Surfing the MASH Tsunami

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In this episode, Naim Alkhouri, Mike Betel, Michelle Long and Jeff McIntyre join Jörn Schattenberg and Roger Green to look back at The Liver Meeting 2024. This conversation considers how the anticipated approval of a second MASH drug without biopsy might affect clinical trials and discusses two recent publications on patient genotyping and patient clusters.

The conversation starts with Roger asking the group whether the presence of two approved MASH medications that do not require biopsy will make recruiting clinical trials that require them more challenging. The group doubts this will not add a significant new challenge to already-challenging trial recruitment. Naim comments that while this is a concern, it is already factored into trial schedules and that, given the number of patients available for trial, this should be highly manageable. Michelle discusses the importance of risk stratification in overall trial enrollment and this issue. Jeff and Mike agree that while this is a concern, it is part of a broader concern about the use of biopsy and should not in itself be a primary focus in terms of trial design at this point in time.

Naim introduces two other topics he considers worthy of consideration: the impact of synergy between resmetirom and GLP-1 agonists and the importance of different genetic polymorphisms in predicting the impact of drugs on specific patients. On synergy, he comments that MAESTRO-NASH data suggests that the presence of a GLP-1 does not affect the impact of resmetirom on fibrosis level. On the second point, he notes that several papers looked at major genotypes like PNPLA3 and HD17N13 and specifically cites a late-breaker from Arun Sanyal indicating that g-allele status may impact MASH independent of weight or insulin. Michelle mentions a recent paper in Nature identifying distinct clusters of patients based on how their SLDs progress over time, with a two-cluster solution indicating patients with concomitant diabetes and obesity vs. those without these two concomitant diseases. Roger shares a key point from each paper on treatment in the US. Data in the PNPLA3 paper might suggest that the course of disease in Hispanics, who have high levels of g-allele abnormalities, might be different from other ethnic groups with far lower abnormality rates. He also notes that the faster disease progression in the non-metabolic cluster highlights the importance of learning more about Lean MASH and how to treat it, since faster progression of disease suggests later diagnosis and higher morbidity, mortality and treatment costs levels.

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In this episode, Naim Alkhouri, Mike Betel, Michelle Long and Jeff McIntyre join Jörn Schattenberg and Roger Green to look back at The Liver Meeting 2024. This conversation reviews the ESSENCE trial, the Phase 3 trial demonstrating that semaglutide regresses fibrosis levels in some MASH patients. 

The conversation begins with each panelist sharing a word or short phrase they felt best captured their feelings about TLM2024. Next, panelists review the meeting's most consequential paper, the ESSENCE Trial. Naim starts by describing ESSENCE, a Phase 3 trial with semaglutide demonstrating significant levels of fibrosis regression in non-cirrhotic MASH patients. Jörn adds the hopeful note that NITs performed as well as or better than biopsy in this trial, which he hopes will speed the transition in diagnostic approaches and tools. Jeff and Mike agree that from the patient's perspective, ESSENCE will be seen as a milestone in MASH therapy: the proof that a second drug can succeed in MASH. As the conversation ends, Roger notes that approval of a second agent for a particular disease often leads to dramatic growth in overall drug treatment by changing the pivotal question from whether to treat with a drug to which choice to prescribe. 

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00:00:00 – Surf’s Up: Season 5 Episode 26 - Last month, close to 8,000 hepatology stakeholders convened in San Diego for The Liver Meeting 2024. Hepatology Key Opinion Leader Naim Alkhouri, Novo Nordisk International Vice President for Medicines Michelle Long, and patient advocates Jeff McIntyre from the Global Liver Institute and Michael Betel from the Fatty Liver Alliance join Jörn Schattenberg and Roger Green to discuss highlights.

00:03:23 - Introduction and Groundbreaker - Highlights include recent travel, cultural events, and the Third Annual Primary Care Summit from the Fatty Liver Alliance.

