Our guest today is Dr. Ken Forbus, the Walter P. Murphy Professor of Computer Science and a Professor of Education at Northwestern University.

Joining Dr. Ken Ford to co-host today’s interview is Dr. James Allen, who was IHMC’s associate director until he retired a few years ago. James is a founding fellow of the American Association for Artificial Intelligence and a perfect fit for today’s discussion with Dr. Forbus, who, like James, is an AI pioneer.  Back in 2022, James was named a fellow by the Association for Computational Linguistics, an organization that studies computational language processing, another field he helped pioneer.

Dr. Forbus also is a Fellow of the Association for the Advancement of Artificial Intelligence and was the inaugural winner of the Herbet A. Simon Prize for Advances in Cognitive Systems. He is well-known for his development of the Structure Mapping Engine. In artificial intelligence and cognitive science, the Structure Mapping Engine is a computer simulation of analogy and similarity comparisons that helped pave the way for computers to reason more like humans.

Show Notes:

[00:03:07] Ken opens the interview with Dr. Forbus by asking if it is true that he had an unusual hobby for a nerdy kid growing up.

[00:04:18] James mentions that Dr. Forbus’ family moved often when he was younger and asks how that affected him.

[00:05:18] Ken mentions that when Dr. Forbus was in high school, he filled his free time reading about psychology and cognition before eventually coming across some articles on AI. Ken asks Dr. Forbus to talk about this experience and what happened next.

[00:07:49] James asks Dr. Forbus if he remembers the first computer he owned.

[00:09:17] Ken asks Dr. Forbus if there was anything, other than its reputation, that led him to attend MIT.

[00:10:09] James mentions that for the past few decades, Dr. Forbus has been working on developing “human like” AI systems. While much of AI research and development has been focused on meeting the standard of the Turing test, James asks Dr. Forbus why he is not a fan of the Turing test.

[00:12:24] Ken mentions that Dr. Forbus received his Ph.D. from MIT in 1984, the same year that Apple released the first Macintosh, which was rolled out with a famous Super Bowl ad. This computer was the first successful mouse driven personal computer with a graphical interface. Ken asks Dr. Forbus what he remembers about that ad, and what his reaction to it was at the time.

[00:13:22] James mentions that 1984 was also the year that Dr. Forbus made his first splash in the AI world with his paper on qualitative process theory. James goes on to explain that at the time, qualitative reasoning regarding quantities was a major problem for AI. In his paper, Dr. Forbus proposed qualitative process theory as a representational framework for common sense physical reasoning, arguing that understanding common sense physical reasoning first required understanding of processes and their effects and limits. James asks Dr. Forbus to give an overview of this paper and its significance.

[00:18:10] Ken asks Dr. Forbus how it was that he ended up marrying one of his collaborators on the Structure Mapping Engine project, Dedre Gentner.

[00:19:14] James explains that Dedre’s Structure Mapping Theory explains how people understand and reason about relationships between different situations, which is central to human cognition. James asks Dr. Forbus how Dedre’s theory was foundational for the Structure Mapping Engine (SME).

[00:25:19] Ken mentions how SME has gone through a number of changes and improvements over the years, as documented in Dr. Forbus’ 2016 paper “Extending SME to handle large scale cognitive modeling.” Ken asks, as a cognitive model, what evidence Dr. Forbus has used to argue for the psychological and cognitive plausibility of SME.

[00:30:00] Ken explains that many AI systems rely on deep learning, which is a subset of machine learning, using multi-layered artificial neural networks to automatically learn and extrapolate data. Ken goes on to say that Dr. Forbus has pointed out that both people and SME are able to learn successfully with far less data than deep learning requires. Ken asks Dr. Forbus to expand on this.

[00:35:21] James mentions that Dr. Forbus has been working a lot over the past decade on companion cognitive architectures, which aim to reach human level AI, by creating software social organisms, which are systems that interact with people using natural modalities. Dr. Forbus elaborated on this in a 2016 paper titled “Software social organisms: Implications for measuring AI progress” where he argued that achieving human level AI is equivalent to learning how to create sufficiently smart software social organisms. James asks Dr. Forbus to briefly describe this concept.

[00:44:18] James mentions that Dr. Forbus’ goal with this system is to create systems that can interact with people as apprentices or collaborators rather than just tools. In Dr. Forbus’ paper “Analogy and Qualitative Representations in the Companion Cognitive Architecture ,” he presents two hypotheses on how to create such systems. Starting with the first, James asks Dr. Forbus to elaborate on his hypothesis regarding analogical reasoning and learning, incorporating retrieval and generalization as well as SME capability for analogical matching.

[00:48:38] Ken asks Dr. Forbus to elaborate on the second hypothesis, qualitative representations.

[00:51:11] James asks if it is correct that Dr. Forbus’ key takeaway in this paper was that the models of structure mapping were particularly robust.

[00:52:00] Ken pivots to discuss Dr. Forbus’ book “Qualitative Representations: How People Reason and Learn About the Continuous World” in which Dr. Forbus proposes that qualitative representations, which are symbolic representations that carve continuous phenomena into meaningful units, hold the key to one of the deepest mysteries of cognitive science and are central to human cognition. Ken asks Dr. Forbus to talk about his book and its key points.

[00:57:32] James explains that Dr. Forbus followed up his book with a review in Science Direct, exploring how visual reasoning tasks involving comparison provide insights into how people make similarity and difference judgements. James goes on to mention that Dr. Forbus and his colleague Andrew Lovett summarized evidence that the same structure mapping comparison processes that seem to be used elsewhere in cognition can be used to model comparison in human visual reasoning tasks, and this relies on qualitative visual relationships computed using CogSketch, a model of high-level human vision. James asks Dr. Forbus to talk about these findings.

[00:59:22] James mentions that Dr. Forbus and his colleagues published a paper about the importance of sketch worksheets in STEM classrooms. They argue that sketching can be a valuable tool for science, but it is currently underutilized. Dr. Forbus and his colleagues recommend sketch worksheets that use AI technology to give students immediate feedback and give instructors assistance in grading. James asks Dr. Forbus to explain what sketch worksheets are and how they can be helpful.

[01:01:06] Ken asks Dr. Forbus to give some examples of homework that have been assigned with sketch worksheets.

[01:02:34] Ken brings up another one of Dr. Forbus’ papers, which focused on the issues of adversarial attacks on ethical AI systems. The paper investigated moral axioms and the use of deontic logic in a norm learning framework. They found that adding axiomatic moral prohibitions and deontic inference rules to a norm learning model will make it less vulnerable to adversarial attacks. Ken asks Dr. Forbus to talk more about this.

[01:07:09] James asks Dr. Forbus what his thoughts are on the idea that AI will soon begin to replace humans.

[01:19:52] James explains that the impressive performance of deep learning systems, particularly LLM’s like ChatGPT has simultaneously made it harder for researchers to engage in building cognitively based systems. James asks Dr. Forbus for his thoughts on how we might lay the groundwork for continuing the important work in cognitively based systems.

[01:22:54] Ken closes our interview by asking Dr. Forbus if he is thinking about retirement anytime soon.

Links:

Learn more about IHMC

STEM-Talk homepage

Ken Ford bio

Ken Ford Wikipedia page

Dawn Kernagis bio

Ken Forbus bio

Today we have planetary scientist Dr. Pascal Lee and STEM-Talk host Dr. Ken Ford in a wide-ranging conversation about NASA’s ambitions to return humans to the Moon as a stepping stone to sending astronauts to Mars.

Pascal is making his third appearance on STEM-Talk. Much of his research focuses on asteroids, impact craters, and the future human exploration of Mars. Pascal and Ken have a lively discussion about the growing momentum for space exploration.

Pascal is a researcher at the SETI Institute, a not-for-profit NASA program focused on searching for extraterrestrial intelligence in an effort to understand and explain the origin and nature of life in the universe. He also is the co-founder and chairman of the Mars Institute, and director of the Haughton-Mars Project at NASA Ames Research Center.

Last year, Pascal received significant news coverage for his discovery of a giant volcano along with a possible sheet of buried glacier ice in the eastern part of Mars’ Tharsis volcanic province. This was the first geological find of this magnitude since the other major volcanos on Mars were discovered back in the 1970s.

Show notes:

[00:03:06] Ken welcomes Pascal back to STEM-Talk and starts our interview by mentioning the developments in space exploration over the past few years, including civilian space missions, NASA’s Artemis program which aims to send humans back to the moon, and commitments to a manned mission to Mars. Given Pascal’s career in advancement of space exploration, Ken asks if Pascal is excited by these recent developments.

