And yes, it’s July 4, so we are technically off today—but it is also America’s birthday and a very, very scary and complicated time to be an American. We recorded this conversation before last week’s debate dumpster fire and this week’s horrific SCOTUS rulings — but I promise, it’s still the reassuring action plan you need right now.

The States Project works to flip state legislations blue around the country. 

In 2022, Burnt Toast raised over $28,000 to hold ground in the Arizona State Senate. Last year we raised over $15,000 to elect majority making candidates in Virginia, where we defended the State Senate and flipped the House of Delegates to put a wall in front of Governor Youngkin’s right wing agenda. 

I know November is looming, and many of us feel paralyzed with fear about Trump, and not so great about Biden. So Melissa explains why state legislatures are where we can focus our energy and do some real good—even if Trump wins again.

I’m setting a goal for the Burnt Toast Giving Circle to raise $20,000 this year, and I fully expect us to hit that, and exceed it. After you listen to this episode, be sure to vote in our poll for the state you want us to support. You can also start your own Giving Circle to support the state of your choice!

Join the BT Giving Circle!

Happy birthday, America! You’re a mess. But we’re trying to form a more perfect union here. Or honestly, anything even a step above dumpster fire would work.

PS. If you’re enjoying the podcast, make sure you’re following us (it’s free!) in your podcast player! We’re on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, and Pocket Casts! And while you’re there, please leave us a rating or review. (We like 5 stars!)

Melissa

I’m Melissa Walker, I am the head of Giving Circles at The States Project. We focus on shifting the balance of power in state legislatures to elect majorities that are focused on improving people’s lives. 

Virginia

And you were on the podcast in 2022, when we first launched the Burnt Toast Giving Circle.

It's Time to Stop Panic Giving.

Virginia Sole-Smith

·

March 10, 2022

Read full story

And I asked you to come back because, Melissa, everything feels bad right now. It truly seems like Trump will win in November. And I feel like we’re not even talking about it because we’re all just burnt out with fatigue. But you are this voice of reason in my life who’s always like, “This is what we focus on. This is what we do.” So can you talk us off some ledges, please?

Melissa

Yes, I can. First, I want to acknowledge the fatigue, because it’s very real and we all feel it. Your fatigue is definitely a feature, not a bug, of a right wing that wants to dismantle our democracy. So if you’re feeling it, know that that is perfectly normal and we’re all feeling it to some extent. But also know that the helplessness and the isolation paralyze us, and that can cause some really bad things. 

I am lucky enough that I found a political path for me in December of 2016 when I heard New York State Senator Daniel Squadron speak about state legislatures. What I started to understand was that there were these 50 mini-congresses in our country where the right wing had been building power for decades, and where it turned out, I could have an impact. Being able to walk that path since 2016 has been therapy for me.

I think that gathering people in community and taking action in whatever form you do, it is the antidote to despair. It is also the only thing that has ever worked to move a democracy. As Margaret Mead said, “Never doubt that a small group of committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it’s the only thing that ever has.”

And I really believe in that. 

Virginia

And it’s what the other side has been doing for decades, as you said. They’ve been changing the world for the worse. So now we need to be that small group of committed citizens.

Melissa

That’s correct. 

Virginia

Tell us a little bit about how The States Project works and what you’re focusing on for 2024.

Melissa

State legislatures are the places where everything that we care about domestically is decided, from education funding to environmental policy to health care to civil rights to abortion to the course of our democracy, voting rights, and gerrymandering, the drawing of the district lines that decide who goes to Congress—it’s all happening in the hands of state lawmakers. 

These are not folks who people will have heard of. They are not going to be the spotlight races or the names on MSNBC at night. But they are the people who are deciding state by state by state what rights Americans have and get to keep. It’s an incredibly important power center. 

So The States Project does a 99 state chamber analysis every year—it’s 99 because Nebraska is unicameral. We figure out where we can target to try to shift power to elect majorities to improve people’s lives or break a right wing supermajority or defend against one. We figure out which races we need to go into to support with tactics and resources to make that happen. 

This is where the right wing has been building power for decades, no matter who’s been in the White House. And a lot of things that I think people remember, like the bathroom bill, the Stand Your Ground gun laws, the Flint, Michigan water crisis—those are all things that happened under an Obama presidency because the right wing had taken over state legislatures. This is where the rubber meets the road on policy and where we have to focus if we want to build back our democracy.

Virginia

I mean, that’s weirdly reassuring because if those horrible things could happen under an Obama presidency, it means another Trump presidency wouldn’t necessarily have the impact that we’re all fearing, if we can make this progress in the State legislatures.

Melissa

Yes. States will be a best line of defense if Trump is to win the presidency. Because states are the places where we can protect a lot of our rights and even advance them. Michigan ’22 is a great example. Michigan is a state where The States Project has been working since 2018 and making gains each year. But in 2022, we were finally able to help flip the State House and the State Senate—both of them flipped by one seat. Both of those seats were won by fewer than 400 votes. And with that trifecta—meaning Gretchen Whitmer in the governor’s mansion, and majorities in both the State House and the State Senate—Michigan has been able to codify the right to abortion, pass free breakfast and lunch for public school children, end right to work laws so unions can be strong again, and they passed the strongest climate bill in the country last fall—stronger than New York’s or California’s. 

All of that is because of one seat majorities in the state legislature. And again, not with politicians you will have heard of, but with that power shift comes real policy shift that changes people’s lives in Michigan and becomes a model for the rest of the country about what is possible when we elect people who are focused on improving lives.

Virginia

So tell us which states you’re focusing on for 2024. We’re going to put a poll in the show notes so that we can vote on where our Giving Circle should focus our energy.

Melissa

Great. Yes. So we will be in Michigan, Minnesota, and Pennsylvania to defend new majorities that we recently were able to win.

All those majorities won on very slim margins. In fact, the ones that I just mentioned in Michigan were the largest margins of those three states. In Minnesota, we were able to flip the State House by 191 votes. And in Pennsylvania, the State Senate, we flipped 12 seats, and the last one was won by 63 votes. 

Virginia

Oh my gosh. 

Melissa

So what I really want to tell the Burnt Toast crowd is that each Giving Circle really matters in this work. If every piece of the basketweave isn’t there, these are the margins that we’re winning or losing on. So we’ll be back to defend in those states.

And in addition, in Pennsylvania, we’ll be working on the Pennsylvania Senate as well to try to get to a tie there. Only half the seats are up so we’re looking for a tie in 2024. That will help us set up for 2026 flip. 

We’ll also be in Arizona to try to flip both chambers. We are two seats away from a flip in each chamber, one seat away from a tie. And that margin has held for the past few years. We are really, really close to flipping Arizona. There’s a Democratic governor. It’s an incredibly important state, obviously. All the states are important, but it’s a presidential swing state, so we’ll be in Arizona. 

We will also be in New Hampshire to try to flip the State House and tie the State Senate. That’s another, of course, swing state. 

And then we’re in a few states to try to break right wing super majorities. So we’re in North Carolina today to break a right wing supermajority. We just need one seat in the State House to do that. 

And we’re in Kansas to try to break a right wing supermajority for a Democratic governor Laura Kelly. Breaking those super majorities means that a Democratic governor has veto power which is incredibly important. One illustration of that is in Kansas where we saw voters come to the polls in Kansas and reject abortion restrictions, but the state legislature passed them anyway. When the governor vetoed them, they overturned her veto because of the supermajority. So if we’re able to break that supermajority those vetoes can stand and that’s a really important power shift that needs to happen in Kansas. Especially because the will of the voters is being completely ignored. 

We will also be in Nevada to try to build a supermajority against a right wing governor who vetoes everything. We’d love to be able to overturn those vetoes. 

And then in Wisconsin, we are going to be working to flip the assembly, which is what they call their state house. And Wisconsin has new maps and this is the first time that we actually see a path to shifting power there because of those new maps that are fairer than they’ve been in years in Wisconsin. So that’s a big lift, but an exciting new state for us to be in.

Virginia

Every state listed above is linked to its page on the State Project’s website so you can read up on them if you like. It turns out that Substack’s poll feature only lets me list 4 options, so here’s a Google Poll everyone can use to vote!

Which state should BT support?

If your state doesn’t get picked for the Burnt Toast giving circle, however, you can start your own giving circle to raise money for the state that you are most focused on. Melissa, tell folks how they do that.

Melissa

So I should say a couple of things about Giving Circles. One is that it is often cheaper to change the balance of power in an entire State Chamber than it is to win a single competitive congressional seat. Congressional races cost millions and millions of dollars and state legislative races do not. 

So, if you think, “Well my Giving Circle won’t be big enough to make a difference,” I beg to differ. Because dollars at this level go so incredibly far. Whatever you are thinking about investing politically this year—because I know everyone is looking for a place where they can really have impact—think about having that impact and then inviting 10 other people to come in and match what you gave. You’ve just given 10 times what you individually are able to do. And that’s the beauty of Giving Circles. It’s the community coming together for collective power. I think it’s a real antidote for that isolation and helplessness that a lot of us tend to feel when we watch what’s happening on the national scene. 

I should also say this, because I think it’s really important: Last year, Congress passed about 30 bills. Michigan, with that new trifecta, passed 321. This is absolutely where things are moving. 

If you care about Congress, you should care about state legislatures, because state legislatures draw the district lines that decide who goes to Congress in 70 percent of the country.

If you care about the Supreme Court, you should care about state legislatures because the Supreme Court doesn’t write laws, they rule on laws that are coming out of state legislatures. It was a Mississippi law that took down Roe and if that one hadn’t done it, there were 16 other states that had queued up abortion bans right after Kavanaugh was confirmed with the explicit purpose of rising up to the Supreme Court to challenge Roe. Those laws are coming from state legislatures. 

If you care about the presidency, you should care about state legislatures because not only do state legislators decide who can vote and when and how and when to purge the rolls or close polling places, but also because the path that the Trump team tried to steal the presidency and 2020 ran directly through state legislatures. It wasn’t senators or congresspeople that Trump called to the Oval Office in December of 2020, it was state legislators from Michigan and Arizona and Pennsylvania. He was asking them to change their electoral college votes because state legislatures are in charge of their state’s elections. 

And what I say to everyone who starts a Giving Circle at any level is that they’ve turned on the porch light for strategic political giving and that is a gift to everyone in their networks—their friends, their families and their neighbors—because everyone is looking for that right now. 

So I really appreciate the Burnt Toast community having a Giving Circle. I hope folks will join. I should also mention that in 2023, the Burnt Toast Giving Circle helped us focus on Virginia where we were able to defend the State Senate and flip the House of Delegates, so that there is a wall in front of Governor Youngkin’s rightwing agenda. There were a lot of articles about Governor Youngkin and his national ambitions and his plan for an abortion ban in Virginia last fall. But you haven’t read much about him lately and that is because the legislature has blocked everything that he’s trying to do, and that was partly because of the Burnt Toast Giving Circle. 

Virginia

Good work us! Yes, yes.

Melissa

Start a States Project Giving circle at statesproject.org if you’ve got your own crew, and just don’t give into the helplessness and despair. We do not have to be witnesses to what is happening in our country. We can absolutely be active participants to make it better. 

Virginia

I mean, I feel so much better when I talk to you about this. There is a clear path, this is a thing we can all do. It’s doable. We can do this and we just need to come together and make it happen. 

Thank you so much for hopping on to talk about this. I’m excited to see which state Burnt Toast picks to focus on (vote here!) and to hear from everybody starting their own Giving Circles. Keep in touch. We want to know what you’re doing and what you’re focusing on.

Melissa

Amazing. Thank you so much. 

Virginia

Thanks, Melissa.

---

The Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith (follow me on Instagram) and Corinne Fay who runs @SellTradePlus and Big Undies—subscribe for 20% off.

The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe.

Our theme music is by Jeff Bailey and Chris Maxwell.

Tommy Harron is our audio engineer.

Thanks for listening and for supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism!

56

We are Virginia Sole-Smith and Corinne Fay, and it’s time for your June Indulgence Gospel! We’ve got an old-fashioned listener Q roundup today, including:

• How should we think about breast reductions—are they medically necessary or diet culture or both?

• How are we solving chub rub this summer?

• Do they make fat-friendly toilet seats? (Corinne says yes!)

And so much more!

This is a paywalled episode. That means to hear the whole thing you’ll need to be a paid Burnt Toast subscriber. Subscriptions are $7 per month or $70 for the year.

If you’re already a paid subscriber, you can add on a subscription to Big Undies, Corinne’s new Substack about clothes,for 20% off.

This transcript contains affiliate links. Shopping our links is another great way to support Burnt Toast!

Virginia

Well, Corinne, we have to talk about Big Undies because we are recording this on the day that you launched. How are you? 

Corinne

As I told you earlier, my brain is a little bit addled. I was haunted last night by typo nightmares, which I just feel is very unlike me. But that’s where I was at. I mean, typos happen. What are you going to do? 

Virginia

We have typos in Burnt Toast almost every week, even with both of us proofreading it. They are a part of life. But I know that first one is a ripping off the bandaid moment. It’s just like, oh man. It’s going out.

Corinne

I’m also really excited and grateful for the Burnt Toast community. And for you, Virginia, pushing me off the ledge. 

Virginia

So, usually when people work with me, I have them sign an NDA, meaning if I was reporting something super sensitive you wouldn’t put it on Twitter or whatever, back in the day. And when Corinne first came to work with me, she was like, “Will it be a conflict of interest because I think I might start with my own Substack at some point.” And I was like, “No, absolutely not. That sounds amazing. Let’s do it.” And that was three years ago. So then when we were at the hot springs, I was like, hey, what if we did it now?

Corinne

Yeah, here it is. It has definitely been a project that I have had in my mind for a long time even before I started working on Burnt Toast. I was like, I really want to start a podcast about clothes. So here, it’s finally happening. Not a podcast, but. 

Virignia

I mean, maybe a podcast! Maybe someday it will turn into a

Big Undies

podcast as well.

Do you want to talk a little bit about what kinds of stories you’re planning to do? It has been out for a month, so hopefully folks have gotten a good sense of things. But what are you most excited to be working on? 

Corinne

I’m really excited to do some interviews and questionnaires with people that aren’t necessarily fashion influencers. I’m excited to do some deeper dives into clothes. We’re doing fat swim week and I’m also really open to what other ideas people might have, so send me a message. 

Virginia

There are a lot of things that have come up that we’ve been like, “Oh, Corinne should write about this.” And now there’s a place where you can really explore all of it. 

So, if you are listening to this, you are already a paid subscriber to Burnt Toast. And that means you can subscribe to Big Undies for 20% off, which means you get both Burnt Toast by Virginia Sole-Smith and Big Undies for less than $12 a month for both newsletters

.Corinne

Awesome. Should we get into the questions? 

Virginia

We should because we have some very juicy ones. 

Corinne

Yeah, this first one is meaty. Okay:

Is it diet culture to want a breast reduction? Of course there are benefits to how I would look in my clothes but it would also mean less painful bra experiences, easier shopping, and relieving the strain on my back and shoulders. For reference, I’m a small fat and wouldn’t want to do any intentional weight loss since I know from experience that’s not sustainable.

Virginia

I want to say no, it’s not diet culture. This person is allowed to do whatever they want with their body. Your body belongs to you. And, I don’t think we can ever disentangle thin ideals from this particular form of body modification. 

Corinne

I feel like I always say this, but it’s complicated. I do kind of feel like the answer is yes and also no.

Virginia

I’m not trying to discount this person’s pain or experience of their body at all, but as someone who has the size breasts that many a plastic surgeon would feel qualify for breast reduction, and who deals with some back pain issues, I guess I’m not convinced my boobs are causing my back pain issues? I think I would do this surgery and put myself through all of this and I would still have back pain issues.

And I think there’s a lot you can do to address back pain with physical therapy, like getting your core stronger. I guess the reason I’m saying this, again, is not to say this person should or should not do the surgery. I think often we’re told, “be smaller and all of these physical problems will go away.” And that may sometimes help to some degree, but I think not if you’re not addressing the structural issues, your pain might not resolve. And a breast reduction wouldn’t do that. 

Corinne

I do think part of the reason this one is complicated is also because there can be so much gender stuff around boobs and how your clothes fit. I do think that is very real. And, I also think having bigger breasts does make you look bigger in a different way. I think if you’re “top heavy” in that way, you you look bigger sometimes. 

Virginia

You present as fatter. 

Corinne

And I think people also object to that.

Virginia

And that’s complicated, right? Because I would have no qualms supporting someone who said, “I’m getting breast reduction or breast removal to affirm my gender identity.” That makes total sense to me. And I do have a different response to someone saying, “I’m doing it for back pain” or “I’m doing it to look thinner.” I think I have different responses to each of those. 

Corinne

I thought it was interesting that this person mentioned easier shopping. I guess that’s where we get into the systemic stuff where it’s like… It makes me really sad that people are like, “I need to have surgery so that shopping is easier.” That’s a bummer. 

Virginia

Right this is a major operation, with a long recovery time, drains in your chest. It’s a whole thing so that you can fit into clothes at The Gap. Why doesn’t The Gap just make clothes that fit? That’s a lot to put yourself through for access. I also wonder—as a small fat, I guess there are times where my boobs are the reason something doesn’t fit. But like, the jeans are still not going to work. You know what I mean? Boobs are not the only reason I can’t find something that fits.

Neither of us wants to give this person direct advice. We do not know you. We don’t know what’s right for you. But I think if I had a friend who was like, “what do you think?” and wanted my input, I would be curious and encourage them to really drill down on what are you expecting to change? And how likely is the surgery going to change that variable for you? And weigh that up against the risks and the stress of going through the procedure.

I think, yes, diet culture is in there. How could it not be? That doesn’t mean you shouldn’t do it. But being honest about that being what part of it could be clarifying.

Corinne

It is a serious surgery and it’s elective, so you’re probably paying for it. Although I guess maybe, if it’s related to back pain, it’s not? I don’t know. 

Virginia

Yeah, it probably varies.

Corinne

I think the fact that you’re still considering it even though it like could be very expensive and hard to recover from probably means there is something there.

Virginia

Yeah, totally. And we support you no matter what you choose. We are not in your body. It’s a lot of big questions to go through. 

The research on how people feel after getting bariatric surgery does show very clearly how much these body modification procedures are not a fix for everything. Often folks after weight loss surgery are struggling more with how they feel about their body, with their relationships, with depression. This is a different procedure, I’m not saying it all applies. But it might be interesting to do a search on PubMed, which is the National Institutes of Health database where you can get medical studies, for long term outcomes on breast reduction surgeries and see what kinds of things they even track people for and how long they track them.

I’m curious to know how people feel 5 and 10 years out. And they may not follow patients even that long. Think about what are your priorities with the surgery? And then say, are they even looking for how people do with this in a research setting? Are they following patients for this variable? 

Corinne

That is a really good idea. And that is super interesting because isn’t the research on gender affirming surgery is that almost no one regrets it? Seems like there is an interesting gap there. 

Virginia

The outcomes of bariatric surgery and gender affirming surgery are opposite extremes, I think. It goes to show how different these needs are. One is being pushed on you culturally, and one is something you’re doing to be more yourself. Now I want to write a whole piece comparing that research. Anyway! Super fascinating.

Let’s do some clothing questions. The next one is,

How do you avoid chub rub? Do I have to retire from wearing shorts? 

June feels like the time to do our annual discussion of chub rub. And as someone currently wearing shorts, I’m going to say no, you don’t have to retire from them.

Corinne

As someone also currently wearing shorts, I agree. For whatever reason, the way I live my life now, it’s not something I’m struggling with a lot. I guess maybe part of it is because I wear a lot of bike shorts and I feel like that kind of solves it.

Virginia

Bike shorts are a really good solve.

Corinne

There are a bunch of products now, too, like Megababe Thigh Rescue. Do you use that? 

Virginia

I use Old Spice antiperspirant, which is the same thing I use for my deodorant. I use it as my chub rub and it works great. So I have never upgraded to one of the fancier chub rub products. But if that hasn’t worked for you, there are many options. 

Under dresses in the summer I’m always wearing slip shorts. I really liked the Universal Standard ones because they’re very, very thin and silky, so they don’t make me hotter. I pretty much just wouldn’t wear a dress without them because that is is uncomfortable. 

It is true with linen or looser cotton shorts, you can get the same issue. What I find even more annoying about that type of short is there’s the chub rub, which I can correct for with my antiperspirant trick. But then the fabric of the shorts often bunches up and gets caught on your thighs. Do you know I’m talking about? I don’t have a good fix for that. Except to mostly just decide I don’t really care. And just pull my shorts out when they get caught on my thighs.

Corinne

I think there are some different schools of thought around that. I think sometimes it’s because they’re either too small or too big and it doesn’t happen as much with a different size. But I do think that it does happen.

I think it also has to do with body mechanics sometimes. I remember having horrible chub rub when I was younger and It just doesn’t happen to me as much now and I don’t know if it’s because I’m walking less, or it’s dry here, or I don’t know, 

Virginia

New Mexico is a dry heat. I think the fact you wear bike shorts so much is the main reason you’re not struggling, I think. This is reminding me that I’m debating whether I want to start my annual quest for jean shorts. I feel like every year I’m like, I’m not going to do it. And then I’m like, I do want jean shorts. And then I buy some and they’re sort of okay, but not great. And then here we are again. Jean shorts are one where they really can end up in your crotch. Maybe this is helping me hone in on the fact I don’t need to do that again.

Corinne

I just got some jean shorts I like.

Virginia

Of course you did. You can wear jeans, too.

Corinne

They’re just Old Navy jean shorts. I’m sure they will be sold out by the time this airs.

Virginia

Okay, wide width shoe recs! We got a couple of questions about this. One person specifically wanted wide width sandals and one person one wanted general recs and said why are the options so bad?

Corinne

I am someone with wide feet. And I personally have just found what works best for me is to go the men’s shoes route. But I know that’s not everyone’s style. I have wide feet and long feet, so it works for me. 

But I do know about a couple of brands that people like. The first one is there’s this brand called Adelante shoe company. I think you have ordered from them? They do custom sizing. There’s also a newer brand called Wydr Studios, and I feel like they actually have some pretty cute styles.

Virginia

Oh, yeah, these are cute. Some very good sandals. They kind of remind me of Saltwater Sandals. It’s a similar fisherman sandal vibe. 

Corinne

Yeah, they have a bunch of styles. They have some that kind of look more like Teva-ish. They have some heels. I think they have cute stuff. Yeah, so definitely check out Wydr.

And then this other brand I just learned about called San Antonio Shoes. 

Virginia

San Antonio Shoemakers.

Corinne

I learned about them from Val on Instagram. She had a pair of sandals from them that were really cute. The relaxed sandals, relaxed back sandals. They’re like a kind of strappy sandal. They look super comfortable but they’re also cute. And they come up to like double wide width.

Virginia

They have a Birkenstock vibe and they look really, really comfortable. I will say these are all pricey. I’m looking at the black sandal is $194. So, fat tax. 

But — lots of privilege behind the statement— I do tend to buy pricier shoes because I’m just like I can’t  with uncomfortable cheap shoes. My feet cannot handle it. I spent most of my 20s wearing really cheap heels that I bought on 8th Street in New York City for like $9 a pair, and did some long term damage. So to me these price points are not shocking. However, if you were hoping Target had the answer, these are major price points, but they seem like really high quality well-made shoes. 

Corinne

I will also add that I think Target actually has started selling wide width shoes! But I haven’t tried them. 

Virginia

I’m also seeing Zappos has an extra wide shoes section. I don’t know a lot about what the options are in there. But it’s nice to see that they at least are listing that as like an option.

Then the next fashion question is: Can we do a Burnt Toast guide to brands that have our sizes in stores? And my answer is yes, but it should be a

Big Undies

guide.

Corinne

I mean, I agree. I would love to look into it. But I’m also like, who? Who has my size in stores?

Virginia

It would be a very short guide. 

Corinne

Never heard of it.

Virginia

I mean, do you buy anything in stores ever? I really don’t.

Corinne

I’m trying to think. I feel like I’ve gone in an emergency situation to like, Torrid. I can’t remember what it was I needed. And I’m so glad that that option exists. But no, not really. 

Virginia

 What if the guide was little shopping diaries from people who are like, “I went to my local Torrid and this is how it was.” Or reviews from someone who lives in New York City who can shop at Wray or Brooklyn Plus Bus or something? All firsthand experiences. Because then if you are traveling somewhere, it would just help people know, oh, there is an option in the city. And here’s this person reporting what they got and what they liked about it. That might be kind of fun to crowdsource if Big Undies readers have specific favorite local plus-size stores. 

There is definitely nothing around me. There is a bra store in town that has a small fat size mannequin in the window along with regular straight size mannequin. I keep meaning to go in, but I have to admit, I feel so awkward if I go in and then they don’t have my size. I feel like I then have made their lives uncomfortable. I have a thing to unpack there where I’m going to feel bad for this little shop. I think I have some sympathy with small boutique owners. It’s difficult for them to stock a lot of stuff. But then I’m also just like, “I would go buy bras from you if you carried my size.” We may need to call first. 

Corinne

Yeah, I was going to say you could always call and ask.

Virginia

I know, but then I have to use the phone. I mean, it’s just stress upon stress! Alright, well, this is why we need the BigUndies Guide To In-Person Shopping.

Corinne

Yeah, that would be really fun. 

What’s an aspect of public or social life that’s inaccessible or hostile to fat people but not talked about enough?

Virginia

I just have to say I had a moment of drawing a blank because I’m like, “I think we talk about that?” And then I was like, well, we do. Like, me and Corinne, and Burnt Toast and Big Undies. We’re all here to talk about it. But what are people not talking about in the mainstream? 

I thought everybody knew this, but I was texting with a group of friends recently, all of whom are thinner than me and one of them was picking out new dining room chairs. And I was like, “Oh, FYI, those are very cute, but I might break it if I sit in it.” And none of them had any idea. They were like, “Wait, what? Dining chairs have weight limits? What?” They had no idea that dining room furniture is not size inclusive. So that’s my one recent experience where I was like, “Guys, you read Burnt Toast!” (It was my book club - love you all!) But now they know. And they’re all ready to look into that. But what do you think?

Corinne

Again I kind of feel like we talk about it. But public spaces in general—seating in theaters or seating in basically any kind of public space is often going to be chairs with arms that are not going to fit everyone. And that’s a huge problem.

Virginia

It’s a huge problem.

Corinne

I got called for jury duty last year and I was like, well, this is not something where there’s going to be a Yelp photo that I can look up beforehand. I don’t know what it’s going to be like.

Virginia

Could you get out of jury duty though? Because that might be a plus? 

Corinne

I mean, you definitely could, but would you have to be standing for 10 hours until then? It ended up being fine. But I was definitely worried about it. Like, seating in public places, public access places. And also in people’s homes. Like, I can’t tell you the anxiety that I have about like going to someone’s house and being like, I’m just gonna have to stand the whole time.

Virginia

Do you flag it for people?

Corinne

I mean, I do sometimes, but it’s also like, what are they going to do? You know? Like, you’re going to someone’s birthday party and you’re going to be like, can you buy a chair for me? Or am I going to drag my own chair?  

Virginia

It’s so frustrating. 

Corinne

For the jury duty one, I think they asked about accessibility stuff. So if there’s something like that, I’ll always say, “I’m fat, and I need seating without arms,” or whatever. So hopefully, they’ll start thinking about it.

Virginia

It is really interesting how often it’s not on people’s radar, though. I always include it when I do speaking gigs. When I’m talking to schools, I always tell Aubrey Gordon’s anecdote of being in high school and the chairs with the desks that attach and that she couldn’t close her desk for like, all of high school. It’s just so enraging to me that she had to experience that. I often see school administrators shifting nervously as they are realizing their classrooms probably have some of those desks in them. And they need to fix that.

Corinne

I mean, yeah, that’s just awful. Schools, that is so sad. 

Virginia

It’s a human rights issue. Kids need to be able to sit in the classroom and take notes. I’m curious what people will bring up in the comments because I’m sure there are other flavors of this or other issues we’re not thinking about and I’m always looking for more of these so we can talk about them and do more stories on them. 

All right, the next question,

What do you do about flimsy toilet seats? I just moved into a new house and I’m sliding around all over the place. I can buy a new one, but I don’t know what to look for.

Corinne. You have the best toilet seat.

Corinne

Yeah, so I I ended up with this toilet seat after I broke two rapidly in a row. There’s a toilet seat made by the brand Big John. They are bigger than your toilet, if that makes sense. Like the ceramic circle that is your toilet bowl, it like sits on that but it extends out. 

Virginia

And it’s strong enough? I’m picturing that that could be…

Corinne

No. It’s strong enough. Because I feel like the problem is like that they come unscrewed at the back or whatever. And I think it does have like a slightly different way of screwing into those holes. I do still have to tighten mine but it’s not as bad as a regular toilet seat. I will say when I first put it on, I was like, this is horrifying. I’m going to be so ashamed anytime anyone comes to my house. And I don’t know, I just forgot about it. And I have had a couple of people now be like, whoa, your toilet seat is amazing. Even not fat people just because toilet seats are so unnecessarily small.

Virginia

They are really small. Why not have a comfortable seat? Take up space in the bathroom!

Going back to the previous question: Nobody’s lives are made harder if chairs are more comfortable and fit bigger bodies. It’s like, nobody loses when we make space more inclusive. So this is a great example, thin people aren’t like, I can’t sit on a wide toilet seat. Nothing bad is going to happen? 

Corinne

And toilets or bathrooms are probably a good one for the last question, too. Like toilet stalls being too narrow.

Virginia

Wall mounted toilets. I know a lot of people have anxiety about that.

Corinne

Oooh I’ve never even thought about that. But now I will. 

Virginia

They’re very common in Europe. And then you’re like, am I going to take this thing off the wall? How would that work? Important accessibility issues. 

Corinne

All right.

Any advice for how not to be an oversharer and keep some things for the inner circle?

Virginia

So when I first read this question, I said to Corinne, is this a subtweet of me.

Corinne

I think I was assuming that they were admiring your ability to not be an over-sharer.

Virginia

I hope that’s the case. I will absolutely take it as a compliment. I mean, as someone who writes personal essays, who is a semi-public figure, who has an Instagram—there are all these ways in which you’re constantly being asked to share more and more and more of yourself. And I don’t know if the person who sent this question in is also doing that kind of work, or just in their own life feeling like they overshare.

I think in some ways, oversharing gets a bad rap. Being very open and vulnerable is how we form relationships and sticking to small talk types of topics doesn’t get us anywhere. So I think there’s a place for oversharing. I think it’s actually a beautiful thing that helps bring us all together. And I also know that icky, nauseous feeling you have when you’re like, well, I put more out there than I wanted to. And now what? What are your thoughts about this? 

Corinne

I think I tend to be a little more on the private side, maybe? The thing that I’m thinking about is just, like, if you’re worried that whatever you’re going to share is too much, you can always ask? Like, “I want to tell you this thing, do you have the capacity?” Or I don’t know if we’re talking about on social media, I guess that’s a little different. 

Virginia

The Internet would be like, “Yes, we do.” 

Corinne

“Do tell us why you got divorced.” 

Virginia

I think one thing I do, when I’m talking about my life publicly, in the way that my work requires, is I do have a list of no fly zone areas. These are the things that I’m like, “That’s not ever going in Burnt Toast. That’s not ever going to be an anecdote I share in the world.” So I think having a kind of running list in your head and checking in on it periodically can help.

One of my kids recently let me know that she does not want one particular topic discussed publicly anymore. And so it will not be. And that was really helpful for me to have that conversation with her so I could just take it off the table of things that I’m available to comment on. And sometimes it is challenging, because people might expect that you are available to talk about something but certainly when I say “I’m sorry, that’s a boundary I have to keep for my kids,” only assholes are going to try to argue with that. So I think just being clear with people about your boundaries if, again, you’re doing some kind of public facing thing where you need to say up top like I’m not going to do this. I never show the exterior of my house online. I never share my kids’ last name online. There are certain things I’m just never going to talk about.

Corinne

Personally I’ve struggled more with having the boundary. Like if someone asks you something you don’t want to answer, how do you respond to that? Because I have had some times where someone has asked me something I really didn’t want to answer. And I’ve said “I’m not going to answer that,” or “I’m happy to talk about that with you at a different time or in a different place.” And it hasn’t been well received. 

Virginia

I mean, I think that’s their problem, though.

Corinne

I totally agree. But I think that is also complicate.

Virginia

I think we have to look at our people pleasing tendencies. It’s okay to disappoint people. We don’t owe the world our bodies and our lives and our stories. And I keep coming back to that. 

Corinne

Well, I think I’m much more willing to share or overshare one-on-one than I am in a group setting or something like that.

Virginia

Go for breakfast burritos with Corinne. She’ll tell you everything. I’m just an oversharer in all contexts.

Corinne

Are you? I don’t know.

Virginia

I think you can’t do my job and be a super closed book? And like I said, I think there are a lot of strengths to being a person who shares. You can make friends quickly and that’s nice. But I have sometimes gone to a social event and the next morning wanted to send a group text being like, “did I overshare? Did I take our conversation in a weird direction?” But that’s the social anxiety piece, which is a whole other conversation. 

Corinne

Yeah, I was going to ask if there was anything you had shared that you had regretted? 

Virginia

Well, I’m not going to share it on the podcast! I can’t think of an example that I would be comfortable sharing the podcast. But I think we all have those moments. Well, maybe you don’t. A lot of us have those moments.

Corinne

I definitely have moments where I’m like, ugh, I wish I hadn’t shared that. 

All right.

Why are men so resistant to unlearning diet culture? Not all men, I know. Do women think about their bodies more than men and therefore have more to gain from getting their brain space back? For people with complicated food histories, do you ever get all your brain space back?

Virginia

Okay, I want to save the second part of that question for when we move on to the next question, because they kind of go together. So for now, we’ll talk about men being resistant to unlearning diet culture and do women have more to gain from getting their brain space back.

I don’t think it’s that women have more to gain from getting our brain space back. I think it’s that men have a lot to gain by upholding diet culture, because upholding diet culture upholds patriarchy and white supremacy.

Corinne

That seems right.

Virginia

I think there’s a lot of reasons for men to resist unlearning it because it is the first card in the house of cards to fall. And if you’re shoring up your white male privilege, shoring up your thin privilege along with that makes a lot of sense.

Corinne

I do think that the way that we get men on board is the fact that diet culture, patriarchy, and white supremacy also harm men. 

Virginia

I shared this reel on Instagram last week. The Washington Post had this video clip of the cadets at one of the military schools

Corinne

Oh, yeah, doing some weird man ritual. 

Virginia

It’s an end of year ritual for the cadets after they’ve gone through whatever grueling boot camp they’ve gone through. It’s all these shirtless men trying to climb a greased obelisk. So basically a bunch of men climbing over each other to climb what is a giant phallus. It’s just a penis. And it’s like, Men will do anything but feel their feelings.

It’s a whole separate thing. But it’s also this. The way all of this harms men is by making them think they have to go to war instead of just having a conversation about shit. They would benefit because they would be given the full range of human emotions. We don’t currently socialize boys to have vocabulary for their feelings. If they could do this unlearning. 

Corinne

We should also say men also have eating disorders. Men have their own special type of diet culture, like Andrew Huberman. And there are also fat men, fat men also exist.

Virginia

Totally. Men are navigating slightly different messages around bodies, but equally unattainable ideals. And they’re navigating it without any emotional script. Like, women can immediately bond over body anxieties. It’s an immediate conversation you can have in any public bathroom in the world with other women. Not that you would necessarily all be on the same page, but women can talk about our bodies. Especially those of us who are oversharers. And men just can’t walk into a public restroom and be like, “I hate my body,” to another man.

Corinne

Yeah. I think there’s just as much bullying and that kind of thing amongst men about bodies too. Like weird stuff on sports teams. But they never get to the point where then they’re like, “Oh, everyone has this problem and it’s harming all of us.”

