Today Virginia is chatting with Helen Rosner. 

Helen is a staff writer at The New Yorker. She has been covering food for more than a decade as a writer and editor, and won a 2024 James Beard Award for her weekly restaurant-review column, The Food Scene. She is an expert on sandwiches and many other important subjects. 

And I had the absolute pleasure of chatting with Helen last month at Books Are Magic in Brooklyn (hi Emma Straub thank you so much for having us!!), at a live event to celebrate the paperback release of Fat Talk. (They should still have a few signed copies in stock if you need one!)

We talked about the book, of course, but we talked about so many other fat- and food-adjacent topics, that I knew I wanted to bring it to you as a podcast episode.

(Bear with some imperfect audio, since we weren’t recording with our usual set-up — but Tommy worked his magic as usual so it’s still highly listen-to-able!)

If you find today’s episode valuable, please consider supporting our work with a paid subscription!

Guest interviews are always free on Burnt Toast, but paid subscriptions enable us to pay guests for their time, labor and expertise. (This is extremely rare in the world of podcasting, but key to centering marginalized voices!)

To tell us YOUR thoughts, and to get all of the links and resources mentioned in this episode, as well as a complete transcript, visit our show page.

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Disclaimer: You’re listening to this episode because you value my input as a journalist who reports on these issues and therefore has a lot of informed opinions. Neither my guest today nor I are healthcare providers, and this conversation is not meant to substitute for medical or therapeutic advice.

FAT TALK is out in paperback! Order your signed copy from Virginia's favorite independent bookstore, Split Rock Books (they ship anywhere in the US!). Or order it from your independent bookstore, or from Barnes & Noble, Amazon, Target, or Kobo or anywhere else you like to buy books. You can also order the audio book from Libro.fm or Audible.

CREDITS

The Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith and Corinne Fay. Follow Virginia on Instagram, Follow Corinne  @SellTradePlus, an Instagram account where you can buy and sell plus size clothing and subscribe to Big Undies.

Our theme music is by Farideh.Tommy Harron is our audio engineer.Thanks for listening and for supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism. 

I’m Virginia Sole-Smith, and today my guest is the great Helen Rosner.

Helen is a staff writer at The New Yorker. She has been covering food for more than a decade as a writer and editor, and won a 2024 James Beard Award for her weekly restaurant-review column, The Food Scene. She is an expert on sandwiches and many other important subjects.

And I had the absolute pleasure of chatting with Helen last month at Books Are Magic in Brooklyn (hi Emma Straub thank you so much for having us!!), at a live event to celebrate the paperback release ofFat Talk. (They should still havea few signed copies in stock if you need one!)

We talked about the book, of course, but we talked about so many other fat- and food-adjacent topics, that I knew I wanted to bring it to you as a podcast episode.

(Bear with some imperfect audio, since we weren’t recording with our usual set-up — but Tommy worked his magic as usual so it’s still highly listen-to-able!)

Guest interviews are always free on Burnt Toast, but paid subscriptions enable us to pay guests for their time, labor and expertise. (This is extremely rare in the world of podcasting, but key to centering marginalized voices!)

This episode contains affiliate links. Shopping our links is a great way to support Burnt Toast! You’ll find all of the links aggregated here.

Thank you Kim Baldwin for this cute pic of the livestream!

Helen

I was telling Virginia backstage—and this is true—I read a lot, but I'm a really bad nonfiction reader. I tend to feel like nonfiction books—I shouldn't say this in a bookstore, all nonfiction books are great. You should buy all of them. But I think there's a tendency for nonfiction books to have one really, really good idea and then say it over and over again for 300 pages. It’s like, this could have been a tweet. But I read every single page of this book in total joy. Actually, a lot of it was anger, but it flew by. It is such a great book. It’s funny and smart and so rigorous and has exactly the right kind of anger that is also transmuted into exhortation and action, and it made me feel really good about myself and hopeful by the end. I think that’s the best thing any book can do.

Virginia

Where were you when we were getting blurbs? Because that was amazing. Thank you so much. That really means a lot.

Helen

It’s really exciting for me to be talking to you about this. I’m a newish parent. I don’t know at what point I just call myself a parent instead of a new parent? I have a two year old.

Virginia

I think you’re getting there.

Helen

But this came out right on time for me. Shortly after my daughter was born this was sitting in my stack of prominently placed books in my living room, and my mother was visiting. She just sort of touched it and looked at it. It was like watching a deer approach—

Virginia

Don’t look at it. Don’t look at it.

Helen

Don’t look right at it. My mom, who was born in 1952 and who eats four almonds as a snack, literally. And it happened! Like, it happened. This is a great book, but it is also such a good passive aggressive prop.

Virginia

I really thought about that a lot in my cover design. How will this look on people’s coffee tables when their moms come over? And I think it’s eye catching with the yellow so you want to pick it up, but then you see “fat,” and you’re like, oh my God, what’s happening.

It brings up a lot for the moms. But I’ve heard this story a few times, and it gives me a lot of hope.

Helen

I assume it had a good impact. I mean, we haven’t directly discussed it.

Virginia

No, no. No one’s saying that has to happen.

Helen

One of the things that was really striking for me about this book that I want to talk to you about is the fact that it is a parenting book. I assume everybody is here because you are on some fundamental level interested in the concepts of body liberation and fat activism and the notion of the inherent dignity of the body, and how do we untie the knots of garbage that have prevented our society from allowing that to just simply be.

Virginia

That’s just the baseline. Everybody’s there? Good.

Helen

So what is the function and what is the effect and what does it do to frame that as a conversation about parenting?

Virginia

I love this question.

There are a couple things that made it end up being a parenting book. One is, when you are a writer who is a mom, people then assume you’re a parenting writer. So it was a path I was on a little bit, somewhat reluctantly.

But the bigger thing was: There are so many important voices in the fat activism space. There’s Aubrey Gordon, there’s Sonya Renee Taylor, there’s Ragen Chastain, there are just so many people who I’ve been learning from for years.

So when I thought about what can I contribute to the conversation—you know, I am a multiply privileged white woman. I’m a small fat woman. There are many parts of this conversation that I should not be centered in, that I do not own, and shouldn’t be taking up space in.

But there wasn’t a book about how to talk about anti-fat bias with kids, how to think about this issue as a parent. And because I was writing in a lot of parenting spaces, and because I am a parent, I knew that this issue is something parents are terrified of and really deeply struggling with.

So I felt like, well, this is the place I can contribute to the larger work of body liberation. I can take my background as a health journalist and parenting writer and all of that, and bring it into this space.

And my book editor—who’s here!—also doesn’t really love parenting books. So this is something we talked about a lot, is not necessarily wanting to be a parenting book, but how do we help parents. But the really beautiful thing that’s happened since the book came out is that I hear from a lot of folks who are not parents who read it and say “This is helping me reparent myself around these issues.”

So I think just framing the conversation as, how would we talk to kids about this? How would we advocate for children about this? that helps people start to think, “Well, what didn’t I get as a kid? Who didn’t stand up for me? Who didn’t advocate for me?”

That gives you permission to start really dealing with some of that and sitting with some of that. That’s been the the cool thing. It is a parenting book, but I think it doesn’t have to be. You can be parenting yourself, and that’s part of it, too.

Helen

This is maybe the big and unanswerable question. But I feel like this is cover-to-cover just chock full of irrefutable scientific studies and rigorously researched and peer reviewed data that shows that raising kids in diet culture is massively more harmful to them than whatever physical effects, primary or secondary, being overweight might do to them. So why is this still even a conversation?

The whole focus in contemporary parenting—I assume this is always with the focus in parenting, but the way that the internet and our cultural trajectories have have allowed things to really become so filtered and focused, this obsession with optimization, right? Like, “I want my kid to have the perfect toy, the perfect book,” like…

Virginia

The best preschool.

Helen

Everything has to be the best. Here is this abundance of data showing how to create someone who is best set up to be emotionally healthy, physically healthy, psychologically healthy. And then our entire society is like, nah, fuck that. Like, what? How do we reconcile that?

Virginia

I mean, it’s money, right? What you just said doesn’t make pharmaceutical companies billions of dollars. Raising children to be emotionally and physically healthy and feel safe in their bodies—that’s not the economy of Denmark. Novo Nordisk is. So that’s the bottom line. Weight loss has always been an incredibly profitable business model. Not a successful business model, right? Like, people lose some weight, but then they regain it. But that’s the profit.

Helen

Well, the business is successful.

Virginia

Yes, the business is successful. The weight loss is not successful, which is what makes the business successful.

So that’s what we’re up against. And it’s really frustrating because to do this book, I talked to so many mainstream obesity researchers, so many doctors, so many people who really do I think in their hearts—not all of them. Not the Novo Nordisk guys—but in their hearts, I think a lot of people are like, “We’re really concerned about children’s health. We’re really concerned about raising rates of diabetes.” And they think they’re approaching this from the right place. Because they just haven’t drilled into the fact that most of the science getting done on this, is rooted in anti-fat bias and capitalism.

So until our entire healthcare system is open to a major reckoning where they look at that, that’s not going to change. We’re always going to be slamming against that brick wall.

Helen

One of the tensions I feel like you try to navigate throughout this book is the relationship between what we can do as individuals, within our families, within our friend groups, and what we can’t do, because there is a system. We can want the system to change, and we can work on our way for the system to change, but the system is much greater than we are.

So as a parent, but also as a person who is one of the most knowledgeable people in the world probably about this whole thing, where does that leave us? Is it really going to make a difference if I have a fat child, if my child grows up to be fat, if I say all of the right things and create exactly the right space for her, and then she still goes out into a world that is equipped to make her feel like crap?

Virginia

The world will tell our kids all of these terrible things. The world tells all of us these terrible things about our bodies. But if you can have this foundation to come back to, and for kids, if they can know that home is a safe space, it does make a difference. Your daughter will know you’re never going to expect her to change her body. And that just gives her more options.

And like, I don’t know about you, but that’s not what I had in the ‘90s. It’s not what I had as a middle schooler and as a high schooler. It was like, “No, obviously, change your body.”

Helen

I can’t believe I’m about to use a sports analogy, because I don’t do that.

Virginia

I’m uncomfortable that we’re going there, but okay.

Helen

I’m also probably going to get the terms wrong. But you know how professional swimmers shave their entire bodies right before the actual meet? But they do all their training with their body hair. So they’ve trained with drag and then when they go out in the world, they’re super strong, and they’re ready to go.

Virginia

Yes! I thought that was a beautiful metaphor for the book, and for the experience it gives you navigating this.

Helen

Walking with weights? I don’t even, I don’t know. So I read this when it first came out, when I was a brand new parent, like I had a seven pound potato.

Virginia

I’m just impressed you were reading at that point.

Helen

I don’t know how much I retained.

Virginia

I was just watching a lot of Gilmore Girls reruns at that stage of my parenting.

Helen

And then I reread it, a month or two ago now, as the parent of a toddler, and it’s been interesting for me to trace the arc of my own relationship to my body, becoming a parent.

I sort of optimistically was like, “It’s not going to change me. I’m just going to poop out a baby and I’ll continue being me.” And it’s not the pregnancy that changed me, or the parenting even that changed me. It’s that there is now a person where I am acutely aware at all times that I am the model. And I share that modeling with my husband. But like, I am a model. And I thought I was really good at not doing negative self talk. And now I’m acutely aware of it. Oh my God, it’s everywhere. Like, I hate myself. What has happened? I didn’t realize how much of this was there. Like, I get Botox, but then I stopped getting Botox because I was, like, she’ll know.

Virginia

Two year olds being famously good at spotting Botox.

Helen

The level of self-parenting that reading parenting books has asked of me has been really healing and exciting, and also a little bit annoying and terrible.

Virginia

That seems right.

Helen

Have you had an arc of change in the two years since the book has been out? Your relationship to the book itself, or the way that you feel like people have reacted to it?

Virginia

I mean, I said to you backstage that I didn’t want to talk about Ozempic because I’m tired of it. [To audience] Don’t worry, if you have Ozempic questions, it’s fine we can do it in the Q&A. But obviously, the big thing that happened in the two years since the book came out is that Ozempic has really dramatically changed the way diet culture and weight loss gets talked about.

So what I will say is that I think it has made two things clear to me. One is what we’re up against, and that this is, again, a multi-billion dollar industry that is relentless. The fact that they’re marketing these drugs to kids, that they’re testing them on six year olds now—it’s very clear that the priorities are not health. The priority is how do we make as much money off these drugs as possible. And that is something I can see and talk about, and that’s fine.

The second thing is more nuanced, but the more I thought about what body liberation means and what we’re fighting for here, the more I realized we have to hold space for the fact that everyone gets to make their own choices about Ozempic. And if that drug is the right drug for you, if weight loss of any kind feels necessary for you, then you will never hear me say that that was not the right choice for you.

And I think I had to start talking about the book and talking to people about the book to really get to that level of nuance. Because what I started to understand is how much we all live with anti-fatness in all these different ways. It shows up in our lives in so many different ways. And so I don’t get to say, you should all be okay with living with this amount of anti-fatness. Until we can fix it for everyone, we all have to put up with this. Because I don’t know everyone’s individual lives. Often weight loss is necessary for fat folks to access medical care or to access clothing or an access job opportunities. And that’s because we’re talking about a systemic set of barriers.

So I think that’s the nuance that I now bring to it. How do we talk about this as a system? How do we critique the system? How do we not critique individuals? That nuance, I think, is something I’m still finding and wrapping my brain around.

Helen

That’s a really tough one because the system, while it exists as its own self perpetuating entity, is created and maintained by individuals, right? They’re not abstract, faceless people. We all contribute in our own ways to all these little systems and then there are the big, horrible architects.

Virginia

Well, it’s like what you said about not wanting your two-year-old to spot your Botox. I so get that, because I have two daughters and any beauty work I engage in in front of them, I feel like I have to disclaim “This is something I’m opting into, but it’s beauty labor, and it’s not fair that women are expected to put on makeup and do our hair like this to go out into the world. And, you notice your father doesn’t have to do any of this to leave the house!” And they’re just like, okay, really mom?

Helen

It’s makeup and it’s Mommy’s discourse and praxis!

Virginia

Also, it makes me happy?! I’m trying to tease out how much of it is my own joy versus the male gaze. I don’t know.

So, I think I like Makeup Now?

Everything I Put On My Face

Helen

Are they even extractable from each other?

Virginia

So yes, all of these individual choices are also us performing in diet culture and performing in patriarchy. But I think we are all allowed to do our own math there, is where I’ve landed.

Helen

It’s kind of amazing to me. I was like, how much this is such a sophomore year stoned thing to realize, but how much everything is just the one thing, right?

Like, diet culture and the patriarchy and homophobia and queerphobia, all of racism, all of it is just the same thing. It’s just like, actually your body doesn’t have any impact on how much respect you deserve.

And it’s wild, how much wrapping that needs to have, and how granular the getting ahead of objections needs to be. I think this is where it gets very sophomore year stoned. But it’s like, once you see it, you see it everywhere. It’s like the spider web is everywhere, and every twitch of a strand twitches everything else. And it’s just like, well, no, this is really easy, actually. Like, it’s super easy. We solved it. We just have to be cool.

Virginia

Just be cool.

Helen

Just be cool. And then it turns out that’s actually incredibly complicated. Like, listen, I know that the entire medical profession has institutionalized fatphobia, but you’re gonna be cool.

Virginia

No, I think that’s completely it.

What I often hear from folks who are on this journey of suddenly seeing the matrix, is you can do this thing where you then are trying to be perfect about not participating in diet culture. But it’s like, no, no. That’s diet culture that told you you had to be perfect. So it’s okay if you’re messing up a lot.

I’ll have readers write in and be like, “I can’t show my four year old Peppa Pig because there’s so much fat shaming of Daddy Pig.” And yeah there sure is, but you also need to put cartoons on so you can make dinner, man. Talk about it later, and if you don’t talk about it this time, it’s fine. There will be other opportunities to name anti-fatness for your children.

So I think we can get perfectionist about wanting to keep our kids in this bubble of not being exposed to all the big, scary things. I mean, now that I have a middle schooler, this is the whole conversation with social media and phones and all of that. And it’s like, okay, yes on one hand, I would love to throw it all into the sea and not have her ever do any of that, as someone who has to spend too much time on Instagram. You know what it’s like, it’s a dark place.

But on the other hand, we need to give them the tools to navigate this. And they’re only going to be able to learn to do that by doing it to a certain extent and by spotting it and having their own relationship to it.

Helen

It reminds me of a concept you come back to a lot the book, this idea that restriction creates obsession and fixation. It’s almost like inoculating yourself to the poison by taking a tiny dose. Like, if we can learn how to function within a society where fatphobia or diet culture is normalized in various places, it allows us to reinforce our sense of what the right way to behave is—not right in a moral sense.

Virginia

What aligns with your values.

Helen

Exactly.

I’m a food writer. I’m a restaurant critic. I’ve been a food writer for decades now. My relationship to food is different in a lot of ways than most people’s. For professional reasons, I have to be obsessed with food. I get paid to be obsessed with food. And that is really bizarre. It often doesn’t come into conflict with my sense of myself and my body, I think because I have a moderately, decently healthy sense of myself and my body.

But when it does come into conflict, it’s wild. I’m like, oh my God. I have to go out to dinner. I have to go to fancy restaurants and eat and it’s the thing that I am praised for. And then simultaneously, it’s also a thing that leads to a bodily result that I am punished for. We’re just having a therapy session.

Virginia

No, but I’m so interested in this.

Helen

I don’t even know what my question is. I’m just talking.

Virginia

Can I ask you a question? Because I’m so curious about this, because it’s quite common for people who work with food or write about food, to be a little weird about food. And it’s understandable because of what you’re saying. Like, there is all this mixed messaging. There’s this need to revel in it. But also…

Helen

There’s this thing in food that if you work in food media, you sort of very quickly understand. It’s never quite said explicitly, but food media is about everything that happens until you swallow. So it’s about preparing, it’s about shopping. It’s about plating, looking at it, taking the bite, tasting the flavors.

But as soon as you swallow, and we start talking about what happens once it hits your body, it becomes health writing. It’s not food writing.

Virginia

This makes so much sense.

Helen

So there’s a really fascinating disconnect. There’s food as an aesthetic and cultural property. And then there’s food as the actual fuel of your body. Or something, even if it’s not fuel, the pleasure, whatever it converts in your body to something physical. And that is just not the purview of food writing or food media.

Virginia

Does that make it easier then? Because you’re like, “I don’t have to think about all of that.” Or is it all still there, just unspoken.

Helen

It makes it easier in the way that compartmentalization does. And like all compartmentalization, it will eventually fail.

Virginia

Right.

This is a personal question, so if you don’t want to answer it, you can reject it. But do you find that your body becomes a subject of discussion as a food writer? Like does that come up for you at all?

Helen

It has historically. Once, a while ago, I was approached by a book agent who was like, “I have a great book idea for you. You should write a nonfiction, personal, first person book about being a fat food writer.” And I was like, well, what about it?

Virginia

That’s an idea that doesn’t make 400 pages.

Helen

And he was sort of like, “Oh, I don’t know.”

Virginia

Just seemed cool, I guess.

Helen

I eat. I put the food into my body. Footnote, the body is fat. This sounds like sour grapes, and I have no idea what my life would have been like if I were thin. But, you know, I’m pretty sure that I’ve probably missed out on some media opportunities. But I don’t think that’s because I’m fat. I think it’s because I have a squishy potato face. So, like, I don’t know.

Virginia

We’ll come back to that later.

Helen

Like, yes and no, right? I think that there are ways in which being a fat person hurts you professionally regardless of the industry that you’re in, right? Like, men who work in food who are fat are considered to be garrulous gourmands, right? They get to be evidence of a life well-lived, a man of appetites, right?

And a woman who’s fat is either going to be totally desexualized and we can go into a big sidebar about this, but the way that women are allowed to be physically embodied as famous food people is really interesting. Either you’re really hot and sexy and fuckable, or you’re a totally desexualized, either mother figure, or a de-gendered kind of Julia Child.

Virginia

Is this explaining all the thin blonde food influencers?

Helen

Yes. But the thing with the thin blonde food influencers is there are also so many thin blonde anything influencers, right?

Virginia

There’s something there though.

I just was curious about this, because we know: Fat people get comments in restaurants. We get comments on what we order, whether it’s our mothers, whether it’s waiters. So I just wondered if that’s something you’re navigating.

Helen

I think that I’ve been very lucky. I can’t think of a specific instance where I felt like I’ve been judged—at least to my awareness, because I’m quite oblivious—for what I’ve ordered or how I eat.

Physically, I can say like I’m a small fat and going to restaurants can be physically difficult, especially in New York, because the tables are so close together, and my ass is not even that huge. But my ass is bigger than they design restaurants for. I have knocked over countless water glasses with my hips and going through the tables or trying to navigate fixed booths. The physical architecture of restaurants is something I’m very, very aware of.

I wrote a thing a couple years ago about chairs with high weight limits and why don’t more restaurants go for that, especially once outdoor dining started happening during the first few years of the pandemic. I was so furious by how many outdoor dining structures were using either those nightmarish Tolix chairs with the side that’s that just like, “would you like to have your sciatic nerve cut in half? We can provide that.”

Virginia

And you’re sliding off the whole time.

Helen

Or just the cheapo IKEA folded half chairs that have a weight limit of 14 ounces. And they’re just a nightmare. And I understand that restaurants are among the most precarious businesses with just no safety net. But it is always really interesting to me to notice which restaurants put thought into accessibility broadly, right? Not just for customers of different body sizes, but also physical accessibility. A lot of restaurants, due to the size of their businesses and things like that, are often exempt from ADA requirements, for example. So that’s been more of a thing than eating in public.

I think in terms of eating in public, I just do it. I like food a lot.

Virginia

I mean, it’s great.

Helen

I have felt shame, but most of that I would locate in, like, high school.

Virginia

I mean, you don’t have to write the fat food writer memoir. But, I do think that representation matters. And you being a public figure in this job is really great.

Helen

To bridge our two worlds, the thing with food is, it is a source of pleasure. And I think that the way that we pathologize bodies, and the way that we use the word wellness and all of its insidious and popular meanings, fundamentally sidesteps the fact that food is a source of joy, both in terms of the flavors and textures, and the actual food itself and the act of eating together.

It’s something that you talk about in the book, is the mental health effect of just participating with your friends eating a birthday cake together instead of freaking out about the sugar content. It is important to be connected to one another, and we can write as many listicles as a society as we want, about ways to hang out without food or like whatever diet culture things people want to do. There are so many of them. Diet culture is always like, “go for a walk.” But it’s better to go for a walk with a popsicle.

Virginia

A walk and a treat! A walk and a treat!

Helen

And there’s a reason for that! Like, evolutionarily. And we don’t have to do our biology, right? If there’s one thing that being human means, it is that your intellect is allowed to supersede your biological impulses. However, in the same way that hunger is our most powerful impulse, the relief of hunger is a powerful mode of connection. When we relieve our hunger with other people, we become connected to them. This isn’t woo, this is like neuroscience. Eating together is actually connection. To try to fabricate ways to connect without that because we are scared of eating, is being scared of being together.

Virginia

100 percent. I love that.

Helen

I feel very passionate!

Virginia

Maybe that’s your book! And just to bring it back to the parenting conversation, this is what I see parents struggling with all the time because there’s so much pressure on how we’re supposed to feed our kids in this really hyper perfect way. Like the rainbow bento box lunches.

What Instagram Gets Wrong About Feeding Your Kids

Helen

Oh my God, yeah.

Virginia

And family dinner. There is so much pressure on the concept of family dinner needing to be executed in this certain way. And it really is just what Helen was saying. All that needs to be happening is two people are sharing a meal. Doesn’t matter what the food is. What matters is that you’re having that opportunity for connection.

And you know, one of the lessons of working on this book that I’ve been able to take into my own life is really giving no effs anymore about nutrition with my kids, which I get a lot of criticism for on the Internet. And I’m comfortable with that.

Why Are Men and Viking Grandmas

Because what I want my kids coming away from the dinner table with is, number one, their body felt safe, and was treated with dignity and respect. So no means no, if you don’t want to eat something.

And number two, that we had some opportunity for connection. Which, again, I have a middle schooler. Like, it’s hard to have connection with them a lot of the time, and they don’t want to talk about their day at the dinner table. But if the food is something she likes, that’s going to get me closer!

And it’s hard, because even for me doing this work and believing all of that quite passionately, there are a lot of nights where I look at our dinner table and think, if the Internet could see this…. Like, I’m failing a lot of the time. And it is what it is. But we have that core connection.

Helen

Also, it doesn’t have to be every day, right? Sitting down together as a family, like, whatever, the research is unimpeachable. But also it’s not every single day forever, right?

I don’t know how you would do a study for this, but I suspect that what’s more important than actually sitting together at a table is being the kind of family that would eat together and cultivating the kind of environment where you all think, should we all sit together at a table? Like, that’s the thing that really.

Virginia

Which, in order to be that kind of family, sometimes that means we’re going to watch TV while we eat dinner.

Helen

It’s going to be at the coffee table, right? But it’s a table.

Virginia

We’re watching Tangled for the 900th time or whatever, because that’s the energy level we all have, and that’s what’s letting us connect as a family tonight.

Helen

I think we’re going to take audience questions now.

So I have this very adorable niece, a little doll of a girl. And one year, when I went to visit her, she had just gotten much bigger. Hefty. And I felt pain, and I swear on a Bible, it’s not because I care what she looks like, but I felt that it was going to make her life harder just because of thin being the ideal. And when she gets a little older and she cares about things, wanting to be attractive or whatever. That she wouldn’t like herself. So obviously, that’s a terrible societal thing, but assuming it wasn’t going to change by the time she grew up. I just I was surprised at how much myself, I wish she had not gotten bigger. So is this another thing that you talk about in the book? That it’s not just “you shouldn’t be fat,” but it can come out of caring for the girl?

Virginia

I think that is most parents of kids in bigger bodies, most adults in the lives of kids with bigger bodies, it’s not “I’m repulsed to look at you.” Sometimes it is that. I’m not going to say that’s not a reality of anti-fatness. But much more, it’s “I love you so much, and I’m worried your life will be harder.”

That is a totally understandable place to start, because you know the world, and you know that the lives of fat people are harder. But the problem is, if we then say, “So, let’s change her body to make life easier,” we’ve told her that the bullies are right, that her body is the problem to solve. And that’s not the message.

The message is your body is not a problem. We live in a world that’s going to give you a different message. I’m here to protect you. I’m here to advocate with you. What do you need from me? We love and support this kid in the body they have and we work on the world. Because that’s what needs to change.

Well, I must say that to me, makes your book seem very important. That comment comes from someone who’s as old as your mother!

Helen

Thank you. This is a really important book. If any of you haven’t read it, you should read it cover to cover. It’s great. It’s really good.

I think it’s totally cool to be the age of my mother, by the way. Many of our mothers—probably your mother, too!—were raised with an incredibly restrictive notion of what a woman was allowed to be.

Virginia

I mean, it’s just multiple decades of diet culture and patriarchy.

Helen

Not just diet culture, but like, how do you get a husband? Because you have to have a husband. How do you keep your husband? How do you maintain your household? I look upon my mother and her relationship to her body to food with a lot of generosity, and a lot of compassion.

I feel lucky that I get to have the relationship to my body and to food and to the culture of food that I get to have, and I see how much space she’s covered in the course of her life, accommodating to a world that has changed around her.

Virginia

I have lots of readers who are my mother’s age, and I love hearing from women in their 60s, 70s who are doing this work and learning. It’s not like it’s ever too late. We all deserve body liberation. Thank you.

So kind of related to that question, I have a two and a half year old daughter and I have a lovely mother in law in her 70s who is really a kind person. She comes with a lot of behaviors that are remnants of being brought up in a time when thinness is really, really important. Things like she has to eat off a small plate, and she has to use a small fork, she has to eat her bread last. These are things that my daughter is seeing, and as much compassion as I have for my mother in law, I’m sort of at an impasse where I don’t know if the next move is to double down and try to fortify my child against the potential impact of those behaviors, or try to talk to my mother in law about those behaviors, which feels kind of cruel because she’s in her 70s. And in a way, she’s been hurt by the same system that’s like getting ready to hurt my my kid.

Virginia

What I always come down to is the compassion you’re talking about. Lead with the compassion. If you’re watching this person enact this on themselves, I don’t think it’s your job to ask them to change. Maybe as your daughter gets older, you can debrief with her after a visit. Like, “Isn’t it kind of sad that grandma always uses that tiny plate? I like using a bigger plate for cake. I get more cake that way.” You debrief with your kid, so your kid sees what grandma’s doing and knows that’s not what’s expected of them, that’s not normal.

And with your mother-in-law, you just continue to have a loving relationship with her, and make it clear in any way you can that you don’t expect this from her.

Where I suggest talking directly to the grandparent is if they’re saying things about your child’s body. That’s different. Then you intervene and advocate on behalf of your kid.

I’m a parent of a 16 year old, the child of an 80 year old. So those are fascinating conversations. But the parenting in the age of diet culture, I feel like it could also be parenting and teaching in the age of diet culture. A lot of my listening was as an educator in terms of, like, it’s not exclusively a parenting book. It’s also a guide for teachers. Can you speak to that?

Virginia

I feel really strongly that this is a book I want in the hands of as many teachers as possible. There’s a whole chapter on anti-fatness in schools. It’s systemic, with the kinds of health class calorie counting assignments that come up. But it’s also the culture of the schools, the way teachers might casually reference their own diets. It’s when they’re putting together a syllabus, how many books center fat protagonists? Not that many, because we don’t have enough books like that. (There are more, a lot of them are sold here!) But, that’s a work in progress, especially depending what age you’re teaching.

So I think the book is a tremendous resource for teachers. And there are several teachers quoted in that chapter who have put their own resources on the internet, and I think are making efforts to connect with other educators. So I love it when teachers come to events. Thank you!

I’m a pediatric dietitian, and I have your book on my desk so medical professionals know what I’m about when they pass by. I have families come to me, and I feel like they’re very much expecting me to say one thing, and then they’re kind of blown away when I don’t, and it’s also exciting in that way.

But my question is, when I have teen patients, it’s easy to talk to the teens separately and then talk to parents separately about how we talk about food and how we can change that at home. But when I have kids who are under 13, and I’m working with their parents and the kids in the same room together, what are your recommendations for navigating changing how we talk about food and body image? When I have the parent in front of me and I have the young kiddo in front of me too.

Virginia

That is really tricky. You have a really important job, and thank you.

I think whatever age kid you’re dealing with, it’s great for them to hear you saying what you’re going to say about food. If you’re presenting the idea of food as nourishment and pleasure, and you’re pushing back against weight loss plans and all of that, then anything you’re saying to the parent, even if the parent is getting uncomfortable or arguing with you, like, it’s great that the kid is getting to hear this perspective. So I think I wouldn’t worry too much about filtering.

Just also coming back to giving the kid as many opportunities to feel empowered about it as possible, whatever choices make sense to give to the kid. And the framework you’re talking about. I think it’s kind of great you’re having the conversation in front of the kid, honestly, although I can imagine there are conversations that are really challenging in that job.

Can I break the Ozempic rule? Celebrities and pop culture and idols have always been celebrated for being thin, but this is the first time there’s been this $1,000 a month drug that makes people thinner. So then, thinness and its relationship to class and celebrity has changed. So like, I’m here to get the book. I haven’t read it, but. Do you have any thoughts on how that changes how people idolize celebrities? Or is it the same thing?

Virginia

I think Ozempic is just making obvious what has always been true, which is that a celebrity body is the product of time and money. More time, more money, some genetic luck, more money. Any thin celebrity is just a physical manifestation of all the money that has gone into all of the whatever they’re doing to maintain that body.

So in a way, I really appreciate those conversations about who is taking what drug, because it just makes all of this more obvious. It makes the anti-fatness more obvious. It makes the fact that anti-fatness intersects with classism more obvious. Because when we see the media writing these glowing pieces about “soon anyone can be thin!” it’s like, well, no. There are always going to be fat people. We’re just going to see fatness stratified by class even more.

Helen

This isn’t quite what you were saying, but from a food media perspective, I feel like there was a story, maybe it’s in the New York Times a couple of weeks ago that was, like, “the rise of Ozempic and these drugs mean the end of the snack food industry.”

And the answer is no. The way that that these drugs are talked about is so wildly divorced from reality. If you’ve read any of the actual literature about these drugs and how they work, and what kind of impact they have on people’s behaviors and thought processes and hormonal reactions—none of is a silver bullet, right?

Even if you take it every week, some people don’t lose weight. You still have to decrease your calorie consumption, increase your exercise. Ozempic isn’t the drug that the narrative wants it to be. I think the drug itself is neutral.

Virginia

It’s a great diabetes medication!

Helen

And I read something recently about how it seems to be having extraordinary promise for dealing with substance abuse disorder and there are lots of interesting effects that are coming out. As a drug, I think it is morally neutral, the way all drugs are morally neutral.

But the narrative around it is being constructed in ways that tells us a lot about our fatphobia, and diet culture, and the way we hierarchize bodies and the accessibility of those bodies. I think that your question cuts exactly to the core of this. It is always easier to have the ideal body when you are rich. And it is always harder to have the ideal body if you have to focus on anything other than attaining and maintaining that body. So I think I would take everything with a grain of salt, unless it is actually about a scientific study. Because, like, no, Doritos is not going to go out of business.

Virginia

I have faith we can keep Doritos alive. Maybe a government bailout. I don’t know.

Helen

The reason there are not plus sizes in store at Old Navy is not because there’s not a demand for them. It’s because old Navy has tried to create a narrative. The realities of demand and money and supply in human bodies has almost nothing to do with this story that is trying to be told about the way that capital is flowing.

"We Couldn't Have a Campaign That Was Just For Fat People."

Thank you so much for your book. I am a health teacher in lower school and middle school. I read it last year, and I feel like I’m armed with such knowledge and permission to teach my classes the way that I do. And I have to talk about so many other things. Like, I talk about stress and regulation and gender and sexuality and all the other sex ed stuff too, but obviously, I really want to talk about food and nutrition. A lot of the kids’ parents come to me and they say, okay, so you’re going to help me stop my kid eating sugar. And I just say, after having read that book, I go, I will not be doing that.

I remember you saying something in the book that kids are always getting so many confusing messages about food, right? The clean your plate club, but don’t get too fat. And that just creates this swirling whorl of confusing messages for children. I want to be a safe adult where I’m the health teacher that literally never uses the words “healthy food” or “unhealthy food.” But I also know that I’m very much coming up against the messages that they are getting at home. So where do you feel like is the line between a cool teacher that is a safe place to open their minds to all of these restrictive messages, where’s the line between that and like just being another person where they’re like, I don’t know what the truth is. My Health teacher saying this, I have my parents saying that.

Virginia

Kind of like our pediatric dietitian friend over there, I’m just so glad you guys are doing this and saying these things to the kids. This is what I am hoping will happen more and more. And I think there are absolutely going to be kids who are confused, right? Who are like, “But my mom is saying we’re going to the gym every day after school, and this doesn’t make sense.”

But there is going to be some kid in your class who really needs an adult in their life to say this. And what you say is going to plant a seed that is going to help them navigate what they’re dealing with at home, or what’s to come. You have this amazing opportunity to be the safe adult. And I think you could invite conversation about what other messages they’re getting, not because you’re going to necessarily tell them that’s wrong or argue against it, but to encourage them to start thinking a little more critically, and build some of those skills. So asking, does this make sense to you? How do you feel when this happens? I think that would be like a great opportunity to just have them start exploring the messages.

Because what I find with the kids I interact with is they are so good at calling this out once they have a few talking points about this. They’re spotting it everywhere. So I think they’ll be off and running with it for sure.

I have a five year old, and this kind of ties into your first book, The Eating Instinct. She has just been diagnosed with ARFID, which, for everyone who doesn’t know what ARFID is, it’s basically like, she just doesn’t feel hungry or thirsty. And I’ve been trying to follow her cues, and if she doesn’t want to eat, she doesn’t have to eat, kind of thing. And now I’m at this point where they’re like, no, she has to eat because she can’t grow if she doesn’t eat. And I am trying to reckon with all of the wonderful body autonomy and like not ever weighing her except for at the pediatricians or whatever. And now I’m supposed to weigh her every two weeks, and I have to count every calorie that she eats. And I know that you went through an even more extreme version with with your first daughter.

So I just wanted to know, as your kid has gotten older, and she had to go through the trauma of the tube feeding, which, luckily, my kid is not at that level. But like, I don’t want to cause a problem while trying to fix a problem.

Virginia

You’re doing a great job.

And for anyone who hasn’t read my first book, The Eating Instinct, what launched me into all of this in a lot of ways, is that my older child was on a feeding tube for the first two years of her life, and went through very much what this person is talking about.

And what I can say to you now as a parent of an 11-year-old is: You aren’t messing it up. It’s going to be okay. You are in the acute stages of something, and you need to get your child fed, and sometimes that’s going to feel like you’re doing the opposite of honoring her body autonomy, but you’re keeping her thriving, and that’s what matters the most.

Because you’re going to be coming at it from this framework of, whenever I can, I’m supporting her body autonomy. Whatever choice I can give her, I am giving her that choice. I’ll put her on the scale, but she won’t see the number. You can keep that talk away from her. She’s going to get through this, she deserves to have a great relationship with food. If that means she eats four things or 40 things in her life, then you’re doing an amazing job.

"They Say 'Failure to Thrive' but Moms Hear 'Failure To Feed.'"

Helen

One more question!

I also have two young daughters, and it’s very challenging trying to both raise them in a way that you know you can eat whatever you want, and you know food is neutral, and there’s no good or bad or unhealthy healthy. But sometimes I’ll look at what my daughter has eaten today, just cookies or just foods that are generally thought of, that you’re supposed to have less of or something like that. And I don’t know that I think that’s so bad, but I feel like I get faced with, like, well, don’t you care about her health? And like, isn’t this bad for her nutrition?

And I’m like, I don’t think she’s going to get scurvy? But I don’t know where that line is. Like, am I’m overdoing it on, eat whatever you want, and actually putting her health at risk. Because I kind of keep going out to, like, I don’t know, you can have candy for breakfast. Like, that’s not going to have a major health effect.

Virginia

I mean, as you just heard from this other mom, and me: Having a kid who eats is a privilege and something to be celebrated and treasured. So that’s our starting point. And I did really dive into the pediatric nutrition research for the book. There’s a lot more to it, in the book. The biggest thing I took away from the research is that what matters for kids’ nutritional needs is having enough to eat. That’s what matters the most.

So if your kid is getting enough to eat, they will, over the course of a week, get enough nutrition. I have one child, I have to look sometimes, over the course of several weeks, and then be like, oh yeah, there was that green vegetable a couple Thursdays ago. They will hit their nutritional needs. There will be more variety than you see when we look at that day that’s only cookies. I call those snake days, where they just eat massive quantities of one food. You know, like, how a snake eats the whole rodent and then doesn’t eat for like, a week. That is a normal eating pattern for a lot of children. So there’s a lot in the book that will give you more facts if you need that. But I think the biggest takeaway is: If kids have enough to eat, if they know their body is safe and loved in their home, then we’re all doing a great job.

Helen

If I can, with no expertise, weigh in on another aspect of your question, where you’re like, “But people say, are you poorly parenting your child?” Like, who the fuck are those people?

My husband is right here.

Virginia

Okay, we’ll talk after.

Helen

Sir, are you a registered dietitian? No? Okay!

Virginia

I think we solved that!

Helen

Thank you guys. This was incredible. This was awesome. This book is amazing. If you haven’t read it, you should read it. And if you’ve already read it, you should read it again.

Virginia

Valentine’s Day is coming! Buy one for your loved ones.

Helen

Nothing says I love you more than healing your own relationship to your body and food so that you can pass that to your child!

The Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith (follow me on Instagram) and Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus, and Big Undies.

The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe.

Our theme music is by Farideh.

Tommy Harron is our audio engineer.

Thanks for listening and for supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism!

You’re listening to Burnt Toast!

We are Virginia Sole-Smith and Corinne Fay, and it’s time for your February Indulgence Gospel.

Today we’re updating you on our great experiment: How did we do with 30 days of NO AMAZON? We’re going to get into:

⭐️ Why did we quit Amazon in the first place?

⭐️ Is quitting Amazon a diet—or at least, diet culture-adjacent?

