Smart Agency Masterclass with Jason Swenk: Podcast for Digital Marketing Agencies

Building Your Agency Brand Is Easier Than You Think

Juju Hook was a corporate brand strategist for over 30 years, both on the client-side, as well as agency-side. She built a successful boutique agency from scratch in 2000. Her agency developed a reputation for smart, creative work with solid results working with big brands in the banking and auto industries. Today Juju shares lessons on the dangers of letting clients negotiate prices and how you can stop it. She also shares how to be more strategic and get paid for strategy rather than allowing clients to treat your agency like a commodity, and why branding your agency based on your values will help land the best clients.

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3 Golden Nuggets

1. Be invaluable to clients and stop being an order-taker. When you understand the client's financials and goals you move from offering project management to being paid for strategy.
2. Sharing your personal brand helps you align with the right clients. The best branding is built based on values. What do you stand for? What do you believe in? What do you lend your voice for? You already have a brand. It's not a matter of creating it; it's a matter of sharing what already exists.
3. Stop letting clients negotiate prices. You're worth what you're worth based on experience and the value you provide. The only prospects trying to negotiate agency prices are the ones who are not the right fit anyway.

Sponsors and Resources

Verblio: Today's episode of the Smart Agency Masterclass is sponsored by Verblio. Check out Verblio.com/smartagency and get 50% off your first month of content creation. Our team loves using Verblio because of the ease in their process and their large pool of crowd-sourced writers.

Jason: [00:00:00] On this episode, we talk about how you get more strategic rather than being an order taker? And how can you build your brand around what you stand for? A lot of us struggle with, how do we start, even though we actually do this for clients, but it's a really interesting conversation. And I think you'll really love it.

Hey Juju, welcome to the show.

Juju: [00:00:28] Thank you. I'm happy to be here.

Jason: [00:00:29] I'm excited to have you on. So tell us who you are and what do you do?

Juju: [00:00:33] So I am Juju Hook. I've been a brand strategist for 30 some years. I started out on the corporate side and financial industry and then opened my own agency in 2000. And in 2015, I closed my agency and made a move toward helping women in midlife build theirs.

Jason: [00:00:52] Awesome. And so how did you get started in 2000? Like I, I started our agency in '99, so it was kind of like the wild wild west.

Juju: [00:01:01] So I worked in the financial industry for some years. And then I became a marketing director for Jacuzzi and ran their brands worldwide, 63 countries.

And that was a wild ride. I started in banking and automotive. So yeah. And was raised with car dealers, but hot tub dealers was a whole other deal. That was just a completely different perspective on branding. And then I got pregnant and I had an international job. I was flying all over. It was really, it was just the kind of thing where I knew I was going to either need to take time off work or make a switch on what I was doing.

And so I decided to become a free agent and ended up working for Jacuzzi as a consultant and launched an agency. When my son was an infant.

Jason: [00:01:50] Oh, that's cool. So Jacuzzi was your first client?

Juju: [00:01:53] Jacuzzi was my last job and my first client. Yeah.

Jason: [00:01:56] Oh yeah, I've done that a lot. Like they don't want to lose you. They're like, well, just you're a consultant for us.

Juju: [00:02:03] And strategy is a funny thing, right? Because if you're the one that's been writing the plan, oftentimes that's what they'll ask you to come back for. Right. It's a plan and somebody else can implement it. And I've always been keen on that. Anyway, I've always been more interested in the 30,000-foot view than, than the minutia.

So, which I think helps an agency owner.

Jason: [00:02:21] Yeah. And that really separates a lot of people. You know, my background was kind of the complete opposite. Like we started the agency basically from doing websites and it was very hard and I find it very hard for people once they're the doers and they're getting paid to do something it's hard to go to the strategy.

They're just like all project-based, even if they do recurring, they're still basically just trading time for money, but they're not really getting that intellectual property. So, for those people listening. How do you think they can be more strategic rather than kind of the order takers?

Juju: [00:02:57] First of all. I think that kind of thinking, to be honest is something that you're, you have a proclivity for. So I think interestingly enough, the first time I took the strengths finders, strategy was my number one strength. And it said, this is something you're born with. Right. So I think, I think we all have a proclivity towards certain ways of thinking.

So if you can take the time to understand your client's financial statements and the financial goals and struggles that your clients have, it'll put you in a more strategic role. It's not about managing the project. It's about how does the project contribute to whatever their overall goals are. And I don't know that that is a comfortable position for everybody who works, especially on the creative side of the agency world.

But it is the difference between, you know, rising up through the ranks and staying where you're at in project management.

Jason: [00:03:47] Yeah. I was thinking about it. It's about asking the right questions in order to figure out the end outcome. That's kind of how I got out of that, that mindset of going damn. How do I get Lotus cars to come to us and be like, this is the problem I have other than go design me this micro-site or this website or this.

Juju: [00:04:09] Yeah, I think, you know, tactics are, we pulled together tactics to employ a strategy. And if you don't understand what the strategy is, right, and the strategy is not really driven by goals that you understand, then you're always going to be separated from where the action really is. And I think our value in terms of being able to implement the strategies that our clients want is directly related to how long we get to serve them.

Jason: [00:04:33] Awesome. Take us through kind of the 15 year journey in the agency. And then, you know, tell us about, you know, at the end kind of, why did you close up?

Juju: [00:04:44] So I started with a virtual sort of organization before things were really virtual. And I had a ton of agency exposure, had hired a lot of agencies.

And so I knew a lot of super-sharp creative people. And initially, I teamed up with folks I had worked with before and started to produce for. The two industries that I knew best, which were banking and automotive, which is a pretty dry, it's a pretty dry slate, but it worked for me.

Jason: [00:05:11] We tried to break into banking. So I don't know how you did it.

Juju: [00:05:14] It's rough. And I'll tell you, it's so interesting because the disclosure side of that in terms of having to, you know, disclose and validate and be transparent about everything you do is as difficult as. The strategy side, right? Like the artists, the designers used to go crazy that you'd have, you know, these amazing pieces.

Right. And half of it would be disclosure at the time. I was very heavy in direct mail and in merchandising. So we spent a lot of time on things that folks don't do much anymore, but, and I guess 15 years, you know, it doesn't seem like that long ago, but it was, and, and I worked my way up to the point where I employed a staff.

Pulled people in. I had a professional photographer on board. I had a full-time designer. We still subbed out a number of different things. I had a media buyer who was working full time and then 2008, 2009, the recession hit. We had a lot of clients in-home development at that point as well in banking, automotive, and home development.

And so it was a real quick slide over a period of time from about 2008, until about 2010. I treated all of the folks who were working for the agency and went to a full virtual model and like I said, stayed with it until about 2015. At that point, my biggest client was Auto Nation.. We were running their, they had a concierge program that went hand-in-hand with the financial industry. And so they were working with insurance companies and credit unions and all different kinds of, of companies to provide this sort of white label concierge product that we just syndicated again and again and again and again the branding for. And they took that model into their showrooms.

And so we could see about six months before it was going to happen. Okay, we're going to, we're going to lose this book of business because they're going to take this model under their showrooms. And, um, at that point I just knew I had been in the game long enough and I was, I didn't want to do it anymore.

I didn't want to go into any more boardrooms and, and fight for any more business that I think the agency businesses, it takes a toll on you. And so I decided to shift my, my work toward women in mid-life, which I was. I was struggling with a lot of the questions that midlife women have around getting older and, and your value and your worth and your level of contribution.

And so I decided to sort of shut it down as projects closed and, and help the team move on. And that's what I did. And now I have, um, an immersion program where I help 15 women a year build their own personal brands and, and get out in front of what often our agency type businesses.

Jason: [00:07:59] Very cool. And so, let's talk a little bit about kind of building a brand.

One of the things I tell agency owners is one of the key roles out of the five roles that when you transition to being the CEO, rather than the owner of doing everything is being the face of the organization. And you really have to build a brand around you rather than being a faceless company. And it's kind of funny too, right?

Like if you think about it, like these agencies do this for other people, but they have a hard time doing it for themselves. So what can they actually do in order to build their brand or what are some things?

Juju: [00:08:35] So, first of all, I think we have all have a hard time doing it for ourselves because it's, it requires a fair amount of chutzpah and it feels in your face.

It's unnatural for a lot of people to do this. I think there are a couple of ways that we can emerge. Number one is we have to really get in touch with our essence. And a lot of times I meet people who will say, Oh, I don't really have anything to brand. I don't have a differentiator. There's nothing different about me.

But everybody is literally imbued with an essence, right? With whatever's your sort of concentrated flavor, concentrated scent. And if you can get down to that, it's all about attraction, right? Attraction as a singular thing, I'm attracted to a person, a person's attracted back to me, same thing with an organization, but an organization can't really make a decision about you and about your agency unless they can see you completely.

Otherwise, they're making a decision on some kind of watered-down version of you, right. Or some piece of you they can't see. And so I really, really encourage people to go out and get in touch with what is it that you're about, right? What's that combination of strength and skill and personality and, you know, tendencies and all those things that make you who you are.

And I think when you then attach that to your values, which is becoming more and more common in terms of branding and, and really being a values-based brand, people really have a chance to connect. And that that connection happens in a very real way.

That builds long-term relationships.

Jason: [00:10:01] Yeah. You know, I totally agree with that. When I first started doing this business or really even going back to the agency business, I really didn't put my personal brand out there. Not at all. It wasn't a thing, right? Like until Gary Vaynerchuk came along and I was like hustle, hustle, hustle, which I'm like work hard and show up, you don't have to work all the time.

And then after I sold the agency, I really was like, okay, let me start doing videos like Gary. And it just wasn't clicking. And it was only up to maybe a couple of years ago, I started just putting out a little bits and pieces about my journey or what I love doing like mountain biking, or we started, you know, we built our dream home in Colorado and I started documenting that a little bit.

Not like the checkout, our Ferrari's or yeah. And so, but we started attracting people that loved the outdoors. They love the adventure and all of that. And it's just like, when we've been growing the mastermind, it's like, it's all these amazing people. And then I think back at what we started putting out, I was like, that's why, yeah.

Juju: [00:11:07] That's what you attracted. Yes. And you know, it's interesting because early on when I was building brand strategies for organizations, everybody talked about mission and vision, right. It was very common to do these mission and vision and values. Sort of, you know, seminars or weekend sessions for these big corporations, but there was never any question about whether the agency that was leading them or, I shared those values.

Right. That just wasn't the kind of thing that anybody talked about. And then as the internet made things more and more transparent, and everybody came to want to know who is it that I'm doing business with things really shifted. And you can see that now from big agency to small agency, I'm watching it happen in the arena of social justice right now.

You can see agencies really clamoring to get a handle on how do we deal with this? How do we guide our clients through this? Right? And on all different sides of the spectrum in terms of what you believe. But that connection is more important than ever. And, you know, we marry people who believe what we believe.

We hang out with them, we date them. We, we vacation with them. Right. We follow them, we've read them and it's just become, you know, to, to some extent, I suppose it creates an echo chamber. Right. But on the other side, it creates really strong relationships that allow your clients to talk out loud about the things they want to talk out loud about knowing that you're invested in the outcome.

I would never be invested in the outcome of my client's businesses early on. Right. That wasn't part of it. Now I show up and I'm in it with the client. And so it's a very different world. I think agency-wise than it used to be.

Jason: [00:12:43] Well, it's, it's hard, like looking back at some of the clients that we worked with if I was doing a campaign for women's purses, I couldn't get behind it. Cause, cause I don't have it. But if we were doing a campaign for Lotus cars, you know, I'm like, yeah, I totally, I totally get it. So it makes a huge difference. You've got to, you know, I was watching a video and probably everybody has. I think it's from Simon Sinek on like, start with why. He talks about like, you, never hire, or you work with people that are your identical twin, but you, you surround yourself with people that believe in similar things.

And it allows you to really build that brand. Because when I got into this business, you know, helping agencies. I saw everybody just doing blog posts and it had no personality. And I was like, I'm gonna do video. I'm gonna do a podcast just so people can hear the tone or the joking around or whatever, the, whatever it is.

And then, you know, when they meet you, they're like, I know you. Which is kind of freaky.

Juju: [00:13:44] Yeah. And what you stand for. I think standing for something, you know, the world has shifted in, in so many ways in America, right. And, and business and life are so intertwined now and all of the money and the influence, it's things have just taken on a different shape.

And I think people are much more inclined now to speak out loud about what they stand for. And I also think at a certain point in life contribution takes on a different meaning. And I see this happen to a lot of people as they get older. And it definitely happened to me as I started to push 50. The kind of contribution that I wanted to have in the world was different.

And it wasn't enough for me to just help corporations stuff, dollar bills into their pocket. Right. And support my lifestyle. I wanted to feel at the end of the day that I had made a difference in someone's life. And that caused me to step forward and say, okay, these are the things I believe in. These are the topics I'm willing to give voice to.

Right. This is what I stand for now. How do I find clients who stand for the same thing so I can help move them forward? And I think not to say that that doesn't happen for young people, I think it does, but I think there's a point in our lives where it, it happens for everybody. You start to really rethink things.

And that definitely happened for me in midlife.

Jason: [00:15:01] Oh yeah. I mean, you know, when you're in your twenties, all you're thinking about is what you don't have.

Juju: [00:15:07] Yeah. And how are you going to survive? How are you going to make it? And what's your trajectory going to look like? And, you know, we all start out with this idea of, this is what my life's going to look like.