[00:04:43] Ken explains that for a couple of decades Pascal has spent his summers visiting Devon Island in the Canadian arctic archipelago, which is the largest uninhabited land on Earth. When Pascal was last on STEM-Talk, his annual trip to Devon Island was cancelled due to COVID-19. Devon Island has unique geological characteristics that are in some ways similar to those on Mars. Since 2001, Devon Isalnd has been the home of the Haughton Mars Project (HMP). Ken asks Pascal to talk about the advances in this project since his last appearance on STEM-Talk.

[00:07:59] Ken mentions that while much conversation has been centered on a human trip to Mars, a mission to return humans to the Moon and establish a permanent base is a more immediately feasible goal in the short term. Ken asks Pascal to talk about the importance and significance of such a mission.

[00:12:06] On the topic of a Moon base, Ken explains that NASA’s Artemis project aims to send humans to the south pole of the Moon. Pascal has written a paper on that topic titled “An Off-Polar Site Option for the NASA Artemis Space Camp.” Ken asks Pascal what he sees as the primary weakness in the south pole location.

[00:20:25] Ken agrees with Pascal’s perspective on sending humans to the lunar south pole, and the two discuss the problems with focusing human space exploration on romantic ideas such as “living off the land.”

[00:22:24] Ken follows up on the previous questions by mentioning that in Pascal’s aforementioned paper, he suggests setting up a lunar base at the floor of the Clavius crater. Ken asks Pascal to talk about Clavius and why it is a potentially good permanent location for a moon base.

[00:27:56] Ken asks Pascal how confident he and the community at large is in the Sophia finding of water.

[00:29:00] Ken notes that contemporary interest in human space exploration appears tied to current geopolitical issues, much like the first space race between the US and USSR. Today, interest in space travel is closely linked with relations between the US and China. Ken asks Pascal to discuss this and how he believes the US should view this current situation.

[00:35:43] Ken asks Pascal what he knows about the China’s current plans for a lunar mission.

[00:34:36] Ken talks about a meeting at IHMC that addressed power-beaming to the lunar surface.

[00:39:01] Ken notes that there is a lot of talk these days about not not only traveling to Mars, but also colonizing Mars. Ken asks Pascal where he believes this sentiment is coming from and what are some of the challenges associated with colonizing Mars.

[00:46:48] Ken notes that last year Elon Musk made an announcement to his SpaceX employees that he expects 1 million people to be living on Mars in the next 20 years. Ken asks Pascal what his thoughts are on this.

[00:53:28] Ken asks Pascal to talk about a paper he published discussing a previously unrecognized volcano on Mars. Given that it was generally accepted for decades that all the volcanos had been accounted for, Ken asks Pascal to talk about the story of his recent discovery.

[01:02:44] Ken pivots to a discussion of the Moons of Mars, specifically Phobos, asking Pascal to talk about the nature of this Moon.

[01:07:42] Ken mentions that docking on Phobos and then going from Phobos to Mars would likely be a safer strategy for early Mars missions than landing directly on Mars from Earth.

[01:12:30] Ken starts a discussion about Perseverance, as well as the new Japanese mission that may bring back Mars rocks from Phobos. Ken asks Pascal about Perseverance’s collection Mars’ of rock samples that NASA plans for a mission to bring those Mars rocks to Earth. Ken asks it is worth the cost of a mission to collect these samples and what we might learn if we are successful in getting these samples to Earth.

[01:17:09] Ken wraps up our interview asking Pascal what year it was that he started working at NASA Ames, which turns out to be the same year Ken started working at NASA Ames.

Links:

Pascal Lee bio

Learn more about IHMC

STEM-Talk homepage

Ken Ford bio

Ken Ford Wikipedia page

Today we have JP Errico, a scientist and inventor whose work focuses on neuroimmunology and the many ways it impacts cellular metabolism, inflammation, mental health and how we age. He recently joined IHMC as a Senior Research Scientist.

JP is particularly known for his research on vagus-nerve stimulation and is the author of the book, The Vagus-Immune Connection: Harness Your Vagus Nerve to Manage Stress, Prevent Immune Dysregulation, and Avoid Chronic Disease. He also is the co-host of the podcast, The Health Upgrade.

JP has more than 250 patents and is the founder of ElectroCore, a company that specializes in neuromodulation and noninvasive vagus-nerve stimulation. He has an undergraduate degree in aeronautical engineering from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology and worked at Lincoln Laboratories. JP also holds graduate degrees in both law and mechanical/materials engineering from Duke University.

Show notes:

[00:03:08] Tim opens our interview mentioning that as a child JP was focused on both sports and academics.

[00:04:50] Tim talks about how hard it is to find quality math and science education today similar to what JP experienced at his high school.

[00:05:16] Tim asks JP what it was that led him to pursue an undergraduate degree at MIT.

[00:05:53] Tim asks if it was always JP’s plan to go into aeronautical engineering.

[00:07:22] Tim mentions that as a kid, JP would scour bookstores and libraries for textbooks on physics and quantum mechanics and asks JP if there were any books that particularly inspired him.

[00:10:12] Ken mentions that after MIT, JP went to Duke University where he pursued mechanical engineering and also went to law school. Given this workload, Ken asks if JP ever had any free time while studying at Duke.

[00:13:26] Tim mentions that while JP was in law school, he got a job at a patent firm. After obtaining his law degree, JP’s uncle called and offered JP an opportunity.

[00:17:42] Tim explains that JP’s career has focused on neuroimmunology, or the study of how the nervous system and immune system interact. Neuroimmunology affects a wide range of health factors including inflammation, mental health and aging. Tim also explains that JP has recently authored a book on neuroimmunology titled “The Vagus Immune Connection: Harness Your Vagus Nerve to Manage Stress, Prevent Immune Dysregulation and Avoid Chronic Disease.” Tim asks JP to touch on the key features of neuroimmunology that people should be aware of.

[00:21:59] Tim asks JP to touch on the epigenetic factors regarding neuroimmunology.

[00:25:01] Since JP brought up Dr. Kevin Tracey’s work, Ken mentions that Kevin was recently interviewed on STEM-Talk episode 172 and encourages listeners to listen to that episode for more context on the vagus nerve and neuroimmunology.

[00:25:48] JP talks about how he stumbled upon the idea of how stimulating a nerve may have the same clinical benefit that sometimes occurs as a result of cutting a nerve.

[00:28:16] Tim talks about the unintended consequences he observed as surgeon when he cut a patient’s vagus nerve.

[00:30:50] Ken mentions that another area where JP has had impact with respect to stimulating the vagus nerve is the treatment of asthma and asks JP to talk about his findings in this area.

[00:40:10] Tim notes that after JP knew that non-invasive approaches to vagus-nerve stimulation were possible, he went on to optimize a delivery device. These efforts resulted in a device called gamaCore. Tim asks JP to talk about this device and how it works.

[00:43:27] Tim asks JP to talk about what it feels like for patients to have their vagus nerve stimulated.

[00:44:50] Ken asks if JP thinks that his and others’ work in vagus-nerve stimulation inspired the development of similar devices for orthopedic pain, where the device is implanted near the nerve on the knee or other area experiencing pain.

[00:50:41] Tim starts a conversation about a program at DARPA called Targeted Neuroplasticity Training, or TNT, which investigated ways to stimulate the nervous system to treat various conditions like pain and phantom pain. Before jumping into that topic, however, JP discusses depression and how inflammation and the vagus nerve play a part in serotonin and melatonin production.

[00:55:39] Ken asks JP why stimulating the vagus nerve has such a breadth of applications and benefits.

[01:01:57] Given the success of vagus-nerve stimulation in affecting a wide variety of health outcomes as well as improving learning, there are many individuals interested in trying vagus-nerve stimulation for themselves. Tim asks JP what advice he has for people looking to try vagus-nerve stimulation.

[01:09:39] Tim notes that in his use of various vagus-nerve stimulation devices in studies he has conducted, there are varying outcomes. Given this, Tim asks JP what devices he recommends.

[01:11:50] Ken asks JP to talk about the development of the Truvaga device.

[01:13:47] Ken closes our interview mentioning again JP’s book, “The Vagus Immune Connection: Harness Your Vagus Nerve to Manage Stress, Prevent Immune Dysregulation and Avoid Chronic Disease,” and encourages listeners to check it out.

