This episode has been a long time coming. More than any other topic, our community has asked questions about the Divine Feminine and Heavenly Mother. There is so much to explore, especially in relation to the temple, and I hope this is the first of many conversations on the subject.

Many of us feel the absence of the feminine in our stories, symbols, and ordinances. Years ago, I began my own search for the Divine Feminine, and I’ve found that She is far more present than I once realized.

Katherine has spent the last decade studying and seeking Heavenly Mother. Her book, The Mother Tree, is one of the best works I’ve read on this topic, and I couldn’t recommend it more.

In this episode, Katherine explains that the feminine is often veiled—not missing, but hidden. Discovering her takes faith, patience, and consistent seeking. But she is there for anyone who wants to know her, and as her children, it is our birthright to seek and know our Mother.

We discuss temple symbols that may point to the Divine Feminine, Wisdom as a feminine archetype, the Tree of Life, and the connection between Heavenly Mother and nature. We also touch on how the female deity was removed from the ancient Israelite temple tradition, and how Christ—born of both Father and Mother—can help us come to know her more fully.

I hope this conversation offers insight, comfort, and an invitation to keep seeking.

Kathryn Knight Sonntag is the author of The Mother Tree (Faith Matters Foundation, 2022), winner of The 2022 BIBA Literary Award in Non-Fiction: Religion, The Tree at the Center (BCC Press, 2019), and No Sudden Bright Way (Orison Books, forthcoming). Her poems have appeared in Sugar House Review, Image, Colorado Review, and the anthology Blossom as the Cliffrose (Torrey House Press, 2021), among other places. She works as a landscape architect and serves as the poetry editor for Wayfare.

Get The Mother Tree from Amazon.

Read more of Kathryn’s work at wayfaremagazine.org.

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As a lover of poetry, I was especially excited to bring Darlene Young on for a conversation about two passions close to my heart. One day, I was struck by the realization that poetry and the temple feel deeply similar to me. Both feel like crossing a threshold — moving from the concrete into the abstract, the mundane into the sacred, mortality into eternity. Darlene has an extraordinary gift for capturing these realities in her poetry and drawing readers into the space where the two meet.

In this conversation, we explore the possibility of heaven in the here and now — in ordinary life — as well as how approaching the temple the way we might approach poetry can open us more fully to the gift being offered there. We talk about progression, yearning, and what Eve might teach us about navigating the tension between hungering for more while also learning to trust in our inherent wholeness.

Like poetry, the temple can feel deeply open-ended. In a mind-driven culture that often seeks safety in definitive answers, what might it look like to develop the capacity to sit within that openness, allow it to work on us, and begin learning not only with our minds, but also with our bodies and hearts? I have found profound transformative potential in leaning into and embracing the mystery, something I feel the temple continuously invites me into.

You can meet and learn from Darlene Young, Thomas McConkie, Kathryn Knight Sonntag, James Goldberg, George Handley, Meghan Farner and more at the Wayfare Festival on July 11 in Heber City Utah! You can learn more and RSVP here, and take 20% off the regular ticket price with code SANCTUARY.

Darlene Young is the author of three poetry collections (Count Me In, Here, and Homespun and Angel Feather), two of which have won the Association for Mormon Letters’ awards for poetry. She is a past resident of the New York City arts residency sponsored by the Center for Latter-Day Saint Arts and a recipient of the Smith-Pettit Foundation Award for Outstanding Contribution to Mormon Letters. Darlene teaches writing at Brigham Young University and has served as poetry editor for Dialogue and Segullah journals. Her work has been noted in Best American Essays and nominated for Pushcart Prizes. She lives in South Jordan, Utah. Find more about her at darlene-young.com.

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Something I have wrestled with in my own faith journey is how I can simultaneously feel such a strong witness of restored gospel truths and ordinances while also recognizing immense truth and beauty in other religions. In this conversation, Dave shares his journey of developing a deep love and appreciation for all faith traditions, and how embracing other religions has not threatened his own faith but has actually deepened and informed it. Together, we explore ritual as a means of connecting to the divine, forming our identity, and discovering the common threads of ritual across faith traditions—something Dave attributes to God inspiring people “in their own language and symbols.”

One temple teaching I love is the invitation to participate in God’s work of circumscribing all truth into one great whole. Joseph Smith was a seeker of all truth and implored us to be the same. This conversation felt like an opportunity to reach wider, embracing more truth and, ultimately, more of humanity within the arms of our faith. Dave offers a vision of rooting ourselves deeply in our faith while also reaching far and wide to gather all of God’s children to the table. I am finding that, rather than separating us from the rest of humanity, temple worship invites us into deeper communion with the whole human family and our shared longing to encounter the divine.

David Butler is a speaker, author, and storyteller who helps people see faith and scripture in fresh, hopeful ways. Through teaching, tours, and creative faith projects, he invites others along to discover wonder, grace, and a deeper love for God.