I'm going to go to school here. I'm going to do this. I'm going to create this. I'm going to marry this person. I'm going to build a family. We don't have a lot of discussion around what happens after I do all that. Right. What happens when I'm 50, I've checked off all those boxes. Now, do I start again? Do I, how do I pivot?

And I think those of us that are in branding and advertising and messaging and marketing, there's a way to sort of pivot that mastery to something new and midlife. That allows you to stay in the game and contribute on a different level. And a lot of that is very values-based stuff

Jason: [00:15:51] Yeah, I realized after I sold the agency, I was like, I was craving that significance again. And I was like, well, how can I contribute rather than, you know, it felt like before then I was just a taker.

Juju: [00:16:06] Yeah. And well, and I think that's part of the game, right? I mean, that's the way it's all set up is you, you gotta sort of, you gotta make your way, you gotta figure it out.

And I think when we're young, we're not as, yeah geared toward, how can I be useful? As we are toward -- and, you know, maybe it's not fair to say it's old and young. Maybe that's not really the way it breaks out, but I know when I was younger, I was much more interested in what it would take for me to get where I needed to go than I was in, how do I be of service? Right?

And I think that's one of the things that happens the longer you've been in the game. You realize that it's really, it's really the service side and the purpose side that keeps you in it. Right. That's what gets you to wake up every day and go, okay, I'm going to show up and I'm going to do this, the money side and the significant side.

It lasts so long, but it feels a little hollow after a while. And I think that's, I noticed that search trajectory for a lot of folks.

Jason: [00:17:02] What are some things. You know, let's say there's, a lot of people listening right now that are in the middle of their career, they're just kind of getting by. What are some of the things that they can do and building the brand and getting to a place where, you know, it means a lot more to them?

Because, you know, I talk to so many people all day long. They're just like I did this agency. I'm ready to get out because there's no real meaning behind it.

Juju: [00:17:27] Yeah. So I would start with manifesto work. I do manifest it work with tons of people and I'm not talking about just around, you know, making something pretty that you say out loud, but really understanding what are the things that you want to feel on a daily basis.

Right? How do you want to feel, how do you imagine the perfect life being, you know, for you and for other people? What do you believe in? What are you willing to stand for? I very often ask my women clients, what are the issues that you're willing to give your voice to? And what are the issues that you would never give your voice to?

Or what are the things that you stand against? And then go find clients that are making inroads in those areas. Go find clients with the money and the clout and the push to ride. What matters to you because that's going to change the nature of the work. It's not about completing a project and getting paid, while that happens, it's about completing a project and changing the world or moving things forward. And I think when we're surrounded by like-minded people who are in a fight that we're in everything shifts and in my mind that really starts with manifesto work.

Jason: [00:18:35] Yeah. I love kind of the, you know, just that simple concept that you mentioned of kind of like build your brand for what you stand for.

Because, like you were saying in the beginning, a lot of people are like, well, how do I build a brand? Like, well, you've already have a brand.

Juju: [00:18:47] Of course. You live it every day.

Jason: [00:18:49] I'm like, it's just about communicating it and figuring it out. And I always like to tell people, it's not just with the written word, like, please do a podcast or a video.

Juju: [00:19:00] Yeah. It's who you are. And we get this idea that we're creating it. We're building a brand, we're creating a brand. We're not creating it. We're showing it. Right. This is what it is. How do I show it? How do I show people who I am, what I'm about, what I'm worth, what I stand for, what I want and all of that can be really polarizing.

It doesn't have to be. Right? But it can be. And we're also afraid of that, right? If I show myself completely, there'll be people who don't like me, but there will also be people who love you. People who get you, people who want to be next to you. People who want you to fight for them. And it's much easier to maintain longer, big money, intricate relationships if people love you. Right? Then if there are lukewarm around about.

Jason: [00:19:44] It eliminates the bad clients later on and like you going, man, I, you know, I took this client on because, you know, I was a little strapped for cash, but now it's a complete nightmare and blowing up in my face, which is making it even more miserable. Versus, you know, maybe I didn't win as much business, but at the end of the day, you're going to win way more business and have a lot more fun working with the people that are in the similar boat.

Juju: [00:20:11] And you're going to be able to stand up for yourself, you know, that, but the biggest emotion for me that was a killer in my agency curve is resentment. Because it would have these clients who would come at me and the very first thing they want to do is negotiate. And they wanted to negotiate on my value as a human.

Right? So it's, well, I don't want to pay you this. I'll pay you this. And in early on in my career, I would negotiate that, I would talk about that. It was only when I got to a point where I did the head work around, this is what I'm worth. This is what I stand for. I don't want to take that. Right? I don't offer bad marketing.

Oftentimes, I would have clients who say, well, you know, we don't want to do this and we don't want to do the strategy work. We just want to do this. And when I finally got to the point where I would say I did it, and I don't offer that as a service, like, I don't know, offer quick and dirty marketing. I'm sure there are people who do I don't sell that. That everything started to shift for me and that resentment, as soon as we sign on to a client or a relationship where we haven't properly set boundaries we are in this resentful position until the relationship ends.

And I watch agency owners do that over and over and over again. And they feel out of alignment with themselves all day long in order to take the money. And it's, it's just a practice learning not to do it.

Jason: [00:21:25] Yeah, I have people all the time they're like, we'll give you this amount for your online program. I'm like, no, it's this or the other day I just was skimming through emails and this one person was like, I read it. Like, I just want to give you $500 cause you helped me out. Like we get that all the time. And then a couple of days later, he was like, I haven't got access to the Agency Playbook.

I'm like, so I go back to the email and read it. Yeah. Skimming it. Right? Like my ADD is kicking in and it was like, I'll give you $500 right now, and you do the Playbook. And I was like, sorry, I read it wrong. I'm refunding your $500. You know? And then he was like, well, really, like, you don't have to do anything.

I was like, but you're not going to value it. Like you're already devaluing it.

Juju: [00:22:08] Exactly. And I didn't offer you that, right. That's not for sale at that price. And I think, you know, back to that original question we talked about around, how can I be more strategic? How can I be a person with creative skills or project management skills who's more strategic?

When you invest your time in that, like, I had to force myself to go to MBA school and I wasn't great at MBA school. It was not a natural state for me, but I did it right. I really had to go. I am fully driven by intuition. Right. So data-driven exercises are work for me, but I did the work.

And when you make that shift, when you really can lay that strategic piece over top, it eliminates some of the discounting that people do about the creative side of things that they don't understand. This is very easy for people to discount. That creative side of the work. Right. And that messaging side and all of that understanding of human psychology people don't value it.

And so when you can lay that strategic piece over top, I think you eliminate some of that, or you put yourself in a position where you can push back harder.

Jason: [00:23:13] Yeah. I mean, once you start negotiating, um, and lowering your prices, you're never going to get out of that because they're always going to think you're coming out high.

I mean, even when I was buying a car, I remember I went in, I did not want to buy a Jeep a couple of years ago. And I went in and I just low-balled the crap out of them for this new Jeep. And they said, yes, I'm like, crap. I should have said lower. Like, I didn't feel like I got the right deal.

Juju: [00:23:37] Yeah. And you know, here's the thing never, ever, ever negotiate on your own hourly rate.

I'll work less hours for you. Right. And if we work less hours, this is the work product you're going to get, but I'm not going to work the same number of hours for less money because it's, this is my business. Right? This is my business. This is what I do.

Jason: [00:23:57] Yeah. And what people don't understand and especially what they'll do is they'll come back and be like, well, so-and-so over there on Upwork can do it for $20 an hour where, and I'm like, well, you don't value your time as much as I thought you did. And they're like, what do you mean?

I'm like, well, sure you can go to them, but you're gonna probably spend four times amount of time managing this person in order to get what you want. And there it's still a 50/ 50 shot on this versus going our way. And you probably get there 90% of the time and you'll have to require this amount of time.

Juju: [00:24:35] And I don't know for that service. So I don't offer a service for clients cycled through the internet and randomly choose me with no ramp-up and no relationship and no understanding of their product or their goals or their financial statements, so that I can do a four-hour job.

I don't, I don't have that service. I can see if you want to buy that, but that's not what we sell here. Right. And I think that that tie back to this is the relationship. This is why we're working together. This is what we're in together. This is what we're trying to accomplish. That's what an agency does.

An agency doesn't present itself on the web and, you know, blind of any relationship deliver creative product, Willy nilly. That's a different business model.

Jason: [00:25:17] Well, I even think like, even if you go back to the, kind of the origin of an agency, like they're the, they were the middlemen. I remember I was doing a video a long time ago about you're in the car industry. Right? So remember, well we know no one remembers when cars first came out,

I was like, put my, you know, my foot and be like, you remember this? So when they actually came out with cars, they couldn't go direct. They had to create car dealers. So they were the middlemen. But even now the car dealers are probably going to start suffering because of the manufacturers can go direct.

Same thing with, you know, Facebook, when they came out with advertising, they went to agencies. You know, Facebook is more going directly in there. And so the whole point of being the agency, it's about not just being that middleman, but being strategic and building that relationship with those people, like you were saying, and that's really how you can be strategic and then they can never really leave you until you say buzz off.

Juju: [00:26:17] And understanding how the industry works. You know, for a very long time, I made the lion's share of my personal money, negotiating advertising for people, right. This is how this works. This is the space you're going to get. This is how many people are going to see it. This is how we're going to use it. This is, you know, who's gonna see it. Right. And those were all negotiations that our agency made on behalf of the clients. And for that, we got paid, we didn't get paid by the client. We got paid by the media company because we were professionals who understood the industry and understood those demographics and understood that region.

So I think since all of the freelancing has started. And all of this sort of talent inside an agency have been broken off. Clients have lost sight of the value of having someone stand in between what I'm trying to accomplish as a corporation, or, you know, as a business, as a person and what this creative person is supposed to deliver.

There's a translation there that happens in a real agency model. And without that, that relationship suffers. You got a different relationship.

Jason: [00:27:25] Awesome. This has all been amazing. Is there anything I didn't ask you that you think would benefit the audience?

Juju: [00:27:31] I think there's some benefit around understanding the way creative people work for agency owners for people who are listening, right?

Like you said, you came up, you know, from, from that project management side or down in the project. I think one of the things that makes a really amazing and profitable agency is understanding that creatives are constantly and always giving a piece of themselves.

Right. Every, every job that a creative professional does, whether I'm a writer or a photographer or a designer or whatever is an extension itself, that at least the folks who are good, right. Every time they're putting on a piece of themselves. And that's really difficult, it's a tender process to manage.

And when CEOs or business owners go direct to the creatives oftentimes that process ends in resentment as well. And so that's a piece of leadership, I think in the agency world that gets, sometimes get kicked to the curb. And, and I think there's a real sweet spot in there. There's a real understanding, of human potential there that separates one agency from the next.

Jason: [00:28:45] Awesome. Since you only work with women in their midlife, if you're a woman in your midlife, where can they go?

Juju: [00:28:52] So you can find me at jujuhook.com. I have a download always at free.primetimejuju.com that helps with personal branding, always with personal branding out in front. And I have a, I have a group of 15 women every year who I take through a nine-month immersion branding program called The Cut.

Jason: [00:29:12] Awesome. Well, everybody go check that out and thanks so much for coming on the show. And if you guys enjoyed this episode and you want to be surrounded by amazing agency owners on a consistent basis where we can really build that relationship with you and see the things that you may not be able to say and help catapult and grow your agency to where you want it to go, rather than where it's going to dictate you to go.

I want to invite all of you to go to the DigitalAgencyElite.com that's DigitalAgencyElite.com. And until next time have a Swenk day.

Manuel Suarez is the Founder and CEO of AGM. Founded in 2015, AGM is a full-service, social media marketing agency that focuses on helping brands acquire the most valuable commodity today: attention. Manuel is sharing how he rapidly grew his agency over $3 Million in the first five years. He attributes a lot of his success to being the face of his agency and exporting his knowledge both to build authority and to train his client.

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3 Golden Nuggets

1. Provide value aggressively. Earn trust and build authority by providing through social media, podcasting, speaking publicly.
2. Successful agency owners are the face of the agency. That means you do not service accounts or work on deliverables. You are vision and strategy. You are the "what" but not the "how." Think Gary Vaynerchuk, who is CEO and the face of VaynerMedia but is not working with clients.
3. Your #1 job is to continually learning and training. Stay on top of your game and export all your knowledge to your team. Surround yourself with the right people and put them in the right seats while also making sure they have access to the right training

Sponsors and Resources

Oribi: Today's episode of the Smart Agency Masterclass is sponsored by Oribi. Check out Oribi.io/smartagency for a free trial. Plus when you sign up for Oribi get 20% off the first three months with promo code: Smart Agency

Jason: [00:00:00] On this episode, I talk with an agency owner. Who's grown over 3 million in revenue in three years, and we talk about. What you need to do as an agency owner in order to really have rapid growth and how you need to get and be that front face for your agency. I know a lot of you want to sit and back, but what his strategy is and why he has people knocking down his doors.

So it's a really good episode. Yeah. I hope you enjoy it.

Hey, Daniel, welcome to the show.

Manuel: [00:00:33] It was great to be here, Jason. Thanks for having me, man.

Jason: [00:00:35] Yeah, I'm excited to have you on, so tell us who you are and what do you do?