Links:

Learn more about IHMC

STEM-Talk homepage

Ken Ford bio

Ken Ford Wikipedia page

Tim Broderick bio

JP Errico bio

Today we have Dr. Karl Herrup, a neurobiologist known for his investigations into the roles that DNA damage and noncoding genetic variants have in Alzheimer’s disease.

Joining Ken today to interview Karl is Dr. Tommy Wood, a visiting scientist here at IHMC.  Tommy also is an associate professor of pediatrics and neuroscience at the University of Washington, where he focuses on brain health across lifespan. He has been our guest several times on STEM-Talk and we will have links to those interviews in our show notes for today’s episode.

After more than a century of research, the underlying cause of Alzheimer’s remains a mystery. For the past few decades, the leading theory has been the amyloid cascade hypothesis, which proposes that abnormal amyloid plaques in the brain are the central cause of the disease.

Today we talk to Karl about his lab and research as well as his view that the amyloid cascade hypothesis is not only flawed,  but also could be holding back research for a cure of Alzheimer’s.

A professor of neurobiology and an investigator in the Alzheimer’s Disease Research Center at the University of Pittsburgh School of Medicine, Herrup is the author of How Not to Study a Disease: The Story of Alzheimer’s.

Show notes:

[00:03:50] Tommy asks Karl what he was like as a kid to open the interview.

[00:04:36] Tommy asks Karl about his educational environment growing up.

[00:05:10] Ken mentions that Karl went to Brandies University originally with the intent of becoming a physician and asks Karl what happened to change his mind.

[00:06:14] Ken asks Karl if it is true that his father was disappointed with Karl’s decision to abandon medical school in favor of genetics.

[00:07:02] Tommy mentions that Karl began researching genetics in the late 1960s when researchers were just beginning to unravel the secrets of DNA. Tommy asks Karl to discuss why this was such an exciting time to study genetics.

[00:08:38] Tommy asks Karl what prompted him to pursue a PhD in neuroscience.

[00:11:34] Continuing on the theme of happy accidents, Ken asks if it was also an accident that led to Karl moving to Switzerland for a second post-doc.

[00:12:36] Ken asks Karl to expound on his experience taking an overseas post-doc, which was not a common practice in the 1970s.

[00:14:11] Ken mentions that Karl has seemed to benefit in his life from the combination of preparation and the willingness to explore opportunities that present themselves.

[00:15:00] Tommy mentions that when Karl arrived back in the US from Switzerland, he accepted a faculty position at Yale and asks him to discuss this experience.

[00:17:06] Tommy mentions that after Yale, Karl had several faculty appointments, including a seven-year stint in Hong Kong, and asks Karl to talk about that experience.

[00:21:36] Tommy asks Karl why, in 2019, he moved back to his hometown to become a professor of neurobiology at the University of Pittsburgh and co-investigator at the university’s Alzheimer’s research center.

[00:24:45] Ken asks Karl to talk about his lab at the University of Pittsburgh, which focuses on the biology of neurodegeneration.

[00:26:32] Ken asks Karl if there was anything specific that caused him to shift his focus at this stage in his career so heavily towards Alzheimer’s research.

[00:28:21] Tommy comments on Karl’s hypothesis of the aging brain, noting that it would make sense for the same processes involved in the developing brain to relate to what we see in the aging brain, as these processes are continuous throughout the lifespan.

[00:29:54] Tommy pivots to talk about Karl’s book, entitled “How Not to Study a Disease: The Story of Alzheimer’s” for which Karl interviewed a number of experts and colleagues, asking each one to define Alzheimer’s disease in their own words.

[00:30:51] Tommy reiterates the point that we still do not have a universally accepted definition of Alzheimer’s disease and asks Karl why this is such a critical problem for the field.

[00:32:27] Ken asks if Karl has a working definition of Alzheimer’s disease.

[00:33:47] Ken explains that Karl begins his book with the story of a woman named Dorothy, who after living a vibrant life and taking good care of herself as she aged, fell victim to Alzheimer’s disease. Ken asks Karl to talk about Dorothy, and why he chose to begin his book with her story.

[00:36:58] Tommy asks Karl to define the difference between Alzheimer’s and dementia more broadly.

[00:38:00] Tommy explains that while Alzheimer’s is typically characterized as a disease of late life, early onset Alzheimer’s, while rare, is possible, typically very aggressive, and generally runs in families. Tommy asks Karl to explain how we differentiate late and early onset Alzheimer’s.

[00:38:58] Ken asks Karl to explain how one differentiates Alzheimer’s from other forms of dementia in a clinical context.

[00:41:53] Ken points out that the title of Karl’s book “How Not to Study a Disease” highlights that assumptions about Alzheimer’s disease potentially have misdirected research in some ways. Ken asks Karl to talk about this misdirection and its consequences.

[00:43:37] Tommy gives some background on the amyloid cascade hypothesis, explaining that Dr. Alzheimer himself was not entirely convinced that the cases he had been studying were necessarily representative of a single condition.  Dr. Alzheimer’s mentor, Dr. Kraepelin, coined the disease in a book that he was writing. Tommy also mentions that Karl has said that this is one of three key events that cemented the amyloid cascade hypothesis as the leading hypothesis of Alzheimer’s disease and asks Karl to discuss more of this history.

[00:49:20] Tommy asks Karl to give an overview of the amyloid cascade hypothesis.

[00:53:36] Ken explains that Karl sees the amyloid cascade hypothesis as failing three basic tests. Ken goes on to ask Karl to discuss, in depth, the first test, which is the fact that in both humans and mice the addition of amyloid to healthy brains does not trigger an amyloid cascade.

[00:56:55] Tommy moves to Karl’s second test of the amyloid cascade hypothesis, the fact that removal of amyloid from the brains of mice and humans does not stop Alzheimer’s disease processes. Given the recent FDA approval of several anti-amyloid drugs, Tommy asks Karl to give his thoughts on the history of anti-amyloid therapies.

[01:03:29] Ken explains that the third test of the amyloid cascade hypothesis entails blocking the formation of amyloid from the amyloid precursor protein, which was not only found to not stop Alzheimer’s progression, but in fact makes humans and mice sicker.

[01:05:47] Ken takes a moment to clarify that Karl is not arguing that amyloid has no role in Alzheimer’s disease, just that it is not the primary cause of Alzheimer’s.

[01:06:21] Ken asks Karl what his response is when people ask what he proposes the cause of Alzheimer’s is if it’s not amyloid.

[01:08:45] Tommy asks Karl to elaborate on the idea of the emergent nature of the brain and the potential for this emergence to help explain Alzheimer’s disease.

[01:10:54] Ken mentions that the last section of Karl’s book is titled “Where Do We Go From Here” in which he argues that because age is an absolute prerequisite for Alzheimer’s, there is no solution to the problem of dementia that does not rely heavily on an understanding of the process of aging. Ken goes on to explain that much of this was originally posited in Karl’s 2010 paper Reimagining Alzheimer’s disease: An age-based hypothesis. Ken goes on to ask Karl to talk about his view that developing an age-based hypothesis is going to be difficult given that aging is one of the greatest unsolved mysteries in biology.

[01:13:19] Ken mentions that aging research gets a very small amount of funding in comparison to the myriad disorders for which aging is the primary risk factor.

[01:16:11] Tommy shifts gears to talk about a series of studies that Karl conducted on the benefits of exposure to Japanese gardens on the clinical symptoms of Alzheimer’s disease. In one of these studies, Karl found that the Japanese garden not only relieved physiological stress but also improved qualitative measures such as verbalization and memory retrieval. Tommy asks Karl how he became interested in Japanese gardens, and if the results of his experiments surprised him.

[01:20:33] Tommy comments that Karl’s work on the effects of Japanese gardens on the clinical symptoms of Alzheimer’s contributes to a larger body of literature showing the critical importance of the environment in shaping and maintaining cognitive function. Tommy goes on to say that the decline in certain cases of Alzheimer’s can be matched to the increasing levels of institutionalization and the decrease of enriching stimuli in a patient’s environment as their disease progresses. Tommy asks Karl to talk about the importance of social, cognitive, and environmental stimuli for cognitive function.

[01:23:34] Ken mentions that Karl has pointed out in the past that non-pharmacological approaches to treating Alzheimer’s have been the most effective tools in our arsenal so far. Given this, Ken asks Karl what he recommends to people for their brain health and cognitive function.

[01:25:22] Ken explains that Karl is involved with, or supports, at least two charitable organizations that aim to reshape the face of funding for Alzheimer’s research, namely the Coins for Alzheimer’s Research Trust, and the Clear Thoughts Foundation. Ken asks Karl to talk about his relationship to these organizations and what he hopes will change in the landscape of Alzheimer’s research funding.

[01:27:23] Tommy closes our interview asking whether Karl has a Japanese garden of his own in his back yard.

Links:

About IHMC

Karl Herrup bio

Ken Ford bio

Ken Ford Wikipedia page

Tommy Wood bio

Tommy Wood STEM-Talk episode 47

Tommy Wood STEM-Talk episode 48

Tommy Wood STEM-Talk episode 110

Tommy Wood STEM-Talk episode 111

Tommy Wood STEM-Talk episode 128

Today we have Dr. Frank Butler, a retired Navy Undersea Medical Officer and an ophthalmologist who served as a Navy SEAL platoon commander prior to attending medical school.

Just a few weeks after our interview, President Joe Biden awarded Frank a Presidential Citizens Medal during a White House ceremony. The medal is one of the highest honors a civilian can receive and recognized Frank’s many contributions to civilian and military trauma care.

Frank is credited with founding Tactical Combat Causality Care, also known as TC Three, which has transformed battlefield medical care and saved thousands of lives.  TCCC is now used throughout the U.S. military and much of the world. In today’s interview, we talk to Frank about his recent book, “Tell Them Yourself: It’s Not Your Day to Die,” which describes the challenges and improvements TCCC has experienced over the past three decades.

Frank spent most of his 26-year career in Navy Medicine supporting the Special Operations community. He served a five-year stint as a Diving Medical Research officer at the Navy Experimental Diving Unit in Panama City, Fla., where he helped develop many of the diving techniques and procedures used by Navy SEALs today.

Show notes:

[00:03:31] Dawn opens the interview asking Frank what it was like growing up in Savannah, Ga., in the 50s and 60s.

[00:04:40] Dawn asks Frank about his father, who was an industrial engineer, and who became director of urban housing in Savannah during a time when the city was developing public housing.

[00:05:47] Ken asks Frank if it’s true that most of his family went into the medical field.

[00:06:33] Ken asks Frank about his experience attending a Navy SEALs demonstration during his sophomore year of college.

[00:08:09] Dawn asks Frank about his experience going through Navy SEAL training, particularly the Basic Underwater Demolition SEALs School.

[00:09:29] Dawn asks if it’s true that five people in Frank’s family have become Navy SEALs.

[00:10:08] Ken explains that after Frank left the SEALs in 1975, he had to figure out what to do next with his life. Frank talks about what led to his decision to go to medical school.

[00:11:14] Ken asks Frank how he ended up at Jacksonville Naval Hospital to do an internship in family medicine.

[00:11:46] Dawn explains that after Frank’s internship, he was assigned to the Navy Experimental Dive Unit. She asks him to talk about this experience.

[00:12:25] Frank talks about some of the projects he worked on during this period.

[00:14:43] Ken asks Frank how he decided on ophthalmology as his surgical specialization.

[00:15:47] Dawn asks Frank what his experience as a resident at Bethesda Naval Hospital was like.

[00:16:52] Dawn explains that after Frank completed his residency, he was assigned to Pensacola Naval Hospital. Dawn asks Frank how he ended up becoming the biomedical research director for the Navy SEALs.

[00:18:48] Ken mentions that Frank worked on several important projects as research director for the SEALs, including battlefield trauma care, a tactical athlete program, improved treatment of decompression sickness, and the Navy SEAL nutrition guide. Ken begins by asking Frank to talk about his work on the tactical athlete program.

[00:20:33] Dawn explains that another one of Frank’s projects as research director for the SEALs was the design of the Navy special warfare decompression computer. Dawn asks Frank to explain what a decompression computer does for a diver.

[00:21:35] Dawn asks Frank to elaborate on the process of designing this decompression computer and the algorithm as well as the process of getting it approved for the Navy.

[00:23:31] Ken asks Frank to talk about a program he worked on to promote refractive surgery. While this program was initially designed to improve combat vision for SEALs, the program has expanded to all active-duty service members, including aviators.

[00:26:26] Dawn explains that Tactical Combat Casualty Care (TCCC) has been an incredible transformation in battlefield trauma care, with literature indicating that the protocols have saved thousands of lives. TCCC is now used throughout the US military and much of the rest of the world. Dawn goes on to ask about Frank’s book “Tell Them Yourself: It’s Not Your Day to Die,” which documents how TCCC has evolved over the three decades since it was first introduced, as well as the trials and tribulations the program endured.

[00:28:04] Ken asks Frank to elaborate on the assertion in his book that, save for the use of helicopters in place of horse drawn carriages, pre-hospital battle trauma care was essentially the same as it was during the Civil War prior to TCCC.

[00:30:05] Following up on the discussion of tourniquets, Ken mentions his memory of the outright ban of tourniquets in the Navy during his time in the service.

[00:31:07] Ken asks Frank how he was able to take his realization that something needed to be done about battlefield trauma care and turn that into a Navy project.

[00:32:58] Dawn asks Frank how, as program manager, he approached the conduct of the TCCC research project.

[00:35:03] Dawn asks Frank why, even though the TCCC paper came out in 1996, TCCC was still not widely used in the U.S. military at the beginning of the war in Afghanistan.

[00:36:14] Frank recalls the first unit to implement TCCC.

[00:37:10] Dawn asks what other units followed as early adopters.

[00:39:26] Dawn asks Frank how he helped implement TCCC throughout the special operations community.

[00:43:11] Ken mentions that some units did particularly well in adopting TCCC and others struggled. Given this, Ken asks if the operational leader’s priority regarding TCCC impacts the implementation of it in the unit.

[00:44:31] Ken asks Frank to speak on the adoption and implementation of TCCC in the rest of the military outside of the special operations communities.

[00:47:32] Dawn asks Frank how he updated his recommendations for TCCC as new evidence from the war came in.

[00:50:31] Ken asks Frank, other than tourniquets, what medical advancements to battlefield trauma care did TCCC usher in.

[00:54:31] Ken mentions that while the TCCC innovation of carrying whole blood and performing pre-hospital blood transfusions has saved countless lives, the innovation still is not ubiquitous in the military or for civilian first responders. Ken asks Frank to talk about the complexities of a ubiquitous adoption of this practice, and what can be done to push it forward.

[01:00:06] Dawn asks, in addition to tourniquets and whole blood, what are some of the TCCC innovations that are now being widely used in the civilian world.

[01:03:19] Ken pivots to a discussion about ketamine. Ken notes that the U.S. military, as well as the militaries in other countries, have used ketamine as an anesthetic, especially since the war in Afghanistan.  Ken notes that the civilian world has been slow to adopt ketamine as a drug for pain relief. Frank gives his thoughts broadly on the use of ketamine as an anesthetic and his belief that it will become more common in civilian EMS units over the next five to 10 years.

[01:07:34] For listeners who are interested in learning more about the medical uses of ketamine, Ken recommends Episode 165 with Dr. Jonathan Edwards.

[01:09:03] Ken and Frank have a tangential discussion about ketamine as a treatment for suicidal ideation and depression.

[01:11:11] Ken asks Frank, given that the TCCC protocols have been widely adopted in every area of the military, what is the basic level of competence in TCCC that every service member should have.

[01:14:26] Ken asks Frank to speak to the situation in Ukraine with respect to combat casualty care.

[01:17:23] Looping back to Frank’s book “Tell Them Yourself: It’s Not Your Day to Die,” Dawn asks why Frank took up the task of writing it.

[01:21:20] Dawn asks Frank about the significance of the book’s title.

[01:22:04] Dawn mentions that many people speak about how compelling the first chapter of Frank’s book is. Dawn asks Frank to talk about the writing process for this chapter.

[01:25:05] Dawn mentions that one of Frank’s co-authors for his book is Dr. Kevin O’Connor, who is currently the physician to the president. Given that Frank was in the Navy and Dr. O’Connor was in the Army, Dawn asks Frank how the two of them met.

[01:26:42] As we near the end of our interview, Ken asks Frank if he has any final insights to share about battlefield trauma care.

[01:28:11] Ken comments on the importance of Frank’s book as a marker, so we don’t forget hard won lessons during times of peace.

[01:29:47] Dawn closes our interview with Frank by mentioning that he is an avid diver and asks him what his favorite spot to dive is.