Follow Dave on Instagram

Listen to Dave’s podcast Don’t Miss This

Enroll in Dave’s Holy Envy course

Explore Dave’s tours

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As a feminist and lifelong member of the LDS faith, Deidre brings an important voice to this community. In this episode, she shares her own temple journey, which—like mine—began with challenges but ultimately evolved into something deeply meaningful. She describes the temple as a space that empowers her as a woman and expresses her belief that it holds a vision of who women truly are and who God is inviting them to become.

In the second half of the episode, we explore the garment. Deidre has drawn fascinating meaning from it, some of which we discuss here. I highly recommend reading her article for Wayfare, where she delves more deeply into this topic—it was an impactful read for me. She speaks about the garment as a symbol of the veil and suggests that, in wearing it, we are perpetually standing before the veil, declaring, “Here I am,” and communicating to God our openness, trust, and willingness to submit to His will. Step by step, God has drawn me into this holy surrender, transforming me and setting me free in more ways than I can express.

Deidre Green is Assistant Professor of Latter-day Saint/Mormon Studies at the Graduate Theological Union in Berkeley, California. She is the author of multiple books, chapters, and articles related to feminist theology, Kierkegaard, and Mormon Studies. Deidre co-edited with Eric Huntsman Latter-day Saint Perspectives on Atonement (University of Illinois Press, 2024) and authored Jacob: A Brief Theological Introduction.

Read Deidre’s Wayfare article on Garments here.

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Matt is a strong believer in developing an understanding of the biblical temple to increase our temple literacy, and he has dedicated most of his life’s work to studying this very thing. This episode felt like a continuation of my previous conversation with Josh Matson. Matt helps us explore more deeply the similarities and differences between the modern LDS temple and the ancient Israelite temple.

Something I deeply value is the ability to hold space for differences in cultures and religions while recognizing the validity in all of them. I love that this is something Matt truly stands for in his work. Sometimes, as humans, it can make us uncomfortable to observe differences in our core experiences and beliefs. But I believe in a God who reaches all of Their children and wants us all to sit at the table together.

My biggest takeaway from this episode was the reminder that expanding my knowledge prepares me to receive revelation—which is ultimately the intention behind the entire temple experience. It is a gift and message received by revelation and is best understood through revelation. If Sanctuary offers you anything, I hope it helps prepare you to experience your own sacred, divine encounter.

Matthew J. Grey is a professor of ancient scripture and the coordinator of the ancient Near Eastern studies program at Brigham Young University. He researches the material culture of daily life in Roman Palestine and for over twenty years has been involved in archaeological excavations, research, and publications relating to the world of the New Testament.

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In this conversation, Josh walks us through the pattern of the ancient tabernacle and Solomon’s temple, helping us begin to understand what temple worship and sacrifice looked like for the ancient Israelites. Gaining an understanding of what the temple experience was like anciently has really helped to enrich my relationship with our modern temple. I was struck by both the similarities and the differences in how we relate to the temple today. Josh breaks down the various types of sacrificial rites the Israelites performed and shows how they are more similar to our modern law of sacrifice than we might expect.

These were people who faced the same challenge we face today: how to move beyond outward performance and truly offer our whole heart and soul to the Lord. Josh teaches that, in the end, the only thing we can really offer God is our will. God invites us into the experience of sacrifice and repentance—a journey that both transforms and liberates, a journey back to Eden. And all that is needed to begin is our desire

Joshua M. Matson is an assistant professor in the Department of Ancient Scripture at Brigham Young University, with an appointment to the Jerusalem Center for Near Eastern Studies. His published work has focused on the Dead Sea Scrolls, the Hebrew Bible (particularly the Old Testament Minor Prophets), ancient and modern manuscript studies, and the Jewish context of the Greek New Testament. He is the editor for the book of Haggai for the Society of Biblical Literature Hebrew Bible Critical Edition and is a member of the editorial board for the BYU New Testament Commentary Series. He is a former researcher for the Scripta Qumranica Electronica project and an Orion Center for Dead Sea Scrolls Research Fellow at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem. A former Religious Educator with Seminaries and Institutes of Religion, Josh and his wife Erin are the parents of four children and reside in Santaquin, Utah.

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As we began preparing to create the Sanctuary podcast, one of our goals was to offer a resource for those preparing to attend the temple for the first time. We wanted to have a straightforward conversation about what you can expect in the endowment ceremony and provide some context to help you begin understanding the purpose behind these sacred rituals.

In this episode, Jasmin and I zoom out and take a bird’s-eye view of the “covenant path.” She helps us begin to see the greater message and pattern that is unfolding, and how the different ordinances connect to one another. I was inspired to have this conversation with Jasmin after hearing a comment she once made: “The endowment covenants are deeper iterations of baptismal covenants.”

