Rutger Bregman reckons we're kinder than we think we are. 

He's a Dutch journalist and international best-selling author of Humankind: A Hopeful History, a book that lights a fire under the idea that humans are inherently selfish and doomed to self-destruct. 

Rutger and I chat about hope, calling out billionaires for not paying enough tax and what our society could look like if we simply - and wildly - chose to trust each other more.

Listen to Wild with Sarah Wilson on the LiSTNR app, favourite here

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.