00:11:35 - Describing TLM2024 - Participants shared a word or short phrase they felt best captured their feelings about TLM2024.

00:14:51 - The ESSENCE Trial - Naim starts the session by describing ESSENCE, a Phase 3 trial of semaglutide in non-cirrhotic MASH patients, which he describes as "the most exciting news of the meeting." Panelists describe the benefits of this trial from a variety of perspectives.

00.22.49 - A Challenge to Trial Recruitment? - Roger asks the group whether the presence of two approved MASH medications that do not require biopsy will make recruiting clinical trials that require them more challenging. The group doubts this will not add a significant new challenge to already-challenging trial recruitment.

00:29:22 - Other keys in drug development - Naim begins a discussion of two topics: the value of synergy between resmetirom and the GLP-1 agonist, and the importance of different genetic polymorphisms in predicting the impact of drugs on specific patients. Michelle mentions a recent paper in Nature identifying distinct clusters of patients based on how their SLDs progress over time. Roger identifies two particular challenges in this area, one posed by Lean MASH and the other specific to Hispanics in the US.

00:34:42 - FGF 21s - Jörn highlights a paper from the later breaker session on efimosfermin alfa, an FGF-21 dosed q4w. Roger and Mike comment. To Jörn, this and other studies demonstrate the place FGF-21s are likely to have in MASH therapy.

00:40:29 - FDA Corner and the Role of Surrogates - Michelle praises the FDA Corner session, particularly the agency's transparency and willingness to engage industry and academia in finding paths to move away from biopsy. She is optimistic about the scientific community coming together to address these issues. Jeff notes the pivotal role he believes patients must play in this process.

00:48:33 - Patient Insights - Mike describes a poster he presented (and was lead co-author), titled Patient Voice in MASH Initiatives:  Foundational Principles for the Conduct of Patient-Centric MASH Research. He lists the groups participating in this broad effort and the foundational principles that emerged. Michelle and Jörn share their thoughts on which principles have the greatest impact on them in clinical research. Jeff praises a panel that Mike co-chaired on Lifestyle Management of MASLD and MASH. He praises the breadth and quality of speakers and topics. He also comments on the large number of providers and industry executives who attended this patient-centered session. Roger notes a similar distribution of attendees at the Health Livers, Healthy Lives session on building momentum for prevention. 

00:58:36 - Wrapping Up - Roger comments on the breadth of modes of action that have produced successful Phase 2/3 trial results. He notes that we may have 4-5 different modes of action available five years from now. In the rest of the session, panelists describe what they believe will be different and exciting at TLM2025.

01:06:01 - Question of the Week
Listeners and readers, What do you consider the most essential paper or theme of TLM2024??

01:06:38 - Business Report
Changes coming in 2025 with SurfingMASH v2.0.

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00:00:00 - Surf's Up: Season 5 Episode 25
On July 20, Clinical Gastroenterology and Hepatology released the paper, Expert Panel Recommendations: Practical Clinical Applications for Initiating and Monitoring Resmetirom in Patients with MASH/NASH and Moderate to non-cirrhotic Advanced Fibrosis. Corresponding author Maru Rinella joins the Surfers to share key points from the recommendations and offer her thoughts on what lay behind them.

00:02:26 - Introduction and Groundbreaker
The highlight was Louise's groundbreaker: having become a full Fellow in the Roal College of Physicians.

00:06:28 - Introducing the paper
Roger starts by discussing the importance of this paper and listing the questions the panel will address during the episode. Maru provides a history of developing the paper. Jörn praises its timeliness. 

00:08:59 - Treating the "Right" patients; Using the "Right" tests
Jörh asks why the authors changed the patient definition from a histological one to at-risk MASH patients confirmed by NITs. Maru said the authors sought to follow the FDA guidance on NITs and patient targets. They considered adding liver enzymes or confirmatory VCTE to the protocol, but demurred because not every clinical could execute such a recommendation. 