If you—or someone you love—is preparing to receive their endowment for the first time, this episode is for you. I remember wishing that someone had walked me through what happens in the endowment ceremony, like Jasmin does in this episode, before I went through the temple for the first time. Sometimes, simply knowing what to expect can make something as big and magnificent as the temple experience feel more approachable. At the same time, as Jasmin mentions in this episode, there is also something to be said for leaning into the mystery and surrendering to the experience.

Come learn about God’s invitation to become kings and queens, priests and priestesses—and how taking on Christ by emulating Him is the process through which we move toward this eternal destiny.

Jasmin Rappleye is a social media content creator, where she focuses on addressing challenging Latter-day Saint beliefs, history, and news. She has a degree from Brigham Young University in Ancient Near Eastern Studies and has a passion for sharing her faith online. She was the former Director of Communications at Scripture Central and is now on the Executive Committee of the Ancient America Foundation and Faith Creators Alliance.

Follow Jasmin on Instagram here.

Follow Jasmin on Youtube here.

Listen to Jasmin’s podcast here.

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This conversation with Matt was one of my favorites. I am endlessly fascinated by ritual. Why have humans, since seemingly the beginning of time, performed rituals? I want to understand the role ritual plays in my life, in my community, and in the world. I have wrestled with it. I have hated it. I have been transformed by it. I have come to deeply love it—and will likely cycle through all of those feelings many times throughout my life.

I’m convinced of ritual. I really am. Even more so after this conversation with Matt. In this episode, he walks us through the history of Christian ritual, how our relationship with ritual was profoundly transformed during the Reformation, and what Joseph Smith envisioned for the Saints when establishing something radically different in the 1830s.

We explore why people believe that Jesus “did away with the law of Moses,” where that phrase came from, and why so many Christians believe we have “outgrown” ritual. Matt invites us into a new way of understanding the purpose of our rituals, and I left the conversation feeling truly inspired to more fully embrace what we are doing in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Matthew Bowman was appointed the Howard W. Hunter Chair of Mormon Studies in 2019, with a joint appointment in History and Religion. He is a specialist in American religious history, with particular interests in Mormonism, new religious movements, UFOs, and the development of the concept of “religion” in the United States. Most recently, he is the author of Joseph Fielding Smith: A Mormon Theologian and The Abduction of Betty and Barney Hill: UFO Encounters, Civil Rights, and the New Age in America.

Finding Matthew’s books here.

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I was so grateful to have the pleasure to speak with Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife for this episode.. This conversation is another exploration of covenants, but from the framework of the stages of development. This episode begins with Jennifer introducing the three stages of development she describes in her work, and from there she helps us get a feel for how we might relate to God’s laws based on the current stage of development we are operating in. I love that Jennifer emphasizes that value of each stage, whilst also holding a vision for what is possible, both for the individual and the community. We planned to work through all of the covenants, but this ended up being a conversation largely on obedience and what it might look like to have an evolving relationship with it.

I myself have witnessed an evolution of how I relate to my faith and discipleship over the years, and this information has really helped me to better understand the developmental journey that I’m on, and to look forward to what it is I’m moving into. I feel it is so valuable to learn that there are new ways we might experience our faith and relationship with God.

This felt like a perfect moment to share this conversation as we are exploring obedience in Come, Follow Me this week. I hope you love it as much as I did.

Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife is an LDS relationship and sexuality coach with a Ph.D. in Counseling Psychology. She is the author of That We Might Have Joy: Desire, Divinity, and Intimate Love and the creator of six online courses that help individuals and couples create happier lives and stronger intimate relationships. She also hosts Room for Two, a popular sex and intimacy podcast, and is a regular guest on LDS-themed podcasts discussing relationships, faith, and sexuality.

Find Jennifer’s book here.

Find Jennifer’s courses and podcasts here.

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Gosh, I really can’t express how much I loved this conversation with George. It felt like a celebration of life—and an invitation to live and love it more fully. This conversation explores the five covenants we make in the temple, with particular emphasis on the first and the last: obedience and consecration. George shares his personal journey of coming to know the true God and of developing his own desire to offer his obedience to Him. We explore what true freedom is, the gift of our own weaknesses, and how to answer the call to a life of generosity and service. And that, perhaps, what becomes unveiled as we truly align ourselves with these divine laws is our ability to see just how precious and beautiful life really is.

George Handley has taught at BYU in the fields of humanities and environmental studies for the past 28 years. He and his wife, Amy are the parents of four children and grandparents of four little ones. He is an incredible writer. His books include Hope of Nature, If Truth Were a Child, American Fork, and Home Waters.

*Just a heads up, towards the beginning of this episode, George mentions his brother’s death by suicide and speaks to how that profoundly impacted his life and spiritual journey. Please be aware if this is something you are sensitive to.

Follow George on Substack here.

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