Virginia

 Right. Right. And I think they’re less likely to get diagnosed for eating disorders. because we assume men are non emotional about that, which is bullshit. Men are absolutely emotional about bodies. But because we assume they’re not emotional about it, we give them this gravitas, and assume that anything Andrew Huberman is telling you to deal with carbohydrates is science and not just his own weird food hang up. We don’t give women the same space. But then in some ways it gives women more nuance and more tools if we want to avail ourselves of them. It’s hard for everybody. Bodies are very hard. It’s hard to have a body in this world. 

Corinne

That’s true. 

Virginia

Okay, but so the second part of this question for people with complicated food histories, do you ever get all your brainspace back? And then another person wrote,

I’d love to know from you guys and other Burnt Toasters

—I like toasters, by the way, We usually say toasties.

After divesting from diet culture and all the attendant obsessive repetitive thoughts, what did you fill your mind with? Find it filled with instead?

Corinne

My immediate reaction to this one was just like, there’s just so much other stuff to fill your head with—not that none of it is diet culture related. Have you tried TikTok?Your head will immediately be filled with six second song clips.

Virginia

I mean, obviously, my answer is gardening at this time of year.

Corinne

Yeah, that’s probably a lot more healthy.

Virginia

Whatever, it’s also an obsessive and expensive hobby. You said something interesting, though, before we started recording when we were talking about this question. You said, “this isn’t my struggle,” or something? 

Corinne

I’m not sure I ever had a point where I was like, “What do I put in my head now?” I think I’ve always been pretty good at finding ways to distract myself. I think, to me, the question that is a little bit maybe more interesting is like, “Do you ever get all your brain space back?” And I think the answer is kind of no. 

Virginia

Because you never know what’s going to trip you up. I just wrote that piece when I wasn’t working out as much and suddenly feeling sort of spirally about “I’m not working out enough,” and then realizing, it’s because I like gardening better. It’s fine. Divesting from diet culture means you get to pick. But the fact that I have to go through that process every time is that old stuff coming back. 

Corinne

And you can fill your brain with Tiktoks. And then you’ll come across a Tiktoks about dieting or you’ll realize that you only care about young thin Tiktokers. It’s just always there. 

Virginia

And I think we just have to have grace for that. 

Corinne

It’s never gonna stop coming up because this is the world we live in. But I’m also not weaponizing it against myself in the same way. I can watch a Tiktok about whatever. I can witness that. And I’m not going to turn it against myself.

Virginia

That seems big. 

Corinne

Yeah. Okay, I’m gonna ask you the next question. 

There’s so much crap out there about picky eating. What is your bottom line advice for parents who have kids who really only have a handful of safe foods and when even some of those foods don’t work sometimes, especially when those foods are something that’s demonized by diet culture, like crackers or bread? How do we support ourselves in feeding our children and getting them what their bodies need and tuning out all the other crap? Will the kids forever only eat bread?

Virginia

Okay, so I did not want to include this question because, as we talked about in the June Extra Butter episode that came out a few weeks ago, I’m really wrestling with how much time I should spend on these kinds of questions at this point in my work. I am not a feeding therapist. I’m not a dietitian. And I think there’s been a misconception that because I write about our cultural relationships with food and anti-fatness that that should somehow translate to me giving specific feeding advice. Probably because I’ve given specific feeding advice sometimes. 

So, with that caveat! I think if you have a kid who really only has a handful of safe foods, and I think the number is fewer than 20, you should definitely seek out a responsive feeding therapist. Follow the work of Laura Thomas who writes Can I Have Another Snack? And Helping Your Child with Extreme Picky Eating is a great resource by Katja Rowell and Jenny McGlothin.

If you’re not in the severe feeding issues category, I would also recommend adding on How to Raise an Intuitive Eater by Amee Severson and Sumner Brooks. All of those folks are much better equipped than me to give you specific advice about how do you plan meals, how do you handle it when kids don’t want to eat, all that kind of stuff. 

What I do want to talk about is the piece of this where your kid only has the short list of safe foods and a lot of those foods are things that are demonized by diet culture, like crackers or bread. The bottom line advice I have for that is that is fed is best. Your child needs to eat, and your child does not deserve to feel shame for the foods that they feel safe eating. 

So it is absolutely okay to set whatever boundaries you need to set around protecting that kid’s ability to eat their white bread and Cheez-its. That is how that kid is getting fed right now. Nobody else knows your life. They don’t know what you’re up against. And I’m sorry, but they can go fuck themselves for having an opinion about it. So that’s where I am, bottom line. 

I think you may need other parents who are on this journey with you who can help you remember that when it feels really hard. Whether that’s a partner you’re co-parenting with, or mom friends, or a Facebook support group. You need some folks who can remind you that your child deserves to feel safe with the foods they eat. They do not deserve to feel shamed for this. You need someone who can keep bringing you back to that place. 

And while we can support folks and work with kids are building skills and building their comfort level, and there’s a lot of value in that work—we also have to say, if this never changes, your kids still deserves to feel safe and feel no shame about how they eat. Because everybody deserves that. That’s the fundamental right. 

So yeah, I don’t know your kid. I don’t know if they’re going to forever eat bread. But if they do, that’s okay. That’s a valid way to live in this world. 

Corinne

Cool, that’s good advice. 

Virginia, where did you buy your Dahlia bulbs and how are your dahlias?

Virginia

This is what is filling my head now instead of diet culture. 

So, this weekend, I planted my first raised bed of dahlias. I’m so going hard on my dahlias this year but in a more organized way than I ever have before. And it’s a real journey partly because I then opened my box of dahlias and realized I only ordered half as many as I needed. And as you’ll recall last year I bought three times too many so I don’t understand. I can’t do dahlia math. It’s so hard for me. 

But the first bed that I planted this weekend, which is a four by eight bed, and it has 32 dahlias in it. There’s one per square foot, eight different varieties. Those are all from Swan Island Dahlias, which is a dahlia site that

Anne Helen Petersen

told me to get them from. Really, really good high quality stuff. And all Dahlia sources are not created equal,there is a lot of drama in the dahlia community. So you do want to go to reputable sources and Swan Island is a good one.

THE VISION

I will also recommend following Anne Helen’s Garden Study which is the garden section of the Culture Study newsletter. And then she and her best friend are starting basically a dahlia micro farm. They’re posting tons of great dahlia content.

Then for the other bed, which I have not planted yet because I didn’t buy enough dahlias, I’m getting them from my friend Marcella, who is a local dahlia farmer here who runs Parcel Flower Co. I was texting her on Saturday with a degree of urgency to be like, tell me you still have tubers. Can I buy some tubers? What color tubers do you have? Because I’m trying to stick to a whole color palette this year. It’s a whole thing. It’s a whole thing.

Currently.

Corinne

So when you bought too many dahlias last year… Wait I guess I just don’t really understand this. Can you recycle the tubers or no? 

Virginia

Okay, if you live in a very very, very warm zone like Mexico. You can overwinter your dahlias in the ground. Even in England, and where you live, probably people can overwinter dahlias. 

So last year, I pulled those tubers out because I know I can’t overwinter in a raised bed, and I stored them. But I did not store them well and they did not survive the winter.

Corinne

Damn. How do you tell that they didn’t survive? 

Virginia

Because they’re mushy. 

Corinne

Oh, they rot or something? 

Virginia

They can either totally shrivel up or they can go mushy. They’re basically potatoes, like a potato is also a tuber. So if you think about potatoes you’ve left in your pantry too long and the variety of ways that can go bad you can see what you’re dealing with.

Corinne

But if you dig them up, don’t they still freeze? Or you have to dig them up and keep them in your house? 

Virginia

So that’s why I did half of it. I dug them up. I let them dry. Usually I let them dry out for a bit. And then I packed them in boxes, in these milk crate type boxes, and I put them in layers of vermiculite or something like that. And then I meant to move the boxes to my garage, because my garage stays at about 50 degrees all winter, which is optimal dahlia winter temperature, but instead I left them in my potting shed, which is not insulated and so they just froze.

Corinne

Wow. So that is a lot of work.

Virginia

Look, if someone has been dieting on a high level and they need something to fill a lot of time, I really recommend dahlia farming or growing. I’m not farming. Because it’s a very intricate, nerdy hobby. Have I spent so much now because I keep losing my dahlias over the winter? Yes. I think I said last year that everyone had to hold me accountable to overwintering my dahlias and you didn’t do it. So I blame everybody else. And what I’m saying is this year, you’re going to hold me accountable. And I’m going to store them properly. And that’s gonna be that.

Corinne, are you gardening at all this year?

Corinne

I’m trying to have a demolition year. I’m actually doing this thing called Tree School where I’m working with this person who does garden landscaping stuff to come up with a plan and stuff. So recently I got all the weeds out of my front yard, my front yard is very small, and had mulch put down. 

My backyard is just a crazy mess. There is all this fencing that doesn’t need to be there. So right now, I’m trying to find someone to take out the fencing. Then I need to find someone to take out all the weeds. So I’m having a demolition year. And trying to take care of my existing trees. 

Virginia

What kind of trees do you have? 

Corinne

In the front yard, I have two ash trees, which are going to die because we have the ash borer. But hopefully, they’ll be around for a few more years. Then in the back I have an almond tree, which is not in great shape and has never produced almonds. But I’m trying to take better care of it. All of this stuff is pre-existing, I should say. It came with the house. I have a mimosa tree, which is really, really pretty. And there’s also pinon and some bird of paradise bushes.

Virginia

Well, I’m excited for your demolition year and your save the trees year. 

Corinne

Yeah, we’ll see how far I get.

Virginia

And then next year, you can join me in the dahlia obsession. Or you can just watch dahlia TikTok, which is pretty good I have to say. 

Corinne

All right. Do you have a Butter?

Virginia

I do. I’m going to do a garden Butter. I mean, it’s June. This is this is peak garden. My Butter is this garden apron I got from Target. Hilton Carter, who is a house plant influencer and seems like a delightful human being. He has a collection at Target of garden and houseplant gear. And this is a waxed canvas, dark green apron with leather straps, and it has pockets you can put your garden tools in. And it’s only $30 (on sale for $15!!) which, let me tell you, these garden aprons can be expensive. Like the reason I haven’t had one is I’m like, am I spending $90 on an apron? I don’t know. 

I’ve always been kind of meh about the idea of an apron because I garden without a bra in my pajamas first thing in the morning. I just go out. I don’t want gardening gloves. I’m like, am I going to put on an apron? But then I realized the beauty of the apron is number one, my phone fits in one pocket because I’m often having to keep track of time or listen to a podcast or something. And if I remember to put my tools back in the pockets at the end, I know where they are the next time I go gardening, which is a real leg up. When you’re like, “I have half an hour I can get some stuff done,” and then you spend 18 minutes looking for the tools. It’s very comfortable. I think pretty size inclusive? I was trying to gauge but I do have to pull the ties in pretty far to tie them, so I think it would fit a range. And yeah, it turns out it’s really handy to have a little garden tool apron. And then the other thing related is I just got a Hori Hori knife, which is a Japanese gardening tool, and it’s like a narrow trowel. But it’s very sharp. One side is a regular knife and one side is a serrated knife. And oh man, it is good times. You can dig and divide. I’m having a good time with that. 

Corinne

That’s really cool.

Virginia

What about you?

Corinne

Well one of my takeaways from the style challenge was that I wanted to do more accessories and so I just bought this ring. 

Corinne

It’s a glass ring and it has a little like opal chunk in it. I think it’s a man-made opal but I like it because it feels very pretty and fun, and also very affordable. It’s under $100. I think this was $60? The brand is called Struggle Glass. And she has a bunch of extended sizing stuff. I think she does drops, so if you visit the website stuff might be sold out but follow her on Instagram and she posts about when stuff is going up. So it’s a fun sparkly accessory that is not super expensive. 

It’s made out of the kind of glass that they use for bakingware, so it’s pretty sturdy, but we’ll see.

Virginia

That was my question. I assumed it was plastic because I would never trust myself to have a glass accessory and not have it end in tragedy. 

Corinne

Yeah, I have definitely been like, am I scratching this? I don’t know. We’ll see. But so far I’m enjoying it.

Virginia

This is very cool. Her work is gorgeous. Well, I want to hear how you do with a glass ring before I got one but I’m excited.

Corinne

Yeah, I’m excited, too.

---

The Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith (follow me on Instagram) and Corinne Fay who runs @SellTradePlus and Big Undies—subscribe for 20% off.

The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe.

Our theme music is by Jeff Bailey and Chris Maxwell.

Tommy Harron is our audio engineer.

Thanks for listening and for supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism!

ASDAH’s purpose is to create the conditions for people of all sizes, particularly those most impacted by systemic anti-fat bias, to have equitable and barrier free access to the care and healthcare resources we need to support our well-being. ASDAH educates health care providers about medical anti-fat bias and advocates for health care that aligns with the Health at Every Size approach. You’re probably familiar with the term Health at Every Size or HAES. Angel and Ani join me today to talk about how HAES has evolved over the years and what it has gotten wrong—and what their new framework of care for Health at Every Size looks like. 

If you have struggled with questions about Health at Every Size—and about weight and health in general—I think you will learn a lot from this episode.

With the help of paid subscribers, Burnt Toast supports ASDAH with monthly donations, and both Ani and Angel asked me to donate their honorariums as podcast guests today to ASDAH as well. But if you find this conversation valuable, we would love for you to support ASDAH directly. Donations help them to continue to develop Health at Every Size curriculums for higher education institutions, and medical schools, and to build out their HAES provider database, so we can all find weight inclusive health care providers near us.

Support weight-inclusive healthcare!

PS. If you’re enjoying the podcast, make sure you’re following us (it’s free!) in your podcast player! We’re on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, and Pocket Casts! And while you’re there, please leave us a rating or review. (We like 5 stars!)

Angel

I’m Angel Austin and I am the advocacy and community leader for ASDAH. I started out on the board, and eventually ended up where I am today as advocacy and community leader.

I just really love working with the organization because it’s in such alignment with my life, and my purpose. I also run Sacred Space for Fat Bodies, an organization I created just because I needed self-care experiences that weren’t accessible to me in the world, because I’m an infinifat person. It was in the heart of the pandemic, though, so I had to take a hard pivot and start providing that space online. It was through doing that that I learned more about ASDAH and came to be involved with that work.

Ani

And I’m Ani Janzen. I’m the ASDAH operations and projects leader. I have been doing fat activism and Health at Every Size advocacy work for about ten years. And I actually started it with my own organization locally in the Twin Cities of Minnesota, the Radical Health Alliance. My very first foray into activism was community organizing and creating what we call the Twin Cities Fat Community, which is now over 1,000 people strong and has been going for like seven or eight years. I started with ASDAH back in 2018, on the board of directors, and have participated in much of the transformation that you’ve seen.

For those of you who have followed along with ASDAH’s journey, we used to be a completely volunteer led organization. That factor in addition to other factors created an atmosphere where those with lots of privilege ended up being the decision makers and leaders of the org, because who has time and energy to volunteer their labor? It tends to be focused on the more privileged end of the spectrum. There was a moment in ASDAH’s history where there were almost no fat people on the board. That just really struck me as an issue, as a fat person. I had never really imagined myself in that kind of role before, but I had to put myself out there. I wanted to see what could happen. I feel very privileged to have gotten to work alongside the folks that have really put Black, superfat and other BIPOC and multiply marginalized folks at the forefront of our organization. 

Virginia

We are here to talk about the new Health at Every Size framework of care which ASDAH released a few months ago. But before we get into where we are now, I do want to back up a little bit and talk about how Health at Every Size originated.

I mean, for myself, learning about the initial HAES framework was one of my first steps out of diet culture. HAES is an entry point for lots of folks. But that doesn’t mean it has always been the right entry point, or the best version of itself. 

Ani

Health at Every Size has very long and complicated history. We really trace our lineage back to the 1960s and 70s for what specifically became the the ideas of Health at Every Size. It’s really important to remember that there have always been counter narratives to what it means to be healthy, what it means to be fat, and beauty ideals. And a huge portion of these ideas existed before they became codified into Health at Every Size, particularly in Black, disabled, superfat and infinifat communities. Those conversations were happening probably eons before The Fat Underground kicked off what eventually became what now exists as Health at Every Size. 

But back to The Fat Underground, they started in the late 60s and 70s. This was a form of activism that came out of all of the civil rights unrest of that era. These activists saw the need to be talking specifically about body size in addition to other oppressions that activism was becoming more organized around during that era. So The Fat Underground talked about a lot of things related to fat and fat activism, but one of the things that they were very critical of was the medical industrial complex, which is what we call it today. 

At that time, and still today, fat folks were not getting proper treatment, not getting medications, not getting care beyond being told to lose weight. So The Fat Undergroundd pushed back against that and raised awareness about why this was a problem. Then over time, as we get into the late 70s, the 80s, and the 90s, we see a lot of health care professionals start to learn from these folks, start to pick up pieces of this and more organization starts to happen. 

And eventually, folks start to say, “We need a term for this. We want to name this in some way.” And Health at Every Size is the name that came out of that conversation.

Initially, there was no specific organization. ASDAH didn’t exist at that time. We were established in 2003. So there were several versions of what they called the Health at Every Size approach, or Health at Every Size tenets. I think I have a historical account of at least three or four different versions of these through that that time period. But what’s really notable about the 80s and 90s and the early aughts is that the life enhancing movement principle and the eating for wellbeing principle started to become synonymous with Health at Every Size. 

The other three principles, which were more focused on access and breaking down systemic barriers—those kind of got lost in the mix. I think that was due to a lot of factors, but one of the big ones was that what was publishable, what was easily consumable by the mainstream, was the principles of “eating for wellbeing instead of weight loss control,” and “life enhancing movement instead of weight control.”

Virginia

I have to say, I think I’ve been complicit in that, as a journalist covering this. Intuitive eating, joyful movement —those were the stories I could get editors interested in and the other pieces of the conversation for so many reasons felt like a harder sell. Angel, is anything you want to add to this?

Angel

As a person coming in new to this, it’s been really interesting to see the shift and even to learn the history. It just kind of blew my mind. I know it’s going to be an ongoing education. I’m excited to see the world learn, but it’s an ongoing education even for myself. 

Virginia

Talk a little bit about what inspired this. What were the big things you wanted to change when you sat down to re envision the framework?

Ani

We knew from the get go, that it was problematic to have “eating for wellbeing” and “life-enhancing movment” raised to the level of being called a principle. My personal fat activism journey, I was very lucky that even though Health at Every Size was also one of my early entry points to this work, I very quickly got plugged in to the world of folks like Cat Pausé and Deb Burgard, who were integrating the more radical liberation ideologies into their work. My introduction to Health at Every Size was Lindo Bacon’s book Health at Every Size. That really pushed me to go further and deeper. 

So I had been thinking about and trying to reconcile the healthism that comes out in the advocacy of Health at Every Size and how I still felt that there was a core to what Health at Every Size—where it came from, and what it stood for—that was still valuable and important. 

As someone who was going through a health care education to become a dietitian, and then eventually a public health professional, I knew that change needed to happen in these spaces. I felt that Health at Every Size could and should still have a role in that. But I was also hearing and trying to integrate these arguments about isn’t Health at Every Size healthist and a lot of the other critiques about Health at Every Size, which honestly kind of ended up landing on those two principles of eating for wellbeing and life enhancing movement. 

So one of the things that really guided our work was going all the way back to the basics. What does it mean for this to be a principle? So we literally looked at the definition of what is a principle, and we could no longer stand on the ground that those two were principles. They were not applicable to every single fat person’s pursuit of adequate care and well being. 

Virginia

Can you say a little more about that? Or Angel, feel free to jump in! What about those concepts are not applicable to every fat person? 

Angel

We’re talking about eating for wellbeing and joyful movement. It’s problematic because of the discussion around food and how that’s generally applied when it comes to fat people. And then, joyful movement. I think around movement, very honestly, sometimes it’s not joyful. Especially for very fat people, superfat and infinifat people. It’s something that has been problematic and has been used in harmful ways in the past for us. Feel free to add, Ani.

Ani

I think there’s a lot of nuance that has to go into both of those in a very individualistic way. If health is not a moral pursuit, if health is not what makes you a good person, then no one has to pursue eating for wellbeing or life-enhancing movement in any way, shape, or form, whether that’s for weight control or not. 

If health is not a moral obligation, then does anyone need to pursue any healthy behaviors in order to be worthy of and deserve access to care through the healthcare system or through any, hopefully, future care system that we envision and create in the future? And the answer to that for us—after listening and learning from so many liberationists, specifically not Health at Every Size advocates, but liberationists—was no. People can pursue anything in their life. And no matter what happens, they’re still deserving of care and treatment and wellbeing through through what is currently our healthcare system. We hope to see that obviously change in the future. 

Angel

They fall too perfectly into some sort of morality, like Ani was saying. Eating for wellbeing—it’s just a slippery slope. So we just wanted to get that removed and the possibility of that situation happening. I can speak for myself, when I talk about eating for wellbeing or joyful movement, it does put me back in the mind-frame of the days that I did use both eating and joyful movement to do severe damage to myself and my body. That’s something that we don’t ever want to support or provide for the community. 

Virginia

I think that’s such a powerful reframing for folks. And I hope for folks listening, it feels liberating to think “Oh, I don’t have a moral obligation to love moving my body.” You can’t force people to love things or force people to eat in certain ways. You can see so quickly how, even though it felt like it was reframing, that was a response to diet culture. It still has that control element to it.

So okay, so those two are off the list of principles. Now talk to us about the new principles? What are we looking at now?

Ani

Our new Health at Every Size principles—we have four now instead of five. And of those four, I think they’re still really reflective of the original spirit of the earlier versions of the principles. But we did want to make sure that like certain things do not get lost in the conversation. 

So our principles are: 

Health care is a human right for people of all sizes, including those at the highest end of the spectrum. 

Care is fully provided only when free from anti-fat bias and offered with people of all sizes in mind. 

Wellbeing care and healing are resources that are both collective and deeply personal. 

Health is a sociopolitical construct that reflects the values of society.

Virginia

Okay, so healthcare is a human right for people of all sizes. I think we’ve touched on that a little bit in terms of, eating and exercise cannot be things we have to do to earn access to health, right? 

This feels like the core of a lot of anti-fatness. When I go out into mainstream media outlets and talk about these things one of the most common troll responses is the “this is a drain on our healthcare system” myth. So how are you finding that principle is being received specifically from healthcare providers, who we know have such high levels of anti-fat bias kind of built into the profession? 

Ani

I think most healthcare professionals got into their fields because they wanted to help people and it gets lost in the interpretation and the execution of care. Healthcare actually creates the barriers for people to get to get appropriate treatment.

Virginia

I’m just thinking of different doctors I’ve interviewed over the years, or who send me long emails after they read my work. There’s this perception of “the non-compliant patient,” which is really hard to get people past. This feels like the core mindset shift that needs to happen. Why is there even an idea of compliance? Why is the healthcare system something we comply with, we have to be obedient to? It is such a such a wildly negative framing.

Ani

And what counts as compliant or not compliant is so incredibly biased based on mainstream ideas of what is acceptable behavior. So you’ll notice no doctor is mad at the patient who comes in after a car accident, right? No doctor is saying you all should stop driving cars, even though accidents and injuries are one of our biggest causes of death. We’re not shaming them because they got into a car. We’re not denying them care or surgeries because they were in a car accident. 

So when we start to unpack that a little bit, we start to very quickly see the double standard. We consider athletes to be so healthy, but a lot of what they engage in is really dangerous activities that put their ACLs at risk, their elbows at risk, their shoulders at risk. For football, head injuries. 

Some people have spoken out about some of these things, especially the head injury risks to kids. But by and large as a society, we have just accepted sports as a totally good and appropriate behavior. And I’m not saying that we shouldn’t accept these things as just normal parts of our society, because they are. 

But when you start to realize that living life is a risk and no one is asking people to stop doing those other things, it becomes kind of absurd that we would ever consider denying care to someone. Even if we could prove that they control their body size—which is a whole other conversation—but even if that were the case, why would we deny someone care because they have undertaken things that might not be 100 percent healthy?

Angel

I was just thinking about some of the things that are happening in the world right now in our community. One of those is something that we covered recently, in one of our events, was the Obesity Bill of Rights. And I was just thinking about the long list of people that have come in to support that and how I would just love to have a moment to share our principles or to think of ways to get this in front of them. 

Because at its heart, I get what they’re doing. Classifying quote, unquote, obesity as a disease—I get it. But there’s still so much bias steeped in that work and it’s so insidious. It’s frustrating because it’s still about, “I’m fat, I’m broken, I’m wrong, fix me.” And what our principles say is that no matter who you are, you’re a human being, you exist, you deserve care. 

I’ve had situations in my own life where I’ve been treated horribly, obviously. Imagine having an ambulance called for me because I had whatever happen, and they were like, “Well, we can’t help her because she’s too fat.” Or we can’t put her in the ambulance because there’s no way we can, you know? I’ve had to undergo some wild stuff to get into an ambulance in my body. But they got me in an ambulance and this type of thing happens a lot in ways that are so harmful to us, as individuals.

I’m just so glad that our principles are in the world and that we can continue to figure out ways to express the concept of healthcare is a human right, for any human no matter who they are, whether they are a football player that’s in perfect health or a fat person who can’t get out of the house or whatever. 

No matter who you are, no matter where you exist on that spectrum, you deserve to be cared for. And to get the care, you need, not just to be accommodated, but to be cared for now, in a way that is affirming to you. And it’s just real tricky. It’s nuanced. But I’m just really glad it exists in the world.

Virginia

That distinction you’re making of not just be accommodated, but to be cared for—that feels so crucial. I mean, it’s so obviously not health-promoting if someone can’t get in an ambulance. Clearly, access to healthcare is being blocked in that situation. It’s enraging. So I really appreciate you sharing that and emphasizing that distinction, because I think that’s what I also encounter when I’m talking to medical professionals either personally or in my work as a journalist. They’re kind of like, “well, if we have to get out the bigger blood pressure cuffs we will…” as opposed to, “we are thinking about how to build healthcare to welcome all people.” That’s such a different framing. 

Angel

We talk about this a lot in disability activism as well. I saw a video of this gentleman who was in a wheelchair and essentially, he was calling out folks who had developed a conference he attended. He’s like, “I thank you for the ramp. I really appreciate that you allowed me to get into the building. But then what happens once I get here? How am I made to feel once I get inside the building?”

I think that is at the heart of what we’re moving toward with the revision of these principle. It’s not just let’s get you in, get you through the doors. It’s how do we treat you in a compassionate way? And give you all that you need as a human and meet your needs once you get through the door? 

Virginia

And recognize that you are the expert of your own body. That you are not just a problem to be solved, but a person who knows what they need and needs to be listened to, as an equal partner in the health conversation. 

Angel

Exactly, exactly. That I can tell you what I need and that what I tell you has value. And I’m not to be dismissed, you know? When a person tells you what they need, we need medical professionals to hear and to not just kind of blow us off. And I just think that that’s a huge part of what it is that we’re trying to do. It’s not just have the right size cuff, but all of the layers, you know? All the points that we want people to understand and speak to. Human rights and healing, wellbeing, care and healing, are resources that are both collective and deeply personal. You can’t treat somebody and not treat them as a person. You can’t treat just a physical being. You have to treat them where they are and give them what they need in a more full way, more encompassing way. 

Virginia

What you’re saying takes us back to the fourth principle: Health is a sociopolitical construct that reflects values of society. So much of what’s going wrong here is the way we are currently defining health. I would love if you all could talk a little more about the current definition of health and how that needs to change. 

Ani

Our current ideas of health in our mainstream society have really influenced our current health care system, which would include the research and the professional organizations that create recommendations that influence healthcare practice—all of those things together, are the medical industrial complex. 

And the ideas about health that come out of these systems are highly individualistic. There’s a belief that you either create good health for yourself, or you create poor health for yourself. On the other side of that coin, you have the solutions to your health conditions in your own hands, since it’s an individualistic pursuit to heal yourself as well, which is healthist. That term healthism, the definition of it is that we create health as something that is completely an individualistic pursuit. 

And this is appealing, right? It is appealing to think that we can prevent healthcare issues. That we can control our fate as human beings and that we can control adverse events that are happening in our lives. It is not fun to think that you might be going down a health condition path that doesn’t have a resolution or solution. 

Unfortunately, the reality of a lot of healthcare conditions, especially in today’s world where we have cured a lot of the more acute stuff, or we have good solutions for, that is that we end up with chronic disease. That’s the thing that happens when a society gets to experience aging. 

So on one hand, it’s a really good thing as a society that we have gotten to that point in medicine. And on the other hand, it can be really frustrating to live decades of your life with a chronic illness, pain, or condition. 

For us, this principle was important to name so that we can continue to push back on those individualistic notions of health and well being. But you can see in our other principle, we also name that wellbeing, care, and healing are deeply personal. Each individual comes with our own experiences, culture, values, belief systems that influence what it means to us to pursue wellbeing care, healing or health.

Virginia

I mean, I was just thinking about how many different health things in my life I have assumed that I could personally solve. Like, I can figure out the cause of my migraines. I can figure out what to do about my knee pain. That’s just where we’re trained to go. It’s a really radical mindset shift.

Ani

It takes a lot of practice to make that mindset shift and to also realize that that mindset shift does not mean that we’re throwing out all of medical science’s accomplishments over the many, many decades. It doesn’t mean that we think antibiotics don’t serve an important purpose.

Virginia

We love vaccines, we love medicine! But what a difference it would be if rather than thinking, “I have to go on a personal odyssey to solve this and if I can’t keep up with my exercise or my eating it’s my failing,” if instead, we could say “This is happening to me because I’m part of this larger society that’s not supporting individual care.” If you could recognize the system in play. Again, I think it’s quite liberating because you realize it’s on on me that we all deserve something different and better here. 

Angel

It’s more tools in our arsenal to be able to manage all of this that we might not have had before. More language, more things, more ways that help us ask the questions that we need to ask, so that we can get the care that we need. 

Virginia

Okay, I know this question will come up for listeners: Eating well and joyful movement are no longer in the framework as core principles. How should we think about those concepts as individuals, but also as a larger system?

Ani

What we heard from the people who are most harmed by medical anti-fat bias was, “Hey, these ideas about eating and movement were some of what helped me on my journey to experience wellbeing for myself.” And there was worry and consternation about whether or not these would still be embraced by ASDAH and Health at Every Size.

So it was important to make sure that there was a space for these things in the greater scheme of what it means to either offer Health at Every Size care or pursue Health at Every Size wellbeing for yourself. So in our framework, we have a section called “tools that support wellbeing and healing without contributing to oppression.” And under that aspect of the framework is where we see eating for wellbeing and life-enhancing movement to have a home.

Virginia

So it says: “Relearning tools coopted by the weight loss industry like nutrition and physical activity, as well as learning the tools to help our patients reframe their relationship with food and movement in alignment with their values.” It’s putting them in their rightful place. They were the whole story before. 

Ani

I really liked that we call them tools now, right? You don’t pick up a hammer for every job that you need to get done. But sometimes the hammer is useful. So that, to me, is what eating and movement are. Sometimes, for some people, in some circumstances, these are useful. But not always, not universal.

Angel

I think the core of it is autonomy, too. Like I have control to do what I want to do, when I want to do it, how I want to do it, as I deem necessary.

Virginia

When you talk about autonomy, when you talk about tools: Is there sometimes a place for intentional weight loss for folks who decide that’s the right answer for them? How do you think about that?

Ani

We are here for all fat people to access care, and that includes people who pursue intentional weight loss.

If we get into the more nuanced part of that conversation, which is, is there a role for a Health at Every Size health care provider to support weight loss pursuits? I would say that there is room for a lot of different philosophies and approaches under that question. The thing that there is not room for is pushing weight loss, uplifting weight loss as the solution, or using weight loss or the BMI as a gate to access other forms of care. Those things I think I can categorically say there is not room for. I’m trying to think of a nuance there. 

Like, weight does matter in certain things, right? We need to prepare appropriate starting dosages for anesthesia. Weight influences how you might get care, but it should not decide whether you get care. 

That said, with the rise of Wegovy and other weight loss drugs, as well as the ongoing offering of bariatric surgeries, that is where I think that our future trainings are going to help providers come to grips with what they personally feel is their ethical path to helping patients in the future.

I think that because our current system is so problematic, there’s not an easy answer to this. We know that many people are trying to pursue a surgery that they consider elective, but what exactly is an elective surgery? And when it’s elective like that, they can put a lot more gates up, and oftentimes they put a BMI restriction up. 

So what happens if you have a transgender patient who is five pounds from the cut-off that would get them access to gender affirming surgery, and they are currently in a body that creates such profound mental health issues? You have to balance those things on an individual basis. This is where we can lean back onto our tools. We have informed consent. So we’re going to tell that patient what can they expect with the various options that exist for weight loss. We’re going to be real with them that you might lose weight and you might gain it right back. But that might serve that client’s purpose perfectly, to get them care in their insurance network. So I don’t think that there is a clearcut answer to that question. 

I think that for some providers, their ethical alignment might have to be that they refer that patient somewhere else for weight loss services. But I think that there’s room for a Health at Every Size professional to prescribe a GLP-1 or assist with a lifestyle—big air quotes around all these terms—intervention.

Virginia

That is helping me think through some some sticking points I’ve been having in my own brain. Angel, anything you want to add to that? 

Angel

No, I’ll totally concur. It’s so subjective. And to have a blanket answer just doesn’t serve anybody. 

Virginia

And it’s a mistake that some Health at Every Size folks made in the past, right? Was to be too never, never, never weight loss, to the point of ignoring these nuanced situations.

Angel

Well, it’s a problem too, in the community. With regard to activism, I’ve seen it happen where a person wasn’t even trying to pursue weight loss, lost weight, and was simply kicked out or canceled, so to speak, because their body changed. And I’ve been called out for even saying that fat people should be able to move and enjoy the benefits of movement. 

Because we’re so programmed, even the people that are in the work are so programmed to see it as such a bad thing that your body changes—it can change in any way. But can you be open to what those changes mean? And understanding how they happen at a high level instead of deciding what it is based upon the information that we’ve been programmed to believe. 

Virginia

It always confuses me how that isn’t so clearly just another form of policing of fat people’s bodies to get really worked up about those changes.

Angel

Yep. It’s changing though. I see that it’s very slowly shifting. And I’m grateful that ASDAH is in the mix. I think we really are on the forefront, and trailblazing.

Virginia

I know the framework is really designed as a roadmap for healthcare providers. But of course, a lot of us don’t live anywhere near a Health at Every Size doctor. How can we use elements of this when we’re advocating for ourselves in medical settings?

Angel

At ASDAH what we’ve been kind of grappling with over the last year and a half or so is streamlining our focus to who are we actually serving. I think what we’ve kind of come down to, what we’ve drilled down to, is the idea that we want to use this framework to support the people who serve the people that are the most oppressed and marginalized in the medical industrial complex. So, while we’re thinking about ways that we can create tools for both the health professionals that we serve, specifically and that also for the community that is served by these health professionals. 

But our main focus is, with this framework especially, actually having something that they can use when they think about how they support their patients or clients or whomever it may be. I will honestly say that as much as I’m grateful for the revision of the principles, the framework is the most exciting part. The new framework is really exciting to me just because I haven’t seen anything like it ever. I think that is going to be a very important part of the work we do going forward, that that medical professionals can actually take and create treatment plans using. That’s what I hope that we are able to do in the future. What about you Ani?

Ani

I do think that one of the things that the framework can lend itself to is being used as a way to get ideas and language that a patient might not have had before. The reality is that there are a lot of healthcare professionals that have never even heard of Health at Every Size, but they might be semi or even fully aligned with what we stand for. 

We do hope to create a very robust choice of Health at Every Size aligned providers. But if if someone is only searching for Health at Every Size providers, they might come up empty, especially if they are in the Midwest states and rural areas, right? We know that there are huge gaps. There are certain states that are not represented at all on our listing at. 