⭐️ What was our biggest fail?

⭐️ Will we keep going???

To hear the full story, you'll need to be a paid Burnt Toast subscriber.

To hear more, visit patreon.com/virginiasolesmith

This episode contains affiliate links. Shopping our links is a great way to support Burnt Toast! You’ll find all of the links aggregated here.

Virginia

Okay, before we report on how we did, we need to give a little context, in case folks missed the episode where we announced the challenge.

So Corinne, do you want to talk about why we did this?

Corinne

I think it originated in the post-election chaos. We were feeling like we wanted to do something to step away from the billionaire oligarchs who have taken control of our country.

Virginia

Yep, yep, yep, definitely.

Corinne

And also at that time, there was a call to boycott Amazon because of union stuff.

Virginia

And then Bezos gave Trump a bunch of money for the inauguration. There was just a whole bunch of Amazon setting the world on fire stuff all at once. So it felt like a tipping point for some of us.

Corinne

We also had recently reviewed all of our 2024 Butters. And it was like, wow, some of these shopping ones are not so good.

Virginia

Yes.

Corinne

Let’s re-examine our shopping habits.

Virginia

I think I’m in a perpetual I-should-reexamine-my-shopping-habits state of being. But this is the first time I’ve taken a concrete step towards changing my shopping habits. So whatever else happens, I am proud of myself for taking that step. That was big for me.

Corinne

We talked about this a little bit in the chat, but we just also want to acknowledge here that quitting Amazon is not something everyone can or wants to do. We are not at all trying to suggest that this is any kind of moral high ground, or something everyone needs to do.

Virginia

That chat was very interesting, because some folks were mad at us for not having done this sooner. There was definitely that vibe of “Oh, you’re just getting to this party,” which, okay, fair note. We have Amazon-ed for a long time. But also, it’s maybe not the most helpful call-in to be like, “Why didn’t you do this already?” Like, we’re here now. We’re trying!

But then lots of other folks—I think understandably—felt threatened by the prospect of us doing this. No buy challenges of any kind can trigger a diet mentality for lots of us. And if that is true for you, this will not be a healthy thing for you to do.

Which is okay! There are other ways you can make positive change in the world. This is not the best, or only, way.

Corinne

Some of the folks who spoke up about a No Amazon Challenge not being a good fit for them are some disabled folks and folks who live in rural areas where getting stuff delivered to your house is really challenging any other way. We completely hear that.

Virginia

And I also just want to say: If you are a new parent, I really firmly believe that Amazon is filling in for our lack of structural supports. Especially in the infant and toddlerhood stages. I Amazon Primed so many things to try to make my baby sleep in those years, none of which were particularly helpful. But it speaks to the larger issue of how little support we have for new moms trying to make babies sleep. So the $90 bassinet thing feels like it’s going to be the answer, and it probably isn’t.

Corinne

Yeah, I think that comes up around a lot of different life situations, like illness, taking care of ill people, or ill parents. Any caregiving work. It definitely can be a coping mechanism, or just a helpful tool.

Virginia

You’re overwhelmed and buying this thing is a problem you can solve, unlike whatever larger issues you can’t solve. We can all reflect on whether this is something we can do, or want to do, but it’s okay if this is not the right fit for you, especially right now. It might be in a few years or in six months.

Now let’s get into it. Corinne, how did you do?

Corinne

It was such an interesting exercise. I think a lot of the time, I found myself feeling confused. Like, this is something I would normally buy on Amazon. If I’m not buying it on Amazon, do I actually need this? And one thing about Amazon that I just hadn’t thought a ton about before, is—it’s kind of reliable. When I was thinking about ordering something from another website, I would just find myself thinking, “Is this a real website? Is this actually going to come? Do they have a return policy?” Like, what’s happening?

Virginia

There’s an infrastructure and a predictability to Amazon that we’ve all been trained to expect. They’re able to do it because of all of the terrible things they’re doing, exploiting their workers. That’s how this stuff shows up so fast. It’s not good, but we are conditioned to expect it, and then it feels like this scary leap of faith to be, like, two weeks shipping? I mean, who knows?

Corinne

And because they’re so big, they can deal with it when stuff goes wrong. If something arrives broken, or it’s the wrong thing, they just credit you back really quickly.

Virginia

Right, because they’re taking it from the supplier.

I mean, I think the main reason it didn’t feel more restrictive for me was because of Target. And so I want to fully own that I didn’t divest from big box shopping. Many things that I would have bought on Amazon, I bought on Target.

But I do think I still bought somewhat less. There’s a category of product that only get on Amazon, where it’s like a very specific solution to a niche problem that you’ve sort of made up. For example, my worst offense—I mean, there are so many! But one I remember from last year is when I was getting really annoyed, because when my kids ate snacks on the couch, they made a mess. And I was like, “We need little tray tables for them to eat their snacks on.” And so I went on this whole research mission, trying to buy tray tables. And I ended up buying these tables that have compartments that are designed to hold a cup and a remote control and whatever else. And we have never used them because the compartments are weird shapes that don’t fit anything. It was just an absolute waste of time. Like, it was just an absolute waste of money. It was this over-designed, overly complicated solution to a problem that I could just solve by putting a towel on the couch.

And there’s just so much on Amazon that you can be like, “I’m going to go down this rabbit hole and find this really specific, weird product that’s going to change my life.” And most of them don’t. Target doesn’t have quite that same volume of merchandise, so it prevented me from making some purchases like that. Which I’m really glad about.

But I needed to buy a printer because my printer broke, and I bought it from Target instead. And I was like, well, planet, did I do anything for you with that? Probably not. But here we are.

Corinne

I think for me, it was the the inability to just buy something really quickly from Amazon kind of made me question buying stuff in general a bit more. I feel like I’ve bought almost nothing aside from food, which we can also get into. It’s been really interesting.

Virginia

I agree. I didn’t buy nothing, but I definitely bought less.

I will also admit I was so panicked before we started, that I texted you on December 31 and was like, “I did my Last Supper order.” I panic-bought a whole bunch of random shit from Amazon on December 31. So also, I may not have felt as deprived, because I think I may need to do it longer.

Corinne

To be fair, I think I actually started quite a bit early because I was traveling.

Virginia

Oh, yeah. I’m coming up on a month now, and you’ve been doing it for six weeks probably.

Corinne

One thing that I wanted to look back on was how much I spent on Amazon last January, and the most and least amounts I spent at Amazon last year, 2024. Last January, I looked back, I spent $86 at Amazon.

Virginia

What!

Corinne

But wait! Then I looked at what month would have been the highest? And I was like, probably November, because that’s when I do a lot of shopping. It was $600!

Virginia

There we are.

Corinne

And when I look at that, I’m like, I have no idea what I spent that on. Like, I don’t know what that $86 was last January nor do I know exactly what the $600 was in November. I can only think of a couple of things.

Virginia

A heated mattress pad, I know is one of them.

Corinne

Yes, a heated mattress pad.

Virginia

Should we talk about what we were tempted to buy?

Corinne

It’s that category of stuff you were talking about. The first thing I wanted to buy was an adjustable phone stand.

Virginia

That is such an Amazon purchase.

Corinne

Yeah. And I probably would use that. But I have a phone tripod, which is the same thing. And I have a laptop stand. But I definitely would have bought that if I’d been using Amazon.

Virginia

That’s a good one.

I needed a hygrometer to check the humidity in my house, because I live in a frozen tundra and we’ve been sick. So I did buy a humidifier for my bedroom, not on Amazon. And then I realized I didn’t know whether it was doing anything, and that I needed a hygrometer to measure the humidity in my bedroom. And I acquired both of those from non-Amazon sources. But I was like, do other places even sell a hygrometer? Yes, Target sold one for like $11.

So that was one I got elsewhere. I got the printer elsewhere. I needed refills for my razor, bird seed I think I would have ordered off Amazon in the past, which is ridiculous. That’s so heavy to ship! I went to Tractor Supply Company and bought it in person, which is how you should do it.

A big one, though, that I had a stumbling block over was when we all got the flu. We were running low on masks, and I needed more masks because we were trying to mask around the sick person so we did not all catch it. And I was like, Oh, I’ve always only bought masks on Amazon, like, it’s the cheap way to get, like, a big pack. And I ended up buying a 10 pack from my local drugstore when I went to pick up our prescriptions. And it was fine, I’m glad to support the local business, but this was the more expensive way to do this. Masks are disposable. I do need more than ten in my life. So I still need to find a way to bulk order masks that’s not Amazon. I’m sure it exists, but there’s a mental load to solving these problems.

What else is on your list?

Corinne

A safety deposit box.

Virginia

I love how random these are. I love it.

Corinne

Adjustable phone stand was definitely from TikTok. Safety deposit box was because of the fires. I was like, “Oh shit, I do not have all my documents in a safety deposit box.” I would definitely just order that from Amazon. And now I’m like, I know I can get it in person, but I haven’t done it yet.

Virginia

Yes, well to be fair, we have a safety deposit box with our passports and stuff in it and I lost the key to it a long time ago, so it’s never locked. So in a fire, I have to remember to run it out holding it closed, because it’s like a suitcase. I always picture that I’m going to pick it up, but it’s all just going to fly everywhere.

Corinne

Might be time for you to get a new one.

Virginia

But, like, I’m not going to, right? Because it works. It’s a fireproof box. Maybe you just leave it? Is that the idea? Because it’ll survive the fire?

Corinne

Well, TikTok was saying a lot of them are only made to withstand like 10 minutes or something.

Virginia

Okay, so you do have to try to grab it.

Corinne

I think you’re supposed to.

Virginia

Okay, well, that’s definitely something I’m not going to remember in the moment of a crisis, but I’m glad we had this talk anyway.

Okay, so safety deposit box you still need to get.

Corinne

Yeah, I also wanted to buy a sewing gauge, which is a little ruler with things you can slide on it to hem stuff. I ended up getting that from Joann’s but, it did take longer. It wasn’t an immediate thing.

Virginia

So I have two things I didn’t end up buying, that I would have previously bought on Amazon.

One was I did the book event at Split Rock last weekend, and we wanted to have microphones, which the bookstore doesn’t have on hand. So I emailed with Tommy about what would be good microphones, he was like, “It’s hard to get this done in under a week off Amazon!”

So we ended up borrowing them from the library. And I was like, this is better. Nobody needed to spend $400 on a microphone that’s going to get used three times. Great community effort!

There is one that’s still haunting me though. This is a big one. I’m out of Marmite. This is an essential British condiment. I have it every morning on a bagel or toast, butter and Marmite. And it’s hard to find in American grocery stores. And I have Amazoned it in the past, and I’ve just been without it now, for like, three weeks.

Corinne

There has got to be somewhere else you can order that online.

Virginia

I know but it’s weirdly hard to find! Target doesn’t carry it. My local grocery stores don’t.

Corinne

Well and that’s the thing where then I feel like you’re buying from some website where you’re like, “Is this legit?”

Virginia

And is it also just Amazon, right? That’s the other thing. Amazon is a complicated web. I think for now, my solution is going to be to go to my mom’s this weekend and steal some Marmite from her. Because she always has it on hand. But I need a US hook up on the marmite.

Corinne

So here are my two fails.

One, I haven’t bought yet. But there’s a book that I want to read on my Kindle, and my library doesn’t have it. And so I at some point I am going to just buy it from the Kindle store. Like, I’ve been waiting because we’re doing this thing, but I’m like, I’m just going to buy it from the Kindle store.

Virginia

You can’t just buy a hard copy?

Corinne

I want to have it on my Kindle. I have a hard copy. It’s really thick. I want a Kindle copy.

Virginia

Oh, interesting. Okay.

Corinne

Then my other fail—I’ve also been doing no Whole Foods, since they are owned by Amazon. This was much harder for me. I’ve just probably gotten grocery shopping less. And I have been leaning heavily on Instacart. I have this thing where going to Whole Foods is a treat. Any other grocery shopping is a chore. And so if I have to go somewhere else, I’m like, “Oh, I’ll just Instacart.” But Instacart is also just so flawed! The shoppers are so bad. The other day, I was like, oh, I’m I’ll just Instacart it. And then they didn’t have any of the ingredients, Now I have to pay to cancel the order, it was just so frustrating.

And then my real fail was when my friend was visiting, we wanted to make a specific brisket recipe. We went to three grocery stores, and none of them had brisket. And I ended up just going to Whole Foods and buying it.

Virginia

I mean, that feels pretty mundane, on the level of fails. You’re not going to buy a brisket every week.

Corinne

I mean, it was fine. I made the decision, you know? I was like, ah, well, I tried. And everything else I didn’t buy from Whole Foods.

Virginia

You tried, and that is one specialty item that might be hard to find at other grocery stores. You tried them first, and then you ended up at Whole Foods for one thing. I feel like that’s not that big of a fail.

Corinne

Did you have a fail?

Virginia

I did have a fail. I forgot about Prime Video.

It’s on my children’s iPads, and on our TV, and is a way that they watch a lot of shows. And then I thought about it, and I was like, okay, I could have a conversation with them, and ask the kids, “Do you guys want to participate in the challenge?” But I didn’t do that. You can argue that I should have, but I failed.

And then the moment of real failure was last Saturday night, when Amy and I were leaving to go to our bookstore event for Fat Talk. We were leaving the children home alone with the middle schoolers were in charge, and the plan that we had sold them on, to ensure three hours of peace, was that they were going to stream Wicked.

So I had to purchase Wicked from Prime Video. So that’s $30 I spent on Prime Video. And it is also on Apple TV, but I didn’t have the login and we were trying to get out the door, and the kids are like, “Where’s Wicked?!” And I was just like, Yeah, fine. Fuck it. I’ll get it on Prime Video. Amy was like, “Do you want to log in as me? Because I already got it.” I was like, it’s fine. We’re going to want to have it.

Corinne

My friend was also like, “What if I buy the brisket?”

Virginia

Yeah, totally. So Wicked was my downfall. And I feel okay about that, because it wasn’t for me, it was for the kids. It was my babysitter for the evening. And I didn’t actually feel that guilty! Because I feel like overall, we’re really trying and being more thoughtful, and that’s the goal of the challenge, not to achieve Amazon perfection.

I mean, it did feel a little ironic that I spent $30 at Amazon before going to do an independent bookstore event. I didn’t love that. But I certainly spend more at that independent bookstore, so I’m going to trust that comes out in the wash.

So what do we think? Are we going to keep going? Are we going to do something different?

Corinne

I think what I’m going to do is probably continue to not have Prime and I think that will force me to be a little bit more selective about what I’m actually buying from Amazon.

I think I will probably go back to shopping from Whole Foods.

Virginia

I feel like having to change your grocery store is such an emotional thing. I don’t want you to have to do that.

Corinne

It’s not like I go to Whole Foods every week, sometimes I go to the regular grocery store here, which is Smith’s. And then when I do go to Smiths, I’m like, everything is so much cheaper. But I do sort of feel like sometimes Whole Foods has better produce and obviously, like, brisket.

Virginia

I don’t shop at Whole Foods only because there’s not one within an hour of me. If I had one, I’d probably shop there. And when I went to your Whole Foods with you last year, I was like, “Well this is a magical grocery experience.”

Corinne

It just feels more like a treat.

Virginia

Everything there was a treat! I mean, we were also buying treats while we were there, but I get it. That’s hard to give up.

I think I’m going to keep the app deleted off my phone. I didn’t miss that at all. That was totally fine. I like challenging myself to find things somewhere else. That part was good.

The two things I haven’t decided about are Prime Video, again, because that’s for my kids. I don’t really watch stuff on Prime Video, but it impacts my kids, so I have to talk to them about that.

And then… my protein powder. My workaround was that was in my December 31 Last Supper order. I got three so we would last through the month, and I wouldn’t be tempted. We go through so many, I don’t know how many we go through a month.

Corinne

What brand is it?

Virginia

It’s Orgain Chocolate Protein Powder. I mean, I’m sure I can get it somewhere else. I haven’t done the homework yet to figure that out. Because I do Subscribe and Save on it, I’m getting it pretty cheap on Amazon, which matters at the volume I go through it. I’m like, “Do I keep my Prime membership for one Subscribe and Save item?” That feels dumb. I recognize that.

So I need to solve the protein powder thing. And then I think I could let go of my Amazon Prime account. The kids could watch Prime Video on their dad’s prime account, but our household would otherwise be divested.

I guess what I’m also wondering is, and we have not done the reporting on this: If I’m mostly just switching over to shopping from Target or Instacart, other chain big box solutions, is it making a meaningful difference in the world? I suspect the answer to that is no. Because I do think all billionaires are evil. They’re all going to be problematic. We’re kidding ourselves to think that Target hasn’t done something egregious.

So it feels like the bigger work to do is figuring out how to divest more from this type of shopping as a category—convenience-based shopping, convenience-based online shopping. And I’m naming that that’s the big work to do. I don’t know that I’m ready to do that big work. I don’t know that I am quite ready to take that on, but I am thinking about that.

Corinne

It’s just interesting also to think about those kind of purchases like, the tray table or whatever. When you’re feeling that type of stress, of “I need to solve this problem,” how often do you actually have something that would work? Like, you have a towel or you have a sheet pan you could put down.

Virginia

My house so full of stuff. I have so many things.

Corinne

Yes. So it has just been interesting, at least for me, to think about just the immediacy. Do I need this in two days? Or do I just want it in two days? Like, yeah, I haven’t gotten a safety deposit box. I should get one. That’s something an adult should have. And also, like, it’s okay, but I don’t have one yet.

Virginia

Agreed. All of that is really challenging,

Corinne

Amazon creates this kind of fake urgency, where you’re like, I need to have this thing now.

Virginia

Yeah, yeah. And it’s something we talked about where instead of putting on your to do list, “I need to get a safety deposit box,” you would just go open the Prime app, get the safety deposit box. And it feels more efficient.

And it’s true, it’s going to take you at least another month to get the safety deposit box. I just know how I would be with that kind of chore.

Corinne

I was looking up where could I buy one locally? It’s like Walmart or Harbor Freight. Those are both also really problematic companies. But I was like, okay, here I go, I’m going to put on my shoes. I’m gonna go to Harbor Freight. And then I was like, no. I don’t want to do that. I’m not going to do that. I don’t need this right now.

Virginia

I’m not going to take an hour out of my day and solve this.

Corinne

It’s actually just not urgent. And same with the sewing gage hemming thing. I wanted to hem something. But I was like, “I don’t need to do this today. I’ll just do it the next time I go to Joann’s.”

Virginia

In some ways that’s relaxing to me. We were giving a lot of false urgency to things that weren’t crises. And solving things with shopping that didn’t need to be solved. So stepping back from that a little bit feels very clarifying.

I’m just like, okay, do I keep stepping back?

My goal for the next month should be solve the protein powder thing. Try to tie off these loose ends around my Amazon mess.

Corinne

Actually, one thing I saw I think on TikTok during this month was someone was saying, if you don’t have Prime, but you want to order from Amazon, the free shipping threshold is like, $35.

Virginia

Somebody said that in chat!

Corinne

You can just not have Prime and still get the free shipping. So it’s another thing where it’s like, if you just have enough patience…

Virginia

Wait until you’ve accumulated a list. And that’s probably a better use of Amazon.

Corinne

Three protein powders are probably $35.

Virginia

Oh, yeah, for sure. That would do it. That’s a great point.

Corinne

But is that better? I don’t know.

Virginia

It’s still shopping from Amazon,

Corinne

But at least you’re not giving them $120 a year just for the privilege to shop.

Virginia

That is fucked up. When we say it like that, that is some garbage.

Corinne

So I think I’m definitely at least going to cancel Prime. I will probably still shop at Whole Foods, and I may still shop at Amazon from time to time. But I’m going to try to at least get rid of Prime.

Virginia

Not have it be the default, knee jerk reaction. I think this is a big shift for both of us, and it feels like a great starting point. And maybe I work on Target next. But maybe I give myself some time before I feel like I have to keep adding on here.

As a suburban mom, my joke is that I’m always shopping at Target. Like, I’m never not placing a Target order? At least it feels that way.

Corinne

But it’s actually just kind of hard to find stuff on the Target app sometimes.

Virginia

Yeah, it’s not great, and that’s good. Adding that friction is good. I think for me, the waste point with Target is the fast fashion. It is one of the few places to get decent, affordably priced plus size clothing. But then you often end up doing the buying multiples of the thing, or buying the thing that doesn’t really hold up very long. It’s just very easy to waste money there on clothes.

Then if I go in person, the cute home stuff always gets me. I have less of a hard time with that on the app, because I can just not look at the Hearth and Home things.

Well, I’m proud of us. I think we did great. I think we did a super job with this challenge, and I hope other folks who are trying it, I want to hear how it went for them!

If people have other strategies they figured out, if anyone knows where I can get Marmite and protein powder, please drop that in the comments.

Virginia

Because it is fucking freezing in New York—it was zero degrees at the bus stop this morning—I am wearing all of my clothes all of the time, and my feet are not leaving my shearling, big buckle, Birkenstock clogs. They are my house shoes. I can make it out to the driveway, and that’s about it shoes. I get about two or three winters out of a pair. I wish they last a little longer. The shearling really mats down after a while and that they’re not as comfy, but I have a new pair this year, and, man, they’re saving me on these very cold days.

Corinne

That sounds so nice. Do you get the same size in the shearling ones? Or you have to size up?

Virginia

I do get the same size. Although you have to be prepared that when the shearling is it peak fluffiness, you’ll be like, “They’re too small.” And then it mats down a little bit, and it’s totally fine. You could go up a size, but they don’t do half sizes, and I don’t know that I’d want to go up a whole size. I would say, just tough out two weeks of them feeling a little snug.

Corinne

My Butter is a movie I saw, actually a couple months ago, but the movie is called Anora. Did you see it?

Virginia

No, I never see movies. That’s cute you thought I would have. I’ll Google it, though.

Corinne

Okay, it came out in 2024, and it’s about a sex worker who meets a young Russian guy who’s the son of a Russian oligarch, and it just kind of turns into this caper story, and it’s really funny. And it’s one of those movies where you laugh a lot, you also might cry, but I just left it feeling like, oh, I love humanity in all its flaws.

Virginia

Oh, I love a movie like that.

Corinne

Yeah. I would definitely recommend Anora if you haven’t seen it.

Virginia

The lead is someone who’s so familiar to me, I’m trying to figure out—

Corinne

She was in that show with Pamela Adlon.

Virginia

Oh, yes! She’s the daughter from Better Things.

Oh, I really want to see this now. Is it streaming somewhere other than Amazon Prime?

Corinne

I actually don’t even know if it’s streaming yet, because I saw it in the theaters, but I’m sure if it’s not yet, it will be soon.

Virginia

Okay, I’m really excited to see that when it eventually comes to my television, I will watch it, but not on Prime Video! At least, I hope not.

Well, this was great. Thank you for doing this challenge with me. I’m very proud of us for making it through and excited to hear what other folks think.

Corinne

Yeah, me, too.

The Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith (follow me on Instagram) and Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus, and Big Undies—subscribe for 20% off!

The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe.

Our theme music is by Farideh.

Tommy Harron is our audio engineer.

Thanks for listening and for supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism!

Today Virginia is chatting with Frankie De La Cretaz.  

Frankie is an award-winning journalist whose work sits at the intersection of sports, gender and culture. They are the co-author of Hail Mary, the rise and fall of the National Women’s Football League, and their writing has been featured in The New York Times, Sports Illustrated, The Atlantic and more.

Frankie also writes Out of Your League, a newsletter about queer sports and pop culture, which I consider a must-subscribe. If you have been remotely following the issues of trans women in sports, you likely already know how well Frankie calls out that bias and discrimination. As Frankie points out, the way bodies are policed and controlled in the sports world is really just a microcosm of how the bodies of queer, trans, and otherwise marginalized folks are being policed and controlled throughout our culture right now.

So even if you think you don’t care about sports, I promise you’ll care about this conversation.

If you find today’s episode valuable, please consider supporting our work with a paid subscription!

Guest interviews are always free on Burnt Toast, but paid subscriptions enable us to pay guests for their time, labor and expertise. (This is extremely rare in the world of podcasting, but key to centering marginalized voices!)

To tell us YOUR thoughts, and to get all of the links and resources mentioned in this episode, as well as a complete transcript, visit our show page.

If you want more conversations like this one, please rate and review us in your podcast player! And become a paid Burnt Toast subscriber — subscriptions are just $7 per month! —to get all of Virginia's reporting and bonus subscriber-only episodes. 

And don’t forget to check out our Burnt Toast Podcast Bonus Content! 

Disclaimer: You’re listening to this episode because you value my input as a journalist who reports on these issues and therefore has a lot of informed opinions. Neither my guest today nor I are healthcare providers, and this conversation is not meant to substitute for medical or therapeutic advice.

FAT TALK is out in paperback! Order your signed copy from Virginia's favorite independent bookstore, Split Rock Books (they ship anywhere in the US!). Or order it from your independent bookstore, or from Barnes & Noble, Amazon, Target, or Kobo or anywhere else you like to buy books. You can also order the audio book from Libro.fm or Audible.

CREDITS

The Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith and Corinne Fay. Follow Virginia on Instagram, Follow Corinne  @SellTradePlus, an Instagram account where you can buy and sell plus size clothing and subscribe to Big Undies.

Our theme music is by Farideh.Tommy Harron is our audio engineer.Thanks for listening and for supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism. 

Thank you for subscribing. Leave a comment or share this episode.

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Frankie

My name is Frankie de la Cretaz. I am an independent journalist, and my work mostly sits at the intersection of sports, gender, and culture.

Virginia

Even if you identify as a deeply un-athletic and not-sports-fluent person, such as myself, Frankie’s work will make you understand sports in a whole new way—and how much it intersects with politics, culture, everything else that’s going on.

So everyone needs to subscribe to

Out of Your League

.

Frankie

I appreciate that. I actually consider myself someone who writes about sports for people who don’t think they care about sports, so I’m glad that’s coming across.

Virginia

We’re going to talk about something that you’ve been writing about for a long time, which is the potential of sports to be fat positive, and the many barriers in place there. But before we go there: I want to acknowledge we are having this conversation a day after the inauguration. It’s going to drop about a week out from the inauguration. It’s a rough time in America right now.

And one of Trump’s first presidential actions was to publish an executive order that I have had to read three or four times because it is so jarring to see such anti-trans, misogynist language on the White House website.

So Frankie, how are you? Where are we? How are you doing?

Frankie

I mean, as a trans person, generally, this sucks. But as a journalist who has been documenting the rise of transphobia and anti-trans rhetoric in this country, I’m not surprised. We have been saying for a while that the goal of anti-trans sport legislation is actually this, what we’re seeing—which is to legislate trans people out of existence.

This was the ultimate goal of the rightwing anti-trans groups that pushed all of this legislation that now exists in over half of the states Because sports was the place where they could make trans people, and trans women in particular, seem threatening. They could couch it in language around fairness, and advantage, and the real marginalization that cis women, and women in general, have faced over time. So sports became the acceptable place for prejudice and discrimination to happen. But the thing is, once you make trans people or any group of people a threat in one arena, it becomes much easier to make them a threat in other arenas.

So a lot of these bills attempted to redefine biological sex. A lot of states that passed these anti-trans sports bills went on to pass more extreme anti-trans legislation against healthcare and education and things like that. So I think there’s this very direct link from the attack on trans people in sports to what we’re seeing now.

The other thing I will mention is the reason that so many people were nervous about the bill that the House just passed—which is banning trans women and girls from girls’ school sports—is that bill also has language that defines gender as binary, as one or the other. And we could see the potential for that language to be broadened to all areas of life. And that is what we’re seeing.

Virginia

That’s what this executive order clearly intends to do. It’s really chilling.

And as a cis woman, it makes my skin crawl the way the language is framed as if it is protecting fragile women and girls. As if a president who is a sexual predator and an anti-choice administration has our best interests at heart.

Frankie

Yes, and I think that’s what makes me as angry as it does, how they have leveraged real marginalization, real harm, real oppression, that women have faced in our society. Instead of pointing the finger at the patriarchy and agents of the patriarchy—often that is cis men—they point the finger at trans women and girls. Even though trans women and girls are actually the most vulnerable and the most likely to be victims of violence. This prevents actual progress for women as a whole, because it pits these two marginalized groups against each other.

This has been a really effective strategy of the anti-trans movement. Instead of allowing cis women to see their own protection and freedom as tied up with trans women, and seeing cis women and trans women as part of the same fight, they have pitted them against each other, and it has endangered both groups even more.

Virginia

It’s dangerous, and it’s just frankly insulting. It’s just like, Trump?? Really?? This known rapist is a heroic protector of women?? I can’t. It’s wild.

But obviously, we know there are plenty of women who voted for him. So we have a lot of work to do. But I appreciate you giving us that larger context and helping people understand why it is so important to talk about trans rights in sports, and how that that is the stepping stone that leads to where we are now.

Frankie

I’ve called it “gateway legislation.” I know that’s making light of something that’s quite serious, but really, the sports legislation has served as that. Because it’s “just sports,” a lot of people didn’t pay attention until it was much too late.

Virginia

Well, not to pivot from one depressing topic to another depressing topic—

Frankie

Welcome to my beat, Virginia.

Virginia

This is where we are! But a story you’ve been following that I really want to talk to you about is the rise of weight loss drug advertising during sports events, specifically during WNBA and women’s college basketball. What is going on here?

Frankie

Great question. Just this past weekend I was watching the new women’s basketball league, Unrivaled, which is so exciting. Until I got an ad for Hers injectable weight loss medication right in the middle. And I was like, Oh, we are continuing the trend, I see.

I think there are a few reasons that this happens. I think there’s an assumption that people who watch sports, and particularly women who watch sports, are going to be more health conscious than the average person. And, as you know very well, in our culture, we associate health with thinness.

For a long time, coverage of women’s sports was folded into fitness coverage, like Health, Women’s Health, and Fitness—those kinds of magazines. And when we talk about fitness culture, we also are talking about these elements of diet culture and beauty culture that come with it.

On top of that, we have this massive boom in women’s sports in terms of funding and sponsorships. Audiences are growing massively. Seemingly every month they’re telling us that there’s hundreds of thousands more people watching women’s sports than there were even like last month. So brands love this, right? They’re desperate to cash in on this audience. So it’s Hers, which is specifically marketed for women, that has this very feminine advertising. Ro is another one that markets explicitly for women.

So there’s this insidious thing happening where in women’s sports, we have this narrative of women’s empowerment and “by women for women,” and the way we talk about them. And then you’ve got this women’s medication that continues on this theme. I think all of that is coming together to really make women’s sporting events an appealing place for these drugs to market themselves.

Virginia

It does really make a sick kind of sense when you lay it out like that. I spent the first decade or so of my career in women’s magazines and writing for places like Self and Fitness, and we regularly featured women athletes, but asked them about their beauty routine and their diet, you know? It was very much like, let’s take this athlete and let’s make sure we talk about her the same way we talk about an actress or a pop star. We want to know her beauty work. We want to know her diet secret. We want to know how she looks so great. So it completely makes sense to take that same framing which was always really patronizing towards these world class athletes, not at all on par with the kinds of questions male athletes get asked, and then assume that the audience is like, “Well, I want to look like her. I need the weight loss drug as well.”

Frankie

The other piece that’s quite paternalistic is the “see her, be her” theme. This is where we position these pro women athletes as role models for the next generation and as inspiration for little girls. And research has shown that girls ages 12 to 18, are the fastest growing market and viewership for women’s sports.

So when you add in the fact that they’re being exposed to these ads, that’s cause for concern, right? Because this is the age group where they’re going to be the most vulnerable to eating disorders. Use of weight loss medications among this age group is also skyrocketing right now. Sometimes that’s for the medical conditions that these medications are designed to treat. But often it’s just because teenage girls who are fat are dealing with so much bullying because of the culture that we live in. So they’re being prescribed these drugs for weight loss. They are the fastest growing age group for these drugs. So these ads feel incredibly insidious. They’re preying on our pre-existing culturally ingrained body anxiety. They’re doing so during these sporting events where we assume that the athletes on the field or the court are able to do what they do— this is implied— because they are in “peak shape.” They are not fat, right? So it’s all just, really icky.

Virginia

Like, really deeply icky.

Frankie

I always want to be really clear that the ads that we’re talking about here, they’re not talking about diabetes as the presenting condition. They’re not talking about some other co-morbid or coexisting condition. They’re talking about being fat as the presenting condition. They’re talking about weight loss as the thing they are selling. So this is the difference between marketing for an actual medical condition that these drugs might treat and marketing by fear-mongering about body size.

Virginia

Yes, super important. I appreciate you teasing that out.

It feels like we need to talk about Ilona Maher a little bit in all of this, because she is a peak example of this, of the role model athlete who is inspiring girls. And, you know, I have felt complicated about her. She’s delightful. She has been really outspoken about celebrating that she’s in a bigger body. She is by no means fat. But she’s tall and muscular, and not, kind of, normative, I guess? By some measures?

And she did that reel that went viral over the summer, challenging body mass index. So I think a lot of folks spent last summer thinking she represents this major positive sea change for how we think about women’s bodies in sports. But as you and I have discussed on the sidelines, we don’t quite see it this way.

Frankie

There’s a world in which she could be representing a sea change, but that’s not the world we live in. I feel kind of bad that Ilona Maher gets caught up in this discussion, because I think it’s emblematic of what happens when we talk about individual people rather than systemic issues. She is being used as an example, perhaps unfairly, right? But I think it’s important because she’s straight and she’s white and she’s cis and her body is acceptable, because of what it can do in a sporting context. I think we’ll probably talk a little bit more about this idea as we keep talking about fatphobia in sports. But her body is acceptable because it otherwise conforms to a lot of traditional ideas of femininity. She wears lipstick, and she was on Dancing with the Stars. She’s joked that she wants to be the next Bachelorette, which is really playing up that straightness.

Ben Watts/Sports Illustrated source here.

Virginia

The hair. She’s got very Pretty Girl Hair, for sure.

Frankie

And that’s fantastic. Ilona Maher is an example of someone who can be both athletic and feminine. But what about athletes who aren’t feminine? Where do they fit in here? We don’t celebrate them in the same way.

But also: What choice does Ilona Maher really have here? During the Olympics, she was the subject of speculation over her gender because of her presumed “masculine” qualities. We’re in a time of trans investigations in sports, where we are questioning the gender of women athletes who don’t fit into certain ideas of femininity. So what option does she really have, aside from leaning into that femininity? Especially if she wants to continue to get sponsorships and recognition. So she’s kind of been backed into an impossible corner here. And at the same time, she’s upholding a lot of these really oppressive ideas of femininity. But, through no fault of her own, either. And again, that’s where I think we really run into trouble, is upholding one particular person as emblematic of a systemic change, or a systemic issue, because it’s impossible.

Virginia

It’s impossible. She kind of can’t get it right.

Frankie

So this is less about actually Ilona Maher and more about the way that culturally, we have responded to her. She’s not the first, or only, woman athlete to put out social media content that challenges beauty norms or body norms. So why is the athlete that we’ve chosen to rally behind the one who is white and straight and cis and all of these more normative factors? There’s a reason that she is the chosen one.

Virginia

Just to go back to the weight loss commercials piece of it for a second, I realized we didn’t talk about them in the context of men’s sports. Are we not seeing the same trend there in terms of this advertising to male audiences?

Frankie

Not as far as I can tell.

I think what’s important to note here is most of the time, it’s not the leagues who are accepting these commercials. This is different than a team sponsorship. Eli Lilly, who makes a couple of these drugs, is a patch sponsor for the Indiana Fever. The Minnesota Lynx have a local partnership with this weight loss program that their coach is an ambassador for. Those are intentional choices. But when we’re talking specifically about these commercials airing during games, they’re purchased through buying ad inventory. I have checked with the league, and the companies, and this is how they are purchased.

So the league doesn’t actually really have the power here to decide whether to accept these ads. The brands choose what events they want to market to based on the demographics of the audiences for those events. This is probably why we’re not seeing that—even though women do watch men’s sports almost equally. Especially the NFL. Over 50 percent of the NFL fans are women. But people are prejudiced and don’t realize that, so we’re not seeing quite that same shift.

But there’s something else happening that I think makes women’s sports particularly appealing to advertisers. These leagues present themselves as progressive and committed to gender equality and empowerment and brands actually find that really appealing. They will choose to align with these brands because it can make them look like they’re more committed to these things, too.

Not only that, but when women athletes are abrand ambassadors, there’s so much more engagement from consumers. I found this number that I thought was wild, and I wanted to share it because I think this is really important. I think it highlights how dangerous it is that these ads are being able to run during these events: 44 percent of WNBA fans have visited a brand’s website after seeing WNBA sponsorships during a game.

Virginia

Oh my God.

Frankie

And 28 percent have bought from a sponsoring brand.

Virginia

That’s wild. Especially when you consider that you’re watching a show with your eyeballs, and seeing the ad on your TV, and then you have to get out your phone and go to the website. That’s multiple steps people are taking to engage like that.

Frankie

I’ve also seen something like the three athletes who are most likely to convert consumers are all Black women: Simone Biles, Serena Williams, and Angel Reese.

Virginia

Interesting.

Frankie

People trust women athletes because of that role model thing. They trust that they wouldn’t align with a brand who didn’t speak to their values in some way. So they’re more likely to buy things when a woman or a women’s sports league told them that it was okay.

Virginia

I’m holding my head in my hands because it’s so much darker even than I realized.

So okay, we turn these women athletes into our role models. They have to lead the children into the future. And then the weight loss companies are, like, “Perfect! We too would like to be aligned with your progressive values.”

Frankie

Yes, it’s incredible. They’re like, “We hired this new female commissioner. Oh no, we have allegations of workplace harassment that won’t stop.” Women’s leagues! Feminism!

Virginia

Oh, my God. It’s so dark. It’s so dark. So that explains why we’re not seeing the same type of advertising at the NFL games. Not that they wouldn’t, because obviously, they’ll follow the women wherever they find them.

Frankie

They will. And I guess there’s something interesting, too, now that I’ve brought up the NFL, and I think this is related to to things that we’re going to continue to talk about. But you’re much more likely to see fat football players than you are fat basketball players. Like, body diversity exists in basketball, but it’s usually in terms of height, right? You have the players that play in the center, who are 6’ 8” and 6’ 9” and the guards shooting from the perimeter are 5’ 8”. Like, you see that kind of body diversity a lot more. But in a game like football, there’s a lot more body diversity in size, in terms of weight. They don’t talk about football players’ bodies as being lithe. So that may also impact where pharmaceutical companies want to advertise weight loss drugs.

Virginia

Yeah, so let’s go there a little bit, because I would love to have you talk more about how anti-fatness shows up in sports coverage and discourse, even in these sports where we do see larger bodies centered, like football, like rugby. But there’s still a larger anti-fat narrative coming in.

Frankie

Totally, right? Because, we just, as a culture, have ideas about who sports are for: Thin people. Which kinds of bodies can be good at sports: Thin bodies. We continue to exclude fat people from narratives about sports, despite the fact that fat people are participating, have participated, and are often excelling at all levels of sport.

So these cultural ideas discourage people who are not thin from getting involved in sports at all. But they are also part of how and why eating disorders are so prevalent among athletes. Even in terms of media coverage and how there’s this anti-fat bias woven into it.

I think we can go back to the Ilona Maher discussion, right? Because I mentioned her sponsorships. So there’s a lot of things that prevent athletes from getting sponsorships. And in women’s sports, athletes who are more masculine presenting are less likely to get these monies and brand sponsorships.

But even if you look at men’s sports, we see disparities. Take football. How often do you see a lineman being the face of a team or the face on the Gatorade bottle? That spotlight ges to the quarterback or the running back or the wide receiver. Their contracts with the NFL are also worth more than lineman contracts. And linemen are more likely to play a much shorter time, and to deal with head injuries later in life. So they actually might need the money more.

And that running back doesn’t score without the lineman blocking and creating the hole for him to run through. The quarterback doesn’t have time to complete the pass if the linemen don’t do their job. So they’re this really huge part of the success of the players who do get the spotlight, but they don’t get the same kind of attention. And that, to me, is anti-fat bias in action. We don’t think of those men as athletes or as the people we want to represent as the pinnacle of athleticism because of what their bodies look like.

Virginia

And you will see their weight casually referenced all the time. The fact that they are so big gets invoked in almost a tokenistic way.

