partnership between their churches that changed them both.

For images and links about this episode visit https://www.heavenpodcast.org/episode-4.

Get more Outward with Slate Plus! Join for weekly bonus episodes of Outward and ad-free listening on all your favorite Slate podcasts. Subscribe from the Outward show page on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, or visit slate.com/outwardplus for access wherever you listen.

Production credits: 

When We All Get to Heaven is produced by Eureka Street Productions. It is co-created by Lynne Gerber, Siri Colom, and Ariana Nedelman. Our story editor is Sayre Quevedo. Our sound designer is David Herman. Our managing producer is Krissy Clark. Tim Dillinger is our consulting producer and Betsy Towner Levine is our fact-checker. We had additional story editing help from Sarah Ventre, Arwen Nicks, Allison Behringer, and Krissy Clark. For a complete list of credits, please visit https://www.heavenpodcast.org/credits.

This project received generous support from individual donors, the Henry Luce Foundation (www.hluce.org), the E. Rhodes and Leona B. Carpenter Foundation, and California Humanities, a non-profit partner of the National Endowment for the Humanities (www.CalHum.org).

Eureka Street Productions has 501c3 status through our fiscal sponsor FJC: A Foundation of Philanthropic Funds.

The music for this episode is from the Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco’s archive. It was performed by MCC-SF’s musicians and members with Bob Crocker and Jack Hoggatt-St.John as music directors. Additional music is by Domestic BGM.

“Who Kept Us” is by Dr. Margaret Douroux.

“The Wicked Shall Cease” is by Jessy Dixon.

“Jesus is Here Right Now” is by Leon Roberts.

“Child of God” and “Walk Together Children” are traditional African American spirituals. 

Special thanks to

• Mary Clover Obrzut, Stephen’s sister, for insights into his life and for so much great audio.

• Dr. Cheryl Townsend Gilkes for telling us about Stephen’s time at Union Baptist and connecting us with folks there. 

• Alfred Williams for helping us get connected to Double Rock.

• Dr. April Parker and Mardy Coates for facilitating the use of “Who Kept Us.” 

• And to the folks at Double Rock Baptist Church, past and present, especially the beloved Minister of Music.  

Great thanks, as always, to the members and clergy of the Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco who made this project possible.  

Some links to good groups

Balm in Gilead – works to integrate public health and faith principles. It was founded by Dr. Pernessa Seale in to help Black churches address HIV/AIDS and support people and families living with AIDS.

Double Rock Baptist Church – is still worshipping and ministering in Bayview/Hunters Point. They were deeply involved in community support during the Covid-19 epidemic. 

Love All People – is the ministry that introduced MCC to Margaret Douroux’s song, Who Kept Us, to MCC. 

National Minority AIDS Council – works for heath equality and racial justice to end the AIDS epidemic.

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