We’re at a moment where the structure of loans and professional education is changing. Not just for the acupuncture profession, but across the entire educational landscape. While it seems the storm has suddenly blown in, it’s been brewing for a while.

In this conversation with Ryan Hofer we discuss the reality of Grad Plus loans, the true cost of them in terms of the interest they generate, and why the "math doesn't math" for a lot of people entering the field right now. We explore the various ways loans can be resolved, and the shame and anxiety that graduates experience when they realize they are in over their head financially.

There’s also this uncomfortable question about how we got here—how a business model based on student debt became the default, and what happens when that faucet finally gets turned off.

Change is coming and our profession is going to have to find a way to work with far less money coming for student loans. And we also need to reckon with the unsustainable debt that practitioners of an earlier generation did not need to face.