The Diamond Podcast for Financial Advisors

The Diamond Podcast for Financial Advisors

By Mindy Diamond Financial Advisor Recruiter and Consultant

Launched in 2017 as Mindy Diamond on Independence, the show has taken on a broader perspective beyond the independent space to include topics, insights, and candid conversations around financial advis... more
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Best of The Diamond Podcast for Financial Advisors

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  1. Number 1: Build, Grow & Transact: From Breakaway to Transaction in 3 Years

    Patrick Larkin, Partner & Practice Leader, Cerity Partners Three years after launching his independent RIA, Patrick Larkin merged with Cerity Partners—but not because that was the original plan. He explains how ownership changed the way he viewed enterprise value, optionality, and the future of his business. In Summary Going independent is often viewed as the destination. Patrick Larkin discovered it was just the beginning. Louis sits down with Patrick, Partner and Practice Leader at Cerity Partners and former founder of Oak Hill Wealth Advisors, to discuss an unconventional journey: leaving Wells Fargo to build an independent RIA, then choosing to merge that business just three years later. Rather than following a predetermined exit strategy, Patrick shares how ownership fundamentally changed the way he thought about enterprise value. A conversation with a prospective acquirer revealed that buyers weren’t interested in purchasing a book of business—they were looking for a business. That realization reshaped how he invested, hired, delegated, and ultimately positioned his firm for the future. The conversation from our Build Grow & Transact series also offers a candid look at life after a merger, from evaluating cultural fit and partnership to balancing autonomy with the resources of a larger organization. More broadly, it illustrates how ownership creates optionality—and why the most valuable decision an advisor makes may not be the one they originally envisioned. The Storyline After spending nearly 15 years building a successful practice at AG Edwards, Wachovia, and Wells Fargo, Patrick Larkin launched Oak Hill Wealth Advisors in 2022 with a simple objective: build a business on his own terms. Like many advisors, he expected independence to be the final destination for a long time. But then there was the realization that ownership changes more than economics; it changes perspective. And it became the beginning of an entirely different way of thinking. As acquisition inquiries arrived sooner than expected, Patrick realized something that fundamentally changed his strategy. Sophisticated buyers weren’t evaluating his client relationships as a book of business; they were evaluating Oak Hill as an enterprise. That insight shifted his priorities from maximizing short-term profitability to building a business that could thrive beyond its founder. Just three years after launching, Patrick chose to merge with Cerity Partners—not because he was looking for an exit, but because he believed it strengthened the future for his clients, his team, and his family. Louis and Patrick explore what led to that decision, how ownership increased the value of his business almost immediately, why he compares independence to an IPO, and what advisors should consider if they hope to create options for the future—even if they don’t yet know what that future looks like. Topics Covered Building enterprise value versus maximizing annual income Creating optionality through ownership Leaving Wells Fargo to launch an independent RIA Why buyers value businesses more than books of business Evaluating strategic partners and acquisition opportunities The economics of independence and business valuation Life after merging with Cerity Partners Balancing autonomy with enterprise-scale resources Leadership, succession, and building beyond the founder Long-term ownership and partnership models > Download a transcript of this episode… Listen and Learn Highlights for Advisors Why did Patrick decide to leave Wells Fargo? (11:07) Patrick explains why growing frustrations around control, firm priorities, and the ability to build his business eventually outweighed the comfort of staying put. How did going independent immediately change the value of his business? (21:42) Patrick introduces one of the episode’s biggest ideas: why launching Oak Hill felt like taking a company public and how ownership increased the firm’s value almost overnight. Why did Patrick sell only three years after becoming independent? (20:03) An unexpected conversation with a prospective acquirer completely changed how he viewed enterprise value and accelerated his long-term thinking. What separates a business from a book of business? (21:42) Patrick discusses why recruiting advisors, delegating client relationships, and investing beyond himself made Oak Hill more attractive to strategic buyers. Why Cerity Partners? (26:48) Rather than focusing on valuation, Cerity emphasized culture, partnership, and long-term alignment—qualities Patrick says ultimately mattered most. What is life actually like after a merger? (37:57) Patrick offers an unusually candid perspective on autonomy, leadership, and why he says he hasn’t second-guessed the decision once. Key Takeaways Ownership creates opportunities that often aren’t visible until after independence. Enterprise value is built by creating a business that can thrive beyond its founder. The first acquisition conversation can be valuable even if no transaction occurs. Cultural alignment may ultimately matter more than valuation when selecting a long-term partner. Independence doesn’t eliminate future options—it expands them. Strategic transactions can strengthen outcomes for clients, employees, and owners simultaneously. The goal isn’t simply to own a business; it’s to create choices for what comes next. https://youtu.be/f7FGLGjBbyo Quotable Moments “The day Oak Hill launched felt like the business had gone public.” “Potential acquirers weren’t interested in buying a book. They were interested in buying a business.” “Ownership isn’t simply about control. It’s about creating optionality.” “The fear of leaving is almost always worse than the actual experience of leaving.” FAQs Why did Patrick Larkin merge with Cerity Partners only three years after launching his RIA? Patrick explains that independence changed how he viewed enterprise value. After learning what sophisticated buyers were actually looking for, he intentionally built Oak Hill as a business rather than simply managing for annual profitability. Why does Patrick compare independence to an IPO? Because ownership immediately transformed the economic value of his practice. Rather than participating in an internal succession model, he owned an independent enterprise that carried substantially greater market value. What changed after Patrick became independent? Beyond gaining control, he began making decisions through the lens of enterprise value—investing in advisors, systems, and infrastructure that would make the business less dependent on him personally. What made Cerity Partners stand out? Patrick cites the firm’s culture, partnership model, meritocracy, long-term vision, and ability to combine local autonomy with enterprise-level capabilities. Is this episode only relevant for advisors considering selling? No. The broader lesson is that ownership creates flexibility. Whether an advisor ultimately remains independent or joins another organization, understanding how enterprise value is created can influence decisions from day one. What is the biggest lesson Patrick hopes advisors take away? That independence isn’t simply about leaving a firm. It’s about creating the ability to choose what comes next on your own terms. Patrick explains that independence changed how he viewed enterprise value. After learning what sophisticated buyers were actually looking for, he intentionally built Oak Hill as a business rather than simply managing for annual profitability. Because ownership immediately transformed the economic value of his practice. Rather than participating in an internal succession model, he owned an independent enterprise that carried substantially greater market value. Beyond gaining control, he began making decisions through the lens of enterprise value—investing in advisors, systems, and infrastructure that would make the business less dependent on him personally. Patrick cites the firm’s culture, partnership model, meritocracy, long-term vision, and ability to combine local autonomy with enterprise-level capabilities. No. The broader lesson is that ownership creates flexibility. Whether an advisor ultimately remains independent or joins another organization, understanding how enterprise value is created can influence decisions from day one. That independence isn’t simply about leaving a firm. It’s about creating the ability to choose what comes next on your own terms. Related Resources From Start-Up to $31B Behemoth RIA: The Catalysts Behind the Growth of Mega-Firm Cerity Partners Ownership Matters: What Advisors Need to Know When Evaluating Firms Top Tips for Setting Your Business Up for Success Years Before a Move Patrick LarkinPartner and Practice Leader Patrick is a Partner and Practice Leader in the Lansdowne, VA office. He is a member of the Lansdowne Practice, where he works closely with families, foundations, and non-profits to help them define and achieve their financial goals with clarity and confidence. With a deep specialization in retirement income distribution planning and complex risk and wealth management strategies, Patrick is known for helping clients simplify complicated financial decisions, reduce uncertainty, and build sustainable, long-term plans. His approach emphasizes fiduciary responsibility, transparency, and personalized guidance — ensuring clients always feel informed and empowered. Prior to joining Cerity Partners, Patrick was the founding member of Oak Hill Wealth Advisors, where he built a highly respected independent advisory practice that earned the trust of families, professionals, and mission-driven organizations across the region. His leadership was instrumental in shaping a client-first culture that continues today. Patrick’s work is rooted in a passion for long-term relationships — guiding clients not just through markets, but through life’s milestones such as retirement, business transitions, philanthropic planning, and wealth transfer across generations. He takes pride in being both a strategic advisor and a steady partner to the people he serves. Patrick lives in Bluemont, VA, with his wife Angela, their two children, Paige and Sean, and their Golden Retrievers, Huckleberry and Genoa. Outside of the office, Patrick and his family enjoy an active lifestyle — whether it’s hiking and backpacking on the Appalachian Trail, biking the Great Allegheny Passage, or sailing on the Chesapeake Bay. These experiences reflect his belief in balance, resilience, and enjoying the journey — values he also brings to his work with clients. NOTE: The views and opinions expressed by the guests on this podcast are their own and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of Diamond Consultants. Neither Diamond Consultants nor the guests on this podcast are compensated in any way for their participation. View the transcript of this episode… Build, Grow & Transact: From Breakaway to Transaction in 3 Years A conversation with Louis Diamond and Patrick Larkin, Partner & Practice Leader at Cerity Partners. Louis Diamond: Welcome to the latest episode of our podcast series for financial advisors. Today’s episode is Build, Grow & Transact: From Breakaway to Transaction in 3 Years. It’s a conversation with Patrick Larkin, Partner and Practice Leader at Cerity Partners. I’m Louis Diamond, and this is The Diamond Podcast for Financial Advisors. Mindy Diamond: At Diamond Consultants, we help elite advisors identify the right environment for their businesses to thrive, whether that’s at a wirehouse, boutique, or independent firm. With nearly three decades of experience, we’ve guided thousands of advisors and represented more than a quarter of a trillion dollars in assets transitioned. And each year, one in four advisors managing a billion dollars or more who change firms are our clients. Our process is education-driven and based on building relationships, starting as your strategic partner well before you’re even thinking of a move. To schedule a confidential conversation, call us at 908-879-1002. Wondering why advisors change firms and where they’re headed? Are transition deals going up or down? Those very questions and more inspired us to create our annual Advisor Transition Report. It’s the award-winning, data-driven resource designed for advisors that connects the dots between the motivations around movement and the firm’s appetite for top talent. Arm yourself with the knowledge you need to make smart decisions. Download your copy at diamond-consultants.com/transitionreport. Louis Diamond: Ownership as a way of creating opportunities you can’t always predict. That’s exactly why we created our Build, Grow, and Transact series. Independence isn’t the end of the story. It’s often the beginning of thinking differently about enterprise value, optionality, and what comes next. Today’s guest is Patrick Larkin, Partner and Practice Leader at Cerity Partners, and formerly the founder of Oak Hill Wealth Advisors. Patrick spent nearly 15 years building a successful practice at A.G. Edwards, Wachovia, and eventually Wells Fargo before launching his own independent firm in 2022. Just three years later, he merged that firm into Cerity. At first glance, that timeline might seem surprisingly short, but as you’ll hear, the merger wasn’t a change in direction. It was the result of seeing his business differently once he owned it. Yet, it’s this perspective that really brings that thought home. Patrick said the day Oak Hill launched felt like the business had gone public because overnight, what had been viewed as a book of business became an enterprise with substantially greater value, some four to five times the value of what it was worth at Wells. And that realization changed the way he invested, the way he hired, and ultimately the way he thought about the future. Pat and I also talk about something advisors don’t often discuss candidly, what life actually looks like after a merger. How much control do you give up? What changes day to day? How do you know whether you’re joining a partner or simply selling a business? Whether your long-term plan is to remain independent forever or eventually join a larger organization, Patrick’s experience is a reminder that ownership isn’t simply about control. It’s about creating optionality and putting yourself in a position where the next decision is yours to make. So let’s get to it. Patrick, thanks for coming on our show today. Patrick Larkin: Oh, my pleasure. Nice to meet you, Louis. Louis Diamond: You too. So let’s start off basically how we start every interview. Tell us about yourself, your background, and how you found your way into our industry in the first place. Patrick Larkin: Yeah, thank you for asking. I knew I always wanted to be a financial advisor. That part really wasn’t in question, but upon graduating college and being a 22-year-old, I knew that it was probably not practical to walk in and start advising people my parents’ age with their life savings. Probably wasn’t going to be a recipe for success. So I took a quick tour through the pharmaceutical industry first, which ended up being unexpectedly valuable. My employers there pushed me to think like an entrepreneur and within our territories. And honestly, that mindset never left me. It shaped how I built everything that came after. Eventually, an opportunity presented itself in Loudoun County, Virginia in Northern Virginia, and I became an FA trainee with A.G. Edwards, absolutely fantastic firm to start my career. Now, what drew me to this career was pretty simple. I felt like it was one of the professions that we had an opportunity to do so much good for others while simultaneously also doing well for yourself, and those two things aren’t in conflict. I also really loved the idea that in this profession there was no hiding. You don’t get paid to show up. You get paid for what you actually do. And perhaps for me, what was most important, I loved the weight of responsibility. I loved earning people’s trust. I loved the idea of deserving, being deserving of their trust, and being a steward of what they’ve worked a lifetime to build. I never took that lightly, and I still don’t. Louis Diamond: That’s amazing. Yeah, I mean, the number of people I’ve heard, you talked so fondly about A.G. Edwards and there’s a bunch of other firms that have since been absorbed or emerged that are like the regional firms of old. So not surprised to hear you loved it. A.G. Edwards, obviously, became Wells Fargo Advisors or was acquired or merged with Wells Fargo. So I know you’re at Wells and A.G. Edwards until 2022. So give us a quick version. How’d you build your practice from the pharma world into being in FA? Patrick Larkin: Yeah, so as I started with A.G. Edwards, I came in at really just the perfect time. It was towards the end of the financial crisis. And I built the business the old-fashioned way with a lot of cold calling and eventually did some dinner seminars, which I can tell you is a very expensive way to learn how to speak in front of a room. But I made some progress, and I was also in a great office, small enough that some of the advisors there would hand off some of the smaller accounts that they weren’t interested in working with, and got an opportunity to get a lot of reps in working with real life clients and individuals. I knew early on I didn’t have enough talent to win on talent alone, so I made up for it and compensated for that with really hard work. The real turning point came for me when A.G. Edwards was first acquired by Wachovia Securities, and that was about five years into my career. And at that point, my branch manager, who was eyeing retirement, asked me to step in as her partner, and that changed everything. We eventually moved over to a Wachovia Securities office, another really great local office in Loudoun County, Virginia. And from that office, I worked on and became a CIMA, a CFP, worked with the clients, built a business through referrals. And I found at that point in my career when I would go to a meeting with Wachovia, eventually Wells Fargo, as a young 30-year-old, I would look around the room often and realize that I was the youngest person in the room. The funny thing was 10 years later, I would go into that same room and I’d look around and I still was the youngest guy in that room. And those demographics in our industry, and when I came into our industry, ultimately led that office that I worked in with Wells Fargo Advisors, I eventually was the recipient and party to five different succession plans- Louis Diamond: Wow. Patrick Larkin: … at Wells Fargo Advisors. I hoped that I had built a reputation as somebody that these other advisors would entrust with their clients. And over that time period, really, I would say professionally, one of my accomplishments I’m most proud of is all five of those retired advisors that I used to work with, who had an opportunity to see me work with clients, all became clients of mine, I still continue to work with. And it’s professionally just one of the greatest honors that I’ve ever had. Louis Diamond: I mean, that’s a large number of advisors you helped sunset, but I would agree it’s the ultimate proof of concept that they not only trusted you with their clients and their life’s work, but now also with their family’s wealth. So I like that, kind of the full life cycle there. So I’m curious, though, you stayed at Wells through a really turbulent time through the fake bank scandal. There’s a lot of attrition. I mean, obviously, they’re still a powerhouse to this day, but what kept you at Wells for as long as it did before you left in 2022? Patrick Larkin: You described it as a turbulent time. Pretty turbulent might be an understatement. Even before Wells, the transition to Wells, Wachovia Bank had been the first company that we transitioned to from A.G. Edwards. And we, of course, went through the financial crisis during that time period and handholding our clients and helping them get through that time period and dealing with concerns that we shouldn’t really have to be prepared with. “Is my money safe? It’s not what’s happening to the market, but is my money safe in your institution?” But once things stabilized, I found real purpose in partnering with some of the retiring advisors and opportunities that came up. It was a really wonderful climate and atmosphere in our local office. It was really a family-like atmosphere, and I still had a lot to learn. And all those advisors that I partnered with, I’ve joked I’ve never had an original idea in my entire life. I stole all my good ideas from them. And some of them were really ahead of their time, and I learned, adopted, and built my own philosophies by working closely with them. Ultimately, by the time I left Wells Fargo, I was finishing up the fifth sunset program and had only made my way halfway through the sunset before the opportunity presented itself to create my own practice. Louis Diamond: So I’m curious, when did you first seriously start thinking about leaving and what really tipped the scales for you? What was the proverbial straw that broke the camel’s back? Patrick Larkin: Yeah, it really was a number of small items and ultimately one big one. But for a long time, I’d been content, but as I tried to grow the business beyond what I could do individually, I felt like I kept running into walls. There were it felt like limitations on how I could build out my team and structure the practice the way I envisioned it. Additionally, there were some new policies that also started to bother me. One of them was the platform advisory fee, which in my eyes was less about client transparency and more about replacing a declining revenue source on the firm’s balance sheet. And after dealing with clients and helping them through the bank scandal at the firm, I was concerned that this would come back and hurt me and the relationships that I had with my clients. Incidentally, I just recently onboarded a new client that transferred to us. And for them, looking at their statement, identifying this platform advisory fee- Louis Diamond: Oh boy. Patrick Larkin: … was the last straw for them before they moved about 15 million of assets to us. Also, I thought I would be I would be a better allocator of resources than Wells Fargo. Wells Fargo retained about half of the revenue that I earned for the business. They seemed to think that the best allocation of that money was additional middle management. Whereas, I thought investment in technology, investment in additional personnel, and an investment in marketing were best places to continue to build out my vision. The final straw, and really a thing that crystallized everything for me was when I read a book in 2021 called The Infinite Game, a book written by Simon Sinek. Chapter eight, the title is Ethical Fading. And it uses the Wells Fargo bank scandal as a case study in what happens when a firm loses its moral compass. I read the chapter and thought, “There it is, I have to do something.” That was really the final push I needed. I mentioned earlier I was very fortunate to start my career with a company called A.G. Edwards, a regional brokerage firm. And while I was at A.G. Edwards, there was a research report that came out on A.G. Edwards as a company. And I’m going to paraphrase a little bit on what was said in that report, but ultimately there was a line in there, and it was a criticism, but I took it as a huge positive as being an employee there. The line said, “While management does not necessarily say it, we believe the client is put ahead of the shareholder.” And that was something I was very proud of. And I just, upon reflecting on it, felt confident those were words that I never was going to see go to print about Wells Fargo. Louis Diamond: So you left Wells in 2022 and founded Oak Hill Wealth Partners in Lansdowne, Virginia. Walk us through that decision. Why go independent rather than going to another firm? Patrick Larkin: I really thought moving to another firm, the things that I had grown frustrated with at Wells Fargo Advisors, I would also find at another wirehouse firm. I was ready, and honestly, the simple answer is I thought I could do better. And I wanted control after having what I felt like was very little control. I had grown frustrated with others making important decisions, and I wanted an opportunity to grab the reins and make decisions on my own. I believe at that time, the future of wealth management was going to be built around fiduciary advice, and I didn’t want to watch that from the sidelines anymore. I was watching what was happening in the industry. And as we were trying to hire new advisors, reaching out to college graduates who were studying CFP programs, identified that they were more inclined to want to start employment with an RIA than a wirehouse. What made the timing work really well was Wells Fargo had actually introduced a program to help advisors in the private client group spin off and establish their own RIAs. Now, whenever I tell this to another advisor, particularly ones that are wirehouses, they can’t understand it. And quite frankly, I don’t understand why they helped us do it, but we were about the 30th practice that they helped us through this process and they provided real support. They hired consultants, made vendor recommendations, even referrals to financing so I could pay off my last succession plan before I left. The only really upside for Wells Fargo was that the ask was that we continue to use First Clearing as the custodian. And one of the downsides for me was I was going to leave all of my deferred comp behind with Wells Fargo. Now, all clients had to do to join me was sign a positive consent. And on May 9th, 2020, we turned on our computers in our new office and our clients were already there. That same day, we launched and started a relationship with Charles Schwab. And it was so exciting to be able to start shopping for what I thought was the best FinTech, really feeling like I was stuck with proprietary tools that Wells Fargo advisors had offered. I felt like I was a kid in a candy store. And if there was a cool tool that I identified that would help us serve our clients better, I was all in and I was buying it. I really feel that some of the technology that Oak Hill eventually bought into and some of the tools we’re using now are going to take years and years before they eventually trickle down to where the wirehouses are, if ever. Louis Diamond: Interesting. So it was really it was for the most part an internal move from one- Patrick Larkin: It was- Louis Diamond: … channel to the other. Patrick Larkin: … it was an internal move, but there was no requirement to stay at First Clearing. As a fiduciary, they couldn’t make those demands. And again, they helped us with the financing, which is really unusual that they helped us secure a loan so I could pay off the last retiring advisor. It’s really unusual that a bank will loan money where there is no business at the time, but because of previous experience that financial institution had working with Wells, they helped us facilitate the transaction. And the program is still in place at Wells Fargo, which is absolutely amazing to me after the experience that I’ve just had myself. Louis Diamond: Yeah, it’s interesting. I mean, does it cannibalize a more profitable revenue source? Sure. But if the alternative was all the assets go to Schwab or Fidelity, to me, honestly, it’s smart. I think they played the long game by not being adversarial on it. Patrick Larkin: I think they played a long game and they took the philosophy, and I think they use it as a recruiting tool that if you love them, set them free. And that’s exactly what they did. Louis Diamond: So for the rest of the episode, I want to talk about your eventual, and not that long period of time, transaction or decision to merge Oak Hill with Cerity Partners. This is our Build, Grow, Transact subseries. And I was really struck by your story because you were three years or so into running Oak Hill, and then your merger with Cerity Partners, an amazing RIA closed. That’s a fairly short runway. Usually when I see folks go independent for the first time, it’s 10, 15, 20 years, maybe never, that they decide to merge or sell. I’m curious to understand your thinking about the transaction. Were you looking to do something? Or was it just like right place, right time and the opportunity presented itself? Patrick Larkin: I had started Oak Hill with the intent of eventually down the road, much closer to retirement, looking for a partner. The opportunity and what I learned early on helped change that idea and philosophy, and I adapted and made modifications to take advantage of it. Louis Diamond: Interesting. So you weren’t necessarily planning on selling or merging the business, it just kind of circumstances happened the way they did? Patrick Larkin: Yeah. When we started Oak Hill Wealth Advisors, it was a really pretty short period of time before we started getting calls from larger national RIAs about potential acquisition, much sooner than I expected. Early on, I just brushed them off, but about a year in, I took one of those calls and it really just opened my eyes up. I realized for the first time this small firm, this little practice actually had some real value, way more than I’d given it credit for. That first call, that first exploration didn’t go anywhere. It wasn’t a good fit. But what it gave me was a much clearer picture of what the serious acquirers were actually looking for. And that changed decisions I made at Oak Hill going forward. I really at that point stopped trying to optimize for near-term profit and really thought of my business as a business and started building towards enterprise value, sometimes at the cost of short-term income. And that turned out to be exactly the right call. Louis Diamond: That’s such an interesting perspective. Let’s double-click into that concept. So it sounds almost counterintuitive that if you kind of had this light bulb moment that like, “Okay, maybe I want to transact my business sooner than I initially thought.” I think most people would say, “Let’s become lean and mean. Let’s become as profitable as possible so my EBITDA’s higher.” But you took the different approach. What were the decisions you did to invest more in enterprise value rather than current cash flow? Patrick Larkin: A true business is one that doesn’t need me to be here every day to operate. And when we left Wells Fargo Advisors, it was myself and one other advisor that created Oak Hill Wealth Advisors. I was responsible for about 95% of the assets and revenue. And one of the more significant investments we made is in additional advisors. I recruited three new advisors, all CFPs, to join Oak Hill Wealth Advisors. Whereas, before I had been largely managing all the relationships myself. For someone that kind of grew up in the regional wirehouse space, it’s pretty counterintuitive to start moving relationships away from you onto other advisors. You’re trained and built to create a moat around your relationships, and realized that the potential acquirers are not interested, at least the ones I was interested in, weren’t interested in buying a book. They were interested in buying a business. And that just meant every decision we made going forward was not profit-driven, but how can I increase the value of the business? So after that first call, I knew I probably would be looking to move forward with a transaction sooner as opposed to the end of retirement. That information that I got on that first call helped me realize that when Oak Hill Wealth Advisors opened its doors on May 9th, 2022, we effectively had an IPO. I had great familiarity with how the succession plans at Wells Fargo Advisors worked. And on that day that we opened our practice, the value of my business jumped to be four to five times the value of it in a succession plan at Wells Fargo Advisors. Now, I knew going forward that I was going to be able to increase revenue. I was going to be able to increase EBITDA. I was going to potentially have some benefits from a market tailwind. I knew the multiples of EBITDA that the firms use may fluctuate, but the biggest change by far occurred leaving the wirehouse and having the value of my business grow four to fivefold in that same day. So what I really focused on was making sure that I was going to, when I was ready to start looking again after I had worked on improving the practice, really was going to look for a firm that was going to be a good cultural fit for both my clients, my team, and myself. Louis Diamond: That’s such a cool perspective. I’ve never heard anyone say that the day we launched your independent business was like an IPO. But honestly, it’s so true. You’re planting a flag in the ground that like, “Here is real value. This is value that we’ve created that we own rather than it being a book of business and a W-2 paycheck.” And it’s a fascinating perspective. Patrick Larkin: Yep. It really is amazing that the value changed that much on one day and the future value changes. Looking at the equity that I owned in Oak Hill Wealth Advisors, it made sense to consider is there a better way to take some risk off the table for myself and my family and diversify some of the equity that I had in Oak Hill Wealth Advisors with a larger enterprise? Louis Diamond: It makes complete sense. Obviously, everyone would sign up for 4 to 5X increase in value. Patrick Larkin: Sure. Louis Diamond: That’s not the reason most people go independent, but it’s important to know. And also, what I really liked about what you shared is I think a really valuable learning for anyone is those calls come in, whether it’s from annoying people like me or from an acquirer, from a firm, they’re not all noise. You took it as an opportunity to learn. Even though that first person who called wasn’t the right fit, it crystallized something in your mind and it let you make proactive decisions that ultimately paid off in spades when it came time to sign the dotted line for your transaction with Cerity. So I think it’s brilliant. And it’s very big picture, big-business-owner-type stuff that I think a lot of people will just filter out because it’s annoying and I’m young, I’m not looking to sell, but that was the journey. Patrick Larkin: Yeah, that first call changed my opinion about timing of when to move forward with a partnership. Originally, I thought this would be something at the end of retirement. The timing of doing so sooner seemed a lot more appealing after having that conversation and realizing what we had actually built. Louis Diamond: Amazing. So ultimately you decided to merge with Cerity Partners. We’ve had Kurt Miscinski from Cerity Partners on the show. They’re a real heavyweight within the RIA world. Most recently, they were valued at $8 billion in a recap, and it’s a very impressive firm. What specifically drew you to Cerity versus other potential buyers? Like you said, you got a lot of calls. Patrick Larkin: After that first call, I just got to work and focused on continuing to take care of our clients, building a team, adding new advisors, being a mentor to those advisors. But at the same time, we were being approached fairly regularly by that point. And I had a pretty good system for quickly deciding whether something was worth a second look, and most weren’t. But about a year ago, one of the national RIAs caught my attention and I started having conversations with them. And once I had progressed with them, I though, “You know what? If I’m giving this consideration, I really need to cast a wider net.” So I reached out to other RIAs that I had looked at and admired and been keeping an eye on. And ultimately, my longtime business coach, Barbara Kay, suggested I talk with Cerity Partners, a company that one of her other clients had just recently joined. And from the very first call, I could tell something was different. And I talked to many different companies. Cerity Partners, and an individual I spoke with, Geoff Newman, they weren’t leading with valuation formulas or deal structure. They were asking questions about my clients, my team, and how I actually ran the practice. They had a very defined process for identifying partners who were genuinely compatible, not just advisors with books that were transferable. And that distinction mattered greatly to me. They also offered really, in my opinion, the right balance of support and still having some autonomy. And their aspiration to deliver consistent standard of care to clients, whether they be in California or Virginia, so that those individuals get the same quality of experience, resonated with how I was already running things within my practice. That combination of support and autonomy, I really liked the idea of continuing to have oversight over my local practice, over our practice, which included the budget, salaries, and bonuses. It more than anybody else felt like a partnership and not a buyout. And I really appreciate it during that first call, Cerity was the only company that talked about a hundred-year plan. It was amazing to me to hear what their thoughts were. Most of the other firms I spoke with talked about valuations. And very quickly in the process, I found myself on a Zoom call with a Patagonia fleece vest-wearing private equity rep walking me through a valuation. And it was efficient, but it was not a cultural fit for me. And the infrastructure behind us and the combination of autonomy is really harder to find than most people think. As I progressed with Cerity, I remember early on in the process thinking to myself, “My God, I hope they want me, I hope they want me,” because I could tell I’m a very process-driven person They had a process with the way they brought me on board. And ultimately, we had a due diligence trip set up to go to one of their larger offices where I met with one of their leaders, Claire O’Keefe, part of their practice development, and had an opportunity to meet with different leaders within the firm and really get my arms wrapped around the potential that they had. Just the quality of the people I encountered through the whole process just kept reinforcing the decision. And by the time we got to the finish line, it didn’t feel like a transaction. It felt like I was joining something that I was excited to be part of. So just a little bit more about what attracted me to Cerity, their culture is just phenomenal. Cerity Partners uses the word “meritocracy” and they actually mean it. Ownership and influence here track your contribution, not your tenure or how well you play the politics. I just attended my first partner meeting in April, and without exaggeration, it was the most extraordinary professional meeting I’ve attended in my 25-year career. During the meeting, there was open debate about the direction of the firm, and every voice in the room carried weight. You could feel the culture. And that type of culture is built over years. You can’t fake it. Everyone in the room it felt like was rowing in the same direction. And by the time the meeting was over, I was so excited to get back to my team and tell them about what I had just witnessed, I wasn’t looking for the exit. I was looking for the brick wall to run through. I was so excited. And every once in a while I wonder having spent so much time in the wirehouse spaces, the bar just set really low for me when I talked to some of my other colleagues that have been independent for a long time. But it was just an absolutely amazing experience. And I do want to just add, one of the last really important things to me about Cerity Partners is I’ve been very fortunate with my career and in this profession. And part of my goal over the rest of my career is to have a legacy. And my legacy currently exists with the families I’ve advised and the team that I’ve built and have served and led. But Cerity Partners is helping me achieve even a greater legacy in our industry with our shared long-term goals. During my first meeting, they talked about their hundred-year vision of being a worldwide employee-owned professional services firm. And currently, and this is very exciting, the employees are the largest shareholder of the firm. No one else I talked to talked about their long-term goals like this, and it’s a vision I believe in. I want to contribute to help to see it accomplished. And one day when I do retire, I want to look back and see how I contribute it to a company that I believe is going to change the direction of professional wealth management. Louis Diamond: Wow. Patrick Larkin: My partnership with Cerity Partners is going to make that a reality. It’s just an amazing place. Yeah, very happy. Louis Diamond: Honestly, you can’t fake that type of enthusiasm. It sounds like- Patrick Larkin: It’s not- Louis Diamond: … you entered into a transaction, which is it’s like jumping into the deep end. How do you sort through what’s the sales process versus what’s real? How much of this is actually going to translate to my life? But hearing you not that long after the transaction, you still feel that and it’s very cool. In the press release I read, you cited estate planning, private markets access, and cross-border planning as key reasons for the merger. Can you talk about what it was about those? Maybe- Patrick Larkin: Yeah. Louis Diamond: … anything else that was missed? Patrick Larkin: Yeah. Louis Diamond: And were those not things that you felt like you could have delivered yourself as a standalone? Patrick Larkin: I thought that they were going to help me be able to be more effective in delivering those, but they weren’t the complete picture. The capabilities that we cited in the release were genuine gaps I wanted to fill and have available for clients and be able to prospect and go after new additional clients. But being fully honest, there were also deeper drivers. One was my team. Sometimes we get emotional about this. Being someone who’s trusted is really important to me, and that’s something I hold in high priority. There are people that followed me out of Wells Fargo to join me. One of my client associates had delayed her retirement so that she could join me and help us launch for the first three months. One of my other client associates has been with me close to 15 years. These are people that trusted me to do the right thing and to make sure that I wasn’t walking them off the plank. Being able to join Cerity Partners and give them a future that didn’t hinge entirely on my personal longevity was a huge relief. And Cerity Partners is an ownership culture. I’m so happy to say today that every single individual on my team in our practice in Lansdowne is now either an equity owner in Cerity Partners or very shortly will be an equity- Louis Diamond: So cool. Patrick Larkin: … equity owner. So they have a stake as well in what they’re building. It matters. My youngest client associate noticed how much it costs to send to FedEx. And he goes, “Now that I’m an owner, maybe we should rethink about sending regular mail.” Another driver was my family. And I’ve always had the philosophy of trying to prioritize and clients first, team and colleagues, and then my family. And I’ve always made decisions that if I put those others before myself, eventually I’ll be taken care of. And going through this transaction, it was so generous to my family and provided such security. There was a little bit of guilt that, “Am I doing this for all the right reasons?” But being able to secure my family’s future, converting equity in a three-year-old RIA into a stake of a $8 billion-plus valuation with institutional backing, that was a meaningful moment and I’d be less than honest if I glossed over that. I also really wanted to be part of something larger than myself. And the opportunity to help build a legacy in this business with Cerity Partners really gives me the platform to do that. Louis Diamond: Very cool. I can tell that you’re genuine, not just because of the way you sound, the way you’re speaking, but in the very beginning of the episode, you talked about the reason you got into this business was because you thought it gave you the dual purpose of being able to help people, but also being able to enrich yourself or your family. So this answer, it comes full circle. You’re able to accomplish all these goals, which made it the right decision. And I think, look, I say to advisors all the time, “You’re allowed to be greedy, you’re allowed to be selfish as long as the clients are still in the front of your mind as the most important thing.” There’s nothing wrong with doing better for clients, building a legacy in your case, but also reaping the rewards of all your hard work and labor and also all the risks that you’ve taken over your career. I got to ask you, though, from being an employee of Wells, where you were running your team, for the most part, you can run the business within their guardrails the way you want, to then running an RIA, which is really like you’re fully in control of everything, to now being a partner, but you’re not the one who has the name on the door anymore. Patrick Larkin: Right, right. Louis Diamond: Well, how do you think about the giving up control and full ownership of your practice versus owning a very small amount of a much larger entity? Patrick Larkin: There was such continuity. Oak Hill Wealth Advisors and Cerity Partners were so philosophically aligned that I genuinely never felt like I was giving up anything that I wasn’t glad to let go. My wife joined the business shortly before I left Wells Fargo Advisors. And still to this day, on my drive home from work, I call her up and say, “You’re not going to believe this.” And it’s all a positive, good thing. So Cerity has struck the perfect balance of that autonomy and support combination that I was looking for. So I still have control and a say over the way our practice is managed. Very shortly after the merger, my supervisor came down and met me for the first time, and we went out together after the day had ended. And early in the conversation I said to him, “What can I do to make your life easier?” And he said, “Pat, what can I do to make your life easier?” And that set the tone that still exists to this day. I almost cried when he said that because that was so different than what I had experienced up to that point. So the collaboration, the way we work together, it’s just absolutely amazing. And not once for a single moment have I second-guessed my decision. And it’s really weird because I’ve now been part of this organization for nearly nine months, and there just has not been one thing that’s occurred where I said, “That’s a disappointment.” It’s just been absolutely amazing every single day. Louis Diamond: Very cool. To me, there’s different arcs of when you want to ask people the question of, “Hey, any regrets?” And usually you don’t want to ask them too soon because they’re still going through the transition and integration and growing pains. And you don’t want to ask them too far in the future because you forget about what was life before. To be this short of a duration into this new partnership and to have these feelings, that’s absolutely pretty special. I got two more questions for you, Pat, if you don’t mind. Patrick Larkin: Sure. Louis Diamond: First one, economically, to me, one of the hardest things for really any advisor to really grapple with or to fully comprehend or make their own is, “I own 100% of the equity in my business. I get to decide when I want to sell in the future. My business is growing 10% per year. I wait to sell until 10 years from now, my business is going to be much bigger and I get to keep all the cash flow. I get to make all the decisions.” That compared to the path that you took, which was take cash off the table, which everyone understands, to, “Now, I own a much smaller piece of a much larger pie.” How would you talk to someone about the financial trade-off between a hundred percent ownership in their business, full control, full discretion over everything, versus becoming a minority equity partner in a larger entity? Patrick Larkin: You have to look at the valuation of my business, again, the day that we opened our doors as Oak Hill Wealth Advisors. There was such a massive jump in the value of the business. There was not going to be an opportunity for an appreciation at that level. So then, you have to compare what the growth rate is of Oak Hill Wealth Advisors versus a Cerity Partners. And I’m not embarrassed to say that Cerity Partners is and has been growing at a much faster rate of return. The value of the equity that I have retained in Cerity Partners, my ownership stake, I fully expect by the time I transact that business as I get closer to retirement, that’s going to be worth many times more than whatever opportunity I would have had at Wells Fargo with the valuation they would have provided me. Nevermind, very important, the tax consequences of a structure like this is all the retiring advisors that I worked with were taxed at their highest marginal rate. I owned a business and we were taxed at long-term capital gains rates. A significant difference in savings in what as the owner we actually realize. So yeah, I feel very comfortable with the ownership that I have and the control and continued opportunity with the meritocracy culture to increase my share of ownership in the company. Louis Diamond: Okay, and let’s do one more question here. I’ll pick it back up. So Pat, I think it’s a really cool perspective. It’s almost do your homework, and if you find the right horse and the right jockey that can run faster than you can on your own, that the equity value will compound and grow and appreciate in a faster, more efficient way than what you’re doing on your own, which makes complete sense. It’s the ultimate trade-off. And again, it’s like jumping into the deep end. On the one hand, Oak Hill was all you, right? You control the growth, for better or worse, for the good days, the bad days, the good years, the bad years, versus now your growth is diversified amongst hundreds of partners across M&A, across different lead flow channels, et cetera. It makes complete sense. But honestly, if I were an advisor, I don’t know how I would think about it. I think it’s all just fact-and-circumstance-based on where I am in my life and who the firm is and what I’m trying to accomplish. But it’s such a cool perspective because usually the playbook that we see, which is why we did this series, is go independent and there’s a long pause until there is a realization of all the value that’s been created. So seeing you do this in a much quicker timeframe, it seems like it was the absolutely right decision. To me, it just is another path, another way that an advisor or a firm is able to think about their future. Any final advice or parting words for someone who is sitting right where you were in 2021 or 2022 thinking about making the leap? And we’ll say a transition in general, or really anything you want to share to wrap our episode here. Patrick Larkin: Thank you for having me, and this is a great question. Happy to give a thoughtful answer to it. Before I’d left Wells Fargo Advisors through the program and started Oak Hill Wealth Advisors, I had an opportunity to go through a due diligence process and make sure that this was going to be a right move for me. There was no carrot out there that was obvious. I learned after that first conversation that I had built a practice that had some value to it. I was leaving behind the security of something I knew, leaving behind a significant amount in deferred compensation, and I wanted to make sure I was making the right decision. And through that due diligence process, talked to about five other firms that had recently left Wells Fargo to join this RIA program. I asked them a lot of different questions about what their experience was. And at every point during those conversations, they all said the same thing at different points. And it sounded like this. They said, “I’m working harder than I ever have before, but I wish I had done this sooner.” So my advice to those people, do it. I know that sounds simple, but I mean it. The fear of leaving is almost always worse than the actual experience of leaving. And I understand the inertia of not leaving and the real apprehension of what was on the other side. But what I found was a version of this profession I genuinely didn’t know was possible. One where I could do things the right way on my terms for the people I care most about serving. And not every path is going to look like mine. Some advisors should go fully independent and stay there, and that can be an incredible life. But when it comes time to look for a partner, quite frankly, if Cerity Partners is not on your shortlist, you’re making a significant mistake. And I say that not to sell anything, but because I’ve lived the comparison firsthand and there’s simply nothing else like it. Louis Diamond: So Pat, it’s been really fun, but I don’t think we’ve had anyone on the eight years or so we’ve been doing this show that’s gone through this type of arc or journey that you have. One of my big takeaways or sticking points that this episode brought for me is by going independent and taking control over your future, you created complete optionality for yourself to do exactly what you wanted to do with your business, even if that was different than what you initially planned. So in your case, it was selling within three years of going independent, but by taking action, being proactive, playing some offense, you made the opportunity happen on your terms and your timeline. So this has been fun in so many different ways. I loved your comment about how when you went independent, it’s basically like the day of your IPO, the four-to-five-times increase in value versus an internal succession deal, and even just the way to think about getting equity in a larger entity versus running your own plays only. So thank you so much for doing this. This has been fun. Mindy Diamond: As a financial advisor, you hold yourself to the highest standards of integrity, honesty, and credibility. You are successful because you take your professional responsibility seriously and are dedicated to your clients. But are you living your best business life? Are your goals aligned with your firm’s or could a better option exist? Should I Stay or Should I Go? Is a book written with you in mind? It’s a self-guided journey that walks you through the key steps that we take with our advisor clients. This strategic thought process and roadmap to professional self-discovery is designed to help you ask the right questions and think critically and objectively, whether you’re considering change or not. Learn how to get your copy at diamond-consultants.com/thebook. Build, Grow & Transact: From Breakaway to Transaction in 3 Years A conversation with Louis Diamond and Patrick Larkin, Partner & Practice Leader at Cerity Partners. Louis Diamond: Welcome to the latest episode of our podcast series for financial advisors. Today’s episode is Build, Grow & Transact: From Breakaway to Transaction in 3 Years. It’s a conversation with Patrick Larkin, Partner and Practice Leader at Cerity Partners. I’m Louis Diamond, and this is The Diamond Podcast for Financial Advisors. Mindy Diamond: At Diamond Consultants, we help elite advisors identify the right environment for their businesses to thrive, whether that’s at a wirehouse, boutique, or independent firm. With nearly three decades of experience, we’ve guided thousands of advisors and represented more than a quarter of a trillion dollars in assets transitioned. And each year, one in four advisors managing a billion dollars or more who change firms are our clients. Our process is education-driven and based on building relationships, starting as your strategic partner well before you’re even thinking of a move. To schedule a confidential conversation, call us at 908-879-1002. Wondering why advisors change firms and where they’re headed? Are transition deals going up or down? Those very questions and more inspired us to create our annual Advisor Transition Report. It’s the award-winning, data-driven resource designed for advisors that connects the dots between the motivations around movement and the firm’s appetite for top talent. Arm yourself with the knowledge you need to make smart decisions. Download your copy at diamond-consultants.com/transitionreport. Louis Diamond: Ownership as a way of creating opportunities you can’t always predict. That’s exactly why we created our Build, Grow, and Transact series. Independence isn’t the end of the story. It’s often the beginning of thinking differently about enterprise value, optionality, and what comes next. Today’s guest is Patrick Larkin, Partner and Practice Leader at Cerity Partners, and formerly the founder of Oak Hill Wealth Advisors. Patrick spent nearly 15 years building a successful practice at A.G. Edwards, Wachovia, and eventually Wells Fargo before launching his own independent firm in 2022. Just three years later, he merged that firm into Cerity. At first glance, that timeline might seem surprisingly short, but as you’ll hear, the merger wasn’t a change in direction. It was the result of seeing his business differently once he owned it. Yet, it’s this perspective that really brings that thought home. Patrick said the day Oak Hill launched felt like the business had gone public because overnight, what had been viewed as a book of business became an enterprise with substantially greater value, some four to five times the value of what it was worth at Wells. And that realization changed the way he invested, the way he hired, and ultimately the way he thought about the future. Pat and I also talk about something advisors don’t often discuss candidly, what life actually looks like after a merger. How much control do you give up? What changes day to day? How do you know whether you’re joining a partner or simply selling a business? Whether your long-term plan is to remain independent forever or eventually join a larger organization, Patrick’s experience is a reminder that ownership isn’t simply about control. It’s about creating optionality and putting yourself in a position where the next decision is yours to make. So let’s get to it. Patrick, thanks for coming on our show today. Patrick Larkin: Oh, my pleasure. Nice to meet you, Louis. Louis Diamond: You too. So let’s start off basically how we start every interview. Tell us about yourself, your background, and how you found your way into our industry in the first place. Patrick Larkin: Yeah, thank you for asking. I knew I always wanted to be a financial advisor. That part really wasn’t in question, but upon graduating college and being a 22-year-old, I knew that it was probably not practical to walk in and start advising people my parents’ age with their life savings. Probably wasn’t going to be a recipe for success. So I took a quick tour through the pharmaceutical industry first, which ended up being unexpectedly valuable. My employers there pushed me to think like an entrepreneur and within our territories. And honestly, that mindset never left me. It shaped how I built everything that came after. Eventually, an opportunity presented itself in Loudoun County, Virginia in Northern Virginia, and I became an FA trainee with A.G. Edwards, absolutely fantastic firm to start my career. Now, what drew me to this career was pretty simple. I felt like it was one of the professions that we had an opportunity to do so much good for others while simultaneously also doing well for yourself, and those two things aren’t in conflict. I also really loved the idea that in this profession there was no hiding. You don’t get paid to show up. You get paid for what you actually do. And perhaps for me, what was most important, I loved the weight of responsibility. I loved earning people’s trust. I loved the idea of deserving, being deserving of their trust, and being a steward of what they’ve worked a lifetime to build. I never took that lightly, and I still don’t. Louis Diamond: That’s amazing. Yeah, I mean, the number of people I’ve heard, you talked so fondly about A.G. Edwards and there’s a bunch of other firms that have since been absorbed or emerged that are like the regional firms of old. So not surprised to hear you loved it. A.G. Edwards, obviously, became Wells Fargo Advisors or was acquired or merged with Wells Fargo. So I know you’re at Wells and A.G. Edwards until 2022. So give us a quick version. How’d you build your practice from the pharma world into being in FA? Patrick Larkin: Yeah, so as I started with A.G. Edwards, I came in at really just the perfect time. It was towards the end of the financial crisis. And I built the business the old-fashioned way with a lot of cold calling and eventually did some dinner seminars, which I can tell you is a very expensive way to learn how to speak in front of a room. But I made some progress, and I was also in a great office, small enough that some of the advisors there would hand off some of the smaller accounts that they weren’t interested in working with, and got an opportunity to get a lot of reps in working with real life clients and individuals. I knew early on I didn’t have enough talent to win on talent alone, so I made up for it and compensated for that with really hard work. The real turning point came for me when A.G. Edwards was first acquired by Wachovia Securities, and that was about five years into my career. And at that point, my branch manager, who was eyeing retirement, asked me to step in as her partner, and that changed everything. We eventually moved over to a Wachovia Securities office, another really great local office in Loudoun County, Virginia. And from that office, I worked on and became a CIMA, a CFP, worked with the clients, built a business through referrals. And I found at that point in my career when I would go to a meeting with Wachovia, eventually Wells Fargo, as a young 30-year-old, I would look around the room often and realize that I was the youngest person in the room. The funny thing was 10 years later, I would go into that same room and I’d look around and I still was the youngest guy in that room. And those demographics in our industry, and when I came into our industry, ultimately led that office that I worked in with Wells Fargo Advisors, I eventually was the recipient and party to five different succession plans- Louis Diamond: Wow. Patrick Larkin: … at Wells Fargo Advisors. I hoped that I had built a reputation as somebody that these other advisors would entrust with their clients. And over that time period, really, I would say professionally, one of my accomplishments I’m most proud of is all five of those retired advisors that I used to work with, who had an opportunity to see me work with clients, all became clients of mine, I still continue to work with. And it’s professionally just one of the greatest honors that I’ve ever had. Louis Diamond: I mean, that’s a large number of advisors you helped sunset, but I would agree it’s the ultimate proof of concept that they not only trusted you with their clients and their life’s work, but now also with their family’s wealth. So I like that, kind of the full life cycle there. So I’m curious, though, you stayed at Wells through a really turbulent time through the fake bank scandal. There’s a lot of attrition. I mean, obviously, they’re still a powerhouse to this day, but what kept you at Wells for as long as it did before you left in 2022? Patrick Larkin: You described it as a turbulent time. Pretty turbulent might be an understatement. Even before Wells, the transition to Wells, Wachovia Bank had been the first company that we transitioned to from A.G. Edwards. And we, of course, went through the financial crisis during that time period and handholding our clients and helping them get through that time period and dealing with concerns that we shouldn’t really have to be prepared with. “Is my money safe? It’s not what’s happening to the market, but is my money safe in your institution?” But once things stabilized, I found real purpose in partnering with some of the retiring advisors and opportunities that came up. It was a really wonderful climate and atmosphere in our local office. It was really a family-like atmosphere, and I still had a lot to learn. And all those advisors that I partnered with, I’ve joked I’ve never had an original idea in my entire life. I stole all my good ideas from them. And some of them were really ahead of their time, and I learned, adopted, and built my own philosophies by working closely with them. Ultimately, by the time I left Wells Fargo, I was finishing up the fifth sunset program and had only made my way halfway through the sunset before the opportunity presented itself to create my own practice. Louis Diamond: So I’m curious, when did you first seriously start thinking about leaving and what really tipped the scales for you? What was the proverbial straw that broke the camel’s back? Patrick Larkin: Yeah, it really was a number of small items and ultimately one big one. But for a long time, I’d been content, but as I tried to grow the business beyond what I could do individually, I felt like I kept running into walls. There were it felt like limitations on how I could build out my team and structure the practice the way I envisioned it. Additionally, there were some new policies that also started to bother me. One of them was the platform advisory fee, which in my eyes was less about client transparency and more about replacing a declining revenue source on the firm’s balance sheet. And after dealing with clients and helping them through the bank scandal at the firm, I was concerned that this would come back and hurt me and the relationships that I had with my clients. Incidentally, I just recently onboarded a new client that transferred to us. And for them, looking at their statement, identifying this platform advisory fee- Louis Diamond: Oh boy. Patrick Larkin: … was the last straw for them before they moved about 15 million of assets to us. Also, I thought I would be I would be a better allocator of resources than Wells Fargo. Wells Fargo retained about half of the revenue that I earned for the business. They seemed to think that the best allocation of that money was additional middle management. Whereas, I thought investment in technology, investment in additional personnel, and an investment in marketing were best places to continue to build out my vision. The final straw, and really a thing that crystallized everything for me was when I read a book in 2021 called The Infinite Game, a book written by Simon Sinek. Chapter eight, the title is Ethical Fading. And it uses the Wells Fargo bank scandal as a case study in what happens when a firm loses its moral compass. I read the chapter and thought, “There it is, I have to do something.” That was really the final push I needed. I mentioned earlier I was very fortunate to start my career with a company called A.G. Edwards, a regional brokerage firm. And while I was at A.G. Edwards, there was a research report that came out on A.G. Edwards as a company. And I’m going to paraphrase a little bit on what was said in that report, but ultimately there was a line in there, and it was a criticism, but I took it as a huge positive as being an employee there. The line said, “While management does not necessarily say it, we believe the client is put ahead of the shareholder.” And that was something I was very proud of. And I just, upon reflecting on it, felt confident those were words that I never was going to see go to print about Wells Fargo. Louis Diamond: So you left Wells in 2022 and founded Oak Hill Wealth Partners in Lansdowne, Virginia. Walk us through that decision. Why go independent rather than going to another firm? Patrick Larkin: I really thought moving to another firm, the things that I had grown frustrated with at Wells Fargo Advisors, I would also find at another wirehouse firm. I was ready, and honestly, the simple answer is I thought I could do better. And I wanted control after having what I felt like was very little control. I had grown frustrated with others making important decisions, and I wanted an opportunity to grab the reins and make decisions on my own. I believe at that time, the future of wealth management was going to be built around fiduciary advice, and I didn’t want to watch that from the sidelines anymore. I was watching what was happening in the industry. And as we were trying to hire new advisors, reaching out to college graduates who were studying CFP programs, identified that they were more inclined to want to start employment with an RIA than a wirehouse. What made the timing work really well was Wells Fargo had actually introduced a program to help advisors in the private client group spin off and establish their own RIAs. Now, whenever I tell this to another advisor, particularly ones that are wirehouses, they can’t understand it. And quite frankly, I don’t understand why they helped us do it, but we were about the 30th practice that they helped us through this process and they provided real support. They hired consultants, made vendor recommendations, even referrals to financing so I could pay off my last succession plan before I left. The only really upside for Wells Fargo was that the ask was that we continue to use First Clearing as the custodian. And one of the downsides for me was I was going to leave all of my deferred comp behind with Wells Fargo. Now, all clients had to do to join me was sign a positive consent. And on May 9th, 2020, we turned on our computers in our new office and our clients were already there. That same day, we launched and started a relationship with Charles Schwab. And it was so exciting to be able to start shopping for what I thought was the best FinTech, really feeling like I was stuck with proprietary tools that Wells Fargo advisors had offered. I felt like I was a kid in a candy store. And if there was a cool tool that I identified that would help us serve our clients better, I was all in and I was buying it. I really feel that some of the technology that Oak Hill eventually bought into and some of the tools we’re using now are going to take years and years before they eventually trickle down to where the wirehouses are, if ever. Louis Diamond: Interesting. So it was really it was for the most part an internal move from one- Patrick Larkin: It was- Louis Diamond: … channel to the other. Patrick Larkin: … it was an internal move, but there was no requirement to stay at First Clearing. As a fiduciary, they couldn’t make those demands. And again, they helped us with the financing, which is really unusual that they helped us secure a loan so I could pay off the last retiring advisor. It’s really unusual that a bank will loan money where there is no business at the time, but because of previous experience that financial institution had working with Wells, they helped us facilitate the transaction. And the program is still in place at Wells Fargo, which is absolutely amazing to me after the experience that I’ve just had myself. Louis Diamond: Yeah, it’s interesting. I mean, does it cannibalize a more profitable revenue source? Sure. But if the alternative was all the assets go to Schwab or Fidelity, to me, honestly, it’s smart. I think they played the long game by not being adversarial on it. Patrick Larkin: I think they played a long game and they took the philosophy, and I think they use it as a recruiting tool that if you love them, set them free. And that’s exactly what they did. Louis Diamond: So for the rest of the episode, I want to talk about your eventual, and not that long period of time, transaction or decision to merge Oak Hill with Cerity Partners. This is our Build, Grow, Transact subseries. And I was really struck by your story because you were three years or so into running Oak Hill, and then your merger with Cerity Partners, an amazing RIA closed. That’s a fairly short runway. Usually when I see folks go independent for the first time, it’s 10, 15, 20 years, maybe never, that they decide to merge or sell. I’m curious to understand your thinking about the transaction. Were you looking to do something? Or was it just like right place, right time and the opportunity presented itself? Patrick Larkin: I had started Oak Hill with the intent of eventually down the road, much closer to retirement, looking for a partner. The opportunity and what I learned early on helped change that idea and philosophy, and I adapted and made modifications to take advantage of it. Louis Diamond: Interesting. So you weren’t necessarily planning on selling or merging the business, it just kind of circumstances happened the way they did? Patrick Larkin: Yeah. When we started Oak Hill Wealth Advisors, it was a really pretty short period of time before we started getting calls from larger national RIAs about potential acquisition, much sooner than I expected. Early on, I just brushed them off, but about a year in, I took one of those calls and it really just opened my eyes up. I realized for the first time this small firm, this little practice actually had some real value, way more than I’d given it credit for. That first call, that first exploration didn’t go anywhere. It wasn’t a good fit. But what it gave me was a much clearer picture of what the serious acquirers were actually looking for. And that changed decisions I made at Oak Hill going forward. I really at that point stopped trying to optimize for near-term profit and really thought of my business as a business and started building towards enterprise value, sometimes at the cost of short-term income. And that turned out to be exactly the right call. Louis Diamond: That’s such an interesting perspective. Let’s double-click into that concept. So it sounds almost counterintuitive that if you kind of had this light bulb moment that like, “Okay, maybe I want to transact my business sooner than I initially thought.” I think most people would say, “Let’s become lean and mean. Let’s become as profitable as possible so my EBITDA’s higher.” But you took the different approach. What were the decisions you did to invest more in enterprise value rather than current cash flow? Patrick Larkin: A true business is one that doesn’t need me to be here every day to operate. And when we left Wells Fargo Advisors, it was myself and one other advisor that created Oak Hill Wealth Advisors. I was responsible for about 95% of the assets and revenue. And one of the more significant investments we made is in additional advisors. I recruited three new advisors, all CFPs, to join Oak Hill Wealth Advisors. Whereas, before I had been largely managing all the relationships myself. For someone that kind of grew up in the regional wirehouse space, it’s pretty counterintuitive to start moving relationships away from you onto other advisors. You’re trained and built to create a moat around your relationships, and realized that the potential acquirers are not interested, at least the ones I was interested in, weren’t interested in buying a book. They were interested in buying a business. And that just meant every decision we made going forward was not profit-driven, but how can I increase the value of the business? So after that first call, I knew I probably would be looking to move forward with a transaction sooner as opposed to the end of retirement. That information that I got on that first call helped me realize that when Oak Hill Wealth Advisors opened its doors on May 9th, 2022, we effectively had an IPO. I had great familiarity with how the succession plans at Wells Fargo Advisors worked. And on that day that we opened our practice, the value of my business jumped to be four to five times the value of it in a succession plan at Wells Fargo Advisors. Now, I knew going forward that I was going to be able to increase revenue. I was going to be able to increase EBITDA. I was going to potentially have some benefits from a market tailwind. I knew the multiples of EBITDA that the firms use may fluctuate, but the biggest change by far occurred leaving the wirehouse and having the value of my business grow four to fivefold in that same day. So what I really focused on was making sure that I was going to, when I was ready to start looking again after I had worked on improving the practice, really was going to look for a firm that was going to be a good cultural fit for both my clients, my team, and myself. Louis Diamond: That’s such a cool perspective. I’ve never heard anyone say that the day we launched your independent business was like an IPO. But honestly, it’s so true. You’re planting a flag in the ground that like, “Here is real value. This is value that we’ve created that we own rather than it being a book of business and a W-2 paycheck.” And it’s a fascinating perspective. Patrick Larkin: Yep. It really is amazing that the value changed that much on one day and the future value changes. Looking at the equity that I owned in Oak Hill Wealth Advisors, it made sense to consider is there a better way to take some risk off the table for myself and my family and diversify some of the equity that I had in Oak Hill Wealth Advisors with a larger enterprise? Louis Diamond: It makes complete sense. Obviously, everyone would sign up for 4 to 5X increase in value. Patrick Larkin: Sure. Louis Diamond: That’s not the reason most people go independent, but it’s important to know. And also, what I really liked about what you shared is I think a really valuable learning for anyone is those calls come in, whether it’s from annoying people like me or from an acquirer, from a firm, they’re not all noise. You took it as an opportunity to learn. Even though that first person who called wasn’t the right fit, it crystallized something in your mind and it let you make proactive decisions that ultimately paid off in spades when it came time to sign the dotted line for your transaction with Cerity. So I think it’s brilliant. And it’s very big picture, big-business-owner-type stuff that I think a lot of people will just filter out because it’s annoying and I’m young, I’m not looking to sell, but that was the journey. Patrick Larkin: Yeah, that first call changed my opinion about timing of when to move forward with a partnership. Originally, I thought this would be something at the end of retirement. The timing of doing so sooner seemed a lot more appealing after having that conversation and realizing what we had actually built. Louis Diamond: Amazing. So ultimately you decided to merge with Cerity Partners. We’ve had Kurt Miscinski from Cerity Partners on the show. They’re a real heavyweight within the RIA world. Most recently, they were valued at $8 billion in a recap, and it’s a very impressive firm. What specifically drew you to Cerity versus other potential buyers? Like you said, you got a lot of calls. Patrick Larkin: After that first call, I just got to work and focused on continuing to take care of our clients, building a team, adding new advisors, being a mentor to those advisors. But at the same time, we were being approached fairly regularly by that point. And I had a pretty good system for quickly deciding whether something was worth a second look, and most weren’t. But about a year ago, one of the national RIAs caught my attention and I started having conversations with them. And once I had progressed with them, I though, “You know what? If I’m giving this consideration, I really need to cast a wider net.” So I reached out to other RIAs that I had looked at and admired and been keeping an eye on. And ultimately, my longtime business coach, Barbara Kay, suggested I talk with Cerity Partners, a company that one of her other clients had just recently joined. And from the very first call, I could tell something was different. And I talked to many different companies. Cerity Partners, and an individual I spoke with, Geoff Newman, they weren’t leading with valuation formulas or deal structure. They were asking questions about my clients, my team, and how I actually ran the practice. They had a very defined process for identifying partners who were genuinely compatible, not just advisors with books that were transferable. And that distinction mattered greatly to me. They also offered really, in my opinion, the right balance of support and still having some autonomy. And their aspiration to deliver consistent standard of care to clients, whether they be in California or Virginia, so that those individuals get the same quality of experience, resonated with how I was already running things within my practice. That combination of support and autonomy, I really liked the idea of continuing to have oversight over my local practice, over our practice, which included the budget, salaries, and bonuses. It more than anybody else felt like a partnership and not a buyout. And I really appreciate it during that first call, Cerity was the only company that talked about a hundred-year plan. It was amazing to me to hear what their thoughts were. Most of the other firms I spoke with talked about valuations. And very quickly in the process, I found myself on a Zoom call with a Patagonia fleece vest-wearing private equity rep walking me through a valuation. And it was efficient, but it was not a cultural fit for me. And the infrastructure behind us and the combination of autonomy is really harder to find than most people think. As I progressed with Cerity, I remember early on in the process thinking to myself, “My God, I hope they want me, I hope they want me,” because I could tell I’m a very process-driven person They had a process with the way they brought me on board. And ultimately, we had a due diligence trip set up to go to one of their larger offices where I met with one of their leaders, Claire O’Keefe, part of their practice development, and had an opportunity to meet with different leaders within the firm and really get my arms wrapped around the potential that they had. Just the quality of the people I encountered through the whole process just kept reinforcing the decision. And by the time we got to the finish line, it didn’t feel like a transaction. It felt like I was joining something that I was excited to be part of. So just a little bit more about what attracted me to Cerity, their culture is just phenomenal. Cerity Partners uses the word “meritocracy” and they actually mean it. Ownership and influence here track your contribution, not your tenure or how well you play the politics. I just attended my first partner meeting in April, and without exaggeration, it was the most extraordinary professional meeting I’ve attended in my 25-year career. During the meeting, there was open debate about the direction of the firm, and every voice in the room carried weight. You could feel the culture. And that type of culture is built over years. You can’t fake it. Everyone in the room it felt like was rowing in the same direction. And by the time the meeting was over, I was so excited to get back to my team and tell them about what I had just witnessed, I wasn’t looking for the exit. I was looking for the brick wall to run through. I was so excited. And every once in a while I wonder having spent so much time in the wirehouse spaces, the bar just set really low for me when I talked to some of my other colleagues that have been independent for a long time. But it was just an absolutely amazing experience. And I do want to just add, one of the last really important things to me about Cerity Partners is I’ve been very fortunate with my career and in this profession. And part of my goal over the rest of my career is to have a legacy. And my legacy currently exists with the families I’ve advised and the team that I’ve built and have served and led. But Cerity Partners is helping me achieve even a greater legacy in our industry with our shared long-term goals. During my first meeting, they talked about their hundred-year vision of being a worldwide employee-owned professional services firm. And currently, and this is very exciting, the employees are the largest shareholder of the firm. No one else I talked to talked about their long-term goals like this, and it’s a vision I believe in. I want to contribute to help to see it accomplished. And one day when I do retire, I want to look back and see how I contribute it to a company that I believe is going to change the direction of professional wealth management. Louis Diamond: Wow. Patrick Larkin: My partnership with Cerity Partners is going to make that a reality. It’s just an amazing place. Yeah, very happy. Louis Diamond: Honestly, you can’t fake that type of enthusiasm. It sounds like- Patrick Larkin: It’s not- Louis Diamond: … you entered into a transaction, which is it’s like jumping into the deep end. How do you sort through what’s the sales process versus what’s real? How much of this is actually going to translate to my life? But hearing you not that long after the transaction, you still feel that and it’s very cool. In the press release I read, you cited estate planning, private markets access, and cross-border planning as key reasons for the merger. Can you talk about what it was about those? Maybe- Patrick Larkin: Yeah. Louis Diamond: … anything else that was missed? Patrick Larkin: Yeah. Louis Diamond: And were those not things that you felt like you could have delivered yourself as a standalone? Patrick Larkin: I thought that they were going to help me be able to be more effective in delivering those, but they weren’t the complete picture. The capabilities that we cited in the release were genuine gaps I wanted to fill and have available for clients and be able to prospect and go after new additional clients. But being fully honest, there were also deeper drivers. One was my team. Sometimes we get emotional about this. Being someone who’s trusted is really important to me, and that’s something I hold in high priority. There are people that followed me out of Wells Fargo to join me. One of my client associates had delayed her retirement so that she could join me and help us launch for the first three months. One of my other client associates has been with me close to 15 years. These are people that trusted me to do the right thing and to make sure that I wasn’t walking them off the plank. Being able to join Cerity Partners and give them a future that didn’t hinge entirely on my personal longevity was a huge relief. And Cerity Partners is an ownership culture. I’m so happy to say today that every single individual on my team in our practice in Lansdowne is now either an equity owner in Cerity Partners or very shortly will be an equity- Louis Diamond: So cool. Patrick Larkin: … equity owner. So they have a stake as well in what they’re building. It matters. My youngest client associate noticed how much it costs to send to FedEx. And he goes, “Now that I’m an owner, maybe we should rethink about sending regular mail.” Another driver was my family. And I’ve always had the philosophy of trying to prioritize and clients first, team and colleagues, and then my family. And I’ve always made decisions that if I put those others before myself, eventually I’ll be taken care of. And going through this transaction, it was so generous to my family and provided such security. There was a little bit of guilt that, “Am I doing this for all the right reasons?” But being able to secure my family’s future, converting equity in a three-year-old RIA into a stake of a $8 billion-plus valuation with institutional backing, that was a meaningful moment and I’d be less than honest if I glossed over that. I also really wanted to be part of something larger than myself. And the opportunity to help build a legacy in this business with Cerity Partners really gives me the platform to do that. Louis Diamond: Very cool. I can tell that you’re genuine, not just because of the way you sound, the way you’re speaking, but in the very beginning of the episode, you talked about the reason you got into this business was because you thought it gave you the dual purpose of being able to help people, but also being able to enrich yourself or your family. So this answer, it comes full circle. You’re able to accomplish all these goals, which made it the right decision. And I think, look, I say to advisors all the time, “You’re allowed to be greedy, you’re allowed to be selfish as long as the clients are still in the front of your mind as the most important thing.” There’s nothing wrong with doing better for clients, building a legacy in your case, but also reaping the rewards of all your hard work and labor and also all the risks that you’ve taken over your career. I got to ask you, though, from being an employee of Wells, where you were running your team, for the most part, you can run the business within their guardrails the way you want, to then running an RIA, which is really like you’re fully in control of everything, to now being a partner, but you’re not the one who has the name on the door anymore. Patrick Larkin: Right, right. Louis Diamond: Well, how do you think about the giving up control and full ownership of your practice versus owning a very small amount of a much larger entity? Patrick Larkin: There was such continuity. Oak Hill Wealth Advisors and Cerity Partners were so philosophically aligned that I genuinely never felt like I was giving up anything that I wasn’t glad to let go. My wife joined the business shortly before I left Wells Fargo Advisors. And still to this day, on my drive home from work, I call her up and say, “You’re not going to believe this.” And it’s all a positive, good thing. So Cerity has struck the perfect balance of that autonomy and support combination that I was looking for. So I still have control and a say over the way our practice is managed. Very shortly after the merger, my supervisor came down and met me for the first time, and we went out together after the day had ended. And early in the conversation I said to him, “What can I do to make your life easier?” And he said, “Pat, what can I do to make your life easier?” And that set the tone that still exists to this day. I almost cried when he said that because that was so different than what I had experienced up to that point. So the collaboration, the way we work together, it’s just absolutely amazing. And not once for a single moment have I second-guessed my decision. And it’s really weird because I’ve now been part of this organization for nearly nine months, and there just has not been one thing that’s occurred where I said, “That’s a disappointment.” It’s just been absolutely amazing every single day. Louis Diamond: Very cool. To me, there’s different arcs of when you want to ask people the question of, “Hey, any regrets?” And usually you don’t want to ask them too soon because they’re still going through the transition and integration and growing pains. And you don’t want to ask them too far in the future because you forget about what was life before. To be this short of a duration into this new partnership and to have these feelings, that’s absolutely pretty special. I got two more questions for you, Pat, if you don’t mind. Patrick Larkin: Sure. Louis Diamond: First one, economically, to me, one of the hardest things for really any advisor to really grapple with or to fully comprehend or make their own is, “I own 100% of the equity in my business. I get to decide when I want to sell in the future. My business is growing 10% per year. I wait to sell until 10 years from now, my business is going to be much bigger and I get to keep all the cash flow. I get to make all the decisions.” That compared to the path that you took, which was take cash off the table, which everyone understands, to, “Now, I own a much smaller piece of a much larger pie.” How would you talk to someone about the financial trade-off between a hundred percent ownership in their business, full control, full discretion over everything, versus becoming a minority equity partner in a larger entity? Patrick Larkin: You have to look at the valuation of my business, again, the day that we opened our doors as Oak Hill Wealth Advisors. There was such a massive jump in the value of the business. There was not going to be an opportunity for an appreciation at that level. So then, you have to compare what the growth rate is of Oak Hill Wealth Advisors versus a Cerity Partners. And I’m not embarrassed to say that Cerity Partners is and has been growing at a much faster rate of return. The value of the equity that I have retained in Cerity Partners, my ownership stake, I fully expect by the time I transact that business as I get closer to retirement, that’s going to be worth many times more than whatever opportunity I would have had at Wells Fargo with the valuation they would have provided me. Nevermind, very important, the tax consequences of a structure like this is all the retiring advisors that I worked with were taxed at their highest marginal rate. I owned a business and we were taxed at long-term capital gains rates. A significant difference in savings in what as the owner we actually realize. So yeah, I feel very comfortable with the ownership that I have and the control and continued opportunity with the meritocracy culture to increase my share of ownership in the company. Louis Diamond: Okay, and let’s do one more question here. I’ll pick it back up. So Pat, I think it’s a really cool perspective. It’s almost do your homework, and if you find the right horse and the right jockey that can run faster than you can on your own, that the equity value will compound and grow and appreciate in a faster, more efficient way than what you’re doing on your own, which makes complete sense. It’s the ultimate trade-off. And again, it’s like jumping into the deep end. On the one hand, Oak Hill was all you, right? You control the growth, for better or worse, for the good days, the bad days, the good years, the bad years, versus now your growth is diversified amongst hundreds of partners across M&A, across different lead flow channels, et cetera. It makes complete sense. But honestly, if I were an advisor, I don’t know how I would think about it. I think it’s all just fact-and-circumstance-based on where I am in my life and who the firm is and what I’m trying to accomplish. But it’s such a cool perspective because usually the playbook that we see, which is why we did this series, is go independent and there’s a long pause until there is a realization of all the value that’s been created. So seeing you do this in a much quicker timeframe, it seems like it was the absolutely right decision. To me, it just is another path, another way that an advisor or a firm is able to think about their future. Any final advice or parting words for someone who is sitting right where you were in 2021 or 2022 thinking about making the leap? And we’ll say a transition in general, or really anything you want to share to wrap our episode here. Patrick Larkin: Thank you for having me, and this is a great question. Happy to give a thoughtful answer to it. Before I’d left Wells Fargo Advisors through the program and started Oak Hill Wealth Advisors, I had an opportunity to go through a due diligence process and make sure that this was going to be a right move for me. There was no carrot out there that was obvious. I learned after that first conversation that I had built a practice that had some value to it. I was leaving behind the security of something I knew, leaving behind a significant amount in deferred compensation, and I wanted to make sure I was making the right decision. And through that due diligence process, talked to about five other firms that had recently left Wells Fargo to join this RIA program. I asked them a lot of different questions about what their experience was. And at every point during those conversations, they all said the same thing at different points. And it sounded like this. They said, “I’m working harder than I ever have before, but I wish I had done this sooner.” So my advice to those people, do it. I know that sounds simple, but I mean it. The fear of leaving is almost always worse than the actual experience of leaving. And I understand the inertia of not leaving and the real apprehension of what was on the other side. But what I found was a version of this profession I genuinely didn’t know was possible. One where I could do things the right way on my terms for the people I care most about serving. And not every path is going to look like mine. Some advisors should go fully independent and stay there, and that can be an incredible life. But when it comes time to look for a partner, quite frankly, if Cerity Partners is not on your shortlist, you’re making a significant mistake. And I say that not to sell anything, but because I’ve lived the comparison firsthand and there’s simply nothing else like it. Louis Diamond: So Pat, it’s been really fun, but I don’t think we’ve had anyone on the eight years or so we’ve been doing this show that’s gone through this type of arc or journey that you have. One of my big takeaways or sticking points that this episode brought for me is by going independent and taking control over your future, you created complete optionality for yourself to do exactly what you wanted to do with your business, even if that was different than what you initially planned. So in your case, it was selling within three years of going independent, but by taking action, being proactive, playing some offense, you made the opportunity happen on your terms and your timeline. So this has been fun in so many different ways. I loved your comment about how when you went independent, it’s basically like the day of your IPO, the four-to-five-times increase in value versus an internal succession deal, and even just the way to think about getting equity in a larger entity versus running your own plays only. So thank you so much for doing this. This has been fun. Mindy Diamond: As a financial advisor, you hold yourself to the highest standards of integrity, honesty, and credibility. You are successful because you take your professional responsibility seriously and are dedicated to your clients. But are you living your best business life? Are your goals aligned with your firm’s or could a better option exist? Should I Stay or Should I Go? Is a book written with you in mind? It’s a self-guided journey that walks you through the key steps that we take with our advisor clients. This strategic thought process and roadmap to professional self-discovery is designed to help you ask the right questions and think critically and objectively, whether you’re considering change or not. Learn how to get your copy at diamond-consultants.com/thebook.

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  2. Number 2: Build, Grow & Transact: Making the Leap from Northwestern Mutual to a $20B Enterprise

    Andy Schwartz CEO, OnePoint BFG Wealth Partners | Kevin Spahn Founder, Spahn Financial (now OnePoint BFG) Two former Northwestern Mutual advisors, two very different paths. Andy Schwartz and Kevin Spahn share what it takes to build, grow, merge, and create lasting enterprise value. In Summary What separates a successful advisory practice from an enterprise with the ability to grow well beyond its founders? Andy Schwartz and Kevin Spahn offer two different perspectives on that question. Both spent decades at Northwestern Mutual, but their paths eventually diverged. Andy left to help build what is now OnePoint BFG Wealth Partners, an $18B+ firm expected to surpass $20B by year-end. Kevin built one of Northwestern Mutual’s top practices before deciding to merge his business into OnePoint and become an equity partner. Louis talks with Andy and Kevin about the decisions behind both journeys: creating a true firm rather than an aggregation of practices, transitioning advisors from 1099 to W-2, using outside capital without relinquishing control, rethinking succession, and determining when equity in a larger enterprise can offer greater opportunity than continuing to build alone. Underlying it all is a factor that’s much harder to quantify: trust. The Storyline Andy Schwartz and Kevin Spahn have known each other for roughly 30 years. They met while both were building careers at Northwestern Mutual, where Andy became an important mentor to Kevin as Kevin transitioned from practicing law and estate planning into wealth management. After roughly 30 years at Northwestern Mutual, Andy and his partners left in 2015 with approximately $3B in assets to launch independently. What began as Bleakley Financial eventually became OnePoint BFG Wealth Partners, an $18B+ enterprise that Andy expects will surpass $20B by the end of 2026. That kind of growth required more than attracting assets. Andy describes the evolution from a predominantly 1099 structure into a firm where more than 85% of advisors and AUM are now W-2. The shift created a more cohesive enterprise, gave advisors access to equity, and ultimately positioned OnePoint to bring in minority capital from Joe Duran’s Rise Growth Partners. Andy makes an important distinction about that relationship: OnePoint is “private equity invested,” not “private equity owned.” The structure gave the firm capital and expertise while allowing its partners to retain control. Kevin faced a different decision. After more than 30 years at Northwestern Mutual, his practice had grown to 18 people and approximately $2B in assets. He was happy at the firm, but his clients had evolved, his business had become increasingly complex, and the internal succession plan he once envisioned carried risks he could no longer ignore. He could have built an independent firm himself. Instead, he chose to merge with OnePoint. The decision wasn’t driven by the largest possible check. Kevin saw the opportunity to become an equity partner in a larger enterprise, give his team and clients a more durable future, and leverage infrastructure he didn’t want to recreate himself. For both men, the story ultimately comes back to the same principle: The right economics matter, but sustainable partnerships require trust, shared philosophy, and the belief that everyone involved can create more value together than separately. Topics Covered Building an enterprise versus building a practice Northwestern Mutual and the path to independence OnePoint BFG Wealth Partners’ growth from ~$3B to $18B+ Organic growth versus M&A Creating a growth-oriented advisor culture Moving from a 1099 model to a predominantly W-2 structure Equity ownership and advisor alignment Minority private equity investment Rise Growth Partners and Joe Duran Internal succession versus an external merger Selling versus merging an advisory business Merging versus teaming versus going it alone Evaluating equity versus cash in a transaction The economics of leaving a captive firm Centralization versus advisor autonomy Trust as a factor in partnerships and transactions > Download a transcript of this episode… Listen and Learn Highlights for Advisors How did Andy and Kevin’s 30-year relationship ultimately lead to a transaction? (04:11)Kevin explains how Andy helped him transition from attorney and estate planner into wealth management, beginning a professional relationship that would eventually make their partnership possible decades later. Why did Andy leave Northwestern Mutual after roughly 30 years? (08:45)Andy describes wanting greater flexibility, a multi-custodial platform, and more optionality for clients and the business—a decision that ultimately led to the creation of OnePoint BFG. Why did Kevin decide his longtime Northwestern Mutual practice needed something different? (15:49)Kevin explains how his clients, service needs, and business evolved over time, while concerns about his original internal succession plan led him to consider a different path. What has driven OnePoint’s growth from approximately $3B to $18B+? (21:41)Andy outlines the firm’s emphasis on client experience, advisor experience, organic growth, and carefully selected inorganic growth—and why helping advisors grow is fundamental to the model. Why does Andy say OnePoint is a firm rather than an aggregator? (23:54)The distinction comes down to alignment, shared responsibility, centralized resources, equity, and a partnership structure in which advisors are accountable to one another. How did OnePoint convert a predominantly 1099 advisor base into a W-2 enterprise? (29:26)Andy explains why capital and equity became necessary to build the next stage of the business and why trust was essential to bringing advisors into a more integrated structure. Why did OnePoint choose minority private equity investment? (33:13)Andy shares why Rise Growth Partners offered something previous potential buyers had not: a structure designed to benefit the broader advisor partnership while preserving control. Why did Kevin merge with OnePoint rather than shop his practice broadly? (36:43)For Kevin, maximizing price wasn’t the objective. His decision centered on trust in Andy, confidence in OnePoint’s infrastructure, and creating a strong future for clients and employees. Why did Kevin choose equity in the larger firm instead of simply cashing out? (40:57)Kevin explains why he believes participating in the future growth of a larger enterprise offers a compelling alternative to relying solely on the future growth of his own practice. How should advisors evaluate the “golden handcuffs” that can make leaving difficult? (46:42)Andy argues that the analysis needs to compare what an advisor gives up with the potential growth, economics, equity, and leverage available on the other side. How much conformity does a true enterprise require? (49:06)Andy explains why OnePoint sits somewhere between complete advisor autonomy and complete centralization, seeking enough consistency to create enterprise value without eliminating entrepreneurial flexibility. What would Andy and Kevin tell their younger selves? (52:06)Kevin emphasizes surrounding yourself with the best people possible, while Andy reflects on having the courage to make a difficult change after a successful 30-year run. Key Takeaways Building enterprise value requires more than asset growth. OnePoint’s evolution included changing its ownership structure, integrating advisor practices, creating equity opportunities, and investing in centralized capabilities. Organic growth remains central even in an M&A-driven market. OnePoint targets approximately 10% organic growth and evaluates prospective partners partly on whether they are growth-oriented and whether the firm can meaningfully help them grow. A collection of successful advisors does not automatically make a firm. Andy sees shared ownership, alignment, accountability, infrastructure, and centralized services as critical distinctions between an enterprise and an aggregator. Outside capital does not have to mean giving up control. OnePoint chose a minority investment from Rise Growth Partners that provided capital and strategic support while leaving control with its operating partners. Succession can expose risks that growth may obscure. Kevin began reconsidering his internal succession strategy when he recognized its dependence on his continued production, key employees, and the future economics of an aging client base. The highest purchase price isn’t always the most valuable transaction. Kevin prioritized equity participation, infrastructure, continuity for his employees and clients, and confidence in his future partners over broadly shopping his business for the highest bid. Trust can determine whether structural change is possible. From OnePoint’s 1099-to-W-2 conversion to Kevin’s decision to merge, both guests repeatedly point to established trust as the foundation that allowed significant business decisions to happen. https://youtu.be/jkIoynpZj6Y Quotable Moments “The biggest mistake advisors make is they buy their own bullshit.”— Andy Schwartz “We’re not an aggregator, we’re a firm.”— Andy Schwartz “The biggest issue is trust. Either they trust you or they don’t.”— Andy Schwartz “I wasn’t looking to sell my business. I was looking to merge it.”— Kevin Spahn “You have to trust them. You have to see that they provide value. And you need to be on the same page philosophically.”— Kevin Spahn “Associate yourselves with the best people you can… It accelerates your trajectory in ways that you can’t do on your own.”— Kevin Spahn FAQs Why did Andy Schwartz leave Northwestern Mutual? After approximately 30 years at Northwestern Mutual, Andy and his partners wanted greater flexibility, the ability to operate on a multi-custodial basis, and more optionality for clients and the business. They left in 2015 with approximately $3B in assets and launched the independent firm that ultimately became OnePoint BFG Wealth Partners. How large is OnePoint BFG Wealth Partners? At the time of the interview, Andy says OnePoint manages more than $18B and expects to exceed $20B by the end of 2026, even without additional organic growth. What has driven OnePoint’s growth? Andy points to three priorities: client experience, advisor experience, and growth. The firm targets approximately 10% organic growth while also expanding through acquisitions and partnerships with advisors it believes fit the OnePoint model. Why did OnePoint move advisors from 1099 to W-2? The firm wanted to evolve from a platform supporting individual practices into a more integrated enterprise. That required creating firm-level economics and equity that could be used to attract, retain, and align advisors. Today, Andy says more than 85% of OnePoint’s advisors and AUM are W-2. What does “private equity invested, not private equity owned” mean? Rise Growth Partners holds a minority, non-controlling interest in OnePoint. The investment provides capital, expertise, and strategic support while the operating partners retain majority ownership and control of the business. Why did Kevin Spahn leave Northwestern Mutual? Kevin says he remained happy at Northwestern Mutual, but his practice and clients had evolved. His work had shifted increasingly toward investments and complex high-net-worth planning, while he also began identifying risks in his intended internal succession plan. Why did Kevin merge with OnePoint rather than launch his own independent RIA? OnePoint already had the infrastructure, people, and capabilities Kevin would have needed to build himself. The merger allowed him to focus on clients while becoming an equity partner in a larger enterprise he believed could grow faster than his standalone practice. Why didn’t Kevin shop his practice to multiple buyers? Kevin says his decision was driven primarily by trust. He had known Andy and other OnePoint partners for decades and believed the firm offered the right future for his clients and employees. His choice ultimately came down to staying at Northwestern Mutual or joining OnePoint. How do Andy and Kevin suggest advisors evaluate a potential partner? Their discussion points to three fundamental considerations: trust, demonstrable value, and philosophical alignment. Economics matter, but both argue that a sustainable partnership depends on confidence in the people and business on the other side of the transaction. After approximately 30 years at Northwestern Mutual, Andy and his partners wanted greater flexibility, the ability to operate on a multi-custodial basis, and more optionality for clients and the business. They left in 2015 with approximately $3B in assets and launched the independent firm that ultimately became OnePoint BFG Wealth Partners. At the time of the interview, Andy says OnePoint manages more than $18B and expects to exceed $20B by the end of 2026, even without additional organic growth. Andy points to three priorities: client experience, advisor experience, and growth. The firm targets approximately 10% organic growth while also expanding through acquisitions and partnerships with advisors it believes fit the OnePoint model. The firm wanted to evolve from a platform supporting individual practices into a more integrated enterprise. That required creating firm-level economics and equity that could be used to attract, retain, and align advisors. Today, Andy says more than 85% of OnePoint’s advisors and AUM are W-2. Rise Growth Partners holds a minority, non-controlling interest in OnePoint. The investment provides capital, expertise, and strategic support while the operating partners retain majority ownership and control of the business. Kevin says he remained happy at Northwestern Mutual, but his practice and clients had evolved. His work had shifted increasingly toward investments and complex high-net-worth planning, while he also began identifying risks in his intended internal succession plan. OnePoint already had the infrastructure, people, and capabilities Kevin would have needed to build himself. The merger allowed him to focus on clients while becoming an equity partner in a larger enterprise he believed could grow faster than his standalone practice. Kevin says his decision was driven primarily by trust. He had known Andy and other OnePoint partners for decades and believed the firm offered the right future for his clients and employees. His choice ultimately came down to staying at Northwestern Mutual or joining OnePoint. Their discussion points to three fundamental considerations: trust, demonstrable value, and philosophical alignment. Economics matter, but both argue that a sustainable partnership depends on confidence in the people and business on the other side of the transaction. Related Resources Rise and Reinvent: Joe Duran on Building and Rebuilding World-Class Firms From Insurance Sales to $8B RIA: A Northwestern Mutual Breakaway Story The 4th Annual Advisor Transition Report Andy SchwartzCo-Founder, Managing Partner, and Chief Executive Officer Andy Schwartz is the Co-Founder, Managing Partner, and Chief Executive Officer of OnePoint BFG Wealth Partners, where he also serves as a Wealth Management Advisor. A CERTIFIED FINANCIAL PLANNER® with more than 40 years of experience, Andy has built his career around helping clients make confident, well-informed financial decisions at every stage of life. He works extensively with physicians and business owners on wealth building, retirement planning, and tax-efficient asset transfer across generations. A 2026 finalist for Wealth Management Awards CEO of the Year (under $25B AUM), Andy brings the same discipline to leading the firm that he brings to client relationships: comprehensive planning, long-term thinking, and an unwavering commitment to independence and integrity. Beyond his client work, Andy is deeply invested in the advisory profession itself. He co-hosts The Advisor’s Compass podcast, offering candid, practical guidance on the business and responsibilities of being an advisor. His mentorship philosophy is straightforward: pass the ladder back down. His industry recognition spans more than a decade, including Top 1,200 Advisor by Barron’s (2018–2024), Top 250 Wealth Advisor and Best-In-State Wealth Advisor by Forbes (2018–2024), Top 400 Financial Advisor by the Financial Times (2018–2020), and Top 100 Independent Advisor (2020–2023). He was named Executive of the Year by NJBIZ in 2019 and was a finalist for the Invest in Others Lifetime Achievement Award for more than 20 years of service with NJ SEEDS. Andy holds a B.S. in Finance and Marketing from Rowan University and is actively involved with Nourish NJ, the Navy SEAL Foundation, the Jewish Federation of Greater MetroWest NJ, and JSDD. Outside the office, he enjoys golf, reading, and time with his family at the beach. Kevin SpahnPartner and Wealth Advisor Kevin Spahn is a Partner and Wealth Advisor at OnePoint BFG Wealth Partners, bringing more than three decades of experience in comprehensive financial planning to his clients and the firm. Kevin’s path to wealth management is rooted in the law. After earning degrees from the University of Notre Dame and the University of Wisconsin, he began his career as a practicing attorney before making a deliberate pivot toward financial planning in 1993. He joined Northwestern Mutual, then founded Spahn Financial, building a practice centered on thoughtful, holistic planning for families and business owners. That practice joined OnePoint BFG Wealth Partners in 2025. His approach has remained consistent throughout: help clients build and protect wealth not just for themselves, but for the generations that follow. Kevin works with clients on comprehensive financial plans that account for the full picture, understanding that the impact of good planning extends well beyond an individual portfolio to families, businesses, employees, and the broader community. Kevin is based in the greater Chicago area. NOTE: The views and opinions expressed by the guests on this podcast are their own and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of Diamond Consultants. Neither Diamond Consultants nor the guests on this podcast are compensated in any way for their participation. View the transcript of this episode… Build, Grow & Transact: Making the Leap from Northwestern Mutual to a $20B Enterprise A conversation between Louis Diamond, Andy Schwartz, CEO of OnePoint BFG Wealth Partners and Kevin Spahn, Founder of Spahn Financial (now OnePoint BFG). Louis Diamond: Welcome to the latest episode of our podcast series for financial advisors. Today’s episode is Build, Grow & Transact: Making the Leap from Northwestern Mutual to a $20B Enterprise. It’s a conversation with Andy Schwartz, CEO of OnePoint BFG Wealth Partners, and Kevin Spahn, founder of Spahn Financial, now OnePoint BFG. I’m Louis Diamond, and this is The Diamond Podcast for Financial Advisors. Mindy Diamond: At Diamond Consultants, we help elite advisors identify the right environment for their businesses to thrive, whether that’s at a wirehouse, boutique, or independent firm. With nearly three decades of experience, we’ve guided thousands of advisors and represented more than a quarter of a trillion dollars in assets transitioned. Each year, one in four advisors managing a billion dollars or more who change firms are our clients. Our process is education-driven and based on building relationships, starting as your strategic partner well before you’re even thinking of a move. To schedule a confidential conversation, call us at 908-879-1002. Wondering why advisors change firms and where they’re headed? Are transition deals going up or down? Those very questions, and more, inspired us to create our annual Advisor Transition Report. It’s the award-winning data-driven resource designed for advisors that connects the dots between the motivations around movement and the firm’s appetite for top talent. Arm yourself with the knowledge you need to make smart decisions. Download your copy at diamond-consultants.com/transitionreport. Louis Diamond: There’s a big difference between building a successful practice and building an enterprise. I think Andy Schwartz and Kevin Spahn offer a unique perspective on that distinction from two very different sides. Both spent decades in the Northwestern Mutual system. Andy ultimately left to build what became OnePoint BFG Wealth Partners, taking the firm from roughly three billion to nearly 20 billion and transforming just about every aspect of the business along the way. Kevin built one of Northwestern Mutual’s top practices before reaching a different inflection point, deciding what he wanted the next phase of his career and business to look like. Rather than go independent on his own or simply monetize what he had built, he chose to become part of Andy’s growing enterprise. That makes their story particularly relevant for our Build, Grow, and Transact series. Andy can speak to what it takes to build a firm capable of becoming an acquirer, from converting advisors from 1099s to W-2s, to creating equity opportunities, to bringing in outside capital while remaining very deliberate about being private equity-invested rather than private equity-owned. And Kevin brings the seller’s perspective, how you evaluate the economics, the trade-offs, and ultimately the people you’re trusting with the business you spent more than 30 years building. Because whether you’re building, buying, or considering a transaction of any kind, the numbers are only part of the equation. As you hear from both Andy and Kevin, trust may be the most important currency of all. So let’s get to it. Andy and Kevin, thank you so much for both joining us today. Andy Schwartz: Great to see you again, Lewis. Thank you for having us. Louis Diamond: I’ve been excited about this interview for a bunch of reasons. One, our Build, Grow, Transact series has become a real staple of our show and we got lots to talk about there. But also, the friendship, the relationship that you two have had for over 30 years really stood out to me. So before we get into the nuts and bolts, talk about your relationship. How’d you guys meet, and how did your career stay so intertwined together when you’re in different geographies and at different firms, and have each been very successful in your own rights? Andy Schwartz: Sure. Kevin, do you want to start with that? Kevin Spahn: Sure. I started in this career in 1994 and met Andy sometime after that. He was a more advanced financial planner. I was an attorney, and then I transitioned into this business. So when I first joined Northwestern Mutual, which is my first broker dealer, I didn’t really have a background in investments. At the time, a lot of Northwestern Mutual reps were learning the investment business because they maybe originally started with Northwestern Mutual focusing more on insurance planning. My background was more estate planning. At the time, if you think early ’90s, if you did estate planning, insurance often went hand in hand with that. The estate exemption in early 1990s was about $600,000. So if you pass more than $600,000 to your children, there was a 55% tax. One way around it was to put insurance in an irrevocable trust, help cover the tax that way. So it really was a popular common strategy back then, and it’s really what got me into the business. But I quickly realized that I didn’t want my future to be insurance and estate planning. And there was a conflict if you acted as someone’s attorney and sold insurance. So I had to pick one way or the other. I decided long-term it would be better for me to move into the wealth management space. But with that little background in that, I had a lot of work to do. So took a lot of tests, became a certified financial planner. But the person that helped me the most along the way was Andy. We became friends, we sat on committees together. That’s really how we met, I would say. So we worked side by side interacting with our home office and representing the field, bringing issues to the home office that we thought were beneficial to the field. As we did that together, I got to know Andy. And then separately, I learned from him how he built his business and how they would review clients’ portfolios and come up with solutions. So I really credit Andy with helping me more than anyone else to transition from attorney, financial planner doing more estate planning insurance to wealth management. Louis Diamond: Very cool. Hey, I would say, maybe I’m a little biased, that, Kevin, you picked the right path in hanging up the law shingle and coming into wealth management. Kevin Spahn: I tell a lot of people I’m a reformed attorney. Andy Schwartz: Great. Louis Diamond: Exactly. My dad would say the exact same thing. Very common at dinner tables in the Diamond households. Andy Schwartz: I was always grateful that I wasn’t smart enough to be an attorney. Louis Diamond: There we go. Andy Schwartz: That’s where my gratitude lies. Yeah. Louis Diamond: There we go. Andy Schwartz: Some would say he’s too smart. Louis Diamond: There we go. Andy, question for you. I mean, anyone who is at or was at Northwestern Mutual, I mean, you’re like Elvis to them. It’s absolutely crazy the amount of fanfare and brand recognition that you and your brother Scott have. But for those who maybe missed your first podcast appearance with us a number of years ago, or aren’t or weren’t within the Northwestern Mutual system, or haven’t been familiar with Bleakley and now OnePoint BFG, just give us the cliff notes, the origin story, how you got into the business, and how’d you get from here to there? Andy Schwartz: Yeah. So the origin is probably pretty common, probably by accident. Going into my senior year in college, I was working in a restaurant, had a falling out with my boss. I happened to be dating a woman who was living with a general agent with Fidelity Union Life. No one will have ever heard of Fidelity Union Life, but their secret sauce was they sold life insurance to college seniors on a note. So if you can get a $10 money order, because where I went to school, nobody had a checking account, then you could basically get a note signed and they would buy insurance. And then when they graduate, hopefully they’d pay for it. I started selling life insurance my senior year in college. And then my twin brother Scott, who is my partner, and has been for over 40 years, he took an interview with what was the nucleus of our present firm actually. I just went up to Northern New Jersey in May of 1984 because I was an expert. I had been selling life insurance to college kids for six months, so I knew everything you had to know. We met with these guys, and we both ended up joining them. So that was a Northwestern Mutual district agency, and that was 1984. We got licensed right away. I got my CFP in ’86. We always knew that it was going to be about planning. So I think we had the right idea. We were a little ahead of the curve because there weren’t a lot of CFPs in ’86. We got securities license immediately. So before Northwestern had securities license, we got securities license with US Life actually. And then it was really a volume business, a client-building business. We always tried to act as a firm and share resources. We were small, but like a lot of people, we started out selling A shares and B shares and C shares, doing financial planning, selling insurance, and then we made a lot of really good hires along the way. And then after 30 years at Northwestern Mutual, which was a great experience for me, and I have nothing but respect for the institution and certainly the advisors that are there, Kevin certainly was one of them, and I know he feels the same way, but we just wanted to have a little more flexibility. We went independent about 11, almost 12 years ago. We wanted to be able to be multi-custodial. We wanted to have a little bit more optionality for our clients and for ourselves. We left Northwestern at three billion or so in assets, and that was in 2015. It’s in March of 2024, I get introduced to this guy with a crazy accent named Joe Duran. Funny, probably the only person in the industry that had no idea who Joe Duran was me. I’d never heard of Joe Duran. I don’t pay attention. I worry about our firm. I don’t worry about what’s going on outside. So I get introduced to Joe by a mutual friend, and we had an interesting conversation, and it took us probably about four or five months to figure out what we wanted to do. And then in August of ’24, myself and my three partners, we rolled in. And then in ’85, the rest of the firm rolled in. And we can talk a little bit more about that. Today we’re 18-plus billion, growing quite a bit. We’ve been very lucky that we’ve made some very good decisions along the way. We’ve made some bad ones too. But most of the decisions had to do with the people that we hired, the people that we brought on to help us, because I think it’s really important. I always say that the biggest mistake advisors make is they buy their own bullshit, and I try not to, and I realize that I’m smart enough, but I’m certainly not the smartest guy. I’m rarely the smartest guy in the room. So what we try to do is hire lots and lots of really smart people. And we’ve done that. They’ve been loyal to us, we’ve been loyal to them. Yeah, so we’re blessed to have a really great team and lots of good partners. Yeah. Louis Diamond: Yeah, we’ll definitely get into more of the nuts and bolts of the decision to take on capital, partner with Joe Duran’s Rise, but that’s an amazing background. Andy, I have to give you credit because your style, and I think I’m sure there’s business benefits, but it comes from a good place, I’m sure. But the coaching and consulting and just assistance that I’ve heard you provide to so many past and current Northwestern Mutual advisors through sports camps is absolutely incredible. It’s very near and dear to my heart because we always try to lead with education and helping people. So I just wanted to call that out, that your reputation for just providing amazing guidance and coaching to advisors is unparalleled. Andy Schwartz: And it’s been the best part of our journey. We’ve been able to help so many people. We get way too much credit by the way. So everybody gives us way too much credit. But the way I look at it is, I’ve been able to leverage my life because I’ve been able to build a great life for myself and my family, but we’ve been able to leverage that, and that’s where the real gift is. So yeah, it’s been a joyful journey for us. Louis Diamond: Amazing. Kevin, question for you. You walked through your little bit unorthodox background to get into Northwestern. Can you talk about where your personal practice is today? And then I want to ask you about the decision to leave Northwestern and sell and team up with Andy and team. Kevin Spahn: Well, I have to go back to the beginning. What was attractive to me about this business is I went from a career which was confrontational adversarial. I was a trial attorney for six years, and every day I would fight with people over things I didn’t necessarily have a personal interest in and I didn’t really believe in always. But the adversarial confrontational nature wasn’t really my personality, and I would take it too personally. So sometimes I’d go home in a bad mood because I was fighting with somebody taking a deposition. At night, after so many years as a trial attorney, I started going to people’s houses and doing wills and trusts. And that’s where the dynamic of working with a client or a potential client, feeling that you helped them and walking out of the meeting where they would appreciate what you did for them, and you build a relationship and actually all of a sudden have a friend, that dynamic was attractive to me. That’s really what got me to transition into the business. So I think it was really helpful to me at the beginning of this career. As Andy said, we all grew our businesses one client at a time. There’s a lot of doors closed, phones hung up on. There’s many people that don’t want to talk to you. There’s many people that don’t call you back. There’s many people that you think you’re getting somewhere with and you don’t. And that’s difficult for people because people often, young reps take that as personal rejection. I had the benefit of comparing what I was dealing with as a young financial planner to what I had dealt with as an attorney in litigation. I think it just was perspective that I knew I didn’t want to do that anymore. So the negatives to this business didn’t seem that bad to me. I loved the independence. I loved all the relationships that I was building. And that part of it is to this day my favorite part of the business. When you ask about the present, what basically happens is you start out taking anybody and everybody as a potential client or as someone that you would be willing to work with. And then over time you work with more successful people. So where I’m at today is working with pretty successful people, but they’re all the same, meaning we like working with nice people. If people are nice, we work with them. I feel we can help anybody. Over the years, one client at a time. The thing that I probably, if I could go back, would change is I think Andy and I are both good at meeting people and building trust and providing value, so that’s why they work with us. So I think that’s just something we’ve both been able to do. He’s much better than I am at building an organization. So I built an organization basically hiring people, that whenever we got too busy, I hired another person. Drawback in terms of that is, anybody that I interview I think is great, and I think they’d be great to join the organization. I like them all. In spite of that, I’ve also brought in many good people that I love. At this point, my firm has 18 people. We’re a little subset of Andy’s larger firm. I think one of the most attractive things to me about joining Andy’s firm is what Andy mentioned before: the people. As opposed to me having to build this all out myself, going independent, Andy already did that. And he has the infrastructure that would allow me to just merge right into that and not have to go through the pain of figuring all that out, which I don’t even think I’m capable of, to be honest with you. Louis Diamond: You’re probably selling yourself short because the way I understood it, you had one of the top practices within the entire Northwestern Mutual systems, and it’s a firm filled with very successful advisors. For you, Kevin, what was the driving force to leaving NM after all these years? What was bothering you or frustrating you that indicated to you that it was time to do something different? Kevin Spahn: To be honest with you, I was pretty happy at Northwestern Mutual. I love the company and the people. I still have many good friends there that I truly miss. The big thing for me, I don’t know if it was any one thing, to be honest with you, is Andy said there’s optionality, especially on the investment side. I think one of the things that happened to me is, when I first started, I was 31 years old, and most of the potential clients that I would meet and work with, they weren’t what I would call today great investment clients. They didn’t have a lot of money. They had great futures. They might’ve been earning significant income or on the way to earning significant income. So what did they need at that point in their life? They needed planning. They needed protection. They didn’t really need investment management because most of their investments were going into their 401(k). But a lot of those clients that we would take on, and I think that’s the big advantage of Northwestern Mutual, you take on clients that a lot of the investor firms don’t want because they don’t have large investment portfolios. But at some point down the road, all of a sudden you wake up and they do have large investment portfolios. So you bring them in as clients that might buy life insurance from you or disability insurance or something like that. And then you help them, and you give them advice, and you build a relationship with them. Down the road, they make more and more money. They leave jobs, they roll 401(k)s, they have the ability to invest money, stock options, things like that. Next thing you’re doing more comprehensive planning that incorporates investments. As that progresses even further, you work with larger and larger clients, much more significant net worth, more complexity, bigger tax issues. Some of the strategies and opportunities that we now have at this independent RIA are very attractive for these high-net-worth clients. Along the same lines, less of what I do at this point in my career is insurance, mostly because a lot of the people that I meet are older, they already bought insurance, they’re looking more for investment advice as opposed to insurance. So one of the things that most attracted me to Northwest Mutual was their strong insurance products, which helped me for many years. As time went on, I was doing less of that. Louis Diamond: Makes complete sense. So it was a changing of what clients wanted and just the circumstances of your clients where you said, “What got me here when I was 31 was insurance planning, and that’s what my clients needed. But as my practice has evolved, I’ve aged, my clients are older, have more money, the focus shifted from insurance to investments.” And then the distinction was, am I at the best place to run investments in addition to insurance planning, et cetera? It’s a very interesting dynamic. Just the shift in basically your legacy clients was what drove you to consider change. Kevin Spahn: That was a big factor. I think the second big factor was I had my own firm with 18 people. My succession plan was that at some point I would shift ownership of the firm to people that worked with me. So as they owned more of the firm, they would have revenue that was currently at the time being paid to me. In my mind, as it shifted to them, they would buy me out using revenue from the clients that we already had. And I realized that there were some issues with that. In our business, as you get older, in your client’s age, they start taking money out of their portfolios. So everyone understands that in our business, the younger average age client you have makes your book more valuable. I was the biggest driver of new business at my firm, and I started to see that there were some problems with my succession plan. They included, if something happened to me during this succession, that would be a real problem for the people that were buying my business from me if I went that way. If something happened to some of my key people, that would’ve been a problem as well. So it was really attractive to me to… I wasn’t looking to sell my business, I was looking to merge it. So I merged it with Andy’s business. I believe that Andy and what he’s put together and the actual idea of having partners. So I never really had partners, but now I do. Having partners that we’re all on the same page, we all have similar backgrounds, we all bring something different to the table, and we can learn and benefit from working with each other. But also, owning a little piece of a much larger firm was, number one, it put me in a better position in terms of the potential risk of something happening to me or one of my key people. But secondly, I just think it’s more likely to grow at a greater pace than my firm would’ve as I aged from my 60s to my 70s. Louis Diamond: Very interesting. It’s a great realization. I think it’s one that probably every firm owner grapples with at some point, is the romanticism or the ease, some would say, of an internal succession plan. Rewarding those who have helped you build the firm is something I think everyone is interested in. But once that’s put into practice, whether it’s because of capital or sky-high valuations or right people on the bus or risk, et cetera, nowadays oftentimes leads to a firm owner looking at a transaction, whether it’s a merger, a sale, a private equity, capital infusion as a means to solve for succession. So it’s a very interesting way you framed it. Andy, I want to turn it over to you for a little bit. So you mentioned when you launched Bleakley Financial, which was the old name of your firm, out of Northwestern, you’re about three billion. I think I read that you’re about 10 billion or so when Joe Duran and Rise invested you in 2024. You just said you’re at 18 billion now in the middle of 2026. That is absolutely incredible and amazing. Andy Schwartz: We’ll be well over 20 by the end of the year without any additional organic growth. Louis Diamond: That’s absolutely incredible. Andy Schwartz: We’ve got a lot going on right now. Louis Diamond: What’s actually driven that? What’s been the playbook? Andy Schwartz: The three areas that are most important for us, and we had our town hall this morning, and we always talk about the things we focus on as a group, the first and most important is the client experience. I always say to people, if you are their advisor, then that means someone else isn’t. These people, they all deserve to be really well taken care of. They deserve the best service, they deserve the best advice. So that’s something we take really personally. So client experience first. Then we also understand that we don’t just work for clients, we work for our advisors. So I have two jobs. I have, I don’t know, 500 clients I service with my team, and I work for Kevin and 36 other partners and all of our employees. Because again, I recognize that the decision Kevin made… We’re in the middle of a transition out with another advisor, and we pretty much talk to her every day, and I know how hard this is. A transition is so difficult. When you come from a good place, because any of the Northwestern advisor who joins, they’re coming from a good place, it’s not like they have to go anywhere, it’s difficult. So we have the massive responsibility that three or four or five or 10 years from now, that there better be hugs around that this was the best decision ever made or otherwise. That’s the kind of thing that keeps me up at night. So we’ve got to take care of our client experience, we’ve got to take care of our advisor experience. And then obviously, we’ve got to grow the firm so the firm grows organically. So part of this whole idea of serving our advisors is we have to help our advisors grow. I talk to a lot of people on the acquisition side, and if I’m talking to an advisor, it doesn’t matter how big they are, we kind of think of it as a OnePoint way. There’s flexibility in the OnePoint way. But if I can’t help them grow, I don’t want them, because I say it all the time, I’m not the mafia. I’m not here to get a taste. Louis, if you weren’t interested in joining us, if I thought that we could help you grow by doing that, then I want you bad. If I don’t think I can help you grow because we’re so different, or because you’re not going to adapt what we do, or there’s no leverage in it, or you’re already better than we are, I don’t want it. So for us, organic growth, number one, and I think you know the industries well enough, that’s got to be the key. We shoot for 10% organic growth. We’re at a little over 5% so far halfway through the year. So assuming we have the similar second half of the year, we’ll hit our 10. Last year we’re at 7.5%. The second is the inorganic growth. If you truly build a platform, if you truly build a firm that advisors know that they’ll be supported, that they’ll be loved, and you’ll help them grow their businesses, it does make it easier for us. We’re not the highest bidder typically. We can’t. We respect our client’s capital, we respect their equity, so therefore we’re not going to go out there. We’re not an aggregator, we’re a firm. But I think that if we can get that message across, and I think we have, then advisors join us. So that’s been a big part of the growth. And then the market’s helped. Obviously, over the last two years, the market’s been helpful. So that’s how we’ve gone from 10 to 18 and on our way to 22 by year-end. Louis Diamond: This is absolutely incredible. Any advisor or firm owner would say organic growth is important, but just saying it’s important doesn’t mean it’s going to happen. So what are the ways in which you help your advisors or your own practice grow organically? What is it that OnePoint is doing for your advisors? Andy Schwartz: Starting with bringing on growth-oriented advisors. I mean, look, Kevin Spahn and I come from the same place. We learned how to sell. The great thing about coming out of whether they’re broker dealers or out of the different insurance BDs is, these are people that know how to sell. These are people that don’t think that selling is a bad word. A lot of times you go to the wirehouses and they’re not necessarily sales guys. They’re really smart. They think that they’re investment mavens and investment geniuses. I’m not interested in investment geniuses. I’m interested in people that want to take care of their clients, provide everything they can, clients first, do the proper planning, be good advisors, but they’re growth-oriented. So as long as we’re talking with the right advisors. Again, if I’m talking to advisor and they might have a big practice, if they’re not growers, we’re not interested. There’s a sense of responsibility for all the partners because we are a true partnership. It’s not an aggregation. This is a firm. I’m responsible for Kevin. Kevin’s responsible to me. All of our partners are responsible to each other, because if we’re going to do a 10% organic growth target, and if some partner is negative 3%, we don’t put them through the spanking machine, but everybody is very aware of where everybody is and nobody wants to let their partners down. I think either you’re a growth-oriented advisor or you’re a zoo-fed bear. There’s another expression that I got from another Rise Growth Partner or Rise Growth firm. We all kind of communicate and talk to each other. And I was talking about zoo-fed bears, and he said, we call them house cats that think they fight. So they’re house cats, but they have no claws. But I think if you’re careful about who you bring on as partners, and if they are workers, growers, they understand that their job in life is to serve the people. We talk about referrals, we do lots of training to help on referrals. We work on organic growth strategies from the firm, but a lot of it comes from the advisors themselves. Louis Diamond: Makes sense. So it sounds like, to boil it down, it’s being really selective and having a really clear sense of who’s the right fit for your firm. Not that there’s not amazing advisors out there, but just because you’re an amazing advisor, doesn’t mean you’re the right fit to join OnePoint. Andy Schwartz: I think the one big distinction and difference is other than the fact that we are minority-owned with private equity. So we own our business. I mean, I’m the CEO of the firm. I also have the biggest book in the firm. At least for right now, I mean, Kevin was transitioning, so I’m sure next year he’ll be the leading advisor. But I lead the firm, because as far as I’m concerned, you have to lead by example. We are completely aligned. I know exactly what Kevin does every day because I do the same thing. I’m not some attorney or accountant or private equity boss that’s saying, “Oh, I’ve got an idea for growth. We’ll just raise our fees by 5%.” Brilliant. Yeah, we are completely aligned, all of us. I think that makes us a little bit unique, and it really helps us, I think, in our growth trajectory. Louis Diamond: I would agree. The challenge that a lot of advisors-turned-firm-owners or turned-enterprise-builders have is the tug of war between the client work, which either is their ultimate passion and driving force, or it’s something they’re really good at minimum, versus being the owner, the operator, et cetera. I resonate very much, Andy, with the way you handle it. I do the same thing running a company, but also working with advisors. To me, I need to do both in order to do my job well. But that tug of war is tough. So I’m curious, your firm is very large now, you’re a steward of external capital, and you have a $3 billion book yourself. How do you do it? How do you balance the two? Andy Schwartz: Well, fortunately, my kids are grown, so I’m not coaching sports anymore. So I do have a little more time than most. Look, we have a great team. So the idea that I run the firm… I mean, I lead the firm, I don’t run the firm. We have great partners. We have great… Our manager team is fantastic. So I mean, they really run the firm. But this is where my passion is for now. So I don’t mind. Days are typically pretty long. I don’t play golf during the week. Mara and I don’t travel probably as much as we should. Vacations are always a little bit mixed. There’s always room for calls and meetings and whatever. But to me, I mean, I’m grateful to be in this situation. I’m enjoying it. This is such a privilege to be the person that people recognize as the leader of this bunch, of this group. I mean, it is the honor of my life. So I don’t think of it so much as work. It’s my advocation. It does get busy. There are some times where I have to remind myself, “Just enjoy the ride.” I get a little overwhelmed, but I get lots of help and that makes it possible. Louis Diamond: Yep. If you’re not doing the job of the folks that you’re encouraging and leading to do, how do you have fodder to train them, to teach them, to empathize with that? Andy Schwartz: Exactly, you don’t have the credibility. I can ask them to do almost anything because they know I do it myself, and I think that helps. Louis Diamond: Yep. So moving more into the decision to bring on private equity capital, what I thought was probably the most interesting component of your announcement that you took on PE investment was that you completely restructured or reoriented your firm prior to Joe Duran coming in 2024. Correct me if I’m wrong, but Bleakley Financial Group was almost all 1099 contractors. So everyone owned their own books of business, paid Bleakley a fee or an override for certain services. But now, today, over 85% of your advisors and your AUM are W-2 employees, meaning you converted them from 1099 to acquiring them or merging with them. To me, that’s the dream. It’s had to have been very, very, very hard and challenging because there’s so many aggregator firms or platforms that support independent advisors, but the value that they’ve created is fairly minimal relative to one cohesive firm. So can you just talk about that decision, a very big and brave decision to go down the path of acquiring or merging with the practices rather than letting them continue to operate independently? Andy Schwartz: Well, look, we had to… It’s funny because we had been having conversations for years with consultants, and they kept telling us what we had to do. Again, we’re not that smart, so we just kept thinking, “No, we don’t have to do that.” But we were told 10 years earlier that the only way that this thing has any value to the world is you’ve got to have EBITDA for the firm. We talked to all the smart people, we ignored all of them. But what happened was we needed capital and we needed equity in order to bring people on, because people aren’t just joining us just because we can help them grow a bigger business. So the reason we went in the direction we went initially was we just needed capital. We wanted to grow the firm, and the only way we were going to get to is… What’s the old saying? What got us here is not going to get us there. So we needed capital. But we also realized that I had to have something I could sell in the marketplace. And people want equity. So they want cash, but they also want equity, because we’re talking to entrepreneurs. Kevin owned his own firm. He has $2 billion of assets. He wasn’t interested in being someone’s employee, but he was interested in being able to get leverage and be a partner and share equity in a larger firm that had the chance to grow even more. So what the gift that Joe Duran, the Rise folks gave us was that gift of structure and understanding. So that was really helpful, and that’s been a big part of our success. Louis Diamond: Yeah, it’s an amazing journey. Again, I think you could probably write a book or a case study on how that happened. I’m sure there were some downfalls, some people that weren’t all that excited about it, but the results speak for itself. Andy Schwartz: I think people ask all the time because I do get phone calls. People are trying to do this, and they’re struggling. It took us 90 days to basically do it. People say, “I’ve been at this for two years.” And the biggest issue is trust. Either they trust you or they don’t. At the end of the day, I always went to the advisor here, we were a firm for 30-plus years prior, and these guys knew that we always did what we said we were going to do, and we always did. If your people trust you, then you can do it. If your people don’t trust you, it isn’t going to work. Louis Diamond: In other words, your firm added immense value to the advisors as well. Aside from trust, if you weren’t providing a service or services that they found a value that they couldn’t access on their own, it would’ve been 85/15 going the other way for sure. Andy Schwartz: Yeah, 100%. I know it’s not easy, but it wasn’t that hard for us. Louis Diamond: Good. It’s well-earned. So I believe you were Rise Growth Partners’ first investment. Andy Schwartz: We were. Louis Diamond: That’s cool. It’s exciting. You get to be someone’s first, but did it make you uncomfortable that you were the first investment or did you see that as a positive? Andy Schwartz: I actually saw it as a positive. Well, one, because I recognized immediately that Joe Duran and his team were way smarter than we were certainly, and certainly with what we were trying to do. And I figured that it’s almost like the first child. They were so excited to have somebody, and there was so much time and energy, so they just really doted on us. They were really able to help us. Now they’ve got four or five groups that they work with, and obviously we’ve been launched. So the younger babies are getting more time and attention, although we get everything that we need from them. But yeah, that never concerned me. I always thought that would be our advantage. It actually turned out that way. Louis Diamond: Interesting. In thinking through a sale or a minority sale, did you entertain other types of capital, whether it was a family office or a multitude of other private equity sponsors or selling the firm outright? Andy Schwartz: Yeah, we probably had four or five very, very serious conversations. Actually, some got pretty close to the end where we basically just made the decision not to do it. One was a much larger firm, good people. But the problem always was… I was always going to get rich out of the deal because it was going to be 100% sale, but there was really no lift or leverage from the advisors. So the principals, they were willing to pay me a big multiple and my partners a big multiple, and pay these guys basically an average multiple. So we had always told our guys, “Let’s stay together, and someday, this thing, whatever it’s going to turn into be, will benefit everyone.” So with the Duran situation and the deal with Rise did, it gave everybody a chance to benefit from what we were doing. But what was good about all of those false starts was, it taught me a lot because I had… I know you’re involved in this, so you know better than I do, but we’d start conversations, somebody would reach out to me, I would be very specific about what I needed. They would say, “Yep, we can do that.” And then you get to the finish line, and it’s almost like, I started out, I wanted a tomahawk steak and a baked potato, and I ended up getting a two-day-old hamburger with some cold French fries. It’s like, I know I’m not that smart and I know you’re the PE guys, but for God’s sakes, we’re not stupid. So it was funny because in January of ’24, I told my partners, “I don’t want to have any more of these conversations. It was a waste of time and energy. I’m sick of talking to these people. Let’s just put our heads down, and then let’s grow the firm a little bit more, and then we’ll see what the world looks like.” And then I get introduced to Duran. Louis Diamond: Perfect. Makes sense. Yeah, so you were well-educated on the market, the types of buyers, and I always say it’s almost more important to understand what you don’t want more than what you do want. The only way oftentimes to understand what you don’t want is to experience it and touch and feel it and really get into the weeds on it. I like too, Andy, I saw in an article, you said that “we’re private equity invested, we’re not private equity owned,” which is a very cool dynamic. I could imagine why that was important to you to retain majority control. Kevin, I want to bring you back into the conversation. Thank you for being patient here. But I mean, I would imagine you had some real choices. I mean, you could have stayed at Northwestern and been very successful, gone through with your internal succession plan. You could have gone to an independent BD, monetized, figured out succession later. You could have sold the business to a strategic acquirer. You were big enough to take on an investor in some capacity on your own. So options wasn’t your problem. Maybe just walk us through. Did you consider any other pathways? And what were the pros and cons in your mind that led you to doing a transaction with Andy? Kevin Spahn: I’m a little different, I think, than most people in this industry. Even as you grow your business at a certain percentage, none of that stuff has ever really meant anything to me. All I know is I like what I do. So when I came into the business, because I like it, I enjoy it, I spend time doing it, I’ve tried to get better at it. But it comes naturally because it’s something that I don’t look at Monday mornings as, “Oh, no, it’s Monday morning.” I’m excited to go to work. My entire career, once I left law, my business has just grown over the years naturally. But you said something before, Louis, and I think this applies to me. I love to work with the clients. I don’t like what I have to do in terms of running the firm. I never have. It’s never been my cup of tea, but you have to do it if you run a firm. So number one, the thought of all the due diligence that I would have to do to research all the firms out there, I wasn’t really all that interested in doing that. At the end of the day, it comes down to this word trust. I trust Andy. I trust the other partners here too, because I’ve known not just Andy, but I’ve known Scott and many of the other partners for years. So I knew what I was getting myself into. At the end of the day, I knew what they built. I was very comfortable with it, and I was either going to stay at Northwestern Mutual or I was going to come here, but I wasn’t going to go anywhere else. I will say, since I’ve gone, it’s been exactly like I thought. I thought I trusted Andy. And if something happened along the way with the transition, everything that he said has been true, thing that he promised is real. As you deal with more complexities with a bigger book and more and more employees, I knew that I was almost at the breaking point in terms of my own organization and to merge into this organization that, as I said before, he’s already built out. I don’t have to do it. And to benefit from these great people that he has as part of his organization, that’s all been a real blessing for me and my team. So I didn’t shop the marketplace really, but I knew what I was getting into, and it’s worked out clear as I thought it would. Louis Diamond: That’s amazing. I think that’s what most people would covet. But it is a decision in and of itself to not shop the marketplace. I mean, from representing buyers or prospective buyers, I know the pricing leverage or the negotiation leverage and the valuation lift that comes from having an open market, having multiple bids, et cetera. It sounds like that wasn’t the… Obviously you wanted to get fair value for your firm, but for you, it was more, it’s trust, “I’m either going to just stay at Northwestern, which is the devil I know or it’s what I’ve known where I’ve been successful, or I’m going to go to the individual that I trust and forget about all the other noise.” Kevin Spahn: Well, Andy says things, but I know they’re true because I’ve seen him at work. I’ve seen how he’s acted. I’ve seen how he interacts with people. But here’s an example. He cares about the people that are at his firm. He says that, but I know it’s true because I see it. I’m the same. I really care about the people in my firm. So as I think about, well, what about the future of two groups, my clients, but also the people that work in my firm? They’re going to be around long after I am. Well, I don’t want myself to retire someday, get a big check, because there’s all sorts of options to get a check. If I get a check and then my client’s scatter to the wind, and my employees don’t really have a future and they just have to go and find their own way, that wasn’t attractive at all to me. So one of the things that I really appreciate about this opportunity is that there is a plan for both my clients and my employees or the younger team members at formerly Spahn Financial, where I feel very good about the fact that they have a solid, secure future in an industry that they’ve all grown to love without them having to go out and make their own way. Louis Diamond: Makes sense to me. We noted a couple of times in this interview, you talked about equity, partnership, both of you have. So Kevin, for you, what did it mean differently for you to become a partner and get equity in a larger firm rather than, we’ll say, the less risky move of just taking everything in cash? Why was that an important distinction for you? Kevin Spahn: For many years, when I left law and came into this business, I didn’t have any money at the time. I was just starting to make money as a lawyer. It takes a while. I started low. I got trial experience working for the government, so they didn’t pay much. That was three years. Then I was at a firm, and I was just starting to make more money. Then I made this big shift into a career that was all commissions. Well, even with what I thought was good early success, it took years till I really had any money in the bank or till I could actually tell my wife what we had in the bank because I really didn’t want her to know before promoting with her. But I never was really worried about the future because I could see what it looked like. I also knew that I loved what I did every day, and I knew what it would lead to. It’s always been a part of my own career path that I got to the point somewhere along the way where I knew I had enough money. Somewhere along the way, I realized I could retire if I wanted to. Here’s the good news. I don’t want to. I like what I do. So it really wasn’t about the biggest check or anything like that. But when I go back to this analysis, well, how did I bring in business before? If you do a good job and the clients appreciate the work you do, they refer you to their friends. So that would happen. That’s how we grew our business. But as I think about, “Well, I now have two grandchildren. I’d like to spend time with them. I have four children. They’re all going to get married and have kids,” I see over the next whatever, 10 or 15 years, I will want more flexibility. Andy and I both work pretty long hours right now. Won’t have the time for that. So what’ll happen? Well, at some point, I think the new business generation will slow down a little bit. And as I said before, as our clients age, some of the money starts coming out, that all affects the value of your book. I feel pretty comfortable that the combination of what we’re doing and all my partners and then this firm that Andy’s built, I think that the growth will be pretty strong over the next 5, 10 years. So part of my thought process was I’m trusting in that and I’m buying into that. At the end of the day, I’m comfortable that the combination of what this is going to ultimately do for my clients and then my team, and then the value of my ownership compared to what I would’ve done on my own, the combination of it all is a really good solution for where I was a year ago. Louis Diamond: That sounds like it. I mean, I feel like the equity ownership dynamic, especially equity in a firm other than yourself, it’s either something that advisors get really charged up about because they see what you saw, Kevin. “I’m diversifying. It’s not just my growth, it’s everyone’s growth, that this asset, this equity has the ability to grow and scale quicker, more efficiently than just me.” At the same time, it’s probably the hardest decision for folks to step over the threshold and say, “I’ve been responsible for my growth, the value of my firm. If they’re independent already, I decide distributions, who to hire, et cetera. It’s for better or worse, it’s me and I’ve trusted myself.” So just getting comfortable with equity in someone else and taking your hands off the wheel a little bit is not something that everyone gets comfortable with. But it sounds like, for you, it was the absolute right decision for all the reasons you laid out. Kevin Spahn: You just laid it out perfectly. Years ago, I was going to bring in a junior partner. I was working with this guy, I was training him, teaching him, and he was planning on joining my firm as a junior partner. And then he started asking me what I paid everybody and why I paid these people that much money. I realized right then and there, the last thing I want to do is bring on someone who’s going to own 10% of my firm, and then they’re going to start complaining about what I pay everybody else. I didn’t want to have to make that decision with anybody. It is a special person that I would ever be comfortable becoming a partner with. There are obviously many partners in this firm, but it comes down to the fact that my relationship with Andy as the managing partner and he has a lot of the influence in the firm. It really is trust. And I’ll say, my wife has known Andy a long time, and she trusts him as well. So for years, she would ask me, “What about Andy?” We would talk here and there about his firm, and she’s always been very comfortable with Andy and this potential move. Louis Diamond: There we go. Yeah, the actual decision dynamic was, your wife was comfortable. Kevin Spahn: Exactly. She was my secret weapon the whole time. Louis Diamond: There we go. Andy, I can guess the answer just from doing this conversation, but when you bought Kevin, I don’t know if it’s still true, but at the time, at least, he was your largest deal, and it was the first time you’re entering the Chicagoland area. What was it about Kevin and his practice that made you get to a yes? Andy Schwartz: Listen, I’ve talked to Kevin. I mean, Kevin and I stayed in touch. So for the 11 years, one of the few advisors that I maintained a real relationship with was Kevin. I never really thought he would join me, but I couldn’t help myself because Kevin was the best advisor in the system and the best person in the system. Truth is, I think Kevin did what he did as much as anything. If it was a good financial decision, he wanted to be able to give more money away someday. That’s how Kevin operates. So I’ve always been just a huge fan. I would tease him. When I would joke with him, I would always ask him, “So when are we going to come partners?” And we’ve had our own inside joke, which we’re working on right now, right, Kev, which we’ll work on later this afternoon. So we’ve always had our deal. And then I got to tell you, it was probably, it’s still sometimes I wake up, and I can’t believe how fortunate that he actually did it. So yeah, forgetting about size, I mean, yeah, huge practice, our biggest acquisition, Chicago’s a great market, but I mean, it’s a one in a million. It was hard for him because the Northwestern Mutual didn’t want to lose him. So it was a very difficult decision because I think everybody felt the same way. So no, we’re blessed to have him. His team, he’s got a great team, made our firm better, and this is the best part of the journey for me. Louis Diamond: Amazing. Two more questions for you guys. I’m going to let you get on with your busy days. This would be for either or both of you. So for a Northwestern Mutual advisor, or let’s say any advisor within an insurance BD or who has some sort of proverbial golden handcuffs, whether it’s insurance renewals or pension or a very large unvested deferred compensation balance, really you can pick anything, many of these folks think they’re stuck. Might be unhappy. They might see promise elsewhere, but they can’t reconcile leaving something behind. Another example would be mutual fund trails through proprietary products or a bunch of alts where the trails aren’t going to carry over. What is it you’d want those individuals to understand about what’s actually possible or the mindset of leaving something behind to go run towards something else? Andy Schwartz: Well, I mean, look, the issue is… Look, there’s a number that can be too big to make sense to never leave. So people could be truly stuck. Renewals run out. And as you do less premium as you get older, the renewals get smaller. So renewals to me are a non-issue. I always like to talk to advisors of how much bigger. Our thing is we think we can grow your practice twice as fast and half the time. So if that’s true, and if you believe that’s true, then there’s math on that side, and you just compare the math to what you’re losing. Everybody that we’ve brought on, everybody makes more money, and they’ve more than made up for what they give up. That doesn’t mean though that someone doesn’t have such a golden handcuff or some program that is so substantial. By the way, we do the math. I wouldn’t suggest they do it. If somebody were going to be upside down millions of dollars five years from now by joining me, I don’t want them to join me because they shouldn’t. They should do what’s best for them and their families. But we find that if we really look at the math, we really look at the growth, we look at the growth and the equity, we look at the leverage. The difference is they do not work at firms. They work at institutions, and they’re good institutions, all of them. They’re good people, they’re good institutions, but they’re not firms. They have to build their own firm with an institution. It’s very costly. Their margins are much, much worse. We have great margins. Our partners have great margins of their P&Ls because they’re able to leverage an actual firm. So that’s a big difference. Whenever I talk to these people, I mean, you might build a firm within the institution, but you are not part of a firm. We are a firm. Everybody runs a P&L, they run a book inside a firm because we are a firm. I think that’s a big difference. Everybody’s going to make the decision for themselves. Louis Diamond: Interesting. Andy, I lied because you just sparked another question before my last one. Where do you plot OnePoint on the spectrum, let’s say, of conformity? So on the one hand, you have just someone’s operating completely independently, call shots, no outside capital. All the way to the very, very right would be, all investment portfolios are the same. Everyone’s the same brand. Advisors are basically relationship managers. Where would OnePoint be on the spectrum, and why is that decision important to you? Andy Schwartz: Yeah, I would say we’re probably somewhere in the middle. Everybody’s the same brand. That’s a deal breaker for us. Either you’re going to be a OnePoint partner or you’re not, or a OnePoint tenant or you’re not. Because I’m an advisor, I recognize that everybody comes to a firm or they come to a situation with legacy assets. They come with legacy assets that have taxes. They come with legacy relationships. So we’re not unrealistic, but we also recognize that centralized service is the key both for the value of the firm and the future and for the value and the way they operate within their businesses, grow their businesses. So I would say that it’s a little bit of a struggle. It’s always anything that we do, there has to be a why. You don’t just say, “Okay, everybody is now in this program, and this is what we do.” You better have a why. If you’re going to force people into something, it better be really good because it’s got to be able to be better for them than for them not to be in that. So we have the CSA desk. We don’t force them, but 80% of our advisors are on the CSA desk. Same with the think tank. My guys, they all want to shoot for 100%. I said, “Great, we’ll shoot for 100%.” It will never be mandatory unless it is so good that it’s more cost-effective and it’s better than they can do on their own. When my team can prove that’s true, then we’ll become more restrictive. But until then, we serve these advisors for the idea that we would shove things down their throats. It’s not going to happen. By the way, growth-oriented advisors are entrepreneurial. I don’t want zoo-fed bears. I want growth-oriented, entrepreneurial advisors. But at the same time, they can’t be the Wild West either. It’s because it detracts from value, and it makes it impossible to run a business. It makes it impossible to really leverage the opportunity. So I would say we’re probably somewhere in the middle. Louis Diamond: I would agree. It’s like a gentler form of one team, one dream, while still leaving some entrepreneurial freedoms in the hands of your high growth non-zoo-fed-bear advisors. Andy Schwartz: Yeah. Be realistic about what’s possible, what you’re asking them to do. I mean, these guys have to be able to do what’s best for their clients and selling all their assets and paying taxes, because this is the way we run a portfolio, is completely unacceptable. So all the constituents have to be considered. Louis Diamond: Perfect. Last question for each of you, parting thoughts. If you were speaking to yourself, so Kevin, back before you merged with Andy back 12-ish years ago, before you left Northwestern to launch Bleakley Financial, now called OnePoint, what is it that you would want to tell yourself? Or put another way, what would you tell the yous that are still captive to some sort of institution? Andy Schwartz: Kevin, why don’t you go first? Kevin Spahn: So what would I tell myself? I guess it goes back to what I said before. It’s all about, do you love what you do or not? I’ve always loved what I do. And I tell every potential new client that three things have to be present for you to work with me. Number one, you have to trust me. If you don’t trust me, it’s not going to work. You’re not going to stick with the plan. But if you do trust the advisor, that’s not necessarily enough. People trusted Bernie Madoff, but look where it got them. So you have to trust them. You have to see that they provide value. And if they don’t provide value, I don’t know why you would pay them. And then the third one, which I almost call a get-out-of-jail-free card, is you have to be on the same page with them philosophically. You have to trust them, you have to provide value, and you need to be on the same page philosophically. So as I think back to myself 12 years ago, all I would realize is that I know things now that I didn’t know them. Part of the reason is that Andy talked about my team. I brought on some people in the last 12 years that I was basically following Andy’s lead. They know more than I do. We have several CFAs in our firm. I have a guy, his name’s Tim Funke. He was a portfolio manager at Northern Trust for 12 years before I hired him. When he left Northern Trust, he was working with families of 250 million or more liquid net worth. He’s great, and he’s been with me for 10 years. He’s a partner in our firm too. It has really helped me provide more value for my clients. If I go back 12 years, I would just say associate yourselves with the best people you can, whether you bring them into your firm or this example of me joining with Andy’s firm. It accelerates your trajectory in ways that you can’t do on your own. Louis Diamond: Fantastic. Andy, same question for you. Andy Schwartz: Yeah. I would say, I like to go back 42 years and say, thank you, Andy, for the late nights chasing down $500 a year premiums, taking, I don’t know, Kev, is it fair to say five, six, seven years to break even net worth? I mean, to first dig out of the hole and then to actually… Because I don’t think I was telling Jodi that I had any money in the bank for at least six or seven years. And then I would say, if I look back 12 years, I’m grateful that we had the courage to do it because sometimes… I would say my brother Scott was a big part of it because he really had more conviction. I was benefiting more from being in the Northwestern system with all the joint work. But I’m just grateful that we had the courage because it’s hard to do and that we did it, because I mean, it has worked out so well for us. I mean, not just financially, but I love the work we do. I love what we can provide for our clients. I love the flexibility. I like to say to people that I haven’t had a fight professionally in 12 years, and I used to have fights all the time. They were friendly fights. I mean, they were good people, and I know they did the best they could, but we were constantly fighting about what we couldn’t do. We were constantly… And I don’t do that anymore. That hasn’t been part of my life for so long, so I’ve become like a spoiled brat. I don’t have to fight with anybody. Louis Diamond: That’s amazing. Andy Schwartz: People always ask like, “Do you regret not doing it sooner?” And I would say probably not because it was a great run for us and great firm, a great institution, I met great people. And everything worked out really well. So would we have been bigger sooner? Maybe, but I have no regrets about that. That’s not really an issue for me. Louis Diamond: Absolutely amazing. This has been so much fun, guys. I love the dynamic and the personal relationship and all the trust that you’ve built. Andy, I can’t believe what you’ve accomplished. I mean, you were very successful and Northwestern famous when you’re on our show a couple of years ago. But just the level of growth, the conviction and what you’re doing, the way you’ve converted 1099s to W-2s and partners and just where you’re headed from here is really a treat. Honestly, I almost look at it as a case study for how to build an enterprise. And, Kevin, I really appreciate your candor for sharing behind the scenes of your decision to make the big decision to not just leave Northwestern, but also merge your firm and kind of take your hands off the wheel a little bit. Andy Schwartz: Well, my pleasure. It’s great to see you again, Louis, and happy to talk anytime. Mindy Diamond: As a financial advisor, you hold yourself to the highest standards of integrity, honesty, and credibility. You are successful because you take your professional responsibilities seriously and are dedicated to your clients. But are you living your best business life? Are your goals aligned with your firms or could a better option exist? Should I Stay or Should I Go? Is a book written with you in mind? It’s a self-guided journey that walks you through the key steps that we take with our advisor clients. This strategic thought process and roadmap to professional self-discovery is designed to help you ask the right questions and think critically and objectively, whether you’re considering change or not. Learn how to get your copy at diamond-consultants.com/thebook. Build, Grow & Transact: Making the Leap from Northwestern Mutual to a $20B Enterprise A conversation between Louis Diamond, Andy Schwartz, CEO of OnePoint BFG Wealth Partners and Kevin Spahn, Founder of Spahn Financial (now OnePoint BFG). Louis Diamond: Welcome to the latest episode of our podcast series for financial advisors. Today’s episode is Build, Grow & Transact: Making the Leap from Northwestern Mutual to a $20B Enterprise. It’s a conversation with Andy Schwartz, CEO of OnePoint BFG Wealth Partners, and Kevin Spahn, founder of Spahn Financial, now OnePoint BFG. I’m Louis Diamond, and this is The Diamond Podcast for Financial Advisors. Mindy Diamond: At Diamond Consultants, we help elite advisors identify the right environment for their businesses to thrive, whether that’s at a wirehouse, boutique, or independent firm. With nearly three decades of experience, we’ve guided thousands of advisors and represented more than a quarter of a trillion dollars in assets transitioned. Each year, one in four advisors managing a billion dollars or more who change firms are our clients. Our process is education-driven and based on building relationships, starting as your strategic partner well before you’re even thinking of a move. To schedule a confidential conversation, call us at 908-879-1002. Wondering why advisors change firms and where they’re headed? Are transition deals going up or down? Those very questions, and more, inspired us to create our annual Advisor Transition Report. It’s the award-winning data-driven resource designed for advisors that connects the dots between the motivations around movement and the firm’s appetite for top talent. Arm yourself with the knowledge you need to make smart decisions. Download your copy at diamond-consultants.com/transitionreport. Louis Diamond: There’s a big difference between building a successful practice and building an enterprise. I think Andy Schwartz and Kevin Spahn offer a unique perspective on that distinction from two very different sides. Both spent decades in the Northwestern Mutual system. Andy ultimately left to build what became OnePoint BFG Wealth Partners, taking the firm from roughly three billion to nearly 20 billion and transforming just about every aspect of the business along the way. Kevin built one of Northwestern Mutual’s top practices before reaching a different inflection point, deciding what he wanted the next phase of his career and business to look like. Rather than go independent on his own or simply monetize what he had built, he chose to become part of Andy’s growing enterprise. That makes their story particularly relevant for our Build, Grow, and Transact series. Andy can speak to what it takes to build a firm capable of becoming an acquirer, from converting advisors from 1099s to W-2s, to creating equity opportunities, to bringing in outside capital while remaining very deliberate about being private equity-invested rather than private equity-owned. And Kevin brings the seller’s perspective, how you evaluate the economics, the trade-offs, and ultimately the people you’re trusting with the business you spent more than 30 years building. Because whether you’re building, buying, or considering a transaction of any kind, the numbers are only part of the equation. As you hear from both Andy and Kevin, trust may be the most important currency of all. So let’s get to it. Andy and Kevin, thank you so much for both joining us today. Andy Schwartz: Great to see you again, Lewis. Thank you for having us. Louis Diamond: I’ve been excited about this interview for a bunch of reasons. One, our Build, Grow, Transact series has become a real staple of our show and we got lots to talk about there. But also, the friendship, the relationship that you two have had for over 30 years really stood out to me. So before we get into the nuts and bolts, talk about your relationship. How’d you guys meet, and how did your career stay so intertwined together when you’re in different geographies and at different firms, and have each been very successful in your own rights? Andy Schwartz: Sure. Kevin, do you want to start with that? Kevin Spahn: Sure. I started in this career in 1994 and met Andy sometime after that. He was a more advanced financial planner. I was an attorney, and then I transitioned into this business. So when I first joined Northwestern Mutual, which is my first broker dealer, I didn’t really have a background in investments. At the time, a lot of Northwestern Mutual reps were learning the investment business because they maybe originally started with Northwestern Mutual focusing more on insurance planning. My background was more estate planning. At the time, if you think early ’90s, if you did estate planning, insurance often went hand in hand with that. The estate exemption in early 1990s was about $600,000. So if you pass more than $600,000 to your children, there was a 55% tax. One way around it was to put insurance in an irrevocable trust, help cover the tax that way. So it really was a popular common strategy back then, and it’s really what got me into the business. But I quickly realized that I didn’t want my future to be insurance and estate planning. And there was a conflict if you acted as someone’s attorney and sold insurance. So I had to pick one way or the other. I decided long-term it would be better for me to move into the wealth management space. But with that little background in that, I had a lot of work to do. So took a lot of tests, became a certified financial planner. But the person that helped me the most along the way was Andy. We became friends, we sat on committees together. That’s really how we met, I would say. So we worked side by side interacting with our home office and representing the field, bringing issues to the home office that we thought were beneficial to the field. As we did that together, I got to know Andy. And then separately, I learned from him how he built his business and how they would review clients’ portfolios and come up with solutions. So I really credit Andy with helping me more than anyone else to transition from attorney, financial planner doing more estate planning insurance to wealth management. Louis Diamond: Very cool. Hey, I would say, maybe I’m a little biased, that, Kevin, you picked the right path in hanging up the law shingle and coming into wealth management. Kevin Spahn: I tell a lot of people I’m a reformed attorney. Andy Schwartz: Great. Louis Diamond: Exactly. My dad would say the exact same thing. Very common at dinner tables in the Diamond households. Andy Schwartz: I was always grateful that I wasn’t smart enough to be an attorney. Louis Diamond: There we go. Andy Schwartz: That’s where my gratitude lies. Yeah. Louis Diamond: There we go. Andy Schwartz: Some would say he’s too smart. Louis Diamond: There we go. Andy, question for you. I mean, anyone who is at or was at Northwestern Mutual, I mean, you’re like Elvis to them. It’s absolutely crazy the amount of fanfare and brand recognition that you and your brother Scott have. But for those who maybe missed your first podcast appearance with us a number of years ago, or aren’t or weren’t within the Northwestern Mutual system, or haven’t been familiar with Bleakley and now OnePoint BFG, just give us the cliff notes, the origin story, how you got into the business, and how’d you get from here to there? Andy Schwartz: Yeah. So the origin is probably pretty common, probably by accident. Going into my senior year in college, I was working in a restaurant, had a falling out with my boss. I happened to be dating a woman who was living with a general agent with Fidelity Union Life. No one will have ever heard of Fidelity Union Life, but their secret sauce was they sold life insurance to college seniors on a note. So if you can get a $10 money order, because where I went to school, nobody had a checking account, then you could basically get a note signed and they would buy insurance. And then when they graduate, hopefully they’d pay for it. I started selling life insurance my senior year in college. And then my twin brother Scott, who is my partner, and has been for over 40 years, he took an interview with what was the nucleus of our present firm actually. I just went up to Northern New Jersey in May of 1984 because I was an expert. I had been selling life insurance to college kids for six months, so I knew everything you had to know. We met with these guys, and we both ended up joining them. So that was a Northwestern Mutual district agency, and that was 1984. We got licensed right away. I got my CFP in ’86. We always knew that it was going to be about planning. So I think we had the right idea. We were a little ahead of the curve because there weren’t a lot of CFPs in ’86. We got securities license immediately. So before Northwestern had securities license, we got securities license with US Life actually. And then it was really a volume business, a client-building business. We always tried to act as a firm and share resources. We were small, but like a lot of people, we started out selling A shares and B shares and C shares, doing financial planning, selling insurance, and then we made a lot of really good hires along the way. And then after 30 years at Northwestern Mutual, which was a great experience for me, and I have nothing but respect for the institution and certainly the advisors that are there, Kevin certainly was one of them, and I know he feels the same way, but we just wanted to have a little more flexibility. We went independent about 11, almost 12 years ago. We wanted to be able to be multi-custodial. We wanted to have a little bit more optionality for our clients and for ourselves. We left Northwestern at three billion or so in assets, and that was in 2015. It’s in March of 2024, I get introduced to this guy with a crazy accent named Joe Duran. Funny, probably the only person in the industry that had no idea who Joe Duran was me. I’d never heard of Joe Duran. I don’t pay attention. I worry about our firm. I don’t worry about what’s going on outside. So I get introduced to Joe by a mutual friend, and we had an interesting conversation, and it took us probably about four or five months to figure out what we wanted to do. And then in August of ’24, myself and my three partners, we rolled in. And then in ’85, the rest of the firm rolled in. And we can talk a little bit more about that. Today we’re 18-plus billion, growing quite a bit. We’ve been very lucky that we’ve made some very good decisions along the way. We’ve made some bad ones too. But most of the decisions had to do with the people that we hired, the people that we brought on to help us, because I think it’s really important. I always say that the biggest mistake advisors make is they buy their own bullshit, and I try not to, and I realize that I’m smart enough, but I’m certainly not the smartest guy. I’m rarely the smartest guy in the room. So what we try to do is hire lots and lots of really smart people. And we’ve done that. They’ve been loyal to us, we’ve been loyal to them. Yeah, so we’re blessed to have a really great team and lots of good partners. Yeah. Louis Diamond: Yeah, we’ll definitely get into more of the nuts and bolts of the decision to take on capital, partner with Joe Duran’s Rise, but that’s an amazing background. Andy, I have to give you credit because your style, and I think I’m sure there’s business benefits, but it comes from a good place, I’m sure. But the coaching and consulting and just assistance that I’ve heard you provide to so many past and current Northwestern Mutual advisors through sports camps is absolutely incredible. It’s very near and dear to my heart because we always try to lead with education and helping people. So I just wanted to call that out, that your reputation for just providing amazing guidance and coaching to advisors is unparalleled. Andy Schwartz: And it’s been the best part of our journey. We’ve been able to help so many people. We get way too much credit by the way. So everybody gives us way too much credit. But the way I look at it is, I’ve been able to leverage my life because I’ve been able to build a great life for myself and my family, but we’ve been able to leverage that, and that’s where the real gift is. So yeah, it’s been a joyful journey for us. Louis Diamond: Amazing. Kevin, question for you. You walked through your little bit unorthodox background to get into Northwestern. Can you talk about where your personal practice is today? And then I want to ask you about the decision to leave Northwestern and sell and team up with Andy and team. Kevin Spahn: Well, I have to go back to the beginning. What was attractive to me about this business is I went from a career which was confrontational adversarial. I was a trial attorney for six years, and every day I would fight with people over things I didn’t necessarily have a personal interest in and I didn’t really believe in always. But the adversarial confrontational nature wasn’t really my personality, and I would take it too personally. So sometimes I’d go home in a bad mood because I was fighting with somebody taking a deposition. At night, after so many years as a trial attorney, I started going to people’s houses and doing wills and trusts. And that’s where the dynamic of working with a client or a potential client, feeling that you helped them and walking out of the meeting where they would appreciate what you did for them, and you build a relationship and actually all of a sudden have a friend, that dynamic was attractive to me. That’s really what got me to transition into the business. So I think it was really helpful to me at the beginning of this career. As Andy said, we all grew our businesses one client at a time. There’s a lot of doors closed, phones hung up on. There’s many people that don’t want to talk to you. There’s many people that don’t call you back. There’s many people that you think you’re getting somewhere with and you don’t. And that’s difficult for people because people often, young reps take that as personal rejection. I had the benefit of comparing what I was dealing with as a young financial planner to what I had dealt with as an attorney in litigation. I think it just was perspective that I knew I didn’t want to do that anymore. So the negatives to this business didn’t seem that bad to me. I loved the independence. I loved all the relationships that I was building. And that part of it is to this day my favorite part of the business. When you ask about the present, what basically happens is you start out taking anybody and everybody as a potential client or as someone that you would be willing to work with. And then over time you work with more successful people. So where I’m at today is working with pretty successful people, but they’re all the same, meaning we like working with nice people. If people are nice, we work with them. I feel we can help anybody. Over the years, one client at a time. The thing that I probably, if I could go back, would change is I think Andy and I are both good at meeting people and building trust and providing value, so that’s why they work with us. So I think that’s just something we’ve both been able to do. He’s much better than I am at building an organization. So I built an organization basically hiring people, that whenever we got too busy, I hired another person. Drawback in terms of that is, anybody that I interview I think is great, and I think they’d be great to join the organization. I like them all. In spite of that, I’ve also brought in many good people that I love. At this point, my firm has 18 people. We’re a little subset of Andy’s larger firm. I think one of the most attractive things to me about joining Andy’s firm is what Andy mentioned before: the people. As opposed to me having to build this all out myself, going independent, Andy already did that. And he has the infrastructure that would allow me to just merge right into that and not have to go through the pain of figuring all that out, which I don’t even think I’m capable of, to be honest with you. Louis Diamond: You’re probably selling yourself short because the way I understood it, you had one of the top practices within the entire Northwestern Mutual systems, and it’s a firm filled with very successful advisors. For you, Kevin, what was the driving force to leaving NM after all these years? What was bothering you or frustrating you that indicated to you that it was time to do something different? Kevin Spahn: To be honest with you, I was pretty happy at Northwestern Mutual. I love the company and the people. I still have many good friends there that I truly miss. The big thing for me, I don’t know if it was any one thing, to be honest with you, is Andy said there’s optionality, especially on the investment side. I think one of the things that happened to me is, when I first started, I was 31 years old, and most of the potential clients that I would meet and work with, they weren’t what I would call today great investment clients. They didn’t have a lot of money. They had great futures. They might’ve been earning significant income or on the way to earning significant income. So what did they need at that point in their life? They needed planning. They needed protection. They didn’t really need investment management because most of their investments were going into their 401(k). But a lot of those clients that we would take on, and I think that’s the big advantage of Northwestern Mutual, you take on clients that a lot of the investor firms don’t want because they don’t have large investment portfolios. But at some point down the road, all of a sudden you wake up and they do have large investment portfolios. So you bring them in as clients that might buy life insurance from you or disability insurance or something like that. And then you help them, and you give them advice, and you build a relationship with them. Down the road, they make more and more money. They leave jobs, they roll 401(k)s, they have the ability to invest money, stock options, things like that. Next thing you’re doing more comprehensive planning that incorporates investments. As that progresses even further, you work with larger and larger clients, much more significant net worth, more complexity, bigger tax issues. Some of the strategies and opportunities that we now have at this independent RIA are very attractive for these high-net-worth clients. Along the same lines, less of what I do at this point in my career is insurance, mostly because a lot of the people that I meet are older, they already bought insurance, they’re looking more for investment advice as opposed to insurance. So one of the things that most attracted me to Northwest Mutual was their strong insurance products, which helped me for many years. As time went on, I was doing less of that. Louis Diamond: Makes complete sense. So it was a changing of what clients wanted and just the circumstances of your clients where you said, “What got me here when I was 31 was insurance planning, and that’s what my clients needed. But as my practice has evolved, I’ve aged, my clients are older, have more money, the focus shifted from insurance to investments.” And then the distinction was, am I at the best place to run investments in addition to insurance planning, et cetera? It’s a very interesting dynamic. Just the shift in basically your legacy clients was what drove you to consider change. Kevin Spahn: That was a big factor. I think the second big factor was I had my own firm with 18 people. My succession plan was that at some point I would shift ownership of the firm to people that worked with me. So as they owned more of the firm, they would have revenue that was currently at the time being paid to me. In my mind, as it shifted to them, they would buy me out using revenue from the clients that we already had. And I realized that there were some issues with that. In our business, as you get older, in your client’s age, they start taking money out of their portfolios. So everyone understands that in our business, the younger average age client you have makes your book more valuable. I was the biggest driver of new business at my firm, and I started to see that there were some problems with my succession plan. They included, if something happened to me during this succession, that would be a real problem for the people that were buying my business from me if I went that way. If something happened to some of my key people, that would’ve been a problem as well. So it was really attractive to me to… I wasn’t looking to sell my business, I was looking to merge it. So I merged it with Andy’s business. I believe that Andy and what he’s put together and the actual idea of having partners. So I never really had partners, but now I do. Having partners that we’re all on the same page, we all have similar backgrounds, we all bring something different to the table, and we can learn and benefit from working with each other. But also, owning a little piece of a much larger firm was, number one, it put me in a better position in terms of the potential risk of something happening to me or one of my key people. But secondly, I just think it’s more likely to grow at a greater pace than my firm would’ve as I aged from my 60s to my 70s. Louis Diamond: Very interesting. It’s a great realization. I think it’s one that probably every firm owner grapples with at some point, is the romanticism or the ease, some would say, of an internal succession plan. Rewarding those who have helped you build the firm is something I think everyone is interested in. But once that’s put into practice, whether it’s because of capital or sky-high valuations or right people on the bus or risk, et cetera, nowadays oftentimes leads to a firm owner looking at a transaction, whether it’s a merger, a sale, a private equity, capital infusion as a means to solve for succession. So it’s a very interesting way you framed it. Andy, I want to turn it over to you for a little bit. So you mentioned when you launched Bleakley Financial, which was the old name of your firm, out of Northwestern, you’re about three billion. I think I read that you’re about 10 billion or so when Joe Duran and Rise invested you in 2024. You just said you’re at 18 billion now in the middle of 2026. That is absolutely incredible and amazing. Andy Schwartz: We’ll be well over 20 by the end of the year without any additional organic growth. Louis Diamond: That’s absolutely incredible. Andy Schwartz: We’ve got a lot going on right now. Louis Diamond: What’s actually driven that? What’s been the playbook? Andy Schwartz: The three areas that are most important for us, and we had our town hall this morning, and we always talk about the things we focus on as a group, the first and most important is the client experience. I always say to people, if you are their advisor, then that means someone else isn’t. These people, they all deserve to be really well taken care of. They deserve the best service, they deserve the best advice. So that’s something we take really personally. So client experience first. Then we also understand that we don’t just work for clients, we work for our advisors. So I have two jobs. I have, I don’t know, 500 clients I service with my team, and I work for Kevin and 36 other partners and all of our employees. Because again, I recognize that the decision Kevin made… We’re in the middle of a transition out with another advisor, and we pretty much talk to her every day, and I know how hard this is. A transition is so difficult. When you come from a good place, because any of the Northwestern advisor who joins, they’re coming from a good place, it’s not like they have to go anywhere, it’s difficult. So we have the massive responsibility that three or four or five or 10 years from now, that there better be hugs around that this was the best decision ever made or otherwise. That’s the kind of thing that keeps me up at night. So we’ve got to take care of our client experience, we’ve got to take care of our advisor experience. And then obviously, we’ve got to grow the firm so the firm grows organically. So part of this whole idea of serving our advisors is we have to help our advisors grow. I talk to a lot of people on the acquisition side, and if I’m talking to an advisor, it doesn’t matter how big they are, we kind of think of it as a OnePoint way. There’s flexibility in the OnePoint way. But if I can’t help them grow, I don’t want them, because I say it all the time, I’m not the mafia. I’m not here to get a taste. Louis, if you weren’t interested in joining us, if I thought that we could help you grow by doing that, then I want you bad. If I don’t think I can help you grow because we’re so different, or because you’re not going to adapt what we do, or there’s no leverage in it, or you’re already better than we are, I don’t want it. So for us, organic growth, number one, and I think you know the industries well enough, that’s got to be the key. We shoot for 10% organic growth. We’re at a little over 5% so far halfway through the year. So assuming we have the similar second half of the year, we’ll hit our 10. Last year we’re at 7.5%. The second is the inorganic growth. If you truly build a platform, if you truly build a firm that advisors know that they’ll be supported, that they’ll be loved, and you’ll help them grow their businesses, it does make it easier for us. We’re not the highest bidder typically. We can’t. We respect our client’s capital, we respect their equity, so therefore we’re not going to go out there. We’re not an aggregator, we’re a firm. But I think that if we can get that message across, and I think we have, then advisors join us. So that’s been a big part of the growth. And then the market’s helped. Obviously, over the last two years, the market’s been helpful. So that’s how we’ve gone from 10 to 18 and on our way to 22 by year-end. Louis Diamond: This is absolutely incredible. Any advisor or firm owner would say organic growth is important, but just saying it’s important doesn’t mean it’s going to happen. So what are the ways in which you help your advisors or your own practice grow organically? What is it that OnePoint is doing for your advisors? Andy Schwartz: Starting with bringing on growth-oriented advisors. I mean, look, Kevin Spahn and I come from the same place. We learned how to sell. The great thing about coming out of whether they’re broker dealers or out of the different insurance BDs is, these are people that know how to sell. These are people that don’t think that selling is a bad word. A lot of times you go to the wirehouses and they’re not necessarily sales guys. They’re really smart. They think that they’re investment mavens and investment geniuses. I’m not interested in investment geniuses. I’m interested in people that want to take care of their clients, provide everything they can, clients first, do the proper planning, be good advisors, but they’re growth-oriented. So as long as we’re talking with the right advisors. Again, if I’m talking to advisor and they might have a big practice, if they’re not growers, we’re not interested. There’s a sense of responsibility for all the partners because we are a true partnership. It’s not an aggregation. This is a firm. I’m responsible for Kevin. Kevin’s responsible to me. All of our partners are responsible to each other, because if we’re going to do a 10% organic growth target, and if some partner is negative 3%, we don’t put them through the spanking machine, but everybody is very aware of where everybody is and nobody wants to let their partners down. I think either you’re a growth-oriented advisor or you’re a zoo-fed bear. There’s another expression that I got from another Rise Growth Partner or Rise Growth firm. We all kind of communicate and talk to each other. And I was talking about zoo-fed bears, and he said, we call them house cats that think they fight. So they’re house cats, but they have no claws. But I think if you’re careful about who you bring on as partners, and if they are workers, growers, they understand that their job in life is to serve the people. We talk about referrals, we do lots of training to help on referrals. We work on organic growth strategies from the firm, but a lot of it comes from the advisors themselves. Louis Diamond: Makes sense. So it sounds like, to boil it down, it’s being really selective and having a really clear sense of who’s the right fit for your firm. Not that there’s not amazing advisors out there, but just because you’re an amazing advisor, doesn’t mean you’re the right fit to join OnePoint. Andy Schwartz: I think the one big distinction and difference is other than the fact that we are minority-owned with private equity. So we own our business. I mean, I’m the CEO of the firm. I also have the biggest book in the firm. At least for right now, I mean, Kevin was transitioning, so I’m sure next year he’ll be the leading advisor. But I lead the firm, because as far as I’m concerned, you have to lead by example. We are completely aligned. I know exactly what Kevin does every day because I do the same thing. I’m not some attorney or accountant or private equity boss that’s saying, “Oh, I’ve got an idea for growth. We’ll just raise our fees by 5%.” Brilliant. Yeah, we are completely aligned, all of us. I think that makes us a little bit unique, and it really helps us, I think, in our growth trajectory. Louis Diamond: I would agree. The challenge that a lot of advisors-turned-firm-owners or turned-enterprise-builders have is the tug of war between the client work, which either is their ultimate passion and driving force, or it’s something they’re really good at minimum, versus being the owner, the operator, et cetera. I resonate very much, Andy, with the way you handle it. I do the same thing running a company, but also working with advisors. To me, I need to do both in order to do my job well. But that tug of war is tough. So I’m curious, your firm is very large now, you’re a steward of external capital, and you have a $3 billion book yourself. How do you do it? How do you balance the two? Andy Schwartz: Well, fortunately, my kids are grown, so I’m not coaching sports anymore. So I do have a little more time than most. Look, we have a great team. So the idea that I run the firm… I mean, I lead the firm, I don’t run the firm. We have great partners. We have great… Our manager team is fantastic. So I mean, they really run the firm. But this is where my passion is for now. So I don’t mind. Days are typically pretty long. I don’t play golf during the week. Mara and I don’t travel probably as much as we should. Vacations are always a little bit mixed. There’s always room for calls and meetings and whatever. But to me, I mean, I’m grateful to be in this situation. I’m enjoying it. This is such a privilege to be the person that people recognize as the leader of this bunch, of this group. I mean, it is the honor of my life. So I don’t think of it so much as work. It’s my advocation. It does get busy. There are some times where I have to remind myself, “Just enjoy the ride.” I get a little overwhelmed, but I get lots of help and that makes it possible. Louis Diamond: Yep. If you’re not doing the job of the folks that you’re encouraging and leading to do, how do you have fodder to train them, to teach them, to empathize with that? Andy Schwartz: Exactly, you don’t have the credibility. I can ask them to do almost anything because they know I do it myself, and I think that helps. Louis Diamond: Yep. So moving more into the decision to bring on private equity capital, what I thought was probably the most interesting component of your announcement that you took on PE investment was that you completely restructured or reoriented your firm prior to Joe Duran coming in 2024. Correct me if I’m wrong, but Bleakley Financial Group was almost all 1099 contractors. So everyone owned their own books of business, paid Bleakley a fee or an override for certain services. But now, today, over 85% of your advisors and your AUM are W-2 employees, meaning you converted them from 1099 to acquiring them or merging with them. To me, that’s the dream. It’s had to have been very, very, very hard and challenging because there’s so many aggregator firms or platforms that support independent advisors, but the value that they’ve created is fairly minimal relative to one cohesive firm. So can you just talk about that decision, a very big and brave decision to go down the path of acquiring or merging with the practices rather than letting them continue to operate independently? Andy Schwartz: Well, look, we had to… It’s funny because we had been having conversations for years with consultants, and they kept telling us what we had to do. Again, we’re not that smart, so we just kept thinking, “No, we don’t have to do that.” But we were told 10 years earlier that the only way that this thing has any value to the world is you’ve got to have EBITDA for the firm. We talked to all the smart people, we ignored all of them. But what happened was we needed capital and we needed equity in order to bring people on, because people aren’t just joining us just because we can help them grow a bigger business. So the reason we went in the direction we went initially was we just needed capital. We wanted to grow the firm, and the only way we were going to get to is… What’s the old saying? What got us here is not going to get us there. So we needed capital. But we also realized that I had to have something I could sell in the marketplace. And people want equity. So they want cash, but they also want equity, because we’re talking to entrepreneurs. Kevin owned his own firm. He has $2 billion of assets. He wasn’t interested in being someone’s employee, but he was interested in being able to get leverage and be a partner and share equity in a larger firm that had the chance to grow even more. So what the gift that Joe Duran, the Rise folks gave us was that gift of structure and understanding. So that was really helpful, and that’s been a big part of our success. Louis Diamond: Yeah, it’s an amazing journey. Again, I think you could probably write a book or a case study on how that happened. I’m sure there were some downfalls, some people that weren’t all that excited about it, but the results speak for itself. Andy Schwartz: I think people ask all the time because I do get phone calls. People are trying to do this, and they’re struggling. It took us 90 days to basically do it. People say, “I’ve been at this for two years.” And the biggest issue is trust. Either they trust you or they don’t. At the end of the day, I always went to the advisor here, we were a firm for 30-plus years prior, and these guys knew that we always did what we said we were going to do, and we always did. If your people trust you, then you can do it. If your people don’t trust you, it isn’t going to work. Louis Diamond: In other words, your firm added immense value to the advisors as well. Aside from trust, if you weren’t providing a service or services that they found a value that they couldn’t access on their own, it would’ve been 85/15 going the other way for sure. Andy Schwartz: Yeah, 100%. I know it’s not easy, but it wasn’t that hard for us. Louis Diamond: Good. It’s well-earned. So I believe you were Rise Growth Partners’ first investment. Andy Schwartz: We were. Louis Diamond: That’s cool. It’s exciting. You get to be someone’s first, but did it make you uncomfortable that you were the first investment or did you see that as a positive? Andy Schwartz: I actually saw it as a positive. Well, one, because I recognized immediately that Joe Duran and his team were way smarter than we were certainly, and certainly with what we were trying to do. And I figured that it’s almost like the first child. They were so excited to have somebody, and there was so much time and energy, so they just really doted on us. They were really able to help us. Now they’ve got four or five groups that they work with, and obviously we’ve been launched. So the younger babies are getting more time and attention, although we get everything that we need from them. But yeah, that never concerned me. I always thought that would be our advantage. It actually turned out that way. Louis Diamond: Interesting. In thinking through a sale or a minority sale, did you entertain other types of capital, whether it was a family office or a multitude of other private equity sponsors or selling the firm outright? Andy Schwartz: Yeah, we probably had four or five very, very serious conversations. Actually, some got pretty close to the end where we basically just made the decision not to do it. One was a much larger firm, good people. But the problem always was… I was always going to get rich out of the deal because it was going to be 100% sale, but there was really no lift or leverage from the advisors. So the principals, they were willing to pay me a big multiple and my partners a big multiple, and pay these guys basically an average multiple. So we had always told our guys, “Let’s stay together, and someday, this thing, whatever it’s going to turn into be, will benefit everyone.” So with the Duran situation and the deal with Rise did, it gave everybody a chance to benefit from what we were doing. But what was good about all of those false starts was, it taught me a lot because I had… I know you’re involved in this, so you know better than I do, but we’d start conversations, somebody would reach out to me, I would be very specific about what I needed. They would say, “Yep, we can do that.” And then you get to the finish line, and it’s almost like, I started out, I wanted a tomahawk steak and a baked potato, and I ended up getting a two-day-old hamburger with some cold French fries. It’s like, I know I’m not that smart and I know you’re the PE guys, but for God’s sakes, we’re not stupid. So it was funny because in January of ’24, I told my partners, “I don’t want to have any more of these conversations. It was a waste of time and energy. I’m sick of talking to these people. Let’s just put our heads down, and then let’s grow the firm a little bit more, and then we’ll see what the world looks like.” And then I get introduced to Duran. Louis Diamond: Perfect. Makes sense. Yeah, so you were well-educated on the market, the types of buyers, and I always say it’s almost more important to understand what you don’t want more than what you do want. The only way oftentimes to understand what you don’t want is to experience it and touch and feel it and really get into the weeds on it. I like too, Andy, I saw in an article, you said that “we’re private equity invested, we’re not private equity owned,” which is a very cool dynamic. I could imagine why that was important to you to retain majority control. Kevin, I want to bring you back into the conversation. Thank you for being patient here. But I mean, I would imagine you had some real choices. I mean, you could have stayed at Northwestern and been very successful, gone through with your internal succession plan. You could have gone to an independent BD, monetized, figured out succession later. You could have sold the business to a strategic acquirer. You were big enough to take on an investor in some capacity on your own. So options wasn’t your problem. Maybe just walk us through. Did you consider any other pathways? And what were the pros and cons in your mind that led you to doing a transaction with Andy? Kevin Spahn: I’m a little different, I think, than most people in this industry. Even as you grow your business at a certain percentage, none of that stuff has ever really meant anything to me. All I know is I like what I do. So when I came into the business, because I like it, I enjoy it, I spend time doing it, I’ve tried to get better at it. But it comes naturally because it’s something that I don’t look at Monday mornings as, “Oh, no, it’s Monday morning.” I’m excited to go to work. My entire career, once I left law, my business has just grown over the years naturally. But you said something before, Louis, and I think this applies to me. I love to work with the clients. I don’t like what I have to do in terms of running the firm. I never have. It’s never been my cup of tea, but you have to do it if you run a firm. So number one, the thought of all the due diligence that I would have to do to research all the firms out there, I wasn’t really all that interested in doing that. At the end of the day, it comes down to this word trust. I trust Andy. I trust the other partners here too, because I’ve known not just Andy, but I’ve known Scott and many of the other partners for years. So I knew what I was getting myself into. At the end of the day, I knew what they built. I was very comfortable with it, and I was either going to stay at Northwestern Mutual or I was going to come here, but I wasn’t going to go anywhere else. I will say, since I’ve gone, it’s been exactly like I thought. I thought I trusted Andy. And if something happened along the way with the transition, everything that he said has been true, thing that he promised is real. As you deal with more complexities with a bigger book and more and more employees, I knew that I was almost at the breaking point in terms of my own organization and to merge into this organization that, as I said before, he’s already built out. I don’t have to do it. And to benefit from these great people that he has as part of his organization, that’s all been a real blessing for me and my team. So I didn’t shop the marketplace really, but I knew what I was getting into, and it’s worked out clear as I thought it would. Louis Diamond: That’s amazing. I think that’s what most people would covet. But it is a decision in and of itself to not shop the marketplace. I mean, from representing buyers or prospective buyers, I know the pricing leverage or the negotiation leverage and the valuation lift that comes from having an open market, having multiple bids, et cetera. It sounds like that wasn’t the… Obviously you wanted to get fair value for your firm, but for you, it was more, it’s trust, “I’m either going to just stay at Northwestern, which is the devil I know or it’s what I’ve known where I’ve been successful, or I’m going to go to the individual that I trust and forget about all the other noise.” Kevin Spahn: Well, Andy says things, but I know they’re true because I’ve seen him at work. I’ve seen how he’s acted. I’ve seen how he interacts with people. But here’s an example. He cares about the people that are at his firm. He says that, but I know it’s true because I see it. I’m the same. I really care about the people in my firm. So as I think about, well, what about the future of two groups, my clients, but also the people that work in my firm? They’re going to be around long after I am. Well, I don’t want myself to retire someday, get a big check, because there’s all sorts of options to get a check. If I get a check and then my client’s scatter to the wind, and my employees don’t really have a future and they just have to go and find their own way, that wasn’t attractive at all to me. So one of the things that I really appreciate about this opportunity is that there is a plan for both my clients and my employees or the younger team members at formerly Spahn Financial, where I feel very good about the fact that they have a solid, secure future in an industry that they’ve all grown to love without them having to go out and make their own way. Louis Diamond: Makes sense to me. We noted a couple of times in this interview, you talked about equity, partnership, both of you have. So Kevin, for you, what did it mean differently for you to become a partner and get equity in a larger firm rather than, we’ll say, the less risky move of just taking everything in cash? Why was that an important distinction for you? Kevin Spahn: For many years, when I left law and came into this business, I didn’t have any money at the time. I was just starting to make money as a lawyer. It takes a while. I started low. I got trial experience working for the government, so they didn’t pay much. That was three years. Then I was at a firm, and I was just starting to make more money. Then I made this big shift into a career that was all commissions. Well, even with what I thought was good early success, it took years till I really had any money in the bank or till I could actually tell my wife what we had in the bank because I really didn’t want her to know before promoting with her. But I never was really worried about the future because I could see what it looked like. I also knew that I loved what I did every day, and I knew what it would lead to. It’s always been a part of my own career path that I got to the point somewhere along the way where I knew I had enough money. Somewhere along the way, I realized I could retire if I wanted to. Here’s the good news. I don’t want to. I like what I do. So it really wasn’t about the biggest check or anything like that. But when I go back to this analysis, well, how did I bring in business before? If you do a good job and the clients appreciate the work you do, they refer you to their friends. So that would happen. That’s how we grew our business. But as I think about, “Well, I now have two grandchildren. I’d like to spend time with them. I have four children. They’re all going to get married and have kids,” I see over the next whatever, 10 or 15 years, I will want more flexibility. Andy and I both work pretty long hours right now. Won’t have the time for that. So what’ll happen? Well, at some point, I think the new business generation will slow down a little bit. And as I said before, as our clients age, some of the money starts coming out, that all affects the value of your book. I feel pretty comfortable that the combination of what we’re doing and all my partners and then this firm that Andy’s built, I think that the growth will be pretty strong over the next 5, 10 years. So part of my thought process was I’m trusting in that and I’m buying into that. At the end of the day, I’m comfortable that the combination of what this is going to ultimately do for my clients and then my team, and then the value of my ownership compared to what I would’ve done on my own, the combination of it all is a really good solution for where I was a year ago. Louis Diamond: That sounds like it. I mean, I feel like the equity ownership dynamic, especially equity in a firm other than yourself, it’s either something that advisors get really charged up about because they see what you saw, Kevin. “I’m diversifying. It’s not just my growth, it’s everyone’s growth, that this asset, this equity has the ability to grow and scale quicker, more efficiently than just me.” At the same time, it’s probably the hardest decision for folks to step over the threshold and say, “I’ve been responsible for my growth, the value of my firm. If they’re independent already, I decide distributions, who to hire, et cetera. It’s for better or worse, it’s me and I’ve trusted myself.” So just getting comfortable with equity in someone else and taking your hands off the wheel a little bit is not something that everyone gets comfortable with. But it sounds like, for you, it was the absolute right decision for all the reasons you laid out. Kevin Spahn: You just laid it out perfectly. Years ago, I was going to bring in a junior partner. I was working with this guy, I was training him, teaching him, and he was planning on joining my firm as a junior partner. And then he started asking me what I paid everybody and why I paid these people that much money. I realized right then and there, the last thing I want to do is bring on someone who’s going to own 10% of my firm, and then they’re going to start complaining about what I pay everybody else. I didn’t want to have to make that decision with anybody. It is a special person that I would ever be comfortable becoming a partner with. There are obviously many partners in this firm, but it comes down to the fact that my relationship with Andy as the managing partner and he has a lot of the influence in the firm. It really is trust. And I’ll say, my wife has known Andy a long time, and she trusts him as well. So for years, she would ask me, “What about Andy?” We would talk here and there about his firm, and she’s always been very comfortable with Andy and this potential move. Louis Diamond: There we go. Yeah, the actual decision dynamic was, your wife was comfortable. Kevin Spahn: Exactly. She was my secret weapon the whole time. Louis Diamond: There we go. Andy, I can guess the answer just from doing this conversation, but when you bought Kevin, I don’t know if it’s still true, but at the time, at least, he was your largest deal, and it was the first time you’re entering the Chicagoland area. What was it about Kevin and his practice that made you get to a yes? Andy Schwartz: Listen, I’ve talked to Kevin. I mean, Kevin and I stayed in touch. So for the 11 years, one of the few advisors that I maintained a real relationship with was Kevin. I never really thought he would join me, but I couldn’t help myself because Kevin was the best advisor in the system and the best person in the system. Truth is, I think Kevin did what he did as much as anything. If it was a good financial decision, he wanted to be able to give more money away someday. That’s how Kevin operates. So I’ve always been just a huge fan. I would tease him. When I would joke with him, I would always ask him, “So when are we going to come partners?” And we’ve had our own inside joke, which we’re working on right now, right, Kev, which we’ll work on later this afternoon. So we’ve always had our deal. And then I got to tell you, it was probably, it’s still sometimes I wake up, and I can’t believe how fortunate that he actually did it. So yeah, forgetting about size, I mean, yeah, huge practice, our biggest acquisition, Chicago’s a great market, but I mean, it’s a one in a million. It was hard for him because the Northwestern Mutual didn’t want to lose him. So it was a very difficult decision because I think everybody felt the same way. So no, we’re blessed to have him. His team, he’s got a great team, made our firm better, and this is the best part of the journey for me. Louis Diamond: Amazing. Two more questions for you guys. I’m going to let you get on with your busy days. This would be for either or both of you. So for a Northwestern Mutual advisor, or let’s say any advisor within an insurance BD or who has some sort of proverbial golden handcuffs, whether it’s insurance renewals or pension or a very large unvested deferred compensation balance, really you can pick anything, many of these folks think they’re stuck. Might be unhappy. They might see promise elsewhere, but they can’t reconcile leaving something behind. Another example would be mutual fund trails through proprietary products or a bunch of alts where the trails aren’t going to carry over. What is it you’d want those individuals to understand about what’s actually possible or the mindset of leaving something behind to go run towards something else? Andy Schwartz: Well, I mean, look, the issue is… Look, there’s a number that can be too big to make sense to never leave. So people could be truly stuck. Renewals run out. And as you do less premium as you get older, the renewals get smaller. So renewals to me are a non-issue. I always like to talk to advisors of how much bigger. Our thing is we think we can grow your practice twice as fast and half the time. So if that’s true, and if you believe that’s true, then there’s math on that side, and you just compare the math to what you’re losing. Everybody that we’ve brought on, everybody makes more money, and they’ve more than made up for what they give up. That doesn’t mean though that someone doesn’t have such a golden handcuff or some program that is so substantial. By the way, we do the math. I wouldn’t suggest they do it. If somebody were going to be upside down millions of dollars five years from now by joining me, I don’t want them to join me because they shouldn’t. They should do what’s best for them and their families. But we find that if we really look at the math, we really look at the growth, we look at the growth and the equity, we look at the leverage. The difference is they do not work at firms. They work at institutions, and they’re good institutions, all of them. They’re good people, they’re good institutions, but they’re not firms. They have to build their own firm with an institution. It’s very costly. Their margins are much, much worse. We have great margins. Our partners have great margins of their P&Ls because they’re able to leverage an actual firm. So that’s a big difference. Whenever I talk to these people, I mean, you might build a firm within the institution, but you are not part of a firm. We are a firm. Everybody runs a P&L, they run a book inside a firm because we are a firm. I think that’s a big difference. Everybody’s going to make the decision for themselves. Louis Diamond: Interesting. Andy, I lied because you just sparked another question before my last one. Where do you plot OnePoint on the spectrum, let’s say, of conformity? So on the one hand, you have just someone’s operating completely independently, call shots, no outside capital. All the way to the very, very right would be, all investment portfolios are the same. Everyone’s the same brand. Advisors are basically relationship managers. Where would OnePoint be on the spectrum, and why is that decision important to you? Andy Schwartz: Yeah, I would say we’re probably somewhere in the middle. Everybody’s the same brand. That’s a deal breaker for us. Either you’re going to be a OnePoint partner or you’re not, or a OnePoint tenant or you’re not. Because I’m an advisor, I recognize that everybody comes to a firm or they come to a situation with legacy assets. They come with legacy assets that have taxes. They come with legacy relationships. So we’re not unrealistic, but we also recognize that centralized service is the key both for the value of the firm and the future and for the value and the way they operate within their businesses, grow their businesses. So I would say that it’s a little bit of a struggle. It’s always anything that we do, there has to be a why. You don’t just say, “Okay, everybody is now in this program, and this is what we do.” You better have a why. If you’re going to force people into something, it better be really good because it’s got to be able to be better for them than for them not to be in that. So we have the CSA desk. We don’t force them, but 80% of our advisors are on the CSA desk. Same with the think tank. My guys, they all want to shoot for 100%. I said, “Great, we’ll shoot for 100%.” It will never be mandatory unless it is so good that it’s more cost-effective and it’s better than they can do on their own. When my team can prove that’s true, then we’ll become more restrictive. But until then, we serve these advisors for the idea that we would shove things down their throats. It’s not going to happen. By the way, growth-oriented advisors are entrepreneurial. I don’t want zoo-fed bears. I want growth-oriented, entrepreneurial advisors. But at the same time, they can’t be the Wild West either. It’s because it detracts from value, and it makes it impossible to run a business. It makes it impossible to really leverage the opportunity. So I would say we’re probably somewhere in the middle. Louis Diamond: I would agree. It’s like a gentler form of one team, one dream, while still leaving some entrepreneurial freedoms in the hands of your high growth non-zoo-fed-bear advisors. Andy Schwartz: Yeah. Be realistic about what’s possible, what you’re asking them to do. I mean, these guys have to be able to do what’s best for their clients and selling all their assets and paying taxes, because this is the way we run a portfolio, is completely unacceptable. So all the constituents have to be considered. Louis Diamond: Perfect. Last question for each of you, parting thoughts. If you were speaking to yourself, so Kevin, back before you merged with Andy back 12-ish years ago, before you left Northwestern to launch Bleakley Financial, now called OnePoint, what is it that you would want to tell yourself? Or put another way, what would you tell the yous that are still captive to some sort of institution? Andy Schwartz: Kevin, why don’t you go first? Kevin Spahn: So what would I tell myself? I guess it goes back to what I said before. It’s all about, do you love what you do or not? I’ve always loved what I do. And I tell every potential new client that three things have to be present for you to work with me. Number one, you have to trust me. If you don’t trust me, it’s not going to work. You’re not going to stick with the plan. But if you do trust the advisor, that’s not necessarily enough. People trusted Bernie Madoff, but look where it got them. So you have to trust them. You have to see that they provide value. And if they don’t provide value, I don’t know why you would pay them. And then the third one, which I almost call a get-out-of-jail-free card, is you have to be on the same page with them philosophically. You have to trust them, you have to provide value, and you need to be on the same page philosophically. So as I think back to myself 12 years ago, all I would realize is that I know things now that I didn’t know them. Part of the reason is that Andy talked about my team. I brought on some people in the last 12 years that I was basically following Andy’s lead. They know more than I do. We have several CFAs in our firm. I have a guy, his name’s Tim Funke. He was a portfolio manager at Northern Trust for 12 years before I hired him. When he left Northern Trust, he was working with families of 250 million or more liquid net worth. He’s great, and he’s been with me for 10 years. He’s a partner in our firm too. It has really helped me provide more value for my clients. If I go back 12 years, I would just say associate yourselves with the best people you can, whether you bring them into your firm or this example of me joining with Andy’s firm. It accelerates your trajectory in ways that you can’t do on your own. Louis Diamond: Fantastic. Andy, same question for you. Andy Schwartz: Yeah. I would say, I like to go back 42 years and say, thank you, Andy, for the late nights chasing down $500 a year premiums, taking, I don’t know, Kev, is it fair to say five, six, seven years to break even net worth? I mean, to first dig out of the hole and then to actually… Because I don’t think I was telling Jodi that I had any money in the bank for at least six or seven years. And then I would say, if I look back 12 years, I’m grateful that we had the courage to do it because sometimes… I would say my brother Scott was a big part of it because he really had more conviction. I was benefiting more from being in the Northwestern system with all the joint work. But I’m just grateful that we had the courage because it’s hard to do and that we did it, because I mean, it has worked out so well for us. I mean, not just financially, but I love the work we do. I love what we can provide for our clients. I love the flexibility. I like to say to people that I haven’t had a fight professionally in 12 years, and I used to have fights all the time. They were friendly fights. I mean, they were good people, and I know they did the best they could, but we were constantly fighting about what we couldn’t do. We were constantly… And I don’t do that anymore. That hasn’t been part of my life for so long, so I’ve become like a spoiled brat. I don’t have to fight with anybody. Louis Diamond: That’s amazing. Andy Schwartz: People always ask like, “Do you regret not doing it sooner?” And I would say probably not because it was a great run for us and great firm, a great institution, I met great people. And everything worked out really well. So would we have been bigger sooner? Maybe, but I have no regrets about that. That’s not really an issue for me. Louis Diamond: Absolutely amazing. This has been so much fun, guys. I love the dynamic and the personal relationship and all the trust that you’ve built. Andy, I can’t believe what you’ve accomplished. I mean, you were very successful and Northwestern famous when you’re on our show a couple of years ago. But just the level of growth, the conviction and what you’re doing, the way you’ve converted 1099s to W-2s and partners and just where you’re headed from here is really a treat. Honestly, I almost look at it as a case study for how to build an enterprise. And, Kevin, I really appreciate your candor for sharing behind the scenes of your decision to make the big decision to not just leave Northwestern, but also merge your firm and kind of take your hands off the wheel a little bit. Andy Schwartz: Well, my pleasure. It’s great to see you again, Louis, and happy to talk anytime. Mindy Diamond: As a financial advisor, you hold yourself to the highest standards of integrity, honesty, and credibility. You are successful because you take your professional responsibilities seriously and are dedicated to your clients. But are you living your best business life? Are your goals aligned with your firms or could a better option exist? Should I Stay or Should I Go? Is a book written with you in mind? It’s a self-guided journey that walks you through the key steps that we take with our advisor clients. This strategic thought process and roadmap to professional self-discovery is designed to help you ask the right questions and think critically and objectively, whether you’re considering change or not. Learn how to get your copy at diamond-consultants.com/thebook.

    58min
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  3. Number 3: Growth Without Compromise: Building Around the Advisor Experience

    Shannon Spotswood – CEO, RFG Advisory Choosing a platform isn’t just about technology or economics. It’s about finding a partner that helps you build the business you actually want to own. Shannon Spotswood explains why growth without compromise starts with choosing the right partner. In Summary What should advisors really look for in a platform partner? Jason Diamond sits down with Shannon Spotswood, CEO of RFG Advisory, to discuss why the best platforms do more than provide technology and operational support—they help advisors build stronger businesses. Shannon shares lessons from helping grow RFG into one of the industry’s leading supportive independence firms, covering everything from private equity partnerships and advisor experience to enterprise value, branding, and overcoming the fear that keeps many advisors from pursuing the business they truly want. The Storyline Most advisors evaluating independence compare technology, payouts, and service offerings. Shannon Spotswood believes they’re asking the wrong first question. After spending two decades in institutional investing and later helping to rebuild RFG Advisory from the ground up, Shannon has developed a philosophy centered on partnership. She argues that the best platforms function less like vendors and more like long-term business partners, helping advisors spend more time with clients, build enterprise value, and create businesses aligned with their vision rather than forcing compromises. Jason and Shannon discuss what meaningful support actually looks like, why the right private equity partner can accelerate growth rather than restrict it, and why advisors should demand evidence – not marketing promises – when evaluating a platform. The conversation also explores one of the industry’s biggest obstacles to change: fear. Shannon explains why outdated assumptions about transitioning firms continue to prevent advisors from building businesses they enjoy, even though data suggests the experience is often far less disruptive than many believe. Ultimately, the discussion reframes independence itself—not as the destination, but as the beginning of choosing the right long-term partners. Topics Covered Evaluating advisor platforms as long-term business partners Building an independent business without compromise Enterprise value and organic growth Private equity as a strategic growth partner Advisor experience and client experience Branding and authenticity in wealth management Overcoming fear and transition myths Technology, outsourcing, and operational leverage Leadership, succession, and organizational growth The future of supportive independence > Download a transcript of this episode… Listen and Learn Highlights for Advisors Why should advisors think of a platform as a business partner? (10:00) Shannon explains why technology and service alone aren’t enough—and why the right partner should help advisors build the business they ultimately want to own. What does “growth without compromise” actually mean? (10:00–17:30) RFG’s philosophy centers on helping advisors focus on their highest-value work while surrounding them with integrated support designed to drive enterprise value. Can private equity make a firm better? (25:00) Rather than debating whether private equity is good or bad, Shannon explains why success depends on choosing a partner whose values and long-term vision align with yours. How should advisors evaluate competing platforms? (43:00) Her advice is simple: don’t rely on marketing. Speak with advisors already using the platform and ask firms to demonstrate – not simply promise – how they solve problems. Why does fear keep so many advisors from making a change? (48:30) Shannon discusses the “PTSD” many advisors carry from outdated transition stories and why today’s reality often looks very different. What does the future of advisor platforms look like? (34:00–42:00) The conversation explores advisor demand for greater personalization, stronger brands, AI-enabled efficiency, and partners that help advisors grow without sacrificing independence. Key Takeaways The best advisor platforms function as long-term strategic partners—not simply service providers. Enterprise value grows when advisors spend more time serving clients and less time managing operations. Private equity can be highly beneficial when partners share a common vision and respect management autonomy. Advisors should evaluate firms based on demonstrated execution rather than marketing claims. Fear remains one of the biggest barriers to advisor movement despite significant improvements in transition support. Authentic branding and deeper client relationships will become increasingly important as AI reshapes wealth management. https://youtu.be/jaSt3-mO0so Quotable Moments “The right partners make you better. The wrong ones can quietly hold you back.” “Don’t tell me. Show me.” “Everything you want is on the other side of fear.” “Your team deserves to be happy. You deserve to be happy.” FAQs What should advisors look for when evaluating an advisor platform? Shannon believes advisors should look beyond technology and economics and evaluate whether a platform acts like a true long-term business partner that helps them grow and build enterprise value. How does RFG define “growth without compromise”? By providing integrated support – from technology and compliance to marketing and coaching – that allows advisors to spend more time with clients while maintaining control of their businesses. Is private equity always good or bad for advisor firms? No. Shannon argues that success depends less on private equity itself and more on choosing partners who share the firm’s long-term vision and values. Why do advisors hesitate to make a move? Fear and outdated perceptions about transitions still influence decision-making, even though today’s transition experience is often much smoother than advisors expect. How should advisors compare competing platforms? Talk directly with affiliated advisors, ask for measurable evidence of results, and focus on how a platform responds to advisor feedback rather than marketing claims. How is AI changing advisor businesses? AI should enhance – not replace – the advisor relationship by creating operational efficiencies that allow advisors to spend more time delivering personalized advice. Shannon believes advisors should look beyond technology and economics and evaluate whether a platform acts like a true long-term business partner that helps them grow and build enterprise value. By providing integrated support – from technology and compliance to marketing and coaching – that allows advisors to spend more time with clients while maintaining control of their businesses. No. Shannon argues that success depends less on private equity itself and more on choosing partners who share the firm’s long-term vision and values. Fear and outdated perceptions about transitions still influence decision-making, even though today’s transition experience is often much smoother than advisors expect. Talk directly with affiliated advisors, ask for measurable evidence of results, and focus on how a platform responds to advisor feedback rather than marketing claims. AI should enhance – not replace – the advisor relationship by creating operational efficiencies that allow advisors to spend more time delivering personalized advice. Related Resources How to Evaluate a Firm Beyond the Obvious: A Framework for Advisors Why You Should Stay at Your Current Firm Shannon SpotswoodCEO Shannon Spotswood is a 25+ year industry veteran with a tremendous amount of experience across both retail and institutional finance and an outstanding reputation built on her passionate leadership and ongoing success in investment banking, hedge fund portfolio management, business development and retail wealth management. Joining RFG in 2015, Shannon recognized the opportunity to channel her entrepreneurial experience and passion for service into leading a mission to create an Advisor-focused RIA of the Future delivering a supported independence platform that empowers Financial Advisors to build the businesses they want to have, without compromise. Shannon’s career has been characterized by her determination to build something bigger than herself. Having fallen in love with finance at only age 14, she was focused on making an impact in a male-dominated industry. After graduating from college, Shannon spent 20 years in San Francisco working in institutional finance. She began her career in investment banking and eventually achieved her dream job as a Portfolio Manager of a long- short equity fund at Symphony Asset Management. The company was acquired by Nuveen in 2001. After a decade at that firm and now a mother of 3 young children, Shannon turned her entrepreneurial passion in a new direction with a drastic pivot to start a luxury children’s clothing brand, Busy Bees. Taking her years of experience in qualitative analysis of retail companies, Shannon and her business partner built the brand from the ground up, ushering its’ growth from a garage to “Gwyneth Paltrow’s Goop” over the course of a few years. Shannon and her family made the decision to move from the Bay Area to Birmingham, Alabama to be closer to family. And shortly after, the call to return to her first love, finance, grew to great to ignore. In 2015, Shannon joined RFG Advisory as President, leading RFG as the firm has grown from $1.8B to over $5B. In July of 2024, Shannon was named CEO of RFG Advisory and currently serves in that role. NOTE: The views and opinions expressed by the guests on this podcast are their own and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of Diamond Consultants. Neither Diamond Consultants nor the guests on this podcast are compensated in any way for their participation. View the transcript of this episode… Growth Without Compromise: Building Around the Advisor Experience A conversation with Jason Diamond and Shannon Spotswood, CEO of RFG Advisory. Jason Diamond: Welcome to the latest episode of our podcast series for Financial Advisors. Today’s episode is Growth Without Compromise: Building Around the Advisor Experience. It’s a conversation with Shannon Spotswood, the CEO of RFG Advisory. I’m Jason Diamond, and this is the Diamond Podcast for Financial Advisors. Mindy Diamond: At Diamond Consultants, we help elite advisors identify the right environment for their businesses to thrive, whether that’s at a wirehouse, boutique, or independent firm. With nearly three decades of experience, we’ve guided thousands of advisors and represented more than a quarter of a trillion dollars in assets transitioned. And each year, one in four advisors managing a billion dollars or more who change firms are our clients. Our process is education-driven and based on building relationships, starting as your strategic partner well before you’re even thinking of a move. To schedule a confidential conversation, call us at 908-879-1002. Wondering why advisors change firms and where they’re headed? Are transition deals going up or down? Those very questions and more inspired us to create our annual advisor transition report. It’s the award-winning data-driven resource designed for advisors that connects the dots between the motivations around movement and the firm’s appetite for top talent. Arm yourself with the knowledge you need to make smart decisions. Download your copy at diamond-consultants.com/transitionreport. Jason Diamond: The right partners make you better. The wrong ones can quietly hold you back. Most conversations about independence focus on platforms as providers of technology, service, or infrastructure. Shannon Spotswood sees them differently. She believes advisors should evaluate a platform the same way they’d evaluate any long-term business partner, by asking whether it will help them build the kind of firm they ultimately want to own. That’s exactly what we explore in this episode. Shannon is the CEO of RFG Advisory, a firm that has grown from a startup into one of the industry’s leading supportive independence platforms. Along the way, she’s developed a unique perspective on what advisors should be looking for beyond economics and technology, and why the right partner can accelerate growth, strengthen culture, and help create a business that’s built to last. It’s a conversation that goes well beyond advisor platforms. We explore why Shannon believes so strongly in growth without compromise, what private equity can look like when the partnership is aligned, why firms shouldn’t try to be everything to everyone, and how advisors can separate marketing promises from meaningful support. We also spend time on a topic that comes up in nearly every transition conversation my team has with advisors, fear. Shannon shares her perspective on why outdated assumptions about making a move continue to hold advisors back and why asking better questions and demanding evidence instead of promises can fundamentally change the way advisors evaluate every opportunity in front of them. Whether you’re considering independence, evaluating your current platform, or simply thinking about what comes next for your business, I think you’ll find Shannon’s perspective both practical and though-provoking, especially the sage advice in her words, “Don’t tell me, show me.” There’s a lot to take away from this conversation, so let’s get to it. Shannon, thanks so much for joining me. Thrilled to have you here. Shannon Spotswood: It’s excellent to be here. I’m really looking forward to it. Jason Diamond: Me too. Let’s dive right in. I want to start with your background. You spent 20 years in San Fran as an investment banker, then as a portfolio manager at Symphony Asset Management before even touching the world of wealth management. So what made you walk away from, we’ll call it the institutional world and enter the world of wealth management? Shannon Spotswood: It’s a little bit of a circuitous story, but I’m going to take us on the short route. I fell in love with Wall Street as a teenager, so I knew I wanted to work on Wall Street. My dream job was actually the time that I spent at Symphony Asset Management. I was a hedge fund manager for them for six years running a long/short equity fund. I then had three children in three and a half years. The firm was acquired by Nuveen Investments, and we grew very large, and I was on this really interesting trajectory within the institutional investment management world. And somewhat of the unexpected happened to me in 2010, we’d come through the financial crisis. I looked around the room, I had these three young children, and having loved finance since a very early age, I couldn’t crawl on an airplane anymore. I fell out of love with what was honestly my first love. And I made a pretty radical pivot. I left Symphony, the tallest building at the time in San Francisco, and I partnered with a woman, and we built a luxury children’s clothing company for the next three years. So about as radical of a move as you can make, a $30 billion firm, big team, a tremendous growth ahead of us to upside down boxes of infant cashmere in a garage that flooded when it rained. So I had my startup in a garage moment. And while I was running the children’s clothing company, my husband and I took a big leap of faith and decided to move from San Francisco to Birmingham, Alabama to get closer to family, to raise our kids in the South, and just manifest the life that we wanted. In the third year of running the kids’ clothing business, we checked every box of our initial business plan, and I turned to my business partner and I was like, “Now what? Should we raise capital? Should we open stores? Should we diversify manufacturing?” And we realized this beautiful little luxury brand that we had created was exactly what it needed to be. And so we restructured the company and I punched out of that. And I spent, really for the first time in my life, about five months in deep contemplation. What was the first hedge fund that I was a part of in San Francisco, my tour of duty through investment banking as an analyst associate and helping them start an M&A group. This incredible decade that I’d spent at Symphony, and then this wild out of left field moment of building a luxury children’s clothing brand. And it had such an epiphany, Jason. And it was this, that I was on the ground floor of all of those businesses. And my aha moment was, oh my gosh, I’m a builder. What I love more than anything is sitting at the intersection of talent and opportunity and what I think is truly one of life’s greatest gifts, and certainly I think the most fun way to live your professional life, which is building something. So I put my resume together and I titled… It wasn’t even really a job search. It was more, I was new to Birmingham. I wondered if there was anything I could be of service in being a part of building something. So I put that resume together and I titled it Seeking the Intangible. And I was looking for that opportunity of talent and building something bigger than myself. And it was through some networking with my across the street neighbor who went on to become a board member of RFG who thought all I did was sell his wife incredibly expensive clothing who networked me to Bobby White, who’s the founder of RFG. And in the first 10 minutes of my conversation with Bobby, and I’ll tell you, both of us went into that meeting thinking it was going to be a filler meeting. He was doing a favor for a friend, and I had seen a little bit of the wealth management industry after Nuveen had acquired Symphony and was like, “That’s not really my bag. My jam is more on the institutional side of things.” And 10 minutes into our very first meeting, we both canceled the rest of our day, and we spent the next two and a half hours in his office having a conversation that really started with what if. What if we took RFG, which had been founded in 2003, and at the time was an OSJ with LPL, what if we took that business and we tore it all the way down to the ground? And we rebuilt it from the ground floor up to be a platform that is designed, that is intentionally engineered, to serve independent advisors? What would it look like to be a client experience company first, a technology company second, and a corporate RIA third? And I’ll tell you, walking out of that meeting, I was like, “This is it. This is it. This is the intangible. This is an opportunity to really build something very special.” And that’s how I found myself sitting in this talking to you today. Jason Diamond: Wow. So there’s a lot to unpack there. Thank you for sharing. And you shared it with a degree of vulnerability that I personally, I have a two-year-old and a three-week-old as of this recording. So it resonates with me. I think it resonates with a lot of advisors, people in our, and honestly, probably most industries, the constant pull in multiple different directions. And I love what you called it, seeking the intangible. And it sounds like you didn’t go in with any preconceived notion about… Many of our guests, by the way, that is the case. They walk in saying, “I knew since I was two years old I wanted to be in wealth management. I wanted to help be a steward of client…” And I love that your circuitous route took you a different direction. I want to talk more about the firm, and we’ll dive in on some of these elements of your background also. But before we do, you mentioned a little bit of, at a high level, what RFG is. Give me a little more context, types of advisors you serve, types of clients you serve. And if you don’t mind, provide some stats around size as well. Shannon Spotswood: Absolutely. So we are on a mission to help independent advisors build their business without compromise by driving organic growth to create enterprise value. And I share that because in our mission statement is the passion that links us all together, which is helping independent advisors build what they want to envision for their clients, what they believe is the best representation of their vision and their values. So we are a platform, a full turnkey platform for independent advisors. We talk about our services as a flywheel. There’s a very intentional interdependency from technology to marketing to compliance to talent to investment management to coaching, operations, transition services, and capital solutions. All of it is knit together very thoughtfully in order to be able to deliver to the advisors on our promise to help them operationalize and professionalize their business, to serve their clients and to generate that organic growth, which is what translates into enterprise value. What is so cool about the RFG advisor community, and I think is really the thread that binds between our teams and our advisors team is this servant heart growth mindset that you find it in every nook and cranny of RFG and certainly within all of our advisor partners. So the advisor profile for us, we do tend to skew a little bit younger. Average age is 45 years old. Organic growth across all of our advisors is north of 10%. So we’re very focused and leaned in on growth. We do have advisors that are lifestyle. We talk about them as lifestyle scaling and enterprise, and they run all along that growth at growth spectrum, depending on what do they want to build in their lives, what is going to help them really realize their dreams? And we’ll talk about this a little bit and just the growth of the firm and what we’ve been building, but we are at $9 billion. So it’s been a big run in 2026, as I say, 10 years of pre-game warmup to be able to really talk about that level of growth. So just knocking on the door of $10 billion and truly, Jason, I can tell you, I feel like we’re just getting started. I feel like we are just at the beginning of the J-curve as advisors are really realizing that their most valuable asset is their time and the amount of enterprise value that they can create being independent. There’s a lot of different flavors of that. We’ve got some incredibly well-capitalized and very strong competitors, but the collective awareness around this bull market for advice that we’re sitting at the very beginning of is shining such a bright light on what does it mean to be independent? What does it mean to be really supported by a partner who’s all in to help them win? And that’s where we find ourselves. And by design, that’s where we find ourselves. Jason Diamond: Yeah, and it’s an exciting time. I completely agree. The space, the vertical you’re in, probably as much or more than any other pocket of the industry. You took the words out of my mouth, the J-curve. I completely agree with the story you’re telling. There’s one component of your background that I do want to ask about, which is many RIAs, platforms, and the like, the leadership team is intentionally ex-advisors in their own right. So I’m curious, do you think of it as a benefit or maybe to what degree is it not a benefit that you have never been an advisor and served clients? I do love the idea that you’re a business builder and you’re helping advisors to build a business. That’s not lost on me, but I’m curious specifically about never having been an advisor. Shannon Spotswood: I think it is so critical that we were advisor-founded. What we like to say is we’re advisor-founded and professionally-led. Bobby founded the firm in 2003. We partnered in 2015. Our third partner, Rick Wedell, who’s our chief investment officer, managing partner, joined in 2016. So the three of us really co-founded the version of RFG that is- Jason Diamond: The right version. Shannon Spotswood: … expressed in the market today. But you’re a hundred percent right to double click on this. And I think it is such an important area for reflection for advisors in terms of where are their greatest skills? Where does their passion lie? And what are they interested in building? That very first day that I met Bobby, his telling of the story is he looked at my resume the morning that we were meant to meet, and he is like, “Well, why would I hire her? She could do my job.” And he often talked about that where you get to this point as an advisor where the business is scaling and growing. And we certainly are seeing this in a lot of the larger teams that we’re talking to and the relationships that we’re beginning to build within the pipeline of these advisors who were attracted to the industry because they wanted to serve clients and find themselves as accidental CEOs, COOs, their chief cook and bottle washer to advisor to all of these C-suite titles. And it’s not amplifying their natural skillset and it’s not aligned with what is actually their passion for the business. So I give a tremendous amount of credit to Bobby for recognizing more than 10 years ago really what it would take and how he could align team around him and build partnerships around him to be able to maximize the impact that we can have for advisors. So that north star of keeping advisors front and center is truly our, it is woven into our DNA and it is our north star. So we are a client experience company by design. We talk about it all the time, whether it’s how we’re building our team, how we’re thinking about investing in technology, how we’re soliciting feedback for advisors. I always say one of our greatest strengths as an organization is we’re active listeners and then we actually execute on it. Our best ideas come from our advisors, but you’ve got to have that posture as a firm that everything you do is orienting around how do we help advisors operationalize, professionalize, drive organic growth, and create enterprise value? And you can’t do it sometimes. You’re either all in, chips all in, only winning when your advisors win, and only having that lens of will this benefit the advisor and their team or not. It’s not something that you can just dip your toe in and out of. And I think RFG, having that foundation from which to always build is absolutely critical. Jason Diamond: Can I try and paraphrase or synthesize, and you tell me if I get this right? The pitch is something to the effect of, “We are really good at what we do. Let us take all the BS off of your plate so that you can go out and be an advisor. Service your client and prospect.” Do you find that story is resonating more over time? I mean, you’ve been with the firm now long enough to see this kind of cycle of movement towards independence. How has that story evolved over time? Do you find it easier to tell? Shannon Spotswood: Oh my gosh, without question. And I would even put a shorter term window on it. I would say in the last 12 to 15 months- Jason Diamond: Oh wow. Shannon Spotswood: … there has been a collective awakening by advisors, and I think there’s a lot of contributing factors to that. One is obviously as we are all aware, the majority of the industry is now private equity backed. There has been a real focus on the aggregator model, transitioning advisors into a W-2 model. And as that has played out and that financial engineering has translated into some incredible valuations and returns, there has also been simultaneously advisors picking their head up and like, wait a minute, I wanted to get independent so I could serve my clients in a way that I felt best represented my vision and my values. And I’m finding myself increasingly in a captive environment. All the while the technology is getting better, the valuations are getting larger, the ability to control both your branding and what that means for your family legacy is increasing. So over the course of the last 15 to 18 months, that story has just, while it’s been there for a long time, the independent movement was obviously sparked more than, gosh, now 16, 20 years ago in earnest. Now it’s just the passion and the knowledge that advisors are showing up to conversations in recognizing I want more. I want to spend my time where I want to spend it. I want to serve more families. I want to be well-positioned for generational wealth transition. I want to own the enterprise value. I want to build my team and I want the best tech. And that to me is exactly why we’re at the beginning of this J-curve. Jason Diamond: Yeah, I think you nailed it. And I agree with you that this notion of independence is not a destination in and of… It’s too broad of a term I think to use. And there are plenty of advisors who either started at one version of independence and need something different now, or to your point, thought they were going independent only to realize perhaps there’s elements of the business that aren’t as independent as they realized. And that’s where I think a firm like RFG to me, it’s not an accident that your firm fills this niche. This was advisor demand driven. Advisors said explicitly and implicitly, “We want to be independent. We want to own our equity. We want to have control over the things we like, but we want a support partner that helps us with all the back office, the middle office, investment management, the flywheel,” as you call it. Shannon Spotswood: That’s right. Jason Diamond: One other element of your journey to this point that I want to ask about, the succession journey or the journey to CEO, and I’m only asking because it’s somewhat recent, I think it was 2024, so we’re about two years in CEO. For the eight years prior to that, you were president. Shannon Spotswood: Yes. Jason Diamond: And this dynamic is near and dear for a lot of advisors. This idea you’re the heir apparent, but the date hasn’t happened until it happened. Was that a smooth transition date or did you find yourself, and I hope you can be honest about it, and if not, I understand, but I think this is something that a lot of advisors in their own businesses struggle with. So as somebody who’s gone through a major succession journey in the last two years, I’m curious what your thoughts are. Shannon Spotswood: The timing coincided with us bringing on a growth capital partner. So we closed on that partnership with Long Ridge in the fall of 2023, and we really set our sights on how do we bring this capital into the business and invest in our team, invest in our technology, invest in this desire to help independent advisors build their business. And Long Ridge really shares that long-term strategic belief that independence and the corporate RIA model is the ultimate winning model. So we have a lot of room to run there. So entering into that growth partnership with Long Ridge really provided a natural opportunity for that succession conversation to take place and to be able to take the company to the next leg. So we’ve tripled the size of the company over the course of the last two and a half years. Jason Diamond: Good for you. Shannon Spotswood: And as I said, I feel like we’re just getting started. I always joke we’ve had the longest pre-game warmup in history. In a lot of ways that’s by design. For me, the way that I can sleep at night is knowing that we are waking up as a team in this unified front to walk the walk for our advisors. It is incredibly important to us to honor the promise that we’ve made, whether it’s on tech or talent or transition services or marketing growth. So being able to lean in and deliver that, it takes a long time to build that institutional know-how and to be uncompromising in consistently making hard decisions, whether it’s around talent or the investments that you’re making or how you’re running and growing and building the firm. And so Bobby reached and Long Ridge and all of us reached this point where it was just a very natural way. And I think it was such a gift that I had such a long warmup, if you will, in the bullpen, running the day-to-day of the business as president, being so close to sweating the details of how we built the foundation, how we run the firm. And then obviously Ed Swenson joined us as president in last fall in October of 2025, having joined our board when we partnered with Long Ridge. So he joined our board in September of ’23, and he and I set up a call every other week. So we just became this incredibly trusted confidant of mine as we made a lot of strategic investments and key strategic decisions in that first 15 to 18 months of our partnership with Long Ridge. So to be able to build and attract the caliber of talent that we have to RFG, I mean, I’m totally biased and talking my own book, but I think we have the best leadership team. Doug Nelson joined us from Long Ridge as our CFO in November of last year, just bringing that rigor, particularly around capital strategies into our C-suite. So it was the right time to make that transition. And what I would say for founder advisor-led firms, it’s all about what are your growth ambitions? It’s what are your growth ambitions? Without question, when I joined and Bobby and Rick and I set upon this journey to tear the entire company down and build this robust tech stack and be at the forefront as an innovator in that space, that was experience that I had from my 20 years in San Francisco. And Rick had this incredible institutional pedigree having spent 12 years at Bain Capital plus two years at Stanford Business School, complimenting this authenticity that Bobby brought as an advisor, bringing that together. So recognizing as a founder advisor, if you have growth ambitions to 10X your business, it’s going to require that you bring high caliber talent to the table and allow for that room both from an equity participation perspective, but also just from what does the business need as it continues to scale up? Jason Diamond: That’s exactly right. And part of this gets back to private equity sometimes gets a bad rep in our space, but the reality is capital from private equity enables a lot of what you’re talking about. And I give you a lot of credit. I mean, you make the half joke about the longest pregame warmup ever, but I think of it as you learned on your own dime and you built all the kinks and ironed out all the kinks prior to having this critical mass of advisors on your platform. And we’ve seen certainly plenty of firms go that route too. So I give you credit for that. I think because we’re on the topic, let’s talk about it, private equity. Positive experience, negative experience, neutral, neither good nor bad. Just give me your… I don’t want to make the episode about the perils- Shannon Spotswood: Right. Jason Diamond: … and benefits of private equity capital, but just curious what your experience has been. Shannon Spotswood: I think this is one of those life lessons. Choose your partners wisely and great things can happen, whether it’s in your marriage or your friendships- Jason Diamond: Spouse. Yep. Shannon Spotswood: … or your business partners. And Long Ridge found us very serendipitously. I mean, we were probably two years from even contemplating bringing in a growth capital partner. They were introduced to us by a former board member and they were in our offices in January of 2023. And the most important things for us were twofold. Number one, they shared our vision and belief that the corporate RIA independent is the winning model for the industry and for advisors and clients. And number two, who they are as people is very much who we are as people. They’re builders. Jason Diamond: Culturally. Shannon Spotswood: They have this servant heart growth mindset that they share with us. So I feel incredibly blessed to say they’re amazing partners. And what’s interesting, and I’ll share this very openly, they’re the majority owners of RFG. We were very early in that time of bringing them on. They have always honored the promise that they made to us, which is we run the business. They are a strategic partner. They’re a great thought partner. They are the capital provider, but there has been multiple examples where we have made business decisions where there’s been some heat in the kitchen, in the boardroom, and we’ve felt very strongly about it. So I just couldn’t say enough great things about them. And one thing that I will just share, and I say this because they’ve shared this with me, I have had this incredible personal journey of growth bringing such a deep bench in Long Ridge into the firm. And that has been certainly challenging at times. Do hard things, get comfortable being uncomfortable. It’s the ultimate definition. But I really think that is something that never gets talked about is what it means in upskilling the caliber of your talent, yourself, how you have to grow and evolve as an individual has been really, I won’t say it’s been easy, but I look back on what I’ve learned over these two years and just feel prepared as a leadership team, how we operate as a team, what is expected of us to be able to deliver and execute for our advisors in this next leg of growth. Jason Diamond: I think your marriage analogy is the perfect one, and I’m going to use it. And honestly, in a lot of ways. First of all, marriage is hard, good or bad. It’s hard. Second of all, it’s the ultimate… The institution of marriage is not good or bad. Private equity capital is not good or bad, but your answer is the right one. Pick your partner very wisely. My favorite part of your answer, because it’s the most original, was around a good capital backer, a good partner, whatever you want to call it, pushes you to be better. And I think that you’re surrounding yourself with, by definition, some of the smartest people in the industry, and that can’t be a bad thing. And the proof is in the pudding. The growth trajectory you’ve seen, it’s certainly no accident. I think part of it is tied to your incredible stewardship. You don’t have to answer that. You don’t have to be humble, but I’ll attribute it to you. That brings me to my next question. Shannon Spotswood: I do have to say really quickly. Jason Diamond: Please do. Shannon Spotswood: I will be celebrating my 27th wedding anniversary in October. So yeah, pick your partners. Jason Diamond: Congrats. And I feel equally blessed, I assume as you do. I have a great partner, I’ll say. I don’t know if she’s listening right now, but she’s a great spouse. What I was going to say though, good segue, I think there’s been more in recent years, but not a ton certainly of female C-suite wealth management executives. How do you feel about your role? Do you feel an increased burden? Is it an honor to you? Is it something that you don’t think much about at all? I’m curious what your thoughts are. Shannon Spotswood: I feel immense gratitude. I mean, just in general, leading RFG and locking arms with our team and our advisors is, I mean, a gift of a lifetime. I was incredibly fortunate to not just have mentors during my 20 years in San Francisco, but to have true sponsors. Whether it was the first hedge fund I worked at, I took that job because it was a female portfolio manager and at the time one of the only in the country. And she really opened up her heart to me and poured into me. And then 10 years at Symphony, the founding partners of Symphony, they dropped me into the deep end of the pool and gave me a lot of rope to make a lot of mistakes and continued to invest. So I have this foundation from which to build and to lead and to be ready for this role. I couldn’t do any of this without my partners. Rick and I have been partners for more than 10 years. It really does take a village in the same way that it takes a village to raise your family. It takes a village to find the courage and the strength to lead in a way that really honors the gravity of the mission. But I’ll tell you this. One, I knew I wanted to work on Wall Street from a very young age, so I chose this. I knew what I was getting into, that it was a male-dominated industry. I have made particularly, this is one of the unique facets of the wealth management business, we have phenomenal both male and female talent, and I have made the strongest female relationships on this side of the business as compared to the institutional side of the business. So I think there is a richness to our side of the industry that doesn’t get enough air cover. There are just phenomenal leaders, and I think increasingly so, we’re seeing more women stay in the game and raise into positions within the C-suite and leading these firms. I will tell you one thing in 2019, and I really give a lot of credit to Bobby for this in coaching me, is I was raised by wolves on Wall Street without question. I sat on a trade desk, I was completely comfortable with compartmentalizing emotion, and I made it a mission to develop intentionally my emotional intelligence. And that truly unlocked everything for me, and I think plays such a huge part of who I want to be and who I challenge myself to be as a leader. And so it’s funny when I get the question asked of me about being a female CEO, because I think that’s what people feel must be like came very intuitively to me, but I had to learn it. I had 20 plus years of being able to run with boys and I needed to develop that skill. And it is a skill that I challenge myself on a daily to continue to lean into. And I think it is increasingly important both for men and women who aspire to leadership to hone the strategic and execution alongside that emotional intelligence. Jason Diamond: Great answer. And I think you know I admire a lot about you, but it’s certainly one of the things I admire most about you is over the last couple years in particular you’ve been a real beacon of positivity, of empowerment in that regard. You’re active on socials, you’re active at industry events, you’re always willing to talk to people. And honestly, that to me is the answer. A lot of people complain about this as a problem, and I want to just take a second to applaud you because I think you and your firm actually do something to at least try and actively solve some of this. And also you mentioned it earlier, but same thing with some of the next gen dynamics. You skew much younger than the average firm on the industry. And I think that too is to your credit around, okay, we’ve identified that we have a major succession problem in our industry. What are we doing to solve that? Shannon Spotswood: Absolutely. Jason Diamond: Let’s talk about growth a little bit. I agree with your thesis. This space you occupy, no better time to be in it. We’re at the perfect spot on the J-curve. Unfortunately, we are not the only two people to think that. There are also, I think, some other firms. This space has become crowded. What do you think about that? Just the fact that there’s more competition than ever. I mean, my view of it is there are enough quality advisors to go around, but curious what you think. Shannon Spotswood: Anytime I find myself wading into the waters of fear and scarcity around this topic, I’m reminded that 67% of the assets still remain within the wirehouse and IBD space. We got lots of room to run. I believe in a mindset of abundance. The data will tell us that the demand for advice is increasing by 30% over the next decade while the number of advisors is decreasing by 1%. So we’ve got, find me another industry where you see a graph that looks like that. On top of that, next gen, which I think this is so fascinating, next gen actually wants more advice when compared to the baby boomers. So baby boomers created our industry, and here we are sitting on $87 trillion worth of generational wealth that’s going to begin to transition. That doesn’t even include all of the wealth that will be monetized through real estate and family-owned businesses. It is a tsunami. And what is, I think, really interesting is that next gen recognizes the value of their time. I’m sure if I had a conversation, Jason, with you and my husband about how intentional you want to be in terms of showing up for your children and the equal nature of parenting, that alone is changing the way the next gen thinks about both their professions as well as their family life, which means you by default have to hire professionals to do the things that you don’t want to spend the time doing. Jason Diamond: Really good point. Shannon Spotswood: So we have this incredible convergence that’s happening right now, and it’s coming at a time that technology is finally going to allow us to serve more families more intentionally along that wealth spectrum. So it is like, bring it on. There is more than enough to go around. We are in an era of abundance. And what I worry the most about, and this, it’s like climb up on the soapbox and let’s roll, about independence because I see and have so many conversations with advisors where they have been willing to accept such a compromised service experience that they would never allow to be delivered to their clients. So advisors are delivering this 24-hour concierge, high-touch, deeply thoughtful experience, estate planning, tax planning, financial planning, multi-generational conversations. They’re in it. They’re in the trench. And then they turn around and their service partner is so subpar. They’re compromising their growth. They’re burying them in compliance and ops and clicks and swivel chair and tech that doesn’t work. So we’re at the very beginning of this bull run for advice. And I think advisors who recognize, I want to serve more families, I want more control over my time, I want to be able to build enterprise value on my personal balance sheet, have room to do it. So I welcome the competition. I think the best way to talk about it is iron sharpens iron. I learn so much from our peers and like, ah, they did this or they did that. How do we think more disruptively, more innovatively? How do we do it differently? So I think there’s a lot of room for all of us. You’re going to be busy, my friend. You’re already sitting there advising the lion’s share of the big deals, and I think you guys are just getting started as well. Jason Diamond: Yeah, it certainly feels like a bull market for advice and also I think a bull market for some of the… You allude to an interesting paradox, which is some of the biggest and most sophisticated advisors in the industry have really high-touch impressive service models, but they don’t seem to demand the same in return. I have some thoughts as to why. I think one could just be Kool-Aid drinking, like you don’t know any better and you’ve been there for so long. There’s just so much friction associated with moving a business and fear associated that it’s unless things get really dire or unless I find something that’s better enough or meaningfully better enough, I can gut it out. But the third one that comes to mind is these firms we’re talking about have unequivocally, they do a lot of good, a lot of bad, but unequivocally one of the things they do really well is brand. Shannon Spotswood: Yeah. Jason Diamond: How do you reconcile that question with a firm that obviously doesn’t have a brand that the average American consumer would know? Shannon Spotswood: We take a posture on this that is rooted in an Accenture study that was conducted several years ago, but I think still remains so true today, is that advisors think that the value proposition that their clients are looking for, either it’s that big monobrand that’s advertising at the Super Bowl or the alpha they’re ever able to generate or the portfolio investments. But the clients tell us that what they’re looking for in an advisor is, do you get me? Do you share my values? And do I want to spend time with you outside the office? And that is basically distilled down the way we talk about it is people connect with people. So now more than ever, particularly if you take a big step back and you think about the influencer economy and how brands, big brands, Nike or big consumer brands have really leaned into niche branding. How do I get my brand into the hands of someone who’s very passionate about it? So advisors who develop their own brand, who have a presence on social, who have a presence in AEO and SEO, who are leaning in and expressing not only their client experience, but their vision and their values through their brand, I actually think as this generational wealth unfolds, that authenticity carries so much more weight than is my name on a football stadium. So it is those three factors. It’s just I’m comfortable. I don’t want ripple. It is friction and fear for sure. And then it’s like that branding is up for grabs because we certainly see one of the most fun parts of advisors joining RFG, this is a big part of what we do is helping them design and develop or reimagine their brand name, their logo, all the rest of it. Once that creative energy is unlocked and you get to tell your story, your my why, that connective tissue is so powerful with the clients and with the growth that comes from that because I mean, I truly believe people connect with people. They’re looking for that. And I think more so now than ever with AI. Jason Diamond: You just took the words out of my mouth. Do you think AI perpetuates that? Shannon Spotswood: I think people are craving that. And this is why advisors who are powered by AI without question are going to win. Advisors are not going to be disrupted by AI unless they haven’t made the move to get themselves in a position to be able to leverage the technology, the brand, the talent, the maximizing of their time. But especially with something as important and as personal as money, as you walk through life, I mean, you are at the very beginning. I’m sending, I’ll have all three kids in college. But as you make these critical decisions in your life, whether it’s getting married or starting a business or changing jobs or buying your first house, buying your vacation house, all of these things, you can go right or you can go wrong. And having a trusted partner who really understands you, I actually think that we’re going to see the fees paid for advisors increasing as there is a greater premium placed on, I want deeply personal relationships that are tailor-made for me. Jason Diamond: But I assume the flip side of that is you have to do more. You as a firm and you as an advisor have to do more, and you can’t just raise fees with the same service model. So I think what is the corollary of that? What are some of the ancillary growth areas that you do beyond the financial planning and asset management that says, “We’re worth that money you’re going to pay us”? Shannon Spotswood: It is, and I love the work that wealth.com is doing here. I mean, the estate planning and tax planning, making that more accessible along that continuum of wealth spectrum, the blurring of the lines between ultra high net worth and high net worth, and then mass affluent is so exciting. Better, more robust planning is good for our industry overall. Obviously there’s a huge amount of demand on the tax side of things, particularly the 1040. It’s easy to find a CPA to do the cool complex stuff. It’s increasingly more challenging for advisors. That’s an area that I know a lot of firms have leaned into. We’re certainly doing a lot of work. But so much of this, Jason, is showing up at the right time for clients with the resources. It’s a really interesting conversation about, yes, you have to do more for your clients, but you don’t have to do more for all your clients at exactly the same time. Jason Diamond: That’s well said. The flip side of that is as an advisor, because ultimately the advisors are the ones making this decision. There are a lot of firms, and not even just firms that you would be competitors with, because the reality is you and I understand the industry landscape and where various firms fit in. For many advisors, it’s a long list of various firm names that they’ve heard. So what are some things that you think advisors should be asking a firm like you or a business development person at your firm to suss this out? How does an advisor go about understanding if a platform is empty or is really going to be able to deliver in all these areas? Shannon Spotswood: Remember back in the day when the Wall Street Journal used to run have a monkey throw a dart and see if you can beat the pros on stock picking? I love to do that with regards to our advisors. We always tell our prospects, “Throw a dart at any advisor that’s affiliated with RFG and call them. Certainly we can provide a list of advisors who we think you’re going to most align with in terms of what your growth ambitions are or the way you want to run your business or who you are, life stage, all the rest of it.” But I do think that getting that unfiltered experience, the good, the bad, the ugly. We always are like, “Are we perfect? Absolutely not. Do we though immediately want the feedback so that we can iterate to excellence to get better? Absolutely. Get that firsthand testimony.” So that’s number one. Number two is don’t tell me, show me. There are so many, and it always pulls at my heart because as much as I love to win business and transition advisors, and I think that we’re working certainly at RFG on some really interesting technology that is anchored around removing that friction and fear by speeding up the time that you can make that transition in. And the tech is finally there to allow for this. So I think we’re going to be able to take variable number two and at least make that box a little bit smaller. But if I’m sitting as an advisor, I would want to see the evidence. Show me how you’ve solved the problems that advisors have brought to you. How have you refined your tech stack? How have you invested in your team? How have you made the decisions where the ROI can be measurable and tangible? And I think too often I’m surprised that advisors get, it’s almost as if they get overwhelmed by the amount of information that they’re taking in trying to compare all these different firms. If I’m ever asked, I’m like, please work with a third-party recruiter. You need someone not only to act as an interpreter, but you need someone to help really keep your top three priorities at the front of your decision-making matrix, because it really is apples to oranges to orangutans and you get decision fatigue. And then advisors end up making this decision that is anchored in like, well, this is the highest payout, and I’m willing to take all of these sacrifices and paper cuts for this highest payout. And that is just such a travesty. So it’s like, know what you want. What are your top three problems that you’re trying to solve? Talk to advisors that you get to pick just so you can do some secret shopping, and then demand evidence of how the firm, the platform has responded to feedback and gotten better as a result because that will tell you, are they really going to walk the walk or are they just going to talk the talk? Jason Diamond: I’m super grateful that you gave specifics there because it’s an easy question to dodge and talk around. So I completely agree. Your first answer, actually all three of those points you just made, but certainly doing name-blind calls, and I say name-blind because advisors worry about confidentiality. I think that’s one of the best and most underrated tools to learn about a firm is advisors now have so many colleagues. There’s been this diaspora of advisors where advisors know advisors everywhere. And that’s a benefit if you wanted to go and just network and have conversations with other advisors on your own. But if you’re worried about confidentiality, there’s certainly the mechanisms, and we do this all the time for advisors to set up name-blind calls. You dial into a conference line, it’s John Smith, and you pick an advisor’s brain and say, “Hey, you moved your book from LPL to RFG, and tell me what that experience was like and what were the positives? Give me all the negatives.” To your point, you want advisors to ask those questions in advance. It’s better to ask those questions than to end up in the wrong marriage with the advisor. Shannon Spotswood: Absolutely. And the other thing is what an easy answer to BS around is tell me who’s a good fit for your firm. And it’s like, “Everyone’s welcome here.” Jason Diamond: Everybody. Yeah. Shannon Spotswood: It’s just not true. RFG is not a good fit for an advisor who is not open to using technology, who is not interested in outsourcing investment management, who doesn’t want to have a conversation about how are you spending your time and do you want to create enterprise value? Do you want to grow? So it really is important to have that vulnerability and that honesty and the answer to that question. Jason Diamond: I love it. We have time for one more. I can’t believe it’s been almost an hour. Shannon Spotswood: I know, it flies by. Jason Diamond: We speak with plenty of advisors who aren’t considering a move, but I’m interested. I think you have a really nice lens into the industry. What is one thing you wish advisors knew? You have a megaphone to just talk to advisors who maybe are considering change, but maybe aren’t. What’s the questions they should be thinking about? What keeps you up at night? Just what would be your public service announcement? Shannon Spotswood: I’m going to focus on the friction and fear because that’s the number one barrier to making a move is PTSD, either first person PTSD or the collective negative experience that the industry has had. It took me 90 days to transition. I got sued by my former firm. I lost all these clients. I didn’t have income. The wise tales of fear are very widely trafficked and widespread. And what I would say to an advisor is everything you want is on the other side of fear. And I look at all of this data that suggests exactly the opposite, which is you have the relationship with the client. You have the trust with the client. You are the one who they call on Sunday night when they need a shoulder to cry on or sage advice for making a decision. Just believe it with the core of your being because what we see is 99% of assets transition, whether it’s a restrictive transition or you’re taking full data, that the majority of assets are transitioning within 30 days, that this is still a free country, and you can make a move while honoring your contract around non-solicitation, non-competes, and non-associations. So it is like this fear of holding advisors back is preventing them from realizing and monetizing this enterprise value, but equally as importantly, loving their business. Have fun. This should be fun. We spend the majority of our life at work. And so being able to surround yourself with people who win when you win, with a team who’s aligned and isn’t just drudgery with all their operations compliance headaches that they’re dealing with. Your team deserves to be happy. You deserve to be happy. And that fear factor is holding so many advisors back. So that’s my advice is that it just doesn’t have to play out that way. And I think not just at RFG, collectively where we are as an independent industry with technology, with the way that AI is changing and our ability to harness data and business intelligence, getting to that point of next best action, how am I spending my time, how am I realizing, what is the blueprint for realizing my growth goals is more tangible now than ever. That’s immediately where I go. Jason Diamond: I’ve never been an advisor. I’ve never had a book of business, so I don’t want to minimize the fear, but I will say this. If we speak to advisors, let’s say a year post-transition, by far the number one thing we hear from them is, “I wish I did this sooner.” Shannon Spotswood: Wish I did it sooner. Jason Diamond: And that to me is the most telling data point there is to your point about fear and getting over it. Shannon Spotswood: So I do this exercise all the time with our team as we’re onboarding advisors is I want you to go home and look at your spouse and tell them, “I’m going to leave my job. I have no certainty that everything is going to work out. We might not receive any kind of compensation. Are you cool with that?” Walk that emotional journey. And while there’s plenty obviously that we can do with Capital Solutions to ease the financial fear associated with it, I still think at the baseline, it’s a great exercise to keep everyone very humble. You are asking an advisor to take their life’s work. And someone was sharing this analogy with me the other day and I was like, “Oh my gosh, that’s so good,” which is imagine moving houses. It’s such a hassle packing up moving one house. Now imagine moving 400 households or 1,200 households. It’s a lot, but I always hear the same thing, “I wish I’d done it sooner.” Jason Diamond: Thank you for sharing. You had some really sage wisdom that you shared with our audience. I can’t wait to see the next chapter, the continuation of the J-curve. This has been a fantastic episode, Shannon. Thank you. Shannon Spotswood: I love being with you, Jason. Thank you so much. We appreciate it. Mindy Diamond: As a financial advisor, you hold yourself to the highest standards of integrity, honesty, and credibility. You are successful because you take your professional responsibilities seriously and are dedicated to your clients. But are you living your best business life? Are your goals aligned with your firms or could a better option exist? Should I Stay or Should I Go? is a book written with you in mind. It’s a self-guided journey that walks you through the key steps that we take with our advisor clients. This strategic thought process and roadmap to professional self-discovery is designed to help you ask the right questions and think critically and objectively, whether you’re considering change or not. Learn how to get your copy at diamond-consultants.com/thebook. Growth Without Compromise: Building Around the Advisor Experience A conversation with Jason Diamond and Shannon Spotswood, CEO of RFG Advisory. Jason Diamond: Welcome to the latest episode of our podcast series for Financial Advisors. Today’s episode is Growth Without Compromise: Building Around the Advisor Experience. It’s a conversation with Shannon Spotswood, the CEO of RFG Advisory. I’m Jason Diamond, and this is the Diamond Podcast for Financial Advisors. Mindy Diamond: At Diamond Consultants, we help elite advisors identify the right environment for their businesses to thrive, whether that’s at a wirehouse, boutique, or independent firm. With nearly three decades of experience, we’ve guided thousands of advisors and represented more than a quarter of a trillion dollars in assets transitioned. And each year, one in four advisors managing a billion dollars or more who change firms are our clients. Our process is education-driven and based on building relationships, starting as your strategic partner well before you’re even thinking of a move. To schedule a confidential conversation, call us at 908-879-1002. Wondering why advisors change firms and where they’re headed? Are transition deals going up or down? Those very questions and more inspired us to create our annual advisor transition report. It’s the award-winning data-driven resource designed for advisors that connects the dots between the motivations around movement and the firm’s appetite for top talent. Arm yourself with the knowledge you need to make smart decisions. Download your copy at diamond-consultants.com/transitionreport. Jason Diamond: The right partners make you better. The wrong ones can quietly hold you back. Most conversations about independence focus on platforms as providers of technology, service, or infrastructure. Shannon Spotswood sees them differently. She believes advisors should evaluate a platform the same way they’d evaluate any long-term business partner, by asking whether it will help them build the kind of firm they ultimately want to own. That’s exactly what we explore in this episode. Shannon is the CEO of RFG Advisory, a firm that has grown from a startup into one of the industry’s leading supportive independence platforms. Along the way, she’s developed a unique perspective on what advisors should be looking for beyond economics and technology, and why the right partner can accelerate growth, strengthen culture, and help create a business that’s built to last. It’s a conversation that goes well beyond advisor platforms. We explore why Shannon believes so strongly in growth without compromise, what private equity can look like when the partnership is aligned, why firms shouldn’t try to be everything to everyone, and how advisors can separate marketing promises from meaningful support. We also spend time on a topic that comes up in nearly every transition conversation my team has with advisors, fear. Shannon shares her perspective on why outdated assumptions about making a move continue to hold advisors back and why asking better questions and demanding evidence instead of promises can fundamentally change the way advisors evaluate every opportunity in front of them. Whether you’re considering independence, evaluating your current platform, or simply thinking about what comes next for your business, I think you’ll find Shannon’s perspective both practical and though-provoking, especially the sage advice in her words, “Don’t tell me, show me.” There’s a lot to take away from this conversation, so let’s get to it. Shannon, thanks so much for joining me. Thrilled to have you here. Shannon Spotswood: It’s excellent to be here. I’m really looking forward to it. Jason Diamond: Me too. Let’s dive right in. I want to start with your background. You spent 20 years in San Fran as an investment banker, then as a portfolio manager at Symphony Asset Management before even touching the world of wealth management. So what made you walk away from, we’ll call it the institutional world and enter the world of wealth management? Shannon Spotswood: It’s a little bit of a circuitous story, but I’m going to take us on the short route. I fell in love with Wall Street as a teenager, so I knew I wanted to work on Wall Street. My dream job was actually the time that I spent at Symphony Asset Management. I was a hedge fund manager for them for six years running a long/short equity fund. I then had three children in three and a half years. The firm was acquired by Nuveen Investments, and we grew very large, and I was on this really interesting trajectory within the institutional investment management world. And somewhat of the unexpected happened to me in 2010, we’d come through the financial crisis. I looked around the room, I had these three young children, and having loved finance since a very early age, I couldn’t crawl on an airplane anymore. I fell out of love with what was honestly my first love. And I made a pretty radical pivot. I left Symphony, the tallest building at the time in San Francisco, and I partnered with a woman, and we built a luxury children’s clothing company for the next three years. So about as radical of a move as you can make, a $30 billion firm, big team, a tremendous growth ahead of us to upside down boxes of infant cashmere in a garage that flooded when it rained. So I had my startup in a garage moment. And while I was running the children’s clothing company, my husband and I took a big leap of faith and decided to move from San Francisco to Birmingham, Alabama to get closer to family, to raise our kids in the South, and just manifest the life that we wanted. In the third year of running the kids’ clothing business, we checked every box of our initial business plan, and I turned to my business partner and I was like, “Now what? Should we raise capital? Should we open stores? Should we diversify manufacturing?” And we realized this beautiful little luxury brand that we had created was exactly what it needed to be. And so we restructured the company and I punched out of that. And I spent, really for the first time in my life, about five months in deep contemplation. What was the first hedge fund that I was a part of in San Francisco, my tour of duty through investment banking as an analyst associate and helping them start an M&A group. This incredible decade that I’d spent at Symphony, and then this wild out of left field moment of building a luxury children’s clothing brand. And it had such an epiphany, Jason. And it was this, that I was on the ground floor of all of those businesses. And my aha moment was, oh my gosh, I’m a builder. What I love more than anything is sitting at the intersection of talent and opportunity and what I think is truly one of life’s greatest gifts, and certainly I think the most fun way to live your professional life, which is building something. So I put my resume together and I titled… It wasn’t even really a job search. It was more, I was new to Birmingham. I wondered if there was anything I could be of service in being a part of building something. So I put that resume together and I titled it Seeking the Intangible. And I was looking for that opportunity of talent and building something bigger than myself. And it was through some networking with my across the street neighbor who went on to become a board member of RFG who thought all I did was sell his wife incredibly expensive clothing who networked me to Bobby White, who’s the founder of RFG. And in the first 10 minutes of my conversation with Bobby, and I’ll tell you, both of us went into that meeting thinking it was going to be a filler meeting. He was doing a favor for a friend, and I had seen a little bit of the wealth management industry after Nuveen had acquired Symphony and was like, “That’s not really my bag. My jam is more on the institutional side of things.” And 10 minutes into our very first meeting, we both canceled the rest of our day, and we spent the next two and a half hours in his office having a conversation that really started with what if. What if we took RFG, which had been founded in 2003, and at the time was an OSJ with LPL, what if we took that business and we tore it all the way down to the ground? And we rebuilt it from the ground floor up to be a platform that is designed, that is intentionally engineered, to serve independent advisors? What would it look like to be a client experience company first, a technology company second, and a corporate RIA third? And I’ll tell you, walking out of that meeting, I was like, “This is it. This is it. This is the intangible. This is an opportunity to really build something very special.” And that’s how I found myself sitting in this talking to you today. Jason Diamond: Wow. So there’s a lot to unpack there. Thank you for sharing. And you shared it with a degree of vulnerability that I personally, I have a two-year-old and a three-week-old as of this recording. So it resonates with me. I think it resonates with a lot of advisors, people in our, and honestly, probably most industries, the constant pull in multiple different directions. And I love what you called it, seeking the intangible. And it sounds like you didn’t go in with any preconceived notion about… Many of our guests, by the way, that is the case. They walk in saying, “I knew since I was two years old I wanted to be in wealth management. I wanted to help be a steward of client…” And I love that your circuitous route took you a different direction. I want to talk more about the firm, and we’ll dive in on some of these elements of your background also. But before we do, you mentioned a little bit of, at a high level, what RFG is. Give me a little more context, types of advisors you serve, types of clients you serve. And if you don’t mind, provide some stats around size as well. Shannon Spotswood: Absolutely. So we are on a mission to help independent advisors build their business without compromise by driving organic growth to create enterprise value. And I share that because in our mission statement is the passion that links us all together, which is helping independent advisors build what they want to envision for their clients, what they believe is the best representation of their vision and their values. So we are a platform, a full turnkey platform for independent advisors. We talk about our services as a flywheel. There’s a very intentional interdependency from technology to marketing to compliance to talent to investment management to coaching, operations, transition services, and capital solutions. All of it is knit together very thoughtfully in order to be able to deliver to the advisors on our promise to help them operationalize and professionalize their business, to serve their clients and to generate that organic growth, which is what translates into enterprise value. What is so cool about the RFG advisor community, and I think is really the thread that binds between our teams and our advisors team is this servant heart growth mindset that you find it in every nook and cranny of RFG and certainly within all of our advisor partners. So the advisor profile for us, we do tend to skew a little bit younger. Average age is 45 years old. Organic growth across all of our advisors is north of 10%. So we’re very focused and leaned in on growth. We do have advisors that are lifestyle. We talk about them as lifestyle scaling and enterprise, and they run all along that growth at growth spectrum, depending on what do they want to build in their lives, what is going to help them really realize their dreams? And we’ll talk about this a little bit and just the growth of the firm and what we’ve been building, but we are at $9 billion. So it’s been a big run in 2026, as I say, 10 years of pre-game warmup to be able to really talk about that level of growth. So just knocking on the door of $10 billion and truly, Jason, I can tell you, I feel like we’re just getting started. I feel like we are just at the beginning of the J-curve as advisors are really realizing that their most valuable asset is their time and the amount of enterprise value that they can create being independent. There’s a lot of different flavors of that. We’ve got some incredibly well-capitalized and very strong competitors, but the collective awareness around this bull market for advice that we’re sitting at the very beginning of is shining such a bright light on what does it mean to be independent? What does it mean to be really supported by a partner who’s all in to help them win? And that’s where we find ourselves. And by design, that’s where we find ourselves. Jason Diamond: Yeah, and it’s an exciting time. I completely agree. The space, the vertical you’re in, probably as much or more than any other pocket of the industry. You took the words out of my mouth, the J-curve. I completely agree with the story you’re telling. There’s one component of your background that I do want to ask about, which is many RIAs, platforms, and the like, the leadership team is intentionally ex-advisors in their own right. So I’m curious, do you think of it as a benefit or maybe to what degree is it not a benefit that you have never been an advisor and served clients? I do love the idea that you’re a business builder and you’re helping advisors to build a business. That’s not lost on me, but I’m curious specifically about never having been an advisor. Shannon Spotswood: I think it is so critical that we were advisor-founded. What we like to say is we’re advisor-founded and professionally-led. Bobby founded the firm in 2003. We partnered in 2015. Our third partner, Rick Wedell, who’s our chief investment officer, managing partner, joined in 2016. So the three of us really co-founded the version of RFG that is- Jason Diamond: The right version. Shannon Spotswood: … expressed in the market today. But you’re a hundred percent right to double click on this. And I think it is such an important area for reflection for advisors in terms of where are their greatest skills? Where does their passion lie? And what are they interested in building? That very first day that I met Bobby, his telling of the story is he looked at my resume the morning that we were meant to meet, and he is like, “Well, why would I hire her? She could do my job.” And he often talked about that where you get to this point as an advisor where the business is scaling and growing. And we certainly are seeing this in a lot of the larger teams that we’re talking to and the relationships that we’re beginning to build within the pipeline of these advisors who were attracted to the industry because they wanted to serve clients and find themselves as accidental CEOs, COOs, their chief cook and bottle washer to advisor to all of these C-suite titles. And it’s not amplifying their natural skillset and it’s not aligned with what is actually their passion for the business. So I give a tremendous amount of credit to Bobby for recognizing more than 10 years ago really what it would take and how he could align team around him and build partnerships around him to be able to maximize the impact that we can have for advisors. So that north star of keeping advisors front and center is truly our, it is woven into our DNA and it is our north star. So we are a client experience company by design. We talk about it all the time, whether it’s how we’re building our team, how we’re thinking about investing in technology, how we’re soliciting feedback for advisors. I always say one of our greatest strengths as an organization is we’re active listeners and then we actually execute on it. Our best ideas come from our advisors, but you’ve got to have that posture as a firm that everything you do is orienting around how do we help advisors operationalize, professionalize, drive organic growth, and create enterprise value? And you can’t do it sometimes. You’re either all in, chips all in, only winning when your advisors win, and only having that lens of will this benefit the advisor and their team or not. It’s not something that you can just dip your toe in and out of. And I think RFG, having that foundation from which to always build is absolutely critical. Jason Diamond: Can I try and paraphrase or synthesize, and you tell me if I get this right? The pitch is something to the effect of, “We are really good at what we do. Let us take all the BS off of your plate so that you can go out and be an advisor. Service your client and prospect.” Do you find that story is resonating more over time? I mean, you’ve been with the firm now long enough to see this kind of cycle of movement towards independence. How has that story evolved over time? Do you find it easier to tell? Shannon Spotswood: Oh my gosh, without question. And I would even put a shorter term window on it. I would say in the last 12 to 15 months- Jason Diamond: Oh wow. Shannon Spotswood: … there has been a collective awakening by advisors, and I think there’s a lot of contributing factors to that. One is obviously as we are all aware, the majority of the industry is now private equity backed. There has been a real focus on the aggregator model, transitioning advisors into a W-2 model. And as that has played out and that financial engineering has translated into some incredible valuations and returns, there has also been simultaneously advisors picking their head up and like, wait a minute, I wanted to get independent so I could serve my clients in a way that I felt best represented my vision and my values. And I’m finding myself increasingly in a captive environment. All the while the technology is getting better, the valuations are getting larger, the ability to control both your branding and what that means for your family legacy is increasing. So over the course of the last 15 to 18 months, that story has just, while it’s been there for a long time, the independent movement was obviously sparked more than, gosh, now 16, 20 years ago in earnest. Now it’s just the passion and the knowledge that advisors are showing up to conversations in recognizing I want more. I want to spend my time where I want to spend it. I want to serve more families. I want to be well-positioned for generational wealth transition. I want to own the enterprise value. I want to build my team and I want the best tech. And that to me is exactly why we’re at the beginning of this J-curve. Jason Diamond: Yeah, I think you nailed it. And I agree with you that this notion of independence is not a destination in and of… It’s too broad of a term I think to use. And there are plenty of advisors who either started at one version of independence and need something different now, or to your point, thought they were going independent only to realize perhaps there’s elements of the business that aren’t as independent as they realized. And that’s where I think a firm like RFG to me, it’s not an accident that your firm fills this niche. This was advisor demand driven. Advisors said explicitly and implicitly, “We want to be independent. We want to own our equity. We want to have control over the things we like, but we want a support partner that helps us with all the back office, the middle office, investment management, the flywheel,” as you call it. Shannon Spotswood: That’s right. Jason Diamond: One other element of your journey to this point that I want to ask about, the succession journey or the journey to CEO, and I’m only asking because it’s somewhat recent, I think it was 2024, so we’re about two years in CEO. For the eight years prior to that, you were president. Shannon Spotswood: Yes. Jason Diamond: And this dynamic is near and dear for a lot of advisors. This idea you’re the heir apparent, but the date hasn’t happened until it happened. Was that a smooth transition date or did you find yourself, and I hope you can be honest about it, and if not, I understand, but I think this is something that a lot of advisors in their own businesses struggle with. So as somebody who’s gone through a major succession journey in the last two years, I’m curious what your thoughts are. Shannon Spotswood: The timing coincided with us bringing on a growth capital partner. So we closed on that partnership with Long Ridge in the fall of 2023, and we really set our sights on how do we bring this capital into the business and invest in our team, invest in our technology, invest in this desire to help independent advisors build their business. And Long Ridge really shares that long-term strategic belief that independence and the corporate RIA model is the ultimate winning model. So we have a lot of room to run there. So entering into that growth partnership with Long Ridge really provided a natural opportunity for that succession conversation to take place and to be able to take the company to the next leg. So we’ve tripled the size of the company over the course of the last two and a half years. Jason Diamond: Good for you. Shannon Spotswood: And as I said, I feel like we’re just getting started. I always joke we’ve had the longest pre-game warmup in history. In a lot of ways that’s by design. For me, the way that I can sleep at night is knowing that we are waking up as a team in this unified front to walk the walk for our advisors. It is incredibly important to us to honor the promise that we’ve made, whether it’s on tech or talent or transition services or marketing growth. So being able to lean in and deliver that, it takes a long time to build that institutional know-how and to be uncompromising in consistently making hard decisions, whether it’s around talent or the investments that you’re making or how you’re running and growing and building the firm. And so Bobby reached and Long Ridge and all of us reached this point where it was just a very natural way. And I think it was such a gift that I had such a long warmup, if you will, in the bullpen, running the day-to-day of the business as president, being so close to sweating the details of how we built the foundation, how we run the firm. And then obviously Ed Swenson joined us as president in last fall in October of 2025, having joined our board when we partnered with Long Ridge. So he joined our board in September of ’23, and he and I set up a call every other week. So we just became this incredibly trusted confidant of mine as we made a lot of strategic investments and key strategic decisions in that first 15 to 18 months of our partnership with Long Ridge. So to be able to build and attract the caliber of talent that we have to RFG, I mean, I’m totally biased and talking my own book, but I think we have the best leadership team. Doug Nelson joined us from Long Ridge as our CFO in November of last year, just bringing that rigor, particularly around capital strategies into our C-suite. So it was the right time to make that transition. And what I would say for founder advisor-led firms, it’s all about what are your growth ambitions? It’s what are your growth ambitions? Without question, when I joined and Bobby and Rick and I set upon this journey to tear the entire company down and build this robust tech stack and be at the forefront as an innovator in that space, that was experience that I had from my 20 years in San Francisco. And Rick had this incredible institutional pedigree having spent 12 years at Bain Capital plus two years at Stanford Business School, complimenting this authenticity that Bobby brought as an advisor, bringing that together. So recognizing as a founder advisor, if you have growth ambitions to 10X your business, it’s going to require that you bring high caliber talent to the table and allow for that room both from an equity participation perspective, but also just from what does the business need as it continues to scale up? Jason Diamond: That’s exactly right. And part of this gets back to private equity sometimes gets a bad rep in our space, but the reality is capital from private equity enables a lot of what you’re talking about. And I give you a lot of credit. I mean, you make the half joke about the longest pregame warmup ever, but I think of it as you learned on your own dime and you built all the kinks and ironed out all the kinks prior to having this critical mass of advisors on your platform. And we’ve seen certainly plenty of firms go that route too. So I give you credit for that. I think because we’re on the topic, let’s talk about it, private equity. Positive experience, negative experience, neutral, neither good nor bad. Just give me your… I don’t want to make the episode about the perils- Shannon Spotswood: Right. Jason Diamond: … and benefits of private equity capital, but just curious what your experience has been. Shannon Spotswood: I think this is one of those life lessons. Choose your partners wisely and great things can happen, whether it’s in your marriage or your friendships- Jason Diamond: Spouse. Yep. Shannon Spotswood: … or your business partners. And Long Ridge found us very serendipitously. I mean, we were probably two years from even contemplating bringing in a growth capital partner. They were introduced to us by a former board member and they were in our offices in January of 2023. And the most important things for us were twofold. Number one, they shared our vision and belief that the corporate RIA independent is the winning model for the industry and for advisors and clients. And number two, who they are as people is very much who we are as people. They’re builders. Jason Diamond: Culturally. Shannon Spotswood: They have this servant heart growth mindset that they share with us. So I feel incredibly blessed to say they’re amazing partners. And what’s interesting, and I’ll share this very openly, they’re the majority owners of RFG. We were very early in that time of bringing them on. They have always honored the promise that they made to us, which is we run the business. They are a strategic partner. They’re a great thought partner. They are the capital provider, but there has been multiple examples where we have made business decisions where there’s been some heat in the kitchen, in the boardroom, and we’ve felt very strongly about it. So I just couldn’t say enough great things about them. And one thing that I will just share, and I say this because they’ve shared this with me, I have had this incredible personal journey of growth bringing such a deep bench in Long Ridge into the firm. And that has been certainly challenging at times. Do hard things, get comfortable being uncomfortable. It’s the ultimate definition. But I really think that is something that never gets talked about is what it means in upskilling the caliber of your talent, yourself, how you have to grow and evolve as an individual has been really, I won’t say it’s been easy, but I look back on what I’ve learned over these two years and just feel prepared as a leadership team, how we operate as a team, what is expected of us to be able to deliver and execute for our advisors in this next leg of growth. Jason Diamond: I think your marriage analogy is the perfect one, and I’m going to use it. And honestly, in a lot of ways. First of all, marriage is hard, good or bad. It’s hard. Second of all, it’s the ultimate… The institution of marriage is not good or bad. Private equity capital is not good or bad, but your answer is the right one. Pick your partner very wisely. My favorite part of your answer, because it’s the most original, was around a good capital backer, a good partner, whatever you want to call it, pushes you to be better. And I think that you’re surrounding yourself with, by definition, some of the smartest people in the industry, and that can’t be a bad thing. And the proof is in the pudding. The growth trajectory you’ve seen, it’s certainly no accident. I think part of it is tied to your incredible stewardship. You don’t have to answer that. You don’t have to be humble, but I’ll attribute it to you. That brings me to my next question. Shannon Spotswood: I do have to say really quickly. Jason Diamond: Please do. Shannon Spotswood: I will be celebrating my 27th wedding anniversary in October. So yeah, pick your partners. Jason Diamond: Congrats. And I feel equally blessed, I assume as you do. I have a great partner, I’ll say. I don’t know if she’s listening right now, but she’s a great spouse. What I was going to say though, good segue, I think there’s been more in recent years, but not a ton certainly of female C-suite wealth management executives. How do you feel about your role? Do you feel an increased burden? Is it an honor to you? Is it something that you don’t think much about at all? I’m curious what your thoughts are. Shannon Spotswood: I feel immense gratitude. I mean, just in general, leading RFG and locking arms with our team and our advisors is, I mean, a gift of a lifetime. I was incredibly fortunate to not just have mentors during my 20 years in San Francisco, but to have true sponsors. Whether it was the first hedge fund I worked at, I took that job because it was a female portfolio manager and at the time one of the only in the country. And she really opened up her heart to me and poured into me. And then 10 years at Symphony, the founding partners of Symphony, they dropped me into the deep end of the pool and gave me a lot of rope to make a lot of mistakes and continued to invest. So I have this foundation from which to build and to lead and to be ready for this role. I couldn’t do any of this without my partners. Rick and I have been partners for more than 10 years. It really does take a village in the same way that it takes a village to raise your family. It takes a village to find the courage and the strength to lead in a way that really honors the gravity of the mission. But I’ll tell you this. One, I knew I wanted to work on Wall Street from a very young age, so I chose this. I knew what I was getting into, that it was a male-dominated industry. I have made particularly, this is one of the unique facets of the wealth management business, we have phenomenal both male and female talent, and I have made the strongest female relationships on this side of the business as compared to the institutional side of the business. So I think there is a richness to our side of the industry that doesn’t get enough air cover. There are just phenomenal leaders, and I think increasingly so, we’re seeing more women stay in the game and raise into positions within the C-suite and leading these firms. I will tell you one thing in 2019, and I really give a lot of credit to Bobby for this in coaching me, is I was raised by wolves on Wall Street without question. I sat on a trade desk, I was completely comfortable with compartmentalizing emotion, and I made it a mission to develop intentionally my emotional intelligence. And that truly unlocked everything for me, and I think plays such a huge part of who I want to be and who I challenge myself to be as a leader. And so it’s funny when I get the question asked of me about being a female CEO, because I think that’s what people feel must be like came very intuitively to me, but I had to learn it. I had 20 plus years of being able to run with boys and I needed to develop that skill. And it is a skill that I challenge myself on a daily to continue to lean into. And I think it is increasingly important both for men and women who aspire to leadership to hone the strategic and execution alongside that emotional intelligence. Jason Diamond: Great answer. And I think you know I admire a lot about you, but it’s certainly one of the things I admire most about you is over the last couple years in particular you’ve been a real beacon of positivity, of empowerment in that regard. You’re active on socials, you’re active at industry events, you’re always willing to talk to people. And honestly, that to me is the answer. A lot of people complain about this as a problem, and I want to just take a second to applaud you because I think you and your firm actually do something to at least try and actively solve some of this. And also you mentioned it earlier, but same thing with some of the next gen dynamics. You skew much younger than the average firm on the industry. And I think that too is to your credit around, okay, we’ve identified that we have a major succession problem in our industry. What are we doing to solve that? Shannon Spotswood: Absolutely. Jason Diamond: Let’s talk about growth a little bit. I agree with your thesis. This space you occupy, no better time to be in it. We’re at the perfect spot on the J-curve. Unfortunately, we are not the only two people to think that. There are also, I think, some other firms. This space has become crowded. What do you think about that? Just the fact that there’s more competition than ever. I mean, my view of it is there are enough quality advisors to go around, but curious what you think. Shannon Spotswood: Anytime I find myself wading into the waters of fear and scarcity around this topic, I’m reminded that 67% of the assets still remain within the wirehouse and IBD space. We got lots of room to run. I believe in a mindset of abundance. The data will tell us that the demand for advice is increasing by 30% over the next decade while the number of advisors is decreasing by 1%. So we’ve got, find me another industry where you see a graph that looks like that. On top of that, next gen, which I think this is so fascinating, next gen actually wants more advice when compared to the baby boomers. So baby boomers created our industry, and here we are sitting on $87 trillion worth of generational wealth that’s going to begin to transition. That doesn’t even include all of the wealth that will be monetized through real estate and family-owned businesses. It is a tsunami. And what is, I think, really interesting is that next gen recognizes the value of their time. I’m sure if I had a conversation, Jason, with you and my husband about how intentional you want to be in terms of showing up for your children and the equal nature of parenting, that alone is changing the way the next gen thinks about both their professions as well as their family life, which means you by default have to hire professionals to do the things that you don’t want to spend the time doing. Jason Diamond: Really good point. Shannon Spotswood: So we have this incredible convergence that’s happening right now, and it’s coming at a time that technology is finally going to allow us to serve more families more intentionally along that wealth spectrum. So it is like, bring it on. There is more than enough to go around. We are in an era of abundance. And what I worry the most about, and this, it’s like climb up on the soapbox and let’s roll, about independence because I see and have so many conversations with advisors where they have been willing to accept such a compromised service experience that they would never allow to be delivered to their clients. So advisors are delivering this 24-hour concierge, high-touch, deeply thoughtful experience, estate planning, tax planning, financial planning, multi-generational conversations. They’re in it. They’re in the trench. And then they turn around and their service partner is so subpar. They’re compromising their growth. They’re burying them in compliance and ops and clicks and swivel chair and tech that doesn’t work. So we’re at the very beginning of this bull run for advice. And I think advisors who recognize, I want to serve more families, I want more control over my time, I want to be able to build enterprise value on my personal balance sheet, have room to do it. So I welcome the competition. I think the best way to talk about it is iron sharpens iron. I learn so much from our peers and like, ah, they did this or they did that. How do we think more disruptively, more innovatively? How do we do it differently? So I think there’s a lot of room for all of us. You’re going to be busy, my friend. You’re already sitting there advising the lion’s share of the big deals, and I think you guys are just getting started as well. Jason Diamond: Yeah, it certainly feels like a bull market for advice and also I think a bull market for some of the… You allude to an interesting paradox, which is some of the biggest and most sophisticated advisors in the industry have really high-touch impressive service models, but they don’t seem to demand the same in return. I have some thoughts as to why. I think one could just be Kool-Aid drinking, like you don’t know any better and you’ve been there for so long. There’s just so much friction associated with moving a business and fear associated that it’s unless things get really dire or unless I find something that’s better enough or meaningfully better enough, I can gut it out. But the third one that comes to mind is these firms we’re talking about have unequivocally, they do a lot of good, a lot of bad, but unequivocally one of the things they do really well is brand. Shannon Spotswood: Yeah. Jason Diamond: How do you reconcile that question with a firm that obviously doesn’t have a brand that the average American consumer would know? Shannon Spotswood: We take a posture on this that is rooted in an Accenture study that was conducted several years ago, but I think still remains so true today, is that advisors think that the value proposition that their clients are looking for, either it’s that big monobrand that’s advertising at the Super Bowl or the alpha they’re ever able to generate or the portfolio investments. But the clients tell us that what they’re looking for in an advisor is, do you get me? Do you share my values? And do I want to spend time with you outside the office? And that is basically distilled down the way we talk about it is people connect with people. So now more than ever, particularly if you take a big step back and you think about the influencer economy and how brands, big brands, Nike or big consumer brands have really leaned into niche branding. How do I get my brand into the hands of someone who’s very passionate about it? So advisors who develop their own brand, who have a presence on social, who have a presence in AEO and SEO, who are leaning in and expressing not only their client experience, but their vision and their values through their brand, I actually think as this generational wealth unfolds, that authenticity carries so much more weight than is my name on a football stadium. So it is those three factors. It’s just I’m comfortable. I don’t want ripple. It is friction and fear for sure. And then it’s like that branding is up for grabs because we certainly see one of the most fun parts of advisors joining RFG, this is a big part of what we do is helping them design and develop or reimagine their brand name, their logo, all the rest of it. Once that creative energy is unlocked and you get to tell your story, your my why, that connective tissue is so powerful with the clients and with the growth that comes from that because I mean, I truly believe people connect with people. They’re looking for that. And I think more so now than ever with AI. Jason Diamond: You just took the words out of my mouth. Do you think AI perpetuates that? Shannon Spotswood: I think people are craving that. And this is why advisors who are powered by AI without question are going to win. Advisors are not going to be disrupted by AI unless they haven’t made the move to get themselves in a position to be able to leverage the technology, the brand, the talent, the maximizing of their time. But especially with something as important and as personal as money, as you walk through life, I mean, you are at the very beginning. I’m sending, I’ll have all three kids in college. But as you make these critical decisions in your life, whether it’s getting married or starting a business or changing jobs or buying your first house, buying your vacation house, all of these things, you can go right or you can go wrong. And having a trusted partner who really understands you, I actually think that we’re going to see the fees paid for advisors increasing as there is a greater premium placed on, I want deeply personal relationships that are tailor-made for me. Jason Diamond: But I assume the flip side of that is you have to do more. You as a firm and you as an advisor have to do more, and you can’t just raise fees with the same service model. So I think what is the corollary of that? What are some of the ancillary growth areas that you do beyond the financial planning and asset management that says, “We’re worth that money you’re going to pay us”? Shannon Spotswood: It is, and I love the work that wealth.com is doing here. I mean, the estate planning and tax planning, making that more accessible along that continuum of wealth spectrum, the blurring of the lines between ultra high net worth and high net worth, and then mass affluent is so exciting. Better, more robust planning is good for our industry overall. Obviously there’s a huge amount of demand on the tax side of things, particularly the 1040. It’s easy to find a CPA to do the cool complex stuff. It’s increasingly more challenging for advisors. That’s an area that I know a lot of firms have leaned into. We’re certainly doing a lot of work. But so much of this, Jason, is showing up at the right time for clients with the resources. It’s a really interesting conversation about, yes, you have to do more for your clients, but you don’t have to do more for all your clients at exactly the same time. Jason Diamond: That’s well said. The flip side of that is as an advisor, because ultimately the advisors are the ones making this decision. There are a lot of firms, and not even just firms that you would be competitors with, because the reality is you and I understand the industry landscape and where various firms fit in. For many advisors, it’s a long list of various firm names that they’ve heard. So what are some things that you think advisors should be asking a firm like you or a business development person at your firm to suss this out? How does an advisor go about understanding if a platform is empty or is really going to be able to deliver in all these areas? Shannon Spotswood: Remember back in the day when the Wall Street Journal used to run have a monkey throw a dart and see if you can beat the pros on stock picking? I love to do that with regards to our advisors. We always tell our prospects, “Throw a dart at any advisor that’s affiliated with RFG and call them. Certainly we can provide a list of advisors who we think you’re going to most align with in terms of what your growth ambitions are or the way you want to run your business or who you are, life stage, all the rest of it.” But I do think that getting that unfiltered experience, the good, the bad, the ugly. We always are like, “Are we perfect? Absolutely not. Do we though immediately want the feedback so that we can iterate to excellence to get better? Absolutely. Get that firsthand testimony.” So that’s number one. Number two is don’t tell me, show me. There are so many, and it always pulls at my heart because as much as I love to win business and transition advisors, and I think that we’re working certainly at RFG on some really interesting technology that is anchored around removing that friction and fear by speeding up the time that you can make that transition in. And the tech is finally there to allow for this. So I think we’re going to be able to take variable number two and at least make that box a little bit smaller. But if I’m sitting as an advisor, I would want to see the evidence. Show me how you’ve solved the problems that advisors have brought to you. How have you refined your tech stack? How have you invested in your team? How have you made the decisions where the ROI can be measurable and tangible? And I think too often I’m surprised that advisors get, it’s almost as if they get overwhelmed by the amount of information that they’re taking in trying to compare all these different firms. If I’m ever asked, I’m like, please work with a third-party recruiter. You need someone not only to act as an interpreter, but you need someone to help really keep your top three priorities at the front of your decision-making matrix, because it really is apples to oranges to orangutans and you get decision fatigue. And then advisors end up making this decision that is anchored in like, well, this is the highest payout, and I’m willing to take all of these sacrifices and paper cuts for this highest payout. And that is just such a travesty. So it’s like, know what you want. What are your top three problems that you’re trying to solve? Talk to advisors that you get to pick just so you can do some secret shopping, and then demand evidence of how the firm, the platform has responded to feedback and gotten better as a result because that will tell you, are they really going to walk the walk or are they just going to talk the talk? Jason Diamond: I’m super grateful that you gave specifics there because it’s an easy question to dodge and talk around. So I completely agree. Your first answer, actually all three of those points you just made, but certainly doing name-blind calls, and I say name-blind because advisors worry about confidentiality. I think that’s one of the best and most underrated tools to learn about a firm is advisors now have so many colleagues. There’s been this diaspora of advisors where advisors know advisors everywhere. And that’s a benefit if you wanted to go and just network and have conversations with other advisors on your own. But if you’re worried about confidentiality, there’s certainly the mechanisms, and we do this all the time for advisors to set up name-blind calls. You dial into a conference line, it’s John Smith, and you pick an advisor’s brain and say, “Hey, you moved your book from LPL to RFG, and tell me what that experience was like and what were the positives? Give me all the negatives.” To your point, you want advisors to ask those questions in advance. It’s better to ask those questions than to end up in the wrong marriage with the advisor. Shannon Spotswood: Absolutely. And the other thing is what an easy answer to BS around is tell me who’s a good fit for your firm. And it’s like, “Everyone’s welcome here.” Jason Diamond: Everybody. Yeah. Shannon Spotswood: It’s just not true. RFG is not a good fit for an advisor who is not open to using technology, who is not interested in outsourcing investment management, who doesn’t want to have a conversation about how are you spending your time and do you want to create enterprise value? Do you want to grow? So it really is important to have that vulnerability and that honesty and the answer to that question. Jason Diamond: I love it. We have time for one more. I can’t believe it’s been almost an hour. Shannon Spotswood: I know, it flies by. Jason Diamond: We speak with plenty of advisors who aren’t considering a move, but I’m interested. I think you have a really nice lens into the industry. What is one thing you wish advisors knew? You have a megaphone to just talk to advisors who maybe are considering change, but maybe aren’t. What’s the questions they should be thinking about? What keeps you up at night? Just what would be your public service announcement? Shannon Spotswood: I’m going to focus on the friction and fear because that’s the number one barrier to making a move is PTSD, either first person PTSD or the collective negative experience that the industry has had. It took me 90 days to transition. I got sued by my former firm. I lost all these clients. I didn’t have income. The wise tales of fear are very widely trafficked and widespread. And what I would say to an advisor is everything you want is on the other side of fear. And I look at all of this data that suggests exactly the opposite, which is you have the relationship with the client. You have the trust with the client. You are the one who they call on Sunday night when they need a shoulder to cry on or sage advice for making a decision. Just believe it with the core of your being because what we see is 99% of assets transition, whether it’s a restrictive transition or you’re taking full data, that the majority of assets are transitioning within 30 days, that this is still a free country, and you can make a move while honoring your contract around non-solicitation, non-competes, and non-associations. So it is like this fear of holding advisors back is preventing them from realizing and monetizing this enterprise value, but equally as importantly, loving their business. Have fun. This should be fun. We spend the majority of our life at work. And so being able to surround yourself with people who win when you win, with a team who’s aligned and isn’t just drudgery with all their operations compliance headaches that they’re dealing with. Your team deserves to be happy. You deserve to be happy. And that fear factor is holding so many advisors back. So that’s my advice is that it just doesn’t have to play out that way. And I think not just at RFG, collectively where we are as an independent industry with technology, with the way that AI is changing and our ability to harness data and business intelligence, getting to that point of next best action, how am I spending my time, how am I realizing, what is the blueprint for realizing my growth goals is more tangible now than ever. That’s immediately where I go. Jason Diamond: I’ve never been an advisor. I’ve never had a book of business, so I don’t want to minimize the fear, but I will say this. If we speak to advisors, let’s say a year post-transition, by far the number one thing we hear from them is, “I wish I did this sooner.” Shannon Spotswood: Wish I did it sooner. Jason Diamond: And that to me is the most telling data point there is to your point about fear and getting over it. Shannon Spotswood: So I do this exercise all the time with our team as we’re onboarding advisors is I want you to go home and look at your spouse and tell them, “I’m going to leave my job. I have no certainty that everything is going to work out. We might not receive any kind of compensation. Are you cool with that?” Walk that emotional journey. And while there’s plenty obviously that we can do with Capital Solutions to ease the financial fear associated with it, I still think at the baseline, it’s a great exercise to keep everyone very humble. You are asking an advisor to take their life’s work. And someone was sharing this analogy with me the other day and I was like, “Oh my gosh, that’s so good,” which is imagine moving houses. It’s such a hassle packing up moving one house. Now imagine moving 400 households or 1,200 households. It’s a lot, but I always hear the same thing, “I wish I’d done it sooner.” Jason Diamond: Thank you for sharing. You had some really sage wisdom that you shared with our audience. I can’t wait to see the next chapter, the continuation of the J-curve. This has been a fantastic episode, Shannon. Thank you. Shannon Spotswood: I love being with you, Jason. Thank you so much. We appreciate it. Mindy Diamond: As a financial advisor, you hold yourself to the highest standards of integrity, honesty, and credibility. You are successful because you take your professional responsibilities seriously and are dedicated to your clients. But are you living your best business life? Are your goals aligned with your firms or could a better option exist? Should I Stay or Should I Go? is a book written with you in mind. It’s a self-guided journey that walks you through the key steps that we take with our advisor clients. This strategic thought process and roadmap to professional self-discovery is designed to help you ask the right questions and think critically and objectively, whether you’re considering change or not. Learn how to get your copy at diamond-consultants.com/thebook.

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  4. Number 4: Why AI Matters Now: How a $1.5B RIA is Building the Firm of the Future

    Ryan Belanger — Founder & CEO, Claro Advisors Most firms are adding AI to existing workflows. Ryan Belanger chose a different path, acquiring a fintech company and rebuilding Claro Advisors around an AI-native platform. He explains why he believes the future belongs to firms that rethink how they operate, not just the tools they use. In Summary Most firms view AI as another technology investment. Ryan Belanger sees it as a business strategy. Louis sits down with the Founder & CEO of Claro Advisors to discuss why his $1.5 billion RIA acquired a fintech company, built an AI-native operating platform, and believes the firms that gain the biggest advantage won’t simply adopt new technology—they’ll rethink how their businesses are built. The conversation also explores the broader philosophy behind that decision. Ryan shares why he’s consistently chosen unconventional paths—from recruiting younger advisors and embracing a partnership model built around ownership to investing in proprietary technology instead of relying on third-party solutions. For advisors, the bigger question isn’t simply how AI will change their workflow. It’s how it may change what it takes to build a durable, differentiated advisory firm. The Storyline Every generation of wealth management has been shaped by a different competitive advantage. For some, independence paved the way to build unique branding and a bespoke client experience. Inorganic growth and M&A gave many firms access to scale and growth. Today, many believe the next advantage will come from artificial intelligence. But simply adopting AI may not be enough. Ryan Belanger has spent his career challenging conventional thinking. He left Morgan Stanley in 2012, well before independence became mainstream. He built Claro Advisors by investing in younger advisors instead of competing for established producers. He embraced a partnership model centered on advisor ownership rather than restrictive employment structures. And when AI began reshaping the industry, he made another unconventional decision: instead of licensing another technology platform, Claro acquired a fintech company and built its own AI-native operating system. Louis explores the reasoning behind each decision and the philosophy that connects them. Ryan explains why he believes proprietary technology will become a defining competitive advantage, how Claro’s AI platform, Claire, is changing advisor workflows, and why the biggest opportunity isn’t replacing advisors; it’s giving them more time to do the work clients value most. The conversation also tackles practical questions facing every advisory firm: how to integrate AI responsibly, where human judgment continues to matter most, and why the firms best positioned for the future may be the ones willing to redesign their businesses instead of simply adding another layer of technology. Topics Covered AI-native advisory firms Acquiring a fintech versus licensing technology Building proprietary advisor technology Advisor productivity and workflow automation Recruiting and developing younger advisors 1099 partnership model and advisor autonomy Enterprise building and long-term differentiation AI governance and advisor trust The future of wealth management technology > Download a transcript of this episode… Listen and Learn Highlights for Advisors Why did Ryan launch independently long before it became common? (7:30) Ryan explains why leaving Morgan Stanley in 2012 wasn’t simply about independence—it was about creating a better business model while betting on himself. Why recruit emerging advisors instead of established producers? (15:00) Ryan shares why investing in younger advisors has become one of Claro’s greatest competitive advantages and succession strategies. Why would an RIA buy a technology company? (23:45) Rather than licensing another platform, Ryan explains why Claro acquired NDVR to build proprietary technology that could fundamentally change advisor workflows. How does Claire actually help advisors day-to-day? (33:00) From meeting preparation and client follow-up to portfolio management and workflow automation, Ryan walks through how AI is saving advisors meaningful time. Will AI replace advisors—or make them better? (36:30) Ryan discusses where AI belongs, where human advice remains essential, and why he believes technology should enhance – not replace – the advisor relationship. What does the advisory firm of the future look like? (38:20) Ryan shares his long-term view of how AI, proprietary technology, and advisor expectations will reshape wealth management over the next decade. Key Takeaways Ryan believes firms that build AI into the foundation of their businesses will create greater long-term differentiation than those simply adding new software. Claro’s acquisition of a fintech company reflects a strategy of owning core technology rather than relying exclusively on third-party vendors. AI is most valuable when it eliminates administrative work, allowing advisors to spend more time serving clients. Recruiting younger advisors and investing in long-term talent has become a defining part of Claro’s growth strategy. Advisor autonomy, equity participation, and technology can create stronger retention than restrictive employment models. Human relationships remain central to wealth management, even as AI becomes increasingly capable. The firms that adapt fastest may be those willing to rethink their operating model—not just their technology stack. https://youtu.be/7XvSXi0PzXI Quotable Moments “I wanted to build something that was integrated instead of just layering another tool on top.” “We’re trying to make really good advisors become super advisors.” “Clients still want advice from a person—but they’re going to expect that person to know how to use AI.” “The firms that win won’t necessarily be the ones using the most technology. They’ll be the ones building differently.” FAQs Why did Claro Advisors acquire a fintech company? Ryan believed owning proprietary technology would create greater long-term differentiation than licensing another collection of third-party tools. What is Claire by Claro? Claire is Claro Advisors’ AI-powered chief of staff, designed to automate advisor workflows, prepare meetings, organize client information, and streamline operational tasks. How is Claro using AI differently than many RIAs? Rather than layering AI onto multiple disconnected applications, Claro built an integrated operating platform where AI has access to the advisor’s workflow, planning, portfolio, and client information. Will AI replace financial advisors? Ryan believes AI will automate much of the administrative work advisors perform today, but that clients—particularly those with more complex needs—will continue to value human advice and relationships. How does Claro recruit advisors? The firm emphasizes advisor ownership, partnership, equity participation, technology, and operational support instead of relying primarily on acquisition-based recruiting models. What does Ryan believe will differentiate advisory firms in the future? He believes proprietary technology, integrated AI, and the ability to improve advisor productivity will become increasingly important competitive advantages. Ryan believed owning proprietary technology would create greater long-term differentiation than licensing another collection of third-party tools. Claire is Claro Advisors’ AI-powered chief of staff, designed to automate advisor workflows, prepare meetings, organize client information, and streamline operational tasks. Rather than layering AI onto multiple disconnected applications, Claro built an integrated operating platform where AI has access to the advisor’s workflow, planning, portfolio, and client information. Ryan believes AI will automate much of the administrative work advisors perform today, but that clients—particularly those with more complex needs—will continue to value human advice and relationships. The firm emphasizes advisor ownership, partnership, equity participation, technology, and operational support instead of relying primarily on acquisition-based recruiting models. He believes proprietary technology, integrated AI, and the ability to improve advisor productivity will become increasingly important competitive advantages. Related Resources Why AI Matters Now: Filling the Estate Planning Gap with Wealth.com Emotional Intelligence: The “Untouchable” Differentiator in an AI World Diamond Consultants Annual Advisor Transition Report Ryan BelangerChief Executive Officer & Founder Ryan founded Claro Advisors in 2012 after seven years at Morgan Stanley. He named the company after a Latin phrase “to make clear in the mind.” All Claro advisors strive to give their clients clarity and transparency, core tenants of the firm. Claro is continuously recognized within industry for its growth and thought leadership. In 2004, Ryan received a BA in Economics from The College of the Holy Cross and in 2009, he earned the Certified Financial Planner™ distinction. He is most proud of his philanthropic activity. Along with his wife Rachel, they started a foundation that raises money for genetic research in the name of their late daughter, Bella. Their focus is on extreme rare disease. Ryan resides in Boston’s Back Bay with his wife Rachel and their three children. He enjoys exercising, golfing, reading and spending time with his family. He has been featured in numerous magazines and industry publications and is regularly on television sharing his market thoughts. NOTE: The views and opinions expressed by the guests on this podcast are their own and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of Diamond Consultants. Neither Diamond Consultants nor the guests on this podcast are compensated in any way for their participation. View the transcript of this episode… Why AI Matters Now: How a $1.5B RIA is Building the Firm of the Future A conversation with Louis Diamond and Ryan Belanger, Founder & CEO of Claro Advisors. Louis Diamond: Welcome to the latest episode of our podcast series for financial advisors. Today’s episode is Why AI Matters Now: How a $1.5B RIA is Building the Firm of the Future. It’s a conversation with Ryan Belanger, the Founder and CEO of Claro Advisors. I’m Louis Diamond, and this is the Diamond Podcast for Financial Advisors. Mindy Diamond: At Diamond Consultants, we help elite advisors identify the right environment for their businesses to thrive, whether that’s at a wirehouse, boutique, or independent firm. With nearly three decades of experience, we’ve guided thousands of advisors and represented more than a quarter of a trillion dollars in assets transitioned. And each year, one in four advisors managing a billion dollars or more who change firms are our clients. Our process is education driven, and based on building relationships, starting as your strategic partner well before you’re even thinking of a move. To schedule a confidential conversation, call us at (908) 879-1002. Wondering why advisors change firms and where they’re headed? Are transition deals going up or down? Those very questions and more inspired us to create our annual Advisor Transition Report. It’s the award-winning data-driven resource designed for advisors that connects the dots between the motivations around movement and the firm’s appetite for top talent. Arm yourself with the knowledge you need to make smart decisions. Download your copy at diamond-consultants.com/transitionreport. Louis Diamond: Artificial intelligence has quickly become one of the biggest topics in wealth management in the world. Almost every firm is experimenting with new tools, looking for ways to automate tasks, improve efficiency, or help advisors serve clients more effectively. But what if AI isn’t just another technology to plug into your business? What if it becomes the foundation for how your business is built? That’s exactly why I wanted to have Ryan Belanger on the show. Ryan is the Founder and CEO of Claro Advisors, a billion and a half dollar RIA that’s taken a very different path than most firms in the industry. Rather than simply adding AI to an existing tech stack, Claro acquired a FinTech company and is building its own AI native operating system designed specifically for advisors. What’s interesting is that this isn’t really a conversation about software, it’s about strategy. Ryan has consistently gone against the grain from leaving Morgan Stanley to launch an independent firm in 2012 before it became commonplace, to recruiting younger advisors when others chased established producers, to betting that proprietary technology will become one of the biggest competitive advantages an advisory firm can have. If AI is going to reshape wealth management, and I think it will, the firms that benefit most may not be the ones using the most tools. They may be the ones rethinking how the entire business operates. Ryan shares what that looks like in practice, what he’s seeing from advisors today, and why he believes the next generation of advisory firms will look fundamentally different from the firms we’ve known over the last two decades. There’s a lot to cover, so let’s get to it. Ryan, thanks for joining us today. Ryan Belanger: Yeah, nice to see you. Louis Diamond: You too, good to see you again. For those who aren’t familiar with you and your firm Claro, why don’t you walk us through your background and how you found your way into the industry to set the table. Ryan Belanger: Yeah, sounds good. So background was after college, I got a job at Morgan Stanley. I’d done an internship while in college and that gentleman, Morgan Dewey, said you should look at the Morgan Stanley. So I applied, got a job immediately, and just a couple weeks after graduating, I began as a financial advisor in a training program at Morgan Stanley and spent a good amount of time there and was able to develop skills necessary that really I had all along just growing up, a lot of entrepreneurial spirit I think is important in this business, how to relate to people, some competitiveness. I just happened to luck out and get into a profession that rewarded some of those skill sets. Louis Diamond: I’d say it was the right choice for you. So I think you started at Morgan Stanley in 2004. You were 21, 22 years old, just cutting your teeth, but the financial crisis happens a handful of years later. So what was it like being a relative newbie and seeing client accounts falling, the world crumbling every day? What did living through that crash teach you that’s shaped how you’ve built your business or serve clients now? Ryan Belanger: I did learn a tremendous amount at Morgan Stanley and I do still tell people if they’re looking to start at a big shop with big training programs and resources and really try to figure out what you like and then you can go off and get more specialized. But I do feel like it was a great place to get trained. They would post how many cold calls we were making every day. So on the board every morning you’d walk in and say, “Okay, where did you fall?” And I’m a competitive person, and I just want to make sure I was first every single day. So it was those type of things that really propelled me to keep interested in this business but also see the benefits. It’s really hard to get clients and that’s what people underestimate the most is to build the level of trust with someone that they’ll allow you to manage their retirement nest egg is it takes time. And I was 22, I looked really young, I had no experience, but I was fortunate to have two great mentors at Morgan Stanley, a gentleman named Todd Wetzel. He was brilliant at developing relationships, really caring for people. And then the gentleman that I had done an internship with went to Morgan Stanley as well, and he allowed me to work on some small accounts and really cut my teeth with some customers. And I was very fortunate to have done that, but you’d asked about the crash, and I think what I learned from that when people were literally weeping when their account values were down by 50%, 60% was that money is really emotional, and you have to understand how much it means to people, it’s not just the number on your screen. So having some empathy towards someone who’s really in a period of distress is now a critical skill that those of us have been around for this long understand. And there’s a whole generation, Louis, of advisors that have never experienced a real bear market, and I do fear for them at some point because when you go through that, it really changes the perspective that you have. But for me, it happened, I was four or five years into the business at that point, so I’m thankful that it happened just for my own personal development and I’ll never forget it. Louis Diamond: Yeah. Things have a way of happening for a reason and then the best advisors, best humans, they learn from them, and they’re better off for it. You’re very much right. I like that perspective about how the empathy around the emotions of money was something that you still carry and wear as a badge of honor today. So you left Morgan Stanley in 2012. I think you were 30 years old I read. One, that’s very young to consider leaving a firm like that nonetheless to go independent when in 2012, it wasn’t like everyone was going independent. There weren’t as many infrastructure providers or tech vendors or as much capital available as there is today. It definitely wasn’t a path that was as well-worn as it was. So two-part question, what pushed you to leave the firm presumably without a huge book of business? And second part, how’d you think about risk and reward at that age? Ryan Belanger: Yeah, what drove me was ultimately I felt like I was not seeing the value from the firm I was at, Morgan Stanley at the time. They were just taking an exorbitant amount of the revenue I felt. And I would see product managers strolling through and going to steak dinners, and I’m thinking, geez, I’m here every night on weekends. I’m busting my butt, and I should be creating more value to myself. And so that was one kind of thing. And I think there was a right level of naivete just to think that I could pull this off. I did believe that I had a small number of clients. I was hopeful that they would come because I had to hit a minimum for the custodian platform to start the RIA, which I was able to do. But I felt that they would come with me and that I had developed enough trust with them that I could be their advisor for a long time. And so for me, it felt like the technology wasn’t great. I was just told the mother-in-law is an expression. She says to my kids sometimes, “You get what you get and you don’t get upset.” Have you heard that expression? Louis Diamond: I have. My daughter reads a book where that line is repeated frequently. Ryan Belanger: Yeah, okay. So that’s how I felt then. I was like, “This is what you have and deal with it.” And to me, it just felt like there had to be a better way, but I didn’t have any capital backing, so I bootstrapped it. I Craigslisted an office from an estate planning attorney. I cold called Fidelity at the time they were our only custodian. I called to get some compliance help and I just thought that there’d be other people that would want to join. I named the firm, it’s a Latin phrase, it’s Claro Advisors, and it means to make clear in the mind. And I felt like not only was I trying to do that for clients, but I was trying to push advisors to challenge the norms here. There are other solutions out there. So I purposefully did put my name on it, I knew that there’d be other people that might feel the same way. I’ve always been a team sport guy. I like being around other people and collaborating. And I did have a good friend and credit to him. He said, “If you put this together, I’ll come with you.” And so just a couple weeks after I did, we talked and I said, “It’s up and running.” He came and Dana was our first, he’s still with us. And then a couple of months later, another guy I used to work with called and said, “Hey, I’m at this bank, and it looks like what you’ve done is interesting.” And I said, “We like it if you’d like to give it a try.” And so he came, his name’s Mike. He’s still with us. And so teams started to get put together. But I met someone in 2014, so I was two years in at that point and I was doing legitimately everything, not only as an advisor, but just all the stuff that you have to do to run the business. And it was becoming too much, especially the compliance. And I think nowadays starting an RIA, the threshold is so much higher. That’s why you see better than anyone else. You just see a lot more tuck-ins. But Jen Street was someone that I met and she really allowed me to catapult the business and scale it, so she took over all the operations and compliance and that really freed me up to be an advisor. And I really was just an advisor moonlighting as someone running. I would recruit a little bit or just be introductions, very soft. All that has changed based on what we’ve done in the last couple of years. Louis Diamond: Amazing. So thinking about risk spectrum, obviously now if you look back and say, “Hey, I had 30 million or whatever it was, I didn’t have anything to lose.” Right? But when you’re in it and you had income, you had recurring revenue, you had a paycheck versus the dynamic of, “I’m going to incur a bunch of expenses. I’m not positive who’s going to come with me. I’m not going to have a paycheck for a period of time.” Did the fact that your business was relatively small and you were just getting up and running, do you think it made it easier for you to reconcile that risk, or in some ways it was harder because your dispersion, if someone didn’t come, was that much higher? Ryan Belanger: I think it was easier for me, I knew I could always go to another firm. They would take me and whatever clients I had. I did it at a time when I had little personal risk, no kids, no mortgage. I didn’t have a wife at that point. So for me, it felt like the right time to take a risk. And I had been entrepreneurial in my life. I mean, I had a business in high school and my parents and grandparents were entrepreneurial. So that was in me, even if I didn’t really recognize it, was that I was okay with a good level of risk. And I do say this now to anyone that I’m hoping to partner with is that if you want to bet on yourself, I’ll go all in on you too. But you’ve got to be able to take that jump. I won’t let you fail, but you’ve got to be the one. I think that inertia is what a lot of advisors are like, “Geez, I don’t know, I got to give something up.” And that’s why the data’s important and you have all the data. The clients overwhelmingly go with the advisor. These days it’s just much harder to try to establish a new relationship with a trusted advisor than it is to just DocuSign some forms and move your account somewhere. So to me, it’s just trying to support people, and really push them to the edge and say, “No, this is possible. You should definitely explore this.” And I get it’s totally different, and you might be at a different life stage, but you know the numbers. I mean, tens of thousands of advisors are moving every year and not all of them have a small book like I did when I did it. Louis Diamond: Right, exactly. On one hand, making this entrepreneurial move as early in your career as you did, it was a benefit, right? Because you didn’t have as much to lose, like you said, the stage of life you’re in allowed you to absorb more risk. On the other end of the spectrum, if someone who has a massive business with immense value, they’re well situated financially, maybe their kids are through college, et cetera. And then most people are somewhere in the middle. So it’s interesting hearing that dynamic in real time. Let’s talk about Claro today. So you launched the business, like you said, you had to work hard to meet a minimum custodial threshold. So started from a very small base in 2012, but where is it today as far as assets, team size? Just give us some stats or perspective on what you’ve built in the last decade and a half or so. Ryan Belanger: Yeah, sure. So we enjoyed a tremendous amount of organic growth, Louis. We are not capital-backed. We don’t buy books of businesses, so I would recruit or partner with advisors that were coming from all the various places that you could think of that were finding us to be a very friendly place to work where you had a high level of autonomy, freedom, control, just great economics. We stayed out of people’s ways. We were just good people trying to help other good people, and it was just that friendly environment that allowed us to grow. And of course, we can’t discount market. I think markets had a tremendous growth for everybody in the business. And so the business as it stands right now, we’re about 1.5 billion in assets, 15 to 20 advisors. We got a 40-person team based primarily at a Boston headquarter, but we have advisors all over. And I think as we’ll get to, we’ve just gone through a really exciting new chapter for us where the next 15 years are going to look a lot different than the previous 15 years. Louis Diamond: Very cool. That’s amazing, and I’m in the recruiting businesses and doing recruiting yourself, it’s not easy to tell your story, get in front of the right people, the right like-minded people too, who are willing to take the leap to you, especially if you don’t have the capital backing and you can’t pay big deals or write big checks like others could, so that’s a massive testament to you and your vision. I know the average age of an advisor at Claro is around 40, yet the average advisor in the industry is 59, 60, 61, depending upon what data source you look at. What do you think you figured out about attracting, training, and really cultivating younger advisors that the rest of the industry either gets wrong or ignores? What’s been your hack in that regard? Ryan Belanger: I’ll just take a chance on people that others might not. And typically what that really means is someone with nothing, I’ll make them a deal and I’ll say, “Look, I believe in you. I think you’d be a great advisor. Let’s work on an arrangement where you feel like you can do this and I’ll support you.” And so our specialty was growing advisors from 20 million or 30 million into hundreds of million of client assets. And some of it was just being willing to look where others wouldn’t possibly want to spend their time. But when I was 22, someone took a chance on me, and so I owe it to the next generation to do that as well because there’s some great talent out there that really just isn’t getting the attention they deserve because they don’t have big books of business yet. But one of my core values is long-term thinking, and so that’s the way I frame my decisions is it doesn’t have to be a win today, but it can be a championship tomorrow or down three or five years from now. And so that’s how I’ve positioned it. I think that’s why we tend to get younger advisors. And then what happens when you get a lot of younger advisors, you have some older advisors say, “Hey, look, that’s an attractive bench of talent. I needed a succession plan. You guys seem to have a bunch of guys and gals that know how to do really great work and serve clients.” But I think that’s probably one of the things that I just was willing to take some chances on people at an earlier stage. Louis Diamond: Yep. I love it. I mean, once again, you said in the beginning, you developed an empathy for the emotional side of money and what people were going through that you carry through to this day. So not losing touch with the fact that you started. I mean, everyone starts in this business at some time, but I feel like once you’re successful or you’re through the first few years, you forget what it was like to be a newbie. So keeping that perspective and appreciation for the mentors you had, et cetera, is great. And honestly, from a business building standpoint, to me in this environment, unless you take on private equity capital, or you have capital from a BD or from a wirehouse behind you for recruiting, it’s really hard to win advisors with large books of business. So going in the blue part of the ocean instead of the red ocean, if anyone’s read that book, is very smart, looking under rocks that others don’t or really buying into or leaning into folks that you see something in that you know you can cultivate is a brilliant way. And it’s honestly more scalable, cheaper, you build a better business as well doing it the way that you do, but still, it’s hard. And my guess is the ROI is shorter. I’m sure you’ve made some hires that don’t pan out. So you have to have the tolerance and the demeanor to really invest in people. So long-winded way to say I love what you’re doing. How much of your recruitment of advisors and the retention of that talent as they become successful would you tie to how you compensate them, or equity if that’s available versus the culture of the firm and the mentorship that you and your team provide? Ryan Belanger: Yeah, I mean I’ll speak to what we’re offering now just because that’s more relevant, and so we are positioning ourselves now as the best home for advisors in the country and we really believe that’s the case, but our problem is we’re just a secret. We’ve just come to the market after our deal and all the technology that I know we’ll talk about. So we’re now marketing this message to advisors that want to partner with us. Economics will help them grow. We have a really interesting growth program. We’ll give them equity and Claro. I firmly believe that we should tie each other, just get in the same boat, so to speak. So our success is their success, but allowing them to operate in a 1099 model, which I know is not a popular strategy. I know everyone wants to buy books and own the assets and own the clients, but I feel there’s a tremendous amount of advisors that do not that probably should not be monetizing their businesses so quickly. And so I’m trying to foster a home for those like-minded advisors that want the autonomy to own their clients, maybe even still have a brand, but partner with a firm that’s got really credible technology, just unbelievable back office support and a firm of the future so that they can grow at 10X to what they could have on their own and then they could monetize. That’s what we’ve tried to put together here with our partnership model. Louis Diamond: Love it. Yeah, I mean it is definitely going against the grain a little bit, leaning into growing a 1099 model versus more of an acquisition model where everyone coming over as W-2s. So do you think about those trade-offs when it comes time to raising capital down the line or if you want to sell the business or even just an advisor wants to leave, that would stink if that happened. How do you think about those trade-offs? The ability to let advisors keep control and ownership. And honestly, in my view, probably win many people that you wouldn’t otherwise versus the stickiness, and the enterprise building abilities of owning the books of business. Ryan Belanger: Yeah, it’s a paradox because I understand why you want to own the client, but that’s a different business model. And frankly, I think it attracts different type of people. I had to really look myself in the mirror a couple years ago. We had enjoyed a tremendous amount of success, high growth and all organic, growing at 30% more per year on a CAGR basis. Nothing could stop us. But what happened was when private equity entered the space, everyone wanted to buy Claro. And to me, it didn’t feel like I did a lot of due diligence. I talked to a lot of firms. I didn’t see any differentiation in the market, Louis. To me from a technology perspective, everyone was doing the same thing. They’re using six to 12 different tools. We all know who they are. And now there’s a bunch of AI tools they’re layering on. And to me, it just didn’t feel like that was going to be any… There was no differentiation in the market. But admittedly, I had a couple of friends who I’d brought in at very low levels of AUMB that wanted to leave. And they said, “Look, I want to go to a firm that has more resources.” And so I had to just make a business decision and say, “Where do I want to take this?” And so it was only after some real adversity because you get emotionally attached to these people that you’ve developed friendships with and they still are friends, no doubt, but they can leave and they’re not captive. So we have to plan for that at Claro now, and I think we’ve got two ways that we’ve done that where it really ties the advisors to us, but in a way where they want to be here because we have something that’s really different. Louis Diamond: I like it. I’m sure we’ll get into that. But before we do, we’ll get into what you’re doing on the technology side, which is very cool and unique. How do you balance being an advisor and being a CEO? And what percentage of your time is advisor versus CEO and has that fluctuated or changed over time? Ryan Belanger: Drastically changed in the last year, two years or so. So the first 10, 12 years, I was really an advisor first and foremost. That’s inverse at this point, I’m strictly running the business. I have a great team here that deals with our clients, and I’ll still attend the client meetings and such, but I’m really laser-focused on running the business, trying to develop new partnerships with advisors, running an engineering team, sales and marketing. So the change for me has definitely occurred, and I’ll miss not keeping up with planning as much. I’m a CFP, but I just recognized that for me, I had to make a clear change and commit all my time to running the business, and so that’s the decision that I’ve made. Louis Diamond: It is a hard balance. I mean, there’s some people that try to do both, run a business, be an advisor, be a rainmaker, and something breaks. You’re not able to give all yourself to one thing. Then there’s others that would much prefer to be an advisor over a business owner. Others who say, “I’m over being an advisor. I want to be a business owner.” So I think the cool thing about doing what you’ve done is you get to choose, right? Some of it might be circumstances, but you really got to decide which elements of the business you personally want to invest your time in. And you really push your chips in the middle of the table. So let’s get into what you did in November of 2025. I read that you acquired a tech company of all things called NDVR. I’ve done this podcast for a while, speak to a ton of people. I can’t really think of anyone, any advisor or RIA that’s actually bought a tech company. So what made you puck the trend, buy a tech company and not just license all the FinTech that’s available today? Ryan Belanger: Yeah, that was the decision I had to make was do I really want to be different, or do I want to just say that I’m different? And so I was fortunate enough to get introduced to a gentleman named Michael Simon about 18 months ago, two years ago. And him and I immediately could see that we were both trying to solve the same problem, and we had perfectly mirrored image skills of one another so I had this deep wealth experience and he had a deep tech experience. And sometimes it’s just about timing in life, about catching someone at the right time. And I think we each caught each other at a really good time where we could see that coming together, we could create something really magical. And this AI wave was cresting. And I could see when I was talking to all the national PE firms or RIA firms about what people wanted to do, no one had quite figured out how AI was going to come into the technology mix, and it appears as though it’s just going to be another add-on tool to everything else. And for me, I wanted to try to build something that was integrated an all- in-one platform for an advisor so they didn’t have to use a ton of different tools. And I thought if you could do that, couldn’t you have AI that’s really much more rich and purposeful to help the clients? And so I felt like here’s an opportunity to elevate financial advice throughout the country, really give the clients all the value. And so what we’ve built allows advisors who are really good advisors to become super advisors because they’ve got this technology cape that no one else has that is allowing them to save a bunch of time and do all these really cool things for their clients. But it just felt like right time, right place. I’d been through a little bit of adversity and I felt like taking another swing just like I did 15 years ago going for it. I’ve really never been averse to risk, and so this felt like it was too good to pass up and so we went for it. Louis Diamond: Interesting. So that makes sense on the build or acquire versus rent dynamic, wanting to own the IP that makes you actually different. What does NDVR actually do? Ryan Belanger: Yeah, so everything’s all integrated. So we’ve kept the Claro Advisors name. We feel like clients really want to know that they’re still getting a person to deliver the advice. And so having the advisor’s name in our brand is important, but we have a Claro Intelligent Hub, and that’s where it’s an AI native operating system for the advisors. They spend their entire day in there, Louis. So they’re not toggling between 10 different Chrome tasks to perform all their business. And so what that allows them to do is not only it’s CRM, calendar, contacts, emails, messages, but we also have all the portfolio information. So trading history and we can do tax loss harvesting and factor-based investing. So we’ve got institutional grade portfolio management, and that’s really what Endeavor had created through their R&D was the hyper-personalized portfolios where you have a customer’s financial plan directly tied to their account. So there’s never any de-linking between the two. It’s really sophisticated technology that we can provide to our clients. So that’s all integrated as well. And so we’ve since continued to build the build upon that layer of integrated proprietary technology. Louis Diamond: It’s very interesting. And we have to imagine part of you maybe now or in the future is, okay, we’ve built this amazing technology mousetrap for our advisors, but do we become a FinTech? Is there any thought of eventually licensing what Endeavor is doing for your business and your clients to other RIAs? How do you think about that dynamic of just building something unique and different for Claro that advisors can latch onto versus making what you and your partners have developed into something that someone else can take and license themselves? Ryan Belanger: Yeah, it’s a fair question. We get it a good amount. While there might be a possibility that we license this to some other businesses, our main goal right now is to keep it captive to RIAs that want to partner with Claro. And so we feel like this gives them a true level of differentiation in the market, and so that’s the approach that we’re taking right now. Being a FinTech company, there’s a lot of different skills. The setup and tear down of getting someone to use the platform and I think all that time and resources we want on sales and marketing to try to attract new advisors and continue to develop just jaw-dropping technology for the existing advisors. Louis Diamond: Very cool. Let’s talk a little bit about your partnership model. So it does sound unique in that you have people that are 1099, but you don’t usually also hear partner. So how does it work? Ryan Belanger: Yeah, so we’re offering advisors to come and use Claro as a back office so you can have your own brand if you want or you can just be a Claro advisor. We have both here and you’ll be a 1099 advisor so you’ll still own the business that you’ve owned. So if you were at a wirehouse or something, you would actually now be creating some enterprise value for yourself. But if you’re an existing REA, you’d be coming to us because you’re tired of doing tech vendor due diligence all the time or you’re tired of the compliance, the AI regulations. That’s just coming. So that’s going to be a huge challenge for REAs, so we’re seeing a lot of interest from REAs saying, “Look, you’re not asking me to give up really anything except the stuff that I hate to do anyway, so this sounds great.” So they partner with us. In return, they get all access to our technology And we’ll provide all the back office support, office space, dedicated resources, planning, everything you could want to have to operate a business. We do have a growth program that’s really interesting. And then we’ve got this equity in Claro. As you’re a partner with Claro, you should get equity so we give stock options to our advisors who are here and every year thereafter. And naturally, that’s a way to stay connected with the advisor. So hopefully they never want to leave, and I do believe that once you experience our technology, you never want to go back to trying to do it the way you were doing it before. Louis Diamond: It’s like instead of building the most enclosed box that you keep people in with sticks and with locks and keys like a lot of firms do, it’s we’re going to keep advisors here, but not by force, but because they have the stock options, because you’re delivering value, because they have this amazing technology. To me, that’s the dynamic that so many firms across the industry get wrong is that they try to keep advisors where they are by restrictive covenants and by fear, and by retribution rather than if we just do good work for people, we add value, we make ourselves indispensable to the advisor. To me, it creates a healthier dynamic. I think firms would actually retain more even if it’s a gentler approach. And I love what you’re doing there. I think it’s the exact right way to think about we have advisors that are 1099, so yeah, they could leave us, but we’re doing things that make it that they don’t want to leave us. And that’s your charge as the owner to create the infrastructure and the structure where people could go out on their own, but there isn’t an advantage to do so. Ryan Belanger: Yeah, I think the culture is a big thing for us. And if you have people here that don’t want to be here, that’s a problem. And I think that’s what you see in a lot of the wirehouses. Frankly, they scare people and they don’t. It’s like, oh my God, if I leave. And for us, it’s like personally, life is too short. I want to work with people that want to work with me. I’ve got other things going on in my life and these things are just work things. And so I want to enjoy being in the office every day with people that want to be here. And if you think you’ve found a different place, you should go explore that. It’s really a soft approach. I know it’s not the most popular approach, but that’s just the style that I have. Louis Diamond: Yeah. I mean, it sounds like the trend in your career and in launching Claro was we’re going to do things that aren’t popular, but that work for us, like hiring younger advisors that may not have a book or have a small book, buying a tech company instead of licensing it, being 1099 when you’re recruiting instead of owning books of business. There’s a series of decisions you’ve made as the business owner that they’ve worked out, they’ve paid off, but they’re definitely against the grain. And I very much respect that. Ryan Belanger: I really have never been afraid to be a little different, and so I think typically you find other people that might be interested, but it’s a big pool out there. There’s 300,000 advisors so there’s something for everyone, which is awesome. Louis Diamond: Totally agree. Let’s get back to the AI platform that you’ve built, or that you’re building. Maybe give a real tangible example. If I’m a Claro advisor, how has my life changed now that I’m using this platform versus before? So the old model was I log in, like you said, to 10 different Chrome tabs. I’m meeting with clients, doing planning, et cetera. What is the day in the life? How does it look different from what an advisor’s actually doing today versus before this platform was rolled out? Ryan Belanger: Yeah. All right. I’ll just give you a couple examples. So a client will send you a request and say, “Louis, I need $25,000.” And so a typical advisor would either write a note down, go drop it off at the CSA’s desk, or maybe forward that email to the CSA and then that person would have to input it into their CRM, and they go perform the task. And then the advisor would want to know where things are in that process so that there’s a lot of back and forth. With our system, Claire, our intelligent chief of staff, AI chief of staff, you just forward that task to [email protected]. It recognizes the email address that the client is emailing from, it knows the account number. It talks to our portfolio engineer. It knows which account to raise the cash from because it knows the tax jurisdiction, and otherwise, and it performs the task. And the last push of a button is that CSA just moving money from the custodian. So all along the way, the advisor can check on the task and see where it is in the process. It’s beautifully integrated in the intelligent hub, but you could see how that would save a tremendous amount of time and it’s a better customer experience. The mistakes get limited. So it really allows the advisor to get things done at a much higher level. So we’re raising productivity quite a bit. First of all, she’ll establish your meetings, Claire will. So she’ll schedule them for you. She’ll prep them for you. So we have a button, say prep the meeting because we have all the notes, emails. If you’re texting portfolio data, because she has all that information in about 30 to 45 seconds, she’s going to present to the advisor a really nice meeting summary that, “Hey, here’s the things that we should talk about.” She’s going to surface things that the advisor’s forgotten about because she doesn’t forget things. And so she’s prepped the meeting for you, so you’ve saved a couple hours there. She joins the meeting, she takes all of your notes, stores them in the system. She’ll give you a follow-up email. She knows your writing style, so she’ll know that you like to call this client this, and you send these emails typically at this time. And so she’ll deliver a nice follow-up email instantly for the advisor. They click that button, that’s done. So there’s just a lot of things that where she’s efficiency-wise where on 20, 30 hours a week that we’re saving advisors just on the productivity tools alone, so that’s where we’re seeing advisors seeing a ton of value in this. Louis Diamond: It’s very cool. Ryan Belanger: And then there’s a whole portfolio management capabilities, sweeping idle cash and tax loss harvesting and rebalancing that gets done while advisors are having a cup of coffee. They don’t have to think about these things. It just gets done for them. Louis Diamond: It’s so cool because it’s like I think I can conceptualize or think of building in Claude any one of those functionalities for the most part, but the way that the flow of things works and the journey of it is unique. I think every advisor would be interested in that type of promise of saving that much time. So how do you think now in the future, how do you think about the human advisor interaction, and what the human and the advisor will do versus what can be offloaded to AI? Ryan Belanger: Yeah, certainly a lot of the non-client-facing activity can be unloaded and that’s where advisors spend, according to recent studies, almost 60% of their time non-client-facing. So we’re trying to take all that off of their plates for them. We strongly believe clients still want the message to come from a person that has a level of experience and understands them. But at the same point, I think there’s a growing curiosity about, geez, what could it do for me? And so shouldn’t my advisor know how to use it? And so I think you’re seeing a lot of advisors put their head in the sand and say, “I don’t know. I’m just going to hope people don’t really want to use this and adopt it.” They’re a little bit shortsighted there. Our bet is that clients are going to want an advisor that knows how to use tech, has really sophisticated tech, but it isn’t just another tool layered on top that now my data is in that tool. The reason our system is so beautiful and integrated is because it captures everything in a structured and secure way. So all of the compliance is in there. We whitewash all the PII that’s sensitive information, so we’re not layering another tool on, because it’s integrated, we have an AI governance committee that really takes it seriously. How are we using this information? And so we’ve got an approach and we’ve put guardrails around what it can do and what it can’t do. Might there be a generation, Louis, that wants an AI advisor? I don’t know, that could happen. A twin, a digital twin where you say, “Look, I want to talk to Louis.” It’s 10 o’clock at night. He might be in a different time zone than me. He’s got little kids, but I do have this question. And so we’re iterating ideas on how we can surface that for an advisor to be advisable 24/7 without actually having to be available 24/7. Louis Diamond: Seven. It’s amazing to think about. I mean, obviously you’re deeply in this. You have a front row seat into the power of AI, how it’s transforming your business, doing due diligence on acquiring this technology five years from now, 10 years from now, what does the industry look like as a result of AI? What’s your big bet? Ryan Belanger: A lot of the big firms are going to try to figure out how to layer in tech. It’s going to be very difficult to do that. It’s built on extremely old legacy technology. They’ll be slow. They’ll figure out how to do some things. What we’re already seeing from advisors is the wow factor. Wow, I didn’t know this was even possible, and so I think just given our size and where we are, we have an advantage that we can build things from the ground up very quickly. I mean, what used to take an engineer a couple of months or years can be done in a couple of days or weeks, so things have really sped up in terms of the development. It’s much easier to build it than buy it. And so I think you’ll see a lot of firms trying to do what we’ve done, really build proprietary technology. And I think there’ll be a few winners that are able to do that, but being tech forward and aligned with someone who’s thinking about it, I think is what a lot of advisors are going to want to be. That’s the type of firm people would want to partner with, I think. Louis Diamond: What about the dynamic of, like you said, the digital twin thing is equal parts cool as it is terrifying, how do you see, we’ll say the threat of AI impacting the profession of being a financial advisor? Do you look at it as the entire pie is going to grow because everyone’s more efficient? Or do you look at it as it’s going to take out a lot of the advisor capacity we have because it’s no longer necessary? Where do you fall on that spectrum? Ryan Belanger: So robo-advisors came and went, you remember those. I mean, not that they went, but they never took off the way that it was projected. They’re still great businesses, but the human advisor won that battle. Clients do want an advisor, particularly at the higher end, and so I think at the lower end of the market, you’re going to see some AI solutions where people are perfectly comfortable just talking to someone in AI, and they’ll figure out if there’s a hallucinization or not. But I think there’s definitely going to be a market for it, and so I think it just depends on where the clients are and what level of complexity they have. On the higher end, I do feel like the advisors will continue to have a huge advantage there. But we’re building tools to give optionality to advisors. There might be some advisors who say, “Look, I’ll charge half the fee that I used to charge so you can get my digital twin. And that’s a win-win situation for everybody.” Louis Diamond: Yep, that’s fair. So do you look at your competitive ecosystem now? Not for recruiting advisors, let’s say for winning clients. Do you look at Farther and Savvy and different AI or FinTechs as your competition or do you still look at it as the wirehouses and other traditional RIAs? Ryan Belanger: I mean, Farther and Savvy have done a great job of going after this market. I think we’re not as well known yet as they are. We’ve certainly built out what we think is tremendous technology second to none. There’s a huge market of the IBD space that is just these guys and gals are stuck on these old platforms and things are okay, but they’re not super compelled to switch until maybe they see something like this, and so we have a massive pipeline of advisors and I’ve been recruiting for a long time. I’ve never had a pipeline like this. So I know it feels different to me. People really are interested in this. It’s enough for them to want to see tech demos and come visit us and really understand, okay, this is a firm that is challenging what’s possible and that’s someone that maybe I want to be aligned with, and so I think that there’s a lot of places where we can get the talent. And so for us, it’s just trying to find the right people that we want to partner with for the long term. Louis Diamond: Very cool, I got two more questions for you. It’s pretty remarkable that to get from where you started to now, the recruiting you’ve done, buying a FinTech, integrating it, that you still don’t have private equity investor outside capital. So you think it’s on the roadmap, whether it’s a certain size or you’re looking for personal liquidity where the business will just need it because it’s expensive to operate a FinTech platform and to scale up and to keep growing the firm. Do you think there’s a world in which you take on external capital to fuel your growth? Ryan Belanger: Most certainly. I mean, things have developed for us very quickly here, and outside capital and venture particular is a space that we’re actively in discussions with firms that believe in our vision, understand the value that we can create, and there’s just no doubt that you have to have some wind at your back to get to the market, and so while we’re not a household name right now, I’m confident in two years we will be, and our plan is to grow to hundreds and thousands of advisors across the country. Louis Diamond: Wow, big vision, but I love it. Last question for you. If you were 30 years old again, which I think everyone would kill for that opportunity, leaving Morgan Stanley today instead of in 2012, what do you think you would do differently knowing what you know now? Ryan Belanger: At that point, interest rates were near zero, Louis. Valuations you remember were two to three times revenue. It felt expensive then. Obviously things have changed quite a bit. So I would’ve begged, borrowed, and stole all the money I could from friends and family and said, “I need to buy as many businesses as I could at two times, three times revenue and pay, I don’t know, 3% loan.” Just in hindsight, that’s what everyone should have done. That’s not the path that we chose, but I think there’s a huge opportunity in front of us to elevate financial advice across the country, make really good advisors even better by putting that super cape on them. And so we’re very excited about the future, what we’ve got in store, and what we’re going to deliver to the market. And it seems like just yesterday that I walked out of Morgan Stanley with very little assets and tried to start this RIA, but I’m very thankful for all the people that have been supporting me throughout this journey. Louis Diamond: Amazing. And that’s a great spot to end, but let me ask the inverse of that question. Let’s say you leave in 2026, so leave today, you’re 30 years old, but you have the benefit of hindsight. You know what you know now. What would you do differently around the transition or building the firm other than of course be amazing if you can buy businesses for a fraction of what they cost today? Ryan Belanger: I would want to make sure that I’ve got an integrated solution. I don’t want to be picking a bunch of different vendor tools. I know that’s going to become way too time-consuming for me. So I would really try to figure out how you can get something that’s integrated that can scale, but I wouldn’t change anything about the people. I think you got to be able to connect with people that are like-minded and you still take the risk. What I can’t believe, Louis, is that people that sit at the wirehouses take a home team discount and they’re so fearful of leaving Morgan Stanley or Merrill Lynch or UBS, but why are they taking that? The market says you should be paid double what you paid. And it’s not just like that’s 20, 30 years of data here that show that. And so I just would keep pushing people to bet on yourself. Your clients will come with you. Yes, that firm that you love will be the first ones to try to steal your clients. They’re going to call them, and that’s one way, loyalty. Another thing I don’t understand, but that’s the way the business is structured. I think there’s a huge opportunity to just educate advisors about what’s out there and I would take the risk. Louis Diamond: Love it. Ryan, this has been very fun. What you’ve accomplished, like I said earlier, gone against the grain at every turn. Leaving on the younger side without a huge business, buying and integrating a technology company, recruiting younger advisors without books of business. Every single thing you’ve done has been a different playbook. So I’m pumped to watch how we make Claro a household name and how this approach is going to pay off in spade. So I appreciate hearing this different perspective, and I know our listeners did as well, so much appreciated today. Ryan Belanger: Well, thanks for having me on. I know it’s a long time coming. Thanks for your patience. I wanted to make sure we had something really exciting to talk about when we finally did this, and hopefully I can come back in a couple years and catch up. And congratulations on everything you guys have built. You guys are just a premier name out there, and it’s been fun to watch your success as well. Louis Diamond: Thank you, Ryan, I appreciate it. Mindy Diamond: As a financial advisor, you hold yourself to the highest standards of integrity, honesty, and credibility. You are successful because you take your professional responsibilities seriously and are dedicated to your clients. But are you living your best business life? Are your goals aligned with your firms or could a better option exist? Should I Stay or Should I Go? is a book written with you in mind. It’s a self-guided journey that walks you through the key steps that we take with our advisor clients. This strategic thought process and roadmap to professional self-discovery is designed to help you ask the right questions and think critically and objectively whether you’re considering change or not. Learn how to get your copy at diamond-consultants.com/thebook. Why AI Matters Now: How a $1.5B RIA is Building the Firm of the Future A conversation with Louis Diamond and Ryan Belanger, Founder & CEO of Claro Advisors. Louis Diamond: Welcome to the latest episode of our podcast series for financial advisors. Today’s episode is Why AI Matters Now: How a $1.5B RIA is Building the Firm of the Future. It’s a conversation with Ryan Belanger, the Founder and CEO of Claro Advisors. I’m Louis Diamond, and this is the Diamond Podcast for Financial Advisors. Mindy Diamond: At Diamond Consultants, we help elite advisors identify the right environment for their businesses to thrive, whether that’s at a wirehouse, boutique, or independent firm. With nearly three decades of experience, we’ve guided thousands of advisors and represented more than a quarter of a trillion dollars in assets transitioned. And each year, one in four advisors managing a billion dollars or more who change firms are our clients. Our process is education driven, and based on building relationships, starting as your strategic partner well before you’re even thinking of a move. To schedule a confidential conversation, call us at (908) 879-1002. Wondering why advisors change firms and where they’re headed? Are transition deals going up or down? Those very questions and more inspired us to create our annual Advisor Transition Report. It’s the award-winning data-driven resource designed for advisors that connects the dots between the motivations around movement and the firm’s appetite for top talent. Arm yourself with the knowledge you need to make smart decisions. Download your copy at diamond-consultants.com/transitionreport. Louis Diamond: Artificial intelligence has quickly become one of the biggest topics in wealth management in the world. Almost every firm is experimenting with new tools, looking for ways to automate tasks, improve efficiency, or help advisors serve clients more effectively. But what if AI isn’t just another technology to plug into your business? What if it becomes the foundation for how your business is built? That’s exactly why I wanted to have Ryan Belanger on the show. Ryan is the Founder and CEO of Claro Advisors, a billion and a half dollar RIA that’s taken a very different path than most firms in the industry. Rather than simply adding AI to an existing tech stack, Claro acquired a FinTech company and is building its own AI native operating system designed specifically for advisors. What’s interesting is that this isn’t really a conversation about software, it’s about strategy. Ryan has consistently gone against the grain from leaving Morgan Stanley to launch an independent firm in 2012 before it became commonplace, to recruiting younger advisors when others chased established producers, to betting that proprietary technology will become one of the biggest competitive advantages an advisory firm can have. If AI is going to reshape wealth management, and I think it will, the firms that benefit most may not be the ones using the most tools. They may be the ones rethinking how the entire business operates. Ryan shares what that looks like in practice, what he’s seeing from advisors today, and why he believes the next generation of advisory firms will look fundamentally different from the firms we’ve known over the last two decades. There’s a lot to cover, so let’s get to it. Ryan, thanks for joining us today. Ryan Belanger: Yeah, nice to see you. Louis Diamond: You too, good to see you again. For those who aren’t familiar with you and your firm Claro, why don’t you walk us through your background and how you found your way into the industry to set the table. Ryan Belanger: Yeah, sounds good. So background was after college, I got a job at Morgan Stanley. I’d done an internship while in college and that gentleman, Morgan Dewey, said you should look at the Morgan Stanley. So I applied, got a job immediately, and just a couple weeks after graduating, I began as a financial advisor in a training program at Morgan Stanley and spent a good amount of time there and was able to develop skills necessary that really I had all along just growing up, a lot of entrepreneurial spirit I think is important in this business, how to relate to people, some competitiveness. I just happened to luck out and get into a profession that rewarded some of those skill sets. Louis Diamond: I’d say it was the right choice for you. So I think you started at Morgan Stanley in 2004. You were 21, 22 years old, just cutting your teeth, but the financial crisis happens a handful of years later. So what was it like being a relative newbie and seeing client accounts falling, the world crumbling every day? What did living through that crash teach you that’s shaped how you’ve built your business or serve clients now? Ryan Belanger: I did learn a tremendous amount at Morgan Stanley and I do still tell people if they’re looking to start at a big shop with big training programs and resources and really try to figure out what you like and then you can go off and get more specialized. But I do feel like it was a great place to get trained. They would post how many cold calls we were making every day. So on the board every morning you’d walk in and say, “Okay, where did you fall?” And I’m a competitive person, and I just want to make sure I was first every single day. So it was those type of things that really propelled me to keep interested in this business but also see the benefits. It’s really hard to get clients and that’s what people underestimate the most is to build the level of trust with someone that they’ll allow you to manage their retirement nest egg is it takes time. And I was 22, I looked really young, I had no experience, but I was fortunate to have two great mentors at Morgan Stanley, a gentleman named Todd Wetzel. He was brilliant at developing relationships, really caring for people. And then the gentleman that I had done an internship with went to Morgan Stanley as well, and he allowed me to work on some small accounts and really cut my teeth with some customers. And I was very fortunate to have done that, but you’d asked about the crash, and I think what I learned from that when people were literally weeping when their account values were down by 50%, 60% was that money is really emotional, and you have to understand how much it means to people, it’s not just the number on your screen. So having some empathy towards someone who’s really in a period of distress is now a critical skill that those of us have been around for this long understand. And there’s a whole generation, Louis, of advisors that have never experienced a real bear market, and I do fear for them at some point because when you go through that, it really changes the perspective that you have. But for me, it happened, I was four or five years into the business at that point, so I’m thankful that it happened just for my own personal development and I’ll never forget it. Louis Diamond: Yeah. Things have a way of happening for a reason and then the best advisors, best humans, they learn from them, and they’re better off for it. You’re very much right. I like that perspective about how the empathy around the emotions of money was something that you still carry and wear as a badge of honor today. So you left Morgan Stanley in 2012. I think you were 30 years old I read. One, that’s very young to consider leaving a firm like that nonetheless to go independent when in 2012, it wasn’t like everyone was going independent. There weren’t as many infrastructure providers or tech vendors or as much capital available as there is today. It definitely wasn’t a path that was as well-worn as it was. So two-part question, what pushed you to leave the firm presumably without a huge book of business? And second part, how’d you think about risk and reward at that age? Ryan Belanger: Yeah, what drove me was ultimately I felt like I was not seeing the value from the firm I was at, Morgan Stanley at the time. They were just taking an exorbitant amount of the revenue I felt. And I would see product managers strolling through and going to steak dinners, and I’m thinking, geez, I’m here every night on weekends. I’m busting my butt, and I should be creating more value to myself. And so that was one kind of thing. And I think there was a right level of naivete just to think that I could pull this off. I did believe that I had a small number of clients. I was hopeful that they would come because I had to hit a minimum for the custodian platform to start the RIA, which I was able to do. But I felt that they would come with me and that I had developed enough trust with them that I could be their advisor for a long time. And so for me, it felt like the technology wasn’t great. I was just told the mother-in-law is an expression. She says to my kids sometimes, “You get what you get and you don’t get upset.” Have you heard that expression? Louis Diamond: I have. My daughter reads a book where that line is repeated frequently. Ryan Belanger: Yeah, okay. So that’s how I felt then. I was like, “This is what you have and deal with it.” And to me, it just felt like there had to be a better way, but I didn’t have any capital backing, so I bootstrapped it. I Craigslisted an office from an estate planning attorney. I cold called Fidelity at the time they were our only custodian. I called to get some compliance help and I just thought that there’d be other people that would want to join. I named the firm, it’s a Latin phrase, it’s Claro Advisors, and it means to make clear in the mind. And I felt like not only was I trying to do that for clients, but I was trying to push advisors to challenge the norms here. There are other solutions out there. So I purposefully did put my name on it, I knew that there’d be other people that might feel the same way. I’ve always been a team sport guy. I like being around other people and collaborating. And I did have a good friend and credit to him. He said, “If you put this together, I’ll come with you.” And so just a couple weeks after I did, we talked and I said, “It’s up and running.” He came and Dana was our first, he’s still with us. And then a couple of months later, another guy I used to work with called and said, “Hey, I’m at this bank, and it looks like what you’ve done is interesting.” And I said, “We like it if you’d like to give it a try.” And so he came, his name’s Mike. He’s still with us. And so teams started to get put together. But I met someone in 2014, so I was two years in at that point and I was doing legitimately everything, not only as an advisor, but just all the stuff that you have to do to run the business. And it was becoming too much, especially the compliance. And I think nowadays starting an RIA, the threshold is so much higher. That’s why you see better than anyone else. You just see a lot more tuck-ins. But Jen Street was someone that I met and she really allowed me to catapult the business and scale it, so she took over all the operations and compliance and that really freed me up to be an advisor. And I really was just an advisor moonlighting as someone running. I would recruit a little bit or just be introductions, very soft. All that has changed based on what we’ve done in the last couple of years. Louis Diamond: Amazing. So thinking about risk spectrum, obviously now if you look back and say, “Hey, I had 30 million or whatever it was, I didn’t have anything to lose.” Right? But when you’re in it and you had income, you had recurring revenue, you had a paycheck versus the dynamic of, “I’m going to incur a bunch of expenses. I’m not positive who’s going to come with me. I’m not going to have a paycheck for a period of time.” Did the fact that your business was relatively small and you were just getting up and running, do you think it made it easier for you to reconcile that risk, or in some ways it was harder because your dispersion, if someone didn’t come, was that much higher? Ryan Belanger: I think it was easier for me, I knew I could always go to another firm. They would take me and whatever clients I had. I did it at a time when I had little personal risk, no kids, no mortgage. I didn’t have a wife at that point. So for me, it felt like the right time to take a risk. And I had been entrepreneurial in my life. I mean, I had a business in high school and my parents and grandparents were entrepreneurial. So that was in me, even if I didn’t really recognize it, was that I was okay with a good level of risk. And I do say this now to anyone that I’m hoping to partner with is that if you want to bet on yourself, I’ll go all in on you too. But you’ve got to be able to take that jump. I won’t let you fail, but you’ve got to be the one. I think that inertia is what a lot of advisors are like, “Geez, I don’t know, I got to give something up.” And that’s why the data’s important and you have all the data. The clients overwhelmingly go with the advisor. These days it’s just much harder to try to establish a new relationship with a trusted advisor than it is to just DocuSign some forms and move your account somewhere. So to me, it’s just trying to support people, and really push them to the edge and say, “No, this is possible. You should definitely explore this.” And I get it’s totally different, and you might be at a different life stage, but you know the numbers. I mean, tens of thousands of advisors are moving every year and not all of them have a small book like I did when I did it. Louis Diamond: Right, exactly. On one hand, making this entrepreneurial move as early in your career as you did, it was a benefit, right? Because you didn’t have as much to lose, like you said, the stage of life you’re in allowed you to absorb more risk. On the other end of the spectrum, if someone who has a massive business with immense value, they’re well situated financially, maybe their kids are through college, et cetera. And then most people are somewhere in the middle. So it’s interesting hearing that dynamic in real time. Let’s talk about Claro today. So you launched the business, like you said, you had to work hard to meet a minimum custodial threshold. So started from a very small base in 2012, but where is it today as far as assets, team size? Just give us some stats or perspective on what you’ve built in the last decade and a half or so. Ryan Belanger: Yeah, sure. So we enjoyed a tremendous amount of organic growth, Louis. We are not capital-backed. We don’t buy books of businesses, so I would recruit or partner with advisors that were coming from all the various places that you could think of that were finding us to be a very friendly place to work where you had a high level of autonomy, freedom, control, just great economics. We stayed out of people’s ways. We were just good people trying to help other good people, and it was just that friendly environment that allowed us to grow. And of course, we can’t discount market. I think markets had a tremendous growth for everybody in the business. And so the business as it stands right now, we’re about 1.5 billion in assets, 15 to 20 advisors. We got a 40-person team based primarily at a Boston headquarter, but we have advisors all over. And I think as we’ll get to, we’ve just gone through a really exciting new chapter for us where the next 15 years are going to look a lot different than the previous 15 years. Louis Diamond: Very cool. That’s amazing, and I’m in the recruiting businesses and doing recruiting yourself, it’s not easy to tell your story, get in front of the right people, the right like-minded people too, who are willing to take the leap to you, especially if you don’t have the capital backing and you can’t pay big deals or write big checks like others could, so that’s a massive testament to you and your vision. I know the average age of an advisor at Claro is around 40, yet the average advisor in the industry is 59, 60, 61, depending upon what data source you look at. What do you think you figured out about attracting, training, and really cultivating younger advisors that the rest of the industry either gets wrong or ignores? What’s been your hack in that regard? Ryan Belanger: I’ll just take a chance on people that others might not. And typically what that really means is someone with nothing, I’ll make them a deal and I’ll say, “Look, I believe in you. I think you’d be a great advisor. Let’s work on an arrangement where you feel like you can do this and I’ll support you.” And so our specialty was growing advisors from 20 million or 30 million into hundreds of million of client assets. And some of it was just being willing to look where others wouldn’t possibly want to spend their time. But when I was 22, someone took a chance on me, and so I owe it to the next generation to do that as well because there’s some great talent out there that really just isn’t getting the attention they deserve because they don’t have big books of business yet. But one of my core values is long-term thinking, and so that’s the way I frame my decisions is it doesn’t have to be a win today, but it can be a championship tomorrow or down three or five years from now. And so that’s how I’ve positioned it. I think that’s why we tend to get younger advisors. And then what happens when you get a lot of younger advisors, you have some older advisors say, “Hey, look, that’s an attractive bench of talent. I needed a succession plan. You guys seem to have a bunch of guys and gals that know how to do really great work and serve clients.” But I think that’s probably one of the things that I just was willing to take some chances on people at an earlier stage. Louis Diamond: Yep. I love it. I mean, once again, you said in the beginning, you developed an empathy for the emotional side of money and what people were going through that you carry through to this day. So not losing touch with the fact that you started. I mean, everyone starts in this business at some time, but I feel like once you’re successful or you’re through the first few years, you forget what it was like to be a newbie. So keeping that perspective and appreciation for the mentors you had, et cetera, is great. And honestly, from a business building standpoint, to me in this environment, unless you take on private equity capital, or you have capital from a BD or from a wirehouse behind you for recruiting, it’s really hard to win advisors with large books of business. So going in the blue part of the ocean instead of the red ocean, if anyone’s read that book, is very smart, looking under rocks that others don’t or really buying into or leaning into folks that you see something in that you know you can cultivate is a brilliant way. And it’s honestly more scalable, cheaper, you build a better business as well doing it the way that you do, but still, it’s hard. And my guess is the ROI is shorter. I’m sure you’ve made some hires that don’t pan out. So you have to have the tolerance and the demeanor to really invest in people. So long-winded way to say I love what you’re doing. How much of your recruitment of advisors and the retention of that talent as they become successful would you tie to how you compensate them, or equity if that’s available versus the culture of the firm and the mentorship that you and your team provide? Ryan Belanger: Yeah, I mean I’ll speak to what we’re offering now just because that’s more relevant, and so we are positioning ourselves now as the best home for advisors in the country and we really believe that’s the case, but our problem is we’re just a secret. We’ve just come to the market after our deal and all the technology that I know we’ll talk about. So we’re now marketing this message to advisors that want to partner with us. Economics will help them grow. We have a really interesting growth program. We’ll give them equity and Claro. I firmly believe that we should tie each other, just get in the same boat, so to speak. So our success is their success, but allowing them to operate in a 1099 model, which I know is not a popular strategy. I know everyone wants to buy books and own the assets and own the clients, but I feel there’s a tremendous amount of advisors that do not that probably should not be monetizing their businesses so quickly. And so I’m trying to foster a home for those like-minded advisors that want the autonomy to own their clients, maybe even still have a brand, but partner with a firm that’s got really credible technology, just unbelievable back office support and a firm of the future so that they can grow at 10X to what they could have on their own and then they could monetize. That’s what we’ve tried to put together here with our partnership model. Louis Diamond: Love it. Yeah, I mean it is definitely going against the grain a little bit, leaning into growing a 1099 model versus more of an acquisition model where everyone coming over as W-2s. So do you think about those trade-offs when it comes time to raising capital down the line or if you want to sell the business or even just an advisor wants to leave, that would stink if that happened. How do you think about those trade-offs? The ability to let advisors keep control and ownership. And honestly, in my view, probably win many people that you wouldn’t otherwise versus the stickiness, and the enterprise building abilities of owning the books of business. Ryan Belanger: Yeah, it’s a paradox because I understand why you want to own the client, but that’s a different business model. And frankly, I think it attracts different type of people. I had to really look myself in the mirror a couple years ago. We had enjoyed a tremendous amount of success, high growth and all organic, growing at 30% more per year on a CAGR basis. Nothing could stop us. But what happened was when private equity entered the space, everyone wanted to buy Claro. And to me, it didn’t feel like I did a lot of due diligence. I talked to a lot of firms. I didn’t see any differentiation in the market, Louis. To me from a technology perspective, everyone was doing the same thing. They’re using six to 12 different tools. We all know who they are. And now there’s a bunch of AI tools they’re layering on. And to me, it just didn’t feel like that was going to be any… There was no differentiation in the market. But admittedly, I had a couple of friends who I’d brought in at very low levels of AUMB that wanted to leave. And they said, “Look, I want to go to a firm that has more resources.” And so I had to just make a business decision and say, “Where do I want to take this?” And so it was only after some real adversity because you get emotionally attached to these people that you’ve developed friendships with and they still are friends, no doubt, but they can leave and they’re not captive. So we have to plan for that at Claro now, and I think we’ve got two ways that we’ve done that where it really ties the advisors to us, but in a way where they want to be here because we have something that’s really different. Louis Diamond: I like it. I’m sure we’ll get into that. But before we do, we’ll get into what you’re doing on the technology side, which is very cool and unique. How do you balance being an advisor and being a CEO? And what percentage of your time is advisor versus CEO and has that fluctuated or changed over time? Ryan Belanger: Drastically changed in the last year, two years or so. So the first 10, 12 years, I was really an advisor first and foremost. That’s inverse at this point, I’m strictly running the business. I have a great team here that deals with our clients, and I’ll still attend the client meetings and such, but I’m really laser-focused on running the business, trying to develop new partnerships with advisors, running an engineering team, sales and marketing. So the change for me has definitely occurred, and I’ll miss not keeping up with planning as much. I’m a CFP, but I just recognized that for me, I had to make a clear change and commit all my time to running the business, and so that’s the decision that I’ve made. Louis Diamond: It is a hard balance. I mean, there’s some people that try to do both, run a business, be an advisor, be a rainmaker, and something breaks. You’re not able to give all yourself to one thing. Then there’s others that would much prefer to be an advisor over a business owner. Others who say, “I’m over being an advisor. I want to be a business owner.” So I think the cool thing about doing what you’ve done is you get to choose, right? Some of it might be circumstances, but you really got to decide which elements of the business you personally want to invest your time in. And you really push your chips in the middle of the table. So let’s get into what you did in November of 2025. I read that you acquired a tech company of all things called NDVR. I’ve done this podcast for a while, speak to a ton of people. I can’t really think of anyone, any advisor or RIA that’s actually bought a tech company. So what made you puck the trend, buy a tech company and not just license all the FinTech that’s available today? Ryan Belanger: Yeah, that was the decision I had to make was do I really want to be different, or do I want to just say that I’m different? And so I was fortunate enough to get introduced to a gentleman named Michael Simon about 18 months ago, two years ago. And him and I immediately could see that we were both trying to solve the same problem, and we had perfectly mirrored image skills of one another so I had this deep wealth experience and he had a deep tech experience. And sometimes it’s just about timing in life, about catching someone at the right time. And I think we each caught each other at a really good time where we could see that coming together, we could create something really magical. And this AI wave was cresting. And I could see when I was talking to all the national PE firms or RIA firms about what people wanted to do, no one had quite figured out how AI was going to come into the technology mix, and it appears as though it’s just going to be another add-on tool to everything else. And for me, I wanted to try to build something that was integrated an all- in-one platform for an advisor so they didn’t have to use a ton of different tools. And I thought if you could do that, couldn’t you have AI that’s really much more rich and purposeful to help the clients? And so I felt like here’s an opportunity to elevate financial advice throughout the country, really give the clients all the value. And so what we’ve built allows advisors who are really good advisors to become super advisors because they’ve got this technology cape that no one else has that is allowing them to save a bunch of time and do all these really cool things for their clients. But it just felt like right time, right place. I’d been through a little bit of adversity and I felt like taking another swing just like I did 15 years ago going for it. I’ve really never been averse to risk, and so this felt like it was too good to pass up and so we went for it. Louis Diamond: Interesting. So that makes sense on the build or acquire versus rent dynamic, wanting to own the IP that makes you actually different. What does NDVR actually do? Ryan Belanger: Yeah, so everything’s all integrated. So we’ve kept the Claro Advisors name. We feel like clients really want to know that they’re still getting a person to deliver the advice. And so having the advisor’s name in our brand is important, but we have a Claro Intelligent Hub, and that’s where it’s an AI native operating system for the advisors. They spend their entire day in there, Louis. So they’re not toggling between 10 different Chrome tasks to perform all their business. And so what that allows them to do is not only it’s CRM, calendar, contacts, emails, messages, but we also have all the portfolio information. So trading history and we can do tax loss harvesting and factor-based investing. So we’ve got institutional grade portfolio management, and that’s really what Endeavor had created through their R&D was the hyper-personalized portfolios where you have a customer’s financial plan directly tied to their account. So there’s never any de-linking between the two. It’s really sophisticated technology that we can provide to our clients. So that’s all integrated as well. And so we’ve since continued to build the build upon that layer of integrated proprietary technology. Louis Diamond: It’s very interesting. And we have to imagine part of you maybe now or in the future is, okay, we’ve built this amazing technology mousetrap for our advisors, but do we become a FinTech? Is there any thought of eventually licensing what Endeavor is doing for your business and your clients to other RIAs? How do you think about that dynamic of just building something unique and different for Claro that advisors can latch onto versus making what you and your partners have developed into something that someone else can take and license themselves? Ryan Belanger: Yeah, it’s a fair question. We get it a good amount. While there might be a possibility that we license this to some other businesses, our main goal right now is to keep it captive to RIAs that want to partner with Claro. And so we feel like this gives them a true level of differentiation in the market, and so that’s the approach that we’re taking right now. Being a FinTech company, there’s a lot of different skills. The setup and tear down of getting someone to use the platform and I think all that time and resources we want on sales and marketing to try to attract new advisors and continue to develop just jaw-dropping technology for the existing advisors. Louis Diamond: Very cool. Let’s talk a little bit about your partnership model. So it does sound unique in that you have people that are 1099, but you don’t usually also hear partner. So how does it work? Ryan Belanger: Yeah, so we’re offering advisors to come and use Claro as a back office so you can have your own brand if you want or you can just be a Claro advisor. We have both here and you’ll be a 1099 advisor so you’ll still own the business that you’ve owned. So if you were at a wirehouse or something, you would actually now be creating some enterprise value for yourself. But if you’re an existing REA, you’d be coming to us because you’re tired of doing tech vendor due diligence all the time or you’re tired of the compliance, the AI regulations. That’s just coming. So that’s going to be a huge challenge for REAs, so we’re seeing a lot of interest from REAs saying, “Look, you’re not asking me to give up really anything except the stuff that I hate to do anyway, so this sounds great.” So they partner with us. In return, they get all access to our technology And we’ll provide all the back office support, office space, dedicated resources, planning, everything you could want to have to operate a business. We do have a growth program that’s really interesting. And then we’ve got this equity in Claro. As you’re a partner with Claro, you should get equity so we give stock options to our advisors who are here and every year thereafter. And naturally, that’s a way to stay connected with the advisor. So hopefully they never want to leave, and I do believe that once you experience our technology, you never want to go back to trying to do it the way you were doing it before. Louis Diamond: It’s like instead of building the most enclosed box that you keep people in with sticks and with locks and keys like a lot of firms do, it’s we’re going to keep advisors here, but not by force, but because they have the stock options, because you’re delivering value, because they have this amazing technology. To me, that’s the dynamic that so many firms across the industry get wrong is that they try to keep advisors where they are by restrictive covenants and by fear, and by retribution rather than if we just do good work for people, we add value, we make ourselves indispensable to the advisor. To me, it creates a healthier dynamic. I think firms would actually retain more even if it’s a gentler approach. And I love what you’re doing there. I think it’s the exact right way to think about we have advisors that are 1099, so yeah, they could leave us, but we’re doing things that make it that they don’t want to leave us. And that’s your charge as the owner to create the infrastructure and the structure where people could go out on their own, but there isn’t an advantage to do so. Ryan Belanger: Yeah, I think the culture is a big thing for us. And if you have people here that don’t want to be here, that’s a problem. And I think that’s what you see in a lot of the wirehouses. Frankly, they scare people and they don’t. It’s like, oh my God, if I leave. And for us, it’s like personally, life is too short. I want to work with people that want to work with me. I’ve got other things going on in my life and these things are just work things. And so I want to enjoy being in the office every day with people that want to be here. And if you think you’ve found a different place, you should go explore that. It’s really a soft approach. I know it’s not the most popular approach, but that’s just the style that I have. Louis Diamond: Yeah. I mean, it sounds like the trend in your career and in launching Claro was we’re going to do things that aren’t popular, but that work for us, like hiring younger advisors that may not have a book or have a small book, buying a tech company instead of licensing it, being 1099 when you’re recruiting instead of owning books of business. There’s a series of decisions you’ve made as the business owner that they’ve worked out, they’ve paid off, but they’re definitely against the grain. And I very much respect that. Ryan Belanger: I really have never been afraid to be a little different, and so I think typically you find other people that might be interested, but it’s a big pool out there. There’s 300,000 advisors so there’s something for everyone, which is awesome. Louis Diamond: Totally agree. Let’s get back to the AI platform that you’ve built, or that you’re building. Maybe give a real tangible example. If I’m a Claro advisor, how has my life changed now that I’m using this platform versus before? So the old model was I log in, like you said, to 10 different Chrome tabs. I’m meeting with clients, doing planning, et cetera. What is the day in the life? How does it look different from what an advisor’s actually doing today versus before this platform was rolled out? Ryan Belanger: Yeah. All right. I’ll just give you a couple examples. So a client will send you a request and say, “Louis, I need $25,000.” And so a typical advisor would either write a note down, go drop it off at the CSA’s desk, or maybe forward that email to the CSA and then that person would have to input it into their CRM, and they go perform the task. And then the advisor would want to know where things are in that process so that there’s a lot of back and forth. With our system, Claire, our intelligent chief of staff, AI chief of staff, you just forward that task to [email protected]. It recognizes the email address that the client is emailing from, it knows the account number. It talks to our portfolio engineer. It knows which account to raise the cash from because it knows the tax jurisdiction, and otherwise, and it performs the task. And the last push of a button is that CSA just moving money from the custodian. So all along the way, the advisor can check on the task and see where it is in the process. It’s beautifully integrated in the intelligent hub, but you could see how that would save a tremendous amount of time and it’s a better customer experience. The mistakes get limited. So it really allows the advisor to get things done at a much higher level. So we’re raising productivity quite a bit. First of all, she’ll establish your meetings, Claire will. So she’ll schedule them for you. She’ll prep them for you. So we have a button, say prep the meeting because we have all the notes, emails. If you’re texting portfolio data, because she has all that information in about 30 to 45 seconds, she’s going to present to the advisor a really nice meeting summary that, “Hey, here’s the things that we should talk about.” She’s going to surface things that the advisor’s forgotten about because she doesn’t forget things. And so she’s prepped the meeting for you, so you’ve saved a couple hours there. She joins the meeting, she takes all of your notes, stores them in the system. She’ll give you a follow-up email. She knows your writing style, so she’ll know that you like to call this client this, and you send these emails typically at this time. And so she’ll deliver a nice follow-up email instantly for the advisor. They click that button, that’s done. So there’s just a lot of things that where she’s efficiency-wise where on 20, 30 hours a week that we’re saving advisors just on the productivity tools alone, so that’s where we’re seeing advisors seeing a ton of value in this. Louis Diamond: It’s very cool. Ryan Belanger: And then there’s a whole portfolio management capabilities, sweeping idle cash and tax loss harvesting and rebalancing that gets done while advisors are having a cup of coffee. They don’t have to think about these things. It just gets done for them. Louis Diamond: It’s so cool because it’s like I think I can conceptualize or think of building in Claude any one of those functionalities for the most part, but the way that the flow of things works and the journey of it is unique. I think every advisor would be interested in that type of promise of saving that much time. So how do you think now in the future, how do you think about the human advisor interaction, and what the human and the advisor will do versus what can be offloaded to AI? Ryan Belanger: Yeah, certainly a lot of the non-client-facing activity can be unloaded and that’s where advisors spend, according to recent studies, almost 60% of their time non-client-facing. So we’re trying to take all that off of their plates for them. We strongly believe clients still want the message to come from a person that has a level of experience and understands them. But at the same point, I think there’s a growing curiosity about, geez, what could it do for me? And so shouldn’t my advisor know how to use it? And so I think you’re seeing a lot of advisors put their head in the sand and say, “I don’t know. I’m just going to hope people don’t really want to use this and adopt it.” They’re a little bit shortsighted there. Our bet is that clients are going to want an advisor that knows how to use tech, has really sophisticated tech, but it isn’t just another tool layered on top that now my data is in that tool. The reason our system is so beautiful and integrated is because it captures everything in a structured and secure way. So all of the compliance is in there. We whitewash all the PII that’s sensitive information, so we’re not layering another tool on, because it’s integrated, we have an AI governance committee that really takes it seriously. How are we using this information? And so we’ve got an approach and we’ve put guardrails around what it can do and what it can’t do. Might there be a generation, Louis, that wants an AI advisor? I don’t know, that could happen. A twin, a digital twin where you say, “Look, I want to talk to Louis.” It’s 10 o’clock at night. He might be in a different time zone than me. He’s got little kids, but I do have this question. And so we’re iterating ideas on how we can surface that for an advisor to be advisable 24/7 without actually having to be available 24/7. Louis Diamond: Seven. It’s amazing to think about. I mean, obviously you’re deeply in this. You have a front row seat into the power of AI, how it’s transforming your business, doing due diligence on acquiring this technology five years from now, 10 years from now, what does the industry look like as a result of AI? What’s your big bet? Ryan Belanger: A lot of the big firms are going to try to figure out how to layer in tech. It’s going to be very difficult to do that. It’s built on extremely old legacy technology. They’ll be slow. They’ll figure out how to do some things. What we’re already seeing from advisors is the wow factor. Wow, I didn’t know this was even possible, and so I think just given our size and where we are, we have an advantage that we can build things from the ground up very quickly. I mean, what used to take an engineer a couple of months or years can be done in a couple of days or weeks, so things have really sped up in terms of the development. It’s much easier to build it than buy it. And so I think you’ll see a lot of firms trying to do what we’ve done, really build proprietary technology. And I think there’ll be a few winners that are able to do that, but being tech forward and aligned with someone who’s thinking about it, I think is what a lot of advisors are going to want to be. That’s the type of firm people would want to partner with, I think. Louis Diamond: What about the dynamic of, like you said, the digital twin thing is equal parts cool as it is terrifying, how do you see, we’ll say the threat of AI impacting the profession of being a financial advisor? Do you look at it as the entire pie is going to grow because everyone’s more efficient? Or do you look at it as it’s going to take out a lot of the advisor capacity we have because it’s no longer necessary? Where do you fall on that spectrum? Ryan Belanger: So robo-advisors came and went, you remember those. I mean, not that they went, but they never took off the way that it was projected. They’re still great businesses, but the human advisor won that battle. Clients do want an advisor, particularly at the higher end, and so I think at the lower end of the market, you’re going to see some AI solutions where people are perfectly comfortable just talking to someone in AI, and they’ll figure out if there’s a hallucinization or not. But I think there’s definitely going to be a market for it, and so I think it just depends on where the clients are and what level of complexity they have. On the higher end, I do feel like the advisors will continue to have a huge advantage there. But we’re building tools to give optionality to advisors. There might be some advisors who say, “Look, I’ll charge half the fee that I used to charge so you can get my digital twin. And that’s a win-win situation for everybody.” Louis Diamond: Yep, that’s fair. So do you look at your competitive ecosystem now? Not for recruiting advisors, let’s say for winning clients. Do you look at Farther and Savvy and different AI or FinTechs as your competition or do you still look at it as the wirehouses and other traditional RIAs? Ryan Belanger: I mean, Farther and Savvy have done a great job of going after this market. I think we’re not as well known yet as they are. We’ve certainly built out what we think is tremendous technology second to none. There’s a huge market of the IBD space that is just these guys and gals are stuck on these old platforms and things are okay, but they’re not super compelled to switch until maybe they see something like this, and so we have a massive pipeline of advisors and I’ve been recruiting for a long time. I’ve never had a pipeline like this. So I know it feels different to me. People really are interested in this. It’s enough for them to want to see tech demos and come visit us and really understand, okay, this is a firm that is challenging what’s possible and that’s someone that maybe I want to be aligned with, and so I think that there’s a lot of places where we can get the talent. And so for us, it’s just trying to find the right people that we want to partner with for the long term. Louis Diamond: Very cool, I got two more questions for you. It’s pretty remarkable that to get from where you started to now, the recruiting you’ve done, buying a FinTech, integrating it, that you still don’t have private equity investor outside capital. So you think it’s on the roadmap, whether it’s a certain size or you’re looking for personal liquidity where the business will just need it because it’s expensive to operate a FinTech platform and to scale up and to keep growing the firm. Do you think there’s a world in which you take on external capital to fuel your growth? Ryan Belanger: Most certainly. I mean, things have developed for us very quickly here, and outside capital and venture particular is a space that we’re actively in discussions with firms that believe in our vision, understand the value that we can create, and there’s just no doubt that you have to have some wind at your back to get to the market, and so while we’re not a household name right now, I’m confident in two years we will be, and our plan is to grow to hundreds and thousands of advisors across the country. Louis Diamond: Wow, big vision, but I love it. Last question for you. If you were 30 years old again, which I think everyone would kill for that opportunity, leaving Morgan Stanley today instead of in 2012, what do you think you would do differently knowing what you know now? Ryan Belanger: At that point, interest rates were near zero, Louis. Valuations you remember were two to three times revenue. It felt expensive then. Obviously things have changed quite a bit. So I would’ve begged, borrowed, and stole all the money I could from friends and family and said, “I need to buy as many businesses as I could at two times, three times revenue and pay, I don’t know, 3% loan.” Just in hindsight, that’s what everyone should have done. That’s not the path that we chose, but I think there’s a huge opportunity in front of us to elevate financial advice across the country, make really good advisors even better by putting that super cape on them. And so we’re very excited about the future, what we’ve got in store, and what we’re going to deliver to the market. And it seems like just yesterday that I walked out of Morgan Stanley with very little assets and tried to start this RIA, but I’m very thankful for all the people that have been supporting me throughout this journey. Louis Diamond: Amazing. And that’s a great spot to end, but let me ask the inverse of that question. Let’s say you leave in 2026, so leave today, you’re 30 years old, but you have the benefit of hindsight. You know what you know now. What would you do differently around the transition or building the firm other than of course be amazing if you can buy businesses for a fraction of what they cost today? Ryan Belanger: I would want to make sure that I’ve got an integrated solution. I don’t want to be picking a bunch of different vendor tools. I know that’s going to become way too time-consuming for me. So I would really try to figure out how you can get something that’s integrated that can scale, but I wouldn’t change anything about the people. I think you got to be able to connect with people that are like-minded and you still take the risk. What I can’t believe, Louis, is that people that sit at the wirehouses take a home team discount and they’re so fearful of leaving Morgan Stanley or Merrill Lynch or UBS, but why are they taking that? The market says you should be paid double what you paid. And it’s not just like that’s 20, 30 years of data here that show that. And so I just would keep pushing people to bet on yourself. Your clients will come with you. Yes, that firm that you love will be the first ones to try to steal your clients. They’re going to call them, and that’s one way, loyalty. Another thing I don’t understand, but that’s the way the business is structured. I think there’s a huge opportunity to just educate advisors about what’s out there and I would take the risk. Louis Diamond: Love it. Ryan, this has been very fun. What you’ve accomplished, like I said earlier, gone against the grain at every turn. Leaving on the younger side without a huge business, buying and integrating a technology company, recruiting younger advisors without books of business. Every single thing you’ve done has been a different playbook. So I’m pumped to watch how we make Claro a household name and how this approach is going to pay off in spade. So I appreciate hearing this different perspective, and I know our listeners did as well, so much appreciated today. Ryan Belanger: Well, thanks for having me on. I know it’s a long time coming. Thanks for your patience. I wanted to make sure we had something really exciting to talk about when we finally did this, and hopefully I can come back in a couple years and catch up. And congratulations on everything you guys have built. You guys are just a premier name out there, and it’s been fun to watch your success as well. Louis Diamond: Thank you, Ryan, I appreciate it. Mindy Diamond: As a financial advisor, you hold yourself to the highest standards of integrity, honesty, and credibility. You are successful because you take your professional responsibilities seriously and are dedicated to your clients. But are you living your best business life? Are your goals aligned with your firms or could a better option exist? Should I Stay or Should I Go? is a book written with you in mind. It’s a self-guided journey that walks you through the key steps that we take with our advisor clients. This strategic thought process and roadmap to professional self-discovery is designed to help you ask the right questions and think critically and objectively whether you’re considering change or not. Learn how to get your copy at diamond-consultants.com/thebook.

    48min
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  5. Number 5: From “Overservicing” Clients to Building a $1B RIA: A Merrill Breakaway Story

    Michael Smith shares how a client-first philosophy, niche specialization, and independence helped Emerald Advisors grow from $385mm to more than $1B in assets.

    36min
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