But this framework could give someone some ways to develop questions to maybe find someone who is a little bit more closely aligned to the kind of care they want to receive. I think that people would actually maybe be pleasantly surprised to find the number—especially the new incoming doctors, they’re coming in with different lenses to this work. Even if they have not specifically thought about weight, size, and health or heard of Health at Every Size, they come with that practice of acceptance and inclusiveness and they see things just differently. 

So that kind of doctor, when they’re approached by a patient who says, look, weight loss is off the table for me, they might get absolutely no pushback and they might get fantastic care, even if that doctor has never heard of Health at Every Size. So, hopefully that framework can give somebody some guiding questions to find a provider that’s aligned for them. Or even to be able to parse what they do get from their doctor. Maybe coming out of a doctor’s appointment, they might be able to take a look at that list and go the way the doctor approached this isn’t aligned here or here. As individuals, it’s really important for us to be able to throw out what is not useful to us because the world is not going to ever completely align with your individual beliefs or needs. Even amongst Health at Every Size providers, you’re going to have different levels of of approaches to things. So I think that’s another important way that somebody could use the framework is to just say, I’m going to let this piece of it go and I’ll take what’s useful for me and move forward.

Virginia

I love that because so often you come out of those appointments feeling like you had a rug pulled out from under you, right? The doctor was so certain that this thing needs to happen or this is the way it needs to be. To have this, to use this framework as a check in for yourself of wait a second, okay. They said I have to cut out whatever carbs, but let me filter that advice through this framework and see where I land with that. That’s super, super useful. 

Angel

There are a lot of cool things that are happening right now in my life. But the one thing that gives me joy every day is my partner makes me a cup of this tea that is chai, lemon ginger, and peppermint. Yes, all three of those tea bags together in one thing. And I don’t know what he does to it, but it starts my day off so wonderfully. I love it so much. When I get off of this podcast, I’m going to have my tea for the day because I haven’t had it this morning. Every morning I just am so grateful for the way that tea just makes me feel.

Virginia

That’s so great. Ani, what about you?

Ani

Well, anybody who’s involved with ASDAH knows that I’m our resident reader. I’m always one with the books and the book recommendations. And I’ve been getting into fantasy lately. I read my first Brandon Sanderson, which, if you’re a fantasy fan, don’t come for me. I just read Tress, which is about a girl with really, really long hair. It’s a flipped fairy tale, so her love gets kidnapped by a witch and she goes off in pursuit, sailing like a pirate to go find him and rescue him and just has a ton of adventures along the way. It was written so beautifully, so creatively. Just a little, a little feminist fantasy fairy tale. So I highly recommend Tress.

Virginia

I don’t know Brandon Sanderson at all, so I’m not coming for you. And I think that sounds absolutely delightful. 

My butter is carrot cake, which I have realized is my favorite cake. And this is surprising because I’m a hardcore chocolate person when it comes to desserts and sweet things. Like, I don’t have time for your like sour gummies. That’s just not my jam. But my mom made me the most beautiful carrot cake for my birthday a few weeks ago. And the great thing about carrot cake is when you have leftovers, it’s also like an excellent breakfast cake an excellent snack. It’s just a great every time of day cake. It was so good, so I’m going to shout out carrot cake. 

Angel

Carrot cake is life.  Let me tell you about carrot cake real quick. My husband’s mom, she passed in 2019. She made the best carrot cake. Her cake was so good that they were asking for the recipe at her funeral. They were like nobody has it? I mean, that is a problem. We still haven’t found it. But that’s how good at cooking she was in her life. My husband ate it all his life. And we’ve still not found a carrot cake that tastes like hers.

Virginia

I’m very stressed out about this for you now! 

Angel

You’ll have to send me one of your mom’s. 

Virginia

My mom uses The Silver Palate Cookbook recipe. She swears by it. So I have it. But I hope you find her recipe though.

Well, thank you both so much. I’m so glad to have gotten to spend this hour with you both. And I really am just profoundly grateful for the work you’re doing. I think ASDAH is such an important piece of the larger fat liberation movement. Thank you so much. We all benefit.

Ani

We’re on all the social medias: Instagram, X, Youtube, Facebook, LinkedIn. If you want to become a member, you get a bunch of member benefits. But if the benefits are not suited for you, which they’re not for everybody, please consider becoming a monthly donor. This is how we make our work happen. So we would love to have you as either of those or just as a community follower.

Virginia

Burnt Toast is a monthly donor and proud to be one. So I encourage everyone in the community to think about joining us in that. it’s really great work. Thank you!

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The Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith (follow me on Instagram) and Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus, and Big Undies. 

The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe.

Our theme music is by Jeff Bailey and Chris Maxwell.

Tommy Harron is our audio engineer.

Thanks for listening and for supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism!

🧈🧈🧈It’s time for your June Extra Butter! Today we are giving you a behind-the-scenes look at how we make Burnt Toast. And yes, finally addressing some of the butter-related Internet rumors about Virginia’s personal life. 🧈🧈🧈

To listen to the full episode and read the full transcript, you’ll need to join Extra Butter, our premium subscription tier. THIS WEEK ONLY, Extra Butter is on sale for just $75 per year!

In addition to these monthly episodes (where we get into the GOOD stuff like why all the fat influencers are getting skinny, is Kids Eat In Color anti-diet? and post-divorce bodies), you’ll also get a comp to Cult of Perfect, occasional live thread discussions, and (coming soon!) dedicated Friday Threads.

Plus Extra Butter ensures that the Burnt Toast community can always stay an ad- and sponsor-free space—which is crucial for body liberation journalism. Join us here!

(Questions? Glitches? Email me all the details)

PS. If Extra Butter isn’t the right tier for you, remember that you still get access behind almost every other paywall with a regular paid subscription.

Corinne

Today is a really special episode of Extra Butter because we are celebrating three years of Burnt Toast. Virginia, can you believe it has been three years?

Virginia

It feels like it’s been forever and also no, not at all. It’s wild.

Corinne

How are you celebrating?

Virginia

Probably buy a plant. 

Corinne

Oh, yeah. I was going to say brownies. Or cake. 

Virginia

Oh, I should see if my mom wants to make me a butter cake!

Corinne

Oh my God. Yes!

Virginia

For people that don’t know, my mother is an amazing cake baker, and we have a family tradition where she takes requests to make elaborate cakes for many occasions, including the dumpling cake she just made for my sister’s baby shower. 

Corinne

It was extremely cute.

Virginia

Yeah, so three years is very cool and weird. We have definitely grown in ways I could not have predicted when I decided I was going to turn on paid subscribers. We had 700 people on the list. Now there are over 54,000. I have to not think about the numbers too much sometimes. It’s a big stage. 

But it’s it’s exciting! And I’m excited to dish a little today about how we make it happen. So we’re going to talk about how the podcast is made, we’re going to reflect a little bit on where we started, where we’ve come from, the journey of Burnt Toast. And we’re going to talk a little bit about the recent New York Times profile. 

Corinne

I thought the best place to start might be to talk a little bit about how Burnt Toast started. How did you get the idea to start a Substack? How did you know about Substack? What was your vision for the newsletter?

Virginia

Well, I have to give credit to who is the pre-you. She was my research assistant who worked with me a lot on my first book and various articles and things. We were doing a newsletter to market my first book on TinyLetter, but Jessica is younger and cooler than me and writes a great environmental Substack called Pinch of Dirt that I encourage folks to check out. It’s very fun, especially if you like lots of hiking and nature writing. So Jessica was like, “The youths are on Substack.” And I was like, “What is a Substack.”

She migrated the list from TinyLetter over to Substack and helped me figure out what we were doing. And I remember her saying, sort of in passing at that point, “Oh and lot of people are turning on paid subscriptions and maybe you’ll want to do that sometime.” And at that point, I was still locked into “I write for mainstream media outlets.” I was just like, no, why would I do that? 

And then I started following a lot of Substacks, and reading more and it became, Wait, why would I not do this? Because I was also becoming increasingly frustrated with doing the kinds of stories I wanted to do at mainstream media outlets. And then I lost two big anchor clients in 2019 and 2020. I’d been writing a column about kids and food and body image for the New York Times Parenting section. And I had been doing a lot of work for Medium. Medium was great. I had great editors there and they would let me do pretty in-depth diet culture investigations, but then they changed their whole structure and were like, “LOL we don’t pay writers anymore.”

I was like, “Well, it’s interesting because I am a writer who still needs to be paid, so that won’t work.”Then The Times reorganized and cut my column, which is just the perennial freelancer thing where you have a couple of anchor clients, they run their course and then you pivot and start hustling up some new anchor clients. And I had been doing this for almost 20 years, I was so tired. This was also January 2021. That’s when I was like, Let’s make Burnt Toast into a thing. I spent about six months working on it before I turned on paid subscriptions that June.

Corinne

And how did the podcast start? Did you always know that that was in the future of Burnt Toast?

Virginia

No, not at all. I would have told you when I started, “I’m absolutely never doing a podcast.” My best friend and I had done a podcast together, Comfort Food. We did 80-something episodes and it was really fun, but we made zero dollars on it. It cost us quite a lot of money to make because we had to pay an audio editor, and it was just a ton of time.

It’s really hard to start an independent podcast and make money at it, because you have to get your numbers so big to get advertisers interested, or to get picked up by a podcasting network. Podcasting as an industry has gotten really messy.

So during 2020 when both of us had no childcare we were like, “we have got to put Comfort Food to bed,” which was the right decision. I really liked making a podcast, but I was like, “There’s no way to do it that makes financial sense for my life.” Maybe in retirement or something. 

But soon after I became working on Burnt Toast more wholeheartedly, Substack was like, “We are in the podcasting game!” And because they knew I’d done a podcast, they reached out and were like, you should really do a podcast for Burnt Toast. And I was like, no thank you, I would not like to do that. But then they covered the cost of Tommy, our amazing audio engineer, for the first year. So I knew I could make it sound good. And Tommy is amazing to work with and makes it so much easier.

Also: Part of what makes a successful Substack is publishing multiple times a week. I cannot churn out a reported essay or a first-person essay more than once a week. Honestly even that is a big lift, so I knew that I needed another type of content in the mix.

But I would say for at least the first year, I was still like, is the podcast working? Or is this just so much more work? Are we getting anything out of it? Once we were able to start adding paywalls to the podcast episodes, it started to make a lot more sense to do. Because it’s impossible to grow an independent podcast to big numbers, but if you already have your newsletter community, then it’s a different thing. So we’re never going to be Maintenance Phase—and we’re not trying to be Maintenance Phase. It’s a different model. 

Then of course once I started making it with you—I think that was the other point where I was like, “Well now I really want to make the podcast.” It’s so much more fun to do it with someone.

Corinne

It has been really fun! Should we talk a little bit about how the podcast and newsletter get made? 

Virginia

Or how many texts I send you a week?

Corinne

I mean, texting works for me. How do you find people to bring on the podcast?

Virginia

You and I are constantly brainstorming. You’ll see something, I’ll see something. We do get pitched a lot, too, but I think we’re a hard podcast to pitch. I get sent a lot of books, so I’m always looking at authors. And we want to support other fat activists and other feminists and folks working in these same spheres. Then also, we’ll get a reader question and we’ll be like, oh, who would be a good expert to answer that? Or like some crazy fatphobic thing happens in the media, right? 

Corinne

A news thing.

Virginia

We’ve started having editorial meetings now, too. So we’re more official. That’s an exciting recent development since our retreat. We stepped it up.

Corinne

How does production flow work? Like, once we have like an idea for a podcast? We kind of plan out like, “this week we’ll be running Indulgence Gospel.” And then how do we make it happen?

Virginia

We go over the calendar together in our editorial planning meetings, which are twice a month, plus we text all the time. I’m usually booking guest interviews, like one or two a month, whenever I’m like, crap, we’ve run out of guest interviews. Let me go book some more. You and I record Mondays. Any Monday we’re not having a meeting, we’re recording an episode.

Before we record, one of us writes an outline for the episode. If I’m interviewing a guest, I write up interview questions. For Indulgence Gospel, one of us dumps it all, all the questions we’re going to answer into a Google Doc. And then we record and then we send Tommy our recording files and Tommy puts them together through his wizardry into a master file. Then Corinne heroically wrestles that into a transcript using Otter. She doesn’t have to hand transcribe the entire interview. But AI still gives you plenty to do, I think.

Corinne

Yes, we use an AI transcription service that transcribes the recordings and then I go through and make it actual words. 

Virginia

Because whenever I interview another white lady, it doesn’t know who’s talking, and that kind of thing.

Corinne

I divide up who’s talking when and put in the names. I make it make sense. And then I will also just go through and mark where we should cut stuff, like asides in the conversation or somebody saying um six times—that’s usually me.

Virginia

Or “Absolutely, absolutely.”

Corinne

Or someone’s dog is barking, things like that. Then I send it back to Tommy and Virginia.

Virginia

And then I go through and do another ruthless pass where I’m usually meanest to myself. I’m trying to cut out all my Valley Girl speech so my mother doesn’t text me too much about how many times I say like and um and you know. Then Tommy’s always the nicest about it, and he’s like, “No, we don’t have to cut that many!”

Are you used to the sound of your own voice? 

Corinne

No.

Virginia

I’m pretty used to it but there are things I say that when I’m listening back—

Corinne

Yeah, the things I say over and over again drive me crazy. When I’m editing the transcript for myself, I do think I’m way harsher. 

Virginia

I think we’re harshest on ourselves. Sometimes Corinne will cut something and I’ll be like, no, put that back because that’s funny. But most of the time, it’s like cut, cut, cut, cut, cut. Get it down to something we can use. 

Then Tommy takes the Google Doc with all of the cuts and he makes those cuts in the audio file, and sends it back to us to approve. Meanwhile, Corinne is getting the cleaned up transcript into Substack. You do a lot of work there. 

Corinne

Yes, I edit it again to try and make it more readable. I take out even more weird verbal tics to make it easier to read.

Virginia

It’s interesting that editing for reading is actually different than editing for audio. You can leave in more verbal tics with audio because they’ll go by fast. But in a sentence that your eyes are going to go over, you have to take out all the likes and pauses and things. 

Corinne

Then I add photos and links.

Virginia

And I do another pass on it. So this is every episode. The recording happens whenever we can schedule with people, but then this process we’re talking about is spread out over the week before the episode runs. So on Wednesdays, which is the day before the episode runs, Tommy gets us the final audio. Corinne has the transcript draft in Substack. And I spend an hour or two doing a final pass and schedule it.

Transcripts are a ton of work, so I’m really glad so many of you do read them. It’s probably the thing we spend the most hours on, the bulk of the work. Which is weird to think about. 

And then, at the same time that we’re keeping a podcast going, we’re also always working on whatever essay I’m running on the Tuesday. That’s its own process. Usually a week before, I’m panic texting Corinne, “What am I writing about? What is that story idea I told you about three weeks ago that maybe I should write about but I forgot what it was?” And we brainstorm and then I write a draft and try to get you the draft by Thursday afternoon is my goal. And then you edit it. 

Corinne

I read through the draft and put it in Substack, make any notes for Virginia, and add photos. 

Virginia

Then Monday I do my final obsessive editing and we do a lot of texting about headlines usually. That’s a big focus. Headlines cannot be written alone. You need a sounding board.

Corinne

You’ve really become a Substack Headline expert, I feel.

Virginia

Really? Thank you. Years of  women’s magazine training. 

Corinne

Yes, that makes sense. 

Virginia

It translates. So we do a lot of thinking about headlines and paywall placement.

Corinne

Now that you’ve been doing this for three years, I’m curious how things have changed. How is the podcast different now than it was when you started? How is the newsletter different?

Virginia

The most fun difference is that now I do it with you! So, Jessica, who I adore, left and—when did she leave? 

Corinne

I was just thinking about that! I didn’t realize the podcast hadn’t been going on for now very long, because I think I started in October 2021. 

Virginia

So the first six months I was just muddling along. I had Jessica, who was fantastic. But this is less her world. She is a really amazing environmental reporter. 

So when Corinne came on board, I realized, having someone work on the newsletter with me who was also very in the community and gets the issues, would be so fun and useful. And I think makes this work a lot more collaborative and creatively satisfying. I really love that. So the podcast is something we’ve really grown together at this point. Indulgence Gospel has become its own thing and that’s the last year really.

Corinne

I mean, also, when I started I had a full-time day job, while also doing SellTradePlus.

Virginia

Yeah. And then when you left your day job, you were like, “Okay, I want to do more with this.” That transitioned us into a different thing, which has been really cool. So that’s a really big change. 

I think the other thing that I just did not predict and that’s so wonderful is the community! When you write for mainstream media outlets, you know who your reader is in this very abstract way. Women’s magazines would always be like, “our girl shops at The Gap.” And “our girl is career-focused!” There was this marketing rhetoric around who your reader was, what brands she shopped at, how many kids she had, whatever. That was helpful to a point, but not actually reflective of a real human being. 

The only other job I ever had that felt even remotely close to this was Seventeen Magazine, where teenagers did write to us all the time and as an editorial assistant, a big part of my job was answering reader emails. So I did talk to our readers and really feel connected to them. And I always missed that at every other place I ever wrote for. Especially as a freelancer, you’re just writing the piece. You’re not thinking as much about who the reader is, that’s the editor’s job. 

So when I started writing a Substack, I was intrigued by the idea that people were building these communities, but I did not think I would be very good at that. I did not think this would be something that people would want from me. I remember doing my first thread and being like, “Well, this will be awkward. No one wants to talk.” And it turns out, a lot of people love to talk! We have our regulars who I feel like I’m really getting to know in the comments section. And that is just spectacular to me and makes me feel really proud of the thing we’re all building together, you know? 

Corinne

It’s so interesting because in a lot of traditional media, like, for example, The New York Times, the comment sections are such a horrible place. And the comment section on Substack or on Burnt Toast specifically is so great. 

Virginia

So lovely. I mean, obviously, the fact that we limit it to paid subscribers helps. We just don’t have drive-by trolls very frequently. We have occasionally been like, “Well that person paid $5 just to yell at us.” And you know what, okay. We’ll take your five bucks. But that’s maybe three times total.

And whenever I do go out into the rest of the world, the response is so different. So it’s a real safe haven for me to have Burnt Toast. 

I always say, as a mom, my favorite thing is my kids’ relationship with each other and how that doesn’t really have anything to do with me. But I’ll just be like, oh my gosh, my kids! when they’re playing together. It makes me so happy. And my favorite favorite thing on Burnt Toast is when the comment section kind of takes on a life of its own and people are talking to each other, giving recs or when we did the where are you from post and people are organizing meetups. Like, what! That stuff makes me so happy. I’m just like, yes. Talk amongst yourselves. Find each other! That’s not something I ever thought I would be good at facilitating, or it’s not something I’d ever thought about doing, but it’s so satisfying.

Corinne

What about the scope of subject matter? Are there things we are talking about now that you’ve never thought you’d be writing about?

Virginia

There are two answers to that. I mean, one is that I initially thought I would only be able to write about body image, eating disorders, weight and health, like Health at Every Size, that sort of niche set of topics. And it’s fun that I’ve been able to be like, “Sometimes I’m going to do a gardening essay!” And obviously when we do reader surveys, it’s not like the most popular topic is the gardening content. But people are sort of happy to go along with like, oh, what conversation does Virginia want us to have? Sure, let’s talk about Stanley Cups. Let’s talk about 1000 Hours Outside, whatever. So that has been really satisfying 

Not that there was anything wrong with those core topics, but you can get to a point on a beat where you feel like you’re repeating yourself. Or like, “Am I really helping if we always come back to that?” So it’s fun, creatively, to be able to go in other directions. 

Then the other thing is, I come from what’s called service journalism. Every story you write for a women’s magazine or a parenting outlet, even if it’s an essay, not a reported feature, has to have a takeaway for the reader. It has to have some tips or some service sidebars. So I’m just used to thinking of my writing as something that’s going to help people do X, Y, and Z.

And that’s wonderful. This is not me hating on service journalism at all, I think it’s a really valuable genre of writing. But I’ve been interested over the last year in particular, the pieces that are getting the biggest responses are not that. It is more stuff like the Stanley Cup piece did great, or the Huberman Husband essay, which isn’t me telling you how to feed your kids or how to do a thing. It’s just cultural analysis. It’s a think piece, I guess. And those are super satisfying and hard and challenging for me to write, in a really good way. 

I talked about this a little bit in the piece I wrote about the response the snack cabinet got. I don’t know if I want to say I’ve been getting it wrong, but I think me giving a lot of prescriptive advice about how to feed kids was always a little bit of a wrong turn. Does that make sense?

Corinne

I mean, yes. Say more.

Virginia

Well, I think if we’re primarily here to work on advancing fat rights, then that’s a complicated topic. Because the personal is political. And the way you talk about food and your family dinner table does impact how your kids feel about their bodies and about other people’s bodies. So it is a place of doing activism. But because we also think of how we feed our kids as this health and nutrition issue, there was this kind of problematic thing of people applying a layer of “Virginia should be teaching us how to raise healthy eaters.” And that’s not my job or what I care about or what I’m qualified to do. 

I think this also speaks to my own evolution, as I’ve become more engaged in fat activism specifically, as opposed to just anti-diet culture more broadly. My first book is much more—I mean, it is an explanation of how we eat. So I’m not like, “How dare people think I have opinions about how we eat!” I wrote this book called The Eating Instinct. I get it. But I think that was part of me grappling with these larger conversations and then in response, I was getting asked really specific questions about what do I do when my kid doesn’t eat vegetables? I don’t think I was ever the right person to answer that question.

Corinne

Yeah, that makes sense. Like, because you wrote a book about eating, people look to you as an expert for advice. And then at some point, giving advice is almost at odds with the larger conversation about body autonomy. 

Virginia

And even that first book is a cultural exploration. It’s not a prescriptive “this is how to feed your kids” book.

Corinne

You’re not a public health professional or a nutritionist.

Virginia

I mean, I know you really want me to write about my snack cabinet.

Corinne

As a person with no kids, I do just find that stuff weirdly fascinating. Probably because I don’t have to face it on a daily basis!

Virginia

I mean, I don’t mind sharing with Extra Butter that when I wrote the essay about, "why is everyone trolling my snack cabinet?” I did first write a whole piece explaining, "here’s how I really use my snack cabinet.” And then I was like, “I’m not running it.” And Corinne was like, “Ok but can we run it next week?”

Corinne

I think deep down all of us just want someone to tell us what to do sometimes.

Virginia

But my whole thing is…that’s diet culture, right?

Corinne

That’s what we’re getting at. Advice and body liberation sometimes are at odds. 

Virginia

They really are. And I don’t think I understood that. Certainly not when I was writing and promoting my first book, but even in the first year or two of Burnt Toast I think I was still sorting that out. And- the places where people are going to get granular advice about how to feed their kids are often so saturated in diet culture and anti-fatness. So we do really need an another model. And I think those sources exist. I think it’s How to Raise an Intuitive Eater by Amee Severson and Sumner Brooks. I think it’s the most recent edition of Intuitive Eating. 

I am not the person to give those tools. I am more of the person to be like, “This is what it’s like trying to execute those tools in my own messy life.” And, “Oh, it’s not working for me. I don’t know what else we do.” And, “Let’s talk more broadly about this cultural message.” I’m here to talk about the culture of it, not the what do I think you should be doing? But I have veered into that lane at times. 

So I think I want to be doing less of that, even though I’m glad that there are some solid resources, like all those Burnt Toast Guides we made. I’m glad to have all that there, if it’s useful to people. But I just don’t want to be put in that box anymore, I guess. 

Corinne

Well, and I think the guides aren’t prescriptive advice really. They’re like, “Here’s a bunch of stuff you could consider.”

Virginia

Then I think the other thing is just, I feel like we have a lot more fun on Burnt Toast now. There’s more humor.

I do really value deep dives into research on weight and health. I think it’s very, very important. I’m very grateful to someone like

Ragen Chastain

who is doing it every single week. And I think I initially thought that’s where readers wanted me to stay. Like, let me explain again why the BMI is trash. Let me explain again causation versus correlation. And, again, I’m glad we have a lot of resources about that on the Substack. I think that’s really helpful. I’m glad we’ve done episodes about that.

And I’m glad that I can sometimes write about this TikTok thing or let’s do a style challenge. 

Maybe that’s, again, the women’s magazine person in me who has always been like, I want to do a little more of everything and have there be fun in it, too.

Corinne

Yeah, that makes sense. 

Virginia

You have helped me figure that out a lot, too. Corinne is very fun is what I’m saying.

Corinne

Extremely fun.

What have been some highlights from the past three years? Any guest interviews that have really stuck with you?

Virginia

Oh, man. This is like when someone asks what you’re reading and your mind just goes blank. I want to know yours first. 

Corinne

One for me that really stands out is Jessica Wilson. When I listened to her, I was just like, wow, my mind is really changing.

Virginia

That was one of the conversations that shifted me. I really don’t want to be giving prescriptive advice after she pointed out how much our own identities and biases impact the kind of advice we think we should give. When she was like, “Eating disorder treatment doesn’t work for Black women because this is a necessary part of survival,” I was just like, “Oh, okay, I truly know nothing. I can tell people nothing.” That was a really great one.

More recently, I’m very partial to the episode about American Girl dolls. 

Corinne

Yeah, that was incredible. 

Virginia

We definitely do talk about diet culture and how there has not been a fat American Girl doll. That’s important. And we looked at my childhood trauma around Samantha.

Corinne

Which was really fun. 

Virginia

With many embarrassing family photos. That was a really good one. Another really fun one I loved that was also super useful was Martinus Evans. He’s just a delight. So fun to talk to. And anytime we attack the fitness industrial complex, I feel like I’ve done a good day’s work.

Corinne

He was a great podcast guest. I also have really enjoyed some of the authors like Crystal Maldonado. Even when I haven’t read their books. Like, I haven’t read any Crystal’s books. They’ve been on my list for a long time.

Virginia

They are a treat. 

Corinne

I’m sure I will love them. But just really interesting to hear what she has to say even if you haven’t.

Virginia

I’m glad you say that. Listeners should know that author interviews are the lowest performers usually. And it really breaks my heart, as an author and someone who’s here to help platform these other really important authors doing good work. I’ve been starting to think about, how do we change up the format of bringing authors on the show?

It doesn’t make sense to me, because when we do Friday Threads about books, they are super popular. We are a community of readers. People want to share what they are reading and talk about books. And for whatever reason, the author interviews tend to be some of the lower downloaded ones. I don’t know what it is.

Corinne

I always wonder if it’s like, people don’t want to listen if they haven’t read the book yet? 

Virginia

Maybe we need to be clear about no spoilers? But I mean, Fresh Air! Terry Gross interviews authors all the time. 

Corinne

Yeah, it’s true. There are podcasts, though, where if I’m just dipping in, I want to listen to someone that I’ve heard of.

Virginia

I think it’s also a tension with podcasts, especially when you have a format like ours, where sometimes it’s two hosts chatting and sometimes it’s guest interviews. I think the two hosts chatting often works against the guest interviews because people are like, but I want to hear the friends hang out! I want to hang out with you guys! And then the new person comes in. And everyone’s like, “Well, I don’t know about this new person.” That’s not author specific. That’s just guest specific. Like, even though guest episodes are always free and so the whole list can get them and our episodes are always paywalled, we get way more comments on Indulgence Gospel episodes than we do on guest interviews. I think it’s just it’s fun to chat with your friends.

Corinne

Do you have a favorite essay that you’ve written?

Virginia

I really love a piece I wrote last summer about going to The Plaza with my younger kid and digging into the history of Kay Thompson and understanding Eloise as a kind of radical feminist while also a problematic white lady. It’s all there. That was maybe a little bit of a quieter essay, but it just was such a joy to write. It was really fun doing the research for that one and understanding how are we manufacturing girlhood? How are we marketing this pink princess concept when in fact Eloise is not any of that?

Corinne

That was a cool one for me, too, because I got to look up old photos of her and that was really fun. 

Virginia

Yeah, good photo research. What about you? Any essays?

Corinne

I like the ones about eating dinner. 

Virginia

The ones I just said I’m not writing anymore?

Corinne

Yeah. Like dinner table rules and reading at dinner.  

Virginia

Notes on Single Mom Dinner? I do like that piece because I feel like I captured a little bit that feels like a scrapbook for me. I’ll read that in 10 years and be like, oh,that year when we were reading at the dinner table. I have affection towards it. I don’t know, I’m curious to hear what other folks think about this. 

Corinne

I think what part of what I like about those is is not that it’s prescriptive advice, but that I’m peeking into how other people do stuff. I’m not a parent. I just think it’s interesting to see what other people are doing. And I feel like sometimes how people are feeding their kids is helpful for me in feeding myself. 

Virginia

I hear that. I’m curious to hear what other people think about that stuff. I think I’m feeling, as I said in the piece about the snack cabinet, like I cannot keep explaining myself to the world, as a fat mom being asked to justify that. And if I had written a piece about “look how healthy we are like, look what a good job I’m doing,” then that doesn’t make space for the fact that you can be a really good mom who’s not making healthy dinners. Fat people don’t have a moral obligation to do all of that.

Corinne

Right. And you have faced way more scrutiny than any normal person does, or should have to.

Virginia

It’s hard for me to tell how much is me responding to that, versus how much am I really feeling like this doesn’t align with my fat activism body liberation values. But I do think there’s a little tension there that I’m still trying to figure out how to navigate as a writer.

But those dinner pieces are fun to write.

Corinne

Okay! Let’s talk about The New York Times article.

I’m curious to hear a little of the background on how that came to be. How did it work? How much time did this person spend with you? How does being profiled work?

Virginia

This was definitely the most in-depth experience I’ve ever had. I’ve been profiled a few other times and it can vary from basically a 30-minute Zoom conversation with someone to much more time intensive. When The Cut profiled me before the book came out, Erica Schwiegershausen came and spent the day with me as well. We went to lunch and then the photoshoot was happening at the same time. We were just chatting extensively throughout. So it was an interview/photoshoot combo and it was like five hours. And I really loved how that piece turned out.

Corinne

Was she recording you the whole time?

Virginia

Yes. I’ve been on the journalist side of this, too and I want to say, it’s very tiring reporting. You do record. You bring your phone, some people bring a backup recorder as well. And you still take some notes while you’re talking to them. But you’re really just listening super intensely trying to figure out what you’re going to be able to use and where you need to follow up. Then you have to go home and go through just hours and hours of recording to find what’s good. There’s often a lot of nonsense.

When I used to do a lot more in person reporting, pre-COVID, I would always just be so stressed out. Because often the best conversation would be happening when we’re in a restaurant and it’s really loud. And then I’m like, I’m not getting the recording! Try to remember, try to remember. It’s an exhausting day, on both sides. 

For The Times piece, we had a pretty extensive conversation off-record ahead of time discussing what the piece would be, and what my boundaries would be, and all of that. And then she came and spent about five hours at my house, first hanging out just with me, and then my kids got home from school, and she stayed through dinner. So she was around all afternoon till like seven o’clock. And then we had multiple follow up phone calls—like probably another four hours over multiple phone calls and texts. 

It’s a little odd having someone in your home. That feels vulnerable to me, always. And it’s a little awkward. She wanted to get this slice of life of me with my kids. So I was thinking the whole time, “Please have good days!” Like, no  judgment on my kids. Kids are allowed to have bad days. And I was like, “What if this is one of the days when a kid comes home and just needs to have a meltdown?” They deserve that privacy.

I did talk to my kids quite a lot ahead of time. I asked, are you comfortable with having this person here? What ground rules do you have? What don’t you want talked about? I got a lot of consent from the kids ahead of time to make sure they felt okay about it. But there’s also the valid argument that children cannot give informed consent because they are minors. 

So for both of these in-person experiences, the reporters were absolutely lovely in person and really fun to hang out with. It was like talking to a friend. And again, I know as a journalist, you’re deliberately cultivating that atmosphere because people are much chattier and more open when they feel relaxed with you. 

So it’s very weird for me having been on both sides of it to notice like, oh, I’m getting relaxed and letting my guard down. They kind of want that to be happening. It’s strange. Very strange.

Corinne

When I think about that—because I’m not a journalist, I don’t have either of these experiences. But if I were trying to make someone relaxed, I’d be telling them my own personal stories. But none of that actually ends up in the profile! 

Virginia

The Cut journalist did a lot of that. The Times reporter did much less of that, although still did some. I always did a lot of that when I would do in-person reporting because I think it does really build a lot of rapport. I mean, it’s a technique that’s taught in journalism school. Share a vulnerable story about yourself. And it is a strange thing because, yeah, that’s not going to end up in the piece. You’re artificially creating rapport with a total stranger. 

Corinne

I feel like I would just be so exhausted. As an introvert, having someone stay with me? I can’t even.

Virginia

Yeah, I was tapped out. They’re in my home, so I’m hosting as well. I’ve written about my stress about hosting. So I definitely am like, cleaning my house really frantically beforehand. And thinking, am I offering them something to drink often enough? All of that social conditioning, gendered stuff is coming into play. It’s really intense. I can’t say I totally recommend it. 

Corinne

Yeah, that’s fair.

Virginia

I think it also can be how you can do really important storytelling. Because you are seeing someone in their space. Just like what you were saying you like about when I write a piece about my family dinner. That enables the journalist to capture that same feeling of we’re in this person’s life with them. And it’s so satisfying. 

I kind of wish in a weird way that I’d had the experience of being profiled years and years ago—no one would have profiled me, I hadn’t done anything interesting. But it gave me a lot of empathy with my previous sources. Just to be like, oh, there are times where you just want this person to go. I just feel journalists should have to be on both sides of it. There’s a lot of value in that.

Corinne

That’s a good point. Was there anything in the article that you felt really good about?

Virginia

My enviable hair.

Corinne

Yes. You did get called out for your incredible hair. 

Virginia

I’m just glad it got appreciated. I mean, the photos are gorgeous. I really loved the photographer. That was fun. 

In terms of the rest: It’s a tricky thing, because we do have this privilege of being mostly in the Burnt Toast space these days, so if I go a few months without doing anything in the mainstream, I forget what the reception is going to be out there. 

I think I both took for granted, and was given reason to believe, that there was going to be a certain amount of empathy and respect for my work. And I didn’t feel was 100 percent communicated in the final piece. There were choices made in the framing of the final piece that felt more tuned towards what will stir up the comments section and what will get a lot of clicks and get this read. 

And I get it. That is also part of their job, right? Just like earlier, when you were like “you’re really good at Substack headlines.” The reason I’m really good at Substack headlines is because I have spent years as a journalist thinking of headlines that will make people want to read a story. So I think you’re always trying to do two things at once with a profile. You’re always trying to both do your subject justice, and empathetically and respectfully tell a story. And you’re trying to write a piece that people are going to want to read and share. Which increasingly, means a piece that is explosive in some way.

And the ways they can make my story explosive—because I’m actually a fairly unexplosive, suburban mom feeding her children snack crackers—are to lean into how radical fat activism is, and to make us all sound a little unhinged, and lean into personal stories about the divorce, and all of that. 

I think the article is still a net positive in terms of a lot of new folks finding our community and more crucially, I hope, folks are finding body liberation work and fat activism who will benefit from it. And, the immediate fallout of a piece like that is exhausting to weather. 

Corinne

Do you want to talk about any of the fallout? You got a lot of angry emails.

Virginia

A lot of angry emails, and a lot of DMs. And I mean, the comment section itself—they had to close it after 800 comments and 95 percent of them were all wretched.

Corinne

When they close the comments, do they tell you they’re doing that? 

Virginia

Oh, no, no, no. And it happened really fast. The piece went up at like 5am on a Sunday morning. And it just got a deluge. And then they closed it. I think they always close it when it reaches a certain amount, probably just so it doesn’t take down the website. This piece just hit that point very quickly, which was a bummer because I think if the comments had moved a little more slowly, maybe Burnt Toast readers or just folks in general who resonate with my work, would have gotten in there as well, and you would have seen more of a mix. But it was very quickly hit by the trolls and very quickly hit by the critics. And then there was no room or time for any other conversation. 

