Recorded live at Meow Wolf in Santa Fe, this episode features a wide-ranging conversation between Todd and Andy Baker about learning, safety culture, and leadership influence.

They dig into HOP and related safety approaches, debate top-down versus middle-out change, discuss the importance of language and unlearning, and explore how to turn belief into practical skill and behavior.

The episode offers real-world insights on piloting change, engaging leaders and middle managers, and learning from others who have adapted these ideas in novel ways.