Manuel: [00:00:39] All right. My name is Manuel Suarez. I'm the CEO of a marketing agency called AGM Marketing stands for Attention Grabbing Media. And I've been doing marketing for probably about seven years now, accidental like many of us agency owners over the last four years. That led me to, I had a lot of success with a couple of businesses, uh, and that led me to create an agency.

When I got bored with the ones that I was having success with and said, you know what, maybe it's time to explore disability and help some other companies out there.

Jason: [00:01:08] Awesome. So how did you get started? Like what were your first couple of businesses and walk us through that story.

Manuel: [00:01:15] First business, I come from a pretty dark background of no career, no path, no future, no potential, a small little Island in Puerto Rico, a lot of criminality, drugs.

That was my environment. I got lucky along the way. And I discovered opportunities. Um, I, I think that like all of us, we have a lot of, uh, stories. Uh, in my case I was a part of the subprime mortgage market in the U.S. So in 2007, bought my first property somewhere around the peak of the markets.

Lost the house and, um, had three children already. So I had to figure something out that led me to try and try and try things out, fail, fail, fail. Uh, and at one point, somebody talked to me about my first ever business was my brother-in-law coming to me and telling me, you know, there's this thing called FBA fulfilled by Amazon.

And you can sell your own products on Amazon. And that was like a big wake-up moment for me. And, my first official business was launched in 2013. Uh, so that was seven years ago as of the time of this recording. And that particular business became a really, big powerhouse that, um, it's a great story for a lot of people that I can summarize in just a few sentences.

I saw the opportunity on Amazon. I looked at, uh, one of the guys that work with me, uh, on my 9 to 5, and I saw him that he was selling bedsheets on the road, on the weekend. A brand called Clara Clark. I said, let me look at your bedsheets. I opened them up. I saw no labels attached to the bedsheet and I said, perfect.

We're going to create our own brand. I created an idea of a brand it's called Cosy House Collections, c-o-s-y. And I printed a horrible design, which we're still using today on the bedsheet. And, um, I started selling my own private label and within 18 months, a lot of work, a lot of obligation. We were doing $6 million a year and it became a big wake-up call that, Oh, wait a second. I have potential in marketing.

And at the same time, I started helping my father, which is basically my it's a big part of the story is, the special side of my story that I worked on making my father a social media massive influencer, and one of the biggest ones in the world of Latin America.

So those two things were happened concurrently, uh, along the way.

Jason: [00:03:41] Awesome. And so then people started asking you to do this for their business and that's how kind of the agency?

Manuel: [00:03:49] Yeah. So from 2014 or so. Uh, until 2017, I took my dad from complete unawareness of the health industry world to generating 50 million views a month across social media channels.

Uh, we took a brand called Natural Slim, which my dad and I are partners in. And we turned that into from a small little, um, business in Puerto Rico doing a few hundred thousand dollars a year to now, um, do other in '20, we're probably going to break $50 million a year. Um, so somewhere around 2017, that was already rolling.

It was established. Uh, my dad had a YouTube channel with, we had just crossed, I think at that point, a million subscribers, uh, Facebook millions of followers that were doing great. And people were asking me questions and I was invited on a few stages to talk about what I had done with the bedsheets brand, with my dad.

And that led me to, okay, I got people that want to get some help. I don't know anything. I know there's something called an agency, which means that I'm supposed to service people and show them how this thing is done. I seem to have a marketing mind. I know how to position a company and create a strategy and okay, let's do that.

Let's open up the doors. And I got together with two, two of my family members, friends. My brother-in-law who's the one who presented to me the Amazon opportunity to begin with and another friend of mine. And we said, let's build an agency. Let's go. And that's how we started.

Jason: [00:05:15] What were the steps, because as we're recording this right now, you guys around 65 people in a three-year period, is that right?

Manuel: [00:05:24] Yeah. We officially got structured beginning of 2017. So we got we're on our fourth year right now.

Jason: [00:05:31] So if someone's listening now, because, you know, obviously we just kind of jump into the fire and we just start servicing people, but we're not really being proactive, we're being more reactive. So what were some of the things that you did that made a difference that you may think some other agency owners are not even seeing?

Manuel: [00:05:52] I think the most important thing, Jason, that, uh, I don't, I don't think it's clear enough, even though it's obvious and we all talk about it. Uh, it's what you do. It's what I do. We are out there communicating all the time and we're out there positioning ourselves. In my case, I delivered seminars and webinars nonstop.

I just gave value. Aggressively. If you look at my agency right now, I have a lot of, um, I have a lot of clients, we're at 70 staff as the time of this recording right now, and we're growing fast. I'm still looking for more talent, always adding more talent to the team. And also we have an ever-growing list of clients.

I have celebrities, I have social media influencers, I have e-commerce brands, I have Amazon brands. We have all kinds of different clients around different niches, but I can tell you that if I wouldn't have done what I have done of getting on all these stages. I will be like a lot of different clients, a lot of different agencies, which are struggling, trying to find clients. And, I believe, and this is something that I'm really, really adamant about. Jason.

I insist the difference between a successful agency and a failing one or one that has a tough time finding clients, being able to scale and get new accounts is that the successful agency has a leader. That's out there putting themselves in front of the world as much as possible. In my case, I do a lot of content.

I am in social media and I have been in social media, for several years now. I created a personal brand out during the world of social media. I call myself the Facebook marketing Ninja. I have a podcast around that subject. I have, um, getting deep into the world of social media advertising and I teach people and I have a group of people and students, and this is basically what I'm known for.

So whenever people think about, okay, I think I need an agency now to help me, we have that positioning. So I think the main thing that everybody has to if you're trying to build an agency, you got to let people know that you're an expert. That you do want to push forward and helping people first, just giving value, that at some point, if they need to get services, you're the first one that they think about.

Jason: [00:08:02] What do you think holds some agencies back that, that you see? Because obviously, you know, like many agency owners, we always chat with other agencies and we're like trying to figure out what's working. And I know when I'm talking to agency owners on a consistent basis, a lot of them are like, I don't want to be the face.

Right? Like, I like the behind-the-scenes because I don't want everybody always coming to me and then I won't be able to sell my agency and I go, have you ever heard of Gary Vaynerchuk? And they're like, yeah. And they're like, do you think he actually does people's social media posting and all of that?

I'm like, no, I was like, he's built this brand. And you know, it's just following their methodology.

Manuel: [00:08:42] Right. It's built on his own name, but he has nothing to do. Like he says, Gary says himself that he's still the CEO. And I believe that because I have a similar way of operating my organization. The last time Jason, we have a social media advertising agency.

We do a lot more than that. We do a lot of strategy and do many different things like Google advertising, etc... But the last time that I created a campaign myself. Myself. Like I went into the Facebook business manager and I clicked on create and I selected an audience and an ad easily two and a half years ago, Jason.

I stopped doing that quite a while ago, but you know, if, if you don't want to do that route, if you feel uncomfortable with, uh, putting yourself on camera and talking to the world, you got to figure out your marketing strategy because my marketing strategy, it's not the only one. It's a successful one.

It's the quickest path to expansion and social media has presented that opportunity. Having a podcast. It's another opportunity because you get a chance to position yourself like back in the year, 1997 or whatever, you didn't have the ability to communicate to the world for free. And now we do, like with these platforms.

So it is a marketing strategy. It's not the only one, the example of something that's not an agency. My father he's, his name is Frank Suarez. We have a YouTube channel and a Facebook page called MetabolismoTV. His content is what drives the engine. If I take it away, then I have to get really smart about coming out with a new marketing strategy.

It's not the only strategy it's the quickest path to expansion. That's all it is right now. So if you don't feel comfortable doing that, then you got to find something that makes you feel comfortable, but you got to know that it's going to be a struggle more than in my case. Like if I look around my agency, uh, and the staff that I have going on in my day to day operations of my clients, I am servicing people that are my followers that are my fans.

Whenever I jump on a call, they're doing a zoom call, like a strategy session or whatever. And I jumped on it. I see their excitement and their emotion because they're actually in my world because they follow me. That's the road. If you don't go down that road, if you don't present yourself as an expert, then many times you're met with skepticism.

Like, people don't know if you're for real, because they haven't traveled a journey with you. -People that are at my agency. They traveled the journey. So they're there and they trust me and it's pressure on me because they have a certain expectation, but they went through a series of steps before they presented themselves in my organization.

And they gave us a big fat paycheck that included retainers and set up fees and all those things because they trusted me. If you don't have that in place, you're going to be met with skepticism or the best-case scenario, uh, when it comes to, uh, building an agency, if you'd done a job really well done it for a couple of accounts, then those accounts like old school, traditional word of mouth is successful.

And you, you can get other people that say, Hey, I went with X, Y, Z agency, and these guys were awesome. And they helped me out a lot when they come, you're not met with the same skepticism. So that's the challenge. So you either go the traditional route, doing a high-quality product for a couple of clients that allows them to start spreading the word about you.

Or you go down building your own brand with a podcast, with social media, with a YouTube channel that is going to leave people to, Hey, can you guys help me with my marketing? And that's an important positioning right there because people will trust you more.

Jason: [00:12:27] I love it. Now let's kind of go back toward. Maybe a couple of months into it, because if you haven't like, if you've been around for three years and two and a half years, you've stopped doing the, who were the first couple of people. Cause there is a lot of people are going like, all right, what do we need to do?

Like, what's kind of the structure. What was, kind of, the steps that allowed you to get to the point where all your job is really is the vision, creating content, being the face of the organization, and probably a couple of other little things.

Manuel: [00:12:56] Well, I don't another not-that-little thing, Jason will be training.

One of the main things that I've done. I have a weekly training of my staff and I haven't dropped back for one single week. For years, every single week I keep them trained. So even though I am not creating campaigns myself, I know exactly what's going on. And I'm always clicking around sometimes, I get surprised as social media platforms change so fast that I'm training something.

I'm like, well, they changed it on me this morning. Oh no, they changed it four months ago. Oh, wait a second. You know, so that happens quite a bit, but if I had to, I could probably go back and break down the most successful things because I can tell you, Jason, I've probably done more unsuccessful things than successful ones.

So it's an interesting thing to go back and figure that out because, um, it's been a lot of random disorder. Like, give me, let me give you an example. So when I started, I had a team of virtual assistants that were on my previous brand, uh, that I was selling bedsheets on Amazon. Uh, I sold that company in 2017, and that's the money that I used to start creating this agency.

But you don't really need much to build an agency. In all honesty. You don't really need a lot of money in this world. You need an internet signal. Uh, you need a lot of knowledge, intellectual properties, like the number one most important thing. But I actually use that money to bring in some talent. And, um, some of the first things that I did was that I brought this team of like six virtual assistants and I brought them with me and I said, you guys are coming with me.

And I started just getting going with like, the accounts that I had, that I had, what I had, I had my dad's account, which was my business. And then I had also another big influencer reach out to me because of my dad's recommendation. And that's, this guy is still a powerhouse. He's one of the biggest influencers on the subject of the ketogenic diet, which is Dr. Eric Berg, four million subscribers on YouTube, a big powerhouse.

So he came in shortly after I formed the agency. It was six of us back then. And now it's 70 of us and we're grown with him step-by-step. The major thing that I had that was different. I didn't really have a connected team, Jason, like we will not meet consistently and everybody was operating on their own.

One thing that I implemented along the way was daily staff meetings. So every day it's 9:20 AM. as I'm recording this right now. At 9:30 AM we have a staff meeting every single day. And, uh, we have a lot of people that are local, about 25 of us right now. And then we have the rest of them that are all over the world.

Many of them in the United States, many of them overseas, the Philippines, uh, Europe, etc. And then we all get together at 9:30 AM. So it's almost like getting everybody on the same page every day. One of the challenges of building a remote team in this new environment, especially in the COVID-19 world is the fact that you have to make sure that everybody is connected as if they were operating in the same building.

You try to replicate the feeling of having people next to you, desk by desk. So you can have an eye over their desk or their computer. So you know what they're doing. So systems like that are very important to build within your organization. So you can monitor the activity at all times and not let people run their own show.

Because that's not what you're trying to do, because if you own an agency, let people run their own show, it's going to just stain in your brand because people are going to want to think that they have freedom to create whatever the heck they want. Instead of you, as the leader, as the founder, you are guiding the strategy and you're telling them what to do, what not to do.

And what is the correct sequential steps to take on a particular account for them to have success? There are many things that we've done wrong Jason, but I can tell you definitely there are a few key points and that's one of them is training staff, for sure. Very important. Keeping them trained and yourself trained, never thinking that, uh, you're already extremely proficient in the world of advertising or whatever, because that attitude is going to lead towards a decline.

So just stay in yourself at top of the game, but then export that knowledge into these people. So they can also themselves increase their own skill along the way. Awesome. And what are some other things that help catapult you outside of training, staff meetings, that kind of stuff. So, so I've never done lead generation ads for agency clients.

Uh, what I can tell you that I have done is that I have done a lot of lead generation for my own personal brand and education. Of these people in my own world. So what I have been doing over the years is that for example, I have a series of mini-courses, mini trainings on subjects that are important.

I have a mini-course on building your business with Facebook ads and also finding your ideal audience on Facebook and Messenger marketing, uh, which is another big deal. Which is my agency just won the award for the top-performing agency for ManyChat 2020. So this is something that we have gone really deep into, uh, over the last few years.

So I take very specific training, let's say four or five lessons, and I say, I'm going to show you about this. This is an opportunity, and I'm going to detail you the roadmap to be able to have success. With ManyChat, for example, with Messenger marketing, with chat marketing, or whatever the case may be. So I do ads to promote that.