Frankie

Yes, I think about this all the time. I don’t know if people remember this baseball player, his name is Prince Fielder—who is so hot, by the way! I always had a huge crush on him.

Virginia

Googling now.

Frankie

Google his photos from the ESPN Body Issue.

Because he is a bigger guy who did these photos for the ESPN Body Issue, and the way they were talked about was kind of fascinating. Because the thing that ESPN Body Issue has always done really well—and something I’ve always appreciated about it—is it has done a really good job of representing the diversity of athlete bodies. And Prince Fielder is a baseball player who is much bigger than most of the people that we associate with being baseball players—unless they’re catchers, right?

But it was almost like he was a curiosity. People were making fun of the fact that he was featured in this issue. Because men who are fat can be the butt of jokes. So a lot of times, male athletes who are bigger have nicknames about how fat they are, and it’s supposed to be an endearment or a positive thing, but we don’t see that happen with women athletes in the same way. This is the way that anti-fatness shows up for men.

Virginia

I have a childhood memory of my dad talking about a football player that everyone called “The Fridge” and I can’t remember what team he was on. But he had that name because he was as big as a fridge. That was the joke. And when you just think about that afterwards, it’s like, wow, that’s that’s not a nice name.

Frankie

Or they’re compared to their smaller teammates. Like, “Can you believe these people are on the same team?” There’s also that inspiration porn thing, which happens in disability coverage too. “Look, even a fat person can be good at this thing!” Rather than just getting treated and respected as the athletes that they are. These are ways that we talk about athletes who are in bodies that aren’t thin, or are maybe outliers in terms of [the body norms of] their sport. They’re seen as exceptions, and they don’t get the same level of respect and attention.

Virginia

The Fridge’s real name is William Perry. I had to google it, just so we don’t only refer to him by a harmful nickname. And he was a defensive lineman for the Chicago Bears back in the 80s, and later played for the Philadelphia Eagles.

[Post-recording note: William Perry did enjoy quite a bit of celebrity, and sponsorship deals, during his football career, though the media relentlessly reported on his weight and made fat jokes about him. But to Frankie’s point about size-related discrepancies in football contracts and other earning potential, Sports Illustrated reported in 2000 that Perry was working as a brick layer, and in 2016, reported on Perry’s financial debts, substance abuse struggles, and other health problems; at the time he was held in a Britney Spears-style conservatorship by his brother. CW on both links for significant fatphobia.]

Frankie

So I mentioned my book, right? For people that aren’t familiar with it, the National Women’s Football League existed in the 1970s and 1980s. The coverage, though, really could have been written today. It was often really shocking to me how little has changed. But one of the things they would do because, again, we’re talking about a sport like football, where there is a wide variety in the size of the bodies that are going to be on the field. And one of the teams had this woman, her name was Bobbie Grant. Her nickname was SuperSugar, and she was in a band. She was a frontperson, that was her stage name.

Virginia

That’s amazing.

Frankie

And she weighed over 300 pounds, and was a lineman. And I know how much she weighed because the newspapers wanted to tell us all the time. And then they would put the weight of the smaller women next to her. You and your listeners are probably familiar with the trope of the headless fattie, right? Those dehumanizing photographs where the media just photographs their body. So Bobbie Grant would often be photographed from behind, sitting on the bench, so you actually couldn’t see her face. Or she’d be in a side by side with the beautiful, thin quarterback. And Bobbie was a Black woman, too. So a lot of these things came into play, right?

But this is how the media was talking about her. Instead of being like, “This woman is an incredible lineman and is giving her team an advantage because they have Bobbie Grant and no one else does.” And so we can see that narrative, too.

Virginia

It’s fascinating, and it’s really, I think, deflating. I think about this from the perspective of parents putting kids in sports. And I think often, if you have a kid in a bigger body, you’re hoping they’re going to find a safe place in one of these sports where a larger body is an asset. So to understand that actually, they’re still going to encounter this, and it’s going to play out slightly differently than if your kid in a bigger body was trying to be a ballerina, but it’s still going to come up—that’s really frustrating.

Frankie

Yeah, and even sports that have weight classes, that have heavyweight classes, whether it’s wrestling or boxing, they still have weight limits that they often have to adhere to. And so still, there’s a lot of that really harmful dieting or the equivalent of exercise bulimia type behavior that happens around those sports even though there are weight classes.

Virginia

I’ll link back to an episode we did last year, which was an excerpt from Fat Talk, my chapter on sports, where we get into a lot of how the weight classes and the pressure to have the quote right body for the sport impacts kids. And it includes some strategies for how to talk to your kids about this. For anyone listening to this and feeling sort of panicked, but it is. It’s a really, really difficult thing to navigate.

Is there anything else you want to add, about how this anti-fatness intersects with the anti-trans stuff, around how we police athletes, bodies, and especially in women’s sports?

Frankie

You and your listeners know that fatphobia in sports is coming from the fact that we live in a fatphobic society. But that fatphobia often intersects with, and is rooted in, transphobia and anti-Blackness, right? The beauty standards that idealize thinness are based on white supremacy. And those same beauty standards are going to negatively impact trans athletes, Black athletes, and other marginalized athletes.

And we’ve talked about Ilona Maher and the way she is feminine, a particular way that doesn’t fully protect her from some of these questions, but insulates her a little bit.

For athletes who are both fat and trans, they’re going to have these intersecting challenges, right? If they’re good at their sport, suddenly it’s because they have an unfair advantage because they’re trans, right? I interviewed a transfeminine power lifter. Her name is Jaycee Cooper. She’s actually suing the state of Minnesota currently because she was banned from women’s powerlifting. But she talked about how, when she has a good competition, or does well, it’s not because she’s a good power lifter, it’s because she has an unfair advantage, because she’s trans. And if she has a doesn’t do well, and her transness isn’t a factor, she is often subjected to comments that might be rooted in weight stigma.

Virginia

So it’s coming from both directions. Well, it’s really from the same direction. But they’re going to hit both boxes if they can.

Is there giving you hope right now, any any slivers of progress that you’re seeing? Because as you’ve said, there is so much potential for sports to be truly inclusive. But how do we get there, Frankie?

Frankie

There is so much potential, right? Like we’ve named so many different ways a larger body can be an asset in certain sports. And this can allow people and women in particular, whose bodies are hyper-visible and hyper-policed in other aspects of their lives, to find pride in what their body can do, to find belonging and contribute to a team.

When I was reporting my book, I saw this happen over and over again. Women who played football thought about their bodies differently after being on the football field. They took that into other areas of their life. They could walk with their chin held high because they knew that whatever society thought about their body, they knew differently. They felt good about themselves. So I think that there’s so much potential there.

I think a lot about the conversations happening in sports like gymnastics, post the Karolyis (longtime coaches of the U.S. national team, known for their abusive practices). There are still these very specific body standards, but they are shifting. You’re having people say things like, “It turns out having muscle and eating food for energy actually makes you a better athlete.”

Virginia

Who would have thought.

Frankie

I hate that that is progress, but it is.

Virginia

That’s where we are. That is progress.

Frankie

So I hope this continues. I think on a purely recreational level, there are clubs and things that exist, whether it’s just spaces that are going to be inclusive or that are designed specifically for people in fat bodies to participate in a sport or an athletic endeavor without being stigmatized or feeling nervous about having to do that. Those are things that exist.

I think, as we navigate this progress and figure out how we can not just be inclusive, but actively fat positive, I think we really need to be aware of not falling into Good Fatty tropes. Like, you might be fat, but it’s okay because you’re good at sport. We’re assigning this moralism to that. So I think that’s the line that we have to walk when we have these conversations, too.

Virginia

No one has a moral obligation to perform athleticism just because they’re in a bigger body. It’s more about getting doors open so people who have wanted to do that, who haven’t been able to, are in the room now.

Frankie

Right, and the idea that your size doesn’t preclude you from being athletic, but also it’s okay if you’re not athletic, you can do a sport and be terrible at it and find joy in it and that’s pretty, pretty great.

Virginia

That’s so important.

Frankie

So I have been watching season 3 of The Traitors, which just started. Are you familiar with The Traitors?

Virginia

I know nothing.

Frankie

So it’s a competition reality show where a bunch of reality stars from other networks live in a castle and it’s hosted by Alan Cumming, in high camp, and very Scottish. There are always a lot of queer people, which I really, really love. And I’m a huge nerd about MTV’s The Challenge for anyone that remembers The Real World and Road Rules. The Challenge, I’m going to credit with inventing competition reality television. But it also has like what you see in Housewives franchises, where there are storylines from season to season, because the same people keep coming back.

Virginia

That’s satisfying.

Frankie

So it’s a combination of the two main kinds of reality shows, but it pre-existed all of them. And there have been OG Challenge cast members. They’ve done like 20 seasons of the show. But I consider the people who do The Challenge regularly to be pro athletes in a way, because it’s a physical competition show. But they’re getting older, and their bodies can’t do that anymore, and some of them are transitioning to these other shows.

So I watched Season Two, because my favorite Challenge crush, CT, who they called Castle Daddy, was on it. And no one had heard of The Challenge. Nobody knew who The Challenge players were. And they won that show. They won that season. And they gave interviews afterwards like, “We invented the genre, and we were going to show people that we invented the genre.”

So there’s a Challenger again in the cast this season. And then there are always a ton of queer people. And I just love queer people being campy and kind of making a mess. So that is what I am enjoying and thinking way, way too much about, like, narrative and dynamics on reality TV.

Virginia

I mean, that sounds like the perfect place for your brain to be, especially this week. That’s deeply comforting and absorbing in exactly the right way.

Frankie

I can make anything sports, apparently. Reality TV is sports.

Virginia

It’s very impressive. I’ll do a TV Butter as well, which is my 11-year-old and I are watching Schitt’s Creek right now. It’s her first time watching it. I’m re-watching it, I mean, it’s not news to say that’s an amazing show, but it’s such an amazing show, and it’s really fun to watch with a middle schooler.

She’s really perfecting her sarcasm, trying to banter back like David and Alexis. So it’s very good for honing those skills, which I think is important in sixth grade. And, you know, it’s obviously amazing queer rep. David and Patrick are our love story for the ages.

Frankie

It is a great show. And every time I watch it, there are so many jokes layered in it. Like, it gets better.

Virginia

It gets better.

Frankie

I also just very much feel like David is… My gender is very David Rose-coded.

Virginia

I see that. I fully support that. I mean, he’s amazing. My other rec about it is if you are parenting a sometimes angsty tween, quoting Moira Rose at her is a great way to cut through some of the nonsense.. And then we both laugh and we move on. It’s good stuff.

Well, Frankie, thank you. This was such a delight. I appreciate everything you’re doing. Tell folks where we can find you and how we can support you.

Frankie

The easiest way to find me is my newsletter

Out of Your League

. And then I am TheFrankieDLC on Instagram and Blue Sky. I am, like many of us, slowly deleting many social media accounts. So I would definitely say the newsletter is the best place, because I also share the things I publish elsewhere there as well.

Virginia

Fantastic. Thank you for being here!

You’re listening to Burnt Toast!

We are Virginia Sole-Smith and Corinne Fay, and it’s time for your January Indulgence Gospel.

It’s time for another mailbag episode, so we’ll be answering questions like:

⭐️ Is it anti-fatness to care that your partner eats faster than you?

⭐️ What ultra processed foods can we not live without?

⭐️ What should you do when your friend starts weight loss drugs for “wardrobe” reasons?

⭐️ Did Virginia buy the air fryer and if so, what is she air frying?

To hear our answers, you’ll need to be a paid Burnt Toast subscriber. Subscriptions are $7 per month or $70 for the year.If you’re already a paid subscriber, you can add on a subscription to Big Undies, Corinne’s newsletter about clothes, for 20% off.

To get all of the links and resources mentioned in this episode, as well as a complete transcript, visit our show page.

Also, don't forget to order Fat Talk: Parenting In the Age of Diet Culture! Get your signed copy now from Split Rock Books (they ship anywhere in the USA). You can also order it from your independent bookstore, or from Barnes & Noble, Amazon, Target, Kobo or anywhere you like to buy books. (Or get the UK edition or the audiobook!) 

Disclaimer: Virginia and Corinne are humans with a lot of informed opinions. They are not nutritionists, therapists, doctors, or any kind of healthcare providers. The conversation you're about to hear and all of the advice and opinions they give are just for entertainment, information, and education purposes only. None of this is a substitute for individual medical or mental health advice.

PS. You can always listen to our episodes right here in your email, where you’ll also receive full transcripts (edited and condensed for clarity). But please also follow us in Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, and/or Pocket Casts!

This episode contains affiliate links. Shopping our links is a great way to support Burnt Toast! You’ll find all of the links aggregated here.

The Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith (follow me on Instagram) and Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus, and Big Undies—subscribe for 20% off!

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Virginia

Do we have any pressing Burnt Toast business to discuss before we get into our questions? Anything new?

Corinne

Nothing feels new.

Virginia

We’re all just hanging in there. My house has the flu still, but hopefully by the time this episode comes out, that will not be true.

[Post-recording note: It is still true!]

Corinne

Shall I read the first question?

Virginia

Go for it.

Corinne

Okay, it’s a long one! Buckle in.

I am grateful for the labor of your book; it was meaningful to me and sparked important conversations with my loved ones. The book answered many questions and has helped me develop my thinking. Yet one issue persists, and I hope you can help me explore it.

What do I do when my partner eats much faster than me, takes up the space and amount of food he needs, but doesn’t leave enough for me? I feel petty asking this question, but it holds deep meaning for me.

My partner was fat for much of his life and has had a complex relationship with his body and food. I don’t want to shame him, as he was shamed often in his youth. Still, I find myself resenting him deeply when he eats so fast that not enough is left for me. On the other hand, I’ve always been nervous about there being enough food. I tend to eat slowly, leaving some behind to ensure there’s enough for both of us—even though, deep down, I’d love to devour the food just as he does.

On a deeper level, this feels tied to the concept of taking up space, a transformative idea for me. The notion that I don’t need to make myself small has been a crucial area of growth. But when someone else, like my partner, takes up space and eats all he needs, I sometimes feel he is inconsiderate, taking my space, and taking advantage of me. This triggers a rigid response in me—I want to strictly divide our food, even though our needs may differ at any given moment. Then, I feel compelled to eat only what I’ve “claimed,” sacrificing flexibility and connection in favor of fairness. The meal becomes about rules instead of enjoyment.

This leaves me wondering: Do I harbor hidden anti-fat bias? How can I learn to take up space myself and encourage my loved ones to do the same, without becoming rigid, entitled, or instilling these same tendencies in my partner?

Virginia

There’s so much to this question.

I have to say, when we first read it, when it came in, I had a little bit of a knee jerk “yes, this is your hidden anti-fat bias” response.

But as you’re reading it this time, I’m thinking more about the gender dynamics at play here. There’s a lot to say about how men and women are socialized differently around food and sharing food and meal etiquette. So this question rests at a weird intersection of these two issues.

Corinne

Yeah, it’s so complicated. When I read it, I think about food scarcity, and how experiencing that in your younger years can really impact you for the rest of your life.

Virginia

And it sounds like there’s a background of that here, for both of them, right? If her partner was a fat kid, he might have been told to eat less. So he develops a scarcity mindset and copes with by eating as fast as he can before someone takes the food away, which is heartbreaking, but definitely happens.

Then, on the other hand, she is always nervous about there being enough food, maybe because there wasn’t enough food at some point in her life. So she eats less.

It sounds like she is starting from a place of, “it’s my job to make sure everyone has enough to eat,” but then quickly getting to the point of, “but now somehow my needs get sacrificed to that.”

Corinne

I also appreciate the level of self-reflection in this letter. Because when I was reading it the first time, I was like, well, just divide the food equally! But she’s like, “I’ve done that. I have a rigid response to it.” And then I’m sacrificing connection in favor of fairness, which does feel legit.

Virginia

I almost feel like we have to take this apart and deal with this in parts.

So just to think more about the gender piece for a second: One thing I see happen so often in heterosexual partnerships, is a man will start eating a meal before a woman has even sat down at the table. This was the reality in my homes growing up. I saw my father and my stepfather eating before my mom or my stepmother even sat down at the table. And I see it often in other relatives and friends now.

In my own house, I frequently die on the mountain of no one eats until the cook sits down. And if someone doesn’t start to eat before I sit down, I notice and thank them and make a big deal about it. Because I want my kids to learn this matters. But it’s so incredibly gendered. Men are used to being served food. That might be flipped if they cooked the meal, but often even if they were involved in the food prep, they then sit down and just start eating and don’t wait. And it makes me incandescent with rage when I see it play out, because it is such an obvious way of saying “This is the power dynamic here. This woman serves me. I get to eat. My needs are being centered.”

So if that’s happening, rather than getting into how fast he eats or how much he eats or any of those things—where you can very quickly be in anti-fat territory—you can say, “As a basic courtesy and sign of respect, can we sit down together and start eating at the same time?” Because it’s so awful to sit down and be like, “They’re already done,” and you haven’t even taken a bite. It is a panicky feeling. So I just want to name that. She doesn’t explicitly say this t is what is happening, but I wonder if that’s at play, and if it is, I want it to stop.

Corinne

Well and similarly, could he just ask if he can have a second serving or something? It does sort of feel like there’s maybe a low level of like inconsideration here.

Virginia

Yes, that has nothing to do with his body size or his relationship with food. That just has to do with him not being a very just considerate meal partner.

Corinne

I feel like if I was having dinner with someone and took a serving and wanted more, I’d be like, “Do you also want more? I just want to make sure there’s enough for both of us.”

So part of me is wondering, have you had this conversation with him or no?

Virginia

I mean, what we teach kids around this to avoid the scarcity mindset, but also make sure there’s enough is: Everyone gets firsts and then if you want seconds, you say, “Does anyone else want some?” And you offer it around as you’re taking your seconds. You can still have some, but you just build in that skill of noticing and checking, does anyone want some?

Corinne

Would you make the kid wait to have seconds until everyone was done with the first round?

Virginia

I mean, I do not. But it’s different with kids. They’re not going to want to eat the thing that I’m going to want more of probably. I’m like, Yes, have more Cheez its. That’s fine.

And it’s easy to do when it’s something like cookies or cupcakes. Or even cake, you can sort of eyeball it, and make sure you’re leaving enough for people to have seconds. I think that’s what it comes down to. Just make sure you’re leaving enough for other people to have some, whether or not they’re done with their portion.

Corinne

Because it sounds like he doesn’t have that sense. So then it’s like, how do you have that conversation? Or do you?

Virginia

Well, I think this is where I kind of need to understand more about the overall gender dynamics. Who is doing the food prep? If he’s not doing the food prep, how appreciative is he of that labor? And if he’s eating before you even sit down, then I would approach it very much like a “let’s discuss gender equity in our marriage or in our relationship” conversation. It’s really not about his relationship with his body.

I would hope you have a comfort level with your partner where you can say that very clearly, “This isn’t about your body size. This isn’t about how much you eat. This is about I do the work to put dinner on the table and it feels disrespectful when we don’t share the meal.”

Corinne

I think you could still tell him how you’re feeling about it. I don’t think you can say, “I think you’re eating too much.” But I think you could say, “Mealtimes feel really stressful for me because I’m worried about not getting enough to eat.”

And the other thing I wonder is: Could you just cook more food?

Virginia

I was going to say that, too. I don’t know if this anxiety about enough food is like, are they on a very tight budget and they’re limiting? But could you make more of the rice or the beans? One of the lower cost ingredients that would help make sure there’s enough for everyone to fill up on?

Corinne

Well, and I feel like that is where then we start to get into some anti-fat bias. Are you worried that if you make more food, he’ll eat more?

Virginia

This is a good question. Maybe it’s not budget. Maybe she is doing some subtle portion control around only making as much as she thinks they should eat.

Corinne

And he’s clearly needing more food. And it seems like she’s needing more food, too.

Virginia

She says she wants to be devouring the food like he does, but she’s not letting herself. So giving yourself that permission, and freedom, to devour the food is another piece to work on. And maybe in order to do that you need to make more food for both of you to whatever extent you can realistically do that, so that you can both have your scarcity mindsets reassured.

Because it really sounds like they both have a scarcity mindset, but it’s manifesting in opposite ways.

Corinne

I do think for me it has been helpful, when I’m feeling this kind of stress about not having enough to eat, to just have way more than I want.

Virginia

Even if that’s like adding bread to the table. It doesn’t mean you’re making three pot roasts necessarily, but more potatoes, more of the things that will fill you up, but won’t break the budget.

This is one I would love an update on, if it is something you guys do manage to talk about, or how it goes. And I’m also curious to hear what listeners think, because I think it’s a common dynamic. I think different appetites in relationships is a common stumbling block to sharing meals together.

Corinne

Yeah, that makes sense.

Virginia

Or different attitudes about appetites, I guess. Because, again, she’s saying she wants to eat more.

Corinne

And the socialization part, like different ideas of what’s polite. Or what’s considerate.

Virginia

When in doubt, be considerate to the person who made the meal. That’s my bottom line.

I’ll read the next one.

How do you handle it when someone you like starts a semaglutide journey for reasons of, quote, wardrobe?

Corinne

Well, it’s hard for me to believe that anyone is starting semaglutides truly only for the reason of wardrobe. I can imagine that that could be part of it, or that could be what they’re telling people, but I feel like it’s probably more complicated than that.

Virginia

What I often hear, is people will say the clothes thing. And they’ll say, “it’s really about the budget,” or like, “I don’t want to buy a whole new wardrobe that doesn’t feel doable or accessible.” But I mean, semaglutide is a pretty expensive drug. So, question mark there. Usually, what they really mean is, “I don’t like how I look in the bigger clothes I have to wear right now.”

So I think reasons of wardrobe are always rooted in “I like how I look thinner and I want to be thinner.” It’s definitely just a code word for saying, I want to be thinner because I think I’m prettier that way, or, you know, more aesthetically pleasing to myself that way.

Corinne

I mean, it’s not great.

Virginia

So, how to handle it? I mean, if this is someone, you have a personal relationship with, boundaries. Wishing them well. But this isn’t a topic you really want to be keeping close tabs on.

Corinne

If it’s someone on social media, unfollow.

Virginia

Yep. This is maybe not someone you need to be following, at least when they’re talking about this topic, which may mean unfollowing, because often when people are in this place, they want to talk about it all the time or it’ll crop up. And you can come back to them.

I mean, the reality about this kind of experiment is we know people lose weight on semaglutide and we know when they stop taking semaglutide, they regain the weight. If someone is really doing it primarily for wardrobe reasons, I don’t know that they’ve committed to staying on for their whole life. And I think a lot of the doctors who buy into the wardrobe kind of reasoning also often mislead patients. I’ve heard a couple instances of this, where they’re telling patients, “Oh yeah, we can get you to this place and then we can titrate you off.” But that’s not what the research is showing to work. There will be regain. So this is another hamster wheel this person has chosen to get on, and you can wish them well, but I think taking some space is probably good.

Corinne

Next question. I like this one.

With all the anti processed food fear mongering, what’s a processed food that makes your life easier and better?

Virginia

I mean, I have such a long list.

Corinne

I feel like it’s also worth revisiting just how many things are processed foods. We can link back to that episode.

One ultra processed food that I really love is bread.

Virginia

Bread is great. Big fan. Love bread. Love a sandwich.

Corinne

Makes my life so much better.

Virginia

Named my newsletter after it. actually.

I’m gonna name three MVPs. Rao’s pasta sauce. Such a good jarred pasta sauce, great pasta with Rao’s on it for dinner. If I need just a fast, easy dinner. I can add a side of fruit and vegetables to that. I can not. It’s great. I love it.

Frozen chocolate chip pancakes are a significant percentage of my children’s diets. They have them for breakfast with their smoothies most morning. After school snacks. It’s a meal they can make themselves because you just pop them in the microwave for a minute. I made some for a sick kid in the middle of recording episodes today with Corinne! It’s just a total go-to.

The brand we buy is actually surprisingly reasonably high in protein. I feel like people forget that protein is in foods like pancakes and pasta, but it totally is.

And then Amy’s frozen cheese and bean burritos. I just described to you one of my children, basically what they live on. And we’re covering a lot of nutrient bases this way. These are foods that she can make herself very easily. I can make for her easily. If she hates what I’ve made for dinner, I know she’s not going to starve. Everything about them is great. They’re just great staples of feeding kids. And I love them.

Corinne

I really thought you were going to say protein powder!

Virginia

I mean, we’ve talked about that before.

I have such a long list, but I was just thinking what are the things that go on the grocery list every week that I know we go through in significant quantities every week. And it’s like, easily, a jar of pasta sauce, easily, two bags of those pancakes, easily eight burritos. Those are staples for us.

Corinne

Yeah. I was trying to think about what they are for me. I often get a frozen pizza from Whole Foods, just the Whole Foods brand frozen pizza. It’s a good backup last minute meal for me. Bread, pasta.

Virginia

Have we mentioned bread enough?

Corinne

Also like, candy. I love chocolate. I feel really good when I have some type of chocolate candy in my cupboard. Tate’s chocolate chip cookies. Love to have those on hand. God, I don’t know, it’s endless.

Virginia

I really think the conversation around this whole category of foods needs so much more nuance. I am not against more regulation in the food industry if there are concerns about the levels of sugar, salt, and fat. But I think this is a regulate the industry issue. I am not here for the argument that people need to cook more from scratch, need to cook more complicated dishes, need to not rely on the convenience and efficiency of foods that offer a lot of nutrition. There’s such diversity in this category of food.

Corinne

I’m also thinking just off the top of my head, like, DoorDash. I love to DoorDash myself a sub sandwich with ultra processed meat in it. Mayonnaise. Love mayonnaise.

Virginia

My God. Imagine life without mayonnaise.

I don’t want to think about that world. Being so rigid about this whole category of foods is bad. It’s just so quickly going to fall apart unless you are growing all your own food and doing all of that totally from scratch. And there are people who do that, and that’s wonderful. But most people don’t live in a place where they can do that. They have other jobs, have children, whatever. This is not a category of food we need to just completely erase. We need some better industry regulation around it, absolutely. And then we need to just give people respect for understanding the context of their lives and making their own choices.

Corinne

Yeah, or give people more time off.

Virginia

Always a good thought.

Corinne

Not so that they have to make their own food, but…

Virginia

But if you want a society where people make their own food, what are you doing to actually make that possible?

Corinne

All right, next question is for you, Virginia.

What are you making in your air fryer, assuming you got one?

Virginia

I did get one. I got it in the Black Friday sale. I bought the Breville—We’ll link to it. It’s from William Sonoma.

Corinne

Everyone calls it Breville.

Virginia

Okay, so I’m already such an expert. The Breville. What else is my oven called? You’re the one who found it for me.

Corinne

Breville air fryer toaster oven.

Virginia

Okay, that’s what I got. I think it has a fancier name, but that’s fine. It’s what it is.

You had sent me the link. And said, everyone’s talking about this one being so good. And then when it went on super sale for Black Friday, I got it, and I freaking love it. I am converted. I guess I should probably do an air fryer essay at some point, or like a round up of what I making in it.

I talked last week about how I’m making chocolate chip cookies with great regularity, because it’s easy to make a smaller quantity of cookies, and you can make them really fast, which is fun.

They are great, as everyone told me they would be, for chicken nuggets and french fries and other frozen fried items that you want to make quickly.

Roast broccoli has been really delicious in it. I mean, mine also replaced my toaster, so, I’m toasting a bagel in it most mornings. What are some other go-tos?

Julia Turshen has a great newsletter called an ode to her air fryer. And she includes a recipe for this kale salad with chickpeas on top. And you do the chickpeas in the air fryer to make them really crispy. And I made that for Christmas, and I’m gonna make that possibly for dinner tonight, now that we’ve just talked about it because it was so freaking good. The chickpeas are excellent.

Also on my list to do that way is meatballs. Anything you can do in your oven you can do quicker in your air fryer, is the bottom line. Fish is the other thing I’m doing quite a lot in there.

Corinne

Like frozen fish?

Virginia

I do thaw the fish before, because you can thaw fish really fast. But Amy Palanjian has a recipe for salmon bites that’s really good that I’ve done in the air fryer. I think that’s the main way I’ve done fish so far. It’s shortening my cooking time. So it’s making dinner feel like less of a production because I can throw something in there and be doing something else and it’ll be done in the same time, as opposed to like, oh god, I forgot to preheat the oven an hour ago and I want to eat in 20 minutes. You can just skip that mental load of when to preheat the oven.

Corinne

Are you ever finding that you can’t fit enough of whatever you’re cooking for dinner in there?

Virginia

No, but I do think if I had a bigger household, that would be an issue. I’m usually cooking for a max of three people, and at least one of the children isn’t going to eat what’s going in the air fryer. You know what I mean? Or it’s like me and one other adult.

Or when I was hosting, I was using it, but for things like the chickpeas that were an ingredient, but not the whole meal. So I could make a full can of chickpeas to go on the salad. You couldn’t do a big hunk of meat roast in there, and you’re only going to make one dozen cookies at a time. But during the holidays, when I was making a whole bunch of cookies, I could fill up my oven and stick an extra dozen in the air fryer and it was a value add. So if you’re doing something en masse, it’s giving you another oven.

Corinne

It does make me want one.

Virginia

Well, we measured your counters, and this one won’t fit, but we’ll have to find you a smaller one.

Corinne

I have an air fryer lid for my Instant Pot, but I find it really annoying and inconvenient to use.

Virginia

That feels like too many trendy appliances trying to be everything.

Corinne

The Instant Pot is round too, so you really can’t fit very much in there.

Virginia

Yeah. This is the nice thing about the toaster oven style is it’s a quarter baking sheet size. Which was often what I was putting in the oven anyway. So now I’ve just saved the time of heating the whole big oven.

Corinne

That’s a decent size.

Virginia

I’ll read the next one. Okay, this person writes,

I’ve finally embraced having a regular Coke. It’s delicious. I do get excited when I go to a restaurant and they have Mexican Coke, since it’s made with sugar and, quote, better than high fructose corn syrup. Is this just diet culture trying to get me to spend five times as much on a bougie coke?

Corinne

This is an interesting question. Um, I feel like, yes and no. I’m also not a Coke expert. Does it taste different? I don’t know.

Virginia

It does. Mexican Coke does taste different. They are definitely upselling you.

Corinne

It’s also the glass bottle.

Virginia

Yeah, it’s trendy and cute. You’re buying the cocktail version of a Coke, basically.

Corinne

But it is the same amount of sugar, just one has more fructose versus glucose?

Virginia

That is my understanding. So, yeah, it’s diet culture to tell yourself that Mexican Coke is healthier than American Coke, because it’s sugar and sugar. It’s a wash. And yes, they are selling you on the fact that people think it’s cute in the little glass bottle.

Corinne

And also, if you like to get it, it’s fine.

Virginia

It’s a fancy way to drink Coke, and that seems delightful for you.

Corinne

Next question.

How to manage all the no buy, buy only five things, etc, which seems just like New Year’s diet restrictions.

Virginia

I feel like this is a little bit of a call in for us, since we are in the middle of our No Amazon January.

And I just want to say, with all the love: I get this response to not buying things. Like, this is my first response. And we can link back to the conversation I had with Christyna Johnson last year, where she is very much a proponent of no buy experiments, and yet we talked about how they can bring up diet culture stuff. And my bottom line is: If it feels like a diet for you, you shouldn’t do it. Don’t do it.

Corinne

Totally. I would say, if listening to us talk about it makes you feel bad, then don’t listen.

I do feel like there’s a slight difference between moralizing about food and moralizing about like—

Virginia

Consumer goods?

Corinne

And these billionaires who are actually doing evil in the world.

Virginia

Well, there’s not the health component to this. I’m not like, oh, I’m quitting Amazon for my health, right? I’m like, I’m quitting Amazon because Jeff Bezos is a terrible human being.

Corinne

I’m not quitting Amazon to try and make myself thinner.

Virginia

No, I do not expect to be thinner. I feel that it will have no bearing on my weight. But any of these experiments come with some moralizing, some expectation of perfectionism that’s hard to shed, right?

I think this listener will feel better when they listen to our wrap-up of the Amazon experiment, because I don’t think Corinne and I are shooting for perfection.

Corinne

I don’t feel like I’m deprived in any way by doing this, you know? There might be certain things that do make my life a little bit more annoying, but I don’t feel like I’m going through major deprivation, right?

Virginia

I don’t feel deprivation, but what I do think may happen is guilt when I fail at this in some way. And that guilt of like, my life became hard and complicated, and so I needed to take an easier route here, and not being able to have grace for that is similar to what happens when people fall off diets or fall off workout plans, because it becomes too hard to sustain those things within the real context of their life.

That hasn’t happened to me yet, but when and if that does, I am interested in how will I release that guilt and be like, this doesn’t need to be a perfection thing. And I think depending where you are in your divestment from dieting, this may not be good for you, because it may just trigger that same stuff.

I haven’t been on a diet since my 11-year-old was two. So I feel like I’ve got some time and space from the way that used to mess with my head, and I can experiment with something like this in a way that feels really different, but that’s just where I am with it.

Corinne

Yeah, I think it’s not like saying I’m not going to eat ice cream. It’s like, I’m not going to eat ice cream from McDonald’s. There’s still so many other options for buying the exact same stuff. Is it better for the world? Who knows?

Virginia

We don’t know. And I just really come down to like, I’m not proselytizing this. Like, if it doesn’t feel like it serves you, I think there are lots of good reasons why the context of peoples’ lives mean that cutting down consumer spending is not the thing they need to put bandwidth and energy towards.

Corinne

Yeah, and I think we also decided to do no Amazon for January. I’m not doing a no buy year.

Virginia

Seeing how this feels for January. So stay tuned for next month when you get our full report on whether we keep it going.

Okay, next question. This is a very fun one, and kind of related to the no buy stuff.

What three questions should I ask myself before clicking purchase?

Corinne

Oh man. Honestly hard to limit myself to three.

Virginia

Okay, give me some of them.

Corinne

Okay, here are some of them.

1. Have I bought stuff from this brand before that has not worked out?

2. How do I wash this? Is it dry clean only or hang dry?

3. Do I own anything similar?

Virginia

I don’t want to answer that one.

Corinne

I’m not saying if the answer is yes, that you don’t necessarily buy it! Just something to consider.

1. What’s the return policy?

Virginia

That is a big one! I have been burned so many times! Summersalt, I am talking about you! And your absolute predatory lack of return policy information.

Corinne

It’s always worth considering.

1. What is it made out of? Like, are you buying something really expensive that’s made out of plastic? Or are you buying something really expensive that’s Mongolian lamb’s wool?

2. What could I wear it with? I feel like it’s good to have at least an idea of how you’re going to wear a thing that you want to add to your closet.

Virginia

Is it final sale?

Corinne

Yeah, I mean, return policy.

Virginia

I know, but I just want to shout out the final sale thing because sometimes I think that’ll be okay and it has almost never been okay.

Corinne

Well, I think also, along those lines, it’s good to consider: Am I just wanting to buy this because it’s on deep discount? I have definitely been there.

Virginia

So many times.

Corinne

I think that’s about it for me. But that’s a lot more than three.

Virginia

That’s an amazing list. Like, you just wrote a

Big Undies

newsletter for us. I don’t think I have anything to add other than specifically shouting out the evils of Summersalt again. I’ve spent so much money on their bathing suits. But they don’t work for people with boobs. So if you have boobs, just don’t shop there and don’t be me, and keep thinking that it’s worth trying them again, because it’s not.

Also for some reason on my last order, they wouldn’t give me a refund. I can only exchange. So I’m just like, repeatedly sending back two swimsuits that keep not working to try two more. Just take my $200. Like, fuck it. You robbed me, Summersalt. So that and final sale are not your friends.

Corinne

Ready for the next question?

If you operated a hotel of your dreams, what would the amenities be?

Virginia

Ooh, I love this. This is so fun. Absolutely room service. I think a lot of even nice hotels are phasing out room service and I’m strongly against it. I don’t want to go sit in your restaurant, especially if I’m traveling alone. I want to eat dinner in bed watching bad hotel TV. And I don’t want to have to go downstairs and come back upstairs.

Corinne

That’s a really good point.

Virginia

I feel very strongly about that.

What would you add?

Corinne

It’s funny because I was going to say an enormous and luxurious complimentary breakfast buffet. But I feel like now that I’ve heard yours, I’d rather have room service.

Virginia

Just bring it to me actually.

Corinne

Enormous and free luxury breakfast buffet in my room.

Virginia

Set up in my room. That sounds fabulous. I’m going to say enormous and luxurious bathrobes and towels, because that is never the case.

Corinne

I was going to say spa amenities, like pool, hot tub, sauna, steam room. Stables. You know.

Virginia

Stables. Visiting puppies would be nice. Puppy happy hour. I might leave my room for that, to go pet the dogs.

This is going to tie back to our processed food conversation. My stepmother has this really great rant she does periodically about how we cannot be mad at families for eating at McDonald’s until good restaurants start putting in play places. Because it is, like the most brilliant thing McDonald’s ever did, that, like, you can go and eat dinner and your kids can be in the play place. It is always gross, and some kids peed in it, like it is what it is, but if you are trying to eat out to dinner as a family with any child under the age of eight, a play place is a godsend. And nice restaurants should have them, and it’s gross that they don’t.

Corinne

What about just child care?

Virginia

Child care would be great. But I’m saying specifically at this hotel, I want there to be a great playground. If it’s not a hotel that accepts children, it’s fine. If it’s an adults only hotel, I respect that. I’d rather just know up front. But if you accept children, I would like there to be a good playground option near where parents can sit and eat their meal. That’s not like out back somewhere. I want to be able the parents can sit and have their cocktail and their dinner, and the kids can be on the play structure.

Corinne

One thing I was thinking about was gyms, but I actually sort of feel like I don’t really care about a hotel gym and I would prefer like a hotel garden or something.

Virginia

Much better. No one needs a hotel gym.

Virginia

So our last question is for our new Ask Corinne segment about dating and sex. And this person wants to know:

What are some good prompts or questions to ask on dating apps?

And I think we should expand this to include good questions to ask on dates.

Corinne

Yeah, this is an interesting question. I hate answering the prompts on dating apps.

Virginia

Yes. Those cutesy prompts are so annoying.

Corinne

One thing I sometimes like to ask on a date is: What is your schedule? Very basic. But I feel like it can be really hard and annoying to date someone who has an insanely different schedule than you.

Virginia

No, I think that’s smart.

Corinne

Even in terms of like, getting up early versus staying up late. And also, like, do they work weekends and you work the week? Or do they work nights and you work days?

Virginia

I mean, as a divorced parent, I think this actually comes up really quickly. But there was one guy I went on a date with over the summer who I didn’t want a second date with for so many reasons, but one part of it was I figured out our custody schedules were opposite. And I was like, “Well just forget it we’ll never line up. There’s no point, you don’t exist to me.”

Corinne

Yeah, it’s not a fun or sexy question, but it can really make or break things.

Virginia

I read a really good piece by

Susan Cain

, author ofQuiet, about how to make conversation. And she talked about how a common mistake people make with questions is they ask fact-based questions instead of feeling-based questions.

So instead of saying, like, what do you do for work? I mean, you could start there, but then ask something like, “What’s the best part of your job?” Or what do you find most frustrating about that? So that then you’re getting people to go a layer deeper.

Corinne

That’s a really good tip to move it from facts to feelings.

I also think, like with the questions on apps, I think people can get really hung up on liking the same stuff, which I think can be important. It can be annoying if you’re dating someone and you have the completely different taste in movies or something. But I think if you see someone’s profile that’s naming all your favorite bands, it can be easy to be like, yes, this is the person for me.

Virginia

No, you just have similar Spotify algorithms.

Corinne

How important is that?

Virginia

The algorithm has picked this for you. So much of the connection is not like, do you both like the same sports.

Corinne

And also, sometimes it’s fun to learn about stuff through a person you’re dating.

Virginia

In terms of the profiles, I also realized it was important to mix it up because I think I had a detail about having a lot of house plants. And then it was like, every DM conversation the guy led with house plants. And I was like, “All I’m doing is talking to men about houseplants.”

Corinne

That’s really funny. Yeah. I mean, how much is there to say?

Virginia

I love houseplants, but I don’t need to tell everyone my most favorite houseplant. So mix it up for your own entertainment. in terms of what you put out there.

Corinne

This is reminding me that at one point I had “I can bake you a pie” or something. And then everyone would be like, “bake me a pie!!” And I’d be like, No. Something to know about me is I’m a good baker. And also, we don’t need to talk about it.

Virginia

You suddenly distill people down to these three nouns about them. Which I guess is just like a necessary stumbling block you have to get over to get to know someone. But it’s sort of a very fake connection to be like, “we both like pie, this must be a soulmate.”

Corinne

And pets, too. Honestly, like people say cute dog and I’m like, yeah, yeah.

Virginia

What are the other things to talk about? Besides like pets and hobbies? I want to hear what other people say to this. What are other good questions to ask?

I mean, we’ve talked plenty about how to suss out fatphobia and diet culture leanings. I think questions that get at values in general are good to get a read on whether you align enough there.

Corinne

Yeah, it does feel more vulnerable, though, to be like, I don’t want to date someone who thinks this, versus I like making pie.

Virginia

I don’t know that I put the values in a profile? I think that’s more once you’re on the date. Once you’re talking you need to do that.

One guy asked me where I most wanted to travel, which was kind of a good question.

Corinne

That’s a fun question.

Virginia

It was fun to think about. I think some of the questions that people send in for us to answer on Indulgence Gospel are good date questions.

Corinne

Five fingers!

Virginia

Five fingers! I just was doing that with my kid this morning. I was like, “What liquids would you put in your fingers?” And she was like, oh, well, pink lemonade and yellow lemonade. And I was like, oh clearly. I didn’t even know she liked lemonade!

Corinne

Mexican Coke and regular Coke.

Virginia

Your finger turns into the cute, tiny bottle. It’s great.

Corinne

Okay, my butter is the TV show Bad Sisters.

Virginia

I haven’t watched the new season. I’m excited.

Corinne

I just finished the new season and I started watching, and I was sort of like, oh, I don’t know if this show is holding up, but by the end, I was on board.

Virginia

Okay, okay, I’m excited for that. I heard mixed things about the second season, but I loved the first season so much. And I also was a little mixed on there being a second season, because it felt like such a little jewel box of a show, but I love them all so much.

Corinne

They’re just all so fun to watch. And I feel like there’s some real, like, twists and turns, just like the first season, that I really didn’t see coming.

Virginia

Yes. Oh man, so good. Okay, I’m excited for that. That’s a great Butter.

Okay, so my Butter is a card game that I’m playing quite a lot with my seven year old, but also was really fun to play with a group of all ages. And it’s called Taco Cat Goat Cheese Pizza, which is a very popular game. So a lot of people, at least with kids, are going to know it. I don’t know if you’ve played it Corinne.

Corinne

I have not.

Virginia

Okay, well, it’s very simple. You slap the cards down, and you take turns saying taco, cat, goat cheese pizza. And if when you say taco, you put down a taco, you all have to try to grab the card.

But my Butter is that they’ve released expansion packs where now there’s like, even more animals, and you have to do these silly motions. If it’s a panda card, you rub your belly.

And what’s funny about it is like adults tend to be worse at it than kids, because it’s like you have to remember motions and words and kids are just better at it. And it’s hilarious, and it gives us a lot of joy. If you already have it, definitely get the expansion pack, because there’s a moose, I forget what else, but it’s a good time. Oh, there’s pancakes.

Corinne

Wow, sounds really fun.

Virginia

Yeah, it’s cute.

You’re listening to Burnt Toast!

We are Virginia Sole-Smith and Corinne Fay, and today we’re getting into our Ins and Outs for 2025.

Most Indulgence Gospel episodes are paywalled, but we’re releasing today’s conversation for free as a January-has-been-a-lot-aleady treat!

If you enjoy this conversation, please consider supporting our work with a paid subscription.

You can also subscribe to Corinne's newsletter, Big Undies, for 20% off using this special link. 

To get all of the links and resources mentioned in this episode, as well as a complete transcript, visit our show page.

Also, don't forget to order Fat Talk: Parenting In the Age of Diet Culture! Get your signed copy now from Split Rock Books (they ship anywhere in the USA). You can also order it from your independent bookstore, or from Barnes & Noble, Amazon, Target, Kobo or anywhere you like to buy books. (Or get the UK edition or the audiobook!) 

Disclaimer: Virginia and Corinne are humans with a lot of informed opinions. They are not nutritionists, therapists, doctors, or any kind of healthcare providers. The conversation you're about to hear and all of the advice and opinions they give are just for entertainment, information, and education purposes only. None of this is a substitute for individual medical or mental health advice.

The Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith (follow me on Instagram) and Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus, andThank you for subscribing. Leave a comment or share this episode.

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Virginia

Okay, Corinne, since you introduced me to this concept, can you explain for the people what an in and out list is?

Corinne

This came onto my radar maybe two years ago. Everyone on Instagram was posting a screenshot of their Notes app, with a list on the left of things that are IN for the coming year. And on the right, a list of things that are OUT.

I think it’s kind of a fun exercise to do. You could really do it at any time of the year, but, you know, it’s New Year’s. We’re reflecting.

Virginia

Why not?

Corinne

It’s kind of like a resolution, but it’s a different framing. Because it’s this is what’s in for me this year. And this is what I’m leaving behind.

I also think a lot of the lists that I’ve liked and appreciated are a little cheeky. Like something that’s out will be something you’ve been seeing everywhere.

Virginia

And you’re over it.

On the diet culture front: You could certainly be like, “carbs are out,” and it would be very obviously diet culture. But it feels like there’s a little more room to breathe and make In/Out Lists not diet culture. Because it’s not even necessarily you resolving to do the things on your list. It could just be something you’re enjoying or bringing in. I like the flexibility of that a lot.

Corinne

That was one thing I wanted to bring up, because we talked about it last year. I intentionally have not looked back at my list from last year. I hate looking back at my old lists, because when I look at them, I literally feel like, who was that person? If I look back at old pictures of myself, I feel sort of tender for that younger version of myself. But when I look back at the in and out list, I’m like, who was that idiot?

Virginia

I think because they are cheeky and responding to trends? It’s kind of capturing a moment in time. Like, whatever is on your out list isa time capsule of the year before, which is fun, but it’s not necessarily going to be your truest core self. These are whims, these are our hot takes or unpopular opinions on things in this moment. It’s fine. I don’t think we have to look back at it. I don’t think we have to hold ourselves to these things lasting all year long. It’s just where we are in this particular moment.

Corinne

Definitely. It’s also something that I enjoy as a social activity. I like to ask my friends, what’s in and what’s out for you?

Virginia

Did I end up making one last year? I can’t even remember.

Corinne

I think you did, but I think it was a little late. I didn’t look back for yours because I didn’t want to look back for mine.

Virginia

Right, right? We’ll just let that go into the ether.

[Post-recording note: Or you can find Virginia’s 2024 list here, if you’re curious!]

Corinne

Another thing I’ve seen people doing around New Years is the bingo card, instead of an in and out list.

Virginia

Oh yeah, someone dropped this in chat this week. What is a bingo card? I don’t understand.

Corinne

The concept is basically that you make a bingo board. So what is that? Five by five squares? And each square has a thing in. It can be activities you want to do, or it can be outlandish predictions like, “Drake will be the Super Bowl performer.” Or a combination of both. And then you try to get bingo, and reward yourself.

And this year, I was sort of feeling like, ooh, that feels a little more fun. Because I have some things that I wanted to put on my in/out list that don’t really fit. Like, getting a tattoo, or visiting my sister—you know, stuff like that is a little more concrete and bingo card-ish.

Virginia

Okay, well you decided it was an in and out episode, though. So that’s what I’ve come prepared to discuss.

Corinne

I’ve still come prepared to discuss in and outs! I just wanted to present the bingo card as a concept.

Virginia

We’re noting that we are aware of it in the zeitgeist—at least Corinne is. And I am now aware of it, so I appreciate that.

Corinne

Yeah, and if ins/outs feels bad to you, then you could do bingo. Or you could do nothing.

Virginia

This may just be where my brain is on this particular day, but the whole making a grid of five squares is like sounding hard and sort of like math homework. And I’m like, no, no, don’t make me do it. But I might feel differently another day.

Corinne

I would lose it. Like, where would I keep it? Because I don’t know how to do that in my notes app.

Virginia

I mean, I had to text you and be like, “How do we make a table in the notes app?” So this is where I’m starting.

Alright, Corinne, kick us off. Give us your first.

Corinne

Well, as you might expect, I have a lot of ins and outs that are somewhat clothes related. So, IN for me is wearing one thing over and over again. OUT is buying multiples of the exact same thing. That’s something I’m really trying to let go of this year.

Virginia

As I’m wearing a sweater right now, which I own in four colors, I really respect that. Because you don’t ever like the thing in the multiple colors the same way. It’s very rare.

Corinne

I feel like we’ve talked about how this often doesn’t work. So I’m going to try and be aware of that. And I will say, I’ve already been tempted. As I was writing about the stuff I wore on my road trip, I was like, dang, I should really just buy another pair of those Universal Standard cargo jeans because I like them so much.

This Christmas was a particularly exciting one for me because I have a new nephew! And it was my first time getting to meet him, plus my first trip to Oregon, where my sister lives. The drive from New Mexico is about 19 hours, which I did over the course of 3 days / 2 nights (one short day and two longer…

Virginia

You do.

Corinne

But I’m trying not to.

Virginia

So you’re referring to not buying multiples of the same exact item. Like, not just “Oh, I’m going to get the sweater in three colors.” But like, you would be tempted to buy two of the same sweater in the same color, if you liked it.

Corinne

Yes. I have this striped shirt from Target that I like, and I have two green ones and one blue one. Granted, I think they cost $10, but do I really need two of the exact same green striped shirt? Because I also have other striped shirts, you know? And then I’m trying to use this app Indyx to keep track of my closet. And I’m like, how do I even put in two of the exact same green shirt?

Virginia

Yeah, that’s confusing. I mean, I love a uniform, so I admit I fall for the multiples concept. I have my Beyond Yoga joggers in three colors, and I just rotate through them all week long in the winter. But I have definitely been burnt by this rule as well. So I agree it could be out, or at least heavy reflection before committing to something in multiples.

Corinne

Yeah, I think it’s also way easier to buy the multiples of a thing that’s really cheap. I’m doing this at Target and Old Navy, you know? And then that doesn’t feel good.

Virginia

Yeah, The Beyond Yoga joggers are an investment. I bought one pair and was wearing them constantly and then built up the collection when they go on sale. It’s a little different.

Corinne

What’s on your list?

Virginia

Okay, I’ll do a clothing one, too. IN for me is bootcut pants. And I feel like this is going to be controversial, but OUT for me is the wide-cropped Colette pants that everybody loves and that I loved like three months ago, but I don’t love anymore.

Now, I am open to that changing in the summer. I really feel like for me, a wide legged crop pant is a warm weather style. I need to treat them like shorts. I cannot crack the boot styling with them. The boot and sock styling, I cannot crack it. I just feel like a crazy art teacher, and not in an aesthetic choice way. Just in a what happened way, when I get dressed in it.

But I have been wearing some boot cut pants, also from Beyond Yoga. And I’m like, why did we banish this trend for so long? They’re kind of cute and comfy. I don’t know, I like them.

Corinne

That’s exciting. And so bootcut—they’re touching your shoes?

Virginia

They are, yes. They touch my shoes. They are fitted through the thigh, and then there’s a slight flare, but not all the way to full flare. And they look cute with running shoes. And they also look good with a boot—like a chunky boot or probably any boot. I mean, these are leggings materials, so I don’t wear them with a dressy boot. That feels odd to me. But a casual boot. But I am now like, do I want some nice black pants that are a bootcut?

Corinne

Or jeans?

Virginia

I haven’t tried bootcut jeans—I mean, in this millennia, obviously. I wore them plenty in the 90s, but I am like, oh, a high waisted bootcut jean is interesting to me. So TBD on that. But that’s where I am on pants right now, which is a new place.

Corinne

That’s cool. Are you going to get rid of the Colette ones? Or seeing what happens?

Virginia

I’m going to hold on to them for the warmer weather. I have them in denim. And I thought they were going to go through the fall/winter, and they are not. But I’m going to put them over in my shorts pile and treat them like a summer clothing item. I think that’s what they are for me. At least bare ankles weather, which, we’re recording this in 12 degrees in New York right now. So it is not bare ankles weather. So that may be heavily influencing my pants feelings at the moment.

What’s next for you?

Corinne

Okay, my next one is kind of a response to some events, so I’ll just say that. Okay, IN: Bird watching. OUT: TikTok.

Virginia

Amazing.

Corinne

Just for the record, Tiktok will not be out if it doesn’t get banned.

Virginia

But you are making your peace with that possibility.

Corinne

If it does get banned, I’m replacing it with bird watching.

Virginia

Well, my next one is very related. We’re really in sync here. IN for me is Bird Buddy, which is my new video bird feeder. And OUT for me is Instagram.

So I now am like, oh, do I need to get you a Bird Buddy? Because let me explain to you what is so great about this. It’s a little bird feeder with a video camera in it, and it connects to an app on your phone. So not only do they send you photos when birds land on the feeder, so you get an exciting notification every now and then, it also has a livestream!

So instead of scrolling Instagram, I can livestream my bird feeders and it is the most soothing thing ever, Corinne. I’m just like, oh, nothing’s happening. Oh, here’s a chickadee. Okay, nothing’s happening now. Oh, here’s a nuthatch.

Corinne

IN: bird media. OUT: social media.

Virginia

As people who read the newsletter know, I took a three week Instagram break over Christmas, and I was like, oh, I think my brain is so much happier. So now I’m trying a thing where, since I have to go on Instagram for work to post about the newsletter or whatever, I download the app, post, answer a few DMS, delete the app. And this is what I’m trying this week. We’ll see. I am really interested in less Instagram time for me. Tiktok is not my challenge. I never got hooked into it. But I think birds are the thing to replace this stuff with. I think we’re really onto something! And I’m just saying, a bird app really helps.

Corinne

Yeah, that does sound cool. The Merlin bird app has been a Butter for me before, and I got a pair of binoculars for Christmas.

Virginia

Ooh, delightful.

Corinne

Going to try to be using the binoculars.

Virginia

Yeah, yeah. Are you going out bird watching in places or backyard bird watching?

Corinne

You know, I haven’t gone yet. But that’s on my goals. That would be on my bingo card.

Virginia

To go on a bird watch.

Corinne

To go bird watching. I also weirdly have a lot of friends here who are really into bird watching, so I’m hoping one of them will take me under their wing.

Virginia

I noticed the bird humor there. We’re going to go past that, but that did happen. But if they don’t take you under their wing, come to New York and my mother will take you bird watching. Bird watching is, I would say, conservatively, 70 percent of my mother’s personality. It is her deep passion, her retirement hobby, calling, what have you. She does it all the time. So she’s also on the live stream. Oh! I can add you to my Bird Buddy!

Corinne

Oh yeah! Because I think my dog will chase the birds away if I get a feeder for my yard.

Virginia

Okay, I will add you when we are done recording so you can check out the live stream whenever you want and get the notifications. Also, to be clear, it’s actually not my Bird Buddy. I gave it to my 11 year old for Christmas, and she does also really love it. And there’s a thing where you can name the frequent visitor birds. She’s naming them. So I got it for her, because she’s always loved birds, and now I’m totally hooked.

Well. That was like 90 minutes on birds, but that feels right.

Give us another one.

Corinne

Okay, my next one is: IN for me, decluttering. OUT for me, organizing.

Virginia

Okay, say more, because how are they not the same thing?

Corinne

Well, I feel like I had this revelation last year (thanks to this post) where I was, like, before I can do any organizing, I actually just need to get rid of some stuff. Like, it’s like, it’s just never going to stay organized if—

Virginia

If there’s too much?

Corinne

I need to just have less stuff. I’m not ever going to be a minimalist. But before I’m organizing, I need to be letting some stuff go.

Virginia

So organizing is out for you, but maybe not out forever?

Corinne

It’s not that being organized is out. It’s organizing is not a solution to having too much stuff, I guess.

Virginia

Yeah, it’s like, maybe you’ll revisit that concept if you do pare down the stuff to the point where some system of organization can contain it. But currently that is not an option.

Corinne

Right. And it’s like that thing where you buy the containers for your pantry, rather than first you need to get rid of all the stuff that’s expired.

Virginia

Totally, totally, yes.

Corinne

That’s a conceptual one, you know?

Virginia

It is high concept, but I’m here for it.

This is maybe also going to be a little controversial. IN for me is baking cookies in my air fryer. OUT for me—but trust me, controversial, at least locally in my house—are Tate’s cookies.

Corinne

Oh, wow. I’m obsessed with Tate’s cookies.

Virginia

So is my seven year old. We go through conservatively two bags a week, and I think I get to eat one of them. One cookie, to be clear.

Corinne

They have the crunch level of potato chips. It’s so easy to eat a whole bag.

Virginia

They’re delicious. They are absolutely delicious. I’m not saying they’re not delicious. I am saying they are like $7 a bag.

Meanwhile, I’ve been buying the tub of the Nestle Toll House cookie dough from the grocery store—you can get a giant tub for like $7 so it’s going to make way more cookies. And my air fryer has a cookie setting! So you can bake 12 cookies in the air fryer so much faster than you can bake them in the oven. And if you make sure the dough is warm enough before you put them in, they get spread out and thin, very similar to the Tate’s cookies.

You all know me. I love an ultra processed food. I’m not here to say from scratch is better. I can also bake cookies fully from scratch. I’m not doing that here. I’m using the store bought dough. But the delightfulness of being able to have warm cookies, because also this way the cookies are warm! Which is the best. The Tate’s ones are not warm. And when it’s a movie night or something, just like, I’m going to bake 12 cookies really fast so we can eat them while we watch the movie.

Corinne

That’s awesome. It sounds great. I mean, if I had to choose between Tate’s and fresh baked cookies, I would choose fresh baked.

Virginia

I think we all would. But I would previously not have gone to the effort until I discovered the store bought dough and how much faster they are to bake in my air fryer. But I will tell you, it’s not popular. The other day, we had both options available, and the seven year old went for the Tate’s. She was like, “I don’t like those homemade cookies.”

And I was like, “They aren’t even fully homemade!” So I don’t know that I’m going to be able to actually decrease my Tate’s budget. I may have to do some subtle transitioning over? But for me personally, I think they’re tastier, so.

Corinne

That’s a good one.

Okay, I’m going to do a food one too, then. It’s also maybe a little silly. IN for me is beef stews or stewed beef type of things. OUT is pulled pork.

Virginia

Whoa.

Corinne

I’ve got to be honest, I have not been eating a lot of pulled pork. But we made a pot roast when I was at my sister’s house, which is something I’ve never made before, and is not something that my mom served growing up. It was delicious. And now I’m aspiring to eat more pot roast. And I’ve a couple times made the Alison Roman chili recipe, which has beef chuck in it instead of ground beef.

Virginia

Oh, that is a good way to make chili.

Corinne

And I think I’m going to try a brisket soon. So I’m into huge chunks of beef as opposed to huge chunks of pork.

Virginia

Okay, but I don’t know why we’re being anti the huge chunk of pork.

Corinne

It’s arbitrary. Maybe I could think of a better out for that if I worked on it. But I feel like pulled pork has been in for a long time.

Virginia

It’s true.

I actually also have a meat-related one. Why are we so in sync? Our brains are on a mind meld.

So mine, I will disclaim before I even say it—lots of privilege involved here! Privilege to be able to make a more expensive grocery choice not available to everyone. I think it’s clear with all of these, we’re not endorsing these as lifestyle plans for the rest of you.

Corinne

These are highly personal.

Virginia

So mine is IN small butcher meat and eggs, OUT grocery store meat and eggs.

The backstory: I have two children who are vegetarian or vegetarian-leaning. I am not interested in being a vegetarian, I’m sorry. But in a attempt to be be more aware of the many issues around meat consumption, I have decided that this year, I’m going to commit to only buying meat from our local butcher who specializes in animals raised on small farms. These were the happiest of cows, given every opportunity, a good college education, etc. So I’m only going to buy our meat and our eggs from them, and I’m not going to buy the grocery store stuff.

It is more expensive, but it’s a great local business in our community. They add a lot of value. I would love to help make sure they stay here. So that is a shift I’m making. I value farmers and what they do, and I want to be being more mindful of that, since it is something I can do,

Corinne

That’s cool. That’s a good one!

Um, okay, I have one other food one that’s a little silly. IN as a pastry / dessert flavor in for me, passion fruit. OUT as a pastry, dessert flavor, matcha.

Virginia

Was matcha ever in?

Corinne

I feel like yes.

Virginia

Did anyone really like it? Or is it like how everyone says they read the books on the Booker list awards, but they don’t really read them?

Corinne

Oh, I don’t know. I like matcha as a drink. I don’t want a matcha eclair. But I would like a passionfruit eclair.

Virginia

I just want chocolate.

Corinne

All of this is irrelevant to you, nevermind.

Virginia

It’s very opaque to me, but I’m glad for you.

The next one is another little bit more high concept. It’s about colors I’m feeling right now for myself and for for my house and for my wardrobe. IN is dark teal, dark green, like evergreen forest green, and pink. OUT for me, is light gray.

I should say, pink is always in for me, but different shades of pink. I’m leaning a little more hot pink these days, a little over the millennial blush pink. But all the pinks.

Corinne

Oooh, that’s a good one, yes.

Virginia

And I was explaining to you the other day, I have realized light gray clothing makes me look dead. It makes me look like a corpse. And yet I own so much of it. It’s a color that is heavily marketed to Millennial Moms. Because it’s very minimalist. You should have the fisherman sweater in this color. And I don’t know, I just feel like I’m always being told to wear light gray and I’m done. I’m not doing it anymore. So it feels good.

Corinne

I love that. I feel like those colors look good together, too.

Virginia

Yeah, it’s also kind of my book cover again, and I don’t really know how I feel about that, but I’m expecting it to evolve. I’m saying these are colors I’m feeling right now, but I am in the process of trying to choose a new living room sofa, and I feel like I’ve always gone for blues. Well, in my heart, I want a cream sofa, but I know my life. But in the past, I would have always gone towards more blue, gray colors. And I’m now feeling like a forest green or a deep teal or something.

Corinne

I’m really into forest green as well.

Virginia

But does that mean we’ll be sick of it soon and I shouldn’t put it in a sofa where I’m not going to want to replace it for a long time?

Corinne

I think it’s a classic.

Virginia

I think it’s like navy, where you can build around it. You can change the pop of colors around it. Okay, I’m glad we had that talk.

Corinne

Okay. This one is a little more clothes-related and this is something I really need to work on. IN for me, accessories. OUT for me, matching sets.

Virginia

Oh!

Corinne

I thought you might feel targeted by that.

Virginia

I feel a little called out, I only just got into matching sets like six months ago, and now you’re taking them from—well, not from me, from you.

Corinne

I had a realization. I bought a few matching sets last summer and then ended up only wearing the shorts. And I was just like, hmm, do I really like matching sets, or do I just like the concept?

Virginia

I love the concept, but I understand.

Corinne

And I’m feeling I really want to beef up on my accessories collection.

Virginia

I support this. Are you a “I want a set of accessories I wear all the time” person or do you want to mix and match different outfits have different accessories?

Corinne

I want to mix and match. I wear very basic stuff so I feel like some accessories could make it feel more fun and fancy. I feel like I’m seeing a lot of brooches? Pins could be interesting. Plus the whole bonnet/hood/balaclava thing.

Virginia

You’ve been wanting a bonnet forever. If this is not the year you get it, I don’t even know.

Corinne

I mean, I just feel like the bonnet season in Albuquerque is so short that I can’t really justify having a lot of them.

Virginia

Where is the bonnet season ever long? What climate does one wear a bonnet for?

Corinne

Well, I feel like, in New York, you could probably wear them through March. I feel like here it’s probably just December and January.

Virginia

Are you talking about like a wool bonnet for warmth?

Corinne

Yeah, that’s what I was thinking, like a knit one.

Virginia

Because you’ve also been interested in fabric bonnets, like cotton.

Corinne

Yeah, that’s true. Okay, well, yeah, that might be a little bit of a longer season.

Virginia

You could wear that whenever you’re feeling like a little Puritan cosplay. Okay, well, I still endorse you getting a bonnet anyway, because I think your heart has wanted one for a long time. And I agree it will be a jaunty accessory.

Corinne

Yes, thank you. Also, jewelry. You know, jewelry has been in for a while now. Shoes.

Virginia

Okay, my last one is also going back to clothing. And it’s really more about my out than my in, because my in has been in for me for a while, but my IN is two piece bathing suits. They are easier when you are dealing with children and you’re gonna have to go to the bathroom. I know you can do the pull to the side move in a one piece, but I don’t like it. It is easier to wear a two piece and only body hangups keep us from that ease.

So I’m pro two piece bathing suits for myself, specifically, and also the world, if that is interesting to you. And what is OUT for me is the one piece with what my friend Mary calls apology ruching.

My friend Mary went to Great Wolf Lodge, which is a local indoor water park situation. I’ve never been, but I hear tales. And she was like, “Virginia, we’re at this water park over winter break with the kids. It’s like all families and their kids. And every mom in her 40s or late 30s was wearing the one piece with ruching.” Which is like, what is it meant to hide? Because it hides nothing! It does nothing. It’s your body, but now it has some bumpy fabric on top. It’s a way of signaling that you’ve tried to cover yourself. “I tried to prevent you understanding that I have a belly.”

Corinne

I mean, ruching is for sure out. But also, the thing I’ll say about that is, it’s very hard to find a one piece bathing suit without ruching! My top bathing suit is a one piece from Land’s End, and I would so strongly prefer that it did not have ruching, but that’s not an option.

Virginia

No, I understand. It’s one of those obnoxious things, especially about plus size swimwear. Ruching is the plus size swimwear equivalent of the cold shoulder top. It’s like, no one asked for this, but they put it on everything. But that’s why I’m going over to two pieces. And my hack for two pieces, especially for if you are busty like I am, and you need a family friendly swimsuit, is sports bra. Cute, colored sports bra, fun pattern on the bottom, high waisted bottoms, is my formula. And I just feel like it gives you more versatility, frankly, as a family friendly swimsuit.

People can handle seeing three inches of your midsection and you’re not doing this apology ruching game.

Corinne

A lot of high waisted two piece bottoms also have ruching.

Virginia

They do. And I will not be purchasing them.

Corinne

Hopefully we have some swimsuit designers listening.

Virginia

Yeah, get on this, people. No one wants it. No one asked for it. Especially with moms who are concerned about, quote, mom, body things. It’s like, this way of being like, “Maybe I used to be confident displaying my body at a communal swimming place, but I no longer am, so I have ruched my midsection.” No more!

Well, this was very fun. I loved all of these. I’m very excited about our ins and outs, and I want to hear what other people are doing.

Corinne

Yeah, me too. I really want to see what some other people have on their lists.

Virginia

And you don’t have to do the notes format if you don’t want, obviously. We’ll have ours in the transcript. You can just put them in the comments.

Corinne

Okay, my butter is the shirt that I’m wearing right now. It is called the Fay Chore Coat.

Virginia

It’s named after you!

Corinne

It is named after me. It comes from a brand called Connally goods, which is a small clothing company in Canada. They’re really cool. They have good sizing options, and I think they’re one of those brands that if you’re not on the size chart, they will work with you to make something anyways.

Virginia

Amazing.

Corinne

But anyways, because I have talked a lot about loving denim shirts and denim chore coats, they made this coat. It has snaps in the front.

Virginia

It’s adorable.

Corinne

It’s really cute. And I’ve been wearing it as a shirt. I think you could also wear it as a coat. The denim is not too thick. It’s pretty thin, but it’s really cute. And everyone should check it out.

Virginia

Also, can we just have a moment for like, you’re such a celebrity that someone named a coat after you? That’s pretty amazing. That’s a level of fame, few of us reach that peak is what I’m saying.

Corinne

I mean, I think it’s very niche. But, yes, I’m very famous within a very tiny niche.

Virginia

They’re

Big Undies

fans. We love that.

If you’re not reading Big Undies, this is your reminder yet again to please fix that. It’s so good people are naming clothing after Corinne! So that’s why you should be reading it. Also, if you’re a paid Burnt Toast subscriber, you get 20% off. The chore coat is adorable, and I feel like very versatile. Like you could wear it like open over striped shirt. You could do a lot with that.

And it is quintessential you, they really nailed your style. It’s awesome. I’m excited to shop there. That’s very cool.

Corinne

What’s your Butter?

Virginia

Okay, my Butter is what Corinne got me for Christmas, which is these amazing brownies from Vesta Chocolate.

Corinne sent me—I don’t even know how many you sent, there were many. It was a very full box of these amazing brownies. And they are like the richest, most super chocolatey brownies. And we all know I am someone with some authority on this subject. I am something of a brownie expert, and they are the most rich, super chocolatey brownies I’ve ever had.

Corinne

And I just want to say that I heard about these from Helen Rosner!

Virginia

Oh, well there you go. There you go! These are New Yorker food critic endorsed brownies.

[Come see Virginia and Helen discuss these brownies and other things IRL next Thursday, January 23! Tickets here.]

They’re so rich. Like, again, I am something of a brownie overachiever. I actually couldn’t eat a whole one, so I ended up cutting them into quarters. So you maybe sent a dozen brownies, and we ended up with like four dozen.

Corinne

Oh my God, that’s amazing.

Virginia

They were like the Jesus of brownies, they just kept making more loaves and fishes or whatever. It was great. When I was hosting a lot over the holidays, I could just have them out on the counter, just having a super decadent, delicious treat like that around all the time. Also a plug for food gifting in general, you really cannot go wrong. My food gift this year was I gave quite a few of this coffee cake that was recommended by

Julia Turshen

from a bakery called Zingerman’s. And I did gift one to myself as well, and was really glad I did that.

Corinne

I’ve given people stuff from Zingerman’s before. It’s really good.

Virginia

Yeah, their stuff is great, and it lasts a long time, too. So that’s awesome. So, general Butter of food gifting. But specifically, these brownies were off the charts, and I’m excited to see what else they ship.

All right, well, so much good stuff is in for 2025. It’s been like a little rocky start to January over here in the Sole-Smith household. We’ve got some flu, we’ve got some things going on, and this is picking up my mood quite a bit. So thank you!

The Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith (follow me on Instagram) and Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus, and Big Undies—subscribe for 20% off!

The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe.

Our theme music is by Farideh.

Tommy Harron is our audio engineer.

Thanks for listening and for supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism!

Welcome to Indulgence Gospel After Dark! It's time for your January Extra Butter! 

Today, we’re tackling two big topics:

1. Can you do a diet-y thing and still be an anti-diet advocate?

2. And can Corinne and Virginia divest from Amazon for one month?

(Or is that…also kind of diet-y???)

If you are already an Extra Butter subscriber, you’ll have this entire episode in your podcast feed and access to the entire transcript in your inbox and on the Burnt Toast Substack. To get all of the links and resources mentioned in this episode, as well as a complete transcript, visit our show page.

Otherwise, to hear the whole conversation or read the whole transcript, you'll need to join Extra Butter. It's just $99 per year, and is the hands down best way to keep Burnt Toast an ad- and sponsor-free space. 

PS. Don't forget to order Fat Talk: Parenting In the Age of Diet Culture! Get your signed copy now from Split Rock Books (they ship anywhere in the USA). You can also order it from your independent bookstore, or from Barnes & Noble, Amazon, Target, Kobo or anywhere you like to buy books. (Or get the UK edition or the audiobook!) 

Disclaimer: Virginia and Corinne are humans with a lot of informed opinions. They are not nutritionists, therapists, doctors, or any kind of healthcare providers. The conversation you're about to hear and all of the advice and opinions they give are just for entertainment, information, and education purposes only. None of this is a substitute for individual medical or mental health advice.

CREDITS

The Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith (follow me on Instagram) and Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus and Big Undies—subscribe for 20% off.

The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe.

Our theme music is by Farideh.

Tommy Harron is our audio engineer.

Thanks for listening and for supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism!

Thank you for subscribing. Leave a comment or share this episode.

Virginia

This feels like a very timely conversation for January. We are getting inundated with all of the diet talk, all of the urge for self improvement. This is the month where even if you’re staunchly anti-diet…you might start drifting that way. So we thought, let’s get into it. Let’s talk really honestly about what that means and what it looks like.

And then, on a related note, we are also going to talk about our own self improvement project—world improvement, I guess?— but also just Corinne and I trying to be better people. So we’re going to see: Can we divest from Amazon?

Also, just a quick note that you may hear some background noise in this episode, because there’s some construction happening at my house today, and they are banging things. And I’m sorry.

Corinne

I think we should start by talking about what we mean when we say, can you do something “diet-y?” What kind of things are we talking about here?

Virginia

Well I think of dieting as any time you are changing how you eat or exercise, with a weight loss goal in mind.

Corinne

Yes. So the kind of questions that we hear a lot are like, “can I cut one thing out of my diet, or can I track this specific macronutrient and still be anti-diet?”

Virginia

Can I count my protein? Can I go gluten free? Can I count my steps? It’s all of those kind of trendy habits that get marketed both for weight loss and for other reasons. And sometimes it’s the other reasons, and sometimes it’s the weight loss, and sometimes it’s hard to know why you want to do the thing.

Do you personally have any diet-y somethings, Corinne?

Corinne

I struggled a little bit to think of some, but I actually feel like I have so many!

First of all: Right now, I am wearing a fitness tracker.

Virginia

Oh my God.

Corinne

I wear a Fitbit. I love wearing a Fitbit. I am not one of those people who gets into a certain type of headspace about steps. I almost never look at the steps. What I love it for is the sleep tracking. I like waking up and getting a grade on my sleep, which might be—

Virginia

You like being judged first thing in the morning?

Corinne

Yeah! It’s like, good job I did great. Or I find it kind of validating sometimes, like, if you wake up feeling like shit and you’re like, Yeah I didn’t get enough REM last night.

Virginia

This is a big revelation, because I have written pieces critiquing Fitbits, which you have edited and never told me.

Corinne

I go in and out of it. I will wear it every day for months, and then sometime I’ll take it off and just not put it back on. And this is part of where, like, I’m not addicted to it.

I like getting the grade on the sleep. I like the watch element. I’ve never been a watch wearer, but then when I started wearing it and was seeing the time on my wrist, I was like, “h this is actually helpful to not be pulling my cell phone out to look at the time.”

Virginia

Yes. What must that be like?

Corinne

Sometimes at the gym, I will use the stopwatch thing.

Virginia

Sure.

Corinne

So it has a few elements that I like using that I could use my phone for, but it’s easier to just have on my wrist.

Also, I would say I’m very susceptible to supplements, which feels diet-y to me.

Virginia

This I did know about you, because you are an electrolyte girlie.

Corinne

I’m an electrolyte girlie. I like electrolytes. I like fiber. I’ve dabbled in creatine, which is another gym one.

Virginia

Well, I mean, power lifting,

Corinne

I mean going to the gym could be on here.

Virginia

Working out, period, I guess. But the idea that exercise entirely belongs to diet culture—I don’t think that’s true. And I think reclaiming exercise is something we’ve talked about plenty, but it is really these specific little habits that I think are so fascinating,

Corinne

Yeah And with the nutritional supplements I take —none of them are specifically tied to weight loss for me.

I will just say, like, I’m susceptible. What’s the one that’s on all the podcasts? Athletic Greens? I’ve never tried it, but I’ve looked at it and been like, would this change my life?

Virginia

This is a major revelation. I’ve also written about Athletic Greens.

Corinne

Really? You have none of that?

Virginia

No no, we just haven’t gotten to my list yet. I’m enjoying your list. But I do feel like the listeners are going to be clutching their pearls a little bit over these revelations!

Corinne

I feel it’s so tied to millennial culture, in some ways? Like Goop and Moon Juice.

Virginia

Wait. Have you ever bought a Moon Juice powder?

Corinne

I’ve used the the magnesium one. Because magnesium is an electrolyte.

Virginia

Of course it is.

Corinne

And well, also TikTok. Like for a while there was the the sleepy girl mocktail on TikTok which is tart cherry juice and and magnesium powder. It’s supposed to help you sleep. I did do that for a while.

Virginia

Did it help you sleep?

Corinne

I do think that magnesium helps me. But also it’s just kind of fun to have a little pre-bedtime treat. What’s the harm? You know?

Virginia

Yeah, yeah, I get that.

Okay, so my list. People know I’m a daily Diet Coke drinker, which is a reclaiming.

I’ve talked about the protein powder I put in the smoothie I make every morning for me and my kids. I started using that protein powder in my last diet, which was when I was on a detox for a story I was writing for Self Magazine in 2015. And then I kept the protein powder, but ditched the diet.

Corinne

That one we’ve talked about before because you’ve written about protein girlies or whatever, the growing popularity of people kind of tracking their protein and gotten a lot of pushback on that. Then I’m like, “Virginia, you eat protein powder.”

Virginia

Every day! Every day I have it for breakfast unless it’s like the weekend and I’m making eggs or something fancy. But yes. I am a morning protein girlie. I couldn’t tell you how many grams of protein is in it, but I do know I feel better and more functional if I have a significant amount of protein in the morning time. I have high protein needs then.

Another of mine that’s maybe a little more of a mental game I play is when it comes to my exercise routines. As you know, I mostly lift weights, I do resistance training videos, and I walk the dog, and I always have a goal that every week, four of those workouts will happen.

But if I know it’s a busy week and I’m not going to get in all four workouts, I think the math I do to decide which workouts I’m going to skip is often rooted in a diet-y place. For example, I’ll never give myself permission to cut the easiest workout.

I’m like, “Well, you have to do whatever’s feeling hardest right now in order to feel like you did enough this week.” This is definitely a diet culture holdover, because why not just do whatever workout makes sense for my schedule, or it sounds interesting, and trust that over the course of life, it’s going to be enough? But I’ll feel this pressure that whatever I’m enjoying the least, I still have to do. I don’t know, but I have a weird sort of punitive attitude towards it. Which I often recognize and talk myself out of, but, that’s the starting point. So that’s more of a mindset than a specific habit.

Corinne

I think when we look at these individual behaviors, sometimes we’re reclaiming legitimately useful things that the diet industry stole from us—

Virginia

Like Diet Coke!

Corinne

Like Diet Coke. So in these scenarios, reframing the intention can change a habit from diet-y to a form of genuine self-care.

Virginia

Like you using your FitBit for sleep, not for weight loss.

Corinne

I think sometimes the nutrition supplements feel that way, too. Like, “I’m just giving myself a little extra boost” and sometimes it feels like a treat, which I don’t know, is maybe not great, but.

Virginia

The mindset thing I was just talking about is rooted in a lingering belief that weight loss should be the goal of exercise that I haven’t let go. But the protein powder really doesn’t feel about weight loss to me at all. I just really like the taste, and I like how I feel when I have that for breakfast. So which of yours do you think is, like, “is there still some like, residual weight loss goal attached?” Versus “I just like this,” and it’s fun to try different supplements and see how I feel.

Corinne

I mean, I honestly feel like the the supplements don’t have that connection for me. And, I have also wondered sometimes: If I had more trust in doctors and the medical community, if I wouldn’t go this route. It does feel like, “I don’t have trust in my doctor, so I’ll maybe try this weird supplement.”

Virginia

That makes sense.

Corinne

It does sometimes feel like a like coping mechanism.

I have also wondered, why do I care? Why do I need my Fitbit to validate my feelings about how I slept? You know?

Virginia

Why do I need to get an A on sleep? Yeah, there’s something there. I get that.

Corinne

Maybe it’s tied to perfectionism, not to dieting directly, but optimization.

Virginia

I just remembered another one of mine! I’m always failing at hydration. I definitely have ambitions about how much water I should drink every day. And I know, as someone who’s very migraine prone, that I am a happier person when I drink a pretty extreme amount of water. Also as someone who has voice issues. And none of that has to do with weight loss—although there certainly is a whole hydration/weight loss thing that’s out there in diet culture. But it does end up feeling metric-y and judgy in a way that I don’t find helpful. I’m constantly aspiring to be someone who wakes up and drinks a bunch of lemon water, and I’m just never going to be that person. But I would like to be and I don’t know why exactly.

I think this is the thing that’s tricky to tease out. What is the intention? Is it, this was a diet thing that you’ve reclaimed and reframed for yourself? Is it really still rooted in weight loss? And if so, what does that mean?

