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As When We All Get to Heaven wraps up, Christina sits down with series host Lynne Gerber and producer Siri Colum. They discuss how the church has changed, the value of fleeting queer spaces, and what a decade or more spent working on this story has meant to—and taught—them.

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Produced by Palace Shaw and Merritt Jacob.

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On today’s episode, host Kate Lindsay is joined by culture writer Angelina Mazza to discuss the online reaction to the new HBO series, Heated Rivalry. Before the Canadian show premiered, let alone was picked up in the U.S., a dedicated online fandom committed to helping it succeed. Why did this show become such a sensation, and what happens to a niche fandom when their subject suddenly goes mainstream?

This podcast is produced by Vic Whitley-Berry, Daisy Rosario, and Kate Lindsay, with help from AC Valdez.

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In the final episode of When We All Get to Heaven, we catch up on what’s happened in the many years between the emergence of effective treatment for AIDS in the late ‘90s and the fall of 2025, when we recorded this episode. We linger on a moment back in June 1999, when Jim was still pastor and called on the church to remember that AIDS wasn’t over. Because—advances notwithstanding—it still isn’t over.   

For more on Gilbert Baker and the history of the rainbow flag see the  Gilbert Baker Foundation.

For more on Prep see San Francisco AIDS Foundation, What is PrEP? 

“The Path that Ends AIDS: 2023 UNAIDS Global Update” outlines a possible end to the AIDS epidemic. 

The story of Jacob’s Ladder is in the book of Genesis chapter 28, verses 10-19.

The text for “This is the Day that God Has Made” is biblical with music by Leon C. Roberts.

“We are Climbing Jacob’s Ladder” is a traditional hymn.

“This Little Light of Mine” – text traditional, music by Penelope Gneisen

“Song of the Soul” is by Cris Williamson and was sung by her at MCC San Francisco on April 24, 2000. 

For images and links about this episode visit https://www.heavenpodcast.org/episode-10.

When We All Get to Heaven is produced by Eureka Street Productions. It is co-created by Lynne Gerber, Siri Colom, and Ariana Nedelman. Our story editor is Sayre Quevedo. Our sound designer is David Herman. Our managing producer is Krissy Clark. Tim Dillinger is our consulting producer and Betsy Towner Levine is our fact-checker. We had additional story editing help from Sarah Ventre, Arwen Nicks, Allison Behringer, and Krissy Clark. For a complete list of credits, please visit https://www.heavenpodcast.org/credits.

This project received generous support from individual donors, the Henry Luce Foundation (www.hluce.org), the E. Rhodes and Leona B. Carpenter Foundation, and California Humanities, a non-profit partner of the National Endowment for the Humanities (www.CalHum.org).

Eureka Street Productions has 501c3 status through our fiscal sponsor FJC: A Foundation of Philanthropic Funds.

The music for this episode is from the Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco’s archive. It was performed by MCC-SF’s musicians and members with Bob Crocker and Jack Hoggatt-St.John as music directors. Additional music is by Domestic BGM.

Thanks to Dr. Judy Auerbach of the University of California at San Francisco. 

Thanks to Sue Fulton for permission to use “This Little Light of Mine.” 

Thanks to Cris Williamson for permission to use “Song of the Soul.” 

Great thanks, as always, to the members and clergy of the Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco who made this project possible.  

Some links to good groups:

The Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco – the congregation’s current website. 

Metropolitan Community Churches – the denomination of which MCC San Francisco is a part. 

San Francisco AIDS Foundation – a place to seek information about HIV. 

POZ Magazine – a place to learn everything else about HIV (information included).

Save AIDS Research – their recent, epic 24 hours to Save Research conference with all the latest HIV research is available on YouTube through this site.   

LGBTQ Religious Archives Network – the place to get lost in LGBTQ+ religious history. 

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On today’s episode, host Kate Lindsay is joined by culture writer Mikala Jamison to talk about the rise in online concern about celebrities’ bodies. Mikala writes the newsletter Body Type, and her forthcoming book The Forever Project details her recovery from an eating disorder. Following the premiere of movies like Wicked: For Good, fan concern and speculation about celebrity bodies has culminated in a larger discussion about the return of “this is in.” But did “thin” really ever go away? And what is the right way, if any, to talk about it?

This podcast is produced by Vic Whitley-Berry, Daisy Rosario, and Kate Lindsay.

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In 1996 everything changed. With the introduction of antiretroviral medications called the “AIDS cocktail,” people started getting better – some dramatically – and surviving AIDS became a real possibility. In the wake of these changes, MCC found itself taking stock of what they lost to AIDS and using what they learned to address larger social issues– from medical marijuana to homelessness. Sometimes these political stances felt heroic and a way to use that collective energy, and other times it made the church very unpopular with the changing Castro neighborhood.

“Freedom is Coming”  is by Anders Nyberg. 

“All Things New” is by Rory Cooney.

“Blessed Assurance” is by Franny Crosby.

“Gloria (Angels We Have Heard on High” is a traditional Christmas hymn. 

“The Potter’s House” is by V. Michael McKay. 

For images and links about this episode visit https://www.heavenpodcast.org/episode-9.

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Production credits: 

When We All Get to Heaven is produced by Eureka Street Productions. It is co-created by Lynne Gerber, Siri Colom, and Ariana Nedelman. Our story editor is Sayre Quevedo. Our sound designer is David Herman. Our managing producer is Krissy Clark. Tim Dillinger is our consulting producer and Betsy Towner Levine is our fact-checker. We had additional story editing help from Sarah Ventre, Arwen Nicks, Allison Behringer, and Krissy Clark. For a complete list of credits, please visit https://www.heavenpodcast.org/credits.

This project received generous support from individual donors, the Henry Luce Foundation (www.hluce.org), the E. Rhodes and Leona B. Carpenter Foundation, and California Humanities, a non-profit partner of the National Endowment for the Humanities (www.CalHum.org).

Eureka Street Productions has 501c3 status through our fiscal sponsor FJC: A Foundation of Philanthropic Funds.

The music for this episode is from the Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco’s archive. It was performed by MCC-SF’s musicians and members with Bob Crocker and Jack Hoggatt-St.John as music directors. Additional music is by Domestic BGM.

Special thanks to Tom Ammiano, Tommi Avicolli-Mecca, Stuart Gaffney, John Lewis, Dr. Jen Reck, Matt Sharp, and Dana Van Gorder for their help with this episode. 

Great thanks, as always, to the members and clergy of the Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco who made this project possible.  

Some links to good groups

Lyric Center for LGBTQQ+ Youth

The Ali Forney Center

The Trevor Project’s 2022 report on LGBTQ youth and homelessness

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On today’s episode host Kate Lindsay is joined by senior supervising producer Daisy Rosario to unpack the 25-part TikTok saga titled the “Danish Deception.” After a former Bachelor contestant came forward with a story about her scamming ex, TikTok turned on her instead. Why didn’t Onyeka get the Reesa Teesa treatment? And who is the real villain of this story?

This podcast is produced by Vic Whitley-Berry, Daisy Rosario, and Kate Lindsay.

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In 1995 Rev. Jim Mitulski became HIV positive -- what's known as seroconversion. It was 14 years into the epidemic and people knew what HIV/AIDS was, how you got it, and how you could prevent it. And when Jim got sick, he got very sick. What was it like to become ill so publicly? How would the church and the community respond? And what could Jim possibly preach about on his first Sunday back?

“My Soul Doth Magnify” is from Camille Saint-Saens’ Christmas Oratorio, Op. 12, 1858.

“The 23rd Psalm (Dedicated to My Mother)” is by Bobby McFerrin. 

The biblical story of the death of the prophet Elijah is in Second Kings, chapter 2. 