So Facebook ads, LinkedIn ads, Instagram ads, whatever to bring them into my world. And once they come into my world, uh, Jason, I, I have a sequence of nurturing and, uh, I just keep on presenting the opportunity and I keep on enlightening people along the way. And this helps me create, uh, people interested in what I have to offer and many times how a lot of these people are not qualified as you, as you probably know, Jason, I would say that I'm out of a hundred leads that I have potentially I get one or two people that are qualified to be an agency client. And that's okay. Because the qualification process is very, very important for your organization.

There are, I think you're the one that says something as there's not. No such thing as a bad client?

Jason: [00:19:10] No, there's only a bad prospect or a bad process.

Manuel: [00:19:13] Exactly. Right? So that's 100% a fact, guys. It's a, it's true because if you have a good process in place, you can make sure that these people are not coming into your lines.

And that happens on the way. So you're, you're desperate at first as an agency and you taking everything like I started with no contracts and that's okay. Hey, I'm going to, you're going to call me, you're going to get results the first month. Overselling yourself, like crazy, which is absolutely a mistake.

Uh, if you ask me, Jason, what is the, what is one of the biggest mistakes that I've made in my career as an agency owner is overselling, over-promising people, over-promising. Now I go in the opposite direction and if they don't like it, I shake hands. And I say, I wish you, well, go ahead and kill it you're not in my agency.

Currently, we're at a really good level right now. We are really profitable as an organization. We do great. So I can actually be more selective as to what comes in and what doesn't come in. But right now we have a six-month agreement. So somebody has to be willing to agree to six months.

Now I want to get rid of that and I want to go towards a year. As, as you do that, but I'm not that, that ready yet, Jason, because that really scares people off. Like a year, especially if you're not ready, but you know, it's pros and cons, right? Cause you want to have people scare off like, as an agency owner, you want to have people that are with you.

And if you have people that are too tight that if they give you a few thousand dollars a month in my make or break them, and they might not be able to feed their families. You want to try to skip that and just hold on tight because otherwise the branding nightmare that can occur for your organization and the effects that it can cause, go way beyond that cycle.

So one of the biggest lessons that I've learned. And I, and I apply that one, 100%. I sometimes I get on a call and I said, are you sure you want to do this? It's you gotta be willing to grab the money and put it in the garbage bin. All right. Because marketing is, is an ever-growing landscape. It changes fast.

And I wish I could tell you that I will always succeed, but I don't always succeed. If you're coming into this game, we are both sacrificing. And I'm putting myself on the line. You're putting yourself and we're going to add this. You have to be willing to shake my hand and say, okay, it didn't work out, and walk away.

If you're willing to do that sign. If not, let's walk away from each other.

Jason: [00:21:30] Yeah. I always love when people ask for the guarantee and I always tell them a couple of things. I go, well, I can guarantee you if you keep doing the same thing, the same way you're going to get the same results. But I can guarantee you I'll give you our best effort and that's all I can promise you.

And I like, you gotta be willing to throw in the garbage. I always felt uncomfortable because it is always, it's not a guarantee. Like if I'm working with someone that this is their last dollar, it's just too much pressure on me because then I start making decisions based on money and it's just too stressful.

And then you kind of, kind of screw it up. But you, you unpacked a lot of amazing things in there. You know, the other thing too, like. You know, when we were, I think you were speaking in New York when I was doing the same thing and I remember asking everybody there, I was like, how many of you agencies have a podcast?

And it was like 850 people in the room. And there was like 10. And I think you were one of them that raised the hand and it's like, we have a podcast. And you know, I look at the amount of value that people podcasting put out. Like even when I look at the numbers of our podcasts, we're filling a stadium every month, a stadium.

Just to let that sink in. Like, I keep like holy cow, that many people are listening?! And then like you were saying, then you have a waiting list or people they like and trust you. Now here's something I'm going to tell you, Manuel, how you can get the year contracts.

If you actually structure the deal where you have like a foot in the door, like some easy service to build trust, they go into a project, and then you'll see how, like, if you like working with them and then commit them to a 12-month deal.

It would change everything if you do that, we'll talk offline on that.

Manuel: [00:23:10] I could, I could probably steal that. I like your guarantee also. I will, I will probably steal that, Jason, and won't give you any credit.

Jason: [00:23:17] There you go. Is there anything I didn't ask you that you think would benefit the audience?

Manuel: [00:23:22] I think that, um, one important question is. Uh, what does it really take to succeed as an agency owner? And that's a pretty deep question. And, because I, I believe Jason, therefore for every. I dunno if you have better numbers than me, but I have seen a lot more people fail at it than succeed. And when I look at the ones that have made it, that's the ones that succeeded.

They work aggressively on building a process and a system. And they were, uh, building a team around them that they can export their abilities to. If you stay too concentrated on you doing every single task yourself and not training your staff along the way, then you can't grow, you can't scale. So that's one thing.

What, what does it take? It's determination. It's uh, persistence it's working hard. You know, if you, if you wake up every day and you put the energy on it, and even though you fail and you stand up and you keep going, I mean, that's the way to go. Like eventually you will be able to breakthrough. It's not always pretty.

There's a lot of downs. There's some ups. And downs and that's all part of the game and its part of the business. But at this stage, you get to a point that you can experience freedom. And I have a lot more freedom. I have a lot more staff now and, they run the show. And at this point where I'm at right now, I'm the visionary.

I call them and I get them to execute a vision. And as simple as that, I'm not doing the micro details of my day-to-day operations, but it wasn't always like that. So it takes a lot of hard work. You know, every successful entrepreneur will tell you, but staying yourself on top of the game and pushing hard and, building a team around you and, uh, exporting your own abilities with training.

That's what it's all about.

Jason: [00:25:03] Yeah. I saw a stat. There was, I think somewhere at 9% of agencies survive six years.

Manuel: [00:25:10] Wow. 9%

Jason: [00:25:12] That people just go call it quits. And like you were saying, it's all about the systems that they put in place and making sure that they're communicating that vision and putting the right people in the right seat is everything.

So that's awesome. What's the agency website people can go and check out?

Manuel: [00:25:29] AGMagency.com. AGM stands for Attention Grabbing Media so you guys can check it out.

Jason: [00:25:35] Awesome. I love it. Everybody go check that out. And if you guys liked this episode and you guys want to be surrounded by amazing agency owners, that can show you their systems and be able to show you or see the things that you might not be able to see within your agency.

I want to invite you guys to go check out the DigitalAgencyElite.com. This is our exclusive mastermind where we have tons of fun. There is no egos in the door. These agency owners have all become my really close friends and have grown at a rapid pace because they've put in the right systems and they have a support network to help us through all the crying that we do as agency owners.

So go to DigitalAgencyElite.com and until next time have a Swenk day.

Nick Norris is a former United States Navy SEAL, now the CEO and co-founder of Protekt Products. He is a graduate of both the United States Naval Academy and Basic Underwater Demolition / SEAL (BUD/S) Class 247. Upon completion of SEAL training in 2004, Nick assumed progressively higher positions of leadership within Naval Special Warfare. Nick is sharing how his leadership training in the SEALs can help entrepreneurs excel in business.

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3 Golden Nuggets

1. We are only limited by our minds. Most of what stands in our way is head trash and it just takes a shift in mindset in order to push yourself and succeed.

2. Have humility and be humble enough to know you're not the expert in all things. This gives you the insight necessary to put the right people in the right seats and trust them to do their job effectively in order to grow your business.
3. Preparedness is the key to conquering stress. Training scenarios and mission planning are at the core of what Navy SEALs do so they aren't caught off-guard by any situation thrown at them. Entrepreneurs should tackle business the same way in order to be successful.

Sponsors and Resources

Verblio: Today's episode of the Smart Agency Masterclass is sponsored by Verblio. Check out Verblio.com/smartagency and get 50% off your first month of content creation. Our team loves using Verblio because of the ease in their process and their large pool of crowd-sourced writers.

Show Transcripts

Jason: [00:00:00] On this episode, I talk with him former Navy SEAL, Nick, who goes through how they would make decisions, how they apply that to the civilian world, how you can be a better leader and get out of stressful situations. It's a really amazing episode. I'm so honored to have Nick on the show and you guys are going to really love it.

Hey Nick, welcome to the show.

NIck: [00:00:29] Well, thank you for having me, Jason.

Jason: [00:00:31] Yeah, I'm excited to have you on, so tell us who you are and what do you do?

NIck: [00:00:35] Oh, my name is Nick Norris, I guess I would be known as a former SEAL by a lot of people, right? That's why I've connected with people, but I currently am an entrepreneur.

Uh, I have a company called Protekt Products and, and we are in the wellness space, producing supplements and sun care products. And our supplements are geared toward improving people's hydration and helping them sleep better.

Jason: [00:01:04] Awesome. Fantastic. Well, first off, thanks for your service, especially for all the people that I've ever served.

So thank you very much, but what made you decide to be a Navy SEAL?

NIck: [00:01:15] Uh, so I wanted to do something difficult, you know, when people ask me that question and I've thought a little bit about it now because the question comes up often, I always was looking for something that was personally challenging. I wasn't the most naturally talented person athletically growing up, I had to really work hard and I wanted to find something that I could apply myself to that required a tremendous amount of personal discipline and that commitment and personal discipline would be.

The thing that would drive success, not necessarily innate athletic ability or just innate talent. So I gravitated towards the SEAL teams because it was really difficult. I knew I could apply myself diligently in a disciplined way and get results. And that happened, I kind of fixated on it early in life or right around seventh grade.

When a friend of mine had told me about the community and how difficult it was to enter that community specifically. Did someone tell you if you can never do it, is that what pushed you to do it? So my, the initial friend, a guy named Mike Hurley, who's a police officer in Chicago. He's the one that brought it up to me.

He was a big fan of the Marine Corps. He wanted to be in the military and he mentioned the Seal teams and he was always super positive. But the second that I latched onto that concept and I was actually pretty vocal about it, you know, growing up seventh, eighth-grade high school. But I, I definitely had people close to me that told me.

Dude, you're crazy. There's no way you're going to do that. And if it added fuel to the fire, right, that's typically what happens, right. People that are very driven get told that they can't do something and then you want to prove them wrong and improve that you're capable of controlling your own destiny.

Jason: [00:03:02] Yeah. I remember, uh, I came back from college one time and my dad used to run all the time and we used to run this like one and a half-mile loop. And he was like, Hey, can you with me? I was like, yeah, I'll run with you. And literally, we passed right in the very beginning, we pass this old guy just walking.

And when we got back around this loop, my dad was way ahead of me. And I was so embarrassed. I remember walking by the old guy and the old guy was like, well, you better get them next time or something. And then. I saw something where people were doing this triathlon. And I told my dad, I said, I'm going to do a triathlon.

Or maybe I told him I was going to do an iron man or something. And, uh, and he was like, Oh, you can't do that. And literally it fueled me and I was like, I just finished under the cut.

NIck: [00:03:49] Yeah. Yeah, it's good. Right? That, that external motivation is, is motivation and powerful motivation on the left. Yeah.

Jason: [00:03:57] So I heard something, I guess you guys have, or maybe it's a rule it's like a 70/30 or something where you feel like your body's like completely shot, but you still have a ton to go. Is that true? Or is it there's a 70/30 rule?

NIck: [00:04:13] So I, I haven't heard of it specifically like that, but it definitely makes sense. I mean, generally speaking, we're limited by our mind, not by our body and you know, I, I've gone through a bunch of stuff in my personal life that has shown me that, I mean, growing up as an athlete and not being as talented as everybody else and knowing that I could dig deep and that my, you know, my mind wanted to tell me to stop.

And, and to keep going and then going into buds was another very pointed example of that, that whole program, you know, the SEALs, selection and training program, which is called BUD/S., Basic Underwater Demolition SEAL training is structured to break every single person down to a point where you are not physically capable of doing it on your own, and you're not physically capable of just crushing it the entire time.

It gets you to a point where you have to dig deeper, you have to face kind of those mental barriers and then draw, I passed them. And in doing so you find out that. You are capable of doing so much more than your mind is telling you you're capable or your body's capable of, uh, so much more than your mind thinks it is.

Jason: [00:05:32] I can only imagine that's gotta be a humbling experience because I would think obviously I was not in the military and it's a regret I've had, but I can only imagine. The people that go through BUD/S, they're probably at the top of their game, on the physical ability. And then just to be broken down and to have to depend on other people, I guess that's the whole design of it.

So that's, um, it's really pretty cool.

We had to, I mean, a huge amount of people that were tremendous athletes, I mean, very talented, like Olympic caliber athletes that faltered, when things got really tough. You know, and, and not necessarily the, on the physical side of things, but immersion in cold water is something that's a big part of our pipeline, our selection pipeline.

And, you know, there's really nothing you can do. It's like physically, yeah, you might be a bigger guy and you might be more insulated than, than the guy that's, you know, 130 pounds next to you. But both of you will get to a point where you're going to get cold. And that's where like you really have to dig deep.

I mean, that's where kind of that mental toughness and kind of that ability to kind of drive past discomfort and push yourself beyond where you think you can go, uh, comes in. So I saw guys that were tremendous athletes, you know, falter in that regard. And then I, you know, the counterpoint to that is I saw guys that you would have bet everything they would have failed because they just were not.