Jeannie Finlay talked about how it flares white hot and then it dies down. And I’ve been through the flare white hot moment a bunch of times in my career with a piece, or with the book launch last year. The difference this time was with this piece, a lot of the flaring white hot was personal attacks. Critiquing me as a journalist feels really different than making judgments about my kids’ health or my kids’ wellbeing, or should CPS be called, and am I abusing my children. 

It’s not that I even take it super personally. I know I’m a good mom. I don’t need random men on the Internet to understand that. But it’s more that there’s this itchy feeling of, they’re judging a kind of a character of me. They’re not actually even seeing my real life. They’re seeing my real life filtered through this journalist, filtered through The New York Times Well section, filtered through their own biases. They’re just responding to a funhouse mirror version of my life.

Corinne

I mean, I truly cannot believe how upset people were that you are giving your kids brownies.

Virginia

I am sad for all the children who don’t get baked goods. I mean, of the the all the terrible things you can do to your children, I don’t think baking them brownies is even anywhere on the list. 

And then of course, we also had the very hilarious second tier coverage of the piece.

Corinne

What was that the headline that was so incredible?

Virginia

Nothing has made me laugh harder in a long time.

Corinne

This is definitely something I didn’t understand until probably last year when your book was coming out. Somewhere like The Cut or The New York Times does an article and then conservative media just picks it up and twists it. 

Virginia

Yes. So The Daily Mail ran a headline: “‘Fat Activist’”—in quotes, always in quotes—“Who Thinks Childhood Obesity Is a Myth Reveals How She Feeds Her Kids Dessert First After Divorcing Fitness Freak Husband Who Lost It When Their Daughter Ate a Stick of Butter.”

Corinne

I mean, put that on your gravestone. 

Virginia

I will never not laugh at it.

Corinne

How does your ex-husband feel about being called “a fitness freak?”

Virginia

I texted him a screenshot of it and he was literally on a run at that moment. He was like, “I see no lies.” I mean, I’m like “this should be our co-parenting Christmas card.” We have laughed about it quite a lot. He did for my birthday bring me a stick of butter with a candle on it and got me a butter knife that says “Keep Calm and Have More Butter.” It’s very cute. So it’s fine. We are fine. Our co-parenting relationship and friendship remains intact.

Corinne

True or false: The divorce was caused by butter.

Virginia

I mean, it’s amazing that I have to explain this to the Internet. No, we did not get divorced over a stick of butter. It is true that one of our children—I don’t even know if they ate the entire stick. But they definitely picked up a stick of butter at the dinner table and chewed on it, the way one would eat cheese. They just really enjoyed this butter. And Dan was appalled by that. I was like, “Well, butter was on the table!” And I will die forever on the mountain of butter is basically cheese. To a two year old, it’s the same thing. 

Corinne

I feel like almost every kid has a story about like, yeah, eating butter, as if it were cheese.

Virginia

And that child, many years later, does still really enjoy butter and would like the butter to be visible. I gave them a bagel with butter for breakfast this weekend and the butter was melted into the bagel. And they were like, “Where’s the butter?” And I was like, I get it. You want the butter to have some presence. But they don’t eat sticks and sticks of it. This didn’t become some ongoing saga of our lives. It’s very funny that the Internet got so upset about that. 

So no, we did not get divorced over butter or even really have much of a fight over it. Because the piece did focus a lot on that question somehow. And there was a moment of the Internet speculating about our marriage. And I noticed that coming from corners of the Internet that weren’t just straightforward trolls. Like, not just people that I would expect to tear me apart. Bt people who I might have thought were kind of on my side, or that were in the same loose conversation.

And I think I just want to say: A core value of body liberation is that you don’t owe anyone your body. And you also don’t owe anyone your life story. I know I have talked and written publicly about being divorced. That does not mean I owe the world any more than I want to say about it.

Corinne

Yeah. I mean, I have never been married. But I have been through a few breakups. And how do you ever distill that down into one thing? 

Virginia

No, it’s never one thing. 

Corinne

Even if it were a stick of butter, it’s never just the stick of butter. I don’t know.

Virginia

And it was not the butter.

Corinne

Obviously.

Virginia

It’s super strange. And this assumption that somebody owes the world more of an explanation or more details than they feel safe giving—it’s just not allowing people to live their lives.

Corinne

Yeah. I feel like it’s one of those things where people just want to know why you got divorced so they can know if they are going to get divorced, you know? They just want to be like, “I want to make sure whatever reason people break up isn’t something I’m doing.” 

Virginia

Well, I will say: If your kid eats a stick of butter, and your partner wants to call CPS on you, then you should divorce them. That is grounds for divorce. That is not what happened in my life. But if your partner responds the way one of my Internet trolls responded, over a child eating butter, that’s a red flag for you.

Corinne

Yeah. I think I would break up with a partner if I found out that they were commenting stuff like that on the Internet. 

Virginia

If you are married to an internet troll…

Corinne

Divorce them.

Virginia

You deserve better. We want better for you. I think that’s right. If you are married to one of the men who sends me emails calling me a spoiled fat cunt, we want better for you.

Corinne

Okay. Anything you’re excited about for Burnt Toast this year? Any upcoming changes? Anything you’re trying to accomplish this year?

Virginia

Well, I think I’m most excited about . That is the project I am most excited about, Corinne having her own Substack that is in conversation with Burnt Toast. Part of our whole family, I don’t know if sister publication is right. We’ll figure out the right terms. 

Corinne

Spider web? Anthill?

Virginia

Garden?

Corinne

Oh, that’s a good one. Garden. We like garden. 

Virginia

The Burnt Toast garden is now growing Big Undies.

Corinne

The tree has been planted.

Virginia

Do you want to talk a little bit about that? Your hopes and dreams? I feel like this is like the new big thing.

Corinne

Yeah, I’m excited. For a long time I have wanted to start a Substack and now seems to be the moment. I’m excited to be making some content about clothes that feels inclusive of different bodies. 

Virginia

I mean, I was just remembering anIndulgence Gospel many moons ago, we were talking about fashion bloggers. And you just said something about like, “It is perpetually annoying that I’m like, I like this fashion and I’m not going to be able to wear the clothes this person is talking about.” I just am really excited for this to be a place where that is not the case. We need more plus size fashion. You’re not only going to write about fat folks and clothes, but that’s always going to be foundational.

Corinne

Yeah, I mean, that is my lens. 

Virginia

And we want to know, what particular types of clothes do you folks want Corinne to write about? What people who wear clothes that you love do you want to hear more about their style? Send Corinne your ideas and thoughts. 

Are you going to answer reader questions?

Corinne

I mean, remains to be seen! Probably? Maybe? Definitely!

Virginia

If you have fashion questions, you may now direct them to Corinne. I am super excited for that.

Corinne

I’m excited, too. 

Virginia

And over on Burnt Toast I think I’m obviously wrestling with this prescriptive versus not question. But I think the pieces that I’m most excited about are elucidating some phenomenon related to diet culture that helps us continue the divestment work and continue to figure out our own stance on things and our own thought process about stuff.

We’re also doing a lot of brainstorming about theme weeks.

Corinne

I’m super excited about the theme stuff because it’s just nice to be able to look at something a little more like deeply, I guess. We have just done Fat Swim Week. We were talking about doing one in the fall—

Virginia

Fat travel!

Corinne

We’re going to do fat travel.

Virginia

So, more themes. If there is stuff you guys want to hear about, we are here for it. And obviously at some point, I’ll have to do a deep dive butter taste testing. For my haters.

Corinne

Hell yeah. Do you have a Butter?

Virginia

I do have a good Butter. I think I’ve talked about becoming a single mom and having only one coffee drinker in the house. So I had a whole journey to figure out my single lady, one cup of coffee solution, which is my little French press.

And similarly, my children and I start every day with a big smoothie and I make it in my trusty Vitamix blender that I got as a refurbished blender back in 2014. This thing has been with me 10 years. I hope I get 10 more years out of it. We actually got it at a medical discount because we were using it to make blended food for my daughter’s feeding tube at that point. Vitamixes are expensive! But I’m telling you, I’ve been using a refurbished model for 10 years without any issues. It will stand the test of time. 

But it’s big. So when the kids go to their dad’s and I don’t need to make a 30-ounce smoothie every morning, I’ve been struggling with the proportions of how to make just the size I want. And then like making too much, and blueberries are expensive. 

So I just got a Ninja Portable Blender. And I’m so obsessed with it. I took it with us this weekend to Boston because I wasn’t sure if our Airbnb would have a blender and it did not. I was able to make us each individual smoothies in it every morning. It’s like a USB charger situation, so it doesn’t even need to be plugged in all the time. 

It’s just extremely powerful and effective. I could make my same smoothie, but just make an individual, one person, one portion. It’s holds 16 ounces and it’s super fast and blends really well. And it’s making me so happy. 

Corinne

That’s cool. Yeah, I definitely would never think that a cordless blender would be cutting it. 

Virginia

I was extremely skeptical. And I think this is a very diet culture a thing because I’m sure everyone’s using it to make their green smoothies. The marketing picture is people on a beach with it. And I’m not doing for any of those reasons. I just love my morning smoothie. And it’s a very satisfying way to make a one person smoothie without accidentally using a gallon of oat milk.

Corinne

I have that problem because I live alone. And if I ever want a smoothie, it’s too small for the Vitamix.

Virginia

It can’t work with it, because you didn’t give it enough liquid. This is what you need. What’s your Butter? 

Corinne

I’m a sporadic coffee drinker, I go in and out of it, but when I was traveling recently and not wanting to deal with buying coffee, I got these little instant pour over coffee things from this brand called Copper Cow. It has this really cool little packet and you just like kind of rip off the top and then pour boiling water over it. Then the other really exciting thing is it’s this little pour over coffee and then it just comes with a little tube of sweetened condensed milk. It’s very delicious and easy and travel friendly.

Virginia

Oh my gosh, these looks so good. Look at us just giving you all a nice travel breakfast setup! That is really fun.

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The Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith (follow me on Instagram) and who runs @SellTradePlus and Big Undies—subscribe for 20% off.

The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe.

Our theme music is by Jeff Bailey and Chris Maxwell.

Tommy Harron is our audio engineer.

Thanks for listening and for supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism!

I think I made a mistake calling these instant! It’s apparently “a pre-filled, single serve pour over.” The coffee does not dissolve! It just comes ready to go.

Jenn is a longtime journalist and magazine editor. She co-hosts the podcast Everything Is Fine with Kim France and writes the Substack extended scenes. And Jenn’s new memoirAmbition Monsteris just out this week! 

Ambition Monster is a deeply personal memoir about workaholism, the addictive nature of ambition, and the humbling process of picking yourself up when the world lets you down. It’s an anti-girlboss tale for our times. And Jenn writes quite a lot in the book about her years in women’s magazines. So I asked her to come on so we could process some of our trauma together. We get into the very specific intersection of diet culture, perfectionism, and workaholism that we survived working in women’s media in the early 2000s and 2010s—which may feel like ancient history but a lot of that stuff is still with us.

Ambition Monster is available in the Burnt Toast Bookshop!

Don’t forget, you can always take 10 percent off that purchase if you also order (or have already ordered!) Fat Talk from Split Rock Books! (Just use the code FATTALK at checkout.)

PS. If you’re enjoying the podcast, make sure you’re following us (it’s free!) in your podcast player! We’re on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, and Pocket Casts! And while you’re there, please leave us a rating or review. (We like 5 stars!)

Jenn

I’m Jenn Romolini. I’m a longtime writer and editor. I was at one point a Chief Content Officer. I’m former tech executive. And I had a professional crash in 2018, reassessed my entire life, got myself off the ladder I’d been on, and wrote a book about it called Ambition Monster. And now I am a podcaster and a writer. And that’s me. 

Virginia

You co-host the Everything Is Fine podcast which is my every Monday morning “walk the dog and listen to Jenn and Kim” hour and I love it so much.

Jenn

I love it too. It’s a very fulfilling project. I think it’s fulfilling because that’s all we want. We just want it to be fulfilling, you know? That’s part of reassessing your feelings about work, what actually lights you up. That’s one of the things that lights me up.

Virginia

That’s something I’ve thought about a lot as I’ve listened to it over the years, both you and Kim both had these huge careers, you had visibility in lots of different ways. And every week it is the just two of you having so much fun together—like the way you crack each other up. You’re being so generous by inviting all of us into your friendship in this really beautiful way. This is what we want to be creating now. Fuck the ladder.

Jenn

Exactly. And fuck looking for external validation, too. We don’t even really imagine that people are listening to the podcast, we’re doing it for us and then we’re happy that other people have come along. That’s a huge shift. And I think that’s a shift that only could have happened with age and experience.

Virginia

So tell us a little bit about Ambition Monster. I inhaled this book. I ignored my children. I was cooking dinner and letting things burn to keep reading—it’s that kind of reading experience. 

Jenn

I’m happy to hear that you devoured it. I didn’t mean for you to burn dinner, but I’m happy to hear that it hit you like that. I want this to go off like a bullet. I want it to be fast because I wanted it to feel like an addiction memoir, and I wanted it to have the stakes of an addiction memoir and be building in that way, because that’s the way work felt for me. It was very toxic. I had a relationship with work that was really problematic, that sort of blotted out everything else in my life. And it was starting to ruin my life. It was ruining my relationships, it was ruining my health. It felt like an addiction like any other. So, I intentionally wrote it in that kind of pace that to feel like you feel when you’re in the throes of an addiction.

Virginia

It feels that way. You also take us into your whole family history. We’re right there in Philly, in your childhood.

Jenn

I didn’t want to have to expose so much of my personal life, but as I started writing about workaholism and ambition, it became very clear to me that I had to tell an origin story. I had to name the source of never feeling like enough and never feeling good enough, and the connection between childhood trauma and perfectionism. And just all of the lies we were sold about having it all. The big, fake, fairy tales about men and that you could build this life and then it would somehow be in balance. It was it was an impossible lie. And it was very much sold to us by our mothers who were part of the Women’s Liberation Movement. They were like, “Okay, this is it. Now we just step into it.” And we were really ill prepared for how many ways it could go wrong.

Virginia

Well and for how much “having it all” means still doing work on the terms of the patriarchy, and on the terms of these systems of oppression. It wasn’t about reinventing work. It was about women playing the same game. Don’t worry, we can do it all.

Jenn

We can do it, too. And then also do all the other stuff, we can do it, too. We can do it just like them and do everything else, too. It was an impossible dream. And it didn’t hit me until I reached the height, the peak, because you keep raising the bar. You’re like when I just get there, if I just make a little more money, if I just get this title, if I just, if just, if I get married. If I have a kid, this certainly is going to be it. And when I had reached the point that it looked to the outside world like I had it all—like literally Cosmo was writing an article about how to get my life. I was like, this feels awful inside.

Virginia

Don’t get this life. 

Jenn

You don’t want this at all! Get away from it!

Virginia

Well, and I think you tell the personal story with so much love. I really felt the love for your parents and for your extended family. I can imagine how complicated it is to write that stuff, but it felt honest and vulnerable and full of love in a way that I really admired.

Jenn

I’m glad I worked really hard on writing about my parents because I love them so much. And I understand what happened. I understand what my mother did. You know, they were teenagers when they had me. They were having to survive. I understand what happened. And in some ways, they’re heroes. I wanted them to come across as heroes. I wanted to talk about generational trauma and I wanted to talk about parenting and how parenting is just so hard for anyone but especially for people who had no models and no tools. 

Virginia

And who are so young. Your mom was so young. Just thrown into it. 

Jenn

Exactly, just thrown into it. I mess up all the time and I didn’t have a kid until I was 37 and had lived a whole life. I really wanted to be compassionate and empathetic while also not hiding the story because I had hidden it for so long trying to protect them. I’d really taken it on and kept it a secret. It felt very, very liberating to air it out. 

Virginia

Since you mentioned the Cosmo story, the other piece that you spent a long time on in the book is your experiences in women’s magazines and New York City media more broadly in the early 2000s. And you and I are both survivors of that world.

Jenn

What a mess. 

Virginia

It’s like that meme: The kids today would not last an hour in the asylum where they raised us. Jenn, they just wouldn’t.

Jenn

No way. I still don’t know if I’m over what happened in that situation. The other thing that the book is about is class, right? It’s a lot about class and Conde Nast was a shock and I spent a lot of time in Conde Nast both as a fact checker and as an editor at Lucky and I was at Allure for a minute and I was at Glamour for a year.

Virginia

Oh, I’m sure. 

Jenn

It was just okay for somebody come up and call you portly. It was just okay. I was called portly. I was a size 8 or 10, it doesn’t matter. But it was just like—I was called portly. 

Virginia

Yeah, that word specifically, too.

Jenn

Portly. And not to mention the stories I wrote and how the subjects had to be conventionally attractive or they would kill the story. 

I remember fact-checking two stories, one about breast cancer survivors, and one about 9/11 widows. I remember the editors saying, “can we get more attractive people?” About the 9/11 widows. And then on the breast cancer survival story: “She’s chubs, we’re going to have to cut this one.”

Virginia

I have a feeling the listeners are imploding right now. So, just to give some historical context to that, women’s magazines in this time period were very big on these Real Women Stories. They would always be about the serious issues: Breast cancer, date rape, all these pressing issues that were that are actually incredibly important to women’s lives. And they would want to tell them through real women, often as “as told to,” first person essays. And so the editor or the writer assigned the story would literally have to cast these pieces with the right mix of real women for the top editors to be okay with. None of the women were ever real because they were so carefully slotted in. 

I can remember age was another big one. If you wrote for a magazine whose demographic topped out at 26, God forbid you show them a 28 year old. 

Jenn

Oh my God.

Virginia

They wouldn’t know what to do with it. 

Jenn

I mean 40 was just like, can you imagine?

Virginia

Anyone over 40, forget it. 

Jenn

It was a nightmare. Unless it was a model and you were making this big deal about it. I just think about how complicit we were in our own subjugation. Because this was a time where the tabloids were circling cellulite. Remember? Like, it was just like such a “gotcha!” moment. 

Virginia

Yes, Jessica Simpson was “fat.”

Jenn

Oh, remember that? Oh my God, yeah. It felt sickening to be in it. I was married to a writer, he worked at men’s magazines. It was totally different game. Didn’t matter what he wore to work.

Virginia

No mandatory pedicures.

Jenn

No. Exactly. The money we spent just to work there, just to keep yourself groomed. I could have retired on that!

There were so few jobs for women in publishing at the time that were outside of women’s magazines. And, the women’s magazines paid the best. Because I actually had a job I loved at Time Out New York, but I made $35,000 a year as an editor of a full section. So it was like, at a certain point, the lure of survival brought you there.

Virginia

It brought you there and then you were trapped there. You couldn’t get your pitches read by editors at a men’s magazine, or even a general interest magazine, because you came from lady mags.

Jenn

Exactly. They wouldn’t even look at your pitches.

Virginia

It was a fancy prison.

Jenn

It was a fancy prison. That’s exactly right. It was a fancy prison run by skinny, wealthy, white women. Like, Mayflower white. Because it was also a very particular kind of white lady who was acceptable in those worlds. That was the class culture shock for me, too. I come from working class, like I’m fully self-made. I had no money. I really had no money. I was in such terrifying debt. I remember talking to somebody on the fashion team—I’d written something about a $150 dress—and she was like, “that’s a budget dress.” She was like, “you can’t get a decent dress for less than $500.”

Virginia

And this was in early 2000s money, people! 

Jenn

Yes, exactly. It’s so shocking. Lucky for me I found a workaround. I was one of the first people on eBay when eBay came out. In the early days of eBay, you could really find steals. 

So I would look through what was coming up, like spring fashion or whatever the next season was, and I would find dupes on eBay. I had an incredible vintage wardrobe. I was very proud of it. But everything was like $30 that I bought. So I just was able to pass. Because I was just hoping to pass in that world. I remember going to a meeting and I had a weird hairstyle that day—I put my hair and braids on top of my head, you know? And somebody said, “It’s hard to make a pretty girl ugly, Jenn, but somehow today you’ve managed.”

Virginia

 Wow.

Jenn

In a meeting! Out loud! In front of other people!

Virginia

At work. Where we’ve all come to do our jobs. 

Jenn

Yes, I mean, The Devil Wears Prada is a true accounting of what this shit was like. 

Virginia

It’s pretty much a memoir. 

I remember, either as an unpaid intern or a very poorly paid editorial assistant at Seventeen, getting roped into being one of those real women on a photo shoot. And none of the things zipping up the back and everyone just kind of standing around being like, “well, I guess we can make it work…” And just picking your body apart. That’s super scarring. 

Another time, we did this photoshoot at Seventeen where we had all these real girls doing workout gear. And they’d brought in one size 12 girl to check that box of “we have one real body!” I still think about the girl because they were legit teenagers. And she was gorgeous. So I hope she went on to feel really great about herself, but it was a not positive experience that day. 

Jenn

Well, this was also part of the thin privilege because the sample sizes were 0, 2 and maybe 4. The people who were those sizes got free clothes all the time because they could fit into those clothes. So they got anything that came in sample that we weren’t sending back. I would never fit into those clothes.

Virginia

No, definitely not.

Jenn

So they would get very expensive clothes for free. And you were just like, oh no, I have to buy everything myself. 

Virginia

Because the expectation was still there that you’re going to dress at that level despite having no access.

Jenn

Exactly, exactly. We haven’t even gotten into the photoshopping and airbrushing. I remember there was a picture of Christina Applegate at one of the magazines I was at. I saw the proof on the art director’s desk and everything had been circled, like lift breast, do this, thin arm, and then on the bottom, the art director had written “make beautiful.”

Virginia

I mean and what’s outrageous about that is—I mean, it’s outrageous for her experience, of course. But if that is the standard? How outrageous to everybody who is bigger than Christina Applegate. Everybody is made to feel less than, because if that isn’t good enough, what is? That’s how these standards become so insidious. 

Jenn

Right. And like, this is the only way clothes are supposed to look. This is the only way that’s acceptable to be, because this is the only thing we’re showing you. I mean, let’s not even get into the fact that everything was so white. There was one month a year, January, when you could put a woman of color on the on the cover of a magazine, which is also fucking crazy if you really think about that. 

Virginia

And they would always talk about how it didn’t sell well. Hmm.  

Jenn

Yeah, exactly. Put them on the cover the month of the year you know sells the least and then talk about how it didn’t sell well. 

Virginia

Maybe give them September? Just a thought.

Jenn

I interviewed cover models, like the celebrities, the actresses, at the cover shoots. That’s where I would do the cover shoot interviews. It was so weird to watch them being put in clothes and how uncomfortable they felt. It wasn’t like playing dress up. It didn’t feel good to them either. We were all part of this machine that was just perpetuating all this toxic information, you know? I’ve worked for famous people and people who say to me, well, you can wear two pair of Spanx. And it’s like, who the fuck wants to wear two pair of Spanx? 

Virginia

Yeah, no thank you. 

Jenn

I don’t ever want to wear Spanx. But, like, the Spanx were a godsend, right? 

Virginia

They were our salvation. 

Jenn

Thank God for shape wear. I mean, I hate bras. I hated it all. It’s weird to think about it. It’s weird to think about why we didn’t just walk away.

Virginia

I mean, I don’t think we could see it at the time! Going back to the breast cancer story example—I think I felt really proud to be working on some of those pieces. I was like, “Well, this is the game I have to play to get the story told.” I finally convinced them to care about this issue, so I can find five women who are all between the ages of 24 and 35. And there will be one black woman, but no more. And everyone will be thin and beautiful. Somehow I’ll make that happen so I can tell the story. Which is of course not really telling the story because you’ve manipulated it so much. But it was that or not having the piece in the magazine at all.

Jenn

Right? And also those stories wound up shrinking and shrinking. I don’t know if you remember, they wound up being like one column. You’d start out with like a 3,000 word piece and it would just get whittled and whittled. It was like a caption by the end.

Virginia

One of the editors I worked for at Seventeen went into the art department during her first week on the job and said, “I hate words and girls don’t read. So make the pictures as big as you want.” And basically everyone in the features department was like, “So we start looking for jobs?”

Jenn

I think I know who that editor is and yes, that was the pervading philosophy. Girls don’t read. I remember being like, why can’t there be a women’s GQ? Why can’t there be a women’s Esquire? Why are we stuck in this?

Virginia

I felt so frustrated because I knew I didn’t even want to write for Esquire and GQ, because they were not going to do the stories that I wanted to write. I was never going to get an editor at Esquire interested in feminism. Like, it’s a non-starter. I was just always like, I don’t know where else to go. Because the places that do the “good journalism” don’t want these stories. And then the places that will do these stories will only do them if I squish them into this box. Why is this entire genre of media so pandering? Why is it assuming women are so stupid?

Jenn

It was funny because I did that podcast last year Stiffed which was about Viva Magazine, which was a feminist porn magazine from the 70s. The reason I wanted to do it was because I really wanted to talk to all these old time female writers and editors. I wanted to know what their experience had been like. An they were saying the same thing. They wanted all the same things. That’s why they like held their nose and went and worked thre. They were all smart, Harvard-educated people. And they went to go work for Bob Guccione because they were like, “Well, maybe we’ll get to make like not a totally vapid publication.” And they did. They did for years, next to all these naked dicks that they didn’t care about at all. They didn’t have any interest in the porn. He was pushing the porn, but they were doing all these really interesting feminist stories about sex and marriage and work and all of these things that they couldn’t get placed in other publications. There were people like us who wanted something better and bigger for women. And nobody would let us do it because they just wanted us to write about eyeshadow and pedicures. 

Virginia

I want to be clear: There were so many brilliant editors I learned from at women’s magazines. I remember the head of fact checking at Seventeen had been there for like 30 years. She was just a brilliant, quirky, long-time journalist. There were so many people you could learn from. It was the corporation forcing us into those parameters. The individual features editors, or the researchers, we were all like “How do we do this?”

Jenn

No, not all of the editors. There was some true monsters.

Virginia

Yeah, I mean, the editor-in-chief is a different conversation.

Jenn

Conde Nast used to make their editors-in-chief go through a full head to toe makeover—including they had to go to a diet doctor to slim them down, before they got on the job. 

Virginia

Jesus Christ. 

Jenn

Just think about that, you’re like a walking marquee for this whole idea of femininity.

Virginia

So curious if they did that to the male editor-in-chiefs, too. Did David Remnick have to do that?

Jenn

Come on. You know the answer to that.

Virginia

How do you feel the rigid body expectations—and this idea that your whole body has to be your work—how do you feel like that fit into your workaholism? Because I do think they’re very related.

Jenn

I mean, I think Conde ruined me. I was kind of messy when I went into Conde, you know. I didn’t know from a blowout. But that perfectionism pervaded all parts of my life.

I started setting unrealistic expectations for myself in all ways after that experience, but particularly in the way that I looked. It was funny because then when I started working in tech, I showed up immaculate everywhere. I wouldn’t have said at the time, but I really worked to keep my weight at a certain level. And when I would show up for these tech interviews, I was way too done. I had become so polished and way too done. I was cosplaying as this sleek professional and it wasn’t who I was, in any way. But the Conde makeover was particularly brutal. I don’t think you can really escape it working there. Especially not in the position I had. I was the deputy editor. I don’t feel like I could have escaped it.

Virginia

I don’t think you would have gotten the job, or kept it. without playing that game. There was a degree to which it felt like armor, if we dressed this way.

Jenn

It was like a secret handshake or something, right? People being able to identify the the labels you were wearing and the bag you were carrying and that your manicure was immaculate. That really messes with you. 

Virginia

I was insulated in a way because I went freelance pretty early. I was a freelance writer from 2005 on. But anytime I’d have an editor lunch at Conde or at the Hearst cafeteria, I would take the entire day off work to prep. To go into that lunch, to just to be in the lobby of those buildings, it felt like you have to arrive in a certain way. I didn’t understand how my friends who were editors managed to eat in those cafeterias every day.

Jenn

Oh, the cafeteria! I mean, talk about disordered eating. I have like a whole run in the book about how skinny women ate in the Conde Nast cafeteria, which was wild to me. 

I think that sort of Conde Nast ethos fit into what I got into later, which was like a whole Girlboss thing, which was lwhen all of those books about making it all had stilettos on the covers. It was like, you have to be pretty to make it. 

I tried to disrupt that narrative with my first book, but nobody wanted to hear about it. Nobody wanted to be messy. Everybody wanted to pretend like it was all going great. If you look at any of those books from that time, the women who are on the covers all look exactly the same. And if you dig a little further, they all come from wealth, or all had wealthy husbands. Their stories of making it were all about like, “Well, actually, I just started out great and then I had a leg up. And then I built this quote business.”

Virginia

“And I can afford a nanny and a housekeeper.” And even then, it’s still not quite working, but they can give the veneer of it. 

Jenn

Yes, exactly. All that grooming, and all that presentation, of what a successful woman looks like.

Virginia

It’s something I have also really had to untangle. It’s hard because we survived our women’s magazine years and now we’re in the era of social media where there’s still an expectation that your face is going to be out there all the time and that you’re going to be able to be on camera very easily. It’s not the editor-in-chief who has to be ready to go on the Today Show at a moment’s notice, but we’re still performing our bodies, and performing how we look, in the service of work.

Jenn

Yes. I thought about that a lot, because I really wanted to hide for a long time after feeling so exposed for so long and performing for so long and performing an identity that wasn’t really me. Becoming inauthentic in a lot of ways and caring about things I didn’t really care about, et cetera, et cetera. So I went into podcasts and then suddenly podcasts were like video. I was like, wait, wait, wait. Even promoting this book, a lot of things have come up for me about, like, do I look okay? Are my outfits okay? Because it can’t just be about the work for women, ever. I understand the game because I was right in the fucking disgusting dirty middle of it. I was in the gross molten core of it. And I think about it a lot. I wrestle with it, you know? Ultimately, you just have to learn to disentangle the two. I think it’s one of the hardest things women will ever do.

Virginia

It’s so complicated because if you step back from some of it, there is a cost, right? There’s a cost. For every beauty standard you divest from or every bit of beauty work that used to feel essential that you’re like, “I’m gonna say fuck it to that,” that has real consequences for women. And the more marginalized you are, the more consequences you’ll have. 

I do think there’s some power in just recognizing this is a game I play. I just wrote an essay about body hair because I still fucking get bikini waxes even though, as a feminist, I think it’s bullshit. But I don’t have the energy to opt out. And, I mean, we didn’t wear bikinis to women’s magazines and yet, there was still an expectation that you did that. 

Jenn

Oh my God, like I said, the amount of grooming! The waxing and the plucking and the nails and the hair. And the hair, the hair cost so much money!

Virginia

The blow out bars.

Jenn

The highlights. And they they knew they had us. No men were paying $500 to get their hair highlighted. Come on.

Virginia

I know and those New York City salons that could charge those prices and not because they were paying their workers particularly well. But there would be the one dude celebrity hairstyles that everyone wanted to see. I remember one time getting one of those $500 haircuts and being like, What even was that?

Jenn

Because they’re not nice to you! And it’s what you’re supposed to aspire to. 

All of that was really what I was wrestling with with this book because the only way to liberation is to stop caring about what other people think. It’s the only way. To be motivated internally by what do I want? How do I feel? And then that’s even confusing. 

I let my armpits grow for a long time—speaking of hair, because I was like,”I don’t want to teach my kid that they have to shave their armpits.” Eventually I was like, “this is kind of uncomfortable.” Eventually, I came to like, oh, my armpits stink more. But I went through the whole journey with my armpits so I could really figure out how I felt about them. How much of this is internalized misogyny and how much is my own free will is the thing I think about a lot.

Virginia

It’s really hard to know because it’s always in there. The misogyny, the anti-fatness, we can’t escape it. I feel like all you can do is try to name where it’s showing up and then decide is there something that I get out of this as well? Or is this beauty work that only costs me. And it’s going to be different for everyone. 

Jenn

And as a parent, no matter how well you do it in your house, the outside world is still awful and cruel. I mean, we’ve talked about this a lot—my kid lives in a bigger body. My kid is bigger and they experience so much bullying. It’s so painful because I worked so hard to not give my kid what I had. And they’re still suffering.

Virginia

Yeah, the world is still shit. 

Jenn

There’s just no good answers for any of this except that we just keep trying to evolve and understand ourselves better and not participate in anything like we participated in in the 2000s. 

Virginia

I think we’re doing better now. We can confidently say we can feel much better about the work we do today. 

Jenn

And you know what? I don’t think that Jessica Simpson would be called fat today.

Virginia

No, I don’t think so.

Jenn

I mean, now she’s on Ozempic. So who knows. Fucking Ozempic. 

Virginia

She won’t be called fat because she’s doing everything to not be called fat. 

Jenn

Exactly. But in the body she was in then? I don’t think so. I do think that is some progress. Though Ozempic really terrifies me.

Virginia

I mean, the media in particular has done such a bad job on this. Because every interview request I get about Ozempic, which is multiple times a week, I’m asked to talk about it. I just say no now, because I’m like, there’s no point. You’re all doing the same story, which is, “Now we have Ozempic so I guess we don’t need body positivity anymore.” And no, you still have to treat fat people like human beings, which by the way, is more than body positivity.

Jenn

I’m starting to really see it with women in midlife, because our podcast’s audience is all women in midlife. Your body changes in midlife and sometimes you hold weight and you never held weight before. So you have to adjust to who you are and getting comfortable with your body, right? For maybe the first time ever, right? You had thin privilege your whole life and now you don’t. We used to have models for women being in bigger bodies as they got older but now with Ozempic—like I was looking at Kris Jenner the other day, and I was like, oh my God, you’re whittled down to nothing. It’s sad.

Virginia

And it’s so difficult to know how we get more of that representation if every time we get like a little bit of it, it has to be the entire personality of the person. That would be the same for an older celebrity. To be like, I’m not going to do Ozempic. I’m not going to do various types of work that most of them get done. Because then that would be all they’d ever talk about in an interview. I understand why they don’t want that to be the conversation. They want the conversation to be their work. So again, it’s the armor. It’s playing the game so that you can do the work. 

Jenn

It is playing the game. I’ve had friends in Hollywood say, “We just need one person to stop doing this and then we can all stop it.” And like, no, that’s not it. It’s not going to just be one person that can just stop. It’s too systemic.

Virginia

You mentioned your armpit journey, which I love. Is there anything that else that as you have done all this work of divesting from workaholism, any other ways that how you relate to your body has changed? 

Jenn

I don’t have a scale in my house anymore. I used to be a real weigh-er, you know? And I don’t have the scale in the house. I really try to only care about being strong. That’s the only health thing that I really care about is like, can I still touch my toes? Can I lift this six gallon bottle of water? I’ve really tried to change those relationships and I try not to look in the mirror. I’ve tried to buy the size that I am, to not ever try to put myself into a smaller size if I’m not that size. Like I’ve just tried to not make it be a thing, if that makes sense. And it’s hard. 

Virginia

It definitely does help to reframe our bodies that way. My big one is like, I still want to be able to get up off the floor. 

Jenn

Oh, I do that every day! 

Virginia

It’s been getting harder since I turned 40! And I’m 43, so I feel like it shouldn’t be this hard yet. And it’s already pretty hard. So I need to keep doing that. Every day I’m like, get down on the floor, get up off the floor.

Jenn

I really practice. That is one of my practices every morning where I get up and down off the floor. I don’t want to hate my body anymore. It’s been too long, it’s been too long of hating it and comparing it and feeling uncomfortable with it. Now there’s a whole new set of issues. There’s crepey skin and saggy skin and everything is different. 

Yesterday I was doing yoga and I just saw there were these weird new veins on the front of my knees. I was like, wow, that’s weird. That’s new. Just being like, alright, well, it still works. Just being really grateful for the fact that it works. That’s where I’m really trying to be. 

Virginia

The aesthetic part is not the part that keeps you being able to get up off the floor now. That’s not the most critical piece of it. 