For images and links about this episode visit https://www.heavenpodcast.org/episode-8.

When We All Get to Heaven is produced by Eureka Street Productions. It is co-created by Lynne Gerber, Siri Colom, and Ariana Nedelman. Our story editor is Sayre Quevedo. Our sound designer is David Herman. Our managing producer is Krissy Clark. Tim Dillinger is our consulting producer and Betsy Towner Levine is our fact-checker. We had additional story editing help from Sarah Ventre, Arwen Nicks, Allison Behringer, and Krissy Clark. For a complete list of credits, please visit https://www.heavenpodcast.org/credits.

This project received generous support from individual donors, the Henry Luce Foundation (www.hluce.org), the E. Rhodes and Leona B. Carpenter Foundation, and California Humanities, a non-profit partner of the National Endowment for the Humanities (www.CalHum.org).

Eureka Street Productions has 501c3 status through our fiscal sponsor FJC: A Foundation of Philanthropic Funds.

The music for this episode is from the Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco’s archive. It was performed by MCC-SF’s musicians and members with Bob Crocker and Jack Hoggatt-St.John as music directors. Additional music is by Domestic BGM. 

Thanks to Ed Wolf and Frank DePelisi for talking us through the issues around HIV status and sero-sorting in the mid-1990s. 

And thanks to Bobby McFerrin and Linda Goldstein for use of “The 23rd Psalm (Dedicated to My Mother).” You can see McFerrin conducting his VOCAbuLarieS singers singing the piece here. 

Great thanks, as always, to the members and clergy of the Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco who made this project possible.  

Some links to good groups:

National Resource Center on HIV and Aging – resources for older adults living with HIV. 

Surviving Voices – an oral history documentary project on how different communities have experienced HIV and AIDS. The most recent focuses on lifelong and long-term HIV survivors. 

Let’s Kick Ass – AIDS Survivors Syndrome – support for long-term HIV survivors. 

Get more Outward with Slate Plus! Join for weekly bonus episodes of Outward and ad-free listening on all your favorite Slate podcasts. Subscribe from the Outward show page on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, or visit slate.com/outwardplus for access wherever you listen.

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When the Metropolitan Community Church was founded in the late sixties, it was one of the first gay positive churches in America. When AIDS hit, it became a refuge for people who were sick and those who were mourning them. 

In this episode, Anna talks to researcher Lynne Gerber, about finding boxes of cassettes under the church floor in an MCC church in San Francisco, and how those recordings of sermons and songs became a podcast about finding community and comfort during a crisis. 

Lynne Gerber is the host of the 10-episode series When We All Get to Heaven.

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And if you’re new to the show, welcome. We’re so glad you’re here. Find us and follow us on Instagram and you can find Anna’s newsletter at annasale.substack.com. Our new email address, where you can reach us with voice memos, pep talks, questions, critiques, is [email protected].

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Between the drastic budget cuts and provisions in the Big Beautiful Bill, the Trump administration has found a way to drain Planned Parenthood and other reproductive health centers and cut off access to abortion services—as well as any other health care those clinics provided. 

Guests:  Shefali Luthra, reproductive health reporter at The 19th, author of Undue Burden: Life and Death Decisions in Post-Roe America.

George Hill, President and CEO of Maine Family Planning.

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Podcast production by Elena Schwartz, Paige Osburn, Anna Phillips, Madeline Ducharme, and Rob Gunther.

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On today’s episode host Kate Lindsay is joined by porn historian Noelle Perdue, author of the Porn World newsletter. OpenAI announced that they’d allow adult users to have erotic conversations with ChatGPT, just one more way AI and porn are becoming intertwined. As sex becomes more online, not only does it become more solitary, but also more surveilled. Both of these things are intended to divide us, but Noelle is confident that AI’s attempted sex-takeover will fail. 

This podcast is produced by Vic Whitley-Berry, Daisy Rosario, and Kate Lindsay.

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