You know the most impressive physical specimens and they were the toughest guys that I went through training with and the polar opposite of what you would imagine a SEAL candidate to look like. You know, they were maybe 15, 20 pounds overweight, not athletic, you know, struggled in most of the physical evolutions, but could just crush it when things got extremely tough.

That's awesome. So let's talk about high pressure situations because obviously, running an agency is very different than being in the military and you guys have gone through a lot of high pressure situations, being a SEAL and a lot of agency and entrepreneurs that think they're in high pressure situations for their business.

And I've always found when there's emotion or a lot of stress, or I guess stress creates emotion, which emotion creates bad decisions. How did you guys learn how to deal with that and to get that under control in order to make the right decision?

NIck: [00:07:56] Yeah. I mean, so just dealing with stress, right? I mean, stress is stress regardless of where the origin of that stress is coming from, you know, whether it be high-risk financial decisions as an agency owner or an element leader in a SEAL platoon in combat.

I mean, you're still going to be exposed to stress and in our community, you know, we, we train a lot. We train significantly more than the time that we actually spend in direct combat operations. Um, I mean there's guys pre 9/11 that didn't really get to see any combat and spent 20, 30 years in training, basically preparing for that opportunity to excel in kind of the high-stress kind of game-day scenario.

And I would say that that extreme level of preparation or commitment to preparation, uh, becomes a stress inoculator. The training that I went through and I've referred to this example several times and it, and I will continue to refer to it. Jocko Willink, who is a very well-known SEAL owns Echelon Front, which is a consultancy here in the States.

Jocko was my sister troop commander. He also put me through training when I was a platoon commander and he was running our training detachment on the West coast. And I specifically remember multiple times during my training where I felt significantly more stress because I knew I was being critiqued by someone that I respect.

And I was being critiqued by my peers in that kind of a high-performance training scenario. I felt more stressed there than I did an actual combat operations. And I have memories of being in uh, direct engagement with the enemy, you know, receiving incoming enemy fire and making calls and making decisions on the battlefield and feeling more comfortable and more confident because of the training that high stakes, high level, high stress training that I went through.

So, you know, it's a testament to the fact that you know, preparation breeds inoculation distress. And will allow you to control those emotions that seem to overwhelm people that are ill-prepared.

Jason: [00:10:16] Yeah. Whenever I think about the points in my life, when was the most stressful, it was really, it came down to being prepared or not being prepared.

Like I just was like, ah, kind of wing it. I'll be good at that pitch. And then I would go in and be like, Holy cow, but then if I look at situations where I felt totally relaxed, it was, I've done this a thousand times. Like you were saying that repetition and I was just prepared and I was just like, No.

Now I can get on, like, I look at getting on stage because a lot of people fear getting on stage. And I remember when I ran the agency, I would get on stage and I would talk about stuff I really didn't know about just to get on stage. But then now I get on stage and talking about, you know, running an agency I'm like, ask me anything.

Like, I feel totally prepared. Like there you can't throw me any curveballs. That is so true.

NIck: [00:11:09] There is no easy solution. Right? You got to put the work in, you have to be well-prepared and it was evident in every single thing that we did in the SEAL teams. You know, whether it was the training scenarios, uh, whether it was our mission planning and kind of the preparation prior to going out on an actual real-world operation, you know, we prepared diligently.

Uh, we exhausted every scenario that we possibly could think through in order to contingency plan, plan, and really try to have, have the answers before the tests. You know, we, we tried to go through everything and come up with theoretical problems and solutions and did it in a manner where everybody on the team understood what those scenarios could be and how we would potentially address them.

And 99% of the time, we never even had to address those contingencies on the actual operation. The operation, typically it would just be easy, right. But it's that 1% opportunity where something bad goes wrong and you have to deal with it. And if you know what you are going to do ahead of time, because you've already talked through it with your team.

Emotion doesn't even play into it. You go into autopilot and you just start addressing the issues and taking care of business.

Jason: [00:12:35] Other than just putting your team through repetition, repetition, and let's think about it on, on a business front, right? Because a lot of entrepreneurs, a lot of leaders, you know, they hear that, you know, they hear you talking about them and they're like, well, it's a life-death situation.

Like they have to do it all. But a lot of business leaders and including me sometimes, and I'm actually going to think about the way I do it is like, we don't have time to plan for every single result. We'll just go. We'll react and then we'll react to however happens, which is probably the wrong way.

Cause if you told people like, Hey, your life depends on this. Don't you want to think of every result? Like what do you say to those people?

NIck: [00:13:17] Yeah, I mean, but I mean, even as a, as a business leader, you have the opportunity to put systems in place, right? I mean, you know, let's say on the sales front, you know, you can put together your targets, you can talk about how you approach those targets, the way that you're going to pitch certain people.

Cause it's different. Every single time you're going to bring different people on your team to certain pitches because they're going to be received better by certain demographics that you're pitching to. And. You can plan all of that stuff. And it's not a waste of time and energy to do that. I mean, you're going to know your team better by doing that by digging in and understanding what strengths each and every person on your team has.

You're going to be able to tap into those strengths easier. Uh, more fluidly and be able to apply those strengths from your team appropriately in the right pitches. And then, you know, the, the actual pitch itself, it becomes pretty robotic and pretty structured. You know, it's not like there's a tremendous amount of variance in kind of pitching to a new client.

You can really lay that stuff out well, and, and even, you know, you should be practicing that you should huddle as a team. You should have people practicing their pitch, the way that they converse with you as the way they converse with the client. So, you know, I know people may say, yeah, you know, we, we just read and react and, uh, and we don't have the time to do this, but I don't think you have time not to do that because if you get in front of somebody, That's a decision-maker.

I mean, that's life and death, financially. I mean, people will downplay it and say, Oh yeah, well you're in combat. Yeah. It is life and death. Yeah. True. You know, you're not going to die in a pitch if you lose, but you know, if you lose a big pitch and you're in financial dire straits, I can say this. I said this before we started our call, I would be more stressed.

And I probably would allow that to impact me more emotionally if I was in a situation where I, I felt out of control and I lost my financial security and I couldn't take care of my family. That still produces an extremely high level of stress. So I think it all, it's all relative.

Jason: [00:15:29] Yeah, I totally agree.

And I remember one time we, we over-prepared for this one pitch going in and I remember just going in there, like yeah, we'll decide with you. I'm like, but I was thinking in my mind, we were so prepared. You need to ask us this question so we can like it. Wasn't waiting for time. It wasn't wasted. We made us that much better for the next pitch, the next campaign, the next, you know, initiative that we needed to do.

Let's change, focus a little bit around building your team and being a good leader. How did you guys select who you wanted on your team and really kind of get them to the next level where everybody was in sync, because it's the same within business. Like you have to get the right people in the right seat, all that believe in that certain vision or mission ahead of you.

NIck: [00:16:17] Well, so in the SEAL team, it's actually easier because we all go through the same selection process. For the most part, you get a tremendous product. On the backend of that selection process, and you get sent to a SEAL team and you get put into a platoon and there's really, you don't want people in the, in the background picking these people out, like handpicking them, you just get a bunch of SEALs.

You get like you get a rough cut SEAL that has made it through the same selection process that every other SEAL has made it through. So you know what you have to start with. So as a leader, you know, that's easier for me, you know, I think it's actually the leadership in the SEAL teams was easy because of that, you know, as opposed to being in the civilian world where you don't necessarily get that high-level selection process, you know, you get to interview somebody, maybe put them on as an intern and get to see them perform for a period of time, but you don't get to vet them for a year, a year and a half.

And, uh, for us, the leadership really. I mean, leadership is always important, but it became critically important in the way that you grew your people, you leverage their strengths and their weaknesses, and you slotted them into the right role with the right responsibilities as part of that team. So. I didn't have a choice as to who I got, but I did have a choice as to where I put those people on my team.

Jason: [00:17:48] Man, maybe I need to create BUD/S for agency employees.

NIck: [00:17:54] Put them through like a six-month just grinder and just like every like high stress all day. But, but you know what, from a leadership standpoint, to give you more of a granular answer, you know, we trust and respect are two big things. As far as leadership is concerned, successful leadership in the, in any team and also humility as a leader. So being humble enough to know that you don't have all the answers. And even if you're in a position of leadership where you are accountable, you still. Should never say I need to be the end all be all.

I need to know everything. I mean, it's great. You should tap in and try to learn as much as you can, but be humble enough to know that you're not the expert. You got people on your team that are absolute experts in the role that they're there to execute. And in the SEAL teams, you know, we had people that breached doors, we had people that were snipers.

We had people that were communicators. We had people that conducted all of our medical training and, and cared for our unit from a medical standpoint. And, you know, as a leader, I wanted to know the capabilities that each of those people brought to the team, but they were the expert and I needed to be trusting enough.

And confident enough in their ability to perform and to be experts in their field to allow them to do their job effectively, let them lead in their own right in their lane. And then be able to apply those strengths at the appropriate times in order to put together a successful operation.

Jason: [00:19:31] Yeah. I think the perception too, and I learned this the hard way, and I guess a lot of people listening, you know, they think of Navy SEALs, all alphas, right.

And you probably alphas in your own realm, but I think you mentioned the keyword humility and being humble to know that they don't know everything because I remember. I was looking for this graphic designer many years ago. And I remember coming across, they were the most amazing designer I've ever, ever seen on this one particular thing, but they were the cockiest son of a bitch I've ever met.

And I was like, I cannot put this poison in this company, even though they're the best. They're not the best for the team, you know, going forward. Now I heard a story. Now this is not around me, but I want to understand how you guys make decisions as a team. As well, as, as a leader, I was listening to a podcast and Scott Kelly on the, you know, the astronauts lived in space for a year.

And I think they had some problems with the heat shield and NASA was like, Hey, you know, it's your decision. And he said, I could have asked everyone in a group setting, you know, what do you guys think we should do? Should we go out and do a spacewalk fix it? Or should we just, which could actually damage it more?

Or should we just come down? And he said, he goes, we actually, um, I went to everyone individually and asked them rather than having committee make the decision. What were kind of like your decision process when you were leading your team?

NIck: [00:20:58] So I'll refer back to kinda my Afghan deployment, my last active duty deployment as a SEAL, you know, I went into a platoon that had some leadership issues.

And I was replacing a, another officer that had been removed from the platoon. So kind of a broken scenario, a lot of distrust, a lot of, uh, internal conflict. And I was showing up from a different theater. I came from Iraq and I was going into Afghanistan and. What I did initially just sit back and listen.

I mean, I think it's important when you have the time when you're not in the high-stress scenario is get to know the people that are in your team. Listen to them. Don't just talk, right? The more you can shut your mouth and listen, you learn a tremendous amount. And what I learned in listening is who are the trusted experts, who are the people that really have a finger on the pulse and know how other people in the team are feeling.

And, you know, I, I was able to gauge the level of credibility of each individual that I listened to. And by doing that, I basically formed. This, uh, abstract advisory board within my team where when things were, I guess, getting more high pressure and we needed to make some serious decisions and decisions that were going to be high stakes, you know, we're going into a dangerous area, or we were going to do a certain type of operation.

I could always go back and I could talk to some of these critical leaders within my element. Because I've already vetted them. And I knew who I could go to, uh, who was credible and who was capable of giving me sound advice. And I think in doing that, I was able to confidently make decisions because ultimately as the leader, the top person in a unit, I'm accountable for the decision.

So as much as I want to take the advice of everybody else and the council. When it comes down to it, I need to be confident in making the decision. And I gotta be the one that falls on the sword, if things go wrong, uh, because I'm definitely the one that's getting the credit when things go right. You know, so I need to be willing to accept that level of accountability and stand on my own two feet.

Jason: [00:23:17] What were some of the questions that you would ask when you were coming in in order to get them? Just because a lot of times I would think, you know, as a leader comes into an organization that has a little, little fun going on, some people are going to be a little standoffish or be like, what are you going to do for me? What were some of the questions that kind of disarmed that?

NIck: [00:23:38] Well, I think empowering people, right? So like giving people the opportunity to say, Hey, like what have you seen go, right? What have you seen go wrong? What are things that you would change or what changes would you enact? Uh, if you were given the opportunity to do that, and then not just kind of hypothetically talking about it, but actually empowering people and letting them make decisions. As the leader, you don't always have to be the one that's making kind of you're accountable for the final call, but you don't have to be the one that makes that final call.

There was a lot of the times that I mean, I say typically our mission planning process was allowing each individual kind of unit or element within the bigger element to actually run the planning process and make decisions as to where they're going to place themselves, how they're going to execute a micro portion of the plan.

And they actually go through brief that. And they would brief all the contingencies associated with that micro portion of the bigger plan. So in essence, I'm allowing them, I'm empowering them as leaders in their own right. To make decisions, to build confidence. So they already are like, Hey, you know what?

I'm not only the leader. Isn't, uh, you know, the, the high-level leader, isn't just asking me for my opinion, that leader is actually allowing me to make decisions and trust me to make decisions that he's cool with, he's ready to execute on. So I think that's important. It's like, don't just be talk, don't just be kind of, don't give people the warm and fuzzy actually trust people, show that you are confident in their ability to make decisions and execute on things.

Jason: [00:25:17] Yeah. I love that. What was the major decision for really kind of leaving the SEALs and going kind of the corporate, the civilian route.

NIck: [00:25:29] Uh, so, so I have a bit of an unconventional transition, I guess I came off my last deployment and I think two things for me happened that really changed the dynamic as a SEAL officer.