Jenn

No, because if you start fixating on all of those things—and believe me there’s a plastic surgery for everything. If you start fixating on your ugly old hands or your saggy arms or whatever, it’s never going to end. Because we are declining. This is what’s happening. Our bodies are rotting. It’s what’s happening is a slow rot. And like, you just have to be like, alright, you’re still working. I’m still able to move through the world. That’s what I’m really focused on now more than anything else, more than the clothes I can wear, more than fucking anything. I don’t care besides just being able to be be alive and be able to be present and not hurt too much. You know?

Virginia

I think that makes a lot of sense. 

Jenn

There are two things that I’m obsessed with. I just realized today going through my drawer, the first one is, I think I have seven pair of Big Bud Press pants.

Virginia

I’ve heard that’s a very addictive brand because you can get all the different colors. 

Jenn

They make the best pants and I’ll tell you why they make the best pants. Because they’re like a tailored pant. They look totally normal, like a normal pant. They don’t look like sweatpants. But they have elastic in the back. They just flex for you, you know? And they’re super size inclusive. They have so many cool designs and I’ve been wearing them for like five years and again I have seven pairs.

Virginia

Tell us which you like the best.

Jenn

I like the work pants. I really like the work pants a lot. They’re also really well-made and it’s a small company out of California and the cotton’s really good. It’s a high quality pant. I’m very hard on clothes and they’ve lasted me for years and years. They’re just a really good brand. I buy them for my kid, too. It’s a good brand, solid brand. 

Virginia

For listeners, they go up to 6x. I will say I tried their jumpsuit once and the sizing was a little—it didn’t end up working for me. But I’ve heard their size charts have gotten much better. 

Jenn

Their size charts have gotten much better.

Virginia

So they’ve been on my list to try again. And the measurements for 6x is a 61 to 67 inch waist. So that’s pretty generous.

Jenn

I think they’re good pants.

Then the other thing I’ve been doing—and you will look like a dork—but I got a weighted vest.

Virginia

I’ve heard you talk about this. I’m so glad you’re bringing this up because I have many questions about the weighted vest. Okay, first, tell us what it is. 

Jenn

A weighted vest is exactly what you think. It’s a vest with weights in it. It has about 16 pounds of weight in it. Because I’m obsessed with being strong and because also I hate running and I hate cardio. It’s the worst and I don’t want to force myself to do it. I will say I sweat more and I feel like I’m out of breath more with the weighted vest on. 

But it’s also distributed. I tried the backpack with the pounds in it. And I was like this is just killing my menopausal shoulder. I can’t live with this.

Virginia

That feels like a great way for me to have a neck injury. 

Jenn

Exactly. I was like no, no, no. But the weighted vest, I feel like it makes a low impact workout higher impact. 

Virginia

Ok, I’m intrigued. 

Jenn

I think it is supposed to help the strength of your bones. I just like it because it’s a lazier workout. I’m never going to join CrossFit. But I will say there’s no way to look cool on it.

Virginia

We’ll put a link in to the one you have. And I’m curious to hear if other folks have tried them. When I walk in my neighborhood, my neighborhood is very hilly and I’m already very out of breath. So this doesn’t feel like my journey? My walks are already hard enough. But I can definitely understand the appeal. I mean, all they tell us is strength training, bone density, blah, blah, blah. Any way to get more of that seems useful.

My Butter is this book I just listened to all last weekend while I was gardening which was so blissful. And it’s called The Mother Act by Heidi Reimer. It just came out and it made me think of your book a lot. I think you would really love it. It’s told from both the perspective of the mother and the daughter and the mother is this super successful memoirist, a giant feminist personality who’s gone on to do talk shows and become a giant celebrity. But she’s written about her motherhood in a lot of detail and about how much she hated motherhood in a lot of detail. So she has a very complicated relationship with her daughter, who is the subject of all of this content that she’s made about hating motherhood. Both characters are a really wonderful exploration of women’s ambition and the character was raised in a fundamentalist Christian family that she had to kind of break out of. But then she ends up in this other fancy prison, like we were talking about. I really could not stop listening to it. And the audio book is excellent for audio book fans.

Jenn

Oh, I want to get that! That sounds exactly right up my alley. I very intentionally did not write about my child in this book. Kimberly Harrington has written about this pretty well, like, it’s not my story. But also I didn’t want to regret that. I didn’t want to betray my kid. I’ve really considered that a lot. That’s a tough position, you know.

Virginia

As someone who’s done it some and is now navigating some conversations with my kid about it, I’m glad I didn’t do more. It’s hard. It’s where your story overlaps with their story and it’s hard to figure out. 

Jenn

My kid one time found a tweet of mine that said, “motherhood is a scam,” and I was like, “oh, it was just a joke. Sorry. I don’t mean it.” I mean, but I kind of do. 

Virginia

That’s a whole conversation we have to have. Let’s have it when you’re 30. 

Alright, Jenn. This was fantastic. Thank you so much. We could relive our magazine trauma for days, I think. But this was healing. 

Jenn

Thank you. You’re the best. Thank you for having me on. I love everything you do. I love your work so much and I respect you so much. I’m so proud of everything you do.

Virginia

Thank you! Okay, everyone needs to go read Ambition Monster. Tell us how else we can follow you and support your work. 

Jenn

You can find me on Substack at jenn romolini and I’m on Instagram and everywhere at Jenn Romolini.

---

The Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith (follow me on Instagram) and Corinne Fay , who runs @SellTradePlus, and Big Undies. 

The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe.

Our theme music is by Jeff Bailey and Chris Maxwell.

Tommy Harron is our audio engineer.

Thanks for listening and for supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism!

Emma is the author of the hybrid nonfiction book The Third Rainbow Girl, which was named a New York Times notable book and Editor’s Choice of 2020. She also writes

Frump Feelings by Emma Copley Eisenberg

. And Emma’s new novel, Housemates, just came out on Tuesday!

Today we are going to talk about Emma’s new book, but we’re also going to talk a lot about my favorite new trend invented by Emma (so says me): Frump Fashion.

Both of Emma’s, including Housemates, are available in the Burnt Toast Bookshop!

Don’t forget, you can always take 10 percent off that purchase if you also order (or have already ordered!) Fat Talk from Split Rock Books! (Just use the code FATTALK at checkout.)

PS. If you’re enjoying the podcast, make sure you’re following us (it’s free!) in your podcast player! We’re on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, and Pocket Casts! And while you’re there, please leave us a rating or review. (We like 5 stars!)

This transcript may contain affiliate links. Shopping our links is another great way to support Burnt Toast!

Virginia

Full disclosure: We should let the folks at home know that we do share a literary agent. 

Emma

True. 

Virginia

Nothing about this interview was compromised by that fact, I don’t think. We just both love and admire our agent and have that in common.

Emma

It’s true. Good conflict of interest disclosure, but I think I found you totally independently of her! I think just from Burnt Toast. So it was a fun coincidence. 

Virginia

Such a small world. Okay, so tell folks a little bit about yourself!

Emma

I am a writer and a fat person living in Philadelphia. I write across the genre spectrum. I write long, rambling books. My first book is called The Third Rainbow Girl. I’m a novelist at heart and a fiction writer, and my book is coming out called Housemates. I’ve also written journalism and articles about the intersection of crime and queerness, about the intersection of fatness and queerness, and about fat liberation in general.

Virginia

Let’s talk a little bit about Housemates! I just finished it at 5am because a child woke me up in the middle of the night. And I was like, well, I’m up, at least I get to read Emma’s amazing novel. It has one of the best fat protagonists I’ve read in a long time. Tell us a little bit about Leah and about Bernie, who is the other protagonist.

Emma

Housemates is about Bernie and Leah who are two queer housemates in a big chaotic, messy group house in West Philly, which is close to my heart. That’s where I live. I was interested in writing a story about two people who are not just lovers, not just friends, not just making art together, but are doing all three of those things at the same time. 

Leah is the fat one—which is only one part of her personality, which was important to me. I’m really interested in the ways that fatness shows up in fiction, the lack of fat characters in fiction as we know. I did an analysis of the New York Times notable books over the past five years adn found that less than one percent of the Times notable books—100 each year over the past 5 years—have had a fat person in them.

Virginia

Out of 500 books?

Emma

Less than one percent. And that’s not just the Times, right? That’s a systemic issue in our culture and in our books landscape. So that was something that was definitely on my mind. 

As I said, I’m also a fat person. It’s part of my life and my experience, but I wanted to write a character who was in an interesting place with her fatness. I think there’s all this pressure if you’re fat to be unequivocally joyful and positive in your embodiment. Leah is, I would say, definitely still struggling and grappling with how her body exists in the world and how it’s treated. Particularly in queer spaces. Queer spaces can be super white and super fatphobic, as we know, as well. 

Leah’s moving through this queer strange bubble of West Philly, having all these experiences and thinking a lot about how she wants to leave and explore and see what else is out there and make art that is doing something that she’s not seeing in her life, in her neighborhood. 

She’s also tall and masc and nonbinary. She uses she and they—I’m going to use she for her in this interview because the pronouns kind of change over the course of the book. But both are fine, according to her. She’s really thinking a lot about joy and pleasure with fatness. She loves sex. She’s good at sex, which I think is rarely offered to fat people, especially fat people in fiction. She’s in love with Bernie and this exciting new relationship.

At the same time, she’s thinking about how to navigate her body in spaces that are not always really safe. They’re road tripping across Pennsylvania and there are lots of things that happen that put her masc and nonbinary body in situations that are dangerous or unknown. 

I wanted to write a fat person who is smart, inquiring, and searching. Not fully arrived at liberation, but not deeply entrenched in shame either. Sort of in the middle, and really coming of age and coming to figure out her own body, as many of us are. 

Then Bernie is a kind of thin, squirrel-y, little lady who is also struggling with her embodiment. Even though she’s a thin person, we know fatphobia affects all the people. She’s someone who is really thinking about how to not be so alienated from her body. She is trying to think about how to be more at home inside herself. Rather than looking at herself from the outside, rather than feeling sort of dissociated from her own experience. She is someone who really struggles to feel pleasure, to enjoy sex, to enjoy connection. 

I wanted to also show that Leah is actually someone who can sort of mentor and encourage Bernie along on her body journey. It’s almost like the fat person is teaching the thin person how to be in a body which is something I wanted to play with and see. 

Because as fat people we think about embodiment all the time. And our friends and loved ones are sort of like what, who, where? I have a body? We can be at the forefront. Not that we must teach everyone how to have a body, but that’s a joyful gift we can give if we want to.

Virginia

Well and you give her that power and authority, when fat people are so often not allowed to be authorities on our own bodies.

I don’t want to include any spoilers in this episode because everyone’s going to go read the book, but there’s a really, really powerful scene at the end where Leah does something very physical. It’s a very cool, embodied powerful moment and subverts a lot of expectations about how fat people move and exist in our bodies. 

Emma

I wanted to show Leah getting to go on a journey and a trajectory with her body that wasn’t really easy and tied up in a bow, like she starts off the book hating her body and feeling shame about fatness and by the end she’s fixed or cured or done. 

I do think that there are ways that we’re constantly shifting and unlearning shame over the course of our lives. My therapist always says people heal in relation, we don’t heal in isolation. And I think there’s something powerful in the connection between these two people who are thinking a lot about art and morality and travel and America under Trump. They’re both teaching each other and growing. 

Virginia

I also applaud you, though, because while she is really struggling with a lot of this, she’s not actively dieting. I appreciated that you left dieting out of the book altogether because I think the struggle of embodiment is so much more than that. It too often gets reduced down to just that one piece.

Emma

For sure. Leah doesn’t diet. She’s in this place of essentially intuitive eating, where she’s like, I’m going to sort of perk up my ears and listen to what I want and what sounds delicious and what I want to consume. Especially, like, they’re on a cross country road trip. So they’re eating like delicious things like Waffle House and Dairy Queen and whatever you may find on the road. 

I think that’s part of the pleasure of a road trip is the eating and the consuming and seeing what you encounter. At the same time, she’s ambivalent or has questions about what does it mean to eat what I’m what I’m wanting or what I’m listening to. All those intuitive eating nuances that you discuss a lot in your work. 

That’s very much also true to my community and my experiences here in Philly. I did this really great fat embodied healing workshop where a bunch of us were asking: What does it mean to be eating what we want to eat, to be listening to our bodies, and also to be thinking about ways of not wanting to react against. Because I think it’s true that we don’t necessarily want to just be reacting against diet culture all the time. And it’s really hard to stop that reaction. So Leah’s thinking a lot about how can I actually be free and liberated. It’s not just reacting against, it’s finding some easiness in the middle. She’s looking for that ease, I think. And I think she finds a little more of it by the end of the book.

Virginia

The book also features this somewhat omniscient narrator, an older woman who’s watching Leah and Bernie’s lives play out. She’s a really interesting character in her own right, but there’s one paragraph of hers in particular that I underlined and bookmarked and was like, “Well, this just summed up my life to me.” 

Emma

She’s an older queer woman, a lesbian of an older generation than Bernie and Leah, is I guess what I’ll say. She is speaking here. The he in this paragraph is this character Daniel Dunn, who was Bernie’s mentor and college professor, and he’s complicated, to say the least.

Okay, here is the paragraph: 

He was one of those men who asked no questions, who just talked. He talked at me rather than to me, as if I could have been anyone which it seemed I was. This was not necessarily an uncommon experience for me when it came to men of Dunn’s demographics. There’s a thing that happens when you are either a lesbian or you become more comfortable with yourself in your late 30s and early 40s, or both, and men start to pick up on the fact that you are no longer sexually available to them. So they ignore you, treat you as a nondescript piece of furniture, you are no longer dressing for their eye, and they know it. And so they do not rest their eye upon you.

Virginia

Yeah, I mean, all of this. 

Emma

Say more. 

Virginia

This is a thing that I’ve been noticing over the last several years—I mean, I’m 43. So I’m the demographic she’s talking about there. And I haven’t quite known how to verbalize because I both notice it and resent it, and also love it at the same time. Because there’s a lot of freedom to this invisibility? I don’t know, I’m curious how you feel about it.

Emma

Yeah, that’s really interesting. It makes me think, too, I recently listened to the Modesty episode of

Articles Of Interest

.

Virginia

Ooh, I haven’t heard that yet. 

Emma

It’s a little bit different, but modesty connects maybe to what we’re going to get into a little bit later, in the sense that if you’re slightly covered up, you have a little more control over who’s looking at you and how they’re looking at you, and especially how you get sexualized or not by men. I’m also really interested in the way that men’s misogyny and sexualization gets troubled or interrupted by queerness, by queer women.

So this is Bernie’s problematic professor and he’s interacting with queer women of various ages and getting tripped up almost by the fact that they’re not sexually available to him, which is interesting.

Like you said, it creates a certain amount of freedom. But I think there’s also a way that there’s just a sense of invisibility that—I’m in my later 30s, but I’m fat, so I feel like that’s sort of also part of it. Like, I’ve been starting to experience that. And like you said, I am ambivalent about it. It means you have less aliveness or electricity in a room sometimes, but you also have more freedom to just be a subject rather than an object. It’s complicated. 

Virginia

Yes. I’m aware that there are rooms I’m in where I am not going to be listened to. Where I’m not going to be considered worth listening to because of being fat, because of being in my 40s, because of being a person on the internet who men like to hate. All these different identities. 

And sometimes it’s just like, what a fucking relief. Let me just not engage with that. Of course, it gets complicated if you’re remotely interested in men ever. Because it’s like, what do we do with that? 

Emma

Yeah, for this narrator, she’s not like, “I need men to fall in love with me.” But she is like, “I need men to respect me.” Because in this situation, she’s an artist and he’s an artist, and they both have work in a show together, but he doesn’t see her. Doesn’t know who she is, doesn’t care. 

I definitely encounter some of this. I’m not nearly as public a person as you are, but being a writer, being an audio artist, we are in the public eye to some extent and there is all kinds of weird stuff that come from that invisibility, where people are like, oh, yeah, we’re not as interested in you in this meeting. We don’t care as much about what you have to say because you’re not beautiful anymore or maybe you’re just not beautiful in general. That’s really interesting to me. I think this older artist is really thinking through what it means to have beauty or not and what that means for men in particular and just the way she moves through the world.

Virginia

There’s just so much there. Because it’s also like, who’s defining beautiful?

Emma

Yes and ageism and all the things.

Virginia

My solution to this a lot of the time has been to choose communities that don’t center straight men. I think you probably feel similarly? And that is extremely liberating until you realize, oh I have to go into this other context and they’re still out there. 

Emma

Yes. I want to be writing for fat people, for sure. Like, I really hope that fat people and people interested in body liberation read this novel. But I also want to be writing for whoever’s interested in hopefully compelling literary fiction. 

And whenever this book goes out into the world and I’m talking about it, like I’m lucky enough to do here with you, there are all these notions that I kind of hate facing, but are absolutely going to be put upon all of us. You know, of like you’re just not as shiny or not as interesting or not as smart. 

I can’t tell you how many times people have made assumptions that I’m not the author of my first book because I’m fat. Like, walking into a bookstore where people assumed I was like, a friend or something, you know? And I’m like, no, I wrote this book.

Virginia

Wait, wait. We have to stop on that for a second. Tell people about your first book and then why could a fat person not have written that? I don’t understand. 

Emma

My first book was a reported memoir. And there were at least two times, I think, where either I walked into a bookstore or I showed up to a press thing and people were like, “Oh, like, hi?” And I was like, no, I’m, Emma. I’m the author. And they were like, oh! And then one bookseller actually said, “I saw a huge person out of the corner of my eye and I thought that can’t be the author.” Someone said that out loud.

Virginia

Those words were said out loud. People do not hear themselves. 

Emma

No, they do not. I think there’s a deeply entrenched belief that we need to keep examining, which is that fat people can’t have excellence or can’t be innovators, can’t be visionaries, can’t have exciting, strange, culturally relevant ideas. 

Like, I know people wouldn’t mostly say that out loud. But I think there is a truth to that. We know that fat people are discriminated against for job opportunities.

So yeah, it was wild. And I definitely had people reach out to me in the process of publishing my book being like, what happened? Like, you gained so much weight. What happened to you? The sense that since my book was about a murder, they were like, oh, the trauma of the book must have caused you to become fat. And I was like, no, no, actually.

Virginia

Bodies change, guys. 

Emma

Like, calm down. It’s fine, you know? Yeah, people do not care. It’s wild. 

Virginia

I mean, I’m just exhausted and enraged.

Okay, but so this invisibility thing we’re talking about segues really nicely into the other big conversation I wanted to have with you today, which is about frump fashion. So you write a Substack called

Frump Feelings by Emma Copley Eisenberg

, which is an A+ Substack name. Like, really A+. As Someone who just thought of her own subject name very off the cuff years ago and sometimes wishes she’d put more thought into it. I’m like, damn, that’s a good one.

So you wrote this piece back in April called Frump Goes Mainstream which I really loved for a lot of reasons. First, tell us, what is Frump? 

Emma

I’m still incredulous that my weird word reclamation is something that’s of interest to others, so thank you for caring about frump.

Virginia

I care deeply.

Emma

Thank you so much. I have long been dressing myself in a way that maybe is a little bit strange to other people. As a kid I wore a lot of pinafores and ruffled outfits and I was always trying to get my parents to buy me the matching Samantha outfit from American Girl dolls, as we’ve discussed.

Virginia

You know I lived that trauma with you.

Emma

Exactly. There is a sort of American Girl inspired character in Housemates which is an easter egg for you. 

Virginia

Oh, I loved it. 

Emma

Thank you so much. I remember getting to high school and college and being like, “Okay, I’m supposed to be sexy now, I think?” Like, other people in my high school were sexy? And then when I got to college, it was like the Going Out Top. I’ve heard you talk about the like tyranny of the Going Out Top a little bit. And also our friend,

Dacy Gillespie

has talked about the Going Out Top . And I was like, what is that? It was the sense that I was supposed to be putting my body on display in an appealing way. 

I also remember being a kid in the 90s, growing up in lower Manhattan, when the street harassment was constant and endemic and just intense. So from a very young age, I remember being like, “Actually, I think I want to cover up and put more clothes on.” Because, one, I liked them and they’re made of fun fabrics. And two, I don’t want to get on the subway and be harassed on my way to school.

I wouldn’t say I’ve ever had a particularly cool or vibrant style, but I’ve always had a sense of like, I’m interested in maxi dresses. I’m interested in ruffles. I’m interested in patterns. I’m interested in many layers. I’m interested in bright colors, big shapes, clothes that often read as either little girl or old woman. That tends to be my vibe. 

Recently, I think it seems to have kind of exploded on TikTok with this sense of dressing for the female gaze instead of the male gaze. That seems to be something that’s really come into the modern vernacular on TikTok, on Reels, other places. Gen Z.

Virginia

Bless the youth 

Emma

The youth are okay. 

Virginia

I love that they’re like, no thank you, male gaze. 

Emma

The Going Out Top has gone and it’s been replaced by big pants and interesting shirts. And I love that for them. 

I think that it’s really interesting just to see this mass rejection of this idea of sexiness. In my manifesto about frump that I published a few years ago, I call the mainstream style that we expect from women and femme people “sexy adult woman.” And I want to be like a weird child or a grandma in the woods. Those two poles of experience are sort of where frump resides. 

People use the word frump or frumpy to denigrate women and to say you’re failing. Failing at the project of being sexy is to be frumpy, right? And so at a certain point, I was like, no, I want to reclaim frump and be like, this is actually not a failure to be sexy. It’s its own style that has its own goals and its own silhouettes. 

I also think that it has a certain vibe of a little bit of messiness. You’re generally a little less showered when you’re frumpy. Your hair might be greasy or you might have big boobs that are a little bit floppy. In My Crazy Ex Girlfriend she talks about “heavy boobs.” Heavy boobs are very frump. All of this is to say that there are certain physical realities that make being a sexy adult woman complicated or unappealing. And I was like, I don’t want to do that anymore. 

Virginia

I was listening to a parenting podcast, because that’s my life, and they were talking about their teenage girls going to prom and the girls are wearing sneakers to prom now. And I’m just like, yes. I mean, they’re still wearing the little dresses and all that. It’s still very, like, for the male gaze. 

Emma

An aestheticized thing, yeah.

Virginia

Prom is built for the male gaze, right? But still. And this actually happened a few weeks ago—I went to a dance party that was all middle aged moms because it was a fundraiser for our school. And we all showed up in comfortable footwear, even if we dressed up. And I was like, why did I ever go dancing in heels? Like, I was not a club girl. I was really bad at clubbing, but I went to NYU so there was an expectation that you would try.

Emma

Ooh, I didn’t know that about you.

Virginia

It was a hard time for me, aesthetically. And I feel like I’m still paying the price of what I did to my ankles in those years. 

Emma

Now I’m like, ooh, a chunky loafer? Really risky for my ankle today. Bold move. 

Virginia

So I love that even in very mainstream pockets we’re seeing a little infusion of the frump aesthetic. People are like, comfort actually matters. 

But even more than that, I love what you’re talking about here about embracing different silhouettes and that this has its own goals. That is so refreshing. I’m just thinking about layering frump over the mom bod conversation, which I know is not your life, but for those of us who are in our 40s have kids, there’s this perpetual message that were I to, quote, “give up,” and be comfortable, I would be just settling as a mom. The mom bod would be this big failure as opposed to just like an equally valuable way to be a human being. Frump is maybe the answer?

Emma

I hope it’s part of the answer. Maybe it’s all about like, you want to have ten choices of how to get dressed in the morning instead of one. I felt like when I was in my 20s there was only one way, which was some idea of sexy adult woman. Flattering, minimizing, making the hourglass, all the things. All the things that you and Dacy talk about with a sense of creating a silhouette that’s flattering, which is really just minimizing flesh, as we know, and creating am idealized shape that doesn’t always exist for a lot of people. 

I’m just really excited about whatever we call it, whether we call it like frump or dressing for the female gaze. On TikTok they also call it, like, Swedish or Norwegian, film festival fashion or something. I’m very here for that. Whatever you want to call it. There are so many other styles, too. I just hope that we get like 10 or 20 or 30 options in the future, rather than one if you’re a person who’s a woman-ish. 

Virginia

And doesn’t want to just always get dressed thinking, “how do I lead with my body in this one specific male gaze way?”

You mentioned this in the piece and when I was then looking on TikTok, I did see a lot of the most popular examples of frump are on thin bodies. That’s sort of adjacent to the normcore thing, right? Where skinny models wear giant jeans and white sweatshirts and Reeboks and are like, “it’s normcore!” What do you think it means for fat folks specifically to dress frump?

Emma

I think it has a different valence and a different meaning for fat folks to dress frump. Again, so many of the Sexy Adult Woman shapes and fabrics are designed to make our bodies smaller—that is not so for frump fashion. Again, we’re adding layers. We’re going oversized. We’re drawing attention to our bodies with bold patterns and weird bows. 

Part of Sexy Adult Woman, we are taught, is minimizing. Like, attract attention to the right places, like our tits and our ass and whatever. But it’s also supposed to not attract attention in a lot of ways.

I think frump does attract attention and that’s been something that was uncomfortable for me. I will speak for myself. At first dressing more oversized, embracing different shapes and silhouettes and doing things that are just a little bit strange or having weird scrunchies in my hair—like, people do look at you. And I don’t know how I feel about that, always. 

And to bring it back to our conversation about the narrator in Housemates. There’s a power in being looked at and observed and seen. And then sometimes there’s an exciting power in being unseen. It kind of depends on the day. Sometimes I’m like, I’m down for being seen today. And then other days I’m like, please don’t look at me. Just look away.

So I wonder if there are different ways to think about the effect of frump on the eye. Like, sometimes the effect of frump is to shock the eye and to make the eye excited and then other times the effect of frump is to make us invisible. I’m kind of here for that invisibility cloak that frump can allow, too.

I think I get something really joyful out of the youthfulness of frump, too. There’s something about fat people dressing youthfully that makes that fills my heart with joy and makes me feel a little bit like I’m like reclaiming or re-experiencing some of the choices and fashions that I wanted to make as a kid when my body was not cherished. I was a plump to fat child as well. 

Virginia

The clothing options back then were dismal. 

Emma

Very bad. I feel a little bit like I’m like healing my fat inner child when I dress frump, too.

Virginia

Where I get stuck sometimes is worrying about that perception and thinking, “Will this outfit be read as stylish on my fat body when I know it would be read as stylish if a thin person wore it?”

Emma

Yeah. It’s tough. There are some days where I know this isn’t going to read successfully and I feel bad about that. And there are some days where I know this isn’t going to read successfully and I’m okay with that. I like what you said about will this be perceived as stylish. I think sometimes you have to take frump to a ten to be perceived as stylish. The one through five can be a wiggly wobbly area. So sometimes I think I aim for a six and above when I want to be stylish, because it’s the pizzazz.

Virginia

This was clearly a choice.

Emma

This was a choice. I think that’s what you’re talking about is you want to convey that this was intentional, not a failure. I think a lot about how do I convey that? I am intentionally making this choice. That’s part of the reclamation, it’s “I’m aware.”

Virginia

“I have reclaimed an entire word and genre of dressing. I am aware that this is a conscious choice to be stylish.”

Just to drill into that for a second because I feel like people listening are going to be like, "Okay, I want to dress frump. Tell me how.” Are there specific favorite pieces? Or styling tricks you use that you’re like, “this is what elevates it when I want to go there?”

Emma

It’s a constant evolution. We don’t have all the money in the world or all the time in the world. But things that I find do read more intentional are things like really unexpected shapes. 

Like, I have these really weird bubble sandals that are—I think they’re even Uggs. (Similar.)

Virginia

Oh, I have the clogs! They’re big rubber shoes?

Emma

Exactly. This is a big deal for me too because I grew up, like, oppressed by the Ugg boots of the girls that I went to high school with. I swore I would never wear Uggs. But now I’m like, fun colored Uggs! I think color is a huge part of it. I do think that color is essential for frump, so choosing colors that feel a little bit bonkers. Like chartreuse and bright pinks and neon. I’m having a lot of fun with neon lately. 

My hair is a never ending source of despair. I don’t think I’ve like mastered the frump hair life. I guess if we were going to go full frump it would be like complicated braids. Do you remember that hair braiding book from when we were kids?

Virginia

Oh, was it a Klutz Press? Yes, yes. It had the color photos and something on the bottom? 

Emma

I think it was called, like, Braids and Bows or something? 

Virginia

This is how I learned to braid!

Emma

It had ribbon braids and fish tails and stuff. I don’t know, maybe the ultimate frump hairstyle is just my greasy hair. Depends on the day, as we’ve been saying. 

I’m really gravitating towards dresses that don’t show my cleavage. I have large boobs. It’s been like a journey for me to be like, how do I feel about that?

Which Leah also does in the novel—I gave her very large boobs, which is a thing for like non-binary folks. Like she’s thinking a lot about like gender dysphoria, but also just having large boobs in the world. 

So I’ve been wearing a lot of clothes that are high necked or almost turtlenecks, which was another thing that I feel like I was told as a kid, don’t do that. Because if you’re fat or you have big boobs, don’t wear turtlenecks. It looks bad. It’s not flattering. And I’m like, but actually it’s comfortable. It makes me feel like locked and loaded for my boobs. I just feel more myself in those kinds of necklines. 

Virginia

I recently discovered a new lime of swimwear called Lime Ricki, which turns out to be a Mormon brand.

Emma

I haven’t heard of it!

Virginia

Instagram served it to me, and it will now serve it to you because I’m saying that name out loud. But it’s pretty size inclusive, it goes up to 4x. And the patterns are very frump-adjacent. There are a lot of really bright colors. And because it’s a Mormon line, it’s very modest.

Emma

 Love it.

Virginia

Having a high neck swimsuit in a really great pattern? It’s so exciting!

Emma

That’s a hot tip. I like that. 

Virginia

Check it out. 

Emma

It’s it’s interesting because I’m not ashamed of my boobs. I would just like to have the choice about where they go and how they fit and where they live. 

Virginia

How big of a focus are they getting today!

Emma

Exactly, exactly. 

Virginia

I’m a big fan of them, but that doesn’t mean they’re for everybody. 

I know writing about style is not your primary thing. You’re a brilliant novelist and reporter, but also the way you articulated that just gave me a lot to think about. So I appreciate you getting into frumpiness with me, too. 

Emma

Because I am bisexual and bigenre, I have to pick two. That’s just how it is. It’s been a great and exciting and sometimes stressful season leading up to releasing a book, and one thing that has been keeping me alive is there’s a show on HBO Max called Dog House UK—I don’t know if you’re familiar? 

Virginia

I’m not, but I’m intrigued. 

Emma

I’m about to change some lives. It is the most soothing show about dogs and healing. It is a place in the wilds outside of a major UK city—is it London? No one knows. But it’s a beautiful green sanctuary where dogs who have been abandoned or neglected or are no longer wanted are brought in and each dog gets a caring British human assigned to them to love them and nurture them and work on their behavioral issues.

Virginia

I need to watch this with my 10-year-old.

Emma

That’s only half of it. And then sweet British people come in who are like, “I’m looking for my soulmate in a dog form,” or like “I lost my sister to cancer and I’m having a hard time,” and these sweet British people go into the back with their computer in their like dee dee dee and they look through all the dogs they have and then they matchmake the humans with the dogs. You get to watch these humans and dogs meeting and joyfully experiencing each other falling in love for the first time. It doesn’t always work out as is the case in life and no one is pressured to marry their dog soulmate on the spot, but it often does. It’s like two for three usually per episode which is pretty good.

I get worried about the dogs who are not adopted of course so I really appreciate that at the end they’re like don’t worry, Rosie the fat Beagle found her forever home. Like, don’t worry she’ll be fine. 

Virginia

I’m sure doing the show they’re getting a lot of write ins like, does Rosie need a home? I mean, they’re tapping into a nice wide audience. That’s reassuring.

Emma

I should say though, relevant to your listening audience that there is sometimes a little bit of dog fatphobia on the show. 

Virginia

Oh,  Corinne keeps wanting to do a piece about this! We talk about this all the time. Pet fatphobia is a weird thing.

Emma

It’s a weird thing. On the show they’re like Rosie the fat Beagle could really stand to lose a few pounds! And I’m like, calm down. Rosie is fine. 

Virginia

She’s perfect. 

Emma

She’s an angel. Do not touch her. So, trigger warning for people.

So that’s what gets me to sleep and through my days, which is essential.

And then I want to recommend a crop of cool books coming out with fat people in them that I feel like people should know. One of them is an older book that I think you already read, Big Girl by Mecca Jamilah Sullivan, about a fat Black girl in Harlem. It’s also about music. It’s a beautiful book. It’s a really complicated story about hunger and art and becoming the person you want to be. 

Also, there’s a new book out called skin and bones by Renée Watson that just came out a couple of months ago. I haven’t read it yet, but I read an excerpt of it and it’s beautiful. It’s also really explicit about weight and diet culture, but really complicated and nuanced. I’m really excited to read it.

Virginia

Yeah, that looks phenomenal.

Emma

So that’s technically three, because I’m trisexual apparently, but I love it.

Virginia

Here for all of it. Number one I need to watch that with my 10 year old, we have a very beloved family dog. But my kids are frequently suggesting we need a second dog, which I have complicated feelings about because they also think we need kittens. And we are a house that has two rescue geckos, so the whole situation is getting out of hand.

Emma

The second dog thing is a major plot line of the show. Maybe you all should watch and discuss. 

Virginia

That’s what I’m thinking. I need to know though, will it help me not do it? Or will it mean we ended up with five dogs? I need to know which way it’s going to push me.

Emma

I’m guessing the five dog route. Well, actually—sometimes owners come in with their really picky little dogs and and they’re like, “Fred needs a friend.” And then Fred meets all the dogs and he’s like, all these dogs suck and the couple is like, okay, like maybe Fred doesn’t need a friend. So it depends on the vibes. There are different episodes but basically they’re pro-multiple dogs. I will tell you that.

Virginia

All right, that’s complicated. I’m appreciate that trigger warning for me as a parent navigating pressure. 

Emma

The multiple dog landscape.

Virginia

On a related note, I think my Butter is going to be Monty Don! He is a British gardening celebrity and a wise gardening soul. Because in the UK, they have gardening celebrities because gardening is the national pastime, other than dogs. And he has the show Gardener’s World that is a very long running BBC gardening show, it has been around for like 40 years. Not always hosted by Monty Don, but hosted by him for a long time. 

Emma

Great name. 

Virginia

Yes, he’s a delightful, older British gentleman who gardens in cardigans and his wellies. He’s wonderful. The show is wonderful. It was my pandemic comfort watch with my kid. And I have been off it for a few seasons, but I’m getting back into it. Because it’s garden season right now so I just want plant content constantly. They just do these lovely segments where they find this elderly person and who is the foremost dahlia gardener in England orhas the country’s largest collection of delphiniums and he lives on a regular little suburban neighborhood tract house.

Emma

How do you watch it?

Virginia

We watched it on Britbox, which I may need to re-subscribe to in order to do this. I think you can maybe sometimes watch some episodes other places as well. I will put that info in the show notes: Roku, Apple TV.

But it is so soothing and you will want to garden but even if you don’t like gardening, just watching people be so passionate about these niche hobbies of “I raise primroses and grow 47 different kinds of primroses.”

Emma

What I need right now to sleep, so all of your recs are appreciated. 

Virginia

I think it will help you during the book launch stress. 

Emma

I love that.

Virginia

Emma, this was so much fun. Thank you for coming on. Tell folks how we can follow you, how we can support your work. Number one, of course everyone needs to go buy Housemates!

Emma

This was a delight. Thank you so much. Yeah, I am on all platforms. Tiktok, Instagram @Frumpenberg because, brand consistency. I would love if people buy Housemates from your local bookstore, pick a fave, pick bookshop.org. Whatever works for you. That’s the main most important way, so that I can live on to write another book.

Virginia

We can’t wait. Thank you. This was so fun.

---

The Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith (follow me on Instagram) and Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus, and Big Undies. 

The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe.

Our theme music is by Jeff Bailey and Chris Maxwell.

Tommy Harron is our audio engineer.

Thanks for listening and for supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism!

We are Virginia Sole-Smith and Corinne Fay, and it’s time for your May Indulgence Gospel. And because it is Fat Swim Week, we are doing an entire swim-themed episode for you!

We’ll get into:

• Can we reclaim the swim dress? (But do we want to?)

• Why is the Lands End swimsuit website SO bad?

• How to get sunscreen in impossible-to-reach spots?

• Why does Corinne hate flip flops?

• Even more thoughts on visible pubic hair.

And so much more about how to show up fat at the pool or beach this summer and have an absolute blast.

This is a paywalled episode. That means to hear the whole thing you’ll need to be a paid Burnt Toast subscriber. Subscriptions are $5 per month or $50 for the year.

If you’re already a paid subscriber, you can add on a subscription to Big Undies, Corinne’s new Substack about clothes, for 20% off.

You’re absolutely going to want to read yesterday’s Swimsuit Science roundup as a companion to this episode.

This transcript contains affiliate links. Shopping our links is another great way to support Burnt Toast!

Corinne

We’re going to dive right into the questions. 

Virginia

No pants chat this time. We’ve got swimsuit chat to get to. 

Corinne

The first question is one that we got a lot of iterations of, and it’s basically about boobs.

I need a swimsuit rec for chasing kids around the beach that I don’t have to tug on, adjust and feel like I’m going to spill out of?

Virginia

There were so many versions of this one: How do I get any decent boob support? How do I play at the pool with my kids without my boobs falling out? This is the peak mom swim question, I think, assuming you are a person with boobs.

And it’s really hard because so many of the swimsuits and especially swimsuits marketed for plus size— we were just looking at Nicole Byer’s super cute line—are very cleavage forward. It’s let’s make fat women look very sexy at the pool, which I’m here for… but not when I’m at the pool with my kids, or my parents. It’s just not everybody’s vibe all the time.

Corinne

The other thing I noticed when I was trying to research this a little bit was it seems like there are a bunch of swim lines that are designed for larger cup sizes for straight-size people. But it was much harder to find large cup sizes for plus sizes.

Virginia

Which, the plight of the DDD cup size 2 woman—I see how that’s a clothing challenge. But the world was built for your body in a lot of ways. 

Corinne

Aren’t there entire magazines dedicated to photographing you?

Virginia

Exactly. If your band size is 38 and up, it gets a lot trickier. 

My number one hack for this is wearing a sports bra as a swimsuit top and then wearing a high waisted swim bottom. I think it’s cute. I tend to do solid colored sports bras plus a bottom in a fun print. So it feels like there’s still some style, but the top is just going to be so much more supportive. 

Because underwire swim bra tops are just not built like bras. I don’t really understand why. The bra companies know how to make bras, so you would think they could make swimsuit tops, but they can’t. They can make sexy swimsuit tops, but not hold-you-in swimsuit tops.

So I tend to wear these sports bras from Girlfriend Collective. I have them in a couple colors, like black, navy blue, light blue. I also have a now-defunct Target sports bra that’s really great, in a hot pink. And they tend to dry just as fast as swimsuits do. That’s kind of my go to for this.

Corinne

Yeah, that’s a good tip. I was thinking, if I were going to be in a situation where I needed to chase a child around a pool or the beach—

Virginia

Corinne is marked safe from chasing children. You can just be sexy all the time at the pool.

Corinne

Yeah, my top goal. But even if I were fully clothed, I would want to be wearing a sports bra.

Virginia

Exactly. Like, what would I wear to a playground or a trampoline park? Which, by the way, is my hellscape of parenting. I try to never go to them. But were I to go, I would definitely be wearing a sports bra. 

Similarly, bike shorts can be great for this. Take your workout clothes, is what we’re saying. Whatever you would work out in in the summer, you can probably swim in it, because it’s probably not that much clothing and that many layers.

Corinne

We also got a nice reader rec for this.

It doesn’t have to be sold as swimwear for it to work as swimwear. After years thinking the perfect swim top would be a sports bra, I just wore a sports bra as a swim top.

And they recommend getting a bra with a zip front.

Virginia

That is super smart. I have gotten kind of trapped in a wet sports bra before. I saw SuperFit Hero makes a cute zip up swimsuit top that feels like it has very sports bra quality to it. That’s a great option. 

The other brand we can talk about here is the brand we got tons of recs for. And I own many of their swimsuits. Land’s End is kind of a go-to for the mom suit.

I will say their website is an absolute dumpster fire. They shoot all of  the swimsuits on I think it’s a CGI model. It’s not a human being. It’s just photoshopped, one swimsuit after another on the same model that is not a human. It’s very disorienting. 

Corinne

Every time I go to the website, it takes forever to load. You find one product and then you have to find the same one in plus sizes to order. It’s so confusing.

Virginia

It’s definitely more desktop friendly than phone friendly. This is one to do on your computer. Set aside some time. Have a snack. You’re going to be on the Land’s End website for a while, and it’s not going to be great.

The best Land’s End ever did was a Draper James collab, which is Reese Witherspoon’s line. That gave us a couple of seasons of very cute plus size swimwear. There was all this gingham and fun colorblocking. And unfortunately that line is almost sold out! I’m always still stalking to see if any new pieces will come out and they haven’t. The styling has never been quite as good since then. 

But I will say if you want, like, a basic black swimsuit, whether you need a one piece, a tankini, a skirt option, a shorts option—they do all of it. And it will last forever. You will be passing this swimsuit down to your daughter. It’s industrial quality. So I have bought lots of pieces from them just because I know they do hold up. 

Corinne

Worth notig that it goes to a 3x 24/26 and it’s definitely not the biggest 24/26 I’ve ever seen.

Virginia

No, definitely not. I mean swim in general tends to run small. I have made the mistake of sizing up for swimwear to be comfortable and then when you get in the water it ends up too big. So I do think this is an argument for, if it feels tight when you put it on, that might be okay once you’re swimming in it. But yeah, they definitely need to expand past 3x for sure.

Corinne

Alright, the next question was another super popular one.

Would love any swimwear recs for suits / bottoms that don’t necessitate / encourage shaving your pubic line. Suits with a traditional bottom cut and a skirt over the top don’t count. Thanks.

If you can cover this, would love to just wear a suit without having to even think about whether to remove hair or not. 

Virginia

Oh, my God, I feel you. Me too. I would love this. 

I don’t know why we’re throwing out the traditional bottoms with a skirt over the top. I think that might be one of the options we have to explore here. I just want to keep it in the mix is all I’m saying. I understand the resistance to it. But I think you have to keep it in the mix.

Corinne

The thing I want to say about swim dresses is I feel like they do get a really bad rap for being just like this ugly mom thing.

Virginia

The sad fat lady option.

Corinne

But I feel like there are some cuter ones now?

Virginia

Yes! I do think the styling has improved. If you’re gonna go this route, don’t get a tropical print. What we’re all thinking of is the tropical print like the purple and teal swirl design. Look for good solid colors. Which is not to say fat people have to wear black—that’s another thing we get told. But there’s something very chic about a well-fitting black swimsuit that a well-fitting tropical print swimsuit can never quite achieve for you. But maybe there’s a great cobalt blue or kelly green or raspberry? So, I think we can’t throw the swim skirt out too fast.

Corinne

I think your options are either a swim skirt/dress or shorts. Like bike shorts or swim shorts.

Virginia

Or board shorts. 

Corinne

I do think there are a lot of cute swim short options now.

Virginia

There’s a style that gets called boy short which I never really understand why we call it boy short. But it’s much shorter than a bike short. Depending on how your body hair grows, you can probably get away without shaving with that. We should also hold space that some people don’t care about this and are happy to have their pubic hair be visible and I support you. 

Corinne

I have body hair privilege.

Virginia

Can you explain your body hair privilege?

Corinne

 I just don’t have a lot of body hair. It’s honestly to the point where I feel self conscious about it sometimes. I don’t have a lot of armpit hair. It’s purely genetic, neither of my parents have a lot of body hair. I do not need to shave my legs. 

Virginia

What you need to know is neither of my parents have a lot of body hair either. And something happened. 

Corinne

Wow. Fascinating. 

Virginia

Because I have all the body hair, for everybody. So I feel you, fellow hairy people. It is such a hard thing to decide, do I just want to embrace this?

I am privileged to have a pool at my house. So do I worry about my body hair when I’m swimming with my kids in my pool at my house? Absolutely not. But if people are coming over, if I’m going to a public place… Like, I can be pro we don’t remove body here and also pro I don’t want to share my pubic hair with the town. That’s a level of intimacy I don’t feel I’m on with all of the PTA moms.

So it’s a really annoying one. And hair removal is expensive and fucks with your skin and it’s incredibly gendered labor that not everybody is expected to do and I hate it. I hate it a lot. 

Corinne

What is your solution?

Virginia

I have waxed for a long time because I get really bad rashes with shaving. I have pretty sensitive skin. But the waxer that I love around here just moved to England. So now I don’t know what I’m doing. I’m bereft but also I’m like, oh, maybe I just don’t do this for a while. But does that mean only swim skirts forever? I don’t know. 

Corinne

I just want to mention some shorts options. I know Alder Apparel and Universal Standard both have quick dry shorts. I have the Alder Apparel ones and I love them and I wear them in my regular life as shorts. There are also the sort of more nonbinary swimsuit style of it’s a tank on top and shorts on the bottom that you can get from like TomboyX or there’s another brand called Beefcake Swimwear that both have that style. Good American also has swim shorts.

Virginia

Oh, yeah, that is a cute style. Maybe I need to try this.

Corinne

Yeah, TomboyX has a lot of cute colors. And then I’ve also been seeing some swim rompers making the rounds, which are like kind of a looser thing in that similar style.

Virginia

It’s this thing of like, we shouldn’t be ashamed of our bodies. We’re allowed to be there. Bodies are just bodies. We’d all be better off if there was way less squeamishness around this. And, if I’m going to see the guy who also teaches my kids ukulele lesson, do I need to know him in that way?

Corinne

Well, and back to the question about like tugging and stuff, sometimes it’s more comfortable to just not have to think about it. 

Virginia

The next question is:

Need a plus size around a 3x wetsuit recommendations for a client who is participating in an upcoming open water swim.

Wetsuits are torture. I’m sorry, they’re so hard to fit. I’ve only had bad experiences wearing them and I have nothing to share. 

Corinne

Yeah, this question is a real bummer because there are so few options. I was remembering that I had seen a plus size wetsuit brand. And then when I went to find them, they’re closing. So there was a brand called Truli that was doing wetsuits—and by plus size, up to a size 24. They’re closing, they’re sold out of plus sizes. They do have a Facebook group where people buy and resell and trade so you could check there.

Virginia

Oh, thats good to check out.

Corinne

There is a person on instagram named Kanoa Green who is a plus size surfer adventure person. I think she’s based in Hawaii. And I think she has some recommendations for plus size wetsuits. One of the brands is 124 West, they go up to a 4x but the 4x is like a 47 inch chest. 

There’s also Wetsuit Wearhouse, they have men’s wetsuits that go up to a 54 inch chest, but it’s going to be for a tall person.

Virginia

Yeah. Checking men’s make sense, except wet suits need to fit you pretty specifically. And if it’s too long, it’s going to drag down on you in the water and you’re going to be drowning in this thing.

Corinne

Yes. I did find a couple of other things that we can link to in the transcript. I found one on Amazon. No idea how good it is. And then a brand in the UK selling wet suits called Tri Suits. They have one called the Yonda wetsuit that goes up to like 330 pounds—because a lot of them are by weight—and a 55 inch chest. So that’s pretty generous. But, um, yeah, kind of a bummer. And if people have other recommendations, please share them.

Virginia

This feels like one of those eternal anti-fat barriers that we need to keep dismantling. Because when you think about the culture of triathlons and other events that would have open water swims, there’s so much anti fatness, so much focus on thinness. And then when we get these questions like, why don’t fat people work out more? Like oh, yeah, maybe the sport is not accessible. It’s so aggravating.

Corinne

It is a bummer. The next question is

I’m really curious about pregnant people and finding swimsuits during and after pregnancy. I hate the thought of buying a suit that might only fit for a few weeks and then never wear it again. How would you recommend approaching this as a small fat lady approaching a third trimester during peak summer?

Virginia

Okay, so my kids are born in August and October so I feel you because I had two very hot pregnant summers to get through. When I had the first one I didn’t know if there would be subsequent children. I didn’t have a number of kids in mind. So similarly I was like I don’t want to spend a lot of money on a swimsuit that I might only wear that summer. I ended up finding a really good one at Old Navy. Disclaimer that I was still in straight sizes, I think a 12 or 14 shopping for pregnancy clothes that first time. But I still would check Old Navy because their plus size options for small fat are decent. And given their sales, you can probably get a top for under 20 bucks.

[Post recording note from Virginia: Looks like Old Navy Maternity suits only go up to XXL! So sorry!]

You might be able to wear a regular bikini bottom and just not pull it up over your belly and just get a maternity tankini top. The other option is to stick with bikinis full stop, where you don’t need the stomach coverage. That’s not everybody’s comfort of course.

You might have to get a bigger bra size because you’re pregnant now, but you could probably get like a normal bra top. You’ll get some use out of the top past the pregnancy but definitely look at Old Navy for cheap. They’ll do a Memorial Day sale and everything will be $9.

I would also crowdsource! Pregnant and formerly pregnant people love to pass on their maternity clothes because this is such an annoying time of life. This is something if you’re on any local moms groups, ask around. Does anyone have any good maternity swimsuits that they’re looking to pass on? I think you could get some good options that way.

Corinne

Yeah, I was also going to suggest maybe looking into YouSwim because they are specifically designed to fit a variety of sizes.

Virginia

I have a YouSwim bikini. When you first order it and open the envelope, you will be like, Why did I buy doll clothes? Because they are tiny. They’re this ribbed fabric. And then you put it on it stretches quite dramatically.

Corinne

And they only have two sizes, one is 0-14 and one is 14-24.

Virginia

They annoyingly are not making all of their suits in the bigger size. I’m very irritated about this because they also have this very cute longline bikini that I really want that they don’t make in the 14 to 24. 

Corinne

And the colors are very limited. I want to try them, but I just don’t like any of the colors they have in the bigger size. At least right now. 

Virginia

I will also say it is not a boob support swimsuit. My boobs look awesome in it, but they’re more visible. You’re not going to go jogging on the beach. I mean, you’re pregnant. You don’t need to be doing that. But maybe look at them for bottoms, I would say, because the stretch is pretty good. 

Okay, I’m going to read the next question. We got multiple versions of this question too because I think it’s getting at a core dilemma. And maybe we already hit on a little bit with the discussion of swim dresses and swim skirts, but this is a core dilemma as a fat person showing up in swimwear. So this person writes, 

I do not want to remove my pubic hair in order to enjoy swimming. Plus, I’m very sun conscious, so I like to be covered up. The result is I’m often in surf outfits that have shorts and sleeves. It’s great for what I’m trying to achieve, but I feel self conscious because I’m fat and worry people assume I’m dressed like this because I’m trying to cover up my body, like an adult version of wearing a big T shirt over a bathing suit.

I feel like I’m sending a message that I’m ashamed of my body and by association that other fat people should be, too. Even though in reality I’m just trying to care for my body by not waxing or getting sunburned. I don’t know that there’s a question here other than help. 

Yeah, this is really real.

Corinne

It’s a dilemma. I mean, my thoughts are: Take care of yourself. And don’t worry what other people are thinking.

Virginia

You don’t owe anyone a political statement about fat people in swimwear if you want to go swimming. It’s an interesting double standard, because you wouldn’t make the same assumption about a thin person wearing surf shorts or a swim skirt. 

Corinne

I definitely live somewhere where a lot of people wear stuff like this just because of the sun. You can’t be in the pool for very long without sun protection. 

Virginia

I think in general, the cultural awareness around sun protection is changing. It’s more normalized that you don’t want to be uncovered. But I know what this person is talking about because I have gone to a lot of public pools and beaches where I see moms slathering their children in sunscreen, putting their children in full body rashguards, putting their children in sun hats, like a child has to wear their hat into the pool to swim. And then the mom is in a bikini. Like maybe a big hat and maybe they have a cute cover up. But there’s still this thing of as a woman or a female presenting person at the beach, I have to look sexy and be uncovered. And I struggle with that. Both the pressure to do it and I have complicated feelings about it.

Corinne

It is a complicated question. I don’t know that there’s a good way to dress in a way that meets the needs of your body while telegraphing to other people that you’re not ashamed of your body.

Virginia

Yeah. I think just the fact that you’re showing up and I assume swimming and enjoying yourself at the pool, I think that is showing that you know you belong there. People questioning it, or misinterpreting what you’re doing, that’s really them revealing more about themselves than anything. But I understand this confusion of perception. I think it is why a lot of us feel like UGH about the swim skirts and the swim dresses. Because it feels like that’s all we were told to wear and because it feels like well, if I’m doing that I’m somehow signposting to the world, like, “fat mom at the beach in the swim dress.”

Corinne

I think it’s more important to be comfortable and not having to remove body hair or get a sunburn at the pool than it is to be trying to send a message to other fat folks that you’re not ashamed of your body or their body. That’s the the side I would land on with that.

Virginia

I agree. And by showing up in that type of swimwear, you are also subverting the norm that women should reveal their bodies at the beach. You are challenging the patriarchy nicely that way. That’s also valuable. 

Okay, the next question is

Recs for swimsuits size 5x and up?

Corinne, what have you got for us?

Corinne

There are a bunch of brands that go up to a 5x. Over a 5x, Superfit Hero, which you mentioned, they go up to a 7x. They have some very cute stuff and it all looks comfortable and supportive. They also have rash guard tops and stuff like that. Swim shorts. It’s practical.

Swimsuits For All has some styles up to a size 44. Ulla Popken has very few styles up to a size 38. Tamara Malas has up to a 34/36. Then we’re getting into the ones that go more like up to a size 30 or 5x, but Villa Fresca, which is Gabifresh’s new swim brand, Bloomchic goes up to a 30, Eloquii goes up to a 32, Universal Standard has up to a size 30. Beefcake Swimwear, which is one of the kind of nonbinary style goes up to a 5x and Nomads goes up to a 5x.

 Virginia

Are there any of those brands that you have tried or have specific style notes about? 

Corinne

I’ve tried Swimsuits For All, not super recently. I’ve tried Eloquii, also not super recently. Eloquii’s stuff was good, if it’s your style. Well made, holds up. And then yeah, Swimsuits For All just has tons of stuff, just tons. 

Virginia

That’s a little bit of a grab bag, right? Because it’s lots of different brands.

Corinne

I think they have different brands and I think they have their own brands as well. I think their own brand stuff is pretty basic, but I the fact that they have anything up to a size 44 is pretty significant I think.

Virginia

I am noticing and I’m slightly annoyed that on Swimsuits For All if I search by one pieces, it only goes up to 34. Yet if I search by swim dresses, it goes up to 42.

Corinne

Yes, I do think the larger size things are a little bit more, like, modesty-oriented.

Virginia

That is irritating, right? That other questioner is not wrong. That is irritating. You don’t have to wear a swim dress. I mean, some of them are cute, but why are there not more options?

I think, unfortunately, the other advice here is—and this is what I do anytime I order swimwear—is you have to order a whole bunch of stuff. You have to have an evening, maybe a glass of wine or an edible, whatever you might need, some chocolate. And you need to resign yourself to I’m going to try and a bunch of stuff. And 80 percent of it is going to be absolute trash. And I’m going to have to return it. I know when I order everything I’m going to UPS at some point. That’s an another annoying errand and that is the process for finding swimwear as a fat person.

Corinne

And you have to make sure you don’t accidentally remove the hygienic liner.

Virginia

The crotch sticker!

Corinne

Which always happens to me. It sticks to my underwear.

Virginia

Yeah, it’s just an annoying process and you’re going to have to go through it.

Corinne

All right, next we have a bunch of questions about sun protection.

Plus size rash guards? Where to get a good cover up?

Virginia

I am more useful on cover ups than rash guards. Do you have rash guard thoughts first?

Corinne

I just ordered a rashguard from Land’s End, so Land’s End definitely has them. Superfit Hero definitely has them. 

Virginia

I have had them from Athleta which is not fully size inclusive. I think they go up to a 3x but I don’t know how good of a 3x that is. I think mine is probably a 2x from them. And randomly J Crew factory outlet—I have one from there that is a 2x. And it was super cheap.

Because I’m that mom who’s slathering my children in sunscreen but neglecting my own protection, I often don’t feel like wearing rash guard. I don’t like the feel of them in the water, it’s kind of a sensory thing for me. I don’t like sitting in a wet rash guard, so I don’t know, it’s a tough sell for me. But I will do a hat and I will do a cover up and I will keep my cover up on a lot of the time when I’m at the beach or the pool because I am not trying to tan. 

My favorite things for cover ups are, especially if you’re traveling and going to be swimming, is to pack some dresses that you would wear out, and could also wear as a cover up. One of my favorites is actually like this old silk Anthropologie dress that’s a mumu style but it’s knee length and has a big V neck. It’s really pretty and I always get compliments on it because it’s sort of dressy for a pool. But it works really well. And then if I wanted to wear it to dinner later, I could. 

I do a lot of big shirt dresses. I think there are just more options sometimes. I think a lot of the cover ups marketed as cover ups, it’s kind of like they created a need so they could sell a product a little bit? I also really love my chambray button down shirt from Universal Standard. Just like wearing that open over a swimsuit or any big button down shirt, I think, is a good cover up. I think it like looks pretty stylish in a way that some of the sold as a cover up options don’t. 

Corinne

Yeah, I usually go for either like a robe-ish thing or a dress that opens in the front, like buttons down. I have like a I guess it’s a dress thing from Oddbird that I like as a cover up. And then also I really like Peridot Robes. 

Virginia

Ooh, yeah. Your Peridot robe is good.

Corinne

This is the question I didn’t know that I had:

But how are we applying sunscreen in 2024 to the hard to reach body parts? 

Virginia

Man, this is a great question. 

Corinne

I need someone to tell me because I don’t know. I feel like I usually get the spray stuff and try to reach as far as you can to spray it on my back and hope I’m not missing a spot. Or ask a friend to do it.

Virginia

This was one of the good uses of a husband. Having a partner who will spray your back for you. And yeah, obviously you could ask a friend. You don’t need to get married.

Corinne

It is surprisingly intimate, though. To be like, can you lather my body?

Virginia

I agree. And I wouldn’t ask my kids because I don’t trust their application skills to be reliable. I mean, this is where a rash guard is useful. Sometimes what I will do is not worry about the sunscreen on my back while I’m just sitting on the lounge chair and maybe leave my cover up on but then if I’m going to go out in the water for a while, then I will make myself wear a rash guard so I don’t have to worry about my back so much. 

Corinne

But yeah, I would love to know if there is like some tool. 

Virginia

Yeah, there should be. 

Corinne

Like a back scratcher for sunscreen?

Virginia

Both my kids have different sensory aversions to sunscreen. One of my kids will only do the stick or the roll on sunscreens. And I have to say, it feels like you could have like a grabber that you could use for that. We need the technology. So people drop that in the comments if you have other tips for getting your sunscreen on your own back and other hard to reach places.

Corinne

What about size fat towels?

Virginia

Well certainly Towel the brand that we had a podcast episode about, with Mary Carney.

I haven’t used them for the pool but I love them so much. They’re in my shower. But I do have her towel and they are so fluffy and delicious and giant and she designs them to fit up to a 7x so super size inclusive.

Corinne

There are a few plus-sized towel brands, but I feel like none of them are making specifically beach or pool towel. 

Virginia

Beach towels in general often run larger so they might be thinking there’s less of a need? Because the towels we use at our pool are some Target beach towels from many summers ago (similar) and they are—I had one in my bathroom and compared—much bigger than my regular bath towels. So for a long time, beach towel was the tip you got for how to get regular towels to work. So there are some options but I agree I would love to see one of these fat towel brands doing like fun, beachy patterns.

Corinne

I also like Oddbird for towels because they do those like super thin Turkish towel kind of thing. I like because lugging around a beach towel is such a a pain sometimes.

Virginia

Yeah, the Towel brand would not work to go to the pool because they’re heavy. It’s very thick. 

Corinne

Yeah. And I find that the the Oddbird ones fit me. They usually list the measurements.

Virginia

That’s really good. Oh, and they’re cute, too. I might want some of these. 

Corinne

But it’s more of a keep cool towel than a keep a warm towel, if you’re in a cold climate.

Virginia

Okay, we got a recommendation for Havaianas flip flops. And Corinne wanted to cut it from this episode because I have learned that Corinne is militantly anti flip flop, and I’m sorry to have to inform you all of that. I think this is possibly Corinne’s version of Birkenstocks and skinny jeans. 

I’m gonna read this real quick and then Corinne can tear it apart. Okay, this person said:

I’d like to shout out havaianas flip flops. I recently realized I’ve been wearing the same pair for 11 years and they haven’t aged much at all. I just looked at the price and I’m shocked they’re only $20 to $30. I guess that’s what was pretty expensive in my mind when I bought them as a literal child, 27 years old.

Wow. So what’s the deal?

Corinne

I mean, I just don’t like them? I don’t like how they look and I don’t like the sound that they make. 

Virginia

The slapping?

Corinne

I was thinking the origin of this must be literally high school or something. But then I was recalling that I’m pretty sure I wore flip flops to my senior prom. 

Virginia

So you’ve had a reversal on this. You used to be pro flip flops. You’ve flip flopped!  

Corinne

I feel like to me now they signify something that I don’t like. You wear flip flops, right?

Virginia

I do. Not all the time, but definitely for travel. If I’m going to be swimming for traveling, I always throw flip flops in because they take up no space in your suitcase versusanother pair of Birkenstocks or something that are going to be bulkier. Again, the bulky sandal.

What I don’t love about them actually, this is like very in the weeds, but I have noticed in recent years with the flapping and the way it hits your foot, if I wear them all day, I will end up with heel cracks from it. My feet can’t take it anymore. So, that is legit not for everybody. And for sure they have no arch support. You couldn’t walk miles in them. So to me, they’re specifically for like, “I’m going from the parking lot to the pool.” They can’t be beat for that.

Corinne

I don’t like the smacking and for that walk, I’m using the plastic Birkenstocks.

Virginia

I am really craving a pair of the thong-style plastic Birkenstocks. I have the regular ones and I love them, but I garden in them so they’re very muddy a lot of time. I feel like they wouldn’t work for going out and about. 

Corinne

I kind of want to get a pair of the plastic Birkenstock clogs because I feel like those would be good, because then you wouldn’t get like sand in your or dirt in your shoes.

Virginia

But don’t you think it would just come in the sides? I don’t trust that.

Well, apparently this is a very controversial shoe, the flip flop. So listeners, tell us your opinions on them, pro or con. I’m very curious to find out because I thought they were just sort of a given of swimwear life.

Our last question, I think, is a really, really good one to end on. 

Would love thoughts on navigating public pools. There are lots of thin moms at mine and I’m ready to not compare myself to them at all this go round.

Corinne

Yeah, this was such an interesting one for me, because I am a frequent public pool goer. One of the things I like about a public pool is that there’s just a lot of people there with different bodies. 

Virginia

Yeah. I agree. I think I’m often in my head before I go about this issue and how I’ll feel about it. Then when I get there, I’m like, oh right. Real life is not an Instagram reel. Models are not hanging out at my pool.

Corinne

I always just end up feeling good because I’m like, “Oh, there’s a fat teenager wearing a bikini and men with tons of body hair.” People are there to get cool, you know? Not to display themselves. 

Virginia

Totally. And maybe that’s one tip is like, look beyond the thin moms. I get, depending on what your community is, there may be a lot of thin moms at your pool. There certainly would be at any local pool I’d go to around here. But look for the fat teenager, look for the dads, look for the different vibes. I think fat bodies are so often rendered invisible, that it’s possible you’re focusing on the thin people, but there’s a lot more going on in your pool environment and looking and realizing you’re not as alone as you think might be really helpful. 

Corinne

Also, can you focus on why you’re at the pool? What is it about being at the pool that you like? Like you get to cool off or you get to enjoy the sunshine or whatever, rather than how do I look compared to the other people at this pool?

Virginia

The anti-fatness is very real. You’re feeling uncomfortable because, yes, your body gets scrutinized in a way that thin bodies don’t get scrutinized and all of that is true. And whenever I went to a pool as a thin person, I was just as in my head, probably more so, about what my body looked like and how it would be perceived. 

All those thin moms you’re seeing are also standing in their house debating what to do with their pubic hair, debating what kind of cover up to wear, debating how much coverage or not coverage they should have with their swimsuit. Feeling anxious about being nearly naked in public is understandable and I think universal for the most part. So just let yourself go and enjoy. 

This is something I like that Jennifer Weiner has talked about a lot over the years. She always posts a swimsuit picture in the summer because she talks about being a younger fat mom and feeling like she couldn’t be in the pictures. She didn’t want to be in the pool or whatever. So she’s always like, get in the pool with your kids. Get in the pictures. Put yourself out there because you deserve to be there. And your kids want you to be there with them. And they want those memories with you. So don’t deprive yourself. 

Corinne

And it’s fun. You’re there to have fun. 

Virginia

And if its not fun for you, that’s fine, too. I’m not saying every single person has to love public pools or swimming or any of this. But if this is something that you enjoy doing with your kids or your friends or just by yourself, you deserve to be there.

I’m excited to hear what other folks have to say about these many contentious issues. We’ve covered a lot. Swim dresses, pubic hair, flip flops. A lot of hot button topics in this episode is all I’m going to say.

Virginia

I want to talk about pool snacks because it’s on theme and also because yesterday was our first day warm enough to have a bunch of kids in the pool. We weren’t expecting the weather to be that good, but I ended up with four kids in my pool which was so fun. 

And then they got hungry. And I think in past years, I would always be like, okay, come out of the pool and we’ll have snacks on the porch or come inside or whatever. But they clearly wanted to keep swimming, they were having a great time. And so I was like, I’m going to bring them snacks to eat IN the pool. 

The most popular snack hands down was lemon ice. The just absolute joy on these kids’ faces of like floating in the pool, eating a lemon ice on a hot day. I felt really proud of myself that I happened to have them on hand and remembered that. I also brought out popcorn which was very popular, although a little bit messier for sure. One of my children could not remember not to put their hand in the popcorn bowl. So my next goal is to get some like plastic individual snack cups for this kind of thing. 

Corinne

That’s smart. 

Virginia

Versus bringing out the one giant bowl of popcorn. But then there was like, ew, you made it wet. But yeah, good pool snacks and potato chips, too. There’s something about salty when you’re swimming a lot—it’s probably your electrolytes theory. 

Corinne

I wasn’t going to say anything.

Virginia

I put it together. They needed to replenish their electrolytes. Cape Cod potato chips are the best summer potato chip in my opinion. So when you’re doing your fat swim this summer, don’t sleep on snacks. Think about what your good snack plan is going to be. Super cool and icy or salty and crunchy are your best options. Not chocolate. It’s going to melt and be a mess.

Corinne

Yes, those are good tips. I would often go to the pool after work, from like five to six or something and I would meet friends there and we would be hanging out in the pool and all we could talk about was food. I think something about being in the water just makes you really hungry. But then we started bringing sandwiches and it was incredible.

Virginia

Sandwiches at the pool sounds great. 

Corinne

I’m also very excited about my Butter because I feel like it’s a really good Burnt Toast butter and I’m curious if you have listened to it. I recently rediscovered the Julia Louis Dreyfus podcast Wiser Than Me. Have you listened to that?

Virginia

Oh, I have not. I heard her interviewed about it, but then I never listened to actual podcast. 

Corinne

The second season just came out and basically the premise is she interviews older women. There are just a lot of interesting guests and I specifically want to recommend the episode with Isabel Allende. They get into some really interesting topics about whether Isabel Allende considers herself sexy.

I think she’s also kind of a good interviewer maybe partially because she’s also not a good interviewer? You can tell a lot of times the questions are coming from a personal place. But it’s fun to listen to and I feel like it’s just inspiring and makes me feel better about aging.

Virginia

Oh, I’m excited. I’m definitely listening to that.

---

CREDITS

The Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith (follow me on Instagram) and Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus, and Big Undies—subscribe for 20% off! 

The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe.

Our theme music is by Jeff Bailey and Chris Maxwell.

Tommy Harron is our audio engineer.

Thanks for listening and for supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism!

It’s time for your May Extra Butter! Today we are talking about the bodies of Bridgerton.

If you’re listening to this the day it drops, season three is out! We love the show. We love Nicola Coughlan. And we do not love the way the Internet talks about her body!

To listen to the full episode and read the full transcript, you’ll need to join Extra Butter, our premium subscription tier, for just $99 per year.

In addition to these monthly episodes (where we get into juicy stuff like the anti-diet to alt-right pipeline, is Kids Eat In Color anti-diet? and my post-divorce body), you’ll also get a comp to Cult of Perfect, occasional live thread discussions, and more major perks.

Plus Extra Butter ensures that the Burnt Toast community can always stay an ad- and sponsor-free space—which is crucial for body liberation journalism. Join us here!

Virginia

I am so excited for season three. I just need to express some fan excitement before we dive in. Did you did you watch it when it was first airing? 

Corinne

That’s a great question. My strong memory of first watching Bridgerton is that it was right around the time that my dad was dying and it was exactly the escape that I needed. I can’t remember if it was right before or right after, but I was like, “Take me away.”

Virginia

Erase everything.

Corinne

I was really skeptical. It just didn’t sound to me like the kind of thing I would like. And then I watched it and was like, oh no, I love this. 

Virginia

I was a Bridgerton skeptic for a very long time too! I did not watch it at all when it first came out. I can’t remember why, I think I was just being a snob? I think I was just like, “I don’t need another period drama. I’ve seen all the good period dramas.” Like, what? I don’t know.

But I got into it earlier this year. It is not a show I can watch with my kids, but I needed something fun to watch on my solo weekends and I binged it hard. I watched the first two seasons earlier this winter, and was like, where has this been all my life? I also really loved the spin off Queen Charlotte, even more maybe.

Obviously, the story is really fun, but I love all the small details—like the way they’ll do a classical interpretation of a pop song. There are a lot of layers to the production that are just very fun.

Corinne

Right? Like, it’s a period drama, but it’s also really not. The music, and also lots of people of color. 

Virginia

Obviously, I was Team Penelope from early on. She’s the best character. 

Corinne

Yes. She’s kind of the whole heart of the show because—

Spoiler Alert! (If you haven’t seen seasons 1 and 2)

Virginia

She’s Lady Whistledown! Sorry if you haven’t seen the first two seasons. There are going to be spoilers today. 

And what’s very exciting about season three is that it is Penelope’s moment! It is her season!

Do you want to talk about what you’ve been hearing about what this season might include? 

Corinne

So I haven’t read any of the books, but I’ve heard that the books are problematic. There’s some weird bad stuff in them. I have also heard that in the book that focuses on Penelope’s love story, the plot is that Penelope has always been in love with Colin but Colin doesn’t fall for Penelope or doesn’t see her until she loses a bunch of weight.

So that would be a real bummer if that were the plot of this season of the TV show. I’m feeling hopeful that it’s not going to be like that just because of the ways in which they’ve made it not exactly a period drama. 

Virginia

I want to believe Shonda is not going to do Penelope dirty. I have been fact checking this in real time by texting with my best friend who has read all the Bridgerton books. She says she does not remember book four featuring a big weight loss plot. Full disclosure, Amy is someone who is not great at remembering plots! But I think she would remember that detail. She is now live texting me some excerpts that I can read for us. I have no page numbers. 

“She was soft, curvy, and lush, just as he always thought a woman should be.”

That seems promising.

Corinne

Interesting, okay. 

Virginia

“Her hips flared, her bottom was perfect, her breasts… Good God, her breasts felt good pressing against his chest.”

Maybe we should have flagged this as an X-rated Extra Butter! 

Then Amy says, “I just found the part where her mom gave up taking her to the modiste and choosing her clothes, because she was officially on the shelf as a spinster. So now she gets to wear cooler colors and Eloise thinks she looks lovely.”

Corinne

So she’s not only fat, she’s a spinster.

Virginia

She’s been a spinster for the whole show. There has been no hope of her marrying. But I’m kind of here to stan some Eloise/Penelope stuff. That would be great. Maybe that’s the direction they take it. 

Corinne

Interesting. 

Virginia

So okay, we don’t have confirmation about whether or not the books feature a prominent weight loss plot. Commenters, you can tell us.

But it is certainly an open and ongoing concern. Any time a fat actress gets main character energy in a TV show, they are going to wedge in a weight loss plot. Whether it was in the original book or not, I would be worried about this. I want to believe that in a post-Shrill world, we have evolved past the need for that, but I don’t know that we have.

The other piece of this is, the way Nicola Coughlan’s body is discussed all the time definitely suggests that a lot of viewers of the show and a lot of media that cover the show would expect that to be part of the journey.

Corinne

Nicola has been pretty openly responsive or critical of how much her body gets talked about.

Virginia

Which is constantly, every article that’s written about her. And we should just say that is not true across the board for the Bridgerton actresses. The thinner actresses do not get this much scrutiny, which is both not surprising, because anti-fatness, and is surprising, because this is very much a show about bodies.

It’s about these women’s bodies being controlled with all the strict rules about what they can wear and how they’re getting presented to society and whether they’ll be attractive to a man. It’s also often a show about women claiming their bodies and their pleasure.

I’m blanking on the names of the two actresses who played Daphne and Kate, but you don’t see interviews with either of them having to be like, “This is how it feels to be thin as a gorgeous Hollywood actress. Against all odds I was cast as the love interest.” They’re actresses who are always cast as the love interest. That is a real disconnect. And Nicola has to keep addressing it, and I just feel her exhaustion that this is a part of every interview and every conversation. 

Corinne

It’s not just Bridgerton either! I think also for Derry Girls and everything else she’s ever done. She’s always “the fat one.” 

Virginia

Let’s talk about this Harper’s Bazaar UK piece because I think this is the big media piece that came out to help launch the new season. And it is a very rich text. What jumped out to you first?

Corinne

I thought it was interesting that she wrote it—although you had some thoughts about that. 

Virginia

Yes, she did not write it. This is an “as told to.” As someone who’s written many an “as told to,” my guess is at the photoshoot, while she was sitting in the hair and makeup chair, an editorial assistant or other staffer from Harper’s Bazaar sat next to her and asked questions. And they recorded everything and then went back and put this together. 

It is extremely rare that an actress would write this piece completely on her own without any input. In terms of both her own schedule—she talks in the article about how she’s filming 17 shows at once. When would she have time to write an article and go through the editing process with the editors? And the magazine is going to want certain things, so they would want a lot of control over what they could get out of her. These are always “as told to.” And in this case, not even credited to the ghostwriter. So good job, ghostwriter, wherever you are. But it is interesting that they decided to do it as a first person.

Corinne

Yeah. I think the part that really sticks out is the list where she says,

“Luckily, I have a fool-proof way to avoid scrutiny as a woman in the industry! All you have to do is follow these simple rules:”

And then it’s sort of jokey and sarcastic. Like, “be permanently 22 years old, be a sample size, have a sparkling personality.”

Virginia

And I love that she says,

So, when I say sample size, know that the camera adds 10 lbs, so one size below that is the actual ideal. If, for any reason, you can’t/won’t follow this rule, I suggest accepting that, in every interview you do, you will have to talk about your figure instead of your work. I get asked all the time about my body – I wrote an article in 2018 for The Guardian in which the thesis was: ‘Please focus on my work and not my body.’ I still feel exactly the same.

Here it is six years later and she’s still having to address this.

Corinne

It’s so interesting because she has been so vocal about, like, “Focus on the work, not my body!" Stop asking me these questions.” And yet, whether or not she’s actually writing an article, she’s focusing on her body, too.  

Virginia

The magazine wants to seem like they have all this access to Nicola and that they’re giving her a microphone and a place to say what she wants to say. This is supposed to be her controlling the narrative, but she still has to address this piece of things rather than just talking about the challenges of developing the Penelope character or even how she felt about costume choices and how they influenced her performance. The piece doesn’t really focus on that at all. 

I also really liked the part where she talks about ending up on American Vogue’s Best Dressed list.

Corinne

Yes. She ended up on this Vogue’s Best Dressed Women in the World list. Then she describes what she’s wearing and how unfashionable she actually is in her day-to-day life. So she says,

Today, for example, I am wearing a jumper that has the word ‘happy’ on it, beside a picture of a rainbow – this is a terrible jumper. I was given it for free years ago and for some reason, even though I know it’s terrible, I wear it all the time. Completing this ensemble is a pair of Guinness socks (also free) and some ancient leggings that I realised midway through the day were on backwards. I did consider turning them round but, ultimately, I was fine with it.

I mean, relatable. Very relatable.

Virginia

I was like, Nicola, do you want to do the #UnflatteringToast Style Challenge with us?So many great rules are broken here. Such a great comfy outfit. I love it. 

And I do give the editors’ credit that they included that anecdote, because it really shows us the disconnect between how actresses are forced to perform their bodies for the world and how they actually conceive of their bodies and how that has absolutely nothing to do with the way they have to give their bodies to us. 

Corinne

Right? And what is fashionable? Is someone who’s fashionable someone who dresses fashionably alone at home? Or is someone who dresses fashionably on the red carpet? 

Virginia

That’s a fair point. 

Corinne

She’s describing what she has to wear for work versus what she wears in her personal day-to-day life.

Virginia

There’s something to letting fashion be this thing you perform. Maybe it’s not a personal passion of hers, so she doesn’t need to do it at home. There was an interesting thing you pulled up about people responding to what she wears on the red carpet. Do you want to talk about that? 

Corinne

There was a tweet where said,

The fat girl from Bridgerton is wearing a black cardigan at the Golden Globes, because no matter how hot and stylish you are, if you’re a fat girl, there will always be a black cardigan you think about wearing then decide against but ultimately wear because you feel like you have to.

And Nicola responded, “I thought the cardigan looked ace Molly Goddard used them on her runway with the dresses. That’s where the idea came from. Also, I have a name.” 

Virginia

I mean, kind of fair on both counts. Amanda’s not wrong. The cardigan is a ubiquitous fat girl fashion thing. This just came up in the Style Challenge last week! A fat person said to me, “ou can never go wrong if you add a cardigan or a top layer. If you feel like you’re breaking a rule, just add a cardigan.” And I was like, “But what if it’s hot? What if I don’t want to?” So it is one of those rules and I can understand why Amanda interpreted it that way. But it’s also a fair that Nicola was like, No, I just liked it and what if you didn’t dissect my body? 

Corinne

What if you didn’t refer to me as “the fat girl?”

Virginia

She also tweeted around the same time, “I mean this in the nicest way possible. I’m not a body positive activist, I’m an actor. I would lose or gain weight if an important role requirement. My body is the tool I use to tell stories, not what I define myself by.” And that’s a fair thing to say about your body, right?

Corinne

It’s true, she’s not a body positive activist. Her body is part of her toolkit as an actor.

Virginia

I think it’s problematic that anytime a fat person becomes famous, they are expected to have a very specific perspective on their body. They either need to be textbook pursuing intentional weight loss—I’m thinking of Chrissy Metz from This Is Us where she had to sign the contract saying the character would pursue a weight loss plot. It’s either that we are allowing you to be visible because you are on a path to make yourself smaller, or we are allowing you to be visible because you will always, in every conversation, come back to “I’m fat. I’m happy to be fat. I love being fat. This is my whole identity.”

And both are incredibly reductive and not allowing for the whole range of human experiences about having a body.

Corinne

It sucks.

Virginia

It really does. It really does.

Corinne

This Harper’s Bazaar article first came on my radar because the photos were getting shared around social media.

I saw Sean Taylor posting about how amazing Nicola looks—and she does look amazing. But in the reel that Sean Taylor posted, she says, “In your mind, think of how old you think this person is.” And then she tells us Nicola is 37. And like, she does look young. But Sean Taylor is like, “I’m going to be bringing these photos to my injectionist and my hairstylist,” or whatever.

I just can’t imagine how hard it must be to have that much scrutiny even when it’s praise about how young you look.

Virginia

Horrific. This reel is really interesting because it’s basically the Venn diagram of anti-fatness and ageism. Sean Taylor is excited about how glorious Nicola looks because she looks young. So you’re only allowed to be fat and visible and fashionable if you are young, which is not great news for a lot of fat people.

Corinne

Like someone who’s actually 38.

Virginia

I haven’t been 37 for a minute now, and I’m still here. We are just going to keep existing in our bodies for many years more.

Also, these photos! I mean, this is for the same piece where she talks about walking around in the Guinness socks and the rainbow sweatshirt. These photos they have very little bearing on what she looks like in real life. This is a photo shoot for Harper’s Bazaar Magazine, there is an army of people standing by at these photoshoots. There is so much meticulous work going into every one of these images, both at the photoshoot itself in terms of hair and makeup and fashion and lighting. And then afterwards, in all of the incredibly comprehensive retouching these photos had.

So, basically what Sean is celebrating is that a fat girl got that “star treatment.” But all that treatment did was take a fat person and try to make them look as much as possible like a thin Hollywood celebrity.

Corinne

It also makes me think of all those times when someone who’s fat or borderline fat has had this treatment and then the unretouched originals get released. I remember that being a huge thing when Lena Dunham was in Vogue.

Virginia

Yes, and everyone feels deceived. But it’s all a deception. I mean, even not-fat actresses like Tina Fey—who, problematic on weight, always. But she talks in her memoir about being shot for shoots like this and the dress is not zipped up at the back. And, as a size eight, they didn’t have her size.

So I’m looking at the photos now and I want to be clear, I’m going to look at these photos as a former magazine editor to talk about the work I think they did on the photos. I am not critiquing Nicola’s body as I talk about this—her body belongs to her. But I think it’s useful for all of us to understand what went into them. 

So in the Bazaar piece, in both the opening image where she’s in the gold dress and if you scroll down to the one of her in the pink dress, you can tell by the shading at the sides of her body that they did a lot of photoshopping to make her waist look much more defined. I mean, I don’t know what her waist looks like in real life, but I can tell by the shading on the side of that pink dress and by the way her hands sit on the hips of the dress. There was more of her that came out of that photo and they did that deliberately. My guess is they did it on her arms, as well. If you look at her left arm there compared to her right arm you can kind of see the top of the left arm. 

Corinne

Oh yeah, it looks very strange actually. 

Virginia

It’s not super subtle once you start looking for it.

In the gold dress, too, you can see the slimming on the sides. And certainly her skin is heavily filtered. Nobody’s skin is like that. She has no pores. Nobody’s skin in real life is made of that magazine texture skin. 

Corinne

It’s like, yes, she’s fat. Maybe? Maybe she’s fat? She’s small fat? She’s midsize? But if she’s fat, she’s also unbelievably beautiful, has really gorgeous skin, looks much younger than she is. And that’s why she’s here.

Virginia

There’s a ton of pretty privilege. There’s hourglass privilege. And then there’s a whole machine, taking whatever she has in real life and amplifying that and downplaying anything else. 

I want to again be super clear, we are not criticizing Nicola! She’s promoting the show. And Bridgerton is a fantasy, right? Bridgerton is a show that’s a total fantasy, where there are these elaborate costumes, elaborate hair and makeup. It makes sense to do a Harper’s Bazaar shoot that’s very high fashion. She’s being shot in a castle or whatever. There’s fancy art behind her. I completely get why they did this. I don’t even think it’s necessarily harmful. What I think is harmful is that people intellectually think they understand Photoshop, but they don’t understand the impact it has on our brains. 

Like, the fact that Sean Taylor, who’s been in the industry and understands these things, is like, “Great, I want to look like this.” She’s not recognizing how much work went into making Nicola look like this in these images. So, I think that is harmful.

But on the other hand, this is a fantasy of a show. She’s playing a character. She’s playing Penelope in these photos, basically. This isn’t Nicola.

Where do you land on that question?

Corinne

I think my first reaction is no. It’s fun. It’s cool. It’s fashion. It’s fun to look at photos that aren’t real. But I do think you’re looking at photos and your brain is processing it as “this is how a person looks,” but it’s not how a person looks. 

Virginia

Yeah, every pose she’s standing with her hands on her hips—and not even on her actual hips, but on the front of her. She’s covering her stomach, basically. It emphasizes the hourglass shape. I honestly feel bad for her. Posing for photos is a nightmare. And I don’t think being a good actress makes you necessarily good at posing for photos. It’s a very different skill and to have every photographer be like, “hands in front now.”

Corinne

But the photos are cool. 

Virginia

I mean, she looks amazing. It just also feels like a really interesting choice and yet not a surprising choice for Harper’s Bazaar to say, we’re going to write this essay by her talking about how she doesn’t like all this focus on her body and she’s actually this unfashionable girl in backwards leggings who’s just like living her life. And then we’re going to juxtapose that with photos of her looking as high fashion and as marketably beautiful as possible.

There’s a disconnect.

Corinne

The beginning of the article is her saying how she wanted to be a gay icon like Bette Midler and how she was the oddball in the corner and the strange girl no one pays attention to. 

Virginia

So to be the romantic lead in the next season is a weird disconnect. These photos are an attempt to cast her as the ingenue. To be like, “look, she can do it!” And they’re successful. But what if we could have an ingenue who didn’t have to be checking every possible box on the pretty list? I guess Bridgerton is not the show you go to for authentic body representation. I mean, maybe I’m asking too much.

Corinne

It’s hard because I do think in some ways it’s better than other shows, there’s definitely more racial diversity. And there is one small fat person. Well wait is Penelope’s mom fat? I can’t remember.

Virginia

No. She’s curvy. It’s a MILF vibe. It’s not fat representation. And she’s always hyper corseted.

I read an interesting article about the costuming and they dress her character, basically like a 1950’s pinup, but in a longer dress. If you look at the way her hair is always done, it’s a very 1950’s silhouette. Even though it’s done on a full length gown, because of the time period the show is set in. Whereas Violet Bridgerton, the mom of the Bridgerton clan, they dress much more like a Jane Austen character. She is supposed to look Regency. With Penelope’s mom they’re going for a certain Elizabeth Taylor kind of vibe.

I’m very protective of Penelope as a character. I really want this to go well. I don’t feel like I’m that into Colin as a love interest.

Corinne

Wasn’t there something at the end of the last season where they danced and then he was into someone else?

Virginia

He was a shit at the end of the second season. He’s kind of bland and whatever. He’s not one of the men that I was like, ooh, him. Whereas Anthony, the older brother, he’s complicated. He’s stormy. And the Duke, obviously, no more needs to be said about the inherent hotness of the Duke. But Colin I do not feel is inherently hot. So I am curious how he can carry the season.

Penelope, hands down, can carry it. Should have been carrying the whole show the whole time. And I would be into an Eloise plot line.

Corinne

I’m going to just go out on a limb and say I don’t think that’s going to happen.

Virginia

I know. There are some queer characters in the show? But I mean, very background.

Corinne

 It would be a very 180 degree turn from the books. But who knows? 

Virginia

Yes, that’s true, but I would be really into it. Because remember when they go to that sex club in the first season? There are guys hooking up with guys. I don’t know if that’s in the books, or if that’s all Shonda.

Corinne

It would be interesting if one of the seasons ends up being queer.

Virginia

Here for it. Shonda, are you listening? Are you an Extra Butter? Do you listen and take plot notes from us? Please don’t have Penelope lose weight. We just don’t want to see that. 

Well, this was very fun. I’m excited to hear what people think in the comments. I hope we have a lot of Bridgerton fans in the community. And if you want to talk about what’s problematic about the show, we are here for that too. We’re not saying it’s a perfect show, by any means. I know there were a lot of feelings about Daphne in the first season. Totally open to those critiques. But yeah, Team Penelope.

Corinne

Okay, my Butter is another thing that started on TikTok, which is jacket potatoes. I have become completely obsessed with baked potatoes which are called jacket potatoes in England. There are these Tiktoks of people getting jacket potatoes at these jacket potato stands. You watch them slice open the potato and mash up the insides and put on an enormous amount of cheese and an enormous scoop of beans, and they just look so freakin good.

So I bought myself some potatoes and I’ve been making baked potatoes and it’s so delicious and so fun and you can put anything on them. Like so much butter and so much cheese. And they’re so filling and hearty. It’s becoming summer and I’m sure I’m not gonna want to do it for much longer but I am enjoying jacket potatoes. 

Virginia

What do you put on yours? Do you have a go-to? Or are you trying different things?

Corinne

I’ve been trying different things but my go to right now is that I put on butter, cheddar cheese, black beans, salt, salsa—I have this like green chile salsa—sour cream and more cheese. It’s really, really good.

Virginia

Almost like a burrito.

Corinne

It’s like a bean quesadilla on a potato. It’s so good, though. I was also playing around with some bacon. I could also see steak and eggs being good.

Virginia

Sour cream and bacon and chives is a classic jacket potato. 

Corinne

That’s more of an American topping, too. But they all are always doing like tuna mayo, which I’m like, I don’t know. 

Virginia

Butter and then tuna. In England, that’s extremely normal. It’s interesting because we’re coming off a moment where a lot of people have opinions about how my kids eat butter. And I will say, it is a part of their British heritage. You put butter on every piece of bread and every potato. Like you are making a turkey sandwich and you are planning to use mayonnaise, you start with butter on the bread. Butter goes on the bread no matter what. My cousins will put butter—regular butter—and then peanut butter on top. You just always butter your bread. That’s just done.

I remember as an American kid being like, ew the butter is going to mix with with the mayo. And I think it’s actually delicious. They’re geniuses. 

Corinne

Yeah. I feel like it actually has a purpose. It holds the mayo from seeping into the bread as much. 

Virginia

Well, and on the flip side, I feel like I often use mayo. Like if I’m making in the summer a tomato and cheese sandwich, I still want mayo in there even though I have the cheese. Even if I’m using a goat cheese or something spreadable.

Corinne

But mayo is different because it’s acidic! It’s like salad dressing. 

Virginia

I need it for a buffer seal on the bread before I put the goat cheese on.

Corinne

I like the mayo for the flavor. 

Virginia

I’d also do a mayo-based sandwich, but I’m saying even if mayo is not the star player I want it on the sandwich. But some people hate mayo. It’s a polarizing condiment. 

Corinne

This is true. So anyways, I recommend jacket potatoes and watching jacket potato Tiktoks.

Virginia

Well, since this is running in May, I felt like my Butter should be garden related. We’re recording this in late April and so in my gardening zone 6B, we can’t really start getting stuff in the ground till after May 15. You can do perennials but not annual type stuff. So I have these raised beds in my garden, which we initially conceived of during COVID as a vegetable garden, and then I remembered I didn’t like vegetable gardening. So now I do them every year as flowers and usually I don’t put a lot of thought into it. Around May 15, I go to a garden center and buy whatever annuals look fun and throw them all in and that’s delightful. But I had some extra time this year and I was like I can really plan out this cutting garden, like meticulously plan it out. I will do a screenshot of my multicolored spreadsheet. 

I spent hours this weekend just so happy down a rabbit hole planning it out. I’m doing the dahlia beds and the zinnia bed and the cosmos bed. And then I think we’re going to do some sunflower beds because my kids are always asking me to grow sunflowers. I’m planning the whole color palette so all the beds are going to go together. They’re not just going to be hodgepodge rainbow, which is delightful—don’t get me wrong. But I was like, I’m going to really do a thoughtful color palette and I’m in deep. I’m in deep.

But it does mean I have to grow a lot more from seed. Like, I want to grow this cosmo called apricot lemonade. At the nurseries you’re always only going to get the white and purple cosmos. So that’s the kind of color scheme of the whole cutting garden. I’m doing all blush pinks and peaches. Maybe one hot pink because I cannot not have a hot pink dahlia. But I’m going to do more peaches and pink tones.

So I have to order everything from seed and I haven’t ever done the cutting garden this much from seeds, so I’m a little nervous in case that doesn’t work. I have grown all of these flowers from seeds before but I’ve always intermixed it with some seedlings. So it’s going to be a little a little more complicated. But on the plus side, it was a lot cheaper. So stay tuned for the evolution of the cutting garden! I’m really excited but just planning it was such a good butter this weekend. 

Corinne

That’s great. 

Virginia

Well, this was very fun. If there are other shows with fat rep or diet culture themes that we should dissect, you guys tell us about them in the comments because this was a fun episode. 

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The Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith (follow me on Instagram) and Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus, an Instagram account where you can buy and sell plus size clothing.

The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe.

Our theme music is by Jeff Bailey and Chris Maxwell.

Tommy Harron is our audio engineer.

Thanks for listening and for supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism!

We’ve got a podcast episode for you today, even though it is not our normal Thursday podcast day, because I was so excited to be able to add this particular conversation to our May lineup. And it had to be in May because today we are talking about Your Fat Friend, the documentary about our beloved Aubrey Gordon, which I know so many of you have been dying to see.

Your Fat Friend is streaming online at Jolt.Film until June 17!

I know Aubrey needs no introduction to most of you. But she is the author of What We Don’t Talk About When We Talk About Fat and You Just Need To Lose Weight and 19 Other Myths About Fat People. She’s also co-host of Maintenance Phase and you can catch her Burnt Toast episodes here and here.

And today, I am so thrilled because I’m chatting with Jeanie Finlay, the director of Your Fat Friend, who followed Aubrey for six years to make this film.

Jeanie Finlay

is one of Britain’s most distinctive documentary makers, and has made films for HBO, IFC and the BBC. Whether she’s inviting audiences to share the extraordinary journey of a British transgender man pregnant with his child in her filmSeahorse, or onto the set of the world’s biggest television show for her Emmy-nominated filmGame of Thrones: The Last Watch, all of Jeanie’s documentaries are made with the same steel and heart, sharing an empathetic approach to bringing overlooked and untold stories to the screen.She is also just an absolute delight of a human.

RELATED CALL TO ACTION: The Campaign for Size Freedom is working to get laws against weight discrimination passed in New York and Massachusetts — and they need us to contact our reps TODAY.

For legislation pending in both places to move forward. Here’s a script and contact info. And here’s more info on NAAFA and the Campaign.

Contact your reps for fat rights!

PS. If you’re enjoying the podcast, make sure you’re following us (it’s free!) in your podcast player! We’re on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, and Pocket Casts! And while you’re there, please leave us a rating or review. (We like 5 stars!)

Virginia

Look, here’s Aubrey right up behind me on the wall. 

Jeanie

Oh my goodness!

Virginia

This was the postcard you all handed out at the Tribeca premiere and I just loved it so much, so I just like having it up there. It was a really moving experience to watch it in the theater with everyone at the premiere. I still get teary thinking about it and I’m so excited that more people are getting to see it this month.

Jeanie

Thanks so much, that really means a lot. Showing the film in cinemas has been really phenomenal. I think about the spaces where fat people come together and it’s usually Weight Watchers. It’s been amazing to take over cinemas.

And then there’s a collective experience when people see it online, too. If you’re on the other side of the Instagram or the social accounts when the reactions are coming in, it’s very overwhelming and moving for me as the filmmaker. 

Virginia

I can imagine.

Jeanie

I always knew that Aubrey was amazing. But when I think back to that world premiere that you were at, at Tribeca almost a year ago, I was very apprehensive. I made this film completely independently, because it was something I wanted to make. And obviously, you don’t spend six years making a film, if you don’t want it to reach an audience. But I wasn’t sure how it would be received at all.

This is my ninth feature film and I sort of thought, you know what, I’m making this and I don’t care what people think. I’ve got to make it, I need to make it. And then the fact that people have been connecting with the soft and tender bits that I felt when I was making it? It makes me feel very emotional even just thinking about it.

Virginia

I think a lot of people are seeing themselves in it, both in Aubrey, but also in her parents, in the comments other people make in the movie. I think you’re seeing yourself in a lot of different ways that can be challenging and uncomfortable but also profoundly moving. 

I think that the experience of that representation is so missing in any other films, TV shows. We don’t see fat life portrayed on screen like that, pretty much ever. 

I’ve been thinking about your film in contrast to projects like The Whale. Or even Baby Reindeer, which just came out here—and there’s a big conversation happening about the portrayal of fatness there.

But there are also so many documentaries that are “health” focused, from Supersize Me all the way through Forks Over Knives. And that whole genre feels really problematic to me because people so often view them as objective fact. I get emails all the time —from trolls but also from well-meaning people—saying, “If you would only watch this documentary, you would understand that everything you write is wrong.”

What do you wish people understood about how those kinds of films get made? 

Jeanie

It’s a big old subject. And partly, it has to do with the way that documentaries are perceived. So it’s worth giving a bit of context. In the last 20 years, documentaries have exploded. They didn’t used to be seen in cinemas. Netflix wasn’t a thing. There wasn’t a mass audience for documentary outside of PBS in the US. There are a lot of myths about documentary making. One of them is that this is “fly on the wall” filmmaking and you know, I’m not a fly. I’m take up too much space to be a fly.

Virginia

You’re wearing a beautiful rainbow caftan, you can’t be a fly.

Jeanie

What I’m trying to show you is a relationship. I’m showing you my lens. This is authored work. This is the view that I found as this filmmaker—at this point in my career, as a parent, as somebody who lives outside of London, who’s British making this film about an American person, someone who didn’t go to a private fee paying school, all of those intersectional things. As a white lady, as someone who is fat but who is also a small fat person, a problematic mid size queen—all of those things are things that I’m bringing to this. 

I want to be fair to the people that I make my films about, but the idea that documentary is fact is kind of silly. Supersize Me is as much about Morgan Spurlock and his bias and ideas about what makes a funny film. His perceptions of what eating McDonald’s is, about his perceptions of food poverty, or his access to food. All of those things play into him making that film at that time. And I don’t know how many people are prepared to examine the paradigm shift of the work that Aubrey has been doing, but also the work that fat activists have been doing for decades, the work that you’re doing. How much of that work is being brought into play when people are making these documentaries? Or are they just reinforcing the ideas that they already had? 

I know the power of an interview. And I also know the power of an edit. Documentary is an unregulated industry, so it’s almost like you have to make your own guidelines for proceeding. Now, as an independent maker, it means that there are choices I make in the finance that I raise for my films, but also in the ways that I make film.

I use non-binary consent in my filmmaking practice, which means that consent is never taken for granted. It’s something that we discuss at all stages of the process because the traditional way of making films is you deliver someone a contract that is the length of War and Peace and just ask them to sign their name to the end and then whatever. That means anything you say can be used in perpetuity in all media known now or in the future. And that just sort of doesn’t feel okay to me. Let’s just have a more sophisticated conversation about this or a more open conversation about what it means to tell your story on screen. It also means that there’s mental health supervision on my films. But these things are in my gift, because I wrote the budget and I’m a producer on the film. 

But these documentaries which have informed our ideas about “health” have been made under these old models of documentary filmmaking. Which are: You get the biggest characters to give you the broadest brushstroke facts. You never acknowledged that you’re leaning into the bias or the views that you may hold as a maker. Stuff gets fact-checked, but it’s only as good as the fact checker. In something like Supersize Me, is there a responsibility to actually think about the stories or the myths that have been perpetuated as part of that media?

Virginia

To be somewhat fair to Supersize Me, it was made at a very different time in the discourse. It is a much older film. But even the more recent ones, it does not feel like anyone in any production meeting said, should we think about how much anti-fat bias is informing this conversation? Should we name that or give it a passing reference as a concept? I mean, it doesn’t feel like it’s anywhere in the room. 

Jeanie

It’s worth questioning that power. We showed this one with Sheffield Documentary Festival last year, which is the big documentary film festival in the United Kingdom. And we won the audience award, which was astonishing and amazing. But I did have a lot of encounters the night after the premiere, which were with thin male documentary directors.

Virginia

I bet those were fun.

Jeanie

They were drunk and crying because they have to be absolved for the terrible things that they’ve all said or done. It was like, Oh babes, no. No, don’t come to me for this.

Virginia

I’m not going to do this for you.

Jeanie

We’ve had a lot of fat audiences flock to watch the film. And later on in the year, when the film broadcasts wider, it’s going to encounter a more general population. And I’m deeply fascinated to see how that works. 

I made a film in 2019 called Seahorse which was about a trans guy getting pregnant and having a baby. I followed him—Freddy McConnell—and I was there when the baby was conceived and I was there when the baby was born. But it’s really about the stuff of life, about what it means to live in a body that’s changing, and about his family relationships. I would say that that film is definitely a sibling to Your Fat Friend.

And the experience of that broadcasting at a primetime slot on BBC Two, nine o’clock was extraordinary. Because for a lot of people watching, it was the first time they’d heard the experience of a trans guy articulating his experience giving birth. For some people, it was the first time they’d knowingly heard a trans man explaining what gender dysphoria. The cosmic toothache of dysphoria—what does that mean? 

I’m very interested when you take these very personal, particular experiences of one person that can hold a mirror to a wider experience and then you put them in places where millions of people see them.

Virginia

I’m getting nervous just thinking about it, as someone who has had smaller tastes of taking my personal story into the mainstream here and there. It can be rough. I’m not telling you anything you don’t know. But the thing is, is no matter how much control you have over the project—which of course in your case, you had so much control. You’re the filmmaker. But you don’t have any control over what the audience does with the work. And that is always terrifying.

There’s a lot of good that comes out of it, and there’s a lot of darkness. I think it can even be hard to talk about the darkness. There’s this perception that this is the cost of doing business. This is what you have to expect if you’re going to tell challenging stories in public, which almost makes it sound like we asked for it or something.

Jeanie

I mean, I think it’s enormously challenging. I believe in the power of film to help us articulate ideas or thoughts that we may not have had the language to express before. It sounds very grand, like I’m applying that to my own work.

But like when I’m thinking about the experience of Seahorse, I was quite scared. When we showed the film at a festival in Russia, it was shut down because there was a bomb threat. It was enormously scary. And Freddy was fighting in the courts to be named as a parent on the birth ticket, instead of mother. And this had been done in private, it’s not included in my film because it would legally prejudice the case. But a journalist outed Freddy and he ended up on every cover of every single newspaper in the United Kingdom. 

Virginia

And the British press happen to be so kind and nuanced in their coverage.

Jeanie

Oh they’re so lovely. 

So we had a screening in London and we had this ridiculous situation where we had the paparazzi lining up outside the cinema and we had to escape out of the back door.

But on the other hand, what I would say is, that stuff flares very white hot, it’s like a firework. It happens very quickly. But on the flip side of that, the lasting, the lingering stuff from a film can last a long time.

I’ve been at lots of screenings of Your Fat Friend and I took it to Leeds Film Festival in Yorkshire in the north of England. And two parents stood up in the Q&A, two moms, and said, “My child is trans and I’m here today to say thank you for Seahorse because it helped me understand what my child was going through.” And that was just like oh, my goodness, this is why we do it. Or getting a phone call from my 94-year-old Gran who said she’d never heard of a man having a baby but now she understood it. 

Virginia

Oh, good job, Gran. 

Jeanie

Roger Ebert, the American critic used to say that documentary films had the capacity to be an empathy machine. And not to sound like Pollyanna, but I do believe in that. I want to make films where you fall in love with the people that you’ve spent time with on screen. 

I think the reason why I wanted to make a film with Aubrey—I went off on a mission. I wanted to make a film about fatness because I could see that the conversations were changing. So I set myself this ridiculous task. I’m going to make an essay film, I’m just going to try and survey the way that people are talking about fat now. And it was rubbish. It wasn’t interesting. It was just like a Wikipedia article set to music. Whatever I did with it, it wasn’t quite right. I kept sort of straying into body positivity. And it’s just like, this isn’t about ooh, I can’t wear a bikini. 

I’m interested in what other structural things that are in place affect the literal lens that we’re viewing other people in the world. How does that contribute to bias? And how do you make a film that swims in all that messy stuff? How does that show up with your mom? And your relationships? 

As soon as I read Aubrey’s piece, I knew I wanted to meet this person, the person who had written her first blog post. And then when I met her family and realized they’re in a really, really different position of where they are with their politics or just their view of the world. And that’s something that anyone can relate to. It’s something I relate to on a personal level. I was like, well, this is totally fascinating. This is where the film can live, this space.

That’s what I’m always looking for. What’s the where’s the space where the film can live? Because someone being interesting or dynamic on screen is not enough to tell a story. It’s just the beginning. Where are we going to go? 

And that was a year of trying stuff out, filming loads of things, meeting a lot of people. And then when I found Aubrey it was like, Oh. Here she is. 

Virginia

There she is. And then you spent six years with her! I would love to hear what is it like to work on a project for so long and to follow your subject for so long and so intensively?

Jeanie

I mean, this is something that I’ve done before. I love making films. This is the only thing I do. This is my living. And the way to make it work as a filmmaker is to work on more than one project at a time. So sometimes I set a project going and then I’ll go and do another thing. So I started on Your Fat Friend and wasn’t sure what direction it was going to take. And then I put it on hold, because partly because I was very intensively working on Seahorse. Freddy was pregnant, I had the birth to film and edit. And I edit for like six or seven months. So it’s very long and expensive process. 

And then I also was embedded on Game of Thrones. The reason why I was able to meet Aubrey in the first place was I was invited to Los Angeles to be interviewed by the showrunners for Game of Thrones. So I just flew over to Portland because it’s an hour flight. I was asked in the interview, why are you going to Portland. And I was like—the film at the time was called Luxury Bitches—I said I’m making this film called Luxury Bitches about fat bloggers.

Virginia

Thats a hilarious title.

Jeanie

The showrunners of Game of Thrones were like, “Go! You’ve got to make that Luxury Bitches flight.”

Virginia

I want a Luxury Bitches t-shirt. Do we have any? Did we get any merch? I would happily wear that. I don’t know if Aubrey would, but I would.

Jeanie

I think she probably would. In the UK, we both bonded very much over the luxury bitch selection of goods at Marks & Spencers.

Virginia

That is peak luxury bitch.

Jeanie

Sometimes films take a long time because it’s really hard to persuade the financiers to come on board. Sometimes they take a long time because they just need time elapsed. Things need to happen.

I used to run half marathons and I sometimes think that making longform documentary filmmaking is like running a half marathon. Sometimes you just have to put one foot in front of another. It’s mile ten, and it’s agony. 

Virginia

Aubrey had to live her life, you had to follow her for that long for all the things that happened in the film. There wouldn’t have been enough if you just filmed her for three months or something.

Jeanie

I like making observational docs in that I don’t know what the ending of the film is when I start

Virginia

As a writer, I find that terrifying.

Jeanie

It’s very exciting!

Virginia

The lack of control, oh my God. 

Jeanie

Oh, I love it. I like taking risks. It feels like this massive roll of the dice. Is anything going to happen? I just had to trust my gut instinct when I was like, I think we’ve got something. But initially the end of the film was going to be Aubrey revealing that she is your fat friend, the end. Then because of making the other films and then because of the pandemic, we just had this really stretched out duration of making the film, but that actually was like an enormous benefit, because she’d really traveled somewhere in that time and found her voice.

I think the film is about Aubrey becoming visible. Fat is something that is weirdly invisible, you know? Obviously, we’re all having more conversations now but when I first started making the film I just kept thinking how it’s like an invisible mask, but you actually take up more space. 

Virginia

People don’t want to look at it or talk about it or name it. They are always talking around it. 

Jeanie

I was at Weight Watchers for years and we were not allowed to say the word “fat” out loud. We had to say fluffy. 

Virginia

The absolute worst of all the euphemisms.

Jeanie

The worst! It just seemed like this ridiculous thing. Like, we’re all here every week because we believe that weight loss is possible. We’ve bought into the idea that our lives will be better—until I rebelled and left and was like, my life will be the same.

But I started thinking about Aubrey being this anonymous writer. And then she’s words on a page and a picture on the back of a book. And then she’s a voice on the internet and she has a pen name. And then she steps into her name and comes out fully and is seen in the film. The film is the last part of this journey into visibility. 

Virginia

I think that is one of the many things that made me cry, as a colleague and friend of Aubrey’s, and who has followed her journey over these years—I just feel so proud. So proud to see what she’s done and to see her own it and be herself in this way. I know that comes with a cost that I don’t think she should be asked to pay or any of us should be asked to pay. But it also is such a gift to the rest of us that she’s putting it all into the world now. 

Jeanie

I remember listening to the very first episode of Maintenance Phase. It was during the pandemic, so I was working with Lindsay Trapnell, who’s a Portland based cinematographer, and Michael Palmieri and Donal Mosher and they would just go and film for me when something was happening.

So I knew it was happening, and then I remember sitting in my kitchen listening to the finished episode. I just started texting Aubrey and just going, “I feel so proud!!” I felt so invested. I think Aubrey’s ability to embody a meet you where you’re at politics—she imparts information very elegantly. It’s a light touch. There’s enormous research, but then it feels fun, she’s good company. You want to hear it and you want to listen to what she’s telling you. It doesn’t ever feel like, oh, I don’t have enough knowledge to participate in this or to even listen. It just feels like yeah, I’m going to learn stuff and it’s going to infuriate me and I’m going to laugh my ass off.

Virginia

She’s also incredibly good at making clear that she’s not trying to be the leader of any kind of movement. She’s really good at lifting up other folks and she’s very clear that she’s the entry point. She’s bringing people in and doing it with such grace and kindness and joy. And then like, here’s all the rest of the work that we’re going to get to. 

Jeanie

I would say that your work feels very much like that as well. It’s been really great when we’ve been on the road and people ask questions like, what do I say to my kids? Or how do I deal with this? I’m worried about this. And I’m like, I don’t know. I haven’t got the answers. But there are a lot of amazing books out there and one of the books you can read is Fat Talk by Virginia Sole Smith!

Virginia

I appreciate you. 

Jeanie

One of the things that we did when we were on the road was that we partnered with independent bookstores, usually queer bookstores, and we had little mini bookshops in the cinemas so people could see the breadth of fat activism and rights.

Virginia

Because there are so many great voices. 

Jeanie

Exactly. It’s like, guys, you need to read any and all of this stuff. So we’ve put those on the website. No one is trying to reinvent the wheel wheel here. But I think that there’s definitely a power in showing one person’s experience of navigating all this stuff.

Virginia

What were some parts of the film that people are responding to, that maybe you didn’t expect? 

Jeanie

I knew that people would be into Aubrey’s collection of diet books because they are bangers. And the music, I managed to clear—which was an enormous challenge to get—Try The Worryin’ Way this sort of horrific, 60’s girl group song about the benefits of being with a terrible man for weight loss, which is horrendous. But I also hoped that people would connect with Rusty and Pam, Aubrey’s parents. Because for me, they really go on a journey in terms of hearing what Aubrey’s got to say but also thinking about their actions, but also not always getting it right. 

There’s a scene with a cake in the film where we we film Rusty, a man who loves his daughter very, very much, and is a great and complicated dude. I think that that scene feels so deeply uncomfortable and powerful to me. Those sort of scenes are the scenes that I love filming. If I feel deeply uncomfortable while I’m doing it, I know that there’s something important to say there. 

The reason why it feels good to me is that Rusty keeps on insisting that the cake is sugar-free and gluten-free. Aubrey didn’t ask for a sugar-free and gluten-free cake. He’s doing it with the best intentions. He says it ten times. And it’s sort of that mismatch of intentions. Rusty has made a cake with all of the love that a dad that really loves his daughter could do. And he misses the target so wide. She’s obviously horrified that he’s going on about this and that we’re filming. But what I love about that scene is that they both love each other. And it’s still terrible.

Virginia

It is both of those things at once. It’s a really hard scene to watch. You really you feel it in your bones, like, yep, I’ve been there.

Jeanie

I think those small moments from the people that loom large in our lives can have much more impact than some troll on the internet saying something terrible. My weight has been all over the all over the place and I remember going to a funeral of a dear family member. At that point, I had not seen some of my family for a couple of years. I remember one of my relatives almost knocking themselves out, climbing over a pew to tell me that I looked extraordinary 

Virginia

At a funeral?

Jeanie

At a funeral! I was like, please! It was so horrendous in every way. That person did that thinking that they were giving me the biggest compliment.

Virginia

That you would be so delighted. 

Jeanie

It is seared on my memory. 

Virginia

Well, the film is just spectacular. I am so excited for everyone to see it. 

Virginia

Do you have anything else you’re loving lately, that you want to tell us about for your Butter? 

Jeanie

My daughter is now 20, but I love hanging out with her. I feel like it’s an enormous achievement to have a daughter that I not just love, but I look forward to spending time with her. The Butter for my toast is that Studio Ghibli have started making stage shows of their films.

Virginia

Oh my goodness! 

Jeanie

They are absolutely magical and extraordinary. So last year, we went to see My Neighbor Totoro on stage. It was it was one of the most extraordinary magical things. I cried all the way through. And next month, we’re going to see Spirited Away on stage and I cannot wait.

Virginia

I love that. Totoro was a movie we watched a lot when my older daughter was in hospital for a long time. It was such a comfort watch for us. That’s a really good Butter. 

I’m gonna just give a quick shout out to a favorite fat British artist of mine, Taynee Tinsley. Do you know her work? She’s wonderful. Every time she releases a new round of prints, I end up buying one because I love them.

Jeanie

Oh, what’s her work like?

Virginia

It’s just really beautiful. Mostly femme bodies, nudes, and a lot about mothers and children. I just got a new print of hers that’s just a really beautiful fat nude. What I really appreciate about this one is I think a lot of times in fat representation in general, we see the hourglass fat. And this is a woman with a belly. As you know, most fat people have bellies. It is a common trait of ours. I really love Taynee’s work. It’s just exquisite.

Jeanie

Oh, amazing. I can’t wait to see.

Virginia

I think aesthetically, it’s right up your alley.

Jeanie, this was spectacular. Thank you so much. The movie is streaming right now on Jolt. Tell us everything we need to know so everyone can go watch it immediately.

Jeanie

Thank you so much for having me on. I’m a longtime listener, first time caller, so I’m very happy to be here.

So the film is on Jolt, which is a new platform that that shows the films that really matter. The thing that’s important is it’s for independent films and the people that made the film actually get the income. 

Virginia

Oh, that’s a nice change. 

Jeanie

It’s a really amazing and unusual change. So, it’s worth amplifying, but it’s just jolt.film. And the film is available for the whole of May, through June 17.

The thing that’s been really lovely when we’ve shown it before is that people send us watch party photos. We really like to see where people are watching and who they’re watching it with because it’s amazing to see how far in the world it’s traveled to and what folks are watching. So that’s just like a little personal thing that really makes me happy, when I see people watching the film.

Virginia

So should people send that to you on Instagram? 

Jeanie

We’re just on socials all the time, this is the modern world. So we’re @yrfatfriendfilm and I’m just @JeanieFinlay. But yeah, just tag us in and we’ll repost it on the film Instagram. We love to see photos. It’s brilliant.

Virginia

Thank you so much for doing this. This was absolutely delightful.

Jeanie

Thank you so much.

---

The Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith (follow me on Instagram) and Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus, an Instagram account where you can buy and sell plus size clothing.

The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe.

Our theme music is by Jeff Bailey and Chris Maxwell.

Tommy Harron is our audio engineer.

Thanks for listening and for supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism!

We are Virginia Sole-Smith, Corinne Fay and Dacy Gillespie, and it’s time to wrap up the #UnflatteringToast Style Challenge!

ICYMI: Dacy is an anti-diet, weight-inclusive personal stylist, who also writes

unflattering

. She helps clients examine the fashion rules they’ve been told to follow and unpack the origins of those messages, to let them go. She also helps folks find their style, edit their wardrobes, and shop mindfully. You can catch our first conversation about the Style Challenge here.

PS. If you’re enjoying the podcast, make sure you’re following us (it’s free!) in your podcast player! We’re on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, and Pocket Casts! And while you’re there, please leave us a rating or review. (We like 5 stars!)

Rule breaking ftw!

This transcript contains affiliate links for items we bought with our own money. We never run ads or take sponsors, but shopping our links is a great way to support Burnt Toast!

Week 1: Break The Rules

Corinne

So we’ve spent a lot of time over the past few weeks texting in a group chat about our outfits and our general ups and downs. And now you can join us.

Virginia

It’s like a text thread made live with voices. 

Dacy

Let’s jump in and start with week one. This is where we were all thinking of style rules that we could break. I have to say, some of y’all had some weird ones. Mostly Virginia. Just kidding. No, I definitely had weird ones, too. 

Virginia

I’m still not thoroughly over the Birkenstocks and skinny jeans rule. I mean, I broke it, but I think it’s still a rule for me. I was affirmed by—I’m not going to say an overwhelming number of people agreeing with that. But I think I heard from three people who were like, “I also have that rule.” It’s not just me.

Dacy

To clarify, the rule is Birkenstocks are too clunky of a sandal to put with a skinny pant?

Virginia

If the skinny jean covers your ankle. 

Dacy

So if it’s cropped, it’s okay. I didn’t know this aspect. 

Corinne

It’s very specific. 

Virginia

Well, that was the big rule I broke. 

Corinne

The place that I’m wanting to start is how actually hard it was to get dressed the first day. I had a pile of discarded clothes that I still haven’t fully put away. Because I wasn’t just picking up the clothes off the chair that I wore yesterday, I was trying to find stuff that felt like it was stretching my capacity.

I think I’m more comfortable wearing a fancier shirt with basic pants. So it felt like it ended up being some fancier pants with more comfortable shirts. Also I wanted to try wearing a dress and I kind of failed and also was like, “If I were going to wear a dress, it wouldn’t be one of these ones that I have in my closet, which I do not like.”

Dacy

Good to know. 

Virginia

That’s good intel to gather. Because you’ve been buying dresses that you actually don’t want to wear at all. 

Corinne

Well, a lot of them are from pre-pandemic life that I just haven’t gotten rid of. I was like, maybe I can like, style these? And then I was like, no. I can’t and I don’t want to.

Virginia

You also did the mesh shirt that week. 

Dacy

Which everyone loved including us.

Corinne

I now have that outfit in my back pocket if I ever have somewhere fancy to go. 

Virginia

Or even just the grocery store, whatever. That felt very versatile to me. And that was a very different look than what I typically think of as a Corinne Outfit. 

Dacy

I agree this all took a ton of energy. Not going to lie, halfway through that week I was like, I want to quit. I’m done. I was starting to get resentful of this thing that I had part in creating. Same as you, Corinne, when I was trying to push myself or stretch myself—I like how you said stretch yourself—it just took a ton of thought. It took trying on multiple things and trying different combinations. And you know, I hadn’t really done that in succession very often recently to remember what that effort was like. I mean, maybe back when I was working in office job, but that was pre-kids, pre-pandemic, all of the things. So yeah, it was draining. 

Virginia

And I want to say too, the fact that we were also trying to share and document our process was an added layer of labor because sometimes I would put an outfit on and then I would be like, “I don’t think this will make an interesting reel.” I was aware that was not part of the challenge, but it was hard to turn off that part of my brain. To be like, “This feels rule breaking but I’m not getting a good photo of it, so forget it.” And I hope other people doing the challenge or if you’re going to do the challenge in the future, maybe you don’t share it on the Internet. That’s fine. 

Dacy

Yeah, that was hard.

Corinne

I found that part of it to be very gratifying! I was really enjoying the sharing and chatting on Instagram and TikTok about it. I think also just because we all in some capacity work from home, so it was nice to actually have people noticing what I was wearing.

Virginia

Well, yeah, that’s the thing. If I just wear it in my house, it’s a tree falling in the forest. Did this outfit happen? It’s like suddenly we had clothing colleagues which was nice. 

Corinne

Part of what also was so interesting about this week was the creativity and effort that I was putting towards trying to find outfits—like, I didn’t buy anything the first week. I was just not feeling the temptation to browse. I was feeling like whoa, there’s so much stuff in my closet that I’m not wearing. How can I like be creative with that? And then week two and three, that totally disappeared for me.

Virginia

You and I both pushed ourselves, like you maybe with the mesh top, and me with the bare legs dress. We both pushed ourselves to wear things that were a little more visible than our day to day look. And it was nerve wracking to decide to wear it but then actually when I was out in the world wearing it, I was like, I like wearing a more visible outfit. That was kind of cool to realize. 

I do feel like I had a real personal growth moment about my bare legs hang up and I’m really I’m proud of that. I mean, obviously, it was cold because it was 50 degrees. I did identify the need for a coat, which I’m still shopping for, that works with a dress with bare legs. But it was really liberating. I really realized how much that rule was a voice in my own head and that actually nobody cares if you are seasonally appropriate in your aesthetic. It still doesn’t sound true when I say it out loud! But nobody was like “I’m wearing a sweater and you’re wearing a dress with bare legs, how inappropriate.”

Dacy

Because you were wearing boots, right? So you were wearing a full coverage shoe. It would have been different if you’ve been wearing a dress with bare legs and an open toe shoe and everyone else was wearing a jacket and freezing. Then you’d feel like you were on vacation in the tropics and everyone else is in New York state.

Virginia

The backstory on why I’m so hung up on bare legs is because earlier in my career, I had a brief stint as a celebrity ghostwriter. I cannot say who the celebrities were, but I can tell you that during one of these projects, I was out in LA with one celebrity who was wearing head to toe black, even though it was May in Los Angeles and like, 78 degrees. I was wearing a really cute layered cream and tan sort of sheath dress with brown Frye boots and bare legs.

Our picture was taken by the paparazzi because that happens to this person all the time. This was a very new experience to me, and it will never happen again. And when the paparazzi ran the photo of us, I was described as her gal pal, which many friends will never let me forget. But more crucially—next to this very tiny, famous, beautiful woman wearing all black, my legs appeared to be Twilight vampire sparkling white. It was just one of those moments. I was like, Ohhhh, that’s why she wears all black. That’s a smart thing that celebrities do because you have a lot more protection in how you come off in a photo. They’re very careful about when they show their skin because of the scrutiny they’re under, which is a terrible way to live and a whole comment on our society. But meanwhile, my calves were illuminated.

Corinne

I mean, I once had someone say “I like your white tights,” when I was wearing bare legs. 

Virginia

We’re a pasty people. 

Dacy

Maybe it’s changing with younger generations, but growing up in the 80s and 90s and the whole requirement of being tan anytime your skin showed. I mean, people were risking their lives for that. So that is a tough one to let go of, if you’ve lived through that. 

Virginia

But I did! I broke through! And I felt like oh, this was not a big deal.

Dacy

Virginia, just as you’re telling that story, it’s interesting to me that actually in the situation, you were the one that was dressed more appropriately for the season and the weather. 

Virginia

Not according to like LA celebrity standards.

Corinne

Because the LA celebrity standard is to ignore the weather.

Virginia

Correct. It’s hard to be with a famous person, period. And it’s a stressful event to dress to go and be around famous people, and you’re going to just be this fly on the wall in their life. I was stressed about it and thought I’d really figured out a cute outfit. Then when we met up I was like, “This doesn’t feel like the thing I should have worn.” So I was sort of already self conscious about it and then I see the photos and I am a neon sign of calves.

Dacy

I hear this a lot. It can be really traumatizing when you show up wherever it is wearing what you feel like is the wrong thing. 

Virginia

Anyway, I feel like I did a lot of healing and growth. I agree with Corinne, it felt like a very creative week. When I found an outfit I really liked, I felt energized by it. I didn’t feel like I needed to shop. It was hard, but those were some of the real positives for me.

Dacy

That’s so funny that you felt energized by it because I felt not energized. I felt very self conscious. It felt like it took more energy just to exist in the outfits that I was wearing.

Virginia

Is this because you were wearing red? Dacy hates color. 

Dacy

I’ve been trying to figure out exactly why. I am very high on the spectrum of introvert and so I don’t love a lot of attention. I do not want to be that person walking into a room creating some sort of attention getting spectacle or something. It just feels very uncomfortable emotionally. Then I discovered through this process that I have some sort of inner rebel—which is not my personality! My personality is very people pleasing. But I have some sort of inner rebel around the issue of style and particularly color. I said in one of my posts, I feel like a little girl stomping her foot saying, “I’m not going to wear red just because you want me to.” When I was growing up, I have brown hair, brown eyes. Everyone was always like, you should wear red. And I tried it a few times. And it didn’t feel great. So this is my first time trying red after probably 25 years to be honest. I didn’t die.

I wore a red shirt twice and I wore a chartreuse green shirt once as well. Some of it I didn’t mind and it definitely was a bit of immersion therapy, where you start to get a little bit more comfortable. So I think I could now wear a red shirt and feel better.

Virginia

But you might not because it’s just not your favorite?

Dacy

Well, I would say some of the outfits with the red I did really end up liking. I would love them if I saw them on someone else. The only reason why I did actually stretch myself to wear those colors is because I really am enjoying the look of that on other people and in images. And so, I did feel a desire to try it. Otherwise, I probably wouldn’t have done it at all. 

Corinne

All right, let’s get into week two. Week two is where we honored our comfort and tried to find a safe outfit. Virginia, and I immediately got bored and started shopping.

Virginia

And Dacy was so happy.

Dacy

I was so happy. Oh my God. It was like sliding into a warm bath. 

Virginia

Again, I do think some of this was the pressure to make content around the outfits and then being like, “My safe comfy clothes just don’t feel that interesting to share with the world.”

Dacy

That makes sense. 

Virginia

That was part of it. But Dacy and I are polar opposites on this color conversation. If I wear comfy baggy neutrals, I feel like I have erased my personality. I feel so blah and bored by what I’m wearing. That was clarifying to realize because I thought Week One was going to be the really hard week and that Week Two would be so easy. It was fascinating that it was the opposite for me.

Dacy

And of course, it was the reverse for me, as well. Week One was so hard and then Week Two, I could literally go to my closet, grab two things, put them on and just move on with my day. I never had to change an outfit. I never had to figure out, “Does this work together?”

It’s interesting what you just said, Virginia, about feeling like you erased your personality. Think about the Vogue editors, right? The people who are creating these fantastical spreads and amazingly creative photoshoots and photography. They’re usually wearing all black.

Virginia

Just like the Hollywood celebrities who don’t want to be photographed that day. 

Dacy

Exactly. Or fashion designers. I mean, think of Michael Kors. Think of, we don’t want to bring his memory up, but Karl Lagerfeld. Any of these people, they had uniforms. Not to align myself in any way on their level, but I did start to feel this week like maybe  that is what I’m doing. This is easy for me to put on and then do my work, which is actually helping other people with this and being creative in that way. 

Corinne

I imagine that if I had your job, Dacy, I would feel a lot of pressure to look a certain type of way to try and sell people on myself.

Dacy

I’m glad you mentioned that, actually, because, I’ve been running this business for 11 years now. In the first six or seven years, I did feel that way. I felt like I had to show up perfectly every time. And it was exhausting. It was basically like Week One every week. So now I am just so so grateful. I mean, I have a ton of privilege in many, many ways. But I also have the privilege of working with the type of people who I know are not going to judge me because I’m not wearing the latest trends, or I don’t have perfect makeup or any makeup. I am constantly grateful for that.

Virginia

That’s really freeing. I like that. Corinne, what were your Week Two feelings?

Corinne

I was getting caught up on the duality of comfort versus liking how something looks. Like, Is this comfortable? And do I like how it looks? I don’t know, I couldn’t find the sweet spot there. I think it was on Wednesday of that week that we were texting and Dacy suggested, why don’t you try putting 50 percent as much effort as you put in last week. And then I was like, okay, I can see where this could work. I was kind of thinking of it as I’m just going to be wearing my most schlumpy outfits, but that’s not very fun. 

Dacy

I definitely thought of it differently. Comfort for me encapsulates not just that physical comfort but do I like it? I do feel like myself. 

Virginia

We talked in the first episode about how there is comfort in terms of physical comfort, which might be your sweat pants. But I think both Corinne and I would struggle to wear sweat pants out into the world. There’s the whole visible fat person thing. And so safe and comfortable outfits for those situations might not always be physically comfortable. So I think that tension was something I was thinking through a lot. Like, am I trying to dress for social comfort? Or purely physical comfort? Or can I do both?

As I’m saying that I’m realizing what I was missing from that is what you just said Dacy, which is: Comfort also means I like how it looks. Not, it will meet with the arbitrary approval of whatever bias I’m expecting to encounter.

Dacy

This idea of liking what you’re wearing does provide a real sense of security when you do go out in the world. It’s not always going to help everything. But for me—and this is one of my working philosophies with people—if you at least have a base comfort and confidence in that you like your outfit, you are a little bit more able to go out into the world and say, well, I’m comfortable. If other people don’t like what I’m wearing, I’m less concerned. Whereas, when you are maybe trying something new or you’re wearing something that you’re not sure if you like, you already have that level of anxiety, and then going out and being presented with other people and their potential judgments becomes like really stressful.

Corinne

Virginia and Dacy, did you feel like you found a safe outfit this week?

Virginia

The the outfit that I liked best of the week was what I wore to my kids talent show on the Friday. It was that blue striped Draper James shirt dress over skinny jeans and Birkenstocks. 

This was also a week where I was very visible on the internet and that was complicated. Then I was like, Oh, I have to go to the school function where I’m going to feel visible in this other way. I felt so good about this outfit because it felt polished, which somehow felt important to me. Like, I couldn’t go to the school event in sweatpants. Not that you can’t, you absolutely can. But that particular week, I felt like I needed a little bit of armor on. But it was also very physically comfortable. Those are my Universal Standard jegging skinny jeans that have an elastic waist. They’re not binding or falling down. They feel good. And I just felt like oh, I threaded a needle here—and I really liked how it looked! I had the pop of color. I had all the things that make me like an outfit. I felt really proud of coming up with that at the end of that particular week. 

Dacy

We were proud of you, too. That was the outfit that I was thinking of when I was kind of describing that you feel good and you can go out in the world. 

Virginia

I was able to navigate something that turned out to be utterly fine, by the way. But I was in my head before I went and I was able to show up in a way that I felt confident and that was satisfying.

Dacy

My safe outfit turned out to be leggings and either a chambray or blue striped button down over. That is an outfit that I can nap in. I honestly have worn the leggings to sleep in the previous night, but then by throwing on this chambray or this button down, I felt cool. I could go about my daily activities, but it required no effort.

Corinne

I struggled to find something that felt like a safe outfit uniform, but I feel like that’s because mine is just like, a t-shirt and jeans or something.

Dacy

I feel like you do have kind of a uniform of the button down short sleeve button down or short sleeve polo with the shorts?

Virginia

That’s peak Corinne Outfit. 

Dacy

Which hits all of our checkboxes of cool, and comfy, and also your style. 

Links to everything we wore in week 2:

Is Comfy Boring?

Virginia Sole-Smith and Corinne Fay

·

April 26, 2024

Read full story

unflattering

I guess easy outweighs boring for me

As you may know, I’ve collaborated with Virginia Sole-SmithandCorinne Fay to create a style challenge. It’s only a challenge in the loosest sense of the word, because what we’re trying to do is create an awareness of the style rules that live rent free in our heads, figure out our safe outfits, and then bring it all together…

Read more

a year ago · 30 likes · 20 comments · Dacy Gillespie

Virginia

Alright, so now we’re in Week Three. We are recording this on Wednesday. So we’re not quite through the week. The goal here is to reflect on the past two weeks, see if there’s any insights you can integrate into what you’re doing moving forward. I’m having a hard time this week.

Dacy

Are you really? Why?

Virginia

I think again, I’m like am I making content or am I getting dressed? That turned out to be a bigger struggle than I expected for me through this whole thing. It’s Wednesday and I haven’t yet posted an outfit. I will. I do feel like I’m starting to pull together some of the things that I’ve liked, what I thought worked in the past two weeks.

Do either of you feel like you’re noticing any major changes in how you’re getting dressed now versus when we started the challenge?

Corinne

I’ve definitely noticed some patterns. I’m more comfortable in an exciting shirt and less exciting pants. It’s also making me think a lot about my overall closet. I really want to pull everything out and go through stuff. It’s also made me think a lot about the infrastructure of my closet. I have a bad closet setup, guys. I just have to admit it. There is so much stuff that’s not getting worn because it’s out of sight.

Virginia

Stuff gets buried in the back?

Corinne

I basically just have a shelf and everything is folded on it. But if the folding gets a little bit knocked over, there’s a layer in the back that just never comes out. So yeah, I’ve just been thinking about how I could change that. Probably not a quick solution. 

Dacy

That makes a huge difference when you’re getting dressed, really. I mean, and it’s funny that you say you have everything folded, because I will usually if it’s possible, recommend that people hang everything because it’s just more visual. It’s just easier to see.

Corinne

I think that would really help. 

Virginia

I definitely hang way more than I fold. I have all my shirts hanging for sure. And dresses and some pants. 

Corinne

Do you even hang t-shirts? 

Dacy

I do. 

Corinne

Wow. Okay, that’s mind blowing. 

Dacy

Y’all should see Corinne’s face right now.

Virginia

I do have base layer tank tops rolled up and put in a drawer. That drawer contains only navy blue and white tank tops. So I don’t need to see those out. I hang any other kind of t-shirt that I might wear by itself. If I have it rolled up in a drawer, I’m not going to remember I even own it. 

Dacy

I have my loungewear and sleeping t-shirts in their own drawer. I don’t love all of Marie Kondo’s organizational tools, but if you do have a lot of T shirts and you don’t a room to hang all of them, if you do the file fold, then at least you can see all the t-shirts that you have.

Corinne

One of my other takeaways was that I want to accessorize more. I think I can really get into a rut where I’m just wearing a shirt and jeans or a shirt and shorts. It felt fun to think about like, okay, t-shirt and jeans is comfortable. How can I make it a little more myself?

Virginia

I had the same thought. Dacy is always putting a cool necklace on and I was like, wow, I own no cool necklaces. I haven’t bought a necklace since my younger child was born, I’m sure. When I was in the baby toddler phase, I stopped wearing them and they never came back.

Dacy

This is amazing guys, because I also had a similar revelation about accessories. Mine was I can wear my simple easy neutral outfits and not be bothered. But then if I do my accessories in color, then all I have to do when I leave the house is grab my bag and put on my shoes and all of a sudden now I have the pop of color. So my realization is maybe I am a pop of color girlie. Is that possible?

Virginia

But the tiny pop! Just a jewelry pop, basically. Just the necklace.

Corinne

I mean, I love that.

Dacy

It’s not by any means an original idea or anything. But I do always want to remind people that when you’re getting dressed and you’re working from home, very rarely are you fully dressed, right? I don’t wear shoes to work from home, I don’t wear my purse. So sometimes our look isn’t complete until we put those things on to go and enter the world. Those things make a big difference.

Corinne

It’s shorts weather where I am now and I feel like so much like accessorizing or styling stuff is like layering, adding clothing. And I’m like, no. I’m already hot. No more. I sent everyone this Tiktok about millennial socks. And so I’ve also been thinking can I accessorize with cool socks? Maybe I need to buy some cool socks. 

Dacy

I like that idea. 

Virginia

I feel like my other big epiphany—Dacy you mentioned wearing more color did help you adjust to wearing more color. I do feel like I am now much more comfortable in straight leg jeans because I wore them pretty diligently every day of the first week and then at least once or twice last week. And I was like, oh yes the volume is turning down on that. That said, my Universal Standard straight leg jeans that I do really like how they look get really baggy and fall off me by like two o’clock. So I did order them in a smaller size. But does that mean I can’t breathe for the first two hours of the day? We’ll see when they arrive.

Dacy

There’s nothing wrong with sitting and not buttoning your pants if that’s what it takes. 

Virginia

That’s another work from home perk. 

Dacy

When you stand up to leave the house you button your pants,

Virginia

You put on your purse and you button your pants. That’s how you accessorize an outfit, guys.

Dacy

Listen, pants are not made for sitting bodies. They’re just not.

Virginia

I mean, I just want it to be better. I’m just gonna say again, yeah, there are actually no good jeans. These jeans are cute and comfortable for a matter of six hours. And that is the best you can hope for out of jeans. 

Corinne

Meanwhile, I love them and could wear them every single day a week, but whatever.

Virginia

I don’t know what’s going on with me and my inability to get pants to stay on. But aesthetically, I feel like I’ve really come around on it. 

That being said, we have spring privilege going on right now where I could wear them with Birkenstocks and sneakers without socks every time. I still feel like come fall, styling straight leg jeans with boots is going to be another journey I go on.

Dacy

I really think the key is the pants length, the jeans length. So I really feel like with straight leg, you do need a little bit of an ankle length or a slightly cropped and you achieve that with the with the cuff. I do think when fall comes that you should be able to make that work that way. I personally really don’t think you should have a break in your jeans. You know how men’s pants will have like a fold over shoe? A lot of times when people say I don’t know what shoes to wear with straight leg pants or with whatever. It’s always about the length and the length is usually too long. 

Virginia

That is good insight.

Corinne

Gen Z disagrees!

Virginia

I am curious, would you both do this again, at some point?

Dacy

Big hesitation.

Virginia

I feel like if I were to do any style challenge again, this is the one I would do. 

Dacy

Sure. We spoke about this at the beginning, but that little rebel in me is bristling a little bit about having to wear a certain thing at a certain time. That doesn’t take into account what I want to wear at this particular moment. So yeah, I think style challenges may just not be for me.

Virginia

That’s valid. What about you Corinne? 

Corinne

I would do it again! Probably in like a year. I realized that it was helpful for me to do a tiny bit of planning in advance. I would do Monday and Tuesday and then on Wednesday, I would be like this is what I’m wearing today. This is what I’m wearing tomorrow. This is what I’m wearing Friday. I was really liking having it planned out. It’s actually so nice to just wake up and know I’m wearing something that I like the next day.

Dacy

That’s such an interesting thing because I think that’s why when I was doing the first week and I felt so just drained by all the decisions, there were a couple of days when I did plan it out and that made it so much easier. I think that is required for this kind of creativity.

I think the other thing I’ll say is that there were a few times when I wore an outfit over the weekend or wore it earlier than I actually posted it. What was interesting is like when I would put was the outfit that I actually wasn’t wearing that day. I was like, oh, but I could easily throw this on because it’s been thought out already. I have a photo of it and here’s what I could wear today. There’s no decision to be made.

Virginia

I do want to move all the photos I took of these outfits and put them in a folder on my phone for the next time I’m feeling like I have to get dressed and I don’t know what I’m doing. This is a very helpful record to have. I think I would do it again, possibly in the fall. I think it was very helpful to do that week of rule breaking and challenging myself before I thought about shopping for spring clothes. It did make me try stuff out, take stuff out of my closet that otherwise I would have been skating right past. And do that “shop your closet” thing for a while because I don’t feel quite as itchy. I mean, as Corinne said, we have both been shopping again the past two weeks. But that’s more of a personality trait of ours. I don’t feel like I have this long list of oh my God, I need everything for spring. I have nothing to wear. I feel pretty clear on like, actually, I have a lot of clothes that I can be wearing right now. 

Dacy

I guess one addition to my response would be, I would probably do this again if I didn’t have to document it for the public. Like if I was just snapping a photo on my phone to put in an album on my phone and no one else had to see it and I didn’t have to make commentary on it. I think it’s a useful exercise for me. The content creation, which is part of what I do all the time, but it also such a pain

Corinne

Meanwhile, I think I might keep posting outfits on TikTok. 

Dacy

Well, listen, I have a couple clients where like, they’re like, oh, I want to wear these cool clothes I own but I have nowhere to wear them. Nobody will see me. I’ve had several people create a private Instagram account just to post their outfits and 10 people follow them or something. 

Virginia

I feel like it’s fun to just text. If I was going to do an outfit and document it, I’d probably text you guys and be like, look at this cute outfit I put together. 

Corinne

I think it definitely felt fun and fulfilling to be more creative with clothing and also chat about it.

Virginia

I think you’re tapped into something. I think you are on your way to being a style influencer. I’m calling it right now. I think Corinne has always had amazing style. 

Dacy

It’s gonna catapult her. 

Corinne

Find me on TikTok.

@selfiefayHappy to be in the final stretch of this #unflatteringtoast style challenge! Wanted to try mixing up this comfy out with some different accessories but i ended up not loving it! Ans going back to my original look. Do we think the clogs need to be worn with socks? I couldnt decide. #ootd

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Dacy

That’s so funny, I think through this challenge, I just quit TikTok without realizing.

Virginia

I had already quit TikTok. 

Dacy

That’s so funny. What was the difference? Was there a different response on TikTok?

Corinne

On TikTok all the comments are just from random people I do not know being like, Cool. Nice. It just doesn’t feel like Instagram. 

Virginia

Well, we should also say that Corinne is working on a very cool new style related project that you will be hearing more about in a few weeks. 

Corinne

It’s a Substack. 

Virginia

So yeah, if you follow her on TikTok and Instagram, stay tuned, because there’s more Corinne style coming your way.

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Virginia

All right. Let’s do Butter. 

Corinne

My Butter is a pair of shorts that I got and wore during the challenge. They’re a stripy short. I’ve been seeing a lot of people wearing striped boxer-ish type shorts and I was wanting to try that trend. So I found some blue and white striped linen shorts from Old Navy that I liked and a lot of people on the internet also liked. Those are my butter. 

Virginia

I really loved those striped shorts on you, and I’m just never upset about a striped anything. That was a real insight for me from this whole challenge. 

Corinne

Yeah, striped shorts are a little more exciting than a striped shirt, but not fully striped pants, which do feel like a stretch. 

Virginia

Okay, my Butter is also striped. It is this Target maxi shirt dress that I have in the green. 

Corinne

This is so cute. 

Virginia

So Emily Henderson wore this and was like, “It’s great for all body types!” And I was like, okay, Emily Henderson, tiny blonde woman. I mean, I love her interior design, but you take that with a grain of salt, that advice. But I thought let me just order it because I was ordering cleaning supplies and whatever else. I have the XXL in the green stripe. And of course it’s sold out in some colors, but it’s a roomy XXL and it does go up to 4x. 

What’s rule challenging about this dress is I will get mistaken for pregnant in it. It hasn’t happened yet, but it will happen because it has this drawstring gather right over the top of your stomach. If you, like me, have not great posture and a belly, it’s going to happen. I have just decided, fuck it. I don’t care. That’s their issue. I really love this dress. It’s super comfy. I could nap in it. And if you are pregnant, this is a great option. It would be nursing friendly. 

Dacy

My Butter is this new style of paint well, new within the last year or two, of pants called the barrel pants or the balloon pant or whatever you want to call them. But it has this interesting shape, it almost makes you look bow legged, the style of the pant. I have just liked the uniqueness of it. And the modern newness of it. So I’ve been on a quest to find some that I liked so I tried a bunch on this week. There are some from Anthropologie that I liked that go up to plus and then from Everlane. They go to 2x but I had to size way down in everything I tried. So I would comfortably say that some of the Everlane pairs could go up to a 3x if you’re typical a 3x. 

Virginia

Thats exciting for Everlane. That’s usually not a brand that does that well. 

Dacy

I think I’ve found some winners.

Virginia

Alright. Well, this was a delightful episode. I do hope folks experiment with the challenge. You can do it anytime. You do not have to be doing it alongside us. It was really fun to see what other outfits folks posted. Some people really went to town with this. But if you do post outfits, use hashtag #unflatteringtoast so we can see them or tag our Instagrams or tag Corinne on TikTok. Dacy and I won’t see it but we’re happy for you. I hope people feel like they can break some rules and also be comfy. 

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Today’s Burnt Toast Podcast was produced and hosted by Corinne, Dacy, and Virginia. You can follow Corinne @selltradeplus. Dacy is @mindful closet and her Substack newsletter and Virginia is @V_SoleSmith on Instagram.

The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe.

Our theme music is by Jeff Bailey and Chris Maxwell.

Tommy Harron is our audio engineer.

Thanks for listening and for supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism!