In this candid, practice-focused conversation, Joe is joined by Norwegian psychologist and researcher Ivar Goksøyr to explore how therapists' own healing journeys can measurably improve client outcomes—and why MDMA-assisted experiences, used thoughtfully, may be a uniquely powerful catalyst for professional development. Ivar shares lessons from Norway's psychedelic research team (PTSD and the world's first MDMA-for-depression trial), his clinic Psykologvirke in Oslo, and his online course, "The Wounded Healer," which uses authentic footage from his FDA-approved MAPS volunteer MDMA sessions to illuminate real clinical processes, countertransference, and the "inner healing intelligence" as a working metaphor rather than dogma.

The discussion ranges from implementation realities (laws, ethics, and conservative regulatory cultures) to the pragmatic: how an MDMA experience helped Ivar resolve chronic anxiety reactions in the therapy chair, reduced burn-out, increased receptivity, and improved attunement—changes he believes many clinicians can cultivate when personal growth is prioritized alongside methods training. He outlines a developing collaboration with the University of Oslo on Empathogen-Assisted Therapies Development—not to "dose for certification," but to support therapists' self-awareness and resilience in legally sanctioned research contexts.

They also compare compounds: why MDMA may be easier to integrate into mainstream psychiatry than classic tryptamines (fewer projective processes, more biographical focus, smoother affect regulation), while acknowledging the immense promise—and higher demands—of psilocybin and other psychedelics. Throughout, they emphasize humility, guardrails, and the need to keep learning as the field scales (with frank reflections on ketamine's mixed rollout and avoiding idealization/devaluation cycles).

Highlights

• Why therapist factors often outweigh modality—and how personal work translates into better outcomes.
• Using real session video (with Ivar as participant) to normalize vulnerability, illuminate process, and train pattern recognition.
• Regulatory and ethical nuances of self-experience in training; building consensus before policy change.
• Inner healing intelligence as a clinical metaphor aligned with Rogers, Rank, and psychodynamic concepts (unconscious therapeutic alliance).
• MDMA vs. classic psychedelics for implementation; sequencing with ketamine in public systems.
• Global classroom: 270+ clinicians from every continent; course structure centered on reflection, discussion, and live analysis.