I knew that I was 100% committed to my job to be in a combat leader, leading men well in combat and making sure that I make sound decisions that are going to put them first and bring them home safe. And. My wife got pregnant with our first child, our daughter. And that was, it was a big deal. And not necessarily the.

The linchpin catalyst that led to my decision to leave, but it definitely weighed in. And the second major event in my life was my younger brother. My middle brother, Chris was killed in an inbounds avalanche in Winter Park, Colorado. So my little brother left behind a wife and two young kids. And, you know, they were the first ones to know that my wife was pregnant with our first.

And it really was a perspective shift for me. You know, I got to see what my brother's family went through in losing him and knowing that I was about to become a father, you know, it was much easier for me to visualize the very real possibility of, of me. You know, being killed or just frankly being taken from my family for long periods of time and training, um, with the, the level of commitment that I owed to the SEAL team.

So it was a perspective shift there that led to me saying, okay, I'm going to get out. I want to focus on my family. I want to be there for my family and other loved ones in my life. And at that point I said, I, you know, I wanted to reinvent myself. I wanted to prove people wrong. I wanted to prove that I could do something besides being a combat leader.

I wanted to prove that I could actually be successful in a career outside of the military with direct kind of gun toting skills that I was coming to the table with.

Jason: [00:27:39] I totally get that. You know, I, I used to race cars and, you know, I started seeing some of our, our friends that I would know would get injured.

And I was just, you know, right when I had my second son, I was like, I was like you, I was like, if I get hurt, I get hurt, but it's going to affect my family going forward. And so that's kind of why I kind of hung up the race suit.

NIck: [00:28:01] It's always a good exercise to step back and kind of evaluate your priorities at any point in life.

And I think the more frequent you can do that exercise the better off you are, because it makes sure that you're staying on track. Right? I mean, if you don't do that exercise. From time to time, you're going to slowly but surely deviate from course to a point where if too much time elapses, you know, you may find yourself in a pretty bad place.

And, uh, You know, and I, I wouldn't say I am immune to that because I have, I have spoke very openly and very freely about my own personal struggles and kind of losing course post-transition and it kind of losing focus on the priorities that led me to transitioning from the SEAL teams in the first.

Jason: [00:28:51] No, that's great. Last question I forgot to ask was around, have you ever had to replace a teammate?

NIck: [00:28:58] Well, so yeah, I mean, in my, on that last. Deployment to Afghanistan. I replaced a teammate that was removed relinquished from a leadership role over in Afghanistan. And that was the biggest learning experience for me as a leader, to be able to step into a broken scenario and have to figure it out, right.

Have to win people over that don't necessarily know you very well. And, and kind of when that confidence and that trust, you know, in a short period of time. Well, when you came into that environment though, was there anybody that you had to replace, you know, going in or make that hard decision to be like that person on the team is not the right fit?

Yeah. So let me think about it. I, so in that scenario, I was not the one that had to pull the trigger and, and replace that person. We did replace, uh, people in previous platoons and it's never easy. Right? I mean, it's you know, I think the things that we did, right, and we often did this because it was protocol in the SEAL teams is we brought the issue up early and often it was never a surprise for the person.

If it was a surprise, it actually tied our hands in our ability to remove that individual from a position, regardless of whether it's a leadership position, a high level leadership position, or just a, a position within a, uh, a SEAL platoon, you know, we, we executed counseling multiple times and everything was recorded.

And the person was very clear as to what our expectations were, where they were falling short, because if you don't give people clear expectations and you don't give them defined objectives for them to hit that, our metrics of their performance, how can you hold them accountable? How can you -- I think you are failing as a leader if you're not clear and you're not giving them those well-defined objectives.

You know, you should be looking at replacing yourself or counseling yourself if you're not doing that. So if ever if you're pulling somebody into your, office to tell them that you're going to let them go, and that person is surprised or has his hearing those things for the first time, it's absolutely the wrong way to approach that scenario.

Jason: [00:31:11] Yeah, looking back, I've done that so many times in the very early years and I'm like, man, why did I have to surprise them? Like if I just kind of let them know my expectation, the whole way and kind of just seed it the right way, it could have turned out totally different.

NIck: [00:31:27] Yeah. It's always tough. Right? To be direct.

Communication is scary for a lot of people. People don't like confrontation in the outside world. It's difficult to sit face to face with somebody. And tell somebody that they're failing at something, you know, or that, you know, you're disappointed in them. It's easy to tell them when they're, you know, they're... hey there, you're doing a great job and you're exceeded expectations, but people just, they shy away from confrontation and conflict.

And, you know, I've noticed, and I've learned this myself because it's tougher on the outside because I, I am dealing with people that I did not. Have go through a selection process, right? So, you know, sometimes I'm bringing people in and I think they're going to be the best person ever to fill that role.

And three months later, I'm finding out that they are inadequate, you know, might not have had the skillset that they, they came into it saying they did. And they might even have personality traits that are cancerous within the unit. And, direct communication. The times that I've been direct and very clear with my expectations and kind of clear in their critique of their execution in their role, it's been so much easier than those times where I've shied away from it and they don't know, they can't read your mind.

They don't hear the conversations that you're having with your business partners about how you're disappointed in somebody. And it's like, you got to tell people, or they're never going to be able to fix it.

Jason: [00:32:57] Well, I think as, as leaders, if I think back at kind of the early years, I think it was, comes down to a couple, I think two things it's comes down to, you don't know the solution that they actually need to go do to fix it.

Or you feel like a, a bad leader because you don't know the solution for them. And then just this resentment builds up and then it just pops one day and then you surprise them and then it's just, it's not good for anyone. So it's yeah. It's crazy. Well, this has all been amazing. Is there anything I didn't ask you that you think would benefit the listeners?

Oh, I mean, I, it's tough. There's so much to talk about. I mean, we could, we could talk leadership and, uh, in various scenarios all day long, so I'm happy to do it anytime, brother.

Awesome. I appreciate it. If anybody ever wants to reach out to you or go to your business or charity, where can they go?

NIck: [00:33:51] Yeah. I mean, so for me personally, I'm on Instagram, pretty easy to find there.

I think I'm @Nick_Norris1981, and my business is protekt.com protect with a K. And we're @protektlife on Instagram. And then for the charity, I would say the C4 Foundation. It's a charity that I am intimately involved with. I am currently filling the executive director role in combination with my, my efforts as an entrepreneur.

And, uh, so I have a little bit going on, but a C4 foundation was named after Charles Humphrey Keating IV. Who was a friend of mine that was killed in combat in the SEAL teams, uh, about four years ago in Northern Iraq. And, the foundation is building a 560-acre ranch about an hour and a half outside of San Diego in order to be a sanctuary for Navy SEAL families to kind of grow connection within their individual family unit.

And grow connection amongst kind of other families to kind of build that organic support mechanism for guys and, and their families as they go through their deployments on active duty. And then when they finally leave active duty, they have people that they can lean on. So C4foundation.org is a phenomenal organization that I'm involved with.

And, uh, if you want to check it out, there's some really cool videos on the website.

Jason: [00:35:19] Awesome. Well, everybody go there. If you guys enjoyed this episode and you want to support the great cause that they do, please go there. That'd be great. Thanks Nick. For everything that you've done and you're doing currently and giving us your most valuable asset your time. And if you guys liked this episode, make sure you guys subscribe.

Make sure you guys give it a good rating. And until next time have a Swenk day.

Iris Shoor is the founder and CEO of Oribi, a web analytics tool. After two successful startups, she is growing her third startup. Oribi, an AI-based web analytics tool dedicated to making analytics easy for everyone, without the help from analysts and developers. (And, no code needed!) Iris is passionate about simple products, creative marketing, great UX, building a unique culture, and most of all—people. She's on the show talking about how she helps her team aspire to reach their goals with personal development. She also shares how your digital agency can show clients success on their funnels and campaigns by using a new analytics tool.

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3 Golden Nuggets

1. The best way to inspire your team is by understanding their personal needs for professional development. Understand their career goals and meet them there to encourage growth. Perks like free food and amenities are nice, ultimately not what retains really great team members.
2. Clients don't benefit from reports on their funnels and campaigns. They need to understand where the customers are coming from and why. This helps your clients
3. It's important to set goals with your clients for what success looks like, then measure and benchmark results throughout so clients understand the value you're bringing to the table.

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Show Transcripts

Jason: [00:00:00] On this episode, I talk with an amazing entrepreneur that's in her third business. She's a rockstar. She talks about personal development of your employees, how to keep them. But most importantly, we talk about how to prove your value. To your clients, so you can actually charge more. I think all of us need to do that. We're always constantly wondering how do we prove our value to our clients? Well, this is the episode for you and it will prove your worth. Hey, Iris. Welcome to the show.

Iris: [00:00:40] Hey Jason.

Jason: [00:00:41] I'm excited to have you on and, so tell us who you are and what do you do? Iris:: [00:00:46] Okay. So I'm CEO for Oribi. I'm a serial entrepreneur. This is my third startup for the other two companies that have been leading the product and marketing. Um, I love marketing and I was always amazed that with how difficult it is to measure marketing. And that's why I started the Oribi and we raised 27 million dollars today. And worked with thousands of customers around the world. And we were doing marketing under the tech set, hopefully, better than other tools.

Jason: [00:01:19] Oh, it's awesome. Yeah. Definitely check out the tool and it was very cool. But before we get into the tool, I wanted to ask you because a lot of agency owners, obviously everyone listening, we're hiring people, we're always hiring people. And I read a blog post that you had on your blog. And I was like, Oh, that's interesting. Tell us a little bit about, you know, just giving people pizza and feeding them is not really what will keep them.

Iris: [00:01:43] Yeah. I feel it's something like I find that baby ironic about this is that we want to hire the best people, the smartest vehicles, the most innovative people and treat them like a small children. And you need to be very cautious with them and you need to give them beer and pizza. And do you want the smartest people? And they usually want to, to lead interesting innovations, they want to grow. They want to learn new things. And for some reason, most of the work environment are mostly about just conquering people and their employees. And it's something that you really trying to do at Oribi, is to focus more on the personal development and giving them more independence. And. The way I see my role as a manager is to really let people shine. And to find their unique voice and to help them do it rather than having like lots of Ben and Jerry's and the kitchen. So, yeah, that's how I see it.

Jason: [00:02:48] Yeah. For many years, you know, I thought it was like, Hey, you know, we'll, we'll, we'll bring in lines, you know, like the Googles of the world, right? Like, especially that one movie of the internship with Vince Vaughn and Owen Wilson right there, like I can have five bananas it's free. And I think. That will draw in the wrong people. Sometimes it won't keep them.

Iris: [00:03:10] Yeah. Also we can like, um, it's all standard. So it's not that you have like a free pizza and ice cream and everybody will stay because of it. So, yeah, I agree with like, we have nice food over here, but this is not the main thing that we do. And they see that people are looking for something more personal and more deep.

Jason: [00:03:32] Yup. Let's talk about a little bit about personal development, right? Since we're on the topic of keeping our employees, right? Like we're attracting the right ones. How do you guys help out with personal development? Because I feel, you know, when people come in, if you're just expecting them just to do their job, right. They're going to be like, okay, like, they're going to be excited for a little while. Like I remember when I sold my agency, I was very motivated. To help out with the new company. And then when the dream squashers came in and started, you know, squashing our dreams, I started getting de-motivated and I was an, A- player. And I literally went to like an F- player. I'm like, you know, you better sell this company or I'm going to be the worst employee ever. And I find a lot of people are like that. So what's some things that you can help out employees with on personal development?

Iris: [00:04:24] Yeah. So, so that's a very interesting question. It seems like for me, the main thing that I benefit from being a certain type of entrepreneur and going fast was a rollercoaster every day is that I feel that it really challenged me with, learning new stuff all the time, inventing staff being creative, and they really feel that a huge part of my personal development is, me being forced to learning, uh, sales and marketing and different types of marketing and then managing and firing people. And I really wanted to give this experience to my employees. So instead of thinking of it as a funnel for rollercoaster also, it's something that they can step up using this platform. And an interesting story is that when it started at Oribi a few years ago, we actually had the budget for each employee for personal development. And I asked each one of them, what do you want to work on? If it's like a writing, public speaking, learning how to design. And then I have a list of like 50 things that they want to learn. And I was amazed to see that like half of their flow is new, what they want to work on, but we didn't have a clue. So they said, okay, so as a developer and not interested in public speaking or writing or anything else. So funny that they did learn is that most people don't really understand what they want to work on, but they do want the encouragement and the platform. When something arrives to, to really go in-depth . So tell me to do this change, how this program and receive the results have been really worked out well. And today it's more about working with employees on their personal challenges. Yes. Within the professional environment, what do they find challenging? How do they want to work on it? And sometimes we, we do help with them with top coaching. Is there internal or external? And, but the main thing is just about seeing them. Like for me, it's about things that unique voice of each one of the employees, and really try to encourage them to speak in this voice rather than being part of the company and where we are within the same box.

Jason: [00:06:34] Awesome. Great. Let's kind of change, focus. And let's talk about, because I know a lot of agencies because I chat with them all day long. A lot of times they have a hard time showing their clients results. And I think that's, if you look at it like a stoplight, that's a red light. That's something that you really need to work on because if you can't show your clients results, then they don't know the value, which means you're going to lose them. And you're just literally trying to hold onto them rather than going. This is what's working. This is not what's working. So talk to me a little bit about how did you come up with the current company now of really making it very easy for agencies to see what's currently working. Like, you know, when I was going through the tool and going through the funnel, I was like, that's pretty cool. Like, I could literally go, hey, here's the starting page and here's the page I want them to get to. What's my percentage and all that. So talk a little bit about that.

