Sounds of SAND

By Science and Nonduality

Sounds of SAND invites listeners into a contemplative journey through the infinite cycles of existence - from its raw beauty to its deepest mysteries, from its intricate complexity to its profound won... more

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Number 1: Nuance of Wonder: Joan Tollifson
Joan Tollifson returns to the podcast three years after her first conversation. We talk about her June essay Two Inseparable Truths, on the relative and the absolute and the trouble with getting stuck in either one. Along the way: the silence of many nondual teachers in a dark time, what cancer and an aging body insist on that philosophy cannot, and why "I don't know" may be the answer closest to truth. She closes by reading her essay 'Radiant Light in Dark Times' in full. Topics 00:00 Introduction 00:04 From political movements to the Zen Center 00:06 Politics on Substack, and what bypassing looks like 00:11 Two inseparable truths: stuck in the relative, stuck in the absolute 00:19 Why she refuses final conclusions 00:21 Old age, sickness and death as visceral teaching 00:25 Cancer and what the body insists on 00:28 Zooming out and zooming in: two ways through pain 00:33 Why she has never used AI for writing 00:39 Siri, and what a machine can evoke 00:46 Finding the divine in a construction machine 00:49 Joan reads Radiant Light in Dark Times Joan Tollifson Joan Tollifson has been writing and talking about nonduality for decades, with roots in Zen and Advaita and a background that also includes radical nonduality, contemplative inquiry, addiction recovery, martial arts, somatic work, and visual arts. Before all of that came years of political organizing: the feminist movement, gay and lesbian liberation, disability rights, the anti-imperialist left, and Central America solidarity work. Born without her right hand and forearm, she wrote about it in her first book, Bare-Bones Meditation. She is 78 and lives in southern Oregon. She has been a frequent speaker at SAND gatherings over the years. joantollifson.com Right Now, Just As It Is on Substack Her list of recommended books The two essays discussed Two Inseparable Truths, June 20, 2026. The essay that prompted this conversation. Radiant Light in Dark Times, August 12, 2026. Read in full at the end of the episode. Her books Bare-Bones Meditation: Waking Up from the Story of My Life Awake in the Heartland: The Ecstasy of What Is Painting the Sidewalk with Water: Talks and Dialogues about Nonduality Nothing to Grasp Death: The End of Self-Improvement Also in the conversation Douglas Harding, whose approach to headlessness Joan cites as an example of what she calls zooming out. Father Arthur Polen, the Catholic monk whose painting Radiant Light, made after 9/11, hangs on her wall and gives the closing essay its title. Huang Po, quoted in the essay: it is that which you see before you, begin to reason about it and you at once fall into error. SAND's AI series, referenced in the discussion of artificial intelligence, including the conversation with Tristan Harris. Robert Moor's In Trees, the book about trees, family trees, and hierarchical trees that comes up near the end. His episode is here. Previously on Sounds of SAND Here Now Being: Joan Tollifson, the first conversation, three years ago Support the show Sounds of SAND is listener supported. Become a SAND member to support the podcast and everything else SAND makes.