Jörn asks whether the authors considered requiring three metabolic risk factors. Roger notes that this question implies a need to prioritize patients, which is a factor in Europe but not the U.S. This paper takes a more U.S-based perspective, which is to set a threshold for use.  

00:14:21 - The Decision Not to Discuss Cost
The authors did not address costs because they anticipated steep reductions over time. The panel compares the MASH case to HCV. In HCV, the combination of high drug costs and large number of warehoused patients drove prioritization over time. 

00:16:34 - Relative paucity of warehoused MASH patients 
Maru suggests relatively few MASH patients are warehoused. Louise asks whether many U.S. insurers are controlling access by requiring liver biopsy. Maru reports she has not encountered this personally and  estimates it might affect ~5% of cases so far. 

00:19:05 - Rationale for Patient Selection
Maru explains the rationale for an F2 threshold for patient selection: patients with fibrosis >= F2 show a demonstrable decline in long-term survival. The rationale for excluding cirrhosis patients? Resmetirom is not yet proven to help patients with cirrhosis. Jörn notes, the MAESTRO-OUTCOMES trial is running and will generate consequential data on cirrhosis. 

00:22:11 - Value of Stabilizing Disease without Improvement
Maru notes that the paper focused strongly on how to stabilize patients because the drug is safe and stabilization has real-world benefits.. She points out that patient advocates strongly recommend this focus. All this led to the paper's recommendation to discontinue only upon progression.  

00:25:12 - The importance of incremental learning
The group agrees that these recommendations comprise a base that will be strengthened over time as individual providers gain experience with the drug. 

00:30:06 - Wrapping up
Panelists touch briefly on the value of loose discontinuation rules, how patients feel about starting therapy, how to handle drug interactions, and how the paper is used in the US vs. other countries. In closing, the group remembers Stephen Harrison's unique contributions one more time.

00:37:55 - Question of the Week
Which of the paper's two striking recommendations -- using multiple NITs to qualify patients and continuing therapy unless and until a patient shows signs of disease progression -- will have greater impact on how physicians treat patients?

00:38:44 - Business Report
Summer schedules, value of the business report, the vault discussion.

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Two weeks ago, the SurfingMASH Question of the Week asked, "What structural or educational changes do you anticipate will significantly improve Provider-Patient communication? Will these changes require more from the provider and more from the patient?" Today, S5 E23 panelists Mike Betel and José Willemse join Roger Green to review the three answers we received. 

Of the three questions from audience members, one from a patient/patient advocate suggested greater honesty, better listening, and, if possible, either longer appointments or better care team engagement. The second, from another patient, discussed being more honest about the Quality of Life impact of immunological drugs, along with ways to manage these drugs better. The third, from a public health official in Argentina, discussed increasing the use of multidisciplinary teams to educate and empower individuals around healthy habits and lifestyles. 

To Mike, these answers all convey the need for "tailored care," a care and engagement process suited to each patient's individual situation in terms of disease(s) and quality of life needs and issues. He also suggests that pharmaceutical companies help educate physicians on these issues while discussing the disease and use of their medicines. 

José notes that it might not be possible to get more time for a visit, but the physician could improve the visit immensely by asking patients true open-ended questions about their feelings and concerns and then actively listening to their answers. She also suggests that physicians not act like they are time-compressed. If physicians act more leisurely, patients will be more comfortable, even if they do not take up more time. 

Roger suggests that the format of physician protocols and instructions might be part of the problem. If the physicians are evaluated by their employers based on their ability to work through an entire checklist in 15 minutes, they will focus first on the clock and second on the checklist. This will not leave time for patient questions and, even worse, will leave the patient afraid to take up any more of the physician's time than is necessary. Thus no true communication develops. 

Mike goes back to a point that José made during the original episode: physicians should close their computer screens and look at the patients. Roger goes back to the question about immunosuppressants to ask whether providers can assess patients' abilities to manage medications that cause or exacerbate depression and then offer advice and perhaps antidepressants as appropriate. 