Iris: [00:07:34] Yeah. So, yeah, I do agree. This is like the main challenge. So today about 30% of our customers are agencies and probably most of the other 70% of the customers are working with agencies. So we hear those from agencies that they're unable to communicate their amazing work to the customers. And we also hear a lot from customers of agencies. If they're, they don't trust the agency, they don't really understand what they're doing and in my opinion, the main, the main challenge is how big can the agency go ? Cause something that happens a lot is agencies want to deliver the best results, but in many cases, they really stay up the funnel. So they drive traffic or they drive sign-ups and they're sure they're doing like amazing work. That's e-commerce show up or the companies that don't see an increase in sales. And the immediate result is a distrust. And they don't understand what they're doing. And they said it's the key thing for, for both parties to work well together, to understand which results they're measuring. And in most cases, it will be the sales-qualified leads. And in most cases, it's not very easy to track it. So the dimension that we're doing it really different things than other tools. It's creating a very simple solution. For defining all the different events. So instead of using code, you can easily understand what is the qualifying lead, how many people requested a demo? How many of them paid later? How many of them churn? How many of those approaches, which product, how many of them returned? And they say that once the agency can then create a high-level picture and can go into the entire funnel, the entire flow, understand all the different metrics. The communication is much better. They can understand what's working well. Does there, like an example I can give you is like two years ago where I was working with an agency and they manage my Facebook ads, I've been on maternity leave. So I haven't used the results for like months. And they told me it's doing amazingly well. They managed to reduce the cost by 50%. Then I entered the numbers and I saw that the sign-ups are actually. The cost per signup is much lower but that, hardly no one converts and it's so that they use like ads of like kittens. Everybody clicks sign up it very simple, but nobody really converted. And if they could have seen like the entire funnel easily to understand what's converting, who isn't, and compare it with other time periods, they would have been able to understand what they're doing wrong. So it's mostly about creating like a very solid ground for communication and for seeing all the important KPIs.

Jason: [00:10:23] Yeah. I totally agree with you. It's you know, if I was an agency right now, You know, a lot of times you need to test out the waters with your prospects. And I remember this and I see this all the time. I would take on the wrong clients and the client would tell me one thing. They'd be like, oh, we're driving, you know, this much traffic and we're converting at this. Like, we can get them to this page. They're going to convert. And if it was me, what I would do now, And I guess you can sort of do it through Google tag manager, but that's very, it's kind of like, you have to be a mad scientist. I feel like they'll make that work. Uh, like I don't understand. I'm like, wow. Like I throw up in my hands, but I haven't been in the weeds in a while, but like, if you could set up the tracking and the measuring ahead of time and you do like a test project with the client, like don't even do anything other than just set up analytic tracking and the dashboard and then go back to them and go, here's our recommendation based on the past 30 days, then I think you could blow your competition out of the water. You both probably have a lot happier clients, because you're only taking on the right ones rather than taking on the living, breathing ones for now. Right. There'll be dead later.

Iris: [00:11:44] Yeah, definitely. So yeah, I really like setting up the goals and mutual goals is super important and how to measure them. And now to see that they feel that it's doing this injustice for both parties is attribution and which became much more challenging from one year to another. And then in many cases like the agency and things, they're doing amazing work, how are they in the conversions, the agencies, so that, okay, everybody we're exposed to your brand from Facebook ads and, that they both met her via direct as a company says that the hard content in convert and coming from Facebook ads over here as well, I've seen that, um, there's many companies or agencies. They try to really like try to attribute to every single conversion it's really, really hard today. So, and when you facing the numbers coming from Facebook and Google, it's becoming even more challenging. So it's more about understanding the trends. If you're doing like a massive change, even if you can attribute everything, you can see how impacted, if you're working with different channels, you can understand the correlation between them.

Jason: [00:12:56] Yeah. Tell me a little bit more about like, when someone can dive deeper into the analytics and amazes me too, or maybe it's just because it's been complex up until this point with really. Kind of diving into the analytics, like why do you feel that more agencies don't really dive into that to really understand it, to deliver the best value? Because I truly believe that people want to deliver their best stuff, but sometimes they just, they don't.

Iris: [00:13:26] Yeah, I think it's mainly because it's a, it's a lot of work.. And as I told you before, like the, the main goal for me with Oribi is to help companies answer is the very trivial questions in a simple way. So it always amaze me that I try to answer questions, like where do my best customers come from and how is campaigns really doing. So the other, like exactly the same question that every company asks and today it's still lots of work. So you need developers to define events and every time it changed the website, you need to change it into maintaining and, um, So I seen it today. It's mostly about if the process is pretty complex, we need developers, as it takes time. I don't believe it's because people don't want to see the full picture or the people don't want to be data-driven. I say that today, something that we really see that even marketers, that they're not really into numbers and they love writing content and be more on the creative side, they really want to understand what is the impact of the work and to measure it and to understand what to do home.

Jason: [00:14:38] So tell us a little bit more about why people need to check this tool out? Cause I checked it out. It was really pretty amazing. I was like, Oh, I didn't know I needed to change this and that. And it gave me some insights that weren't available to me before.

Iris: [00:14:55] Yeah. So today, I guess it's most of the listeners are using Google analytics. It's always fascinated me that with Google analytics, we choose the market and there are other like very high end tools, that are very, very extensive require local integrations. And you can find some tools that are more around like max or just like landing pages, but there isn't like a good solution for marketing. And what they're doing at Oribi is creating marketing analytics that doesn't require developers, so he can define all the events without using code. You can do it yourself. You can get to more interesting events that we can create different rules for different rules, and then you can easily create finance and correlations and to analyze a user behavior and to do everything yourself, it's very simple. And also to export this data, to Facebook ads or to Google ads and to email automation, so you can create better audiences. And yeah, our main goal is to really give the power to the marketing team. And two they're very dependent on developers. If you're a part of a small company, usually we don't have developers. If you're part of a larger company, usually you need to wait like two months until they have time to, and the new event or, or change something. And is it for me, like the inspiration or company, like Shopify for where you can build your own e-commerce store, to change it, and to do the same for, analytics.

Jason: [00:16:32] Awesome. Is there a special offer that you have for our audience listening in if they want to check you guys out, which I highly recommend everyone go do.

Iris: [00:16:41] Yeah, definitely. So can enter Oribi.io then sign up for the free trial. The installation is super simple. If you're using like Wordpress or Shopify, it's just plug-in. If not, you can edit scripts, you can enjoy a free trial. When you decide to purchase Oribi, you can enjoy a 20% off discount for the first three months. And just write us on chat or email that you arrived via this podcast, and we'll be happy to provide a discount.

Jason: [00:17:08] Awesome. Well, great. Well, everyone go check that out. Iris, is there anything I did not ask you that you think would benefit the audience?

Iris: [00:17:15] I would say that something that I find pretty amazing is that most people will put tons of time in creating like the best content and videos and a stunning website. And we'll hardly measure it.. So I think there is much to do with like funnel optimization and website optimization. Okay. And let's say for example, that you invest a lot in writing content for SEO and getting direct traffic, and you probably can find out with two weeks of fare, changing the website, making some AB tests and changing the messaging and the call to action. You will be able to increase the conversion rate by 70%, by 50%. So I would say that most people's they're really into the content itself and the efforts themselves. And don't put enough time in optimizing the funnel, like the conversion. So there are a lot of low-hanging fruits over there and lots of opportunities to get you to great results.

Jason: [00:18:19] Awesome. Well, Iris, thanks so much for coming on the show and everybody listening. If you guys want to check out Oribi, go to Oribi.io and check it out, do the free trial. And then, uh, if you guys want to take it on, uh, even more, make sure you reach out to them and say, Hey, I heard of you guys from the Smart Agency Master Class, and they'll give you 20% off for the first three months. And, uh, until next time have a Swenk day. Thanks, Iris. Thank you.

Want to work with big brands? Curious how other agencies get massive opportunities? Wonder how you can find top talent to take your agency to the next level? Amazing opportunities might be right in front of you and you don't even know it.

In this episode, we'll cover:

• How to get opportunities to work with big brands.
• 3 Strategies to help you win more agency business.
• 2 Tips for hiring agency team members to help scale.

In this episode, I had the opportunity to chat with Colin Moffat, co-founder of Artemis Ward the branding agency he started with a former colleague. The two met while working for a big agency. However, six years ago, they decided to start their own agency after seeing a lot of cool work going to agencies smaller than theirs. Colin is on the show to talk about strategies that have gotten Artemis Ward opportunities to work with big brands

How to Get Opportunities With Big Brands

Colin says great business development effort comes down to relationships. Strong relationships are the key to success, so don't take any of your relationships for granted. Always be cultivating and maintaining relationships.

What kind of relationships can help grow your agency? All of them! Current clients, former colleagues; remember no one stays where they are forever. Keep up with people and be cool to them. Getting a foot in the door with big brands is about having the right relationship and doing good work every single time.

Don't Keep Your Head Down Too Long

As a small and new agency, Colin says they were dedicated to the work but kept their heads down and grinded away at it. Most people do this thinking the hustle will eventually pay off. But Colin says it wasn't until they lifted their heads that ideal clients started to really take notice.

People may know you and like you but they aren't thinking of you every day. Sometimes you have to pick up your head and make sure you're getting noticed. People may think you're great but you're not going to be top of mind all the time.

Artemis Ward engaged prospects with an email newsletter, social media and putting efforts into their own marketing. While there isn't an immediate payoff this creates opportunities down the road. Colin's advice: showcase the work, be helpful, and show the world what you can do.

3 Strategies To Help You Win More Agency Business

1. Connect others. When you connect two people within your network, without anything to gain for yourself, you build trust and goodwill. Help others out and they'll remember what you did for them. In return, they'll want to connect you with others too.
2. Low hanging fruit. As a rule, I tell my clients to go through a low-hanging fruit exercise every 90 days. Your low-hanging fruit could be old clients, old prospects, missed opportunities. Re-engage with them in a strategic way. Don't simply check-in, but approach them with a plan on how you can help them now.
3. Stay present. Spend some time scrolling your LinkedIn to see where people are and what they're up to. Out of sight, out of mind. So in order to stay top of mind, interact on social media and build goodwill. Results won't be immediate but you never know what's in store 6-months or 6-years down the road.

2 Tips for Hiring Agency Team Members to Help Scale

Artemis Ward makes every effort to stay small and nimble. Therefore, it's important to have really good people on your agency team in order to scale. Colin says he hire for culture fit, keeping two criteria in mind:

1. Smart and adaptable. They want agency team members who can stay fluid. Some people need more structure and that's OK but not a fit for the agency. Colin hires people who can be flexible and embrace unpredictability.

2. Diverse background and experiences. They don't just hire the "typical agency person" or someone with tons of agency experience. Colin wants team members with different perspectives. When you're solving unique problems you need a team that is unique.

Looking for a Content Creation Solution?

Verblio has been a long-time supporter of the Smart Agency Masterclass and a trusted vendor we've been using for over two years. They are an amazing content creation solution designed specifically for agencies; their writers can help with all your content creation needs across a variety of industries.

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Have you ever struggled with upselling? Would you like to expand revenue from your current accounts? Want to get your team more involved in upselling? All it takes is some strategy and a change of mindset to reap the benefits of upsell opportunities.

In this episode, we'll cover:

• #1 worst agency sales mistake.
• What works for digital agency upselling?
• 2 ways to make upselling less salesy.
• Are you selling your agency short?
• How to train your agency team to upsell.

Today I chatted with Daniel Hodge, Head of the Wix Partners. Danny and his team build relationships with digital marketing agencies. Over the years, he has seen and heard it all from digital agencies. Everything from what is work to what doesn't plus all the good and bad strategies for growing digital agency business. He's sharing some great ways you can improve your upsell strategies right away.

#1 Worst Agency Sales Mistake

There's a ton of experts out there sharing best practices, but Danny said he's actually seen a lot of "worst practices." The top among them is the mistake of making it impossible for site visitors to get in touch.

The site design might be amazing, but oftentimes the call to action is lacking. Either it's unclear, buried, or simply non-existent. Sure, the big agencies can get away without a call-to-action because they already have a reputation.

However, medium and smaller agencies tend to model them even though what works one doesn't necessarily work for others.

What Works for Digital Agency Upselling?

Danny says he is seeing agencies the size of 5-50 employees growing fast over the last year or so. He believes this is largely due to their ability to be flexible and work quickly during the pandemic when a lot of businesses need to increase or improve their digital presence.

But, how can you take existing clients and turn them into more revenue? It all starts with not disguising the upsell but understanding the opportunity from day one. The best way to do this is to ask questions like:

• What are their business needs?
• What will a digital presence do for them?
• How can we enhance their digital presence to meet their business goals?

When you understand early on, you can put together a plan with 3, 6, and 9-month check-ins. Then look at the client's business with an eye to the future. So when you make a recommendation it doesn't sound or feel like an upsell. It's simply executing another part of a long-term plan in order to meet their goals.

Then position it like: If we're successful with "this", then you might need "that". Then it's just a natural next step instead of an upsell.

2 Ways to Make Upselling Less Salesy

1. Align on what success looks like. What does a successful engagement look like for the client 6 months down the road? Have them define success and it gives you an idea of how realistic they are. (Plus time to reel them in if needed!)
2. Be proactive rather than reactive. Agencies usually provide dashboards and reporting all the time. But instead of just reporting activity, start making recommendations on what could make the results even better.