Links:

Frank Butler Presidential Citizens Medal

Frank Butler IHMC lecture and bio

Learn more about IHMC

STEM-Talk homepage

Ken Ford bio

Ken Ford Wikipedia page

Dawn Kernagis bio

Today our guest is Dr. JoAnn Manson, an endocrinologist, epidemiologist, and Principal Investigator of several research studies, including the landmark Women’s Health Initiative. She is a highly cited researcher and was one of the physicians featured in the National Library of Medicine’s exhibition, History of American Women Physicians. Her primary research interests include clinical prevention trials of nutritional and lifestyle factors related to heart disease, diabetes, and cancer and the role of endogenous and exogenous estrogens as determinants of chronic disease.

Show notes:

[00:02:53] Dawn kicks off the interview by asking JoAnn what it was that drew her to endocrinology.

[00:04:33] Ken asks how the things JoAnn witnessed in her early medical practice influenced her interest in disease prevention.

[00:05:51] Dawn asks JoAnn to discuss how her mother, who suffered from ovarian cancer, influenced JoAnn’s focus on women’s health.

[00:06:40] Dawn asks JoAnn what prompted her interest in clinical research.

[00:08:06] Noting the difference between public health and laboratory medical research, Dawn asks JoAnn what the most valuable thing is that she learned from her master’s and Ph.D. work in public health at Harvard.

[00:09:10] Ken mentions that while JoAnn and many others are interested in the prevention of disease, our healthcare system does not seem focused on prevention. Ken goes on to asks if this was part of what led JoAnn to work on the Nurses’ Health Study.

[00:10:17] Ken asks JoAnn to give an overview of the Nurses’ Health Study for listeners who may not be familiar.

[00:11:41] Dawn explains that the Nurses’ Health Study found that women taking hormone therapy had a lower risk of heart disease and a reduction in all-cause mortality. Dawn asks JoAnn to talk about this finding.

[00:15:00] Ken asks JoAnn what the impact of the Nurses’ Study has been on public health and women’s health in general.

[00:16:29] Dawn asks JoAnn about her experience being a principal investigator in the Women’s Health Initiative starting in 1993.

[00:18:17] Ken asks JoAnn to give context regarding how the Women’s Health Initiative (WHI) was designed, how the women were recruited, and what the specific questions were that the study aimed to answer.

[00:21:34] Dawn mentions that the three interventions that were evaluated in the WHI were hormone therapy; calcium and vitamin D supplementation; and a low-fat diet. Dawn starts by asking JoAnn about the hormone therapy interventions, and how it was decided which hormone therapies to test.

[00:24:25] Dawn asks JoAnn to give some context to the finding from the WHI that women taking the combination of conjugated estrogen and medroxyprogesterone acetate had higher risks of breast cancer and stroke.

[00:27:01] Ken asks if the worse outcomes from hormone therapy for older women was due to their advanced age, or the hormone therapy itself.

[00:30:25] Ken asks JoAnn to talk about the risk factors for breast cancer that were uncovered by the WHI.

[00:35:38] Dawn explains that because of the WHI’s findings, it is more common to use transdermal estradiol, as opposed to the oral form evaluated in the original trial. Dawn asks JoAnn to explain how the different ways these hormone formulations are processed in the body affects the risk benefit ratio.

[00:39:04] Dawn asks if these transdermal estradiol treatments might have benefits regarding cognitive decline.

[00:43:26] Ken asks JoAnn for her thoughts on the overuse and potential misuse of the term ‘bioidentical hormones.’ Ken goes on to note that the term has seemingly become more related to marketing and further distanced from clinical science.

[00:46:48] Dawn asks JoAnn to talk about the role that perimenopausal birth control decisions can play in the management of hot flashes for women in their 40s and 50s.

[00:49:14] Ken shifts the conversation to discuss the second pillar of the WHI, calcium and vitamin D supplementation. Ken explains that this pillar of the trial tested to see if this supplementation decreased risk of hip fractures in post-menopausal women. Ken asks JoAnn to discuss these findings.

[00:53:13] Dawn asks about the third pillar of the WHI, which looked at whether a low-fat dietary pattern reduced the risk of breast cancer, colorectal cancer, or coronary heart disease.

[00:55:31] Dawn asks JoAnn what questions are left for the WHI to explore.

[01:00:17] Ken asks about a recent report in the journal Menopause, which looked at the cognitive effects of clinical menopausal symptoms.

[01:01:36] Dawn asks JoAnn to expound on what ‘cognitive decline’ is measured as, with respect to sleep loss resulting from menopausal symptoms such as hot flashes and night sweats.

[01:02:38] Dawn asks JoAnn about a study she and her colleagues conducted at Brigham showing that a comprehensive multivitamin can delay age related memory decline by an average of two years.

[01:06:41] Ken asks about the findings of JoAnn’s 2018 study in The New England Journal of Medicine, which looked at whether vitamin D supplementation resulted in a lower incidence of invasive cancers and cardiovascular events.

[01:10:11] Regarding the aforementioned study, Ken explains that a subgroup analysis raised the possibility of differential effects of cancer incidence connected to BMI. Ken asks JoAnn to elaborate on this subgroup analysis.

[01:13:41] Ken asks if the aforementioned results would look more pronounced, or different in some way, if the data was analyzed with respect to body composition as opposed to BMI.

[01:15:09] Dawn asks JoAnn what she would like to see change about how women’s health is taught and studied with respect to perimenopause, menopause, and post-menopause.

[01:16:13] Dawn asks JoAnn what she and her colleagues plan to investigate next, and what answers she thinks we will have for future generations of women as they age that we don’t have now.

[01:18:13] Ken wraps up our interview asking JoAnn what she likes to do in her spare time.

Links:

JoAnn Manson bio

Learn more about IHMC

STEM-Talk homepage

Ken Ford bio

Ken Ford Wikipedia page

Dawn Kernagis bio

Today we have Dr. Hans Van Dongen, director of the Sleep and Performance Research Center at Washington State University in Spokane. Dr. Kevin Gluck, a senior research scientist at IHMC, joins Dr. Ken Ford to interview Hans about his studies on inter-individual differences in vulnerability to fatigue as well as the cumulative cognitive deficits that follow chronic sleep restriction.

Hans is known for his mathematical modeling of fatigue’s effects on performance. At the Sleep and Performance Research Center, Hans and his colleagues investigate how sleep loss and circadian misalignment impact brain function, cognition and behavior.

Show notes:

[00:02:50] Kevin opens the interview by asking Hans about his childhood growing up in The Netherlands.

[00:03:23] Ken asks Hans what he was like as a kid.

[00:03:50] Kevin mentions Hans’s father was a math and science teacher and wonders if that influenced Hans’ interest in science.

[00:04:48] Hans talks about attending Leiden University and explains why he majored in astrophysics.

[00:06:09] Hans shares how working in a psychophysiology lab put him on a path to specialize in sleep research.

[00:08:00] Hans talks about how he was part of a study that proved the morning-evening chronotype was a biological trait, rather than a psychological one.

[00:09:55] Ken asks Hans what led him to take a post-doc position at the University of Pennsylvania.

[00:11:22] Hans explains what led him to move from the University of Pennsylvania to Washington State University.

[00:13:36] Ken mentions that The Sleep and Performance Research Center, where Hans serves as the director, is a coalition of basic and applied research laboratories that aim to understand the neurobiology of sleep and sleep loss. Ken goes on to mention that Hans and his colleagues investigate sleep and biological rhythms, and their impact on health and performance. Kevin asks Hans to give an overview of what sleep loss is and the effect it has on our metabolism, immune system, and cognitive performance.

[00:15:57] Kevin mentions Hans’ recent paper which investigated how circadian misalignment due to night shift work has been associated with an elevated risk of chronic disease. The paper demonstrated that just a few days of being on a night shift schedule throws off protein rhythms related to blood glucose regulation, energy metabolism, and inflammation. Kevin asks Hans to talk more about the findings.

[00:21:18] Ken asks how long it takes for a person’s circadian rhythm to normalize after ceasing to work night shifts.

[00:22:13] Kevin brings up Hans’ paper on the continually operating neurobiological mechanisms of homeostatic and circadian processes and their effects on neurobehavioral performance. Before asking about the paper itself, Kevin asks Hans to give an overview of the homeostatic process and its relationship to the circadian process.

[00:24:14] Ken notes that the bio-behavioral function and evolutionary advantage of the circadian process is widely recognized, but that the neurobiology of the homeostatic process and its effects on performance are still poorly understood. In a 2011 paper, Hans attempted to shed light on the underlying mechanisms of the homeostatic process to provide an explanation for why the buildup of homeostatic pressure resulting from sleep loss leads to instability in vigilant attention. To explore this, Hans first explored the time-on-task effect. Ken asks Hans to explain the time-on-task effect and its role in cognitive performance.

