Peaceful Exit

Dr. Jackie Ogden is a behavioral psychologist who spent her career working in leadership positions at world-renowned institutions like the San Diego Zoo and Disney's Animal Kingdom. In this episode, Jackie tells Sarah what animal behavior can teach us about grief and mortality, and why it's critical for conservation efforts to be about people, in addition to animals. Then, Jackie talks candidly about much more personal topics: the humor and daily practice required to care for a spouse with Alzheimer's disease, and what it was like for her to recently receive her own early-stage Alzheimer's diagnosis. Jackie reveals her desire to be intentional during her final chapter, and what she thinks it truly means to make peace with the end of life.

Paisley Rekdal, a former poet laureate of Utah, has spent her career writing about history, memory, and loss. These include her own personal losses, as well as collective losses, like from war and immigration. In this episode, Paisley tells Sarah about caring for her father as he died, the complicated emotions that came from that experience, and what poetry uniquely offers grievers. They also discuss her grandmother's choice to die by euthanasia at over 100 years old— what Paisley calls "the gold standard of death"— and why she believes there's a lightness that can follow loss.

For more information about Paisley's work and her new book "Heritance," visit her website: www.paisleyrekdal.com

Glaciologist Twila Moon studies Earth's ice, the glaciers and ice sheets that have built up over millennia, but that are now disappearing much more rapidly. In this episode, Twila and Sarah talk about the visceral sensory experience of standing next to a living glacier, and what it's like to watch something that once felt permanent, something that has animated her heart and mind for decades, vanish within her lifetime. They also discuss learning to sit with climate grief, and Twila shares why taking action in the face of overwhelming ecological disaster can actually generate hope.

Estate planning attorney Brittany Cook helps people get their legal affairs in order before they die, and in this episode she and Sarah dig into everything you need to know about wills, trusts, powers of attorney, executors, and why it's never a "set it and forget it" exercise. Brittany breaks down what happens when someone dies without a plan, why communicating your wishes matters just as much as the paperwork itself, and how to manage who gets access to your online accounts after you're gone. Brittany also shares tips for actually starting these conversations, and the three most important things you can do — right now — to protect your loved ones.

Psychologist and author Dr. Elaine Kasket is an expert in what's known as the digital afterlife, and in this episode she tells Sarah about the complex intersection of technology, identity, and grief. Elaine covers topics most of us have never even thought about: the rise of grief bots and AI resurrections, as well as the practical challenges of managing our digital footprints after we die. Elaine also explains how technology can shape a legacy, as well as what it truly means to stay human in the digital age.

For more information about Elaine's work and her books, please visit her website.

 Dr. Jessica Zitter and Chaplain Betty Clark have spent over a decade caring for patients together at Highland Hospital in Oakland, California, where Dr. Zitter is a critical and palliative care physician and Betty is the chaplain. Their partnership is at the heart of the documentary, "The Chaplain & The Doctor," and in this episode they tell Sarah what it means to treat the body and the spirit. Betty explains why she doesn't walk into a room because someone is dying, but because they are still living, while Jessica reflects on how Betty has changed the way she doctors. They also talk about generational trauma, decoding empathy, and how science can make room for the soul.

For more information about the film and Jessica and Betty's work together, you can visit The Chaplain & The Doctor

Thanatologist, horticulturalist, and author Cole Imperi studies death, dying, grief, loss and bereavement. She says we don't have a taboo around death in our culture - but around grief. In this episode, she and Sarah dive into Cole's pioneered concept of "shadow loss," and they break down the six distinct categories where grief manifests, which she also outlines in her book "A Guide to Grief," for teens and tweens. Cole provides a beautiful blueprint for keeping your grief moving, explains why words can act as medicine, and describes how embracing the grieving process can ultimately guide you back home.

For more information about Cole's work and her books, please visit her website.

When Nancy Howard Cobb wrote "In Lieu of Flowers: A Conversation for the Living" in the year 2000, she was ahead of her time. Little did she know that the cultural appetite for stories about mortality would only continue to grow, and that her book would be republished more than two decades later. In this interview,  Nancy explores the deaths of her parents, the loss of a close friend, and the shattering discovery of a marriage built on lies. She also tells Sarah why telling our stories of death and grief may be one of the most vital things we can do.

Death doula Darnell Lamont Walker, author of "Never Can Say Goodbye: The Life of a Death Doula and the Art of a Peaceful End," came to this work young. At just 12 years old, he sat with his dying cousin during the AIDS crisis. At 13, he helped classmates grieve the death of a friend. Darnell shares with Sarah how his grandma's fearless, open-hearted approach to death shaped those early experiences and everything that followed. He explains why grief doesn't have just one face: it can look like starting a garden, running a marathon, laughing hysterically, or crying at a red light. Darnell and Sarah also discuss their shared belief that adventure and creativity can be the ultimate antidotes to despair.

For more information on Darnell and his work, please visit his website: https://www.darnellwalker.com/

Anne Lamott is known for her piercing honesty, her humor, and her willingness to go to the hard places. She's the New York Times bestselling author of books like "Bird by Bird" and "Traveling Mercies," and she is, appropriately, so many people's favorite writer. In this conversation with Sarah, Anne explores the terrain that has defined so much of her life and writing: loss, grief, faith, and grace. She shares what she's learned from sitting with dying people, including her father and her best friend, and why she's well attuned to find hope - even in the darkest times.

For more of Anne's delicious writing, check out her substack: Hallelujah Anyway