Are You Selling Your Agency Short?

The key to strategic upsells is positioning your agency as an advisor. But, Danny believes agencies are selling themselves short. Clients end up viewing them as a commodity instead of an authority. Agencies often market themselves as being good at web design, development, and SEO. But they leave out the part where they can also remarketing, lead generation, and much more.

You don't have to be a full-service agency. However, you can explore different tools and technologies that may help you broaden the success of your service offering.

How To Get Your Agency Team to Upsell

It's very common that the agency team is resistant to upselling to clients. They feel weird or awkward getting salesy. And let's be honest, Project Managers are finishers or completers. They like to check items off their 'to do' list. They definitely don't want to add more tasks. So it is against their nature to bring on more by suggesting an upsell. They are really good at execution but usually not so good at generating more work or upselling.

Danny says you have to make upselling more about client services and less about "selling". Your PMs might be resistant to make a sale, but when you reposition it as enhancing client success they may be more receptive.

Another way to get team buy-in is to get them aligned with your agency goals. If they believe an upsell just puts more money in the agency owner's pocket they aren't motivated. But if you have a bigger picture goal about ways your agency can impact the industry your team will care more about sales successes. Agency Partner Program wix.com/partners

Want to Learn More About Partnering with Agencies?

When you join forces with Wix agency partners, you'll unlock a community of agency partners that can help you grow and scale your agency faster than ever.

The Wix Partner Program is ideal for freelancers and digital agencies that design and develop websites for their clients. Check out Wix.com/Partners to learn more and become a member of the community for free.

Are you still not convinced your agency needs a niche? Are you tired of spending your time on free consultations that don't convert? Converting a lead into revenue for your agency requires careful planning. If you want to convert and retain more clients, beware of these common mistakes.

In this episode, we'll cover:

• 5 most common lead generation mistakes.
• Overcoming lead generation mistakes for digital agencies.

I talked with Bob Sparkins, Sales and Marketing Manager for Leadpages. Known as "Bob the Teacher," he provides instruction to agency sales teams through podcasts and webinars. Bob has a ton to share about the biggest mistakes he sees agencies make when it comes to lead generation.

1. Failing to Specialize

If you've heard it once, you've heard it a thousand times: Find a niche for your agency. Bob says many new agencies make the mistake of believing they can do all things for all people. However, Bob says beyond the benefit of doing work you are passionate about, specializing in one industry or service offering will actually help increase revenue and attract more clients. Why? Because most clients don't come to your website looking at the big picture of all the solutions you provide. They come looking to solve a single problem with their marketing plan. If you specialize in solving that sort of problem, then you have a foot in the door to provide additional solutions to the client in the future.

2. Overpricing or Underpricing Your Services

Bob says determining a fair price for the services provided is a common problem for most agencies. Some agencies underprice their services in the hopes of attracting a client looking for a deal. While others set a higher price without having built the trust and proving the service is worth the investment. The problem with underpricing your services is you're not communicating the value of your team's skill set. Overpricing can lead to making promises you can't keep and could cost you the client.

3. Offering a Free Consultation

Bob encourages agencies to remove the free consultation from their website. "A person off the street should not be able to stumble on your website and get access to your calendar," Bob explains. The problem with free consultations is they only have about a 30 percent conversion rate. What this means is when you provide free consultations for ten people, only three of those people will return for more information. That equals a lot of time spent on conversations where the prospect is more likely to say no than to say yes.

4. Ineffective Lead Magnets

Instead of providing free consultations, Bob encourages agencies to convert leads to clients through the use of lead magnets. An effective lead magnet is one that considers the context of why the lead is on the web in the first place. Providing a short video or article with information on how to accomplish a task, along with a call to action for more information, is much more effective than simply advertising your services in the traditional way.

"Teach people the steps that are involved in doing what you do," Bob says. But, also show them that the task demands a level of knowledge and expertise that you can provide.

5. Holding Your Clients Hostage With Their Website

One mistake Bob sees agencies often make after they've worked with clients is holding deliverables hostage. This is particularly true with creative and design agencies. They keep all the information and work under lock and key. If the client leaves, they lose the work.

"You need to evaluate if that is really in service to your client," Bob says. He notes allowing a client who wants to leave access to the work they paid for and to exit with a positive vibe provides a better chance of getting a good referral. Additionally, you leave the door open if the client wishes to return.

Looking for a Content Creation Solution?

Verblio has been a long-time supporter of the Smart Agency Masterclass and a trusted vendor we've been using for over two years. They are an amazing content creation solution designed specifically for agencies; their writers can help with all your content creation needs across a variety of industries.

If you're interested in trying Verblio for yourself check out Verblio.com/smartagency for 50% off your first month of content.

The Agency Visionary and Integrator

Are you a visionary or an integrator? How do you know, and how do you use it to grow your agency? Check yourself on these: Got big goals for your agency but no idea how to get there? Spending too much time on the day-to-day operations when you would rather be leading? The world is filled with visionaries and integrators. With effort and understanding, you can harness the strength of both to grow your marketing agency.

In this episode, we'll cover:

• What is the difference between a visionary and an integrator?
• 5 rules between an agency visionary and an integrator.
• Finding the missing piece to your agency puzzle.

I talked to Mark Winters, co-author of the book, Rocket Fuel. Mark is an entrepreneur who has been directly involved in fourteen different businesses of varying sizes and industries throughout his life. He has started, sold, and even acquired businesses. During that time, Mark has learned the importance of having a visionary and an integrator in your agency leadership and how the two can work better together.

What Is the Difference Between a Visionary and an Integrator?

Many agency owners are visionaries. Visionaries are individuals with big dreams and goals. They're the ones that can look at the big picture and determine where the agency should be in the next five years. However, visionaries often struggle with the day-to-day details of enacting a plan to reach their goals. That's where an integrator comes in.

Integrators are individuals capable of focusing on the details of operations of your agency right now. They are usually the general manager or operations manager tasked with building the road between where the agency is now and where the visionary owner wants to be.

Can an Agency Visionary and an Integrator Work Together?

When they work together, the visionary and the integrator offer a complete management package. One minds the overall mission while the other ensures success of individual tasks. However, these two personality types are so different they often have a difficult time working together. In his book, Mark discusses the five rules between a visionary and an integrator. The rules can help the two accomplish what needs to be done for the agency without driving each other crazy.

5 Rules Between a Visionary and Integrator

1. Get on the same page. Do what you need to do to stay in alignment with the other half of your visionary/integrator coin. If you need to fight it out, do so in a back room and then come together for your team.
2. No end-runs. If the integrator answers to the visionary and the rest of the team answer to the integrator, that is the end of the line. The visionary should not allow team members to disrespect the chain of command.
3. The integrator is the tie-breaker. If there is a disagreement within the organization, the integrator has the ground-level view and is in a better position to consider the plan and make a decision.
4. Rules for owner-employees. Many times the visionary owner also does work as an employee. However, problems arise when this owner-employee decides the rules don't apply. As an owner of an agency, Mark believes you really only have two rights. First, the right to your share of the profits. Next, the right to have your voice heard on major decisions. At any other time, if you're acting as an employee, you should be the most diligent and devoted employee ever.
5. Maintain mutual respect. Many visionary-integrator business relationships fail because one or both parties fail to devote the time and attention to making it work. The visionary can't treat the integrator like a lackey and have success. Ideally, the two individuals will have an eyeball-to-eyeball relationship as equals.

Finding the Missing Piece to Your Agency Puzzle

So how do you find the right piece to the puzzle? Mark says it is really a three-piece puzzle. You need to understand your business. Then you need the insight to know your strengths and skills. And finally, you need to identify the gaps in your team structure. Only then can you find the right person to close those gaps.

Caution: You might not understand this person. The way they think and approach problems will be different than yours. That's the point! And, all of that is less important than the ability for you and this person to work together. The goal is to use your individual superpowers to build the best agency possible.

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Do you feel like you are working with tunnel vision? Are you only focusing on one small aspect of the agency? Are you wondering which direction to take your agency? Do you spend too much time on the wrong projects? Time moves quickly in the agency world, and success often rides on your agency continually evolving; otherwise, it could die.

In this episode, we'll cover:

• 3 benefits of surrounding yourself within a niche.
• Finding passion in your niche.
• Why staying the same is an agency's kiss of death.

I spoke with Scott Addison Clay, the Founder, and CEO of Addison Interactive, a digital marketing agency that works with the entertainment industry. The 10-year-old agency is the culmination of a number of Scott's passions. However, along the way to finding these passions, Scott built the interactive department at another agency from two people to thirty. He's here to offer some tips on how to evolve your agency from a job into a passion.

3 Benefits of Surrounding Yourself Within a Niche

Building a team from two people to thirty in a relatively short period of time seems like a difficult feat. How do you create the need to grow so fast? Scott says one of the biggest reasons the agency grew so quickly was because they were in a building full of others in the entertainment industry. Surrounding yourself with others in your niche provides benefits such as:

1. A professional network that can increase opportunities and help get the word out about your agency.
2. Fresh ideas that can prevent you from getting tunnel vision during a project.
3. Resources and knowledge that can help you provide a new service for your clients.

Finding Passion in Your Niche

Many years ago, a news producer gave Scott a piece of advice he has always remembered: Pick something -- anything -- and just do that thing. However, passion is not simply about having a goal. It is also about the journey you take to get to the goal. For Scott, passion evolved from a love of entertainment and a curiosity about how things work. From there, he went to building an agency that started with website building and evolved to offering services like video editing and social media content for the entertainment industry.

While it is important to choose a niche reflecting your passion, it's also important to remember chasing those passions is often a long-term commitment. It usually involves doing jobs you're not crazy about in order to grow your agency.

Why Staying the Same Is an Agency's Kiss of Death

When Scott started Addison Interactive a decade ago, his first projects involved building websites. Then he started learning to do content for Tumblr. "We just kept figuring things out and then staffing for those things."

In order to grow your agency, Scott says, you have to always be evolving. This is particularly true with digital marketing, where technology and trends are changing rapidly. Evolution includes a lot of listening, both to clients about what they need as well as experts in the industry you serve. It also includes the ability and willingness to adapt. "The kiss of death is saying, 'We've always done it that way,'" Scott explains.

Through the Agency Playbook, Scott learned being open to possibilities and expanding involves not just asking the question: What do you want to do? It also involves asking yourself what you don't want to do. While there are many reasons for this, perhaps the best reason of all is the point where Scott now is. It's the point where you can start turning down small jobs you don't want because they don't fit into your goals.

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Is your team struggling to keep up with client communication? Having a hard time managing all parts of agency projects? Many agencies need project management dedicated to communication and details. How do you know when or if your agency needs a project manager? How can you find a great project manager? Having a project manager is crucial for some agencies and absolutely unnecessary for others. The challenge is determining your agency's need in order to grow successfully.

In this episode, we'll cover:

• When should your agency use a project manager?
• When project management isn't necessary.
• Finding the right project manager.

I talked with Bea Bonte, Co-owner of Hook Agency, a digital agency that provides services for small to mid-sized businesses in the construction industry. In less than three years, the agency has grown to a team of 12. Project management is part of Bea's job description. Hook also has a project manager for its website design team. Bea says it has been a learning process determining what types of services need project management and which don't.

When Should Your Agency Use a Project Manager?

Project management is a frequent topic of debate among agency owners, with strong opinions on both sides. However, Bea says the discussion really shouldn't be as much about whether you do or don't need a project manager. It comes down to the types of jobs where project management helps deliver the service more efficiently. For example, Hook uses a project manager for website design because it requires extensive information-gathering with the client. A project manager handles communication while the design team is busy on creative work. Large projects involving the output of different parts of your team are the type for project management. In those cases, the manager is able to coordinate the different aspects of the work.

While creative projects often need a project manager, Bea believes in letting her team communicate directly with the client as needed. If a designer has a specific question for the client, it does not make sense to run the question through an extra layer.

When Project Management Isn't Necessary

For small agencies and agencies that offer very specific services, it is often not necessary to have a project manager. For example, Hook's SEO team requires specific information from the client and without running through a project manager. The rule of thumb Hook uses in determining whether project management is necessary is whether the communication required will take too much time away from the work they were hired to do. If so, then it's time to hire a project manager. However, if there are instances where involving a project manager slows down production and delivery.

Finding the Right Project Manager

If you decide your agency needs a project manager, how do you go about hiring one? Bea says Hook places a higher priority on tenacity than on a heavy resume. She and her husband took a risk on an individual at the start of their agency who was so passionate about wanting to work for a marketing agency he was willing to work for free. He is now transitioning from the agency's SEO lead to the General Manager.

One of the most important things to remember when hiring a project manager or adding other new members to your team is finding a match to culture and values. New skills can be acquired, but finding someone whose goals and work style match those of your agency is a bigger task.

Are you looking for a unique web design tool?

Editor X is a platform built specifically for designers, where you can create complex sites while feeling like you're working on a visual design software. Picture stepping into a wide workspace where you get total CSS control powered by smooth drag and drop. Editor X's canvas is so intuitive it feels like a physical space where you can move things around as you want.

It's a platform where every tiny detail has been considered so you can let your creativity run wild and build your most creative sites yet. I can describe it to you all day but you should really go see it for yourself, at EditorX.com—and discover the new standard in web design.