[00:27:06] Kevin brings up the “local sleep hypothesis,” which attempts to explain the time-on-task effect. According to the local sleep hypothesis, groups of neurons involved in performing a task will “fall asleep” as a homeostatic consequence of sustained use, which leads to an interruption in information processing, leading to impaired performance. Kevin asks Hans what empirical and scientific evidence exists for the hypothesis.

[00:32:03] Ken explains that working all hours of the day and suffering chronic sleep restriction, and at times sleep deprivation, has become normalized in our society. In light of this, Ken asks what impacts sleep deprivation and sleep restriction have on the cognitive performance and overall health.

[00:34:02] Ken asks Hans to elaborate on the fact that sleep deprivation is particularly problematic and potent with regards to decision-making when circumstances are uncertain or unexpected.

[00:38:40] Ken asks Hans what his thoughts are on stimulant use for workers and operators who need to stay awake for extended periods.

[00:41:43] Hans discusses how contrary to popular belief, even modest amounts of sleep loss can have negative impacts on cognitive and physical performance.

[00:46:40] Kevin asks Hans about the common belief that people can adapt to chronic sleep restriction.

[00:49:29] Hans describes his work with the Psychomotor Vigilance Test (PVT), which requires participants to respond as quickly as possible to a stimulus that appears at random intervals.

[00:52:46] Kevin mentions that Hans published a review paper in 2019 with Amanda Hudson and Kimberly Han in Neuropsychopharmacology. This paper points out that research on sleep deprivation, vigilant attention, and brain function may help determine the fixed connections and malleable connections between specific neuronal pathways involved in specific cognitive processes.

[00:56:22] Ken mentions that to better understand the neurocognitive effects of sleep deprivation, Hans performed a study that evaluated the strategy of ‘catching up on sleep’ a practice many people engage in during periods where sleep restriction is inevitably followed by abundant free time. Ken asks Hans to discuss the design of this study and its findings.

[01:06:41] Kevin pivots back to Hans’ study on sleep restriction and deprivation. According to the study, a person who is chronically sleep deprived experiences diminishing performance, and if that person undergoes sleep deprivation by skipping a night of sleep, their performance further diminishes. However, a person would see their performance recover within a few days of restricted sleep following sleep deprivation. Kevin asks Hans to expand on these findings.

[01:10:52] Kevin asks Hans to clarify some terminology regarding sleep health, as well as explain how someone at home can assess their own sleep health.

[01:15:13] Ken asks Hans what his sleep schedule is like.

[01:19:22] Ken mentions that Hans was recently featured in a news article about the dreaded ‘mid-day slump’ of energy. Ken goes on to explain that while it is commonly believed that the mid-day slump can be attributed to eating lunch, Hans argues that it is the result of a gap between the circadian clock and the homeostatic clock as a result of inadequate sleep. Ken asks Hans to elaborate.

[01:23:36] Ken asks if Hans thinks that the poor metabolic health of many people in North America also contributes to the mid-day slump.

[01:25:19] Ken asks Hans to think of the biggest lessons he has learned about science and life during his career.

[01:29:14] Kevin mentions that Hans and his wife enjoy traveling together, but that his wife has a bit of a complaint about these travels.

[01:30:59] Following up on the topic of travel, Ken asks Hans how he manages jet lag.

[01:34:56] Ken recommends for listeners, an app called Timeshifter for managing jet lag.

[01:35:04] Ken, Kevin and Hans wrap up the interview talking about jet lag.

Links:

Hans Van Dongen

Learn more about IHMC

STEM-Talk homepage

Ken Ford bio

Ken Ford Wikipedia page

Kevin Gluck bio

Today we have Dr. Rudolph E. Tanzi, who is perhaps best known for co-discovering all three familial early-onset Alzheimer’s disease genes. In addition, Rudy’s lab was the first to use human stem cells to create three-dimensional human brain organoids and three-dimensional neural-glial culture models of Alzheimer’s disease, which became known as “Alzheimer’s-in-a-Dish.” These models were the first to recapitulate all three of the key pathological hallmarks of Alzheimer’s disease and have made drug screenings faster and cheaper.

Rudy is the director of the Genetics and Aging Research Unit as well as the director of the Henry and Allison McCance Center for Brain Health. Rudy is also co-Director of the Massachusetts General Institute for Neurodegenerative Disease at Massachusetts General Hospital and serves as the Joseph P. and Rose F. Kennedy Professor of Neurology at Harvard Medical School.

Rudy has published more than 700 research papers and is one of the top 50 most cited neuroscientists in the world. He is author of “Decoding Darkness,” and a co-author of two books with Deepak Chopra, “Super Brain” and “The Healing Self.”

Show notes:

[00:03:18] Ken opens the interview mentioning that Rudy began playing the accordion when he was just seven years old. Ken goes on to ask Rudy about the time his father gave him a Jimmy Smith album and some advice.

[00:05:51] Ken mentions that, in addition to Rudy’s musical talents, he was also interested in science growing up. Ken asks about Rudy’s participation in the Westinghouse Science Talent Search and what that experience was like.

[00:07:09] Ken asks Rudy about growing up in Cranston, Road Island.

[00:08:39] Rudy talks about how he ended up at the University of Rochester after high school.

[00:09:51] Ken mentions that both Rudy’s grandfather and father passed away at the age of 45. Ken asks Rudy if this played a role in his pursuit of a career in genetics research.

[00:10:57] Rudy explains how he chose Harvard Medical School for his Ph.D.

[00:12:47] Ken pivots to ask Rudy about his time working with Jim Gusella in the early 80’s at Mass General, where they were the first to ever find a disease gene. Family studies at the time had shown that the Huntington’s disease gene was linked to a polymorphic DNA marker. Rudy talks about this discovery and how the chromosomal localization of the Huntington’s disease gene was the first step in using recombinant DNA technology to identify the primary genetic defect in this disorder.

[00:16:07] Ken asks Rudy about his work in 1987, when he discovered the first Alzheimer’s gene, recombinant DNA technology, which causes the production of amyloid. Ken goes on to explain that mutations in the APP gene can cause a rare form of early onset Alzheimer’s. Rudy talks about the paper that came out in “Science” that detailed this discovery.

[00:18:38] Rudy discusses his personal philosophy and approach to research.

[00:19:43] Ken mentions that in Rudy’s book, Decoding Darkness, he writes that few nightmares on Earth can compare to Alzheimer’s disease. Ken asks Rudy to talk more about this book.

[00:21:50] Ken explains that in the same way our physical capabilities will suffer some form of decline with age, it is also expected that we have some decline in memory and cognitive ability as we age as well. However, Ken goes on to say that when people begin to experience age-related memory lapses, it can lead to a lot of anxiety about their genetic predisposition to Alzheimer’s. Ken asks Rudy to talk about the lifestyle factors that play into whether someone predisposed to develop Alzheimer’s can stave off or avoid disease development.

[00:26:09] Ken explains that aging appears to intensify when people stop challenging themselves with new things. Given this, Ken asks Rudy what his thoughts are on challenging our brains as they age to protect our cognitive abilities.

[00:29:08] Ken asks Rudy about the principal advances in Alzheimer’s research that have occurred over the past few decades. He also asks Rudy for his thoughts on the biggest and most important mysteries that remain regarding Alzheimer’s.

[00:34:48] Ken brings up one of Rudy’s papers, published in 2014, which they successfully recapitulated amyloid-β and tau pathology in a single 3D human neural cell culture system. Ken goes on to mention that this paper had a huge impact in the field of research, and even landed Rudy a spot on Time Magazine’s 100 most influential people list.

[00:38:57] Ken mentions that in 2019, Rudy published another influential paper, which investigated the crosstalk between microglial receptor genes CD33 and TREM2. Ken explains that these two genes have been associated with an increased risk of Alzheimer’s disease, and that Rudy has referred to them as yin and yang to each other. Ken asks Rudy to elaborated on this concept.

[00:43:00] Ken pivots to discuss Rudy’s paper that was published last year and which the press somewhat misleadingly reported on. Ken explains that physical exercise has been shown to reduce amyloid beta in various Alzheimer’s models, but it is imperfectly associated with amyloid burden in humans. Ken goes on to explain that Rudy’s paper demonstrated, for the first time, a cellular and molecular mechanism by which exercise induced irisin attenuates amyloid beta pathology.