So that’s what leads people to ask us: Can I pursue intentional weight loss and still be anti-diet? This came up a lot in that piece I wrote on the protein mom who was weighing her protein and teaching her daughter how to weigh her food. There were a lot of folks in the comments who felt like I was being anti-protein and wanted to defend her behavior as healthy because it was just part of how she was fueling her workouts. Or feeling like protein is getting like conflated with weight loss in these complicated ways.

So it’s it’s messy. It’s messy. But I think this is a big question. Can you pursue intentional weight loss and still be someone who has anti-diet values?

Corinne

When I hear that question, what I think in my head is: Can you pursue intentional weight loss and be anti-diet? Maybe not. But can you pursue intentional weight loss and still be for fat liberation? Yes.

So I think it also kind of comes down to, what is the line between those two things and where do your values lie?

Virginia

Oh, that’s really important. And I think, too, a lot of it has to do with your own amount of thin privilege and reasons for pursuing weight loss. Often fat folks are pursuing weight loss as a means to access health care or as a survival strategy, which is different from a very thin fitness influencer selling weight loss. Vastly different. One is somebody just doing what they need to do to survive their own life. And one is somebody profiting off weight loss and selling other people to do it.

Corinne

Yeah, and that kind of came up on the protein girlies thing, too, where some people were, like, “I’m measuring the amount of protein I’m eating to make sure I’m getting enough,” versus I’m weighing my food or tracking calories to make sure I don’t eat too much. And I think some of that comes down to your own brain. Is that something that you can do or not?

Virginia

Yeah. I mean, the way you were like, I can use a Fitbit and ignore the step count, I’m like, wow, what’s it like to have a brain like that, because I know that my brain would be like, well, how many steps have we done by lunch?

Corinne

Sometimes at the end of the day, I do look at it and I’m like, wow, I only took 3000 steps today. But I don’t find myself spiraling about it. And I think also it’s the thing where I can put it down. Like I will take it off and just kind of forget about it.

Virginia

That sounds like a very healthy, very balanced relationship with your Fitbit, as opposed to how I know I would be.

So I feel like we can sort this into a couple of categories.

Are you doing something that has a diet-y origin story and you’ve changed the meaning of it? Are you doing something that has a deity origin story, and you can do it without being triggered, like Corinne can use a Fitbit and Virginia cannot.

Or are you doing something that you know triggers you to more of a weight loss fixated place? And that’s not what you want. And maybe this isn’t really serving you, but you’re doing it, so that’s something to look at.

And then this third thing of like, Can you do it and still stand up for fat liberation? I think the answer is yes, and I want people to have concrete ideas about how they’re doing that.

Corinne

I think also sometimes where it feels tricky is people hold on to these behaviors and don’t want to acknowledge the inherent anti-fatness in it. I think about that with the Fitbit. Even if I can use it in a way that’s okay for me, is step tracking inherently anti-fat? I don’t know. I actually don’t really know.

Virginia

I mean, it did definitely get popular as a weight loss strategy and I would say intentional weight loss is inherently anti-fat. But it is not it’s only purpose.

And I think what I look for is, are you able to very clearly name that?

Corinne

Yes, I completely agree.

Virginia

If you’re not able to say, yeah, it’s complicated, I can see that this is problematic, and I’m doing it for this reason. If you want to just sort of pretend it doesn’t have those connotations that tells me that you are not really doing that work.

Corinne

Yeah. I think as a fat person, it feels better to hear someone acknowledge the complexity of this stuff.

Virginia

We’ve seen this a lot with the Ozempic conversation. Folks who are consciously choosing intentional weight loss for their own personal reasons often then feel shut out of fat liberation more broadly, and even of Burnt Toast specifically. Often the unsubscribe notes we get say something like, “I’m pursuing weight loss and I can’t be here anymore.”

And that always makes me feel a little sad, because I don’t think that’s my goal. I don’t think that’s the goal of this community. I don’t want you to come and tell us the specifics of your diet and trigger somebody for whom that’s going to be harmful information. But I don’t want anyone to feel like their personal choices are going to be judged and policed here.

Corinne

Ultimately, it would be nice to live in a world where weight gain and weight loss are neutral, you know?

I think the Ozempic thing is a good comparison here because ultimately Ozempic is just a prescription medication. You could be taking it for weight loss, you could be taking it for other reasons. But it has come to signify so heavily pursuing intentional weight loss that now people who might want to take it for diabetes or something, don’t want to take it because it’s signifying this other thing.

Virginia

God, it’s so complicated. It’s so complicated. If the core of fat liberation is body autonomy, then we have to keep making space for “everybody gets to make their own choices for their bodies.” But we also have a responsibility to each other and in how we talk about those choices. And we have a responsibility to name the complexities of the choices.

Corinne

And if we want body autonomy for ourselves, we have to allow other people to also have that freedom.

Virginia

January is a hard month. If you’re thinking about some diet-y things, we’re not pushing you out of the club. You don’t have to turn in your toast merch that we’ve never made. It gets messy fast.

Corinne

Maybe we could talk a little bit about how if you are pursuing intentional weight loss, or doing things that could be considered diet-y, how can you keep showing up for body liberation or body autonomy?

Virginia

Yes, I want to talk about that for sure. I specifically want to talk about that if you are a straight sized person.

And I want to say, don’t talk about what you’re doing. We don’t want to hear it.

There have been a handful of instances of straight sized people in my life talking about their diet choices just recently. And every time I think whatever this choice means for you, however you’ve decided it’s necessary you want to fit into your old jeans, whatever that is, great. You are throwing every fat person around you under the bus by deciding that you, as a thin person, should talk about your need to be thinner. That is a fuck you to every fat person.

So that’s an easy one. If you’re thin and you want to be thinner, don’t talk about it. Do it if you have to do it, but don’t tell us. We don’t want to know. Sorry, I know I’m being harsh, but I do feel strongly about that.

Corinne

I’m thinking specifically about a plus size influencer person I would see on Tiktok, who I didn’t see for a while, and then suddenly I saw a video of her being like, yes, I’ve been on GLP1s or whatever. And she went on this long monologue about how she had completely divested from fatphobia for everyone else, but not herself. And I was just like, I don’t buy this.

Virginia

No. When I’m saying “be willing to name the complexities,” I don’t mean rationalize your choice to us. I mean, be willing to own that you’re doing something that’s fundamentally anti-fat but feels necessary to you. Be willing to own that disconnect. And don’t look to fatter people to give you approval and say it’s okay. That that is asking labor of people that they don’t owe you while you are again, throwing them under the bus.

Corinne

The other side of that coin is like, you can still keep showing up for people.

Virginia

Donate to NAAFA, donate to ASDAH. Name anti-fatness when you see it in a doctor’s office, a workplace, a school, among your friends.

Corinne

Treat fat people like people.

Virginia

Consider how size inclusive your furniture is. There are lots of things you can do to be showing up as an ally. And none of it has to do with us policing your own choices.

Corinne

You can count your protein grams and still be nice to fat people.

Virginia

And one of the nice things you can do is not talk about counting your protein grams.

Corinne

One of the nice things you can do is not be boring.

Virginia

Please talk about anything else. So much more interesting.

Yeah, all right. Well, that feels like a good place to leave that. I’m really excited to hear what folks think. I am hoping we have a rich and nuanced conversation in the comments. Not just people getting mad, but you can get mad, too. It’s fine. We have space for that.

Virginia

All right, should we talk about our personal project experiment that we’re both terrified to do?

Corinne

Yes.

Virginia

Okay, so it is January. There’s a lot of resolution energy. This is a kind of resolution adjacent experiment. Corinne and I have been talking for a few months now about how we don’t want to support Amazon. It’s an evil company. We’re going to talk about that. And I think especially since the election, a lot of folks feel like divesting from Amazon is something they want to do.

For me personally, in the past year, we’ve started doing a lot more shopping content, affiliate links, things like that, and I got a lot more feedback about my consumer habits as a result, from readers, which was welcome and generally kind. Not always kind, but mostly kind. And something that I struggle with is shopping too much, and something I often think about trying to look at. And if I’m going to look at my consumer habits, I know my dependency on Amazon is a big piece of it. So that’s some personal motivation for me.

What about you?

Corinne

As you said, this has been coming up a lot since the election. I’ve been taking a look at where I’m actually spending dollars and feeling like, am I really saving myself that much time by ordering light bulbs on Amazon? Or could I just go to my local hardware store?

Virginia

You wrote some really good pieces after the election thinking about shopping in general, which we’ll link to.

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It’s just been kind of a trigger point of, like, wow, capitalism brought us here. What are we doing about that?

Corinne

Yeah, I think also, climate anxiety. It’s become so easy to rely on Amazon for those little household things. And is there a different way?

Virginia

I really like

Laura Fenton

who writes

LIVING SMALL

. She did a post towards the end of last yearlisting everything she’d bought in the year, and it was like, 13 things. And I was just like, damn. I can buy 13 things in a week. In a day! That’s one Amazon order!

I think Laura lives a lifestyle I’m never going to live. She’s great, but she and I have some different priorities. I’m never going to be a minimalist. I don’t want to be a minimalist. That’s not for me. But on a scale of Laura to Kim Kardashian, I would prefer to be closer to the underconsuming side than to the Kardashian side of things.

Corinne

Shall we quickly run through some of the reasons we came up with for divesting from Amazon?

Virginia

I think people know this, but maybe you haven’t heard it in a while. And maybe you don’t know it, and maybe you’re like, why are you guys so mad about Amazon? So yeah, let’s do a highlight reel.

Corinne

First of all, the packaging. There’s so much packaging.

Virginia

So much waste. For me, there’s also waste because I buy a lot of shit I end up getting rid of. You buy a lot of things you’re not going to keep forever on Amazon. Of course, you want to think you donate it to people who can use it, but we know a lot of it’s ending up in landfills.

Corinne

Also, Amazon is not a great place to work.

Virginia

No, no. Lots of union busting. I think they claim $15 an hour starting pay, but don’t always deliver on it. Injuries. Just a lot of really terrible workplace stuff.

Corinne

Amazon also supports ICE and separating immigrant families. Also tax avoidance.

Virginia

Great. Feeling so good about things.

Corinne

Jeff Bezos is not paying taxes.

Virginia

Well, you know, I mean, times are tough for Jeff Bezos. He only has what? Like 10% of the Earth’s money? I don’t know. He’s only tripled his net worth in the time we’ve been recording this episode basically.

Corinne

He’s also donating a million dollars to Trump’s inauguration.

Virginia

Yeah, they have a weird history. They haven’t always gotten along, but clearly at the moment, Bezos is Team Trump all the way. Because he thinks Trump will reduce regulations, which is just not what we need—for Amazon to have fewer regulations.

Amazon has also been just wildly destructive for the book publishing industry for a really long time. Authors make lower royalty rates from Amazon versus bookstores. They do crazy price control, driving down prices in ways that make it really impossible for independent bookstores to compete. Basically everybody else in the book industry hurts while Amazon gets richer and richer.

Now, some folks will say for self-published authors, Amazon has been a boon because you can often self-publish on Amazon more easily than you can other places. But I think even there, we’re seeing that it’s not longterm sustainable or great for authors. There’s also a lot of piracy. There are a lot of fake versions of your book going up all the time. It’s a train wreck.

The one place I have 100 percent divested from Amazon on is buying books. I stopped buying books from Amazon about five years ago. I mostly buy them from Split Rock, my local independent bookstore. Or whenever I travel and go to another bookstore, I always buy a book.

And that one was pretty easy for me. Part of why I want to do this experiment is for a long time I’ve been like, well, I don’t buy books from Amazon. And I do buy a lot of books, so that’s not nothing. But now I’m like, Okay, I could probably do more.

But if you are looking for a starting place, giving up Amazon for books is a big one.

Corinne

I, on the other hand, have a Kindle and use Audible! So I don’t know what I’m going to do.

Virginia

I mean, that’s the hard thing. I was actually just talking about this with Heidi Bender, who owns Split Rock Books. I was getting Amazon intel from her, and we were saying, it just shows how insidious this is, that you can’t take your Kindle and buy books from other places. You can only use a Kindle to buy from Amazon. Because there is Kobo, which is an alternative and they support independent bookstores. Bookshop.org is supposed to be working on their own ebooks. They’re not out as of this recording, but it’s in the works. But what device are you going to read them on is the big question, because Amazon is not going to let you put that on your Kindle. So that is a hard piece.

You can do the Kobo app or another e-reader app on your iPad. Not that Apple is a great company, but we’re focusing on one at a time here, guys. Harm reduction! So you could read on a different tablet, if you have one for ebooks.

For audiobooks, there is a good solution, which is Libro FM is a really great independent bookstore supporting audiobook site. I love them. They make it really easy to support, you pick the bookstore and they get a cut. And you can use the Libro app on any smartphone or tablet. So, that was really easy to sort out the audiobook piece, but the ebooks thing is a little trickier.

Corinne

That’s cool. I think I will just only use Libby.

Virginia

Yeah, that’s a good solution for now at least. Use the Libby app on your Kindle. That’s how you know they have the technology, because you can get your Kindle to work with libraries. So why can’t you buy from different ebook sites?

Corinne

You know why! Jeff Bezos needs more money

Okay, what do you actually buy from Amazon?

Virginia

Corinne…

Corinne

We know it’s not books.

Virginia

It’s everything else.

Okay, so my current Amazon Prime account I’ve actually only had for three months, because prior to that I had one shared with my ex, and then we finally divorced our Amazon Prime. So in the last three months, I have placed 24 orders with Amazon.

Corinne

Two a week.

Virginia

That’s not great.

Corinne

Could be worse? I’m afraid to look honestly. What if mine is worse than yours? I share an Amazon with my sister, so I’m not going to be able to see which ones are just mine.

But we have 81 orders. That’s for two households. But two households? That is still 40 each.

I will say, my sister just had a baby.

Virginia

Your sister just had a baby. It’s the holidays. We’re recording this on December 17, so I am in the thick of Christmas shopping. And then it’s getting close, so we’re in the panic stage. It’s not great though. It’s not great! We are laying ourselves bare. Judge us all you want.

Corinne

Give me your last five orders.

Virginia

Dry shampoo.

Also, travel size dry shampoo.

Something that’s a Christmas gift that I’m not sure whether I’m keeping, so I’m not going to say it.

Protein powder. This is going to be a tough one. My protein powder is on a Subscribe and Save.

A life size cut out of Nicolas Cage, which is a gift for my nephew. That one I think I stand by, seems great.

A Christmas tree collar. I suddenly decided I didn’t want to look at the base of my Christmas tree and ordered a wicker collar for it. That one we can all judge.

Stocking stuffer, stocking stuffer, stocking stuffer.

Easy lunch boxes, these containers that we use for my kids’ lunch boxes.

A new kitchen knife I arguably did not need at all.

Liners for my air fryer and more stocking stuffers.

That gets us back to December 6. Oh and, a shirt that my child needed for a holiday chorus concert, that we needed to acquire very quickly, which is the other place Amazon Prime comes in.

What about you?

Corinne

Knitting needles

Hangers

Light bulbs—which, it’s a specific light bulb in a dimmable variety, which I did try to find locally and could not.

Virginia

I mean, I hear you. I have to order reptile light bulbs. Well, now I get them from Chewy, but from Amazon.

Corinne

A heated mattress pad for my guest room because my mom was coming to visit.

A touch lamp also for my guest room because my mom was coming to visit.

Shout color catcher dye trapping sheets.

Virginia

Oh, do those work?

Corinne

Yeah, they do.

Virginia

Good to know.

Corinne

I also Amazon ordered two cookbooks to my sister. Sorry to Amy Palanjian and

Julia Turshen

.

Virginia

Well, you bought their cookbooks.

Corinne

Yeah, but from Amazon.

Virginia

Well, that’s alright, their books are selling pretty well.

So it’s a lot of, like, stress shopping. It’s a lot of like, I need to solve this problem quickly.

Corinne

Mine is definitely a lot of last minute, like let me just order this thing so I don’t have to deal with going to the store.

Virginia

I mean, what I have to say is, arguably, I didn’t need to buy a lot of it. I don’t really understand why I bought that knife? Can’t remember why I decided I needed a new knife? The Christmas tree collar also was a poor purchase.

But otherwise, it was just kind of the stuff that we need to run our lives. It wasn’t like, luxury items. Do you know what I mean? It’s not even stuff that brings me joy.

Corinne

Yeah, for me it feels like checking it off a list. Instead of having a note in my phone that’s like, go to target, get this, this, and this, I just do it immediately and then it’s off my plate.

Virginia

You can just, right as you’re thinking of it, press buy. So on the one hand, I don’t think that I will feel sadder not making these purchases, because they aren’t even things that make me super happy. But I do feel like there’s a convenience thing that we’re going to give up.

Corinne

I mean, we’re talking about doing this for 30 days. Like, I think I could live without most of the stuff for 30 days. But I’m also like, then is there gonna be a backfire, where after 30 days, we’re going nuts?

Virginia

I do think we have to delete the apps on our phones so we’re not just secretly adding to cart all month.

Corinne

Okay.

Virginia

Or is that too stringent?

Corinne

I’m fine with that.

Virginia

I think we probably do need to do it.

Corinne

Also, in this 30 days falls my birthday.

Virginia

Okay? Do you purchase a lot from Amazon for your birthday? A lot of light bulbs for your birthday?

Corinne

What if I need last minute birthday candles or tinsel decorations or something?

Virginia

I mean, I want you to have an amazing birthday, but I feel like there’s a work around.

Corinne

I just want everyone to acknowledge that this may be harder for me.

Virginia

Corinne is sacrificing by doing this in her birthday month, of all times. You are the hero, for sure. I see that.

I am someone who works from home, and I have kids, so my ability to like leave my house and run errands often feels limited. Like, I don’t want to drag a kid along on an errand they don’t want to go on. I have work I’m trying to get done, so I don’t want to go when the kids are at school. So if I have to do more in person shopping, this is going to be challenging for me. I’m very delivery-dependent.

What I have been doing, to try to do a little less Amazoning, is I always check Target first. I can get anything shipped from Target, and their shipping times are honestly pretty close to Amazon’s a lot of the time. But is Target better? Is it worth doing that this month, just to cut the cord with Amazon? But it feels like a crutch. So I don’t know that it’s better.

Corinne

I don’t know either.

Virginia

They are also not great to their employees. They’re busting unions. But I think for someone like me, I don’t know that I can go all the way there. I think I need Target as a as a stepping stone.

Corinne

I mean, I think the good thing about this is we get to make up the rules, right?

Virginia

We are! We are making the rules.

Corinne

Though sometimes when I think about stuff like this, I’m like, is this a diet?

Virginia

No, it’s a very fair question. It’s a very fair question. Anytime you’re consciously trying to change behavior with a goal in mind it can verge on diet-y territory.

Especially, I do often think with these no buy months or any of these experiments, like individual consumer habits are not what is going to change the stranglehold these corporations have on us. It needs to be wholesale reform, but we’re also not going to get that. So it feels like something we can do.

Corinne

However, we do have how many people reading Burnt Toast? Can we get all of them on board with us?

Virginia

Well, there are 63,000 of them, but they don’t all pay for Extra Butter. But if more of them would, then yes. The thousands of you that are here listening to this, we would love you to join us. That would be really fun. And we want to hear your strategies!

One thing that might be fun, since we’re doing this for 30 days, is I’ll post some threads in chat where anyone who’s doing it can check in and commiserate, and maybe it’ll be me being like, “Guys, seriously, where do I get a stapler” or whatever I need last minute. We can all help each other solve some of these problems.

Corinne

Yeah, that sounds good. So just to summarize, our commitment is no Amazon for 30 days.

Virginia

Yes, and we’re deleting the apps on our phones.

Corinne

Okay, but we are doing Target.

Virginia

I think for me personally, the no Amazon feels hard enough. I don’t want to put other rules around it. If you want to step it up and only buy secondhand or something, I really admire that about you.

Corinne

I think right now I’m just going to stick to no Amazon, but we’ll see.

Virginia

I mean, it is your birthday month. So yeah, if this is super easy, what if we breeze through it? Then maybe next month we can be like, oh, we should start looking at something else. It’s not going to be Instacart, I’ll tell you that. Not ready. Not there in my healing process, thank you very much.

Corinne

Totally.

Virginia

Alright. I’m excited. I’m nervous, but I’m excited.

Corinne

And we’re going to revisit this next month!

Virginia

Yeah, we’ll do an update in February, for sure.

Corinne

Shall we do Butter?

Virginia

Let’s do Butter. Nothing will be from Amazon. We promise!

Corinne

My Butter is from Amazon.

Virginia

Wait, really, is it?

Corinne

Yes.

Virginia

Oh my God. Okay. It’s a last hurrah.

Corinne

I already bought it.

Virginia

We’re divesting from Amazon. But here is an Amazon link. Oh, my God, that’s really funny.

Corinne

You don’t have to get it at Amazon.

I want to recommend a heated mattress pad. Amazon is not the only place that sells them. However, I just think they are the best. I think they are far superior to a heated blanket.

Virginia

Interesting.

Corinne

And I think that everyone who lives somewhere cold needs one.

Virginia

Is it like having a heating pad but it’s your whole body? Because I have a heating pad that I use when I have cramps or something.

Corinne

I mean, it’s like a heating pad, but the heating pad is your whole bed. Instead of climbing into a cold bed at night, you’re climbing into a lasagna, as one of my friends said. A warm and cheesy lasagna.

Virginia

A warm and cheesy lasagna bed,

Corinne

I don’t know, it just feels like it heats you faster and better than a heating pad or a blanket.

Virginia

I want to get these for my kids beds, because their bedrooms are really chilly.

Corinne

I’ll often turn it on and then turn it off before I get to bed. I don’t even like to have it on all night, because it’s it’s really warm. Or if you have a king size bed it has two separate sides, so you can have one side on and one side off, and roll back and forth all night.

Virginia

Oh, I like that. Or if you sleep with someone, they could choose their own temperature.

Corinne

Exactly. That is how it’s intended, but could never be me.

Virginia

We will just be rolling back and forth. I could starfish, and half my starfish is warm, and half is cold.

Corinne

Exactly, exactly.

Virginia

Okay. I’m intrigued. My other question is, what about my perimenopause night sweats? But I think you solved that by turning it off before you get into bed.

Corinne

Yeah, I don’t leave it on all night, because then I do wake up sweating.

Virginia

Well, on a related note, my Butter, which I did not purchase from Amazon, although they are sold on there, is my weighted blanket, which I’m obsessed with right now. Now that it is cold. I have one of the Bearaby ones, which was like an Instagram darling. It’s like a really pretty cable knit kind of blanket. It was a Christmas present a few years ago, during the pandemic. So it’s been going strong for four years, and I love it so much. And it is like being buried alive when you’re under it in bed, but in a cozy way.

Corinne

Wow. So yours covers the whole bed?

Virginia

It covers all of me. It does not cover the whole bed. It says it’s a queen size okay, but I sleep in a king size bed. But it’s also even when I had it on a queen bed, it didn’t drape over the sides. It is like maybe the dimensions of the mattress.

But it covers me completely. And what I like about it is, I move around a lot less when I’m sleeping, which I think means I sleep a lot more deeply.

Corinne

You would need a Fitbit to tell you.

Virginia

If only I had some device tracking that and grading it for me.

Corinne

But does this make it harder to get out of bed?

Virginia

Everything makes it hard to get out of bed. It’s January. It’s dark outside. Nobody wants to get out of bed. You might as well love bed while you’re in it, because then you spend all day just wanting to go back.

Corinne

Fair.

Virginia

It’s not a new concept. I feel like weighted blankets have been around for a minute, but I’m just if you’ve been on the fence, this is, this is the month to do it. This is the time. We’ve got a Trump inauguration coming. Some of us are trying not to shop on Amazon. We need our comfort.

Corinne

So heavy that you can’t reach for your phone and click Add to Cart.

Virginia

This is my entire strategy. I’m just going to be pinned under my blanket.

Well, this was really good, and I’m excited to see how this next 30 days goes for us.

Corinne

Me too.

The Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith (follow me on Instagram) and Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus, and Big Undies—subscribe for 20% off!

The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe.

Our theme music is by Farideh.

Tommy Harron is our audio engineer.

Thanks for listening and for supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism!

You’re listening to Burnt Toast!

We are Virginia Sole-Smith and Corinne Fay, and we’re dropping in today with your Burnt Toast Podcast Year In Review.

Don’t forget! Burnt Toast subscriptions are 20% off right now — but that deal ends tomorrow night. Don’t miss it!And if you haven’t donated to our NAAFA fundraiser yet, we could really use your help funding fat.

You can always listen to our episodes right here in your email, where you’ll also receive full transcripts (edited and condensed for clarity). But please also follow us in Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, and/or Pocket Casts!

The Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith (follow me on Instagram) and Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus, and Big Undies—subscribe for 20% off!

The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe.

Our theme music is by Farideh.

Tommy Harron is our audio engineer.

Thanks for listening and for supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism!

Thank you for subscribing. Leave a comment or share this episode.

---

Virginia

It has been a really great year for the podcast, wouldn’t you agree, Corinne?

Corinne

I would agree.

Virginia

Yes. I don’t know that we celebrated this properly at the time, but a few months ago, we actually passed 1 million downloads this year, which is wild to me.

Corinne

Honestly, I can’t think about that too hard.

Virginia

Then I will not tell you that we are now at 1.32 million, as of this recording.

Corinne

My gosh! It’s wild.

Virginia

I know it’s really cool. I feel super proud of the podcast. I love making it with you.

Corinne

So we are going to take this opportunity to chat about listeners’ five favorite episodes of the year—plus the least popular episode!

Virginia

The poor, unloved episode.

Before we dive in, I feel like I need to own up that this is a very imperfect science I used to rank the episodes. Since we do a mix of paywalled and unpaywalled episodes, I can’t just go by total download numbers. That’s because the paywalled episodes—Corinne, this will be reassuring to you, as someone who’s primarily on paywalled episodes—have lower number of downloads on these. So the million downloads is not all you.

Corinne

Yeah. And it’s a million downloads across all episodes, right?

Virginia

Yes. This is episode 174 so I think that number, the 1.3 million, is like, current to 170 or something like that.

But I did look at which episodes were downloaded the most for the year, and then I also looked at which episodes the paywall was most effective—meaning that you all paid to listen. Because that tells us a lot about is this episode striking a nerve so much that you’re like, “yes, I will pay $7 or for Extra Butter folks, $99 to listen to this episode.” So I think that’s pretty indicative of its popularity.

Corinne

It’s always fun to see what people are excited about. And where we sometimes fail with writing headlines.

Virginia

We work so hard on the headlines, and sometimes I think we’ve really nailed it and then we have not at all.

I will also say I’m exempting from the data last week’s episode, as of this recording. The Tyranny of the Millennial Camisole episode came out last week. It’s not doing great, but it’s only had a few days and I don’t feel it’s fair to judge it yet! But you all should go listen to it, because it’s such a good episode.

I feel that people are missing out by not hearing us discuss camisoles and horizontal stripes and whatever else we talked about in that episode.

The Burnt Toast Podcast

Virginia Sole-Smith and Corinne Fay

·

December 5, 2024

Why everything you learned about "dressing for your belly" is trash.

Read full story

Corinne

It’s about a lot more than just camisoles! Although camisoles were a big part.

Virginia

They were and I think maybe in my headline writing, I over-emphasized that. I apologize, but if you’ve ever worn Spanx, that episode is for you.

Okay, here we go. We are starting with the least popular episode. This is the one that has the fewest downloads and had the fewest people paying to listen.

The Burnt Toast Podcast

Virginia Sole-Smith and Corinne Fay

·

July 25, 2024

You’re listening to Burnt Toast!

Read full story

Do you remember this episode?

Virginia

I mean, I’ll admit I had to open it up and be like, which episode was this?

Corinne

Oh, interesting. It’s from July of this year.

Virginia

Do we think everyone was just on summer vacation?

Corinne

It’s definitely possible.

Virginia

July is, historically, usually a pretty low month overall for newsletters and podcasts in general, I think because of summer travel schedules.

Corinne

But I will say—the question that the headline is referring to, the fatphobic roller coaster question, was memorable for me.

Virginia

Yeah, no, absolutely. It was from a woman who was going to amusement parks and feeling really sad she couldn’t ride on roller coasters.

Corinne

It was a good question.

Virginia

I think our answer was also pretty good. Folks can click through and listen to that. I think maybe the headline is a little niche? If you haven’t currently struggled with roller coasters or socks, that might be why it didn’t speak to you.

But I also want to say: If dismantling anti-fatness is important to you, these kind of mundane issues are the work. It’s not always the sexy stuff. Sometimes it is totally roller coasters and socks. Also Corinne on socks is just a great rant, guys.

Corinne

Oh, my God.

Virginia

That’s also worth listening to!

Corinne

Well, yeah, I also think if you like the episodes where there are deeper questions and we’re thinking about the nuance of fatphobia and what do we give up when we decide to stop dieting. I think this is good one, and you might want to listen if you missed it.

Virginia

Yeah, agreed, agreed. And we’re not judging you, but a little bit we are, that you blew past some of our finest work.

Okay, let’s now go through what you guys did like, and we’ll go from least to most, right?

Corinne

We’re going from least most popular to most most popular.

So the Number 5 Most Popular Episode is: Did Virginia get divorced over butter?

The Burnt Toast Podcast

Corinne Fay and Virginia Sole-Smith

·

June 13, 2024

Welcome to Indulgence Gospel After Dark!

Read full story

Corinne

How do you feel about your divorce being one of the most popular episodes?

Virginia

I feel zero surprise about it, and I am not going to answer that question here. People can listen to the episode and find out, what I think about it.

Corinne

It’s another good episode. What else did we talk about in that episode?

Virginia

We talked also a lot about how the newsletter works.

Corinne

The making of the sausage, how the sausage is made.

Virginia

We did talk about the weirdness of the Internet having a parasocial relationship with one’s personal life, so if that’s an interesting topic, it’s pretty juicy.

And people have told us they really like the process stories. People are interested in how we make the podcast and the newsletter. I think I’m always interested in that for other people.

Leave a comment

4. Can I want to lose weight for a good reason?

The Burnt Toast Podcast

Corinne Fay and Virginia Sole-Smith

·

March 21, 2024

You’re listening to Burnt Toast!

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Corinne

This is another, like, mail baggy episode. And I do think that question is kind of perennially interesting.

Virginia

It’s definitely another nuanced and chewy question, which we really love to do. But there are some other lighter questions in that episode: Is it okay to feed your children paleo waffles? My thoughts on single mom travel. Are there any comfortable jeans?

Corinne

The third most popular episode—which I’m actually a tiny bit surprised about. I thought, honestly, it would be higher—was:

3. When Fat Influencers Get Thinner.

The Burnt Toast Podcast

Corinne Fay and Virginia Sole-Smith

·

February 8, 2024

Welcome to Indulgence Gospel After Dark!

Read full story

Virginia

Oh yeah, this was a juicy one.

Corinne

This is one where we talked about fat influencers losing weight because of Ozempic.

Virginia

I wonder if it would have been even higher if we had name-checked somebody in the headline.

Corinne

Maybe?

Virginia

That’s something—as we’ll see when we get to number one—that is sometimes effective. But it’s tricky. I think one thing we’ve realized about the podcast is that y’all really like us doing criticism and analysis of Internet culture as it intersects with diet culture and anti-fatness. So there are quite a few influencer episodes that have done well. But because Internet culture is as vast as it is, often these people are kind of niche. If you’re not already following plus size influencers, or you’re not already following kid food influencers or whatever, you might not know the specific players.

So I think that’s why we didn’t include the names. Because we were like, will everyone know these people?

Corinne

And also this episode wasn’t just about one person, it was about a wider cultural phenomenon.

Virginia

Yes. It was the trend of influencers using Ozempic or Wegovy to lose weight, and suddenly, kind of radically changing the way they talk about weight and body acceptance and health journeys.

Corinne

This is one of the episodes I was most stressed about recording, just because it feels so hard to get right. I remember when it came out, I was just like, oh, I kind of hope no one listens.

Virginia

Unfortunately, many people listened. Thousands of people listened, Corinne.

But what I always want to push back on is that the scolding we always get is “you’re tearing down other women,” or “you’re being mean girls.” And I think that is actually a very anti-feminist understanding of this work. We have to hold other women accountable when they are not being allies to other women and otherwise marginalized folks.

And specifically, this episode—and I think pretty much all our influencer episodes—focus on white ladies with a lot of privilege who are not using that privilege responsibly. That criticism is really important right now. And it’s not being a mean girl, it’s being a cultural critic and someone who analyzes diet culture and is able to identify it. And sometimes women create diet culture. So we have to say that.

But I get why you were nervous about it. People are going to be meaner to me than to you, though, if it helps. You’re the more likable one!

Corinne

Oh, my God. I don’t actually remember there being a lot of pushback after that episode came out. But maybe you got all of it.

Virginia

I don’t either but I also don’t go on Reddit very often.

Corinne

Oh, yeah, no, me neither. At least not for that.

Virginia

That’s a self-care measure for us. We will not be doing that, and you don’t need to send us anything you find there!

Okay, the next two are kind of like one and two. You can make arguments for which is one and which is two. But what I’m calling number 2 was our far and away most downloaded episode of the year:

2. Is “Mom Rage” Actually “Marriage Rage?”

The Burnt Toast Podcast

Virginia Sole-Smith and lyz

·

February 29, 2024

You’re listening to Burnt Toast!

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This was my interview with Lyz Lenz about her new book, This American Ex-Wife. It has almost 28,000 downloads, which is easily 10,000 downloads more than a free episode usually gets. So it was off to the races.

Corinne

Wow. It was a great episode.

Virginia

It was a great episode! I mean, it definitely also touched a nerve. I think the comment section got kind of spicy. Anytime we do divorce and marriage topics, we hear from people who really like their marriages and feel personally attacked.

Corinne

Totally makes sense.

Virginia

And I’m not saying they need to get divorced, but they sometimes seem to think that’s what we’re saying? But

lyz

is great, and it is a really fantastic conversation.

And it’s interesting too, because, you know, I first had Lyz on the podcast to talk about diet culture and divorce well before my own divorce. And then she came back, and we were two divorced ladies together. It was kind of a fun little evolution.

Corinne

I love that. And the number one most popular episode of the year is…

1. The Curious Evolution of Emily Oster

The Burnt Toast Podcast

Virginia Sole-Smith and Corinne Fay

·

November 14, 2024

Welcome to Indulgence Gospel After Dark! This month we’re talking about Emily Oster—and her evolving views on kids, weight and health.

Read full story

Virginia

Drumroll for that. This one really blew up. The free preview for this has also over 25,000 downloads. The full paywalled episode is less, but it did convert a ton of people who wanted to hear the whole thing. And that is again, above average numbers for us.

Corinne

Yeah, that’s also really interesting, because that one is from just last month. Whereas the last two were from February.

Virginia

Yes. I mean, usually the older an episode is, the more downloads it has, because new people discovering the podcast often go back and download old episodes. But Emily Oster was an immediate hit.

And despite everything I said about feeling very strongly that we are not being mean girls, and we are culture critics, and this is valid work— this was the one I was the most nervous about.

Corinne

Well, and you know her.

Virginia

I have a lot of respect for Emily. But there have been some weird right turns taken, and I felt it was important to talk about it. So that is all in that episode.

Corinne

I’m kind of surprised that the Kids Eat In Color episode isn’t on here.

The Ballerina Farm of Kid Food Instagram

Corinne Fay and Virginia Sole-Smith

·

March 7, 2024

Read full story

Virginia

If we were only going to do top 5 paywalled episodes, it would have been number five.

Corinne

Oh, gotcha.

Virginia

That is another good one. But since I wanted to make sure to include at least one of the free ones as well, I did some very scientific number crunching… in the 10 minutes before we recorded this episode.

Corinne

Are there any episodes you’re surprised aren’t in the top five?

Virginia

I don’t think so. I mean, I’ve been tracking all the way along that this influencer analysis thing was really taking off. And two divorce things on this list doesn’t surprise me at all, because that’s been a huge driver of engagement.

I’m definitely sad for fatphobic roller coasters being the least popular episode. That’s where I think the heart of this work is. And then the more gossipy topics like public figures and divorce—that’s what gets the clicks and the downloads. So the cynical journalist in me is like, well, of course, But we’re not going to stop doing the fat phobic roller coaster episodes.

Corinne

Yeah, I think they’re super important.

Virginia

We really need them. So I encourage everyone: If you love an Emily Oster type episode, please go listen to that one too. Because it’s all part of the work.

Corinne

It’s really fun to answer listener questions too.

Virginia

Yes. I guess the less cynical part of me understands, though—because I think the mailbag question episodes are really fun but they are more random. So if you’re a newer listener, they feel a little inside baseball. It’s you and me hanging out and chatting, and it feels like we’re having a conversation with all the Burnt Toasties, which I love. But I can get why they’re harder to break into. So that’s something we might think about? How to make them more accessible?

Corinne

I think it’s also harder to write a hooky headline for those episodes. If it’s five different topics, then what do you put up top that will get people to listen?

Virginia

That is always a little bit of an experiment. How to frame it exactly? Maybe we have to make sure to include an influencer question in those, just to get it in the headline. I’m sorry it’s clickbait, but it’s what you all respond to!

Corinne

Let’s do the the last butter of 2024! No pressure.

Virginia

That does feel like pressure, right? What do you have?

Corinne

Okay, well, I feel mine is like just a little anti-climactic, because I think I feel like everyone’s already gonna know about this. But I just read the book James by Percival Everett. It really is as good as everyone is saying. I really enjoyed it. I plowed right through it.

I mean, as you probably know, it’s a retelling of Huck Finn. So it just has that adventure story and a plot that just kind of carries you right along. But it’s just a good read. So I definitely recommend that if people haven’t read it. I listened to the audiobook, which I thought was really good.

Virginia

Oh, nice. I’m excited to know that. I tried to make my book club read it, and they shot it down. We did read Colored Television by Danzy Senna who happens to be his wife. It also came out this year. And I did have a moment of like, I’m glad we read that one, because James is the one that really blew up. And Colored Television is also excellent.

And it’s probably complicated to be two bestselling authors in a marriage, both releasing big books in the same year! I don’t know. It seems that seems like something! I would love to know more about how that works. But I do want to read James too.

Corinne

I don’t know why your book group shot it down, but my mom was telling me about it, and I was also resisting it, and then it just like, popped up on Libby, and I was like, Oh, fine. And then I I did really like it.

Virginia

Well, I have a knee-jerk reaction to not wanting to read books by and about men, which is something I can look at. I suppose. And I think the whole Huckleberry Finn retelling makes it feel like a school book versus a fun read.

Corinne

Yeah, I could see that. I mean, it is like, about slavery…

Virginia

It’s not an uplifting topic, but it does sound like a really incredible book.

Corinne

All right, what’s your Butter?

Virginia

I’m also going to do a culture rec, because something else we learned this year is that the culture-based Butters are the ones we stand by, versus when I tell you about something I bought at Target. So I’m not recommending anything from Target.

I’m just going to do a Butter for Somebody Somewhere. It is the most delightful, beautiful little show. And I’m sad it’s ending after three seasons, but they are three perfect little jewel box seasons, and if you somehow have not experienced the magic that is Bridget Everett, I don’t know this is what you should do with the rest of your winter break. You should go binge watch it.

Corinne

Absolutely. I haven’t watched Season Three yet. I’m also like…I’m not, like, a musical person, so sometimes I’m like, can we move along there?

Virginia

But did you see the reel of her singing Janis Joplin on Jimmy Fallon?

[Post-recording note: Virginia knows she talked about this show and shared this reel just last week and SHE DOES NOT CARE.]

fallontonight

A post shared by @fallontonight

Corinne

Yes, she’s incredible. Like, no hate. At all.

Virginia

They called it a karaoke performance. It was insulting. That was like a stadium arena level performance. I’m in love with her.

Corinne

She’s really cool, and the show is incredible. I just sometimes am fast-forwarding through the songs.

Virginia

I understand. It is always that thing where, like, you have this really talented actor who’s also an incredible singer. So you write in a plot line where they get to sing a lot, even though it’s maybe not totally in line with the episodes. But I’m like, so here for it, because I just find her so incredible. And the friend group is so great too!

Corinne

All the characters are really good.

Virginia

We are gonna miss that one, Bridget. I can’t wait to see what you do next. Iconic fat rep.

