In this episode, David interviews Sami Awad: Palestinian peace and nonviolent activist and founder of Holy Land Trust in Bethlehem; and Leor Roseman, Ph.D.: Israeli neuroscientist, researcher, and senior lecturer at the University of Exeter.

They talk about Roseman's 2021 paper, "Relational Processes in Ayahuasca Groups of Palestinians and Israelis," which looked at what happened when people with fiercely different opinions moved beyond fear, anger, and othering, and sat together in a safe container and drank ayahuasca with the purpose of healing collective trauma. When the focus of the participants moved toward understanding each other, Roseman and Awad saw a unity that gave them a lot of hope, leading to the creation of their nonprofit, RIPPLES, which is focused on using psychedelics for peacebuilding – first in the Middle East, and hopefully soon, everywhere. As Awad says, "If it can happen here, it can happen almost anywhere."

They discuss:

• The efficacy of psychedelics as a tool for nonviolent activism, building peace, and recognizing – and healing – collective trauma
• The balance between the idealistic and the practical, or 'the irony of harmony' – if you focus too much on the connectivity of psychedelics, do you actually exclude voices?
• The concept of "my liberation depends on your healing and your liberation depends on mine"
• The challenge in doing something with the hope and enthusiasm that comes after a powerful experience: How do you make sure that wave of hope continues rippling through choppy waters?

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