[00:46:27] Ken mentions that Rudy is currently writing a new book and mentions that some of Rudy’s previous books have been co-authored with Deepak Chopra. Ken asks how Rudy and Deepak came to work together.

[00:51:24] Ken asks, given the complex nature of Alzheimer’s and the many components that contribute to the pathology, if there is a way to organize all we know about Alzheimer’s in a straight-forward way.

[00:58:19] Ken asks if there are any particularly promising FDA approved drugs or nutraceuticals for stopping the production of amyloid.

[01:00:16] Ken asks if Rudy gets questions regarding which drugs and supplements screened have shown the most promise.

[01:03:33] Ken closes the interview by asking how he manages to be such a prolific scientist. Rudy has published more 700 papers while also having a lifetime of playing music with rock bands, working with sports teams and publishing New York Times best sellers.

Links:

Rudy Tanzi bio

Learn more about IHMC

STEM-Talk homepage

Ken Ford bio

Ken Ford Wikipedia page

Our guest today is Dr. Anurag Singh, the chief medical officer at Timeline Nutrition, a Swiss life-science company that focuses on ways to improve mitochondrial and cellular health. Anurag is particularly known for his research into the gut metabolite, urolithin-A, which has been shown to improve muscle strength, protect immune systems and optimize mitochondrial efficiency.

Anurag is an MD in internal medicine with a Ph.D. in immunology. He has led more than 50 randomized clinical trials, many of them focusing on urolithin-A over the past decade.

In today’s episode we talk to Anurag about his investigations into urolithin-A and the role it plays as a postbiotic that enhances mitochondrial function. Foods that contain the polyphenols needed to produce urolithin-A include pomegranates, strawberries, raspberries and walnuts.

Show notes:

[00:02:48] Marcas starts the interview by mentioning that Anurag grew up in India, in Lucknow, and asks what Anurag’s childhood was like.

[00:03:56] Marcas follows up, asking Anurag what he was like as a kid, given the competitive environment he grew up in.

[00:04:47] Ken asks Anurag if it is true that, at an early age, his parents noticed he was gifted in biology and encouraged him to think about pursuing medical school.

[00:05:47] Ken asks if Anurag started medical school at only 18 years of age.

[00:06:28] Marcas explains that Anurag went to India’s Armed Forces Medical College for training in internal medicine and asks if it is true that this is one of India’s top medical schools.

[00:07:07] Marcas explains that it is typical for graduates from the India Armed Forces Medical College to serve a few years in the Indian army after graduation. Marcas asks Anurag to tell the story of how he was able to go to the U.S. post-graduation rather than serving time in the army.

[00:08:00] Ken asks if Anurag’s interest in medical research led him to pursue a Ph.D. in immunology.

[00:08:56] Ken asks Anurag what his Ph.D. research was on.

[00:09:37] Marcas mentions that in 2009, Anurag accepted a position at Nestlé at a time when the company was entering into the space between food and pharma. Marcas asks Anurag how this move came about.

[00:11:20] Ken explains that Anurag quickly became medical director at Nestlé and started initiating clinical trials around food and allergies, as well as research on aging and how the immune system declines with age. Ken asks Anurag to explain what his time at Nestle was like.

[00:12:53] Marcas mentions how the shift from practicing physician to research scientist is an interesting course and asks Anurag to talk about a mentor who gave him the advice that led to his career shift.

[00:13:55] Ken mentions that in 2014 Anurag joined a Swiss company, Amazentis, as chief medical officer, and later became the lead for their medical and clinical research strategies. Ken asks Anurag to talk about the company and the work he does.

[00:15:00] Ken asks Anurag to describe the relationship between Amazentis and Timeline.

[00:15:42] Marcas asks Anurag to elaborate on his biotech approach to nutrition science, and how hard biology is used in his nutritional approaches at Amazentis.

[00:18:02] Marcas asks Anurag to give listeners an overview of the function and importance of mitochondria.

[00:19:15] Ken asks Anurag if there are any other benefits to good mitochondrial health, other than an increased energy supply.

[00:20:24] Ken asks Anurag to define the terms “mitochondrial biogenesis” and “mitophagy.”

[00:22:13] Marcas pivots to discuss age-related frailty and healthspan, specifically bringing up a study Anurag conducted on a Dutch population comparing active seniors to sedentary seniors.

[00:25:09] Ken mentions that Marcas likes to refer to exercise as medicine, given its potent effects on a wide variety of biomarkers. Ken asks Anurag to discuss the importance of exercise.

[00:26:59] Following up on the Dutch study, Marcas mentions that there is an explosion of research into healthspan, resilience, and even lifespan, and asks Anurag to discuss the core principles of healthy aging.

[00:29:14] Ken asks Marcas to give a brief aside as to the capacity, capabilities, and aims of IHMC’s new Healthspan Resilience and Performance complex.

[00:31:36] Ken mentions that poor metabolic health continues to be a growing global issue. Ken asks Anurag to share his thoughts on the issue.

[00:33:25] Marcas circles back to Anurag’s work at Timeline investigating natural compounds that target mitochondrial health. Marcas notes that Anurag and his colleagues found that urolithin-A outperformed every other molecule tested with respect to mitochondrial health. Urolithin-A is a natural compound produced by gut bacteria from metabolizing ellagitannins and ellagic acid, complex polyphenols found in foods such as pomegranates berries and nuts. Marcas asks Anurag to explain what these compounds are in detail.

[00:35:25] Marcas asks if there are lifestyle changes one can make to improve their gut microbiome population to increase how much urolithin A one can pull from food sources.

[00:37:07] Ken asks, assuming the hypothetically perfect microbiome and the perfect ellagitannin conversion, if it is possible through diet alone to produce enough urolithin A to observe considerable benefit.

[00:38:51] Marcas asks if any factors, other than chronic antibiotic use, have been shown to negatively affect the gut microbiome and its ability to produce urolithin-A.

[00:41:09] Marcas moves on to discuss Anurag’s 2016 paper titled “Urolithin-A induces mitophagy and prolongs lifespan in c-elegans and increases muscle function in rodents” Marcas asks Anurag to discuss the origins of this paper and the impact of its findings.

[00:44:18] Ken asks if the professor that Anurag partnered with on his 2016 paper ever investigated rapamycin as opposed to metformin.

[00:45:08] Ken asks if the primary mechanism of action regarding urolithin-A’s effect on mitophagy is known or if we have only seen a strong association with other mechanisms of mitophagy and autophagy.

[00:46:14] Marcas explains that in the progression of aging and a sedentary lifestyle, there is a decline in a cell’s ability to eliminate dysfunctional elements through autophagy and mitophagy. This decreased capacity specifically in skeletal muscle has been associated with poor muscle health and quality in older adults. Marcas asks about a 2019 paper Anurag wrote that detailed the results of his first human clinical trial in which he administered urolithin-A to sedentary but otherwise healthy adults.

[00:49:35] Marcas mentions that exercise also activates mitophagy, and asks if there are any key cellular, or mechanistic, differences between exercise and urolithin-A in their effects on mitochondrial health.

[00:50:49] Ken mentions that Anurag’s research on urolithin-A led to the development of Mitopure, which is the first postbiotic nutrient that has been shown to trigger mitophagy by targeting cellular decline. Ken goes on to mention that in 2022, Anurag published the paper “Urolithin-A improves muscle strength, exercise performance, and biomarkers of mitochondrial health in a randomized trial in middle aged adults” in which subjects were given oral doses of Mitopure. Ken asks Anurag to discuss this paper and its findings.

[00:54:37] Ken asks Anurag to discuss the specific contents of each package of Mitopure.

[00:56:19] Ken mentions that many therapies targeting mitochondrial health seem to only be effective when there is some defect or problem with the mitochondria. Ken asks Anurag’s why it seems that mitochondrial therapies can only return mitochondrial functioning to baseline rather than increase performance above baseline.

[00:58:15] Maras asks Anurag if he thinks that Mitopure is best used as a supplement to healthy lifestyle choices such as exercise, rather than a replacement for them.

[00:59:42] Ken pivots to talk about the sources of urolithin A, one of which being Iberian pigs, which consume a diet almost exclusively of acorns, which are rich in ellagitannins. Ken asks if the urolithin-A in Iberian pigs can be found in the ham meat itself.

[01:01:45] Marcas mentions Anurag’s paper published in the journal Aging Cell, which showed that Mitopure supplementation had potential to improve mitochondrial functioning in human cartilage. In this study, Anurag demonstrated that Mitopure supplementation for eight weeks, protected against osteoarthritic disease progression. Marcas asks Anurag to talk about this potential.