Given all these emotive patient needs, José suggests that patient support groups have tremendous value, and Roger notes the presence of online support structures like HOPE from Sober Livers (Season 5 Episode 18). After asking where to find resources for these kinds of activities (particularly in less wealthy parts of the world), the conversation ends.

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In the second half of Roger Green's interview with Global Liver Institute Vice President, Liver Programs Jeff McIntyre, Jeff discusses the implications of his key EASL Congress takeaways for GLI and other patient advocacy groups.  

To Jeff, this trend makes patient advocates a more valuable player in the clinical trial design process, particularly when coupled with the FDA's increasing focus on diversity in trial populations. This will become particularly important because, today, the major use of incretin agonists like semaglutide and tirzepatide is in anti-obesity, where payers are frequently declining to pay for the drugs. Advocates like GLI will be pivotal in ensuring that patients who need MASLD drugs will still get the drugs they need, particularly at earlier stages of fibrosis. This discrimination may allow patients to receive incretin agonists during the pre-fibrosis stage based on diabetes and anti-obesity medications and reserve the fibrosis drugs for patients with more advanced MASH. The entire scenario of early metabolic, later MASH treatment with different agents is at least 4-5 years in the future. In the meantime, Jeff sees a need to advocate for underserved groups in the population while at the same time laying the foundation for the longer-term case. In this context, the United Nations General Assembly side effect (covered in S5, E22) is an exciting and vital event.

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This conversation contains the first half of Roger Green's interview with Global Liver Institute Vice President, Liver Programs Jeff McIntyre, during which the two discuss what Jeff considered the key strategic takeaways for GLI from the various EASL Congress presentations, abstracts and discussions. 

Jeff focuses on the "overriding sense of optimism" coming from the multiple pieces of positive drug data. He cites the data on Boehringer Ingelheim's survodutide, the follow-up work on Madrigal's resmetirom, an anticipated presentation on semaglutide at the AASLD in November, and strong FGF-21 results as proof that we are beginning to develop multiple robust, safe and effective modes of action for drugs to treat (at least pre-cirrhotic) MASH. His second positive point is that due to the drug trials and nomenclature change, GLI and other advocates are starting to have "more enlightened discussions" about MASLD in the context of the whole patient and related metabolic conditions. As a result, he comes to the third point, which is that multiple modes of action will teach us why what works in one patient might not in another and, ultimately, reshape clinical trials so that the target might not be fibrosis (or at least not only fibrosis), but instead exactly how each drug works. Jeff envisions this line of inquiry as a step down the path away from requiring biopsy. 

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In the second half of Roger Green's interview with PharmaNest Founder and CEO Mathieu Petitjean, Matt discusses the implications of his key EASL Congress takeaways for PharmaNest.  

Matt starts this discussion with a simple question: Will biopsy-based analyses become part of a surrogate endpoint? As he points out, they are not today, and creating the necessary data might require a significant effort. If not, they are unlikely to remain relevant to the large, Phase 3 trials. Regardless of the answer to this question, Matt believes digital pathology will still be important in pre-clinical work and other efforts to define underlying liver structures and faults better. Also, he notes, digital pathology is valuable in an array of other liver diseases and in non-hepatological markets, notably including pathology. One way or another, he is confident PharmaNest will continue to make contributions to hepatology and grow as a business.

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This conversation contains the first half of Roger Green's interview with PharmaNest Founder and CEO Mathieu Petitjean. After Matt tells the audience a little about his background and PhramaNest, the two discuss what Matt considered the key strategic takeaways for PharmaNest from the various EASL Congress presentations, abstracts and discussions. 

Before answering the question, Matt describes the core services his company offers: "PharmaNest specializes in digital pathology. Four years ago, we put down the hypothesis that the histological phenotype of fibrosis should be quantified in a high-resolution, sophisticated way." He goes on to state their core proposition for MASLD: "The big idea here is that fibrosis equals phenotype." He proceeds to describe his offerings in greater detail before offering the underlying value of computed histology: fibrosis is a continuous variable that is scored in discrete categories under the NASH-CRN model that drives FDA analysis. With this as context, he answers the question by describing three kinds of MASLD clinical trial designs. The first, earliest trials had a single pathologist reading histological slides. The method is not precise, but the drugs were not very good, and none were ultimately approved. The second set of trials relied on more rigorous methods for pathologists to read histology slides, with multiple readers and robust adjudication systems. Also, the drugs in this second set of trials were more efficacious, so that NASH-CRN, while a blunt instrument, could adequately assess efficacy. For the third set of trials, Matt believes non-invasive tests (NITs) are likely to suffice.

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00:00:00 - Surf's Up: Season 5 Episode 24 
This week's episode on MASLD lessons from the EASL Congress 2024 includes three separate elements: individual interviews with PharmaNext Founder and CEO Mathieu Petitjean and Global Liver Institute Vice President of Liver Programs Jeff McIntyre,  followed by a discussion with patient advocates Mike Betel of the Fatty Liver Alliance and José Willemse from the Netherlands, now supporting EASL. 

00:02:45 - Introduction
Roger explains the episode format, including the two key questions for Mathieu and Jeff: (i) what were their key takeaways from the EASL Congress, and (ii) how have those takeaways changed how they do their jobs or plan for the future? Roger also sets up the Question of the Week discussion that is today's third section. 

00:04:04 - Meet Mathieu Petitjean
This is the SurfingMASH debut for Mathieu Petitjean, Founder and CEO of PharmaNest. He tells the audience a bit about his background and his love of Harleys.

00:07:10 - First question to Matt
Matt begins by describing the core services Pharmest, a digital pathology company, offers MASH drug developers. Then he answers Roger's question by describing three phases in MASLD clinical trial designs. His point is that over time, drugs have gotten better, and histology requirements have become more onerous. At some point in the not-too-distant future, Matt believes non-invasive tests (NITs) are likely to suffice in large Phase 3 trials of the future.

00:21:01 - Second question to Matt
Matt starts the answer with a conditional: if biopsy-based analyses become part of a surrogate endpoint, the role is large and clear. If not, they are unlikely to remain relevant in Phase 3 trials. Regardless of the answer to this question, Matt believes digital pathology will remain important in pre-clinical work and in other continuous liver diseases with less-defined targets. Also, he says, digital pathology is valuable in an array of non-hepatological markets, notably including pathology. 

00:29:11 - First question to Jeff
Jeff describes an "overriding sense of optimism" he felt due to the many positive drug trials presented in Milano. This suggests that the MASLD community is developing safe and effective MASH drugs with many different modes of action. This is allowing GLI and other advocates to start to have "more enlightened discussions" about MASLD in the context of the patient's overall metabolic state. All this means that what works in one patient might not in another. This can reshape clinical trials so that the endpoint target might not be change in fibrosis but impact against specific NIT targets. Jeff envisions this line of inquiry as a possible step away from biopsy. 

00:39:34 - Second question to Jeff
Concurrently, FDA is beginning to require greater diversity in clinical trial populations. To Jeff, all this makes patient advocates like GLI more valuable to the clinical trial design process and pivotal in ensuring that metabolic and advanced MASH patients will still get the drugs they need. Starting today, Jeff sees advocates as championing underserved groups in the population while at the same time laying the foundation for the longer-term case. 

00:55:20 - Discussing previous "Question of the Week"
This is a 15-minute discussion of the Question of the Week we posed at the end of S5 E23. This section will constitute S5 E24.5, which we will post in the next day or two. A more complete summary will appear there. 

01:11:23 - Question of the Week
The Question of the Week is the first question Roger asks Matt and Jeff during this episode.

01:12:58 - Business Report
Previewing Episode 25, with Maru Rinella discussing the recently-published expert recommendations on use of resmetirom, along with comments on office hours the reason we will not have a vault conversation this week.