September 17, 20261h 1min
Number 2: The Flow of Coherence: Cynthia Li
Dr. Cynthia Li joins us to talk about her new book, The Medicine of Flow. Trained as an internist, Cynthia developed an autoimmune condition and then chronic fatigue and dysautonomia, illnesses largely dismissed at the time as being in her head. Her own body pushed her out of the paradigm she was trained in and into functional medicine, qigong, and intuitive healing. A decade later, a second crisis took her back to housebound and taught her what all her effort hadn't: coherence, and what she calls embodied flow. We talk about surrender that isn't passivity, why nervous system regulation is only part of the picture, and how coherence moves between bodies. Guest Cynthia Li, MD, is a physician who moved from public health to integrative medicine and intuitive healing, with earlier work at Kaiser Permanente's HIV/AIDS group, San Francisco General Hospital, St. Anthony Clinic, and Doctors Without Borders in rural China. A certified qigong teacher and healer since 2014, she has served as faculty for Rachel Remen's Healer's Art program at UCSF, and her story appeared in Dr. Kelly Turner's Radical Remission documentary. She is the author of Brave New Medicine and The Medicine of Flow (May 2026). Timestamps 00:00 Introduction 00:01 From internist to patient: the first illness 00:05 Intuitive medicine, and learning to rule things in 00:07 The second health crisis and the turn to surrender 00:09 What coherence is, and why it isn't just relaxation 00:14 Too many apps: the body in incoherence 00:23 Breath, spiritus, and the nondual 00:27 Physics 101: why we are electromagnetic beings 00:31 Coherence in a time of polycrisis 00:34 Overlapping fields, and the living mandala 00:40 Why the collective comes sixth 00:47 Bamboo in the wind, and whether the future of medicine is ancient Books and practices The Medicine of Flow: Harmonizing Your Inner State for Effortless Healing (Reveal Press, May 2026) Brave New Medicine: A Doctor's Unconventional Path to Healing Her Autoimmune Illness (New Harbinger, 2019) Embodied Flow Methods, free guided audio and video for the practices in the book, including coherent breathing and a downloadable 30-day worksheet Find Cynthia cynthialimd.com Instagram LinkedIn Facebook Psychology Today Her New York Times piece on the pandemic, poverty, and homelessness Going deeper Awakin Call with Michael Lerner, July 2026, on The Medicine of Flow Her first Awakin Call, 2020, on healing from the first crisis HeartMath Institute, the heart coherence and HRV research referenced in the conversation Contact SAND [email protected] Support the mission of SAND and the production of this podcast by becoming a SAND Member
September 03, 20261h 4min
Number 3: The Dance of Exile & Settlement: Bayo Akomolafe
Full interview with Dr. Bayo Akomolafe, recorded by SAND founders Zaya and Maurizio Benazzo. Edited portions appear in The Eternal Song; this is the whole conversation. Bayo moves from his childhood in Lagos to the Orisha who wanted only to travel, from the psychologist's couch he calls too small a space for healing, to the nets slave ship captains strung along their hulls to stop people from jumping. Along the way: why decolonization isn't individual work, why wellness might be a net rather than a cure, what a monster does to a world that's stuck, and the story of a dried African lake whose dust still feeds the Amazon. Topics 00:00:00 — Introduction 00:12:00 — A recovering psychologist 00:18:30 — The plurality of healing 00:28:00 — The one world worldview 00:36:00 — Addiction, sleeplessness, and dreaming 00:40:30 — Decolonization, monsters, and the cracks 00:53:00 — Intergenerational trauma 00:57:00 — Wellness, and the nets on the slave ship 01:04:30 — Captivity is never total 01:08:00 — Arriving on shore 01:11:00 — Artificial intelligence 01:18:00 — The collapse of modernity, and dead bones Bayo Akomolafe Yoruba philosopher, psychologist, poet, and writer. Founder and Executive Director of The Emergence Network, host of the postactivist course series We Will Dance with Mountains, and inaugural Global Senior Fellow of UC Berkeley's Othering and Belonging Institute. He is a board member of Science and Nonduality. bayoakomolafe.net The Emergence Network These Wilds Beyond Our Fences: Letters to My Daughter on Humanity's Search for Home (North Atlantic Books, 2017) We Will Tell Our Own Story: The Lions of Africa Speak, with Molefi Kete Asante and Augustine Nwoye From SAND Liberation Psychology: Roots, Memory & Practice A nine-month journey with Dr. Pumla Gobodo-Madikizela, Dr. Jennifer Mullan, Dr. Samah Jabr, Dr. Eduardo Duran, Linda Thai, Dr. Daniel Foor, Dr. Bayo Akomolafe, Alnoor Ladha, and Dr. Lynn Murphy. Bayo teaches Module 8, The Cracks Are the Medicine: Fugitive Healing in a Broken System, with Staci Haines. The Eternal Song SAND's documentary series on indigenous cultures, in which Bayo appears. Contact SAND [email protected] Support the mission of SAND and the production of this podcast by becoming a SAND Member
August 27, 20261h 28min
Number 4: The Unbroken Thread: Pir Zia Inayat Khan
Pir Zia on the secret history of the world From a nondual perspective, aren't the world's great spiritual traditions expressions of a single living wisdom? In this intimate conversation, Pir Zia Inayat Khan explores the inspiration behind Tears from the Mother of the Sun, a sweeping mythic chronicle of sages, exiles, and revelations spanning continents and planes of existence. Drawing on sacred stories from Persia, India, Egypt and beyond, the book weaves the world's legends into a vision of humanity's shared spiritual inheritance. Together we discover the place of myth in a modern world, the imagination as a path of knowing, and the role of our deepest stories in restoring a sense of belonging to one another, to the Earth, and to the mystery that animates us all. Topics 00:00 Welcome 00:03 Growing up in a universalist lineage 00:06 Ferdowsi, Soroush, and the frame of the book 00:11 Why the world's traditions belong to one story 00:14 History as a living stream: the three worlds 00:16 The Mongols, violence, and unification 00:19 "I was a hidden treasure": the beginning of history 00:22 Syzygy, and the question of AI 00:29 Honoring the Earth inside our devices 00:34 Isis, Osiris, and the birth of music at Gaza 00:43 Grief, contraction, and the opening of the heart 00:49 Rabia, Noor Inayat Khan, and the green shoots Pir Zia Inayat Khan Pir Zia Inayat Khan, PhD, is a scholar of religion and teacher of Sufism in the universalist Sufi lineage of his grandfather, Hazrat Inayat Khan. He is president of the Inayatiyya and founder of Sulūk Academy, a school of Sufi contemplative study and practice. He divides his time between Richmond, Virginia and Suresnes, France. pirzia.org Inayatiyya Sulūk Academy The book Tears from the Mother of the Sun: A Secret History of the World, Inner Traditions, 2026, with full-color paintings by Amruta Patil Amruta Patil, writer, painter, and India's first female graphic novelist, author of Kari, Adi Parva, Sauptik, and Aranyaka Also by Pir Zia Immortality: A Traveler's Guide Mingled Waters: Sufism and the Mystical Unity of Religions Saracen Chivalry: Counsels on Valor, Generosity and the Mystical Quest Dream Flowers: The Collected Works of Noor Inayat Khan Caravan of Souls: An Introduction to the Sufi Path of Hazrat Inayat Khan (editor) Figures and ideas in the conversation Lineage Hazrat Inayat Khan (1882–1927), who brought universal Sufism to the West Pir Vilayat Inayat Khan, who convened interspiritual dialogues and conversations with modern science, including with David Bohm Noor Inayat Khan, storyteller, author of children's tales and retellings of the Jātaka tales, and SOE wireless operator in occupied France. Killed at Dachau in 1944. Her last word was liberté. Persia and the frame of the book Ferdowsi, author of the Shahnameh, who died in Tus believing his life's work had come to nothing Soroush, the tutelary daimon who narrates the book The Ishraqi or Illuminationist tradition Sufi teaching The Hadith Qudsi: I was a hidden treasure and I longed to be known, so I created the world that I might be known Rabia al-Adawiyya, who carried a torch to burn down paradise and water to quench the fires of hell, so that God would be loved for God's own sake Najm al-Din Kubra, killed on the battlefield during the Mongol invasion Qabz and bast, contraction and expansion Ar-Rahman, Ar-Rahim, and rahma as the action of the womb History, empire, and emanation Genghis Khan and the Palace of Myriad Peace at Karakorum Akbar and the interreligious debates at Fatehpur Sikri, under the policy of sulh-i-kul, peace with all Tahqiq, experiential knowing, as against taqlid, following what one has heard Avicenna and the three contemplations of emanation Syzygy, the alignment of beings into a molecule of spiritual work Isis and the birth of music The story of Isis and Osiris as told by Plutarch, in which Isis buries Osiris at Gaza and blesses a boy named Palestinos, who becomes the first musician Sirius, whose rising signals the Nile flood, understood as the tears of Isis Also mentioned Descending into Light: A Pilgrimage to the Center of the Earth, a seven-week series with Pir Zia and Yuz Ata, October 11 to November 22, 2026 Rumi & The Fire of Radical Love: A Path Through Global Rupture, a four-part SAND course with Omid Safi. Sessions on August 30 and September 6 still to come. The Eternal Song, SAND's collection of twelve films Support this gathering
August 20, 20261h 3min
Number 5: Arborescence: Robert Moor
Robert Moor is a journalist and essayist whose work has appeared in The New Yorker, Harper's, The Atlantic, Emergence, and The New York Times. His first book, On Trails, won the National Outdoor Book Award and the William Saroyan International Prize. He lives in Halfmoon Bay, British Columbia. His new book is 'In Trees'. Topics 00:00 Welcome, and the new SAND course 00:04 A tree is a verb, not a noun 00:06 Branching, brains, and why AI has no roots 00:13 Pruning, gnarling, and the beauty of wounds 00:16 The Bodhi tree at Bodh Gaya 00:19 From On Trails to In Trees 00:22 Tree thinking and the tree of contents 00:27 Intelligence without anthropomorphizing 00:34 Cedars, Haida Gwaii, and deep time 00:38 Branching futures, many apocalypses, and grief 00:47 Hierarchy, the rhizome, and the Korowai 00:52 Rootedness and relationality Robert Moor In Trees: An Exploration (Simon & Schuster, April 2026) On Trails: An Exploration Robert Moor at Hill Nadell Literary Agency Books mentioned Songs for Relinquishing the Earth by Jan Zwicky. Originally hand-sewn by the author on recycled stock and distributed by request; later won the Governor General's Award for Poetry. Between Earth and Sky: Our Intimate Connections to Trees by Nalini Nadkarni The Hidden Life of Trees by Peter Wohlleben Finding the Mother Tree by Suzanne Simard The Light Eaters by Zoë Schlanger Thus Spoke the Plant by Monica Gagliano The Secret Life of Trees by Colin Tudge, source of the "big plant with a stick up the middle" definition Indigenizing Philosophy through the Land by Brian Burkhart Sand Talk by Tyson Yunkaporta A Thousand Plateaus by Gilles Deleuze and Félix Guattari, source of the rhizome A Secular Age by Charles Taylor, source of the buffered and porous self “Ancient Green” by Robin Wall Kimmerer The Garden of Forking Paths by Jorge Luis Borges A Walk in the Woods by Bill Bryson People mentioned Patrick von Aderkas, tree biologist at the University of Victoria, who described a tree as "a growth form" Jeff Lichtman, neuroscientist and Dean of Science at Harvard Robert J. O'Hara, who coined the term "tree thinking" Umeek (Richard Atleo), Nuu-chah-nulth hereditary chief and philosopher, author of Tsawalk: A Nuu-chah-nulth Worldview Michael Pollan, on the distinction between sentience, intelligence, and consciousness John McPhee, on structural experimentation in nonfiction Stephen Tamatea King, the first known tree sitter, who climbed totara trees in New Zealand in the 1970s Joanna Macy, "there is no away to throw things to" Places and peoples Gwaii Haanas National Park Reserve, Haida Gwaii The Korowai of Papua, treehouse dwellers with almost no hierarchy Nuu-chah-nulth communities of Vancouver Island The Bodhi tree at Bodh Gaya, a Ficus religiosa replanted from the offspring of the original Lucy, the Australopithecus afarensis fossil in Ethiopia Purgatorius, the ground-dwelling ancestor of mammalian life From SAND Liberation Psychology: Roots, Memory, and Practice, the new nine-month course with Dr. Samah Jabr, Dr. Eduardo Duran, Linda Thai, Daniel Foor, Dr. Jennifer Mullan, and Dr. Bayo Akomolafe. Scholarships available for 20 to 30 percent of seats. Sila, a nonlinear documentary following Inuit women through 300 years of Danish colonialism, available to watch now The Eternal Song film series Previous episodes with Monica Gagliano and Tyson Yunkaporta Contact SAND [email protected] Support the mission of SAND and the production of this podcast by becoming a SAND Member
August 13, 202658min