Oh, and I won’t do spoilers since you haven’t seen Season Three yet, but there was an episode early in season three that

Kim Baldwin

texted me and was like, “I’m really nervous they’re gonna go in a weight loss plot line direction,” and then they don’t. AndI actually think it’s one of the best episodes I’ve seen about being a fat person at a doctor’s office.

Corinne

Ooh.

Virginia

It’s very understated, because the whole show is very understated. It’s pretty nuanced, but they really show the whole experience of feeling vulnerable, when the gown doesn’t fit, and the way the doctor talks to her and all of that. And it’s so honest and well done. And her weight has never been part of the story, nor should it be. But the fact that they still wove it in as a part of life. It just is exquisitely done.

Corinne

Wow, that’s amazing. Well, that makes me really excited to watch.

Virginia

All right. Well, I just want to say a big thank you to all of our listeners. This has been a really, really great year making the podcast, and I’m excited to see what we do in 2025 How will we top these top five?

Corinne

Oh God, hard to say! I’m like, this means next year is 2 million downloads?

Virginia

Well, who knows. It could totally drop off, or it could blow up, and be at 5 million? Dream big, Corinne!

Corinne

Okay.

Virginia

Thanks for doing this with me.

Corinne

Yeah, thanks for doing this with me, and thanks to all our listeners.

It’s time for your December Indulgence Gospel. 

Today’s episode is both holiday and sex-themed, which seems right! We’re getting into:

️ How diet culture and anti-fatness show up during the holiday season. Comments from relatives! Fitness equipment as gifts! Matching family PJs! Etc.

️ Our NEW Ask Corinne segment, where Corinne answers your fat sex and dating questions, like: What do you do when certain positions just don’t work for your body?

To hear the whole conversation or read the whole transcript, you'll need to become a paid Burnt Toast subscriber. Subscribe here.

If you are already a paid subscriber, you’ll have this entire episode in your podcast feed and access to the entire transcript in your inbox and on the Burnt Toast Substack. You can also subscribe to Corinne's newsletter, Big Undies, for 20% off using this special link. 

To get all of the links and resources mentioned in this episode, as well as a complete transcript, visit our show page.

Also, don't forget to order Fat Talk: Parenting In the Age of Diet Culture! Get your signed copy now from Split Rock Books (they ship anywhere in the USA). You can also order it from your independent bookstore, or from Barnes & Noble, Amazon, Target, Kobo or anywhere you like to buy books. (Or get the UK edition or the audiobook!) 

Disclaimer: Virginia and Corinne are humans with a lot of informed opinions. They are not nutritionists, therapists, doctors, or any kind of healthcare providers. The conversation you're about to hear and all of the advice and opinions they give are just for entertainment, information, and education purposes only. None of this is a substitute for individual medical or mental health advice.

CREDITS

The Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith (follow me on Instagram) and Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus, and Big Undies—subscribe for 20% off! 

The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe.

Our theme music is by Farideh.

Tommy Harron is our audio engineer.

Thanks for listening and for supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism!

Thank you for subscribing. Leave a comment or share this episode.

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Virginia

I’m so excited for Ask Corinne. I’ve manifested this.

Corinne

I need to get back on the apps so I have some more advice to give.

Virginia

For anyone who missed the fat dating episode we did, I personally found it deeply instructive. I think Corinne gives excellent advice. You have continued to give me excellent advice. And so I just really felt like this needs to be a more official part of the Indulgence Gospel lineup.

Corinne

I do love telling people what to do.

Virginia

And you’re really good at it! You’re usually right.

OK, but holiday stuff first. We got many variations of this first question, so I’m going to read one big one—but we’re going to try to speak to everybody who has a relative they have to figure out how to talk to at the holidays.:

How much is too much confrontation at the holidays? My mother-in-law is constantly almond mom-ing in front of my kids. “I’m just going to be a little piggy and get another serving.” I typically confront most of it and it has actually helped. She’s gotten better. But this year we are going to a cousin’s house. Do I stop correcting her diet culture intrusions because we are not at my house? Do I take on the big stuff but leave the rest? Keep my mouth shut? I want to be a respectful guest to the host, but I also want to support and protect me and my kids. How do you balance this?

Corinne

The eternal question! How to deal with your family at the stressful times around stressful topics.

Personally, I would let it go. Or I would have a conversation beforehand. I think you could even frame it as, “I’ve really noticed that you’ve been making an effort to talk less about this, and I’m appreciating it. And I hope you’ll continue that, even though we’re going to be at my cousin’s house.”

Virginia

I love that. Give some positive feedback on the effort that has been made.

I also think you’ve made your point, and she maybe can only get so far. Maybe you’ve gotten what you’re going to get. I always come back to, when it comes to a grandparent saying this stuff or another extended family member saying this stuff in front of your kids— if it feels weird to tackle in the moment, you can debrief with your kids afterwards. You can protect your kids that way by making sure they’re aware of that you don’t agree with these comments, but you don’t necessarily have to be whack-a-mole responding to every instance in the moment.

Corinne

I also think those moments of tension between you and a family member are usually really unpleasant for someone else to witness, so I would maybe just not. I would save it.

Virginia

The other versions we got of this were things like, “How can I get my mom to stop commenting on my dad’s intake?” and, “Is it worth correcting aging parents on their unnecessary descriptor lingo, comments like ‘larger woman’ or ‘Black nurse?’”

Which, like, oh, man. Why do people do that? It’s so, so unnecessary.

Corinne

The dad’s intake one is so interesting, too.

Virginia

I feel like that’s between your parents? I don’t know that it’s your job to be in the middle of that.

Corinne

I want to know if it is bothering your dad or not?

Virginia

You could back him up if he wants to say something. But if he’s choosing not to say something, I don’t know that it’s your place to say something.

Corinne

Maybe ask your dad like, “Hey, does it ever bother you that mom is commenting on your intake?”

Virginia

“And do you want me to say something? Is it helpful if I say something?”

I would really go to your dad for direction there versus taking that on as your own personal project.

Corinne

But I could totally understand if it would be triggering to you to hear your mom commenting on someone else’s intake.

Virginia

Yes. And the unnecessary descriptors. Man, I don’t know. How do we get people to stop doing this?

Corinne

The descriptions that they’re mentioning here, like a larger woman or Black nurse, there’s nothing wrong with those things. But it’s sort of like, what’s the subtext?

Virginia

It’s that confusing thing, because we always say, “Don’t be colorblind! Don’t pretend someone’s not fat if they are.” Let’s reclaim these words. Let’s talk about this.

But then when you’re inserting race or gender or body size, etc into a conversation where the anecdote you’re about to tell me has nothing to do with those descriptors, you’re just bringing in that detail because you’re excited you saw a fat person. That we don’t need.

But how do you explain that nuance? This isn’t you making marginalized groups more visible, this is actually you othering a marginalized person more by needing to identify them in a situation when you wouldn’t say “that thin woman” or “we had this nice white nurse on grandad’s ward.” Or whatever. So that is the difference. But how you start to break that down for someone who’s probably somewhat unconsciously doing this, I don’t know. That’s just going to depend so much on your relationship with that person, and are they open to hearing this kind of feedback?

Corinne

Also with with aging parents, it’s such a fine line between: Are they actually going to be able to change this behavior? Or do you need to take care of yourself or build up some tolerance for stuff that probably isn’t going to change at this point? Not that you shouldn’t have a conversation!

Virginia

Well, just because they’re older, don’t assume they aren’t still capable of learning and growing. We all are capable of learning and growing forever. But if you’re looking for permission to let it go because it lets you have a better, more connected holiday with your family, then I think there’s an argument for that. And I think there’s an argument for no, I’m going to take it on this time and give it a shot.

Corinne

If I was going to take it on, I think I would like ask a question. Like, “Why are you telling me that they’re fat?”

Virginia

What did you mean by that? What is that one you that great line you have that I always go back to? “It’s so interesting…”

Corinne

Okay, I will ask the next question.

Massage for fat people? Being face down on the massage table with big boobs, with massage therapists who don’t have it in mind how uncomfortable that can be. Not knowing how sturdy the table is or how wide the sheets. Besides proactive self-advocacy on all these fronts, have you had any success with massage being wonderful and not stressful as a person in a larger than typical body in a massage therapist wellness office?

Virginia

So I just recently started getting massages again after probably a seven year hiatus. I had really not done it for a long time, and a big part of why I wasn’t doing it was because of concerns like this. And: Will I feel safe being naked with a stranger who’s going to touch my fat body? That is a real thing.

So what I ended up doing was booking someone who several of my friends had had really, really great experiences with. I think word of mouth is super important here. As it happens, my friends are all straight-sized, so they couldn’t weigh in on this part specifically, but they had told me enough about how professional he was and the general dynamic they had with him that I felt pretty confident going in it was going to be okay. And it was.

So I think step one is get a recommendation of someone who other people trust and feel safe with. And then I didn’t do this, but assuming you’ve got that recommendation, you should feel no qualms about emailing or texting ahead of time and saying, “I just want to make sure that your massage table can hold a larger person or X amount of weight.” And ask any other questions that you have.

Corinne

How was the table?

Virginia

I did okay on the massage table, even being face down with big boobs. I can understand why that’s not for everybody, but it was okay. He had some pillow type things. He put one under my shins, which weirdly helped? There are different ways they can adjust you with padding. And I think he had actually done some of that without me even having to ask, which was lovely. That made it a lot more comfortable. So I think just asking those questions up front. If you can’t, if you don’t feel like you can ask those questions up front, then no, this probably is not a person you want touching your naked body is kind of where I land on it.

What about you? Are you a massage person?

Corinne

I’m not a massage person. I’ve had a few massages. I’m super ticklish, so just not always super fun for me. My relevant experience is from getting tattoos, which I do weirdly feel like is sort of similar.

Virginia

I get that.

Corinne

Also because a lot of tattooers use massage tables to give tattoos. But, if there’s something you’re anxious about, you should ask them up front! Like, how much weight does this table hold? Or, “Have you had fat clients before?”

And if you do go forward with it and you’re lying on the massage table, face down with big boobs, feeling super uncomfortable, you should say something!

Virginia

Which is hard! It is a really vulnerable dynamic because you are now naked. And I think we’re so socially conditioned to people please, that it’s really hard in that moment not to want to be like, “it’s fine, it’s fine, everything’s fine.” But the entire point of the massage is for it to be beneficial to you. So if it is uncomfortable and not benefiting you, then you have to say something. Because there’s no reason to be there. That’s the opposite of what that person wants you to get out of that experience!

Corinne

Totally. I also think you’re right that someone with some experience will know how to adjust so it’s more comfortable for you. You’re probably not going to be the first fat person or person with big boobs that this person has ever worked with.

Virginia

Another tip I had is to look for someone who specializes in perinatal massage. Because the last time I did get massages super regularly was during my first pregnancy, when I was having a lot of migraines. You can’t take any good drugs when you’re pregnant, so I was like, I guess we’ll do massage. That massage therapist had a table with an indent for a pregnant belly to go in, it had boobs and a belly, basically, which would be great for a fat person, too!

So that’s something to seek out. They’ve actually thought about how to make it comfortable for bodies that might not be comfortable face down. So that could go a long way towards improving your experience.

Corinne

Totally. That’s smart.

Virginia

Okay, I’m delighted by this next question, although I admit, I don’t know that I understand it, but I’m just going to read it, and we’re going to have thoughts.

How do we feel about Santa being gay? Fat icon or fat stereotype?

Corinne, is Santa gay? Can you confirm this?

Corinne

Is this a typo? Was it supposed to be, how did we feel about Santa being fat? Is Santa gay? Like, what is this?

Virginia

I’m now Googling, is Santa gay? Okay, well, AI says Santa Claus is a fictional character and doesn’t have a sexual orientation like real people.

Corinne

So helpful.

Virginia

I do wonder if this person meant to type—but we know Santa’s fat! How do we feel about Santa being fat?

Corinne

But gay and fat are like one letter apart on the keyboard?

Virginia

Okay, so it’s a typo. We’re fine with Santa being gay, though. This podcast is pro-gay Santa. I just want to say that.

Corinne

Mrs. Claus is a drag queen.

Virginia

I mean, delightful.

Corinne

Santa can definitely be gay, I just wasn’t aware.

Virginia

Did you not get the memo?

Corinne

I didn’t get the memo to the queer community.

Virginia

“Santa is one of us!” Okay, but yes, I think this person meant to say: How do we feel about Santa being fat, fat icon or fat stereotype? And I would say fat icon!!

Corinne

I would say fat icon, too. There are actually not a lot of fat stereotypes around Santa. No one is like, “Oh, Santa, he’s so fat and lazy. He eats too much. Santa needs to go on a diet.” You’re supposed to give him cookies.

Virginia

I guess that’s a stereotype? But it’s not negative. You give Santa cookies because that’s what he expects and deserves. That’s how you say thank you. So it’s encouraging a fat person to eat, which is counter to a diet culture narrative. I mean, there’s the “he laughs with this big bowl full of jelly” thing? But I think that could just be a neutral slash positive description of a fat person laughing.

Corinne

And he does wear a fur-trimmed red velvet suit. So, icon.

Virginia

Another point in the gay column?

Corinne

Maybe fat gay icon.

Virginia

I think Santa is great fat rep. He’s admired. He’s universally beloved. He’s known to be a hard worker. He’s possibly exploiting the elves, but I don’t think that’s related to his fatness. I mean, there’s certainly a question mark about working conditions.

Corinne

Let’s assume the elves are unionized.

Virginia

Okay, then I feel great about all of it. We’ve got pro-union elves and gay Santa. I love it.

Corinne

Okay, great. Next question:

Do you have any favorite food based gifts to give for the holidays?

Virginia

I was thinking about this because I think I want to give some food based gifts this year and I don’t have a go-to. But I do think food based gifts are great because most people don’t want more clutter, and it’s something that gets used up.

Corinne

Yes, I just strongly agree.

Virginia

I think a nice olive oil is good. I’m like, five years late to this trend, but I’m very into the Graza olive oils that come in squeezy bottles, and I feel like they would be a great gift.

Also, is it just me, or is tinned fish having a moment right now?

Corinne

My God. You’re also five years late to that.

Virginia

Well, it’s in like five gift guides in my email right now! Everybody is talking about tinned fish, so clearly that is an option. And I feel like I am both five years late to that trend, and I was eating sardines like a decade ago. So I also am an early adopter on that trend, and it’s weird to me that now it’s like a bougie cool thing to give because I felt like I was sort of odd for eating it?

Corinne

You’re definitely right. Tinned fish has had a renaissance.

Virginia

It’s having a renaissance. The packaging is so cute.

Corinne

I really like giving food gifts, because I think people will use them. I have often given Rancho Gordo beans. I feel like that’s a fun one. Popcorn kernels. My mom always really likes to receive chocolate, so I’m usually trying to find some kind of chocolate caramel thing. I also think it can be really fun to give spices, like nicer spices. There’s that Diaspora Spice company, they have really nice packaging and delicious stuff.

Virginia

Oooh, there’s this spice I put in my pasta sauce that’s kind of my secret ingredient. Like, do I want to say it on the podcast?

Corinne

Yes, I want to know what it is.

Virginia

It’s called African rose rub (similar) and it’s kind of a paprika blend, like a smoky paprika blend. And I just put a little bit in a bolognese or a spicy sausage ragu, along with oregano and your usual stuff. It just adds another little dimension.

Corinne

That sounds really good.

Virginia

That would be a great gift for people who like my pasta sauce because I’ve been guarding that secret with my life. Now it’s out.

Corinne

My family usually just does stockings now, but I’ll often go to the health food store or Whole Foods or something and buy a bunch of little weird supplements and teeny chocolates, or local jam.

Virginia

Jam is a good one.

Corinne

The kind of stuff that you would buy as a treat, but not as an everyday kind of thing.

Virginia

One year, we got given cookie mix and cookie cutters. And it was delightful, because it wasn’t like I had to make it right away. It was a bagged mix, just like the bagged grocery store mix, but it was a great activity to do with my kids. I saved it till we had a snow day, and it was like what are we going to do to fill some time? And having this on hand as an easy, fun activity was delightful. So especially if you’re thinking of a food gift for families, I think a thing they can bake together could be really, really nice.

Corinne

My mom has given my sister baking mixes from King Arthur Flour, there are scones and stuff.

Virginia

Yeah, that’s so nice to have on hand. Like, you probably wouldn’t buy it yourself, but there is going to be some rainy Sunday when you’re like, oh, let’s make scones.

All right, on the food theme as well:

Do you have a favorite Christmas morning breakfast?

Corinne

We always do really big Christmas morning breakfast with my family. The essentials are, I need there to be some kind of breakfast meat. That makes it feel exciting to me, like bacon. Bacon or sausage, or both. We also usually have some kind of grapefruit. My mom likes to do the broiled grapefruit where you put a little sugar on the grapefruit and then broil it so it has, like, a creme brûlée top. And then we usually do waffles. It is really fun. It’s a production, you know? It takes a while, but it’s fun. And you can do toppings, like fruit, chocolate chips, whatever, syrup, whipped cream, if you want.

Virginia

That sounds really delightful. I struggle with Christmas morning breakfast because I host Christmas dinner and obviously have Santa and presents with the kids in the morning. So there’s a lot going on. Christmas Day has many moving parts. And yet, if I don’t eat breakfast, I’m going to be really grumpy. So often what I do, if I manage to wake up before the kids, which obviously doesn’t always happen, but frequently does because I’m such an early riser, I will still go make my smoothie first. Just because I’m like, I need to have my smoothie. I need to know I got some protein in before this craziness starts.

But I have done the tube of cinnamon rolls, like in the can that you pop the can. Because you can stick them in the oven while you’re opening presents, and then they’re ready. Something else I can prep ahead of time and bake that morning is helpful to me. Like, a breakfast casserole type thing, and something you can, bake ahead of time. I mean, in a world where I had way more leisure time than I do, I feel like I would prep breakfast burritos. But then you can just put them in the oven, and that would be really fun. And you could do them Christmas style, that’s very big in New Mexico! The red and green salsa. As I learned that when I visited Corinne.

That would be my dream Christmas morning breakfast. I don’t know that it will happen this year, but.

Corinne

Someday!

Another one about Christmas giving:

What do we think about fitness gear as gifts? Is it passive aggressive/offensive/triggering?

Virginia

This is a good question. I will never forget when I was about 12 or 14 or something—I’m going to throw my family under the bus here—my stepdad gave my mom a bike for her birthday, and she did not want a bike. In fact, he didn’t even get the bike. He just put cash in an envelope for a bike. And said, “this is for a bike,” which is also just like, bad form. And she was not pleased. She did not take it as a compliment. She did not take it as like, oh, what a lovely thing we could do together. I think she just fully rejected it.

Corinne

I mean, good for her.

Virginia

I think it was the right call. I don’t think he made that mistake again. So I think without someone actively soliciting fitness gear, I would not make that the gift.

Corinne

I was also going to say, I feel like it kind of depends on the context. Like, is it the only gift you’re getting them? Like, are you just getting them weights and bike shorts? Are you getting them also chocolate? And I don’t know, I think a lot of that stuff is also so personal that it’s really hard to gift. I wouldn’t trust someone else to pick out gym stuff for me.

Virginia

I wouldn’t know what power lifting shoes you like, unless you told us specifically. Even if someone is super into a sport, A. They probably already have a lot of the gear for it. And B. They have very specific opinions about the gear.

I mean, this is all just making me think of that Peloton commercial. Do you remember that commercial a few years ago? A guy gives the wife the peloton bike and—

Corinne

and she’s happy?

Virginia

She’s super happy about it in the commercial, but basically people like me wrote think pieces about how maybe she did not want to be given more labor to do with her holidays. And then people were like, “No, he’s giving her self-care,” and blah, blah, blah. And I was just like, I don’t know, man. I mean, people love their Pelotons, but I don’t think it should be an unsolicited gift.

Corinne

Agreed. Question for you, Virginia.

Gift Ideas for an eight year old. The eight year old loves to read, can’t do most craft kits and has a fine motor delay.

Virginia

I have raised two children in that vicinity—also readers who are not the craftiest—and I do have some ideas for you.

If this eight year old has not already begun the Wings of Fire series, that would probably be my book rec. It’s that or Warriors. They’re these endless, huge novels. Wings of Fire is about dragons and Warriors is about cat clans. This was the age that my older kid was just powering through these books about warring cats and they’re pretty accessible and fun. And there are graphic novel versions. And I think Warriors has graphic novels, manga, and regular novels. So whatever type of book they’re into, there’s a good entry point. So that would be my book rec.

The thing that’s was the big hit at the seventh birthday, so much so that I will be replicating and expanding upon it for Christmas, is a potion making kit. The one I got is from Amazon, I’m sorry. My seven year old was obsessed with it. They made little potions for everybody in our lives. It’s so cute. It comes with little bottles and you put in water and food dye and glitter and charms. We’ve used up everything that came in that first kit so now for Christmas, I’m going to go to Michaels and make my own and get bigger bottles and bigger things of glitter and put together a whole potion situation. It’s going to be very messy, obviously.

Glitter—well, you may not know this, Corinne, but glitter is a deeply polarizing topic for parents. Because it will never leave you once you have it in your house. But the glitter ship sailed here a long time ago, so I’m embracing it.

And then a board game we’re super into right now is called Goat’s Day Out. I am not the biggest fan of board games with kids, because I don’t like teaching kids to be good losers. I find it annoying how bad they are at losing. It’s just such a learning process to be like, it’s okay that you lost also you’re probably going to lose a lot, because you’re seven and I’m 43. I’m also not going to let you win. But this one is hard enough that we’re pretty evenly matched. The premise is that goats have gotten loose and they’re eating up all the garbage in the streets. So the game is you putting food in your goat’s stomach, and you kind of make a little puzzle. So it’s like light fine motor skills, but not very challenging fine motor skills, but it does work a little bit on that front, if that’s interesting to you. And it’s weirdly charming. The goats are delightful. And it’s funny that they eat hair dryers and stuff. I don’t know, it’s fun.

Then my last suggestion would be some kind of either a wobble board or a hover board. The hover board was the big gift when my older kiddo was eight, and it was the hit of Christmas. But there are also the low tech versions that are just like balance boards that kids really love to stand on.

Yes, I’m very good at shopping for eight year olds. This person was right to ask me.

Corinne

I love it. I’m going to ask you the next one, too.

Size inclusive family pajamas, particularly with youth plus sizes?

Virginia

Okay, before we get into what I found, Corinne, have you ever done the matching family pajama thing? Is this a part of your Christmas life?

Corinne

I’m going to say no. I feel like as kids, sometimes my mom would make us matching pajamas. And then I feel like there was one occasion as adults where my whole family got the same oversized t-shirt. But no.

Virginia

So are you aware of how this has taken over millennial parenting?

Corinne

Oh, well, maybe not. I’ve always been kind of envious of the matching Hanna Andersson thing, but I guess I didn’t know it was a huge millennial thing now.

Virginia

I think Hanna Andersson is definitely the origin story for this. They came out with these family pajama things probably easily 15 years ago or something, and made them really popular. And now it is like kind of a given that you will acquire and assemble your family in matching pajamas. A lot of people give them Christmas Eve, like Santa drops off the pajamas and maybe one present or something, and then that way, you have them to wear that night. Some people give them earlier in the season, which makes more sense, because you can then wear them longer.

I sound like I’m critiquing it, but I have totally done this and bought into it for many years. So I’m not judging it. But, it is one of those moments where I just want to say: It’s okay to step back and consider how useful this tradition is to you and your family.

Because every year, holiday PJs are a big thing on my to do list that actually is a lot of work. It’s hard to find pajamas that are cute enough, that I think my kids will wear, that come in all the right sizes for whichever of the adults want to participate, etc, etc, etc. It’s a lot of holiday magic-making labor that we know mostly only moms are going to execute. I don’t know a single father who has ever said, “You know what I’m gonna do this Saturday is figure out the family holiday pajamas.” Mostly, the dads are either not participating or begrudgingly participating.

So that is my top level rant.

Corinne

So are you doing it this year?

Virginia

Of course, we are doing it.

I suspect this may be our last year, because I do have a middle schooler, and her willingness to participate is a real open question. However, we have a baby niece in the family, and my little baby niece is so cute and I really want a picture of my kids and my niece in matching pajamas. Because I am a product of my culture, and my sister wants it, too. So we figured it out together. It was shared labor between the two moms.

We are doing these Primary pajamas. Primary is one of my recs if you have straight-sized kids, but plus size adults. Their adult pajamas are pretty roomy. I usually wear the XL. I’ve bought the XXL and they were very big on me. And they go up to 3X, but it’s a generous 3X. So Primary would be where I would look for plus size parent pajamas.

However, they do no plus size kids clothing! And in fact, their kids clothing tends to be cut quite narrow, so it’s a garbage option if that’s what you need for kids. And this was the recurring theme everywhere I looked: There are a lot of good options if you have plus size adults and straight sized kids, and there are shit options for plus size kids. Which just makes me really mad about this trend.

Corinne

Yeah, that’s really sad!

Virginia

It sucks. So some other places I found for good plus size options for adults plus the kids are straight size would be Pajamagram, Target has a ton, Walmart has this brand called PatPat that’s pretty cute. Kohl’s had a whole bunch of big and tall men’s pajamas with coordinating families, which is nice, because I think the plus size men’s options tend to be slimmer.

I found literally no brand doing plus size kids holiday pajamas. Even the brands that do plus size kids’ clothing were not doing their holiday pajamas in plus sizes for kids.

Corinne

That’s so sad.

Virginia

It’s so fucked up!! So I was texting with my friend who is a mom of plus sized kids, like, what are you doing? And we were going back and forth. Kohl’s has a nightgown. So for kids who like to wear a nightgown—which is, of course, not every child—but for kids who like to wear a nightgown, there is a cute plaid nightgown.

And I think a nightgown is maybe a better option, because pants are hard to size up because if the waist fits, the length will be wrong. But this nightgown is knee-length, so you could size it up and it’ll just be a longer nightgown, but it won’t be too long on a plus size kid. So I feel like nightgowns are one option.

The other option would be to go for cute holiday pants or leggings, which you could probably get in the regular section and call them pajamas. But this is so much labor. This is so much fucking labor.

I’m so upset about it. Why Old Navy? Why Walmart? Why Target? Lands End! All these brands that do plus size kids clothes are not doing their holiday pajamas in inclusive sizes.

Corinne

I hate that.

Virginia

Yeah, and like, fucking forget Hanna Andersson. Don’t even bother!

Sorry, it’s a depressing answer, I just hate it a lot, but I want it to be better. Or maybe we don’t have to do this anymore! Guys, I’m not doing holiday cards this year. I’m also just saying that.

Corinne

That’s awesome. Good for you.

Virginia

I’ll ask the next question to pick us up.

Advice for getting through the winter doldrums, particularly if you’ve just been depressed trying to do holiday pajamas.

Corinne

Oh, man, this is a tough one. I think the things that actually help me are things that are not always helpful to hear. One thing that always helps me is going to the gym. Sorry.

Virginia

I knew you were going to tell us that.

Corinne

I just, I’m sorry. And I also feel like…Going outside. Even if it’s shitty weather or it’s really cold. Like bundling up, seeing the sky, even if it’s not sunny. Looking at trees, going for a walk. It kind of makes you feel better.

It’s the worst advice.

Virginia

Its so annoying, but it does work.

Corinne

I don’t know. I also think leaning into the coziness! Staying inside, eating soup, watching TV. But when that starts to feel really doldrums, I do think going outside and exercise help. Unfortunately.

Virginia

It’s true. They do. I wish it was all lies, but here we are.

I realized I am systematically fighting winter doldrums through a variety of lighting sources throughout my day. I have recently gotten a sunrise alarm clock.

Corinne

Yes! I have one.

Virginia

It’s great right? I have to wake up super early on the days my kids go to school and it’s going to be pitch black forever, so having my room be light, not having to reach for the light switch. Such a small thing, but so helpful.

Corinne

It makes a huge difference.

Virginia

And then I’ve talked about them before, but we have these little LED candles that I put on the dining room table, little tapers, and so it just like feels a little sparkly. You’re eating dinner at five and it’s pitch black already, but you can have candlelight. You could use real candles, too, if you didn’t have kids and cats, like I do. I’m really into as many opportunities for sparkly light as possible throughout the day. I also have sparkly lights on some of my plants.

Corinne

Oh, that’s cool.

Virginia

I have a tall mass cane tree in the corner that I put sparkly lights on that really helps me. I leave that on all year round, but this time of year, I really appreciate her. And then the other one—this is not useful for everybody—but if you have a fireplace, I really recommend learning to build fires, which I have recently done, and it’s helping my mood quite a lot to be able to build a fire.

Corinne

Yeah, that’s awesome. You could also do outdoor fire pit!

Virginia

Yes! I now feel like I could maybe build a fire in a fire pit. Now that I’ve mastered my fireplace. What am I, some kind of Girl Scout? I’ve never had these skills. It’s super exciting.

So I feel like you just really have to be like an early human and seek out the light source.

Corinne

That’s really good advice. I use candles in the winter and have string lights in my kitchen. I also lean into the hot drinks, like have hot cocoa, tea, soup.

Virginia

All right, it is time for our new Ask Corinne segment! Corinne is our resident dating expert. I now have some dating experience… so I might chime in a little bit if I have useful things to say, but this is a Mostly Corinne segment. Okay, first question!

Red flags to look for on profiles that might indicate close mindedness related to fitness or weight? I usually look for how much their profile mentions their own physical fitness, as well as mentioning healthy lifestyle as what they are looking for in a partner. But sometimes it’s hard to know how strict to be on this. Wanting to protect myself while also remaining open. I’m also thinking of whether there are ways to smoke people out prior to the date through asking different questions. My fear is always going on a date and someone being visibly disappointed by my looks and then treating me poorly, which has happened. So I suppose another question is quick exit strategies.

A lot going on here, but I think this is, this is very real.

Corinne

This is so stressful. Like, dating and meeting new people is hard enough without having to worry about this. The labor of trying to figure out what someone else is thinking is so hard.

Virginia

So hard.

Corinne

I feel like the one that I often see where I’m like NOPE is “active.” Even though, like, I probably am an active person?

Virginia

You told us to go to the gym and walk outside when we’re sad, so yes. You are active.

Corinne

But I would never put that in my dating profile! Because it does feel like it’s code for something else.

Virginia

Yeah, if you’re leading with “active” to the point that you’re putting it in your dating profile, you’re telling me this is a huge part of your personality. Which feels revealing to me.

Corinne

It feels like a dog whistle. It feels like “I’m looking for someone who can keep up with me.”

Virginia

I have a strict rule against gym photos on profiles. If I see a gym photo, that’s right up there with the men with fish, I’m swiping past.

Corinne

I definitely have put gym photos in my thing in the past. But it’s different.

Virginia

You do a very cool, interesting thing at the gym, though. Because you do powerlifting.

Corinne

It’s true, it’s not like a mirror selfie.

Virginia

No, I’m talking about the mirror selfie. No one needs to see that. Put that away. That’s just you thought you looked hot.

I mean, I get putting photos where you think you look hot, but it’s telling me you want me to think you spend a lot of time at the gym, and that you’re working out in a way that’s making you hotter. And neither of those things are interesting to me.

Corinne

Yeah, I would also say—and I feel like this is just more like my overall general advice. But if you’re wondering or you’re trying to suss it out, I feel like there’s just no harm in asking directly. Like, you could just be like, “Hey, your profile says that you’re interested in a healthy lifestyle. What does that mean to you?” Or, like, “I noticed this and I’m worried that means you’re fatphobic.”

Virginia

Oh, I love that.

Corinne

Because why not? If they say “yeah, I am,” then you’re like, great I just saved myself some time!

Virginia

Right? I saved myself 15 minutes of going to ice cream with you and realizing you’re an asshole. For people who don’t know, that’s Corinne’s other rule for first dates, you keep it to 15 minutes.

Corinne

That’s not exactly the rule, but okay.

Virginia

They can listen to the episode if they want all the details, but basically, that’s her rule.

Welcome to Indulgence Gospel After Dark! This month we’re talking about… dating while fat!

Corinne

I do think that applies to the second part of this question, which is about quick exit strategies. Because I think, better than having an exit strategy is planning for it to be a short date. Then if it is a short date, that’s fine. And then if you’re like, “let’s do something else after this,” then that’s fun.

Virginia

I totally agree. One thing I am appreciating about online dating—and I say this as someone who has very limited experience and doesn’t have the trauma stories that a lot of people have of having online dated for years. But I really find a dating app to be an effective tool for filtering. You can just ask things very bluntly, and say very clearly what you need. And if it doesn’t work for the person, then great, they don’t exist to me anymore. Like, there’s something extremely liberating about that.

Corinne

Yeah, and I think it feels less scary to have that confrontation or conversation over text or messaging versus face to face.

Virginia

Yeah, oh my God. I want to throw up trying to do it in person, but over text, I’m just like, okay, bye! It’s so easy. Why be nervous about talking to a stranger on the Internet? I mean, I guess that’s my whole job, so maybe I’m less nervous about it than other people. But what do you have to lose?

Corinne

You’re equally as much looking to find someone who you want to spend time with as who wants to spend time with you. So that kind of person isn’t a good fit anyways!

Virginia

Yeah, they are not for you, and that is fine. You will find people who are for you.

I will say, though, on the exit strategies, one thing I have realized is that it can be tricky to find the words to leave if you’re not having a good time.

This person is concerned that you’re gonna get on the date and someone’s going to be visibly disappointed or gross to you. And in that case, I think I’d have fewer reservations about just being like, “Okay, I’m going to leave now. This is not great.” And like, I don’t care about their feelings. But do you have any good go-to lines when you’re like, I need to wrap this up. Maybe they’re not being like a total asshole, but you’re getting the vibe, and you’re like, “This is not going to be good.” How do you how do you extricate?

Corinne

Um, well, I have some tips, but also, I’m trying to NEVER put myself in that situation, you know? I think it can be really nice to talk on the phone before you go on a date, which I know it’s terrifying. I know it’s so horrible and scary, but I feel like on the phone you can tell sometimes. Like, oh, it’s going to be easy to talk to this person, versus in a way that you can’t tell over text.

However, if you do find that yourself in that situation, I think one thing you can do that is a little sneaky maybe would be like, “Um, well, you know, it’s getting late, I’ll let you go,” or something. Making it sound like it’s their idea.

Virginia

Oh, that’s good.

Corinne

I also think if it’s really bad, you can just be like, “I want to go home. I’m going to leave.”

Virginia

I don’t want to be here with you anymore, so I’m going to go be elsewhere where you are not.

Corinne

You’re allowed to say, “I’m tired, I’m going to go home.”

Virginia

You are allowed to say that!

Corinne

And you can say, “I had a really good time, but I’m going to go home.” Like, you can lie. It’s fine to lie. You can also say, “I’m not having a good time I’m going to go home.” I don’t know. I think people come up with stuff like, like, have a friend call you 15 minutes in so if you need an excuse.

Virginia

To check in.

Corinne

But just do what you need to do. If you need to leave, just say you need to leave.

Virginia

I’ve definitely defaulted to being very nice in order to leave, which, especially for women dating straight men, sometimes feels necessary from a safety perspective. So I’ve definitely been like, “Oh yeah, we’ll definitely do it again! So great. You’re so great. That’s wonderful. Okay, bye.”

And then the only thing about that is you have to be ready to use your words in text the next day when they’re following up. And that’s when I’ll be like, “That felt like a one time thing for me, but it was so nice to meet you.” And just don’t engage past that. Honestly, most guys have been like, “Wow, thank you for telling me and not just ghosting.” But I haven’t been able to bring myself to say that in person because it feels too scary.

Corinne

I think that’s fair. The other thing I think about is, like, if the roles were reversed, if I was on a date with someone who was having a really bad time and just trying to leave, I would so much rather that they just leave. I don’t want to be keeping someone in a place that they don’t want to be. When you’re just getting to know someone, your ego isn’t going to suffer such a huge blow if they’re like, hey, I’m not enjoying this.

Virginia

It’s going to sting a little bit, but it’s going to be okay.

Corinne

You can recover.

And I think at this age, we’ve all been in enough situations that we don’t want to be in that we’re not trying to put that on someone else.

Virginia

For sure. Just to bring it back to the whole fatness of it all, if you feel like the reason it’s not going well is because someone is not appreciating your body… you just don’t need that. You don’t need that. You don’t need to conform or try to be different for them. You just don’t need that. It’s not worth it. Because there’s no way that’s going to improve.

Corinne

Yeah. You don’t need to convince someone.

Virginia

No, no, absolutely not. That’s enraging to me that you would be put in that position.

I’m very curious for your notes on this next one. This is a great question. This person wrote,

Sometimes I feel uncomfortable because certain sex positions are uncomfortable or not doable for me due to my belly. I’m wondering how to navigate this and whether there are resources for fat sex.

And we also got a related question about fat friendly positioning aids for sex, which I’m assuming might be one strategy you would employ here.

Corinne

Yes. Well, my advice for the sex positions that are uncomfortable or not doable for you due to your belly would be to not do those positions.

Virginia

Yes, don’t do things that are uncomfortable.

Corinne

If you’re doing something that’s uncomfortable, you should definitely say something. And again, I would say, imagine the roles are reversed. If you’re having sex with someone and they’re uncomfortable, you would really want to know! Like, that’s not a good situation for anyone to be put in.

Virginia

Yeah, agreed.

Corinne

So I think you have to speak up.

I did just discover there’s a podcast called Fat and Fucked which I have only listened to a tiny bit of, but they have fat people on and talk to them about sex. Marina from Peridot Robes has been on, and so has Caleb Luna, Dr Chairbreaker and I’m assuming that they probably have a lot of good advice. I think one of the episodes talks about positioning aids, but I haven’t listened to enough to really know yet.

Virginia

I think what you’re saying about it really coming down to communication with your partner is super smart. And I think too: Don’t silo this off into something that you feel like you can’t speak about. In order to have good sex, you need to have good communication about all of the things. And just I would hope you would feel comfortable being like, “I don’t like doing…” whatever sex act you’re not that into. Or, “I do like this. I hope we do more of that.” I think you can just matter of factly say, “This position is not going to work for me.” Or, “I really like it better when I’m in this position.”

Because your partner also should really want you to be having a very good time, like a really great time, and so they would only want to do the things that are going to feel very great for you, and not anything where you’re going to be uncomfortable.

Corinne

Yeah. There are all kinds of reasons that people don’t want to do certain things, and not just because of bellies or whatever. You’re not the only person who has preferences about positions or can’t do certain positions. Everybody has certain preferences. It’s fine.

Virginia

You are entitled to your preferences, and you don’t need to apologize for them, or feel like you need to compensate in some way. Whoever you’re sleeping with is very lucky to be sleeping with you! That’s how I feel.

Well, that was pretty fun. Thank you for tackling more sex and dating questions for us.

Corinne

Yeah. Going to have to do some more research.

Virginia

Slide into Corinne’s DMs, friends.

Virginia

Since we were just doing a spicy conversation, I’m going to recommend a spicy and seasonally appropriate book trilogy, which is the books by Julie Murphy and Sierra Simone. The first one is called Merry Little Meet Cute. The second one is called Holly Jolly Ever After, and the new one that just came out is called A Jingle Bell Mingle.

They are all very spicy, open door romances. And the premise is there’s a town in Vermont called Christmas Notch, where they shoot Hallmark Christmas movies, but a porn company takes over, and there’s various plots where now the porn stars are in the Hallmark movies, or the Hallmark stars are in the porn. There’s porn Hallmark crossover, basically. So most of the characters are porn stars or members of a boy band. It’s a lot. It’s a rich world. It’s very queer friendly. I mean, the primary romances are heterosexual, but the sex is definitely not vanilla, straight person sex. And it’s whimsical and charming, and the Christmas stuff is funny, and their writing is so smart and funny. And I think all three female protagonists are fat.

Corinne

Wow, that’s cool.

Virginia

Well, Julie Murphy is going to write fat characters. I mean, that’s what she does. Fat positive, no weight loss, just hot fat people having great Christmas porn sex.

Corinne

Wow, amazing.

Virginia

Why didn’t they ask me for a blurb? Seriously, that was so good.

Corinne

New career goal, blurbing fat romance books.

Virginia

I wish they would write another one. I think they just finished the trilogy. There are some novellas they did online, too, that I really found that go with that. It’s a whole world.

What about you?

Corinne

I have recently really gotten into quilting. I took a quilting class here with one of my friends, and I just have spent a lot of time listening to audiobooks and quilting.

I’m not necessarily recommending that everyone get into quilting, but I think having a craft or hand activity while listening to an audio book is just such a nice way to pass time. I could see puzzling, doing a puzzle while listening to an audiobooks. But the combo of something to do with your hands and something to listen to I really enjoy. I I sped right through the Fourth Wing and A Court of Thorns and Roses.

Virginia

I do it in the summer with gardening. Gardening is a great combination. In the winter with puzzles. I’m not doing any kind of crafty things at the moment, but puzzles, for sure. And I love that you’re quilting. That’s really fun.

Corinne

It is really fun.

Virginia

I’m going to throw in a little bonus bButter. I just remembered one other thing I wanted to talk about that is not sexy at all, but is helpful to us at this time of year. I am getting over a terrible cold where I lost my voice for five days, because that’s what I do with my children’s germs and my real salvation this cold was the Vick’s Vapo shower tablets.

Corinne

I’ve always wanted to try those!

Virginia

I really recommend them. Really helpful if you are in the terrible coughing fit day, also with the terrible congestion. You just throw it in the shower—I mean, you still need to take all the regular medicine. Don’t get me wrong, this isnt going to replace anything. But it was definitely like, oh, I can breathe for a few minutes. Even a few minutes after the shower. The shower tablets, they’re great.

Well, this was a great episode. I feel like this was such a fun holiday romp for us. Burnt Toasties, we are very grateful for you, and this has been a very fun year of making this podcast. So we hope you have amazing holidays of whatever variety you celebrate or don’t.

The Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith (follow me on Instagram) and Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus, and Big Undies—subscribe for 20% off!

The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe.

Our theme music is by Farideh.

Tommy Harron is our audio engineer.

Thanks for listening and for supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism!

Today Virginia is chatting with Anna Maltby. 

Anna is a health journalist, editor, content strategist, personal trainer, and author of the newsletter How to Move. Anna also created Pilates For Abortion Funds, a monthly online class that has raised about $30,000 for abortion funds since July 2022. She has been an ACE-certified personal trainer since 2015, and a certified mat pilates instructor since 2021. She’s also a certified prenatal and postpartum exercise specialist. Anna lives in Brooklyn with her husband, two kids, and two extremely cute cats.

Anna was previously a guest on one of Burnt Toast’s most popular ever episodes, The Myth of Visible Abs. What’s so great about Anna—and what makes her different from a lot of fitness writers and personal trainers out there—is that she’s so smart about bodies, she’s truly anti-diet and size neutral as a fitness professional…and, she’s been in the belly of the beast. Anna worked in women’s magazines with me long enough to know all the diet culture tricks. So she’s one of my favorite people to talk fitness with, because she can dissect what is marketing, what is diet culture, and what is actually maybe useful for your body.

Two content warnings for today:

1. We are going to talk about specific forms of exercise. This will always be through a weight neutral lens, but if you’re recovering from an eating disorder or just otherwise in a place where exercise is not serving you, please take care.

2. CW for Butter, because we ended up talking quite a lot about toilets! And while I feel it’s all incredibly practical information and you’re going to thank me for my great Butter recommendation this week, I do realize that toilet conversation is not for everyone. It’s usually not for me! So I get it! You’ve been warned.

To tell us YOUR thoughts, and to get all of the links and resources mentioned in this episode, as well as a complete transcript, visit our show page.

If you want more conversations like this one, please rate and review us in your podcast player! And become a paid Burnt Toast subscriber — subscriptions are just $7 per month! —to get all of Virginia's reporting and bonus subscriber-only episodes. 

And don’t forget to check out our Burnt Toast Podcast Bonus Content! 

Disclaimer: You’re listening to this episode because you value my input as a journalist who reports on these issues and therefore has a lot of informed opinions. Neither my guest today nor I are healthcare providers, and this conversation is not meant to substitute for medical or therapeutic advice.

FAT TALK is out in paperback! Order your signed copy from Virginia's favorite independent bookstore, Split Rock Books (they ship anywhere in the US!). Or order it from your independent bookstore, or from Barnes & Noble, Amazon, Target, or Kobo or anywhere else you like to buy books. You can also order the audio book from Libro.fm or Audible.

CREDITS

The Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith and Corinne Fay. Follow Virginia on Instagram, Follow Corinne  @SellTradePlus, an Instagram account where you can buy and sell plus size clothing and subscribe to Big Undies.

Our theme music is by Farideh.Tommy Harron is our audio engineer.Thanks for listening and for supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism. 
Thank you for subscribing. Leave a comment or share this episode.

Virginia

Last time you were on the podcast, we talked specifically about how diet culture has co-opted ab workouts. This was inspired by a viral Twitter thread you wrote back then—back when we were on Twitter, back when we called it Twitter—where you really laid out how core muscles are super important, but the way the fitness industry markets workouts just completely misses the point.

So can you walk us through that a little bit? Because every time I even bring that up with people minds are blown.

Anna

There’s so much here, but I think the TLDR is that abs—flat abs, defined abs, visible abs—have a real hold on us as a culture. They have forever, unfortunately, and diet culture knows that. They’re going to use this promise of visible abs to get you to buy a bunch of stuff which is sketchy at best. Because for the vast majority of people those visible, defined abs are not a realistic, or at least a sustainable, goal.

What’s frustrating for me is that all of that is kind of a distraction from the many ways in which having strong and functional abs is great for you and can help you move and feel better. So I find it self-defeating. Visible ab talk is feeding into diet culture, and it’s not supporting us in any way.

Virginia

It really is wild that this very specific aesthetic trait—the ability to have visible stomach muscles, which only certain body types are going to be able to pull off even with a lot of effort—that has become our focus. Sometimes I just have to take a minute and think: Why do we care so much about how someone’s stomach muscles look like? It’s really weird.

Anna

For some reason Botox and forehead wrinkles are popping into my head. This is a bad metaphor because your forehead doesn’t really do anything for you. But what if your forehead had some amazing function, and we were distracting ourselves with the aesthetics of it by spending all this money on Botox. It’s adding this whole additional layer of functional purpose on top of the ridiculousness of the diet salesmanship of it.

Virginia

You revisited this whole conversation recently on

How to Move

which I want everyone to subscribe to, because it’s fantastic. You wrote a piece that was in conversation with a piece by another fitness writer we both like, Casey Johnston, who wrote a piece calledthe core workout is a scam.

Casey pointed out that even major fitness influencers on Tiktok will talk about how they make content with ab exercises that they actually don’t even do themselves, because they know that abs, abs, abs is what gets engagement. This brought me back to some of our lady mag days. I don’t know about you, Anna, this felt familiar to some of those workouts that we put on magazine covers.

How to Move

Are ab exercises bad, actually?

As a society, we’ve been sold a hell of a bill of goods about the abdominal muscles…

Listen now

a year ago · 14 likes · 3 comments · Anna Maltby

Anna

I love Casey. I really admire her work, and I think she’s so right that influencers and whoever else is trying to sell you workouts, they definitely post this kind of like core workout or ab workout very intentionally. It’s not necessarily that it’s a good workout. It’s not that it’s what the influencer does. It’s not that it’s going to achieve that aesthetic.

It’s that you’re looking at this influencer, you see their body, you see them post this thing, and you’re like, “Ooh, if I do that thing, I’ll get that body.” That’s definitely a scam. I think it was kind of wild to see the influencer that Casey included in her piece, she had posted on Tiktok just saying outright, “I used to be this very toxic fitness influencer. I posted these ab workouts. It was completely a fake. I never did it. I only posted it for engagement.” It definitely reminded me of those kind of get ripped abs, toned core in 10 days—those kinds of cover lines that we used to write at magazines.

Virginia

The workouts we would write that nobody was doing.

Anna

Exactly, and it’s so similar because you would look at this beautiful, thin, toned, cover model next to these cover lines. Did that model ever do that workout?

Virginia

No, absolutely not. Not even the model in the shoot for that workout! Other than when she was posing for the photos.

Anna

Yes. She would show up on set looking like that. She would leave set looking like that. And she would never do that workout ever again.

Virginia

It’s just wild. I hope that’s the kind of thing that people know, but I don’t think it is. It’s hard, when you look at this content, to separate the myth from reality with what you’re seeing. Even for those of us in the industry, it’s hard not to see those workouts and think, oh, okay, what is that? What works for that? It’s so easy to get sucked in.

Anna

Yes, I think that we all have that instinct to think that’s going to work. And not all of us have this sort of baked-in layer of skepticism or or even knowledge that that’s not what’s actually going on.

So I thought Casey’s piece was really interesting. This idea that ab workouts are a scam. She’s a big fan, of course, of heavy lifting and barbell focused workouts, and I definitely am, too. I love barbells. I love lifting as heavy as I can, although I personally don’t use barbells as much as I would really like to these days. And Casey suggests that if you’re doing those kinds of workouts, you’re getting plenty of core work.

I think that is probably true. If you’re doing a really heavy deadlift with a barbell, your core is working really hard to support your spine during that movement, even just carrying those those plates and lifting them up to put them on the bar, the twisting, all of that is really amazing, functional core work. But I also think most people are not doing those kinds of workouts.

Virginia

That’s not a very accessible workout for a lot of people.

Anna

Even if you are doing strength exercises with lighter weights at home, you’re probably getting some core work as well. But it’s not necessarily all the core work you could ever need in the world.

So I’m kind of thinking of Casey’s piece with a little bit of caveat. It’s like, yes, if you’re doing all that stuff, you’re probably golden. Probably most people are not doing that stuff. Probably you could benefit from more.

And I also think that even if you are someone doing a heavy barbell workout, there’s still a chance you could benefit from a little bit of additional core work. And I’m not talking about the scammy influencer 20 minute ab workouts. I’m talking about some very functional, core focused strengthening movements which can also help make your lifts better.

SO I take it with a grain of salt. Basically anything that bills itself as a core workout you could, could probably raise an eyebrow to. But I don’t think it’s true that core exercises across the board are worthless.

Virginia

No, it’s that they’ve been marketed for the wrong purpose. They have lots of value in terms of building functional core strength, but they’re sold to us as weight loss, get a visible six pack, etc. And so the scam is how they put all your focus on that aesthetic goal, which is going to be out of reach no matter how many core exercises you do, versus the strength building part and the function part.

Let’s drill into that a little bit more. What do you think is the value of core workouts? And on behalf of of my people who have always hated core exercises: What are some ways you can reframe how you think about core strength so it doesn’t feel like, Oh God, that’s the part of the workout I hate the most.

Anna

Yes, totally. So what is it for? I’ll just quote Casey’s piece, because I thought this was really smart.

The whole point of a core is that it needs to be able to connect and coordinate the other parts of the body in order to be effective. Cores can’t learn to be the solid, coordinating central conduit for movement by doing, for instance, a five-minute plank alone.

So it’s all part of a system. The point of a core is not just to be strong in isolation. It’s to be strong in a way that supports movement throughout the rest of your body, whether it’s laying down in a bed and then getting back up out of that bed, or picking up something heavy, or holding something heavy in one hand and something light in the other hand, and not getting completely out of whack and of balance.

Whether you’re building that strength by doing a heavy barbell workout like Casey likes to do, or something more like Pilates, which I teach, we’re always loading your core by moving the extremities in different ways. Those are both great examples of this whole thing working as a system.

Virginia

As you’re saying that, I’m realizing how much the “core in isolation” is, again, part of diet culture. Because that’s about the aesthetics and not about the function.

Anna

Exactly. It doesn’t make sense to do a workout like Pilates all the time. It makes sense to do it maybe once or twice a week as a foundation to the other things that you’re doing, because if you can make your core, your pelvic floor, your back muscles work really functionally in tandem with the rest of your body, then the other kinds of movements that you’re doing throughout the week will be easier. And that’s movement whether it’s a workout or dancing or walking, or I have a client who owns a bookstore, so she’s picking up heavy boxes, putting things away on a shelf, and reaching and taking things up and down stairs. It’s going to support all of those other things. So it’s a really helpful thing to do. But it’s not that you need to do it every single day, you know?

I will say, though, when I see something like “core workouts are a scam,” I do kind of cringe about that a little bit. Because there are definitely lots of people who don’t enjoy a core workout, and it’s not their thing—no shade at all. But there are also people who really love the 20 minute abs class at their gym. Do they need to be doing that? Is it completely necessary? Maybe not, but if they really like it, and it gets them active, and it gets them feeling good in their body— keep doing it. You don’t have to stop.

Virginia

We’re not here to shame anyone who loves a 20-minute ab class. I am fascinated by you, but I respect that you have that preference.

Anna

I just don’t want to make people feel bad about what they’re doing, because the most important thing is to do something right? We want to help people find something that you can do and that you can sustain. So let’s open your mind to other ways of moving that might be supportive in other ways. But let’s also not get disheartened because we’re seeing that this is not “the perfect way”to exercise or whatever.

Virginia

Totally. And I’ll also just share, as someone who does identify as hating core work, I have come to appreciate it so much more through your workouts and through talking to you about it, because it’s made me realize how much the “I hate core workouts” came from knowing I’m never going to have the visible six pack. Being able to put that down means now I do notice, ohhh, when I get my core properly engaged, my back hurts so much less. Taking the giant bag of dog food in from the curb feels less painful. I get off the floor a lot more easily after giving my seven-year-old a bath. it’s these small things that are really not that small, actually.

Anna

Yeah, I couldn’t agree more. It’s almost about safety in your body, right? I’m capable of doing these things. I don’t have to feel fear around movement. I’m comfortable moving throughout the day. There’s so much to be said for that. You say they’re they’re small things, but they’re not really small.

I really want to encourage people to get to know how their body responds to exercise because of all this noise about aesthetics, we haven’t been trained to notice these more internal or intrinsic kind of things, but if you can tap into functional changes, or just how you feel moving through the day. Are you waking up a little less creaky? Are you able to pick that thing up, or are you able to bend down into the bath more comfortably?

Virginia

Shampooing a fast-moving seven-year-old is quite the core workout, in fact.

Anna

Wrestle them into their jackets and all that stuff. This goes back to the central question of why is the myth of visible abs so frustrating? There are so many other things that not just abs, but a functional and strong body, can do for you. To me, those things are better motivators.

I exercise also because of back pain. What got me started on exercise, and got me sticking with exercise, was that I was throwing my back out all the time. And I do that a whole lot less if I’m active regularly. And that’s a really good motivator, and it is achievable and it’s noticeable. And I get punished if I’m not doing it, because my back hurts.

Virginia

Yep. It’s a real one to one connection.

Anna

We have to also talk about people who do need core-specific exercises. It’s a bit more of a rehabilitation focus, but that might include people who are recovering from an injury or surgery. And especially people who are recovering from childbirth, whether that’s a vaginal birth or C-section. A pretty functional body who’s not in that situation, they’ll get really great core work from whatever the else they’re doing, chances are. But in these situations, I do think that isolating your core and targeting your core muscles from a rehabilitative standpoint, is really important. And I think if, like those of us who are who are listening, who’ve had a baby at home, like a brand new baby that they gave birth to, have probably had that experience of like, “Oh my god, where, where are my abs? Where is my core?”

Virginia

They have left the building.

Anna

I can’t do anything. They’ve left the building. And it’s temporary. It’s okay. They will be back. You need to heal. You need to recover. But it’s kind of funny, because you’ll get the advice that you shouldn’t lift anything heavier than five or ten pounds or don’t pick up anything heavy. Try not to do anything until you’ve had more time to heal. But like when you have a new baby at home, you’re picking up and putting down a growing baby

Virginia

Plus a car seat!

Anna

75 times a day. I just remember nursing in bed and then trying to get up out of the bed while holding the baby, and you’re basically doing a weighted sit-up. It’s so, so brutal. And it’s not realistic to say you can’t do any of that stuff until you’ve rehabilitated your core. You need to be able to live your life. But I think that working with rehabilitative exercises as you’re working through your day to day life, is going to make it easier. You’re going to get better, you’re going to start to heal, you’re going to regain that strength so much better than if you’re just not doing any of the rehab and only doing this sort of demands of daily life.

So I want to say, if you’re in that situation—and I think this is also true if you’ve had some kind of abdominal or pelvic or hip surgery—and you’re recovering and you have to have that rest period, rehabilitative exercises can be really, really supportive.

Virginia

What I’m thinking as you’re talking too, is how all of these benefits we’re talking about have absolutely nothing to do with weight loss. This isn’t about, are you losing the baby weight? This isn’t about anything to do with that.

And yet, again, because of the way diet culture trains us to think about core in the past, if I wasn’t losing weight, I wasn’t aware of these benefits. It was harder to tune into these benefits, or if I did notice these benefits, I credited them with any weight loss that was happening. But whether your weight changes or not from exercise is its own separate thing. We could just put that over here. It might happen, it might not. And the core stuff, you can achieve that whether or not the weight changes. And I just want to name that, because I think that’s another place this gets so, so tangled.

Anna

Yes, I think that’s so important. There’s a wonderful perinatal coach named Jessie Mundell, who I’m a huge fan of. She takes a super inclusive approach. And she’s in a larger body. I think I texted you when I did her postpartum certification program, and I was like, “Virginia! There are fitness models in this program in larger bodies! It’s so helpful. It’s amazing. It exists.” And she likes to say, and I’m gonna gonna get the exact words wrong, but it’s something like, you can have a round, pudgy, poochy, cellulite, diastasis recti belly and a functional core. The aesthetics do not predict the functionality.

Virginia

That’s so helpful. It’s so important. Especially if you have the diastasis or the poochy belly, you just think, “Well, that’s it. I will never have a strong core.” And that can just be defeating to even starting with this kind of exercise. So, so important to name.

Anna

Yeah. There are elite athletes who are competing with a three or four finger diastasis.

Virginia

The other piece of this you touched on a little bit is the back pain piece. And I love to talk about back pain because it’s one of my personal hobbies and key personality traits.

Anna

I don’t love that for you.

Virginia

Well, it’s becoming much less of a hobby, but for a long time it was. And, I just think back pain is so, so common, especially in our demographic. Whether you’re post-kids or just in perimenopause. There’s a lot of back pain in in our world. And it has absolutely blown my mind as I’ve been doing your workouts, and I do Lauren Leavell’s strength training videos, and recently I’ve switched into heavier weights—not barbells, but going from like, 10 pounds to 20 pounds. And… my back is having so many fewer problems.

And I don’t get it, Anna. I don’t get it! Because like you were saying, we’re told don’t lift heavy things, be so careful. And for so long, I had this narrative of myself as “oh my back goes out all the time, so I’m kind of fragile,” and need to be really careful.

But that turns out to be a lie? So please just explain that.

Anna

Okay, I’m gonna go deep here, so stay with me.

So some of this is coming from from Anna the trainer, but a lot of this is coming from Anna the journalist and Anna the content strategist, who works at a physical therapy company. I spend a lot of time with physical therapists.

And there’s this interesting concept in the physical therapy world called movement optimism, and it gets at what you’re saying, which is maybe moving your body is a better approach for dealing with pain than avoiding movement. Reframing movement as positive and supportive versus the idea like, “this movement is safe and this movement is unsafe” is generally a more helpful approach.

I think there’s there can be so much fear around movement for people. And I think a lot of people with chronic pain, recurring injuries, even a history of body trauma, can start to think of themselves as weak and fragile, and think of movement as something they really need to be careful about. And while it may be true that like, okay, a certain type of movement maybe was sort of the catalyst for the pain that you’re experiencing, pain is so much more complex than many of us realize.

I’m going to credit two PTs here that I’ve interviewed recently about this, Dylan Peterson in California and Ann Nwabuebo in DC. Those interviews are going to be on my Substack soon, hopefully. Full disclosure, I’m not a DPT. This is like a DPT level conversation, but I’m going to walk through some of what I’ve learned from them.

So it’s not just that physical trauma of the injury itself that is contributing to your pain. There’s a huge emotional or psychological element. We know that we hold stress and tension in many parts of our body, like for a lot of us, it’s like our neck, our shoulders, our jaw, pelvic floor, hips.

Virginia

Maybe all of the above.

Anna

Absolutely. There’s also a big link between things like anxiety, depression, PTSD and aches and pains and which way it goes could be either way, right?

Virginia

Oh, interesting. Yeah, makes sense.

Anna

Then there are postural issues. So we know that the way that we carry ourselves, or sit or stand or move can contribute to pain. Tension, discomfort in our bodies. Next, there’s inflammation and inflammatory conditions, whether it’s a GI condition or even something like endometriosis or fibroids, those conditions can contribute to or just even be related to greater inflammation throughout the body. Our muscles and soft tissues can respond accordingly.

And then finally, there’s this concept called central sensitization, which it basically means our bodies have experienced pain in the past, and so they almost go into overdrive trying to protect us from future damage by sending us these pain signals, even when our body isn’t in any real danger. It’s like our brain is really trying to help us that it’s like going too far and causing pain where we’re not actually like causing tissue damage with that movement.

First of all, of course, if our muscles are stronger, more mobile, better able to provide us stability in those places where we’ve had pain before, whether it’s your back, hip and knee, we’ll theoretically be able to move through that area with less discomfort. And that’s where those really targeted exercises like you do in physical therapy can come in. There’s this phrase the PTs I work with use that goes, “motion is lotion.”

But then if you think back to all those other factors we just talked about, tension, stress, you know, posture, sensitization, inflammation, we know that movement can be really supportive for all those things. And you know, movement helps with stress and tension. Movement helps with mental health. Movement might help you with the way you’re holding yourself. Movement can help you reduce inflammation.

Even that sensitization concept that one is a little bit maybe harder to wrap your head around, if you haven’t thought about it too much. Movement can allow us to sort of gently nudge into that pain and then tell our brain, hey, this movement isn’t dangerous. You can back off with the pain. I’m okay doing this. You don’t have to send those signals quite as as strong as you’ve been sending them.

Virginia

Oh, that’s fascinating.

Anna

Yeah. So it’s like exercise, yes, ideally, it’s going to strengthen and improve mobility, which should reduce pain, but it can improve all of these other factors as well.

I do want to say something specifically about back pain, though, because back pain is tricky. And I want to go back to that Casey Johnston article that we were talking about. She notes, correctly, that there’s a sort of widespread idea that core work is the answer to back pain. We’ve all heard that if your back hurts, probably your core is weak. It can be true. It isn’t necessarily true. The research is a little surprising, because it seems to find that pretty much all kinds of exercise are helpful for back pain.

So core exercises can certainly improve pain and support posture if you have chronic low back pain. So it’s not necessarily that people are wrong by saying you need to do core work, but Casey is right that core work is not the only way. There’s some really interesting research that says core exercises, strength training, and even aerobic exercise, all have similar benefits for back pain. Which tells me it’s basically like, again, movement optimism. It’s better to move your body for back pain than not move your body. And it almost doesn’t matter what you’re doing. And I think it’s sort of like really goes back to pain being multifactorial, and exercise, kind of no matter what you’re doing, can really support all of those factors.

Virginia

So just to drill in a little deeper for folks who struggle with this, if you’re in an acute flare up of back pain, we’re not saying, go lift a 40-pound weight. But the idea that “because I’m someone who gets acute back pain, I shouldn’t do this type of movement,” that’s what we’re trying to kind of push back against.

Anna

Yes, exactly. In the moment of acute back pain, there are things that you can tap into here, things like trying to stay as relaxed as you can, taking deep breaths, even just telling yourself, I’m okay, it’s okay, I don’t have to be scared. I’ll get through this. Like, those kinds of messages can actually like, be really powerful.

But it can be really hard to navigate. Like, okay, I know I should move. What does that actually mean? What can I do? What should I do? I don’t want to overdo it, and I totally understand that. And I think that that is, you know, I’ll say semi-unfortunately, where a PT comes in, because I know PT can be, it can be hard to access.

Virginia

But it’s a game changer when you can find a good PT.

Anna

Yeah, if you can find a good PT, it is super helpful, and they can help you navigate the do’s and don’ts and again, I don’t really want to like frame movement as safe versus unsafe, but just like, how reduced does your pain need to be for you to start pushing into it a little bit, nudging into that pain? I think there are scales of one to ten that PTs will use. Like, okay, if you’re an eight to ten, like, probably just resting, taking some deep breaths, maybe some very gentle stretches, is the way to go. But then beyond that, they’ll give you some guidance for how much to try and how far to go. But I do think just generally reframing rest may not be best, movement may be supportive. That can be really helpful.

Virginia

Yeah, it is so helpful. And again, it just feels like one of those things that you’re like, well, I’ve just been told this backwards. I think it comes back to the way we’re taught to equate movement with body size and shape as opposed to function, and how that underserves us.

Any other fun fitness trends, myths, or anything else where you’re like, “Could we please be done with this already!” that you want to talk about before we wrap up?

Anna

I don’t know if it’s fun. There’s this social media trend that I think of as “the actually trend.” Which is basically experts, whether they’re self-styled experts or legitimate experts, going around and letting you know that “everything you’ve heard about X or Y is wrong. These exercises are garbage. If you’re not doing these exercises, you’re wasting your time. Anyone who says this is wrong.”

And I think that this is generally well intentioned. I know where it comes from, because I sometimes get that instinct myself. I see bad information, and I’m like, ooh, I want to correct this. I want to go out there and say, “actually, this is wrong!” But I think what it results in, especially when we’re talking about specific modalities of exercise, is confusion and discouragement for people.

Because if somebody is doing an activity that they like or they feel proud about doing, and somebody is like, kind of shitting on it, then it can make them feel really unconfident, less optimistic about movement, less sure of themselves.

Virginia

Is it worth doing? Am I wasting my time?

Anna

And it’s sort of like the abs thing in that, it leaves people kind of vulnerable. Maybe they’re more likely to buy something or hit subscribe, because they’re like oh, I thought this was right, but it’s wrong.

Virginia

Oh, I think it’s 100 percent diet culture. Even though I see anti-diet creators doing it too, sometimes, I think it’s rooted in is diet culture. The whole business model of diet culture is telling you that you can’t be right about any of this. You don’t know how to eat, you don’t know how to move your body. You need to invest in this other system that’s going to tell you all the rules.

So it’s very much that same model of “everything you thought about this was wrong,” and now we’re going to tell you the right way to have a body. And it just undercuts people’s ability to be authorities on their own bodies.

Anna

Exactly. And that’s what my work comes down to. I want people to have the tools that they need to feel more confident and more capable moving. And I get that instinct too, it’s a very click-y concept. But I don’t want to get followers or subscribers because people are feeling really unsure of themselves or ashamed or confused.

I feel like I’m constantly saying: Don’t let what’s optimal get in the way of what’s sustainable. And what I mean by that is, of course, it’s really important to look at research and listen to experts and know what’s effective, what’s most supportive of our well-being. But there’s also a limit to that, because when it comes to exercise, most people aren’t doing it. Most people aren’t doing it at all. And the people who are doing it aren’t doing, technically, “enough” of it. I think there’s a stat that, like, about 75% of adults do not meet physical activity guidelines. Because it’s really hard! No one has time or energy to exercise. For parents or caregivers, exercise requires all these systemic supports that we don’t have in our culture. It’s really hard to take care of yourself.

So I want to share messages about helping people get active and stay active, period, in whatever way will allow them to just keep doing it. Yes, there are some things that are going to be more important for heart health and bone density and all those other good things. But the important thing is to move. Moving is better than not moving. If you can do a little bit more movement than you were before, that’s good. Whatever is going to allow you to do it long term is great. So I don’t want to “actually,” people.

Virginia

I’ll often get reader questions like, “Do we really need to do whatever many minutes per week of movement?” whatever those gold standards are, and every time I look into it, it’s sort of like, well, sure, there’s some research to support that—but if nobody can achieve this gold standard in their life, then how is is useful? How is that relevant to anybody? We should be focused on making whatever we can make doable for folks.

Anna

Exactly. I also think that the “actually” thing can can lead to some very confusing trends. And one, one good example of this, I think, is the Kegel backlash.

Virginia

People started to hate Kegels for some reason!

Anna

Exactly, and it’s like, why did we swing so far the other way?

Virginia

Why did we get militantly against Kegels?

Anna

We’ve made a lot of leaps and bounds in the last couple of decades in pelvic health, both in terms of the knowledge that we have the practitioners that are available. And the stigma has kind of gone away, you can talk about pelvic health and your symptoms and whatever, which is all great.

But it used to be that the main pelvic floor condition anyone knew about was stress incontinence, which came from what weak pelvic floor muscles, and so you would get Kegels like, do your Kegels. That was just like the blanket, if you have a pelvic floor problem, you need to do Kegels. And now we’ve made a lot of progress. We know that some conditions, especially like urinary urgency, pelvic pain, often stem from too much pelvic floor tension, which means Kegels could backfire and worsen those symptoms.

Virginia

Okay. So I get some of the resistance to Kegels if they’ve been underserving folks.

Anna

And it’s very important to get that knowledge out there, because you don’t want to make those symptoms worse. But then you get this telephone effect where, just, Kegels are bad. No one should be doing them. Anyone who mentions Kegels doesn’t know what they’re talking about, which is also not true. Just like other musculoskeletal conditions, it’s multifactorial. The idea that this is good, this is bad. I know what you need, needs to be taken with a grain of salt. But when it comes to the pelvic floor, especially like the only person who really knows what your pelvic floor needs is a DPT, like a pelvic floor PT or OT, who has done an assessment on you. The real message should be, pelvic floor symptoms are treatable. You need to see a specialist to deal with them.

Virginia

That’s really helpful. That is so interesting. I think it is just another example of how the diet culture framing and marketing gets mixed in with the message. When content creators are selling a course or selling whatever, it’s just hard to separate that from from they may have some really good information to share, but if they’re leaning into that actually everything you thought was wrong mindset, like, that’s the marketing. That’s probably not entirely true, and that’s helpful for us all to keep in mind.

Any other bad fitness trends on your mind?

Anna

There’s something that that I think is really tricky, which is this concept of movement feeling good, this idea that you should find movement that feels great, or that you feel joyful doing. Which I think is a lovely concept, and I think people have really good intentions when they say this kind of thing. I think it’s really helpful to an extent, especially if you’re someone who’s working on building a more positive, less punishing relationship with exercise. Tapping into something that you actually feel good doing and what helps your body feel good can be super helpful.

But there are a couple of caveats to this that I think are important. One is that for some people, movement generally does not feel good, whether they have chronic pain, they’ve experienced trauma, they have a disability or some kind of illness, or for many other reasons. Exercise may not ever be something that feels good or joyful for some folks. And so this idea that it needs to feel good canexclude a lot of people. When maybe, if you’re in that boat, you can still get a lot of benefits from finding movement that you can just kind of tolerate consistently.

Virginia

Yeah, where it’s okay, but not great. There’s something very ableist “movement should be joyful.” And sort of controlling? We don’t all have to like the same things! I’m someone for whom it’s just always more joyful to read a book on the couch.

Anna

I do think if you’re in that boat where you have some sort of condition where movement feels very uncomfortable, it can really help to find some guidance. I wish I could give you a really specific resource, but it’s very condition specific, I think. Try to get a little help, whether it’s an online program or a trainer that you can work with, even just for a couple of sessions, just to say, “Everything kind of feels bad. I know I need to move, so what’s the bare minimum that I need to do, or what can I do?”

The other big caveat for me as a trainer about “joyful movement,” is that if you’re looking to make gains in terms of muscle mass, bone density, cardiovascular health, it can be very helpful to get comfortable with discomfort. You are going to need to push yourself.

I have recently started presenting a monthly strength training workout, and I want people to engage in progressive overload, where each week they add—well maybe not each week, hopefully each week, it depends on the person. But maybe they add a little bit of weight. They’re able to do a little more. The only way you can really do that is if you push. And by the end of your set, your muscles are kind of shaking, and you can barely finish that final couple of reps. That is where you get stronger.

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10 months ago · 23 likes · 13 comments · Anna Maltby

I talk about this a lot because I’m not a big cardio person, and I really should be. We all should be probably doing cardio, even though it sucks. No shade if you’re a cardio lover. But if you want to improve your resting heart rate, your VO2 Max, those markers of cardiovascular wellness, you also need to do a progressive training approach where you’re pushing yourself to whether it’s run or walk or bike or whatever, a little faster, a little farther. You need to keep loading your cardiovascular system and challenging yourself so that you can see those improvements that you’re looking for.

That might not always feel very good, but I do think it goes back to like what we were talking about earlier, noticing what are the other improvements that you feel throughout the day? Maybe your workout feels like, oh my god. That kind of sucked. That was really hard. I was struggling. I was quaking, all that stuff. But maybe later that day, you notice you’ve got a little bit more energy, a little more pep in your step, you’re carrying yourself a little bit differently.

Whatever you can do to tap into those benefits of how you feel as a result of the workout, and build that connection. That’s what’s going to help you understand that that sort of momentary discomfort is worth it.

So I never want to go into it being like, “I’m going to punish myself. I’m going to work so hard because I have to, because I need to make up for something.” None of that. That’s not what I’m talking about. But, you know, should every workout feel wonderful? I’m not sure. I don’t think so.

Virginia

I’m doing your strength training progressive workouts, and there’s something you said in it about, like, maybe as you’re lifting heavier weights, this move that we’re doing for a minute will only be a 45 second move for you, because it’s so hard to finish. That was really helpful to my brain. Because I think those of us with a lot of good girl, perfectionist conditioning, cab sometimes get trapped in, “I can only do the workout if I can do it right.” And so then that keeps me from pushing myself more. Do you know what I’m saying? Because I’m like, I need to be able to execute this flawlessly somehow. And the idea that part of progress is like, it might be harder and a little messy, was really helpful for me to understand that it’s not like a failing if it’s getting harder.

Anna

Yes, exactly. And I think there’s also, there’s so many levers we can pull to make things a little bit more challenging, whether it’s the position, the weight, the speed, the length of the set, you know, there’s a lot of different ways to make things more challenging.

This goes back to Pilates and something I talk about a lot there, which is you don’t have to do the hardest possible version of an exercise to get something out of it. In fact, for most people I would say, definitely myself included, I’m not going to choose the hardest version of every exercise because I’m forcing it, and I’m not necessarily using the muscles that I’m supposed to be using, because I’m compensating. Whether it’s I’m using my neck muscles to lift my head instead of my abdominals or whatever it might be. Maybe some of the progressive overload that you’re doing in a strength training context is I’m starting with a different version of the exercise that allow me to complete the movement, and maybe I work my way up to a slightly different version of the exercise, but there’s going to be a little discomfort there, like you’re not going to get there without experiencing some some positive, productive discomfort.

Virginia

Anna, do you have a Butter for us today?

Anna

Okay, yes, I have two Butters.

Virginia

Yay. Love multiple Butters.

Anna

I had to look up the name of these things because they’re like just these little adhesive, rubbery dots that you could stick on a cabinet or like a door frame, or even a toilet so things close silently.

Virginia

Oh, so your children can’t slam the toilet lid up and down all the time. Wow.

Anna

Okay, so I think there’s called some places call them cabinet bumpers or door buffer pads or sound dampening door buffers.

Virginia

Wow.

Anna

So it’s both, like, if your kid goes to the bathroom in the middle of the night, it’s not going to wake you up because they’re slamming the toilet seat.

Virginia

Totally.

Anna

So that’s amazing. But then also I even notice if I’m closing a door or or lifting the toilet lid or whatever during the day and it’s just silent. I think I’m a little bit of a sensitive person to sound and stimulation, so having having those little, tiny experiences throughout the day be very quiet is so calming. It’s very nice.

Virginia

That’s delightful.

Anna

I always have to say, I don’t love Amazon. So if you can go to your local hardware store or dollar store, I bet they’ll have them.

The other thing that has been really bringing me joy lately is I’m so much more into, like, holiday decor now that I have children than I ever was before. I have a little flock of bats taking off from my from the top of my TV during Halloween season. And they’re so delightful. And I just took them down, and the wall was looking very sad. So I started making paper snowflakes with my daughter. And I hadn’t done that since I was a kid, so had to Google, how do you make a paper snowflake? Like how do you fold the thing and cut it. And I discovered that there are all these little patterns, and I’m not crafty at all, but it will show you. Here’s the little folded triangle, and here’s the little pattern to draw on it, and then you cut it out, that beautiful, amazing shape. So being not crafty at all, I find this so satisfying. So now we have a little growing snowstorm above our TV of DIY snowflakes.

Virginia

We did that one year and put them all over our front window. And I’m like, why did we stop doing that? We should do that again! That was really very cheap and fun, and magical. And like, you can do five, or you can do fifty. You can, like, stop whenever, like, it’s very imperfect craft. You can just kind of do what moves you, which I love.

Anna

Yeah, like, oh, I have five minutes after I finished cleaning up the kitchen, and I’m just gonna make a snowflake. It’s cute. It’s not like me at all. And, I like that too.

Virginia

All right. It’s interesting you brought up toilets, because I’m gonna bring up toilets as well. I have a very practical Butter that’s really a PSA, which is this: If you are a household that currently has a toilet plunger, you can throw it in the garbage. Because what you really need is a toilet snake.

This has changed my life. I’m gonna just put my children on blast, they use an excessive amount of toilet paper. Like truly excessive. We have tried many strategies for not using so much. I’ve used guilt about climate change, like you’re killing the trees. But it is what it is. They are excessive toilet paper users, so clogging toilets is something that happens with some frequency in my house. So then I was like, okay, I’m going to start charging you guys for the plumber visits, because plumbers are not cheap! And I would try plunging, but it wouldn’t work. I finally bought this toilet snake off Amazon, but absolutely get it at your hardware store. And it’s so much more effective than a plunger for breaking up a clogged toilet. Game changer.

And it’s weirdly satisfying to use, too, I have to say.

Anna

Wow, I’m not gonna lie, Virginia, that’s a little gross, but I’m super happy for you.

Virginia

I maybe should have included a content warning.

Anna

I feel super lucky that I’ve never had to plunge a toilet. Maybe we just have really good toilets?

Virginia

I can tell you I do not. The last plumber who came to my house was like, “your toilets are terrible” and wanted to replace all of them. And I was like, I could spend hundreds of dollars, if not more, replacing all my toilets. Or I could buy this $30 toilet snake.

It’s this long metal coil thing, and it snakes down into the drain. And it’s actually less gross to use than a plunger, too—I’m sorry we’re really like in it now—but you stand further back, so there’s not the same splashing concerns. You just turn the handle on the snake. You get it all the way down, and you turn the handle, and it just burrows its way through the clog. I don’t know how it does it, but it does it, and it’s less gross to me to use than a toilet plunger, and weirdly satisfying. So that is what I have to say.

Anna

A lot of toilet optimization today. Your toilet needs to work for you.

Virginia

It’s something we’re dealing with all the time, especially as parents. Kids and toilets are kind of a nightmare combination sometimes. They’re just not great at it.

Alright, that’s probably the grossest Butter I’ve ever given but here we are! It was time. And I felt like you were someone I could do it with. We’re making your toilets silent and unclogged. And really, that’s all I want out of a toilet.

Anna

It’s heaven.

Virginia

Well, thank you for indulging that. This was so much fun. Tell folks where they can find you and how we can support your work.

Anna

I am on Substack at

How to Move

I also just recently started up a public Instagram for that, which is_howtomove. My my personal Instagram is really only for people I know, so don’t, don’t be offended if I don’t accept your follow request. I’m a little shy about it.

Virginia

Anna, thank you so much for being here. This was really delightful.

The Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith (follow me on Instagram) and Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus, and Big Undies.

The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe.

Our theme music is by Farideh.

Tommy Harron is our audio engineer.

Thanks for listening and for supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism!

Welcome to Indulgence Gospel After Dark! It's time for your December Extra Butter! 

Today, we’re talking about bellies—and how we’ve been taught to dress them. You need this conversation if you have feelings about:

Spanx

Horizontal stripes

The Millennial structured camisole era + long, flowy tops

Always tucking in your shirt/never tucking in your shirt

And so much more.

If you are already an Extra Butter subscriber, you’ll have this entire episode in your podcast feed and access to the entire transcript in your inbox and on the Burnt Toast Patreon. To get all of the links and resources mentioned in this episode, as well as a complete transcript, visit our show page.

Otherwise, to hear the whole conversation or read the whole transcript, you'll need to join Extra Butter. It's just $99 per year, and is the hands down best way to keep Burnt Toast an ad- and sponsor-free space. 