[01:04:03] Ken mentions that much of the research on urolithin-A has been conducted on its effects on skeletal muscle; however, urolithin-A also would be expected to have effects on other mitochondrially dense tissue as well. Ken asks if there has been any research on urolithin-A’s effects on tissues like liver or cardiac tissue.

[01:06:23] In response to Anurag mentioning the Buck institute’s research with urolithin-A, Ken mentions that we discussed urolithin-A at length with Buck institute researcher Julie Andersen on episode 118.

[01:07:34] Moving on to Anurag’s current research, Marcas asks about a randomized controlled trial in collaboration with the Buck Institute to see if urolithin-A can improve the immune health of middle-aged adults by improving mitochondria health.

[01:11:17] Ken asks about a recently completed randomized controlled trial looking at elite runners to determine whether overtraining induces mitochondrial dysfunction and whether urolithin-A has an impact on muscle recovery.

[01:14:40] Ken mentions that with all the interest growing in urolithin-A, there is an explosion of supplements on the market, which one cannot know the true composition or quality of. Ken asks Anurag if he has any advice for consumers who might want to try urolithin-A.

[01:17:28] Marcas closes the interview asking Anurag how he likes to spend his free time.

Links:

Anurag Singh bio

Anurag Singh ResearchGate

Learn more about IHMC

STEM-Talk homepage

Ken Ford bio

Ken Ford Wikipedia page

Marcas Bamman bio

Few people know as much about inflammation and neuroscience as Dr. Kevin Tracey does.

In this episode of STEM-Talk, we learn much from Tracey, who was the first to identify the inflammatory reflex, a physiological mechanism that regulates the body’s immune response to injury and invasion.

He is a neurosurgeon, a pioneer in bioelectrical medicine and president and CEO of the Feinstein Institutes for Medical Research in Manhasset, N.Y. The conversation in this episode covers a career spent working on “producing tomorrow’s cures today” in the treatment of inflammatory diseases, including:

[00:03:04] Dawn asks Kevin to tell the story of how he developed an interest in science that evolved into him becoming a neurosurgeon.

[00:04:56] Dawn mentions that Kevin was a curious youth and asks if it is true that after getting his first car, Kevin removed the entire engine because he wanted to better understand how to do a valve job.

[00:06:33] Ken mentions that after Kevin graduated from high school, he enrolled in Boston College where he earned a bachelor’s degree in chemistry. Ken explains that Kevin went to Boston University Medical School for his M.D. and asks Kevin about the transition.

[00:08:41] Ken asks if it is true that during Kevin’s first year at medical school his classmates had better luck finding him on the golf course than in the classroom.

[00:10:42] Dawn asks Kevin about his transition from medical school to the neurological surgery training program at New York Hospital, home of the Cornell University Medical College.

[00:13:11] Dawn pivots to talk about sepsis, which kills more than 350,000 people annually. She asks Kevin to discuss his tragic story of treating a patient with sepsis as a young neurosurgeon and how that changed the trajectory of his career.

[00:16:38] Ken explains that since the aforementioned incident, Kevin has focused on determining why septic shock occurs. Ken refers to a Ted Talk of Kevin’s in which he says, “good science begins with hard questions.” Ken asks Kevin to elaborate on this point.

[00:20:49] Dawn mentions that Kevin often describes himself as a brain surgeon who is fascinated by inflammation. Dawn asks Kevin how he responds when people ask him what inflammation is.

[00:22:29] Ken follows up by explaining that in 1987 Kevin made progress investigating inflammation with his discovery of tumor necrosis factor (TNF), which contributed to a new class of drugs for inflammatory and autoimmune diseases. Ken asks Kevin to discuss this discovery.

[00:25:56] Dawn mentions that in the late ‘90s, Kevin made another discovery that allowed him and his colleagues to merge neuroscience and immunology. Before getting into that discovery, Dawn asks Kevin to explain how humans have simple reflex circuits that harmonize the activity of our organs. She also asks him to talk about Charles Sherrington’s Nobel Prize-winning research, which laid the groundwork for contemporary neuroscience by showing how reflex circuits are the building blocks of our nervous system.

[00:29:50] Ken asks Kevin to elaborate on what monoclonal antibodies are, what disorders they can be used to treat, and what their potential benefits and downsides are.

[00:33:10] Dawn asks Kevin to talk about the discovery he made in the late 1990s, while studying the possibility of blocking TNF during a cerebral infarction or stroke by injecting a molecule that he and his colleagues developed directly into the brain.

[00:35:59] Ken mentions that after this discovery, Kevin started looking into well-established methods in neuroscience, such as those that link specific areas of the brain to specific cognitive functions and asks Kevin to discuss this research.

[00:39:45] Dawn explains that the insight that discrete brain regions control specific behaviors led Kevin to postulate that cutting the circuits connecting the brain and organs could reveal the identity of specific areas that control TNF. Dawn asks Kevin to walk through how he investigated this hypothesis.

[00:44:22] Ken asks Kevin to give an overview of the functions of the vagus nerve.

[00:46:00] Ken mentions that our show notes will provide a link to a short video that maps out the vagus nerve in detail. Ken goes on to mention that after Kevin looked into the relationship between TNF and the vagus nerve, he theorized that the TNF off signal from the vagus nerve completes a nerve circuit between the brain and the immune system. This finding had broad implications, and Ken asks Kevin to elaborate on them.

[00:50:57] Dawn mentions that Kevin wrote an article in 2002 for the journal Nature titled “The Inflammatory Reflex”, which emphasized the basic neural pathway that research had identified which reflexively monitors and adjusts the inflammatory response. Dawn goes on to mention that Kevin coined the term “inflammatory reflex” to describe how the nervous system monitors and controls the circuit to prevent the immune system from becoming overactive or underactive. Additionally, Kevin proposed in this article that it might be possible to activate neural anti-inflammatory mechanisms using small molecules to initiate signals in the central nervous system. Dawn asks Kevin to give an overview of the key insights into the inflammatory reflex he discussed in that article.

[00:54:15] Ken comments on the monumental importance of this paper to the field of neuro-immunology, and the treatment of inflammatory diseases, and asks Kevin what the response to this paper was.

[00:57:30] Dawn explains that Kevin has proposed that a dysregulated inflammatory reflex can lead to toxicity, tissue damage, and the presence of cytokines. It also can lead to miscommunication among cytokines leading to potential complications with autoimmune diseases. Dawn asks Kevin to talk about the process of testing this theory.

[01:00:54] Dawn asks Kevin about a sketch he drew while having lunch, which laid out how treating inflammatory diseases using a bioelectronic device might be possible.

[01:05:18] Ken pivots to talking about an influential 2016 paper that Kevin wrote on how the stimulation of the vagus nerve targeted the inflammatory reflex.

[01:08:23] Ken asks if there are any adverse effects suspected or identified for stimulating the vagus nerve in humans.

[01:12:02] Ken mentions that in writing about the vagus nerve Kevin has often talked about how the vagus nerve can get “out of tune.” Ken asks Kevin to explain how this occurs and what it means.

[01:14:41] Dawn mentions a study that Kevin spearheaded, which found that the dorsal motor nucleus is an important brain stem locus controlling anti-inflammatory signals and the inflammatory reflex. Dawn asks Kevin to discuss this study and how it was the first to demonstrate that neurons in the brain stem nuclei control the production of TNF.

[01:17:51] Dawn asks about a study Kevin and his colleagues conducted that looked at the use of an implanted vagus nerve stimulator in a small group of patients with Crohn’s disease.

[01:20:55] Ken asks Kevin what advances in bioelectronic medicine he envisions in the next decade.

[01:23:23] Ken mentions that the pharmaceutical industry is likely keeping a close eye on the development of bioelectronic medicine.

[01:24:25] Dawn mentions that Kevin is the president and CEO of the Feinstein Institute for Medical Research at Northwell Health, which has 50 research labs, and more than 5,000 researchers and staff on board. Dawn asks Kevin to talk about this research center and the range of work that goes on there.

[01:27:29] After mentioning that Kevin holds 120 U.S. patents, Ken asks Kevin about his ongoing tinkering and development of inventions.

[01:30:22] Dawn asks Kevin, with all the work he has on his plate, if he still finds time to golf.

Links:

Kevin Tracey bio

Feinstein Institutes for Medical Research

Learn more about IHMC

STEM-Talk homepage

Ken Ford bio

Ken Ford Wikipedia page

Dawn Kernagis bio