On this week’s Talkhouse Podcast we’ve got a pairing that’s a little bit outside our normal wheelhouse, but that touches on topics that we love to hit: Qveen Herby and Bunny Michael.

Usually it’s easy to classify our guests by the main thing they do: musician, filmmaker, author. But both Qveen Herby and Bunny Michael do more than I can even reasonably tell you about in this intro: Each hosts a podcast, each has earned huge followings on social media, and each makes music. Herby started her career as part of the duo Karmin, as you’ll hear: Instant YouTube fame greeted their fun cover songs, and they ended up on Ellen and Saturday Night Live—and in what turned out to be a not-that-fun major-label deal. But Herby reinvented herself as a very 21st-century content creator, offering life advice on Instagram and via the House of Herby podcast, selling jewelry, and making funny, pointed hip-hop-indebted pop. Check out “Just Found Out” from Qveen Herby’s latest EP, The Muse.

As you’ll hear, Qveen Herby and today’s other guest, Bunny Michael, didn’t know each other personally before this conversation, but their paths have been incredibly similar. Michael found their biggest boost of fame via earnest self-help memes as well as a popular podcast called XO Higher Self. They’re also a visual artist and activist, and they’ve got a book coming out next year via Little Brown called Hello Higher Self. And yes, Bunny Michael is also a musician. Check out the song “Oracle” right here.

Like I said, these two didn’t know each other before this chat, but you can tell they’re going to be friends, as the old song goes. They talk about how to maintain boundaries with your own creativity, they talk about how your biggest song might be the one you’re most embarrassed by, and they talk about—horror—trying to put down your phone for a whole day. I don’t know if I could do it. Enjoy.

Thanks for listening to the Talkhouse Podcast and thanks to Qveen Herby and Bunny Michael for chatting. If you liked what you heard, please follow Talkhouse on your favorite podcasting platform, and check out all the sweet goodness at Talkhouse.com. This episode was produced by Myron Kaplan, and the Talkhouse theme is composed and performed by the Range. See you next time!