PS. Don't forget to order Fat Talk: Parenting In the Age of Diet Culture! Get your signed copy now from Split Rock Books (they ship anywhere in the USA). You can also order it from your independent bookstore, or from Barnes & Noble, Amazon, Target, Kobo or anywhere you like to buy books. (Or get the UK edition or the audiobook!) 

Disclaimer: Virginia and Corinne are humans with a lot of informed opinions. They are not nutritionists, therapists, doctors, or any kind of healthcare providers. The conversation you're about to hear and all of the advice and opinions they give are just for entertainment, information, and education purposes only. None of this is a substitute for individual medical or mental health advice.

CREDITS

The Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith (follow me on Instagram) and Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus and Big Undies—subscribe for 20% off.

The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe.

Our theme music is by Farideh.

Tommy Harron is our audio engineer.

Thanks for listening and for supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism!

Virginia

So people say “dressing for your belly,” but it’s dressing to disappear your belly, really.

Corinne

To camouflage it.

Virginia

Yes. And of all the fat fashion rules that we’re indoctrinated with, the belly-based dressing rules are for sure, the ones that have done the biggest number on me over the years. I don’t know how you feel about it?

Corinne

Probably true. It is just kind of hard to find clothes that fit right if you have a belly. It feels like most clothes are not designed for that.

Virginia

What we’re saying is, this is an episode for our apple shapes. Pear-shaped listeners, you’re also welcome. Anyone who doesn’t want to define their body by a fruit shape—thank you women’s magazines—is also welcome. But yeah. Our conversation today is about the persecution of the apple-shaped body specifically, and the ways that women’s fashion, in particular, is not made for that body shape.

Corinne

Honestly, I think men’s fashion, too.

Virginia

Wait, are men supposed to have an hourglass? I’m confused.

Corinne

No, but I think men are supposed to be wider at the top and narrower down, so if you have a belly a lot of times clothes don’t fit right.

Virginia

Ohhh, interesting. That makes sense. And then a lot of nonbinary brands tend to cut for a thinner androgynous fit, which is also not this body.

Corinne

So across the board, it’s bad.

Virginia

Yes. So we threw this out to all of you and you told us all of the rules you’ve learned to follow for what you can and cannot wear if you have a visible belly. We’re going to talk through it all and process and, I think, release some of these garbage ideas.

Do you have a sense of when these rules entered your brain?

Corinne

The strongest memory I have about it is being in high school, because low rise jeans were really in. So I was wearing a lot of low-rise jeans, and not crop tops, but just normal length shirts, but my belly would hang out a little bit. And my mom would always be like, “Oh, your belly is hanging out.” Like, “do you want your belly hanging out?” So I was just becoming aware of my belly “hanging out.”

Virginia

I think mine is high school, too. I can remember getting a dress for a homecoming dance that was very, very fitted—what we would call bodycon today. And I was a thin teenager, but I had the rough shape that I have today. And so it was this moment of realizing that on me, that dress was not flat on the front. It wasn’t flat because I had boobs, but it also wasn’t flat because my stomach. And being really self conscious and sort of horrified. I think that was one of my first moments of realizing that. And this is a total thin privilege statement, but it was one of my first moments of realizing that just because a dress looked a certain way on a model, didn’t mean it would achieve that on my body. Like, I hadn’t quite grasped that disconnect before. Tthis doesn’t look on me like the way it’s supposed it’s “supposed” to look, and it’s specifically because of my stomach.

Corinne

Bellies can be kind of a good example of how fatphobia can also be a problem for thin people, because even if you’re thin, wearing straight sizes, but you have a belly, you can still experience some type of faphobia.

Virginia

Definitely. I mean, it dovetails into the whole “mistaken for pregnant” conversation, which we’ve talked about. I think a lot of the anxiety about the visible belly is rooted in that “I will look pregnant when I’m not pregnant” fear. Which when you unpack it—why is that such a terrifying concept? I mean, because of anti-fatness, of course. That feels like this worst case scenario for people, when it’s really just an honest mistake someone might be making about your body because we don’t normalize body diversity enough.

Corinne

Yeah, very true. Do you personally have any sort of belly dressing rules that you are still adhering to, or that still you still think about?

Virginia

I mean, I have to say, as we were putting the list together, there were a lot. There are a few of these I am proud to say I have completely divested from. And there are more that I am still a work in progress on. And I’m just going to be real about that.

But I think the big one for me is the idea that your belly can be visible through clothes. There is still this thing in my brain that’s like, “I have to somehow erase it!” in the way I get dressed, which leads to a lot of what we’re going to talk about. Not that anything I wear ever erases the fact that I’m a fat woman with a belly. People can see.

Corinne

It’s so complicated, too, because sometimes your belly is really visible but it’s because something doesn’t really fit you right! So it’s hard to, like, completely disentangle the the rules from comfort, I think.

Virginia

Definitely. Yes. And I will say I think one evolution I’ve made is that I am no longer willing to be uncomfortable in service of erasing my belly. That is not interesting to me. And that, I think, is a real big moment of growth. I am going to take that win.

What about you? Are there things that you do or don’t wear because of this?

Corinne

I just recently was brushing up against one because the jeans from the Universal Standard Jordan Underwood Collaboration have front patch pockets—you know what I mean?

And I usually hate those. There are a few reasons. I just feel like when you’re pulling pants up over your belly and then they have a pocket on top, it looks weird. I also don’t like how it feels. And if they don’t fit exactly right, the lines of the pockets will curve or bend. I almost will never buy pants that have front patch pockets like that.

@selfiefay@Universal Standard @Jordan Underwood COULD NOT BE MORE EXCITED ABOUT THESE CLOTHES! So cute.

Virginia

I get that. Also just because they’re another piece of clothing mental load you don’t need. You know it’s a detail that you’re going to have thoughts about.

Corinne

They just don’t look the same when you have a belly. It feels like the pockets should be lower, or I don’t know. But I have been wearing those pants, and I feel fine about them. So, who knows. But I still think most of the time I will not be wearing those.

The other one I think will come up later, but I never want to be wearing something that doesn’t go over my belly. Like, I never want to wear pants or a bathing suit bottom that doesn’t cover my belly. And part of me is like, am I hiding? Am I trying to hide my belly? Or is it just more comfortable to me that way?

Virginia

Yes, I really want to get into this, because this came up a lot. And I have the same thing. I like a high waist so I can feel all tucked in. And it’s really hard to untangle that one because I think some of it is the erasing thing, but some of it is that it feels comfy, cozy. It feels more secure!

Corinne

I also think if I wore my pants below my belly, my shirts wouldn’t cover my belly most of the time. So it just feels practical.

Virginia

Yeah, you would be cold. Or, like, you don’t want to share that part of your body with the world.

I should say, before we start getting into the nitty gritty of the rules: We are not doing this episode to make anyone feel bad if they’re still clinging to one of these rules. Because I think we do this because they serve us. This is all survival and diet culture stuff. So we’re going to unpack what is anti-fat, what is not useful. Not useful, as in, this actually doesn’t even erase your belly. We’re going to talk about some of the silliness of it, but like—it’s okay.

Corinne

And it’s complicated. It is a combination of things. Not wanting people to see your belly, and also wanting your shirt to cover your pants.

Virginia

This might be a holdover from being pregnant, but I sometimes feel like it like helps my back pain? That’s not quite right, but there’s a support thing you get with a compression waistband, not a super tight one, but there’s a little support you get. I just feel a little sturdier in it.

Corinne

When will people just start designing for this? Can we get clothes that are designed to help us?

Virginia

Yeah, and not just flatten, but actually support? That would be such a great reframing.

On the front patch pockets thing, it reminded me another one I have is button flies.

Corinne

Oh yeah, if it’s open?

Virginia

I recently ordered some jeans that I did not realize had a button fly and they went right back. I tried them on for a second, and I was like, NO.

Corinne

Where you can see the button fly? But sometimes they cover it.

Virginia

But even if it’s covered, it’s not going to lie flat on a round stomach.

Corinne

For me, it’s if the button fly is uncovered and you can see the the denim kind of like pulling around the buttons. I had some jeans like that. And I was like, who did this? But I I don’t mind if it’s covered.

Virginia

Nothing is going to lie flat because my stomach is not flat, right? But there’s this programming in my brain that says I should be choosing clothes that increase the flatness of my stomach. And so a button fly is “adding bulk.” And it’s going to stick out in a weird way. And not lie smoothly. So why would I take that on? It also doesn’t seem comfortable. I don’t need more things pressing on me. Metal buttons? Like, no, thank you.

So we’re all works in progress. And this a safe space to discuss all of this.

All right, let’s talk about my favorite rule, which, let me tell you, think at least 50 people named as the number one rule in their brains about dressing for your belly.

Even giving you a side view to show how cute horizontal stripes are! Outfit details.

1. No horizontal stripes.

Corinne

You’ve definitely overcome this.

Virginia

I have overcome it! And I want to say to everyone, join me in the Promised Land. It is great. Horizontal stripes are so cute, and you get to wear fun colors and look sort of French. Or just tell yourself that you look French. Why would you not want that? And I just never think about them anymore in relation to my stomach, which is interesting.

Corinne

Yeah, I feel like I’ve always kind of embraced horizontal stripes, but I have had people say to me, “You shouldn’t wear horizontal stripes.”

Virginia

Just why?

Corinne

I don’t know. And I feel like vertical stripes look weird.

Virginia

Well, and some people were like, “I’m also told not to wear vertical stripes,” because they’re not going to stay straight on a fat body. Definitely not. You’re going to have a wavy line.

Corinne

That’s the patch pockets thing, too, kind of.

Virginia

But who told us that our bodies had to be rulers? Like, what? Even a thin person has dimension. This is so silly. Oh, my God. If you’re going to break no other rules on this list, I really encourage you to get yourself a cute horizontal striped t-shirt and thank me later.

I did baby steps into it. I wore them as a base layer at first. So, like I’m wearing one today under a sweatshirt. I would wear it without a sweatshirt now, but so it was like you would see the stripes under a sweatshirt, or under overalls or under a jumpsuit. You can kind of increase your comfort level, and then pretty soon you’ll be like, “Oh yeah, I could just wear horizontal stripes all the time.”

Corinne

I think the main point here is that the pattern on your clothes isn’t giving people an optical illusion about the size of your body.

Virginia

No. I think you see me as the same size whether or not there are stripes on my shirt. So I think it’s an exposure therapy one. And we can also link to my favorite striped top, which is from Nettle’s Tale, which is a lovely size inclusive brand. (Post-recording: Sorry, it’s sold out right now! But they do have this great stripe.)

Corinne

The next rule I feel is kind of similar:

2. Don’t wear white.

Virginia

This came from Lauren Leavell, who then wrote, “You know I wear a ton of white.” Because Lauren is like, “I give no fucks.” I don’t think I had ever heard this one.

Corinne

Oh, really?!? I definitely heard light colors make you look bigger and dark colors make you look smaller.

Virginia

A lot of people said “wear black.” But I didn’t have this one in my brain ever. I just don’t wear white after Labor Day because I’m from Connecticut, and we have a moral code. But Dacy has worked with me to divest from that a little bit. Not white jeans yet, but I’m getting there.

Corinne

I definitely heard this one. I think more so in the like, wear dark colors and then people won’t know.

Virginia

Well, it feels similar, like you’re actually not fooling anyone. And if you like white or other colors or stripes, just enjoy them.

The next one that came up over and over is:

3. Wear a long flowy top.

The long, flowy top has a real stranglehold on the millennial psyche. I have purchased so many fucking long flowy tops, and I think I’ve finally gotten rid of most of them. I did want to direct us to a reel from Ashley Dorough, who is a plus size fashion influencer. And I really like Ashley’s style, we both really like her style, but she does do a lot of the long flowy tops.

Corinne

When I saw this, I was like, I’ve definitely heard this, and I’m also sort of confused about what a long flowy top is. Because it seems like sometimes it’s just an oversized button down, and sometimes it’s a tunic?

Virginia

I think it definitely gets into tunic territory. I feel like the classic example is, do you know that brand Daniel Rainn?

A Daniel Rainn top on ThredUp

Corinne

No.

Virginia

Look up Daniel Rainn tops and you’re going to see what I mean. It’s like a floral chiffon, sort of floaty top no visible waist, very peasant top vibes. And you’re going to wear it with your skinny jeans and ballet flats or ankle booties or whatever. Maybe a long cardigan. I feel like this is peak last 10 years of millennial dressing, especially Millennial Mom dressing.

Corinne

Yeah, this also feels like very Lane Bryant, like the plus size fashion that you’re forced into because it’s all that exists.

Virginia

And it’s interesting in this reel from Ashley, a lot of the outfits she’s wearing are pretty cute. But to start the reel, she’s wearing a fitted top and jeans that really show her belly. And she kind of gestures to her belly, and then she shows you all these outfits that are very “belly disguising” with these longer sweatshirts. But I actually think the outfit she starts out in is totally cute and she looks great in it! And it’s interesting that it’s not quite a before, but it’s definitely a vibe of “this isn’t how I’d leave the house” or something.

Corinne

This is an interesting one, too, with comfort. Are you wearing the longer shirt because you just don’t want to have to worry? Like maybe you’re wearing a long flowy top because if you don’t wear one you’ll be constantly pulling on your shirt.

Virginia

I think that’s real. Whenever I do wear something more cropped, I’m very conscious of where it’s situated all day.

And I feel like, again, this is one of those “to avoid getting mistaken for pregnant…” tips that has definitely resulted in me being mistaken for pregnant because a lot of these long, flowy tops start to look like maternity wear.

Corinne

For sure.

Virginia

And then it’s aggravating because you’re like, “But I went out of my way to camouflage!” and here I am correctly identified as a fat person but misidentified as a pregnant person? It’s a tricky one. I mean, I definitely get the emotional support of the long flowy top, but I’ve started to veer more towards, like maybe it’s an open cardigan, but I’m going to have a croptop underneath, or a tucked in shirt underneath, or something just to play around with it a little bit

Millennial Mom cardigan but visible belly! Outfit details.

Okay, the next one really spoke to my soul. This came from Linda, who is @littlewingedpotatoes on Instagram. She wrote:

4. “Wear a millennial structured cami under everything.”

Oh my God, I wore a camisole under everything for so many fucking years!

Corinne

This was huge.

Virginia

The tyranny of the camisole!

Corinne

You wore a bra, a cami, and then a shirt.

Virginia

So many clothes. How did we do that? My perimenopausal self could never. I used to wear a sweater that was like a crewneck, a full-body-covering sweater, and I would still wear a camisole underneath that.

Corinne

And some people wore the camisoles that went down.

Virginia

And they had the lace on the bottom! So you would show the lace on the bottom, like they would be quite long, almost covering your butt, to show that under. And it was a way of advertising, like, “Don’t worry, I have worn the camisole.”

Corinne

I know. What was that about? What is that camouflaging?

Virginia

I think it was like not quite Spanx? I mean, we’re going to get to Spanx. But it was, I’m making an effort towards smoothing it out. I think it was very adjacent to the smooth lines thing. I owned so many of those camisoles, Jesus Christ.

Oh, I’m angry about it now. I mean, why did we think we had to do that?

Corinne

I’m curious if kids are still doing that. Has that come back?

Virginia

I’m Googling and I am seeing something about “When Gen Z discovered layering tank tops.” We don’t need to bring this back.

Corinne

And I guess it also could have been a thing where then your belly is not hanging out if you’re wearing low rise jeans.

Virginia

Yeah, I think it was a way of coping with the low rise jean.

Corinne

Giving you overlap between the the low rise pants.

Virginia

It was absolutely preventing visible belly and trying to make your belly look flatter somehow, through the magic of whatever material those were made out of. Oh, that’s a really rough one. It’s still with us to some extent. I am wearing a tank top under a sweatshirt right now, I admit. But the sweatshirt ends up low, so I felt like I needed an underneath layer. It’s more about boob coverage, but it’s not visible underneath. Its not hanging out the bottom.

Corinne

Whatever you say!

Virginia

Whatever you need to tell yourself, Virginia!

5. Always wear Spanx

Corinne

There was so much Spanx trauma. There was a comment in the chat that I really liked where someone was like, “you’re supposed to wear Spanx so the clothes look better on top, but also the clothes would stick to them in weird ways.” And that makes me think of the camisoles too, I feel your shirt would kind of stick to it?

Virginia

Yep, totally. Unless you were wearing the flowy chiffon top over your camisole, which you definitely needed because also the chiffon flowy tops are all see through. That’s another reason for the camisole. Somebody on Instagram wrote, “Spanx, live on my body and I pay them rent. Can’t kick the habit.” And I was like, oh man, I want you to kick it.

This is really about, clothes needing to appear completely smooth on your body. No lumps, no roundness, no “muffin top,” which is a heinous term but certainly a fear that lives in our many of our brains. And again, where did we learn that our bodies need to be mannequin smooth? Like, even if you’re larger, it has to be smooth.

Corinne

I could never get past how uncomfortable shapewear was.

Virginia

So uncomfortable. I definitely did torture myself with it for a bunch of years for different things. I’m really glad to no longer have that be on my radar. I mean, I think too, it’s related to the fear of visible panty lines, which also is a really weird rule to have. Like, we do all mostly wear underwear. I mean, maybe you don’t, and that’s your choice. That’s fine. But is it the worst thing if people know you’re wearing underwear? Is this actually the breach of the social contract?

Corinne

I’ve heard people talk about visible belly outline, too.

Virginia

There’s an influencer I want to talk about, Tori Block, who does a lot of “dressing for your belly” content. And I would say about 80 percent of her reels feature, if not shapewear, some kind of body suit. The clothes are very smoothing-focused. Her whole thing is like, “You can have a belly and wear anything you want if you make your body totally smooth.”

Corinne

It seems like the formula for a lot of her content is showing her belly and then pulling her clothes up over it.

Virginia

Which is interesting to me, because I honestly think she thinks she’s creating fat positive content in doing that. I think she thinks she’s empowering women to get dressed and enjoy wearing sexy clothes and all of that. But her whole formula is, look how can I erase my belly! I’m going to show you it at the beginning so you know I’m just like you and look at this magic trick. And that isn’t fat positive!

Corinne

The headline for this video is “belly confident street wear.” First she’s showing you her belly hanging over her underwear. And then the whole thing is “get black sweatpants and pull them up over your belly.”

Virginia

Yes, and wear a black bodysuit underneath.

Corinne

Which, again, don’t wear white. The first sweatpants are white or gray. And then they have to come up to the smallest part of your body,

Virginia

Yeah, this no visible belly thing is really tough. I love those Beyond Yoga joggers that I talk about all the time, so I just bought their bootcut leggings, and I love them. I’m wearing them right now, so I’m embracing it, but when I first put them on I did have a moment of, like, oh, right. The cut of this pant versus the joggers does make my belly much more visible. It was interesting, I think, especially because they’re boot cut, and I’m haven’t worn boot cut since the 90s. I was like, “Oh, I don’t know if I’m allowed to wear this anymore?” I had a whole little moment. It’s fine now. But, yeah, the visible belly outline is such an odd fear.

Corinne

That kind of gets to our next rule:

6. Apron bellies can’t wear leggings.

That is definitely one that I have to really think about. Like, why? Because I do kind of feel like I’m not going to go out wearing leggings!

Virginia

Don’t you wear them to the gym and stuff?

Corinne

Yeah, I would wear them to the gym, but you wouldn’t wear them to—

Virginia

To go out to lunch or something?

Corinne

I wouldn’t wear them to go out to lunch, no. I don’t know if it’s the belly, the fatphobia, or I’m just like, “They’re not real pants.” I need to be wearing real pants, you know?

Virginia

I mean, I do think our generation really died on the mountain of “leggings aren’t pants” for a long time. And I think it’s okay to let that go. Leggings can be pants! A lot of this, though, it’s not just the belly. It’s also leggings make your butt more visible. Leggings make your crotch more visible.

Corinne

I do feel kind of naked when I’m wearing them. Like I’m just not wearing enough enough clothing.

Virginia

Which is totally valid and your choice. And, rooted in a culture that tells us that women’s pelvic areas are not okay and should be shied away from. It’s very purity culture feeling.

Corinne

Yeah, although I do feel like the leggings thing probably also applies to men.

Virginia

Fair point, fair point. I don’t know that a lot of men feel free to wear leggings to lunch. We would not judge. We would support. But we would be like, “That is a bold move, sir. You are making a statement. Do we need to teach you about the long flowy top?”

Corinne

Men need to start wearing long flowy tops.

Virginia

I think that’s how I often wear leggings out in the world, is with a longer shirt, on. Like a button down shirt or something.

Corinne

I have a thing with leggings. I will wear bike shorts, but I don’t like wearing leggings.

Corinne wearing Beyond Yoga Bike Shorts & Old Navy top & Birkenstocks

Virginia

But why? Bike shorts arguably show more of your body.

Corinne

I know, that’s what I’m saying. I just don’t like how they like look or feel or something. And I probably will wear them to the gym, but I’m still wearing shorts to the gym, so I don’t know.

Virginia

Interesting.

Corinne

We went through this last year where I was like, “I don’t understand what I’m supposed to wear instead of bike shorts in the cold times.”

Virginia

And we were all like…leggings? Meanwhile, I’m always like,”How do we wear bike shorts?” And you’re like, “The same way you wear leggings.” We have something with this. This is skinny jeans and Birkenstocks all over again. We can’t explain how we learn some of these things.

Corinne

I wore leggings for many years of my life, but right now, I’m just not liking leggings.

Virginia

Do you want to try a bootcut legging with me?

Corinne

Maybe I could be more into that.

7. Controversial advice around tucking shirts.

Virginia

So people are either told to never tuck in shirts and wear the long flowy top, or they are told they absolutely have to tuck in shirts in order to fake a waist. There’s no middle ground, and yet everyone feels like they’re getting this wrong.

Corinne

Yeah. Maybe that’s why so many people ended up doing the half tuck. The half tuck is the long flowy top plus the showing your waist.

Virginia

I did, when the half tuck trend first started, I was like, oh, this is what we do with our long flowy tops. Finally someone made it make sense.

I mean, I wrote a whole piece on where this trend originated. Tan France is a big factor here that you need to really reckon with. And there is a lot of inherent fatphobia. There’s fatphobia in both directions, basically. I think maybe especially if you were once in a smaller body, tucking can feel really scary in a bigger body because it is emphasizing that your waist doesn’t actually get magically super small when you tuck. So, I personally find tucking a good fuck you to fatphobic fashion rules because it’s like making me be like, great, I can do this. I am not afraid of how my body looks with a shirt tucked in. (Good God, none of us should be afraid of that.) But I also understand that for people who feel like they always had to tuck in, being able to wear bigger, baggier things is also liberating. It’s a personal journey.

We Need to Talk About The Millennial Tuck

Virginia Sole-Smith

·

December 5, 2023

Read full story

Corinne

I feel like I never tuck stuff, but more for annoying clothes reasons, like I find it uncomfortable or bunchy or it just comes untucked.

Virginia

Definitely. To sit at your desk with something half tucked in actually starts to feel deeply impractical after a few minutes.

Corinne

Or it’s half-tucked in, and then you go to the bathroom, and then I never re-tuck.

Virginia

It’s so weird what we make ourselves do to get dressed and be in the world!

Midlife crisis crop top from last summer. (Outfit details.)

8. “No crop tops, no visible rolls, keep the belly covered except at the pool, even then high waisted bottoms.”

Virginia

I mean, we already said we both kind of buy into this a little bit. This is one we’re struggling with. I did start to experiment with the crop tops last summer.

Corinne

Yeah, yeah. You’ve been wearing a lot of crop tops.

Virginia

My 11-year-old asked if I was having a midlife crisis, so it was clearly a departure from the norm. She was uncomfortable with it. I was more comfortable. But I definitely will say, I’ve been making myself do it. I like it. I like the look of it. I wouldn’t do a crop top with a low rise pant situation. I do crop tops with high waisted things. So it’s like: Am I cropping or am I just putting the fabric in another part of the outfit? Like, I’m only showing like, an inch or two,

Corinne

I struggle with this one for sure. And I think part of it is I find it uncomfortable.

I’ve also definitely thought, if I was going to wear a crop top, like, maybe I should put self-tanner on my belly. My belly is so white. Or I’ve also thought I need to get a tattoo on my belly, just so it’s less wormy.

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Virginia

I hear that. It’s definitely a trend I’m more comfortable with in the summer where I’m likely to have gotten a little bit of color, although I always wear my sunscreen. I don’t want to discount the fatphobia. But it does feel like with this one, it’s also like deciding how much skin you want to display and who you want to display it for. I think is a sort of core body autonomy thing that we can make space for.

Like, I don’t wear a crop top in every setting. There are situations where I feel like a crop top is super appropriate and I feel great in it, and there’s situations where I would definitely not do that. And I think that’s valid.

Corinne

Yeah, that’s totally fair. I can accept that I have a belly, I can show it at the pool in a bathing suit, but I don’t always want to have my belly out at the grocery store. I can accept that I have a round, fat belly, but it’s so white. It’s like day glo. There are some parts that are okay, and there’s some parts I’m still struggling with.

Virginia

It feels like a good point to say, you can aesthetically not be totally on board with an aspect of your body and still be a firm advocate for fat rights. And believe your body has value and should take up space in the world. It’s always useful to put a little space between what do we find beautiful and what do we find valuable. Beauty is actually not what we’re fighting for here. It is great to broaden the definition of beauty and include our bellies, but it’s also okay if you’re like, my body is valuable and should be treated with respect. And I don’t find every part of it aesthetically pleasing at all times.

Corinne

Totally, yeah. And just because I want to keep my belly covered, I’m not offended if anyone else doesn’t.

Virginia

We support you in your crop tops and low rise jeans if you want to Britney Spears it out in 2024, we’re behind you supporting that.

9. “Empire waste with ruching until I die.”

That’s a quote from a reader. And I want you to let one of them go. I don’t know that you need to be wearing an empire waist with ruching at all times.

Corinne

Yeah. My question was, is this one thing or two?

Virginia

This is long flowy top on steroids. And again, I have been mistaken for pregnant so many times in an empire waist outfit. I don’t actually know that it is the solution? But it is something that we get told to do.

Corinne

Also with this one, empire waist, and ruching, and the long flowy tops—those styles are just not as “in” right now, so I feel like I’m not contending with that as much.

Virginia

I agree. But I also think if you have trained yourself to think that you need to wear these styles in order to be socially acceptable, and now they’re not in, that’s its own kind of stress, right?

Because if you’re still wearing them, you’re kind of marking yourself as the frumpy fat lady who can’t find trendy clothes or whatever.

Corinne

That’s where Lane Bryant comes in, where it’s like, you’re not making us feel cool.

Virginia

If you were like, I don’t care if it’s cool, I love an empire waist, great, that’s amazing. If it’s like, I feel stuck in this empire waist—you can wear a regular waist. You can wear no waist. You could wear low rise jeans.

Corinne

If there was a situation in which I had to wear an empire waist, I would be extremely unhappy. I would really not like that.

Virginia

I would really complain to the manager. I would have notes.

Corinne

I hope that style never comes back.

Virginia

I think we’re past the age where we get forced into bridesmaids dresses, I feel like that’s the most likely yeah scenario. If you have a friend requiring you to wear an empire waist bridesmaids’ dress, I would look hard at that relationship. And whether you need that person in your life.

Corinne

The next one definitely, I definitely have heard.

10. Your boobs should stick out more than your belly.

I have such a distinct memory of someone telling me this in high school and being like, oh shit, I gotta check that. Do they? I don’t know.

Virginia

Oh Lord, we’re so mean to ourselves. Not everybody’s boobs stick out more than their belly! Like, that’s bodies. That’s just bodies.

I mean, we talked about this in the breast reduction episode. As much as I’m like, oh, I wouldn’t get a breast reduction because I accept my body, it’s also that I wouldn’t get a breast reduction because I feel like having big boobs balances out my body. Like, it’s both things. It’s messy.

Is It Diet Culture to Want a Breast Reduction?

Corinne Fay and Virginia Sole-Smith

·

June 27, 2024

Read full story

I think it is really interesting that so many of these have this kernel of “intended to make you feel more confident and empowered.” But they actually do the opposite, because they reinforce anti-fatness. That’s what I see in so much of Tori Block’s content and other plus size influencers who do this “dressing for your belly” content. If all the advice is around how to disguise the belly, then how is that actually making us more confident about our bellies?

Corinne

Right? It’s sort of giving you a threshold. As long as you can fit under this threshold of your belly being smaller than your boobs, or not being able to see your belly when you’re wearing sweatpants, then you’re okay. But if you go past that, then we have a problem.

Virginia

Yeah, you’re right. The other thing about all of these style rules is there’s a point of fatness in which they no longer matter. Like, to whatever extent they work, they are not going to, work once you’re big enough. So that’s another garbage piece of this.

11. Show off your thinnest part.

This is classic Apple body advice, because the assumption is you’re round in the middle, but you have skinny legs.

And I love a short dress. I’m sorry. I love a short dress. I got nothing,

Corinne

I’m not wearing dresses, but this is also kind of like the bike shorts thing, where it’s like an oversized top with bike shorts.

Virginia

Yeah, it is related. I want to challenge it more than I do. And I accept that I am a person in this world.

Corinne

I think it is also fine to just have a preference for how things look. I don’t know.

Virginia

I look cute in short dresses. What can I say? But I can acknowledge that there’s some anti-fatness at work there. Related, if people have cute, short dress links, drop them in the comments. I’m always looking for more. Anyway, moving along.

Corinne

It’s winter! No one’s wearing dresses.

Virginia

It’s tights and boots season!

Some very adjacent advice to the short dress thing is “accentuate your smallest part, which tends to be your waist or your rib cage just above your belly.” So if you belt, you do it just above your belly, and then the skirt and pants below needs to be really flowy.

Again, I feel called out, appropriately.

Corinne

I don’t like this one because I find it uncomfortable.

Virginia

Well, I don’t wear belts. But if a waist on a dress hits at that part of my body that’s so much more comfortable than if it hits lower down on my belly, where my belly does not want a waist.

Corinne

Yeah, I’m thinking about the belts. I also am, wearing high-waisted pants. For a while, I was seeing ads for bras, where the point was to lift your boobs up so you could see the band which is the the smallest part of your body. Which also just sounds so uncomfortable. My boobs would be projecting out two feet. Which, no.

Virginia

I don’t need a Jane Austen costume. You know how they used to hike their boobs up?

Corinne

My boobs are smashed down over the smallest part of my waist.

Virginia

And there they will stay. Do not hoist them up.

Corinne

Yeah, so uncomfortable. Like, how are you going about your day?

Virginia

How are you conducting any business with your boobs cinched up and your waist cinched in?

I do feel like my big moment of growth is that I won’t sacrifice personal comfort to adhere to any of these rules. I’m not doing the boob hoisting thing. But I do gravitate towards a short dress with not an empire waist, but it’s in that ribcage-y kind of spot.

Corinne

I mean, what are you going to do? Just wear black, floor length robes?

Virginia

I mean, I love a mumu, too. But I’m just naming that it’s complicated and we don’t have to be divesting from every single one of these. I wear horizontal stripes. So I’ve made some progress.

12. “No flat front pants or skirts ever.”

Virginia

I actually don’t think I adhere to this one. I felt like I more grew up thinking don’t wear pleats because, again, the adding bulk thing.

Corinne

Right? And this makes me think of the patch pockets, too. I’m like, no, I prefer a flat front.

Virginia

But again, I think it’s like the tucking where I can see the advice going in both directions, and not being helpful in either scenario. So I do kind of get it, but it’s not one that lives in my head. I think I more tend towards flat front. I mean, I do miss maternity jeans a lot of the time. I think anyone should feel free to consider maternity jeans as a great option.

Corinne

You mean the ones that have the knit top?

Virginia

Yeah. I had two pairs I loved. The band where the belt would go had been totally cut off, and it just had kind of a nylon sock attached that pulled up over your belly. So they were super high waisted, they basically went up to my bra, and they were so comfortable. I had another pair that were a higher end brand, maybe Sevens or something, I can’t remember. And they had a regular jeans, like, they had the band and the zipper and everything, but they had elastic in the side pockets. These kind of like patches of elastic on the sides. So they were a lot more comfortable and sort of supportive to your belly. They were great. I am fatter now than I was when I was pregnant, or I’d probably still be wearing them. I think if you’ve been told no flat front pants, I think that’s one you could challenge.

13. Only take photos from the front.

Virginia

This last one is something we see all over Instagram. Influencers shoot from the front so you actually can’t tell how big someone’s belly is.

Corinne

Yeah. There’s so much advice out there about how to take photos so you look a certain type of way.

Virginia

We could do a whole other episode about photo advice! It’s a good episode topic.

Corinne

Yeah, and not sitting down. All kinds of stuff.

Virginia

Because everybody looks fatter when they’re sitting down. Which is fine. It’s because your body is folded. It’s normal.

Corinne

But yeah, if I’m taking a picture of an outfit, I’m usually taking it head on.

Virginia

Well, it also shows the outfit more clearly.

Corinne

Does it??

Virginia

Well, I guess it doesn’t show the whole outfit, but if I want to see the shirt, I don’t want to see the side of your shirt. I want to see the front of it.

Corinne

I feel like showing it from the side is just as good. Unless it has a picture on the front. But it’s also like, our eyes are on the front of our heads.

Virginia

Right, I’m looking at you right now. I’m not looking at the side of you while we record this podcast. That would be odd.

I do appreciate that Dacy always shows a side view. And I will often. I don’t do it as religiously as I could, but I do often try to remember to show a side view if I show an outfit on Instagram. Because I think this is one of those things that small fat folks need to be aware of, because you can fake thinness in a photo or fake more thin privilege than you have. And so if I take the head on photo, and I’m like, oh, I think I think this outfit makes me look thinner from the front. I try to make sure to include the side view. To be like, don’t worry. Still here. Still fat. Just to be more honest.

That said, I did appreciate Donnelle from Philly Fat Con, who commented that she doesn’t worry about side views because she thinks how she looks from the side is none of her business. I think that’s pretty valid.

Corinne

I love that.

Virginia

It’s not for us. Just don’t worry about it, if that’s what’s stressing you out. Just don’t think about that.

Corinne

To myself, I am two dimensional.

Virginia

I only ever see myself straight on. As far as I know, I have no sides.

Corinne

Yeah, why worry about the people walking behind you see?

Virginia

Oh, man, I love it. This felt cathartic. You know? It felt good. It felt healing to name all of these absolute trash rules.

Is there anything you think you would challenge yourself to try to break now that we like dissected so many?

Corinne

I am challenging myself to wear these pants with patch pockets.

Virginia

I love it.

Corinne

I would like to feel a little more crop top-comfortable. But I’m also just like, I just don’t know if it’s realistic. You know, I’ve lived almost 39 years and have never been a huge fan.

Virginia

It might not be for you.

Corinne

I do want to get a belly tattoo, though, and that might change things.

Virginia

I do feel like if you get a belly tattoo, you’ll want to wear crop tops. That’s going to be like you in bike shorts.

Corinne

I do wear a two piece bathing suit. What about you?

Virginia

Well, I’ve done horizontal stripes. I’m working on crop tops. I think I need to work on the visible belly outline thing, like wearing these boot cut leggings, like I realized today, I’m wearing them with not a flowy top, but a sweatshirt that sits a little lower and not one of my more cropped tank tops. I feel like I can challenge myself a little bit there.

Corinne

Maybe you need a bodycon dress.

Virginia

Oh gosh, okay, that sounds terrifying. So maybe not.

Corinne

I was just thinking about alternatives to the short dress, like a maxi bodycon.

Virginia

I just had a complete fear response? Alright, I’ll explore that. We didn’t even put that on the list, but the bodycon trend I have always felt is not for me. That is not available to the apple shaped person. I’m going to sit with that. I’m excited to hear from listeners which ones of these they’ve broken up with or are working on.

Corinne

Yes, yeah. Rachel in the Substack chat also put in a link to a really cute TikTok from a creator who does these cute videos where she’s hyping up her belly. She calls her belly like “the ginger.” She has an accent, so I don’t want to imitate, but it’s really cute.

@kamsendooIt’s the stomach for me! Everything is sitting! #bodypositivity #selflove #sexy #motivation

Virginia

I love it. KaMsendoo is the creator. This is adorable. More in belly love. We need it. We definitely need it. I’m here for that.

Corinne

My Butter is a snack product which I’ve become completely obsessed with, and also feels somewhat guilty to share, because I find the branding name to be abhorrent. The brand is called Lesser Evil.

Virginia

Okay, that’s not a great brand name.

Corinne

It’s not great. I think it’s because the snacks are vegan. Still don’t like it. I hate it. I just don’t want to be thinking about foods as evil, lesser evil, whatever. However, they make popcorn and um, balls? Like puff balls? I don’t want to call them cheese puffs, because they don’t have cheese. I guess they’re corn? Corn-based puffs. And they’re so freaking good, I’m addicted. The popcorn they do have a few flavors. There’s a sweet salty one, there’s a cheese one. The one I really like is the flavor is Himalayan Gold. I think it’s just fake butter, like coconut oil butter.

Virginia

I think a friend of mine brought this to book club.

Corinne

It’s so good. I also really like the fake cheese balls. You can find it online. You can find it at Whole Foods. I also really like making popcorn, but I’ve just become addicted to these bags of Lesser Evil popcorn.

Virginia

Well, let’s get them to rebrand.

Corinne

Can it be Morally Neutral Popcorn. Anyways, if you can get past the branding, I do think it’s really tasty.

Virginia

Alright. Well, as a lifetime drinker of Diet Coke, I can get past the branding.

Corinne

Same, if it tastes good enough, why not?

Virginia

If it tastes good enough we’re here for it.

Corinne

What’s your Butter?

Virginia

A little rage organizing is what I want to recommend to people. Now, I know you are not a natural organizer in the same way that I am. And I have written about how organizing is kind of a good/bad thing in my life.

Perfectionism and the Performance of Organizing

Virginia Sole-Smith

·

September 13, 2022

Read full story

But since the election I am very aware that I am feeling out of control in the universe and I need to feel in control of something. And what I am in control of right now is my kitchen countertops. It is all I have.

Part of this is because I am still pondering getting an air fryer, as I discussed on a recent podcast episode, and I was really drilling into the whole air fryer discussion with my friend Rachel, who loves her air fryer. And I was like, but where in my kitchen is it going to live?

So we started looking around my kitchen, and I really did not have a lot of clear counter space. So I then started investigating, why do 17 bottles of seltzer and children’s water bottles just live on my counter at all times? And I realized it’s because the cabinet where they could live contained two old fire extinguishers and somebody’s sock. It made no sense what was in my cabinets. And I identify as an organized person! But I had these kitchen cabinets that had just become black holes of chaos. And I just, like, on my lunch break the other day, redid it. I just dumped it all out, got everything out of there, moved some stuff, and now my countertops are clean, and those cabinets make more sense. And I don’t even know if I want an air fryer, because I just like how it looks without anything.

Corinne

Wow, that’s so satisfying. I need to do that.

Virginia

I am telling you, it is a drug. It is a safe drug. Give yourself a little organization high, a little rage organization. It’s the best. Feels good. It does nothing to help the state of the world.

Corinne

A few months ago, I got some of those Container Store plastic things for some of my cupboards, and oh my God, I feel joy every time I open my cupboard.

Virginia

So much joy, so much joy. And you know, the performance of femininity and domesticity is a fact. And I get it. Patriarchy makes me love this. And also, now all the children’s water bottles live on a shelf in a cupboard.

Corinne

You can actually find stuff.

Virginia

I think also what made it so satisfying was that I didn’t try to do the whole kitchen. I didn’t take on a huge project that would be days and hours. It was like, I’m going to deal with these two cupboards, and just do that and be so satisfied that I cleared this three foot area of space on my counter. Like, just do one small little spot and feel great.

Corinne

Well, I still want to hear if you end up getting an air fryer.

Virginia

This is airing after Black Friday, but it’s possible it will happen, because, I admit, I will be keeping my eye on sale prices. We’ll see! TBD. Stay tuned.

But in the meantime, the clean counter space is glorious.

The Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith (follow me on Instagram) and Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus, and Big Undies—subscribe for 20% off!

The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe.

Our theme music is by Farideh.

Tommy Harron is our audio engineer.

Thanks for listening and for supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism!