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   Number 1: Why So Many Successful Advisors Feel Stuck – Best of Replay

   With Louis Diamond and Mindy Diamond Louis and Mindy Diamond explore why successful financial advisors can feel stuck despite thriving businesses—and how agency, enterprise value, risk, legacy, and a clear true north can help them evaluate what comes next. In Summary Successful advisors by definition have thriving businesses, loyal clients, and enviable careers—yet still wonder whether comfort has replaced energy. Louis and Mindy Diamond examine why success itself can make change harder, how the desire for agency competes with the disruption of a transition, and why record practice valuations, longer careers, and expanded optionality are prompting more advisors to question the status quo. They also offer practical questions to help advisors clarify their true north, risk tolerance, time horizon, and legacy before deciding whether to stay or explore something new. The Storyline By every external measure, top advisors today are doing exceptionally well. They have strong production, loyal clients, growing teams, and successful businesses. Yet some privately wonder why the work no longer feels as satisfying as they expected. Louis and Mindy explain that the tension is not a sign of failure. For many advisors, it appears after they have succeeded and can see another 15 or 20 years of more of the same ahead. The question becomes whether their business still gives them the agency, control, and professional energy they want. That distinction between comfort and energy can be difficult to recognize. An advisor may enjoy an excellent quality of life and a business that runs smoothly while still feeling comfortably uncomfortable. The catalyst is often not a breaking point, but a renewed desire to build, grow, create enterprise value, or leave a different legacy. Success also creates powerful reasons to stay. A healthy pipeline, loyal clients, unvested compensation, retire-in-place programs, and the short-term disruption of a transition can make change difficult to justify. At the same time, record valuations, longer careers, multigenerational teams, and a broader range of firm and affiliation models have made the opportunity cost of staying more visible. The discussion does not assume that every advisor should move. Instead, Louis and Mindy focus on how to make an intentional decision: define your true north, identify what you are trying to solve for, assess your tolerance for risk and disruption, and learn what is possible before committing to a change. Topics Covered Why successful advisors can feel stuck Agency, control, and professional satisfaction Comfort versus energy in a thriving business Defining an advisor’s true north When more of the same becomes a constraint Fear of change versus fear of standing still Recruiting deals, practice valuations, and enterprise value Longer careers and multigenerational teams Risk tolerance, disruption, and client portability Creating clarity without committing to a move > Download a transcript of this episode… Listen and Learn Highlights for Advisors What feels different for successful advisors today? (02:09)Mindy explains why top advisors are increasingly willing to examine the status quo as their choices expand and the value of their businesses rises. Why can objectively successful advisors still feel unsettled? (04:51)Mindy identifies agency as a central need for top advisors and explains why a loss of control can create deep frustration even when the business is performing well. What does a fire in the belly reveal? (08:22)Mindy shares the example of a highly successful wirehouse team whose interest in change comes from a desire for renewed energy and legacy, not from a final breaking point. How is being comfortable different from being energized? (11:53)Louis and Mindy explore the difference between a business that provides an excellent life and one that still feels professionally satisfying, including the feeling of being comfortably uncomfortable. When does more of the same become a constraint? (17:49)They discuss how repeating a successful formula can continue to produce results while limiting growth, ownership, or the entrepreneurial spark an advisor wants to pursue. How do advisors reconcile fear of change with fear of standing still? (27:16)Mindy and Louis explain why those competing concerns can persist for years and how a firm decision, a compelling opportunity, or a moment of personal clarity can shift the balance. Why is this question surfacing more often now? (29:48)Record valuations, elevated recruiting deals, expanded optionality, peer movement, longer careers, and next-generation needs are changing how advisors assess the cost of staying. Which questions should advisors ask before considering a move? (36:35)Mindy and Louis outline questions about true north, frustration, risk appetite, disruption, legacy, time horizon, and the regret of never testing what might be possible. Key Takeaways Success and professional fulfillment are not the same thing. An advisor can have strong growth, loyal clients, and an excellent quality of life while still feeling that comfort has replaced energy. Agency is a core need for many top advisors. Firm policies, compensation changes, technology limits, or other decisions can feel especially disruptive when they reduce control over the business or client experience. Good enough can become a constraint. A proven business model may continue to work financially while limiting growth, ownership, enterprise value, or the professional satisfaction an advisor wants next. Success creates powerful inertia. A strong pipeline, unvested compensation, retire-in-place programs, client relationships, and the disruption of a transition can all make the status quo difficult to challenge. The opportunity cost of staying has become more visible. Record valuations, elevated recruiting deals, broader affiliation choices, longer careers, and peer movement give advisors more reasons to understand what else may be possible. True north should come before due diligence. Advisors need to define what they want to solve for and how they weigh control, risk, enterprise value, legacy, and time horizon before evaluating firms or models. Education does not require a move. Self-awareness and a clear view of the available options can help an advisor make an intentional decision, including the decision to stay. https://youtu.be/nrmtRBlJJVs Quotable Moments “I’m comfortably uncomfortable.” — Mindy Diamond “You’ve always got to be really clear on what your true north is.” — Mindy Diamond “Which regret is bigger to you, trying something and failing or never testing what’s possible?” — Louis Diamond “It’s okay to want more. There’s nothing wrong with you for wanting more. At the same time, there’s nothing wrong about being comfortable.” — Louis Diamond FAQs Why do successful financial advisors feel stuck even when their businesses are thriving? External success does not always create professional energy or fulfillment. Some advisors have excellent businesses but feel they have lost agency, stopped growing in ways that matter to them, or settled into a version of success that no longer fits their goals. What does agency mean for a financial advisor? Agency is control over an advisor’s professional life and business. It can include how the advisor serves clients, uses technology, builds a team, makes decisions, and plans for growth or succession. Is being comfortable in a business the same as being energized by it? Not always. Comfort can reflect a strong business, good income, loyal clients, and a healthy quality of life. Energy comes from feeling engaged by what the advisor is building and where the business is headed. Why can success make it harder for an advisor to change firms? Successful advisors often have more to disrupt, including client relationships, team dynamics, a growing pipeline, unvested compensation, and valuable retire-in-place benefits. The immediate costs and risks of a transition can outweigh a benefit that may be larger over the long term. Why are more successful advisors questioning the status quo now? Practice valuations and recruiting deals are high, the range of affiliation models has expanded, and advisors see respected peers make changes. Longer careers and the needs of next-generation partners also give many teams more time and reason to reconsider their future. What is an advisor’s true north? True north is the set of priorities that should guide an advisor’s decision. It defines what the advisor wants to build, what needs to change, and how factors such as control, ownership, legacy, risk, and time horizon should be weighted. What should an advisor ask before considering a move? Key questions include what is causing frustration, how significant it is, what outcome the advisor wants, how much disruption and client risk the team can tolerate, and whether staying in the same place for another 10 or 15 years would still feel satisfying. How can an advisor create clarity without committing to change? Start with self-awareness, then learn what options exist through informed conversations and competitive analysis. Understanding the landscape can strengthen a decision to stay or reveal a better fit without obligating the advisor to move. External success does not always create professional energy or fulfillment. Some advisors have excellent businesses but feel they have lost agency, stopped growing in ways that matter to them, or settled into a version of success that no longer fits their goals. Agency is control over an advisor’s professional life and business. It can include how the advisor serves clients, uses technology, builds a team, makes decisions, and plans for growth or succession. Not always. Comfort can reflect a strong business, good income, loyal clients, and a healthy quality of life. Energy comes from feeling engaged by what the advisor is building and where the business is headed. Successful advisors often have more to disrupt, including client relationships, team dynamics, a growing pipeline, unvested compensation, and valuable retire-in-place benefits. The immediate costs and risks of a transition can outweigh a benefit that may be larger over the long term. Practice valuations and recruiting deals are high, the range of affiliation models has expanded, and advisors see respected peers make changes. Longer careers and the needs of next-generation partners also give many teams more time and reason to reconsider their future. True north is the set of priorities that should guide an advisor’s decision. It defines what the advisor wants to build, what needs to change, and how factors such as control, ownership, legacy, risk, and time horizon should be weighted. Key questions include what is causing frustration, how significant it is, what outcome the advisor wants, how much disruption and client risk the team can tolerate, and whether staying in the same place for another 10 or 15 years would still feel satisfying. Start with self-awareness, then learn what options exist through informed conversations and competitive analysis. Understanding the landscape can strengthen a decision to stay or reveal a better fit without obligating the advisor to move. Related Resources How to Free Yourself from the “If Only” MindsetHere are the 5 most common self-limiting statements that advisors share—and ways to reframe your thinking. Limitless Growth: Building the Business You Want and the Life to MatchStephanie Bogan, founder of Limitless Advisor, offers a glimpse into the advice and perspective she shares with advisors and business leaders in the wealth management world, focusing on mindset and methods, and their relationship to achieving one’s best business life. NOTE: The views and opinions expressed by the guests on this podcast are their own and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of Diamond Consultants. Neither Diamond Consultants nor the guests on this podcast are compensated in any way for their participation. View the transcript of this episode… Best of Replay: Why So Many Successful Advisors Feel Stuck An Industry Update with Louis Diamond and Mindy Diamond. Louis Diamond: Welcome to a replay of one of the most popular episodes from our podcast series for financial advisors. Why So Many Successful Advisors Feel Stuck. It’s a Special Industry Update with Mindy Diamond. I’m Louis Diamond and this is the Diamond Podcast for Financial Advisors. Mindy Diamond: At Diamond Consultants, we help elite advisors identify the right environment for their businesses to thrive, whether that’s at a wirehouse, boutique or independent firm. With nearly three decades of experience, we’ve guided thousands of advisors and represented more than a quarter of a trillion dollars in assets transitioned. And each year, one in four advisors managing a billion dollars or more who change firms are our clients. Our process is education-driven, and based on building relationships, starting as your strategic partner well before you’re even thinking of a move. To schedule a confidential conversation, call us at (908) 879-1002. Wondering why advisors change firms and where they’re headed? Are transition deals going up or down? Those very questions and more inspired us to create our annual advisor transition report. It’s the award-winning, data-driven resource designed for advisors that connects the dots between the motivations around movement and the firm’s appetite for top talent. Arm yourself with the knowledge you need to make smart decisions. Download your copy at diamond-consultants.com/transitionreport. Louis Diamond: We spend a lot of time talking with advisors who, by every external measure, are doing exceptionally well. They’ve built real businesses with strong production, loyal clients and teams that continue to grow, and yet behind closed doors, many of these same advisors are quietly asking a different set of questions. Not how do I fix what’s broken, but why doesn’t this feel as good as I expected? That tension is showing up more frequently than it did five or 10 years ago, and it’s not because advisors are failing. In many cases, it’s because they’ve won and now find themselves staring at another 15 to 20 years of more the same, unsure whether comfort has slowly replaced energy. This industry update is about that very moment. I asked Mindy to join me to unpack what we’re hearing from successful advisors across the industry, why success itself can become a constraint, how fear of change competes with fear of standing still, and why record valuations, longer careers and the maturity of the independent space are changing the psychology of decision-making. We also talk about the right questions to ask before considering a move, questions about control, enterprise value, legacy and time horizon, and how advisors can create clarity without forcing a decision. There’s lot to explore here, so let’s get into it. Mindy, thanks for joining us. Mindy Diamond: Oh, I’m so happy to be here. Always. Louis Diamond: This is a fun topic. So today we’re just going to dive right in. I’m curious, from your vantage point and talking and working with many of the best advisors in the industry at a high level, what are you hearing from successful advisors today that feels different from five or 10 years ago? Mindy Diamond: First of all, for the most part, I think that top advisors are loathe to move. And they may have a bunch of frustrations or things that they wish were different, but generally speaking, they’ve always been well taken care of. They have the bat phone to the top, it’s good enough and nobody wants to mess with success. But two things are true today more than ever before, that the competitive landscape, there are more options than ever before, that their businesses are worth more than before. I guess it’s more than two things. That they’re thinking about their business as a business and saying, “Yeah, it’s a hassle to move, but if I can maximize the value of my business more elsewhere and at the same time solve for what I want to, maybe I really do need to consider it. And so I think that it’s a time of more consideration, that top advisors, in particular, are just not willing to settle for the status quo. Louis Diamond: Yeah, no doubt. The only thing I would add, but I completely agree, is that today the retire in place or succession opportunities for a wirehouse advisor to transition or sell their business to their next generation or to another team or even an independent advisor, to sell their business to their broker dealer or to someone within their firm, those opportunities, the internal options, I think are more compelling than ever. So we hear a lot from really successful advisors who, that actually doesn’t matter if they’re successful or let’s say they’re mid-tier in the industry, where it’s much easier to stay. And the firms are smart. They’ve made these internal deals better for the retiring advisor at the expense of the inheriting advisor, but they definitely try to create the easy button for someone who’s successful and might be fairly close to the end zone of their career. Mindy Diamond: And yeah, unequivocally. And so I think what happens is that, as these senior advisors are weighing the notion of will I eventually take my firm’s retire in place program, hit that easy button, if you will, take the path of lease resistance? Before they do, most of them will, and absolutely should, at least get educated about what else is out there. Not with an eye toward moving necessarily, but with an eye toward knowing what their value is before they sign on for the next seven to 10 years. Louis Diamond: No doubt about it. So I think for the most part, we’re talking about mostly top two, advisors who are objectively winning. They have amazing businesses, they’re growing, they have loyal clients. Work-life balance is probably pretty good. So why do so many of these advisors still feel unsettled at the end of the day? Mindy Diamond: Because I think that without question, the number one thing that every advisor, but definitely the most successful advisors want, is agency. Agency over their professional life and anything, any day, any event that smacks of loss of agency or less agency than they would like, less control than they would like, makes them feel unsettled is a good word. Unsettled is probably a euphemism for exceedingly frustrated, really angry, ready to go. So look, our job in talking to these folks is, first of all, to say to them, there is no perfection anywhere. So the first thing is you may be annoyed that your firm did X, Y and Z, or you don’t have control over A, B, and C, or you may want more of A, B and C, but at the end of the day, you need to be sure that you’re aware of the hassle factor, you’re willing to trade one set of problems for potentially another. I guess what I’m saying is you got to really be sure that you want it. That’s the bottom line. Louis Diamond: No doubt. I would also add a bit of a different spin that a lot of advisors, these folks that I think by any objective measure, they’re killing it. You look at any of their friends outside the industry, their friends probably look at them and say, “Wow, this advisor has an amazing life.” And I think we’d probably say the same, but I think we see it where there’s a difference between being professionally motivated and energized versus just being comfortable. And I think with a lot of folks, especially if it’s a fee-based business, their clients are mostly friends. They grinded in the early years. They still work hard, but now things are on autopilot. So I think some people around unsettled because they have 10, 15, 20, 25 years left to work and they look and say, “This is great. I make a good living. Life’s not that hard,” but they’re missing that spark that they used to have. Mindy Diamond: I couldn’t agree more. I actually love that spin, and if I can, I’ll share an example of a conversation I had literally just last week. So talking with one of three senior partners on a very successful wirehouse team, without a doubt, one of the top teams in the industry, and this is a team that absolutely has a bat phone to the top. This is a team that gets referrals from their firm. So if another advisor leaves, they’re the go-to. If someone has an investment banking deal and needs to bring in a wealth advisor, they would go to this team. This is the team or one of a few teams. And I talked to them probably every six months for the last 10 years, and I’m not kidding, and we just have a nice relationship. They trust me. No, I would never sell them. And so they just want to understand the pulse on things. And for years, that’s essentially what they’ve said is, “We’re killing it, we’re crushing it. We are the go-to team and everything is hitting on all cylinders. And we know that we’ve got our firm’s retire in place programs when two of our senior partners are ready to cash out.” But just last week, not even the senior most member, probably the second to senior most member called and said, “It’s all working well, but I have this fire in my belly.” That’s a good way to say it, right? I have the sense that I’m missing something. And so some of the time, it’s about just getting to that place, say, when the straw that breaks the camel’s back. Something happens, you can’t take it any more, time to go. But with those top advisors, more often than not, it’s not about straw that breaks the camel’s back. It’s much more about fire in my belly. I realize that will I feel good if, at the end of the day, five minutes, five years or 20 years from now, will I feel good if I leave it all behind? We’re right here. Louis Diamond: Yep, exactly. Yeah, I think part of it is legacy, but the other part is just fast forwarding the tape. If you say 20 years from now, and you look back in the last 20 years, is you plus 20 years going to feel satisfied and encouraged and excited about what you were accomplishing? Or was it more of a, yeah, it was good, it was easy. I bought three houses and I have a boat. Or was it more about the personal joy of growing and building something and being part of something? Mindy Diamond: That’s actually a very good way to say it. Where can the top advisor find that joy? So let’s say I’m hitting on all cylinders, top of the food chain at fill in the blank firm, a traditional firm. What are typically the things that advisor, the options that advisor might consider that could ignite that joy? Louis Diamond: Yeah, I mean, honestly, probably a bad nonspecific answer, but it really could be anything. I mean, we see plenty of teams that are with one major wirehouse, they move to another one and just the act of transitioning is re-energizing. They have backend bonuses to hit. This new firm has a bit of a different culture, they feel more important again, and that’s their spark. Others, it would be we’re building something, we’re creating our own firm. Others might be I’m now an equity partner in something that I have a hand in, I have a voice. They actually listen to me. So I think it can be all of the above. It’s more about what is it that an advisor is most interested in? And then at this point in the industry, it’s choose your own adventure. If you have some sort of feeling or urge, whether it’s I want to do something different, I want to grow faster, I’m frustrated by X, Y, Z, it’s more about filling in the blanks of what your next journey looks like. And my guess is just thinking about that is going to provide that natural spark or ignition. Mindy Diamond: Yeah. And if I can, the piece of advice that I gave to this team, and I think is worth mentioning here, you’re absolutely right. Choose your own adventure. To us, I think we would both say that most exciting thing about being in our position and being the counselor or the guide or the Sherpa to advisors as they consider what comes next is the amount of choice that they have and how exciting the next chapter can be. But what I said to this team or the one advisor on this team is, “You’ve always got to be really clear on what your true north is.” So yes, there’s a lot of options. An advisor can find joy or reignite the spark at any number of choices, more than ever before. But being really clear before you begin to take meetings or think about it on what you’re looking to solve for, what’s most important to you really matters or else you wind up just spinning your wheels for a lot of time. Louis Diamond: Clearly agree. How do you distinguish between being comfortable in your business and being energized by a business? Do you think there’s a difference? Mindy Diamond: Yeah, look, I think in some cases, they could be one and the same. I think somebody can be comfortable because they feel energized. They’re hitting on all cylinders. They’ve got a lot of agency and professional control over their business. They’re where they want to be. They’re living their true north. But I think in many cases, and many of the advisors we’ve counseled, they aren’t one of the same. I’m comfortable because, as you said, I have a great quality of life, I’m making great money, I have a lot of freedom to coach my kids’ basketball team. I can work from home, I can travel when I want to, I have great clients. I may not technically own my business, but I feel as though I do. I’m comfortable enough. But what this advisor last week said to me, and what we hear a lot, is I’m comfortably uncomfortable. That I am comfortable enough. If I retired from here, I will have made a ton of money, I will have done good work and it all would be good enough. But whether or not good enough is really good enough in terms of professionally satisfying and everything you want it to be is a very different question. Louis Diamond: Exactly. I’ll give an example of that. I have an advisor I speak to who’s independent. So he’s been independent for his entire career at a broker dealer. He’s an absolute stone-cold killer. I told him that. He’s probably top three advisors at his BD, so it’s great for the ego. He’s on the conference circuit and sharing his best practices, but he’s in his 40s and said to me, “I can continue to rinse, repeat, I can continue to get the accolades and be on the main stage, but I feel like I’m missing something. I just know how to run the same place and I don’t really see how that’s going to change.” So he has a pretty hard decision because it’s nice to feel important, it’s nice to grow without a lot of extra effort, but for this individual, it’s becoming clear that spark or feeling energized again is his true north. Mindy Diamond: And so what would he look at? In other words, if you are already top of the food chain at your broker dealer, and by the way, we see that a lot, that advisors in the independent space that work under broker dealer that are number one, they are the one at the conference that everybody goes up to and said, “Oh my God, I hear such great things about you. I want to learn from you.” So what is it he’s missing? Louis Diamond: For this individual, what he thinks he’s missing is the chance to really build his own platform. So if this gentleman decides to make a change, it’s definitively going to be to build his own RIA, where he can pick and choose all the technology. He’s really bullish about his personal network and being able to recruit like-minded folks in to do acquisitions. And his North Star is going to be, how do I build the most valuable enterprise that I can sell for a whole boatload of money 15 years from now? It’s a great example because this person has everything that most people would want, but he’s still wanting more. And what he’s looking to accomplish is probably similar to a lot of people, but the means that he’s going to get there and the weighting that he’s putting on his criteria are different. And that’s what, I think, the best part of being an advisor is you have so much choice. There’s no one telling you, “You have to grow, you have to do this, you have to care about money, you have to onboard X number of clients.” It’s much more about how do you listen to your heart and then make intentional choices to make it happen, essentially. Mindy Diamond: Yeah, and I think that’s the calculus. His calculus is it’s more than enough here. The question is, am I willing to upset what’s more than good enough, upset that apple cart in order to get something that is marginally better? And his answer, or our advice to somebody like that, is it really depends upon how much you want it. If it will feel soulful to you, if, at the end of the day, you will feel better about the professional legacy you left behind, having built something bigger and better with less limitations, then you’ll do it. You have to decide how much you want it. It’s interesting, if I can go back to this example, this team’s true north is a little different and it’s worth contrasting. So while, for sure, they would love nothing more than to maximize enterprise value, and they recognize that if they and any of their partners retire through their firm’s retire in place program, it’s a way of monetizing, but they look at their firm as a monopolistic buyer. That was the term that they used. My comment to them is, “So what? Monopolistic or not, if, at the end of the day, it allows you to do what you need to do when you get paid a fair value, who cares if they’re monopolistic?” That really is the truth. But their true north is they would love to build something. They don’t need to build their own platform. In fact, they would want nothing more than to plug into an already existing platform. And they recognize that by doing so, they’re giving up some enterprise value. And the way to maximize enterprise value the fullest is to go out and build your own. But in this particular instance, they don’t want to do that. They’ve got partners that some are in their 60s and that’s not going to be appealing to them. So their true north might be something a little bit different. I think the point here is being really clear on what you’re true north is really important because it guides the set of choices. Louis Diamond: No doubt. At what point do you think more of the same stops being a growth strategy and starts becoming a constraint? Mindy Diamond: Oh, well, just that. Your example was the perfect example, right? That I am doing incredibly well. I could keep on doing this, but in some way, it’s not only constraining my growth, but in some way it’s constraining my professional satisfaction. And I think more often than not, it’s about that. Because the audience I think we’re talking to in this podcast are really successful folks. There’s no question that there’s nothing we can tell them that would suggest that they’re not successful as they are. So if they decide to upset the apple cart or they decide to look for more, it’s because there is that fire in your belly, that something, that entrepreneurial spark or that something that’s not being satisfied. Louis Diamond: I agree. Yeah. I think sometimes it’s a matter of time says to me, if someone finds something that works, it’s a pretty sound business strategy to rinse, repeat, and keep doing it, focus on what’s essential, cut out the rest. You read any business book, it’s going to tell you double down on what’s working, cut out the rest. The 80/20, et cetera. But I think eventually you keep doing the same thing over and over again, and it might still yield results, but is it yielding the growth? Is it yielding exponential results? And at some point, does just doing the same thing, is it still driving you in the same way? Mindy Diamond: Yeah, and I think a lot of times people don’t really know what they’re missing. In other words, the growth strategy is working. I’m growing X amount per year. I’m living a good life. I’m consistently in the top five advisors in my firm. It’s working and nobody could argue that it isn’t. I think it’s just more about a lot of times as advisors, one of two things, either one of their friends move, a professional colleague that they respect and they say, “Holy cow, he was here or she was here for 30 years, like me, killing it. She would’ve been the last person I would’ve thought would move.” And then suddenly she does, and it makes them say, “What am I missing? What did she see that I am not aware of?” Or a lot of times these folks will, another example I’ll give you. An advisor that I’ve worked with for many years, probably 25 years, who is top of the food chain, doing incredibly well, never really thought about moving, talked over the years, “Boy, it would be nice to build something of my own, but the truth of the matter is that success and the thought of having to go back to zero and build something from scratch, no way.” But you and I came across an opportunity that was unbelievably compelling, and without going into too much detail about the opportunity, suddenly when we talked about that opportunity with this advisor, what he said was, “You can’t be what you can’t see.” All of a sudden we painted the picture of something that’s really compelling I didn’t even know I wanted, but holy cow, now I know I really want it. Louis Diamond: Yeah, because something, this dream was made tangible. It put a face on something that this advisor didn’t realize they were missing. I mean, I see this every day, this next question, I’d love to get your opinion. I feel like most advisors, they may sense something is off or something’s changing or shifting under their feet, but they say anyway, why do you think success is often the very thing that keeps advisors stuck? Mindy Diamond: Yeah, I think it’s more than good enough. And for most of us, most of the time, I might have that little voice in me or that little inkling that says, gee, maybe it could be better. Or gee, I wonder if or something of the sort, but I have a zillion competing priorities. I’m a dad or I’m a mom or I want to travel, or I’m 60 years old, or I’m filling any blank at any time. And I think that it’s really hard to give up on that. And I think that the example we just gave, of this advisor that saw an opportunity, a unique opportunity that solved for a lot of the things that he didn’t even know he was missing, that happens more often than not. Louis Diamond: Yep, I agree. I think too, what happens is a lot of advisors think about moving as strictly a financial trade. My grid rate is this and my fees are that I can get 3.5X here, but only 2X up front have Y in deferred comp. And I think when advisors are thinking about that, which is a reasonable lens to look through, end of the day, they’re business people. If the business is growing and they have to place Y or they know how to get things done, it’s much harder to justify that change. It’s like people who sell their house top of the market, it’s like, hey, it’s this thing and keep growing, and do you feel like you’re missing out because you’re leaving at this point in time? Typically, too, when things are good, clients are happy, the reviews are easier. We see it a lot with the market being up. In 2025, the market was up almost 20%, much harder for some folks to justify moving because they feel like, whether it’s artificial or it’s real, that their business is really cranking. So I think that’s a big part of it as well. Mindy Diamond: Yeah. And maybe another little spin on it is a lot of times to move is really, from a financial perspective, may only be marginally better in the short-term, whether it be because after taxes, the amount of tabs you get upfront is not that much greater than the deal you could get by retiring through your firm’s sunset program. Or if you move, you’re going to be leaving some clients behind. So if you factor in the breakage from losing clients and the short-term upside, the delta may not be that great. We see a lot of times when an advisor is already independent and they’re at a net 60 or 65% payout and they’re looking at something that gives them a 70% net payout and they say, “Yeah, okay, so those extra basis points are nice, but is it nice enough? Is it worth the hassle?” The answer to that is it is entirely an inside job. For some that delta, even if that delta was only 2 cents, would be more than enough to justify the change. And for others, if the delta was 2000000%, it wouldn’t be enough. So what’s this positive? What’s this positive or determinant is how badly they want it. How badly, beyond the financial piece, they want what another opportunity would give them. Either that I really have this fire in my belly, and I love that term, and I just can’t solve for it. I can’t extinguish that fire here. I can’t feed that fire here. Or opportunistically, I want to be something I just can’t here, and I want it so badly that even if, financially, it’s only marginally better in the short-term, I’m willing to go through the hassle to get it. Louis Diamond: No doubt. And one last point to put a bow on this segment is I think there’s also an element that advisors who are growing or they have a big pipeline, and to me, the best advisors always have a big pipeline. They always have the next big prospect. There’s definitely some, I think, real fear that I’m going from growing 10% per year to reflexively choosing to make my life really hard for a couple of months to slow down growth, perhaps lose some of the pipeline, lose some of the big clients I just onboarded. And that’s really hard to justify because the trade-off is that much more apparent to them. Mindy Diamond: Yeah. Which you really want it. Louis Diamond: But that’s always going to be the case. That’s the point. The good advisors, for the most part, are always growing and always doing these things. So it’s like running on a treadmill. The same thing with unvested deferred compensation. I have 2 million of unvested deferred, it’s so hard to walk away from. The counterpoint is you’re always going to have that. If anything, it’s just going to grow. So again, it’s taking a step back to take multiple steps forward. Some people want that and are excited by it. Some people aren’t, but that’s okay. Mindy Diamond: Yeah, and I think that’s the whole point. While we get paid to move people, our position and the relationships we’ve had for years with top advisors, with every advisor, is they trust us because we’re never looking to just sell them on a hot opportunity. We’ll bring opportunities to them and say, “Here’s what’s available, here’s what the upside could be,” but we know and respect better than anyone that you got to really want it. It is a hassle. It’s hard work to move, and you’ve got to have a real confidence in your clients, your current clients, that they’re going to follow you. You’ve got to have real confidence that your pipeline will follow you, that what’s not certain. You’ve got to have confidence that you can tolerate the risk, and you’ve got to have confidence that your team’s going to follow you and that you’ve got the support you need. And not everyone has the appetite for it, nor should they. Louis Diamond: Exactly. I mean, I would say there’s two competing, I guess, thoughts that oftentimes go through an advisor’s mind, and they’re both extremely reasonable. The first one is the fear of change, but at the same time it’s the fear of staying exactly where they are for another 10, 15, 20 years. How do you think advisors can reconcile the tensions, like the angel on one shoulder, the devil on the other? One’s super comfortable and safe. The other one is an unknown. One’s exciting, one, et cetera. So how would you reconcile that? Mindy Diamond: Well, first of all, the short answer is it takes years. The two examples I just raised, and I’ll ask you the same question, are advisors that I’ve been talking to for 10 years plus. In one case, it could be 15 or 20. So for 10 or 15 years, there was always a certain amount of angst, a certain amount of curiosity, but not at all a willingness to do anything about it until in one case, something happened. Something happened that made them realize that they’re paying an awful lot of money to their firm for value they’re not getting anymore, feeling limited. And so they decided to pick up their head and look elsewhere. In the other case, it was opportunistic. Really was perfectly happy doing their thing and heard or saw an opportunity that sounded compelling and began exploring. Now, I don’t know whether either one of these teams will ultimately move, so let’s say that, but these conversations are many years in the making. So I think the point I’m making is that devil on one side, an angel on the other are those two competing voices. They exist for a long time until either, in some cases, they never get reconciled and the advisor just retires and it is what it is. In other cases, they get reconciled, but sometimes five, 10 years after the voices begin to surface and they don’t happen, they don’t get reconciled until something happens to force it. Louis Diamond: Yeah. I also look at this concept as we’ll call it a midlife career crisis. So I’m 40 years old. Instead of buying three motorcycles and a Porsche and going skydiving, I’m thinking about my business. And sometimes, I think people just wake up and say, “Wow, I don’t really know what my identity is and I need to do something different. I need that additional spark.” So I think sometimes too, it’s just either an age thing or a certain birthday comes up or it’s just that a moment of clarity that pops into the mind. Mindy Diamond: Totally agree. Louis Diamond: Why do you think this feeling is showing up now more than ever? Is it because of recruiting deals? Is it because of the movement toward independence? Is it something else or somethings else? Mindy Diamond: Yes, I think it’s all of the above, and I think that’s the cool thing. Valuations are at an all-time high. So even if an advisor has zero interest in going independent, you have to be living under a rock not to know that your business has real value. That business, outside of the constraints of a major firm, is worth much more than it is on the inside. Now, that doesn’t mean that everybody should go independent, or will, but the fact that those multiples are hanging out there and that recruiting deals are at an all-time high, and they are, the fact that there’s more optionality, which means an advisor, if they go out and explore, is more likely to find their personal version of Utopia or something closest to it. The fact that movement begets movement. That’s something we haven’t talked about, but it’s worth mentioning that all you have to do is read AdvisorHub or just be sitting in your office and every day, watch somebody you respect make a move. And so the more you see top advisors move, the more you say maybe there really is something else out there for me as well. And then you and I always say that the big firms are one policy change, one comp change, one mandate, one something away from frustrating the heck out of a large constituency because the bottom line is, as long as you’re an employee, you’re vulnerable or captive to whatever choices the firm makes. Louis Diamond: Yeah. I think you’re talking about, in a very nice way, what happened with UBS at the end of 2024, but we even see it outside of the wirehouses. There’s independent firms that layer in new fees or they don’t allow their advisors to text. There’s always that risk that something big coming down the pike that motivates someone. I’ll give you two other reasons why they think this is happening with more frequency. The first one is advisors’ careers are oftentimes longer, either because they’re bringing their kids into the business or the business is so lucrative, and if the business is mostly fee-based and it’s on autopilot, it’s like, why should I hang up the old boots when I can just work for another handful of years? So I think with longer advisor careers and the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, which is either a big exit or a retire in place deal, I think advisors just grapple with more and they grapple with it for longer. Mindy Diamond: Yeah, you brought up a point. I’m so happy you brought it up. I’m sitting here next to my son, my next generation. I have said oftentimes that, without my sons coming into the business, I don’t know that I would’ve had the same relationship to the business as I aged. As I got older, and I’ll be transparent, I’m 63-year-old now, if 10 years ago, my sons had not decided to join me, I think that I might have said, “I’ll work as long as it feels soulful and good, and if something better comes along, great.” But it wasn’t until they came along that I really began to think about everything through their lens. It was less about me because by the time I was 50, from a financial perspective, I could have left if I wanted to. But as long as my kids weren’t in the business, there’s no way I was going to do that. There was no way I wouldn’t want what was the absolute best for the business. And I guess that’s a long-winded way of saying in an industry where there’s so many multigenerational businesses, father-son, mother-daughter, whatever it is, senior advisors that really care, even if they’re not family, about their next generation, when they begin to look at their business through the lens of their next generation, the technology may be good enough for me, but it’s sure not cutting edge enough. Or they say things like, “The bureaucracy is killing me, but I work three hours a day,” or, “I have such a good life, I don’t want to upset the apple cart.” But then all of a sudden, one day we get a call either from that senior advisor, for whom it was more than good enough for years, or from the next generation that says, “This is not what I want. It may have been good enough for my dad and my mom, but it’s not good enough for me.” So it’s a long-winded way of saying I think that the next generation really forces the senior advisors, the elder states, G1 to grapple with whether or not this is good enough. Louis Diamond: Yep. I’ll answer my own question first and then get your opinion, because I feel pretty strongly about my answer. In thinking about our four to five point list here of why this is a bigger deal now, I tap in with more frequency. The question for both of us is which one do you think has the biggest psychological impact on advisors right now? I’m going to go first because I’m excited about my answer. I think by far, it’s practice valuations by far. Because what’s happening is advisors are reading news articles, hearing from their friend, getting cold-called from corporate development folks at firms, and they hear what used to be just ludicrous multiples. These were multiples that were reserved 100, $200 million revenue business are now getting paid to a three to $5 million practice. And any advisor, even ones who aren’t super financially motivated, I think just hearing about this, knowing what’s possible has a major psychological impact. It’s making it that much harder for folks to say, “You know what? It’s comfortable. It’s easy. I can retire here because the opportunity cost of staying put has accelerated that much.” What do you think? Mindy Diamond: So unequivocally, and I am money motivated for sure, so I agree with you. But at my stage and age, if I were an advisor, I absolutely wouldn’t be able to ignore the impact that maximizing enterprise value might have and how awesome it would be to be building a business that could be worth more. But I would equally, if not more so, be really concerned about, A, how it would feel. Like am I going to be able to live the professional life, do what’s soulful for me? Am I going to be able to build the business I want to? Is this going to be the business, the legacy I’m going to feel good about? Is this going to be the business that I want my sons to take over? And that, to me, would be equally important. And I’m making it about me, but I think that’s what a lot of senior advisors would say. Louis Diamond: No doubt. So for folks that are questioning their situation, what do you think is a question or three or four or five of the right questions they should start asking themselves before even thinking about making a move? Mindy Diamond: Yeah. Well, one is, listen, what’s your true north? And even before, I mean question two, and I think what I just said, assessing your true north, figuring out where your true north is, one, because question two is what is it that’s bothering you? What is it that you’re frustrated by? And simultaneously, to what extent does it frustrate you? Like how, okay, so I feel mildly annoyed that I have to do X, but is it enough to make me want to move? So being clear on that is important. But I think even before you begin to delineate how frustrated you are, you have to be really clear on what you want to be when you grow up. What is it that would feel soulful? What are you trying to solve for? What are the parameters or realities that you need to take into account? You’d love to do X, but you have a senior partner that you know is never going to want that, whatever it is. So what is the true north? What are you frustrated by? Then it’s what risk appetite do I have? Louis Diamond: To take risks, yeah. Mindy Diamond: What risk appetite and what appetite in general do I have for disruption to my life? How tolerant will I be if one of my clients doesn’t follow with me, because that is really possible? How tolerant will I be if I spend a few months and I’m working harder than I’ve ever worked in my life, whatever it may be. And then I think it’s that question, what I want to be when I grow up is really what’s just positive. Do I want to be a business owner or am I a big corporate person and that’s just who I am and I’m comfortable with leveraging the name that’s on the door? Louis Diamond: No doubt. I think an interesting one is ask yourself, if I stayed exactly where I am for the next 15 years, would I be proud of what I built? I think it’s a really important one sometimes too, when I’m speaking with advisors who are worried about a transition, and honestly people should be worried about a transition. It’s terrible. There’s no sugar-coating it. It’s a lot of work. It’s scary. It’s a risk. You’re disrupting your life, all your client’s life, et cetera. But sometimes, I’d say, the reframe is the three months, four months, whatever it is of backbreaking work that you put in, is that worth it for the next 10, 15, 20 years of doing something that really sparks you more? And I think, again, it comes back to your question of risk appetite, but I think just thinking about that is a lot of people get lost in the immediacy of the risk and of the work, but they forget to look beyond that work to what’s possible on the other side of the rainbow. Mindy Diamond: And how important it is to get it. In other words, I may be very clear that I would like to have X. I’d like to do Y. I would love, I mean we hear this all the time. I’d love to be independent and build my own business. Boy, if I were 20 years younger or I was, whatever it was. So the point of the matter is you can be aware of wanting those things. It’s admirable to want them, but whether or not you actually should go after them, that’s an inside job. Louis Diamond: No doubt. I think another one I like is which regret is bigger to you, trying something and failing or never testing what’s possible? I think that’s a good one. Another philosophical one. Okay. Let’s change gears a little bit here. So for successful, we’ll say mid-career advisors, why do you think the biggest risk is oftentimes not making the wrong move, but choosing the status quo by default? Mindy Diamond: Answering it from the perspective, we’ve had a lot of senior advisors that say, “I look back on my career and if only I had made the move or gone to this 15 years ago.” So I think that’s the you get comfortable in the discomfort, it’s easier to stay put, and then before you know it in your head, you’re too old or you’re too settled or you’re too entrenched and you can’t go or it’s too late to go. Or in some cases, you’ve got so much unvested deferred comp, it’s too expensive to go. And so I don’t think that’s only about mid-career. I think you want to make sure that you’ve lived a professional life that’s not filled with regret. That’s really what I think. Louis Diamond: No doubt about it. I think too, the fear of making the wrong move, call it buyer’s remorse, if you will. I honestly don’t really see it happen all that often. When I see it happen, it’s because someone went to their second or third choice firm because they got paid an extra 10% of their production. That’s where the wrong decision comes in. I usually find when advisors are thorough, they’re thoughtful, they’re making decisions for the right reasons, and there is a base level of motivation to do something different. You can’t really make the wrong choice. And I think, but again, it’s risk tolerance, et cetera. Let me give you two more questions here. What’s one step an advisor can take today to create clarity without committing to change? Mindy Diamond: Well, that question is the fundamental definition of how you and I see the world. So we traffic in advisors that are 10 years, 20 years from making a move or may never move. To us, it’s just about the relationship. That may sound foofy and crazy, but it is the truth. And so those conversations are all about being self-aware. That’s number one. Know thyself. Being self-aware of what’s important to me, what can I live with, how much risk tolerance do I have, et cetera. And then it’s also about having a clear understanding about what’s possible. So continuing to have conversation with people like you and I, continuing to read AdvisorHub or whatever it is about transitions that happen. Understanding the opportunities that are out there is not necessarily because you’re going to go take one of them or you’re going to change, but knowledge is power. It empowers you where you are. It’s competitive analysis, and that’s smart. That can only serve you well. Louis Diamond: Yep. I completely agree. One last question here, and I think probably a lot of people listening to this are thinking this personification of an advisor or advisors that we’re describing, are they just complainers? Are they just being ungrateful? On the one hand, there’s probably folks that are early in their careers working their butt up who are saying, “Hey, just be grateful for what you have. It’s really hard to get to where you are. So why are you looking a gift horse in the mouth?” So what would you say to that line of thinking, that questioning the status quo or questioning something that’s really good, does that means someone’s ungrateful or restless? Mindy Diamond: Oh my God, no. I think that the smartest and most successful, and honestly most grounded and grateful people are those that question the status quo. You can be, can and should be, simultaneously grateful for what you have. We say to advisors all the time, “We’re not from Merrill Lynch’s training program that catapulted you to the seat you are in now to become a 3 million, 5 million, $7 million advisor. You may be mad at Merrill Lynch now, or you may want something more than Merrill Lynch can give you today, but it doesn’t mean you’re ungrateful for what Merrill gave you.” And that’s the answer. I think that you can be grateful for this wonderful life that you’ve been afforded, but at the same time, aware of the fact that you may want more, and that’s a healthy, wonderful thing. Louis Diamond: Completely agree. Yeah. I mean, it’s similar to any large Fortune 500 company. You think of Apple, how many times they’ve reinvented themselves or everything that’s happening with AI. I think a big part of this too is future-proofing, right? It’s okay. It’s not being ungrateful. It’s more I’m taking proactive action to make sure I do have a business in 15 to 20 years, and that I’m positioning to myself and my clients to do the best possible work together. This is the fun topic. It’s obviously something on the mind of a live of advisor. It comes up probably in every group that we ever consult with, whether they’re a wirehouse advisor, they’re a private banker, they’re independent, et cetera. So I think a lot to learn here. My big takeaway from today is it’s okay to want more. There’s nothing wrong with you for wanting more. At the same time, there’s nothing wrong about being comfortable. Thank you very much for today. Mindy Diamond: Amen. My pleasure. Good topic. Louis Diamond: Thank you for joining us. We’ll be back with a new episode next week, so be sure to listen in. Mindy Diamond: As a financial advisor, you hold yourself to the highest standards of integrity, honesty, and credibility. You are successful because you take your professional responsibilities seriously and are dedicated to your clients. But are you living your best business life? Are your goals aligned with your firm’s, or could a better option exist? Should I Stay or Should I Go? is a book written with you in mind. It’s a self-guided journey that walks you through the key steps that we take with our advisor clients. This strategic thought process and roadmap to professional self-discovery is designed to help you ask the right questions and think critically and objectively, whether you’re considering change or not. Learn how to get your copy at diamond-consultants.com/thebook. Best of Replay: Why So Many Successful Advisors Feel Stuck An Industry Update with Louis Diamond and Mindy Diamond. Louis Diamond: Welcome to a replay of one of the most popular episodes from our podcast series for financial advisors. Why So Many Successful Advisors Feel Stuck. It’s a Special Industry Update with Mindy Diamond. I’m Louis Diamond and this is the Diamond Podcast for Financial Advisors. Mindy Diamond: At Diamond Consultants, we help elite advisors identify the right environment for their businesses to thrive, whether that’s at a wirehouse, boutique or independent firm. With nearly three decades of experience, we’ve guided thousands of advisors and represented more than a quarter of a trillion dollars in assets transitioned. And each year, one in four advisors managing a billion dollars or more who change firms are our clients. Our process is education-driven, and based on building relationships, starting as your strategic partner well before you’re even thinking of a move. To schedule a confidential conversation, call us at (908) 879-1002. Wondering why advisors change firms and where they’re headed? Are transition deals going up or down? Those very questions and more inspired us to create our annual advisor transition report. It’s the award-winning, data-driven resource designed for advisors that connects the dots between the motivations around movement and the firm’s appetite for top talent. Arm yourself with the knowledge you need to make smart decisions. Download your copy at diamond-consultants.com/transitionreport. Louis Diamond: We spend a lot of time talking with advisors who, by every external measure, are doing exceptionally well. They’ve built real businesses with strong production, loyal clients and teams that continue to grow, and yet behind closed doors, many of these same advisors are quietly asking a different set of questions. Not how do I fix what’s broken, but why doesn’t this feel as good as I expected? That tension is showing up more frequently than it did five or 10 years ago, and it’s not because advisors are failing. In many cases, it’s because they’ve won and now find themselves staring at another 15 to 20 years of more the same, unsure whether comfort has slowly replaced energy. This industry update is about that very moment. I asked Mindy to join me to unpack what we’re hearing from successful advisors across the industry, why success itself can become a constraint, how fear of change competes with fear of standing still, and why record valuations, longer careers and the maturity of the independent space are changing the psychology of decision-making. We also talk about the right questions to ask before considering a move, questions about control, enterprise value, legacy and time horizon, and how advisors can create clarity without forcing a decision. There’s lot to explore here, so let’s get into it. Mindy, thanks for joining us. Mindy Diamond: Oh, I’m so happy to be here. Always. Louis Diamond: This is a fun topic. So today we’re just going to dive right in. I’m curious, from your vantage point and talking and working with many of the best advisors in the industry at a high level, what are you hearing from successful advisors today that feels different from five or 10 years ago? Mindy Diamond: First of all, for the most part, I think that top advisors are loathe to move. And they may have a bunch of frustrations or things that they wish were different, but generally speaking, they’ve always been well taken care of. They have the bat phone to the top, it’s good enough and nobody wants to mess with success. But two things are true today more than ever before, that the competitive landscape, there are more options than ever before, that their businesses are worth more than before. I guess it’s more than two things. That they’re thinking about their business as a business and saying, “Yeah, it’s a hassle to move, but if I can maximize the value of my business more elsewhere and at the same time solve for what I want to, maybe I really do need to consider it. And so I think that it’s a time of more consideration, that top advisors, in particular, are just not willing to settle for the status quo. Louis Diamond: Yeah, no doubt. The only thing I would add, but I completely agree, is that today the retire in place or succession opportunities for a wirehouse advisor to transition or sell their business to their next generation or to another team or even an independent advisor, to sell their business to their broker dealer or to someone within their firm, those opportunities, the internal options, I think are more compelling than ever. So we hear a lot from really successful advisors who, that actually doesn’t matter if they’re successful or let’s say they’re mid-tier in the industry, where it’s much easier to stay. And the firms are smart. They’ve made these internal deals better for the retiring advisor at the expense of the inheriting advisor, but they definitely try to create the easy button for someone who’s successful and might be fairly close to the end zone of their career. Mindy Diamond: And yeah, unequivocally. And so I think what happens is that, as these senior advisors are weighing the notion of will I eventually take my firm’s retire in place program, hit that easy button, if you will, take the path of lease resistance? Before they do, most of them will, and absolutely should, at least get educated about what else is out there. Not with an eye toward moving necessarily, but with an eye toward knowing what their value is before they sign on for the next seven to 10 years. Louis Diamond: No doubt about it. So I think for the most part, we’re talking about mostly top two, advisors who are objectively winning. They have amazing businesses, they’re growing, they have loyal clients. Work-life balance is probably pretty good. So why do so many of these advisors still feel unsettled at the end of the day? Mindy Diamond: Because I think that without question, the number one thing that every advisor, but definitely the most successful advisors want, is agency. Agency over their professional life and anything, any day, any event that smacks of loss of agency or less agency than they would like, less control than they would like, makes them feel unsettled is a good word. Unsettled is probably a euphemism for exceedingly frustrated, really angry, ready to go. So look, our job in talking to these folks is, first of all, to say to them, there is no perfection anywhere. So the first thing is you may be annoyed that your firm did X, Y and Z, or you don’t have control over A, B, and C, or you may want more of A, B and C, but at the end of the day, you need to be sure that you’re aware of the hassle factor, you’re willing to trade one set of problems for potentially another. I guess what I’m saying is you got to really be sure that you want it. That’s the bottom line. Louis Diamond: No doubt. I would also add a bit of a different spin that a lot of advisors, these folks that I think by any objective measure, they’re killing it. You look at any of their friends outside the industry, their friends probably look at them and say, “Wow, this advisor has an amazing life.” And I think we’d probably say the same, but I think we see it where there’s a difference between being professionally motivated and energized versus just being comfortable. And I think with a lot of folks, especially if it’s a fee-based business, their clients are mostly friends. They grinded in the early years. They still work hard, but now things are on autopilot. So I think some people around unsettled because they have 10, 15, 20, 25 years left to work and they look and say, “This is great. I make a good living. Life’s not that hard,” but they’re missing that spark that they used to have. Mindy Diamond: I couldn’t agree more. I actually love that spin, and if I can, I’ll share an example of a conversation I had literally just last week. So talking with one of three senior partners on a very successful wirehouse team, without a doubt, one of the top teams in the industry, and this is a team that absolutely has a bat phone to the top. This is a team that gets referrals from their firm. So if another advisor leaves, they’re the go-to. If someone has an investment banking deal and needs to bring in a wealth advisor, they would go to this team. This is the team or one of a few teams. And I talked to them probably every six months for the last 10 years, and I’m not kidding, and we just have a nice relationship. They trust me. No, I would never sell them. And so they just want to understand the pulse on things. And for years, that’s essentially what they’ve said is, “We’re killing it, we’re crushing it. We are the go-to team and everything is hitting on all cylinders. And we know that we’ve got our firm’s retire in place programs when two of our senior partners are ready to cash out.” But just last week, not even the senior most member, probably the second to senior most member called and said, “It’s all working well, but I have this fire in my belly.” That’s a good way to say it, right? I have the sense that I’m missing something. And so some of the time, it’s about just getting to that place, say, when the straw that breaks the camel’s back. Something happens, you can’t take it any more, time to go. But with those top advisors, more often than not, it’s not about straw that breaks the camel’s back. It’s much more about fire in my belly. I realize that will I feel good if, at the end of the day, five minutes, five years or 20 years from now, will I feel good if I leave it all behind? We’re right here. Louis Diamond: Yep, exactly. Yeah, I think part of it is legacy, but the other part is just fast forwarding the tape. If you say 20 years from now, and you look back in the last 20 years, is you plus 20 years going to feel satisfied and encouraged and excited about what you were accomplishing? Or was it more of a, yeah, it was good, it was easy. I bought three houses and I have a boat. Or was it more about the personal joy of growing and building something and being part of something? Mindy Diamond: That’s actually a very good way to say it. Where can the top advisor find that joy? So let’s say I’m hitting on all cylinders, top of the food chain at fill in the blank firm, a traditional firm. What are typically the things that advisor, the options that advisor might consider that could ignite that joy? Louis Diamond: Yeah, I mean, honestly, probably a bad nonspecific answer, but it really could be anything. I mean, we see plenty of teams that are with one major wirehouse, they move to another one and just the act of transitioning is re-energizing. They have backend bonuses to hit. This new firm has a bit of a different culture, they feel more important again, and that’s their spark. Others, it would be we’re building something, we’re creating our own firm. Others might be I’m now an equity partner in something that I have a hand in, I have a voice. They actually listen to me. So I think it can be all of the above. It’s more about what is it that an advisor is most interested in? And then at this point in the industry, it’s choose your own adventure. If you have some sort of feeling or urge, whether it’s I want to do something different, I want to grow faster, I’m frustrated by X, Y, Z, it’s more about filling in the blanks of what your next journey looks like. And my guess is just thinking about that is going to provide that natural spark or ignition. Mindy Diamond: Yeah. And if I can, the piece of advice that I gave to this team, and I think is worth mentioning here, you’re absolutely right. Choose your own adventure. To us, I think we would both say that most exciting thing about being in our position and being the counselor or the guide or the Sherpa to advisors as they consider what comes next is the amount of choice that they have and how exciting the next chapter can be. But what I said to this team or the one advisor on this team is, “You’ve always got to be really clear on what your true north is.” So yes, there’s a lot of options. An advisor can find joy or reignite the spark at any number of choices, more than ever before. But being really clear before you begin to take meetings or think about it on what you’re looking to solve for, what’s most important to you really matters or else you wind up just spinning your wheels for a lot of time. Louis Diamond: Clearly agree. How do you distinguish between being comfortable in your business and being energized by a business? Do you think there’s a difference? Mindy Diamond: Yeah, look, I think in some cases, they could be one and the same. I think somebody can be comfortable because they feel energized. They’re hitting on all cylinders. They’ve got a lot of agency and professional control over their business. They’re where they want to be. They’re living their true north. But I think in many cases, and many of the advisors we’ve counseled, they aren’t one of the same. I’m comfortable because, as you said, I have a great quality of life, I’m making great money, I have a lot of freedom to coach my kids’ basketball team. I can work from home, I can travel when I want to, I have great clients. I may not technically own my business, but I feel as though I do. I’m comfortable enough. But what this advisor last week said to me, and what we hear a lot, is I’m comfortably uncomfortable. That I am comfortable enough. If I retired from here, I will have made a ton of money, I will have done good work and it all would be good enough. But whether or not good enough is really good enough in terms of professionally satisfying and everything you want it to be is a very different question. Louis Diamond: Exactly. I’ll give an example of that. I have an advisor I speak to who’s independent. So he’s been independent for his entire career at a broker dealer. He’s an absolute stone-cold killer. I told him that. He’s probably top three advisors at his BD, so it’s great for the ego. He’s on the conference circuit and sharing his best practices, but he’s in his 40s and said to me, “I can continue to rinse, repeat, I can continue to get the accolades and be on the main stage, but I feel like I’m missing something. I just know how to run the same place and I don’t really see how that’s going to change.” So he has a pretty hard decision because it’s nice to feel important, it’s nice to grow without a lot of extra effort, but for this individual, it’s becoming clear that spark or feeling energized again is his true north. Mindy Diamond: And so what would he look at? In other words, if you are already top of the food chain at your broker dealer, and by the way, we see that a lot, that advisors in the independent space that work under broker dealer that are number one, they are the one at the conference that everybody goes up to and said, “Oh my God, I hear such great things about you. I want to learn from you.” So what is it he’s missing? Louis Diamond: For this individual, what he thinks he’s missing is the chance to really build his own platform. So if this gentleman decides to make a change, it’s definitively going to be to build his own RIA, where he can pick and choose all the technology. He’s really bullish about his personal network and being able to recruit like-minded folks in to do acquisitions. And his North Star is going to be, how do I build the most valuable enterprise that I can sell for a whole boatload of money 15 years from now? It’s a great example because this person has everything that most people would want, but he’s still wanting more. And what he’s looking to accomplish is probably similar to a lot of people, but the means that he’s going to get there and the weighting that he’s putting on his criteria are different. And that’s what, I think, the best part of being an advisor is you have so much choice. There’s no one telling you, “You have to grow, you have to do this, you have to care about money, you have to onboard X number of clients.” It’s much more about how do you listen to your heart and then make intentional choices to make it happen, essentially. Mindy Diamond: Yeah, and I think that’s the calculus. His calculus is it’s more than enough here. The question is, am I willing to upset what’s more than good enough, upset that apple cart in order to get something that is marginally better? And his answer, or our advice to somebody like that, is it really depends upon how much you want it. If it will feel soulful to you, if, at the end of the day, you will feel better about the professional legacy you left behind, having built something bigger and better with less limitations, then you’ll do it. You have to decide how much you want it. It’s interesting, if I can go back to this example, this team’s true north is a little different and it’s worth contrasting. So while, for sure, they would love nothing more than to maximize enterprise value, and they recognize that if they and any of their partners retire through their firm’s retire in place program, it’s a way of monetizing, but they look at their firm as a monopolistic buyer. That was the term that they used. My comment to them is, “So what? Monopolistic or not, if, at the end of the day, it allows you to do what you need to do when you get paid a fair value, who cares if they’re monopolistic?” That really is the truth. But their true north is they would love to build something. They don’t need to build their own platform. In fact, they would want nothing more than to plug into an already existing platform. And they recognize that by doing so, they’re giving up some enterprise value. And the way to maximize enterprise value the fullest is to go out and build your own. But in this particular instance, they don’t want to do that. They’ve got partners that some are in their 60s and that’s not going to be appealing to them. So their true north might be something a little bit different. I think the point here is being really clear on what you’re true north is really important because it guides the set of choices. Louis Diamond: No doubt. At what point do you think more of the same stops being a growth strategy and starts becoming a constraint? Mindy Diamond: Oh, well, just that. Your example was the perfect example, right? That I am doing incredibly well. I could keep on doing this, but in some way, it’s not only constraining my growth, but in some way it’s constraining my professional satisfaction. And I think more often than not, it’s about that. Because the audience I think we’re talking to in this podcast are really successful folks. There’s no question that there’s nothing we can tell them that would suggest that they’re not successful as they are. So if they decide to upset the apple cart or they decide to look for more, it’s because there is that fire in your belly, that something, that entrepreneurial spark or that something that’s not being satisfied. Louis Diamond: I agree. Yeah. I think sometimes it’s a matter of time says to me, if someone finds something that works, it’s a pretty sound business strategy to rinse, repeat, and keep doing it, focus on what’s essential, cut out the rest. You read any business book, it’s going to tell you double down on what’s working, cut out the rest. The 80/20, et cetera. But I think eventually you keep doing the same thing over and over again, and it might still yield results, but is it yielding the growth? Is it yielding exponential results? And at some point, does just doing the same thing, is it still driving you in the same way? Mindy Diamond: Yeah, and I think a lot of times people don’t really know what they’re missing. In other words, the growth strategy is working. I’m growing X amount per year. I’m living a good life. I’m consistently in the top five advisors in my firm. It’s working and nobody could argue that it isn’t. I think it’s just more about a lot of times as advisors, one of two things, either one of their friends move, a professional colleague that they respect and they say, “Holy cow, he was here or she was here for 30 years, like me, killing it. She would’ve been the last person I would’ve thought would move.” And then suddenly she does, and it makes them say, “What am I missing? What did she see that I am not aware of?” Or a lot of times these folks will, another example I’ll give you. An advisor that I’ve worked with for many years, probably 25 years, who is top of the food chain, doing incredibly well, never really thought about moving, talked over the years, “Boy, it would be nice to build something of my own, but the truth of the matter is that success and the thought of having to go back to zero and build something from scratch, no way.” But you and I came across an opportunity that was unbelievably compelling, and without going into too much detail about the opportunity, suddenly when we talked about that opportunity with this advisor, what he said was, “You can’t be what you can’t see.” All of a sudden we painted the picture of something that’s really compelling I didn’t even know I wanted, but holy cow, now I know I really want it. Louis Diamond: Yeah, because something, this dream was made tangible. It put a face on something that this advisor didn’t realize they were missing. I mean, I see this every day, this next question, I’d love to get your opinion. I feel like most advisors, they may sense something is off or something’s changing or shifting under their feet, but they say anyway, why do you think success is often the very thing that keeps advisors stuck? Mindy Diamond: Yeah, I think it’s more than good enough. And for most of us, most of the time, I might have that little voice in me or that little inkling that says, gee, maybe it could be better. Or gee, I wonder if or something of the sort, but I have a zillion competing priorities. I’m a dad or I’m a mom or I want to travel, or I’m 60 years old, or I’m filling any blank at any time. And I think that it’s really hard to give up on that. And I think that the example we just gave, of this advisor that saw an opportunity, a unique opportunity that solved for a lot of the things that he didn’t even know he was missing, that happens more often than not. Louis Diamond: Yep, I agree. I think too, what happens is a lot of advisors think about moving as strictly a financial trade. My grid rate is this and my fees are that I can get 3.5X here, but only 2X up front have Y in deferred comp. And I think when advisors are thinking about that, which is a reasonable lens to look through, end of the day, they’re business people. If the business is growing and they have to place Y or they know how to get things done, it’s much harder to justify that change. It’s like people who sell their house top of the market, it’s like, hey, it’s this thing and keep growing, and do you feel like you’re missing out because you’re leaving at this point in time? Typically, too, when things are good, clients are happy, the reviews are easier. We see it a lot with the market being up. In 2025, the market was up almost 20%, much harder for some folks to justify moving because they feel like, whether it’s artificial or it’s real, that their business is really cranking. So I think that’s a big part of it as well. Mindy Diamond: Yeah. And maybe another little spin on it is a lot of times to move is really, from a financial perspective, may only be marginally better in the short-term, whether it be because after taxes, the amount of tabs you get upfront is not that much greater than the deal you could get by retiring through your firm’s sunset program. Or if you move, you’re going to be leaving some clients behind. So if you factor in the breakage from losing clients and the short-term upside, the delta may not be that great. We see a lot of times when an advisor is already independent and they’re at a net 60 or 65% payout and they’re looking at something that gives them a 70% net payout and they say, “Yeah, okay, so those extra basis points are nice, but is it nice enough? Is it worth the hassle?” The answer to that is it is entirely an inside job. For some that delta, even if that delta was only 2 cents, would be more than enough to justify the change. And for others, if the delta was 2000000%, it wouldn’t be enough. So what’s this positive? What’s this positive or determinant is how badly they want it. How badly, beyond the financial piece, they want what another opportunity would give them. Either that I really have this fire in my belly, and I love that term, and I just can’t solve for it. I can’t extinguish that fire here. I can’t feed that fire here. Or opportunistically, I want to be something I just can’t here, and I want it so badly that even if, financially, it’s only marginally better in the short-term, I’m willing to go through the hassle to get it. Louis Diamond: No doubt. And one last point to put a bow on this segment is I think there’s also an element that advisors who are growing or they have a big pipeline, and to me, the best advisors always have a big pipeline. They always have the next big prospect. There’s definitely some, I think, real fear that I’m going from growing 10% per year to reflexively choosing to make my life really hard for a couple of months to slow down growth, perhaps lose some of the pipeline, lose some of the big clients I just onboarded. And that’s really hard to justify because the trade-off is that much more apparent to them. Mindy Diamond: Yeah. Which you really want it. Louis Diamond: But that’s always going to be the case. That’s the point. The good advisors, for the most part, are always growing and always doing these things. So it’s like running on a treadmill. The same thing with unvested deferred compensation. I have 2 million of unvested deferred, it’s so hard to walk away from. The counterpoint is you’re always going to have that. If anything, it’s just going to grow. So again, it’s taking a step back to take multiple steps forward. Some people want that and are excited by it. Some people aren’t, but that’s okay. Mindy Diamond: Yeah, and I think that’s the whole point. While we get paid to move people, our position and the relationships we’ve had for years with top advisors, with every advisor, is they trust us because we’re never looking to just sell them on a hot opportunity. We’ll bring opportunities to them and say, “Here’s what’s available, here’s what the upside could be,” but we know and respect better than anyone that you got to really want it. It is a hassle. It’s hard work to move, and you’ve got to have a real confidence in your clients, your current clients, that they’re going to follow you. You’ve got to have real confidence that your pipeline will follow you, that what’s not certain. You’ve got to have confidence that you can tolerate the risk, and you’ve got to have confidence that your team’s going to follow you and that you’ve got the support you need. And not everyone has the appetite for it, nor should they. Louis Diamond: Exactly. I mean, I would say there’s two competing, I guess, thoughts that oftentimes go through an advisor’s mind, and they’re both extremely reasonable. The first one is the fear of change, but at the same time it’s the fear of staying exactly where they are for another 10, 15, 20 years. How do you think advisors can reconcile the tensions, like the angel on one shoulder, the devil on the other? One’s super comfortable and safe. The other one is an unknown. One’s exciting, one, et cetera. So how would you reconcile that? Mindy Diamond: Well, first of all, the short answer is it takes years. The two examples I just raised, and I’ll ask you the same question, are advisors that I’ve been talking to for 10 years plus. In one case, it could be 15 or 20. So for 10 or 15 years, there was always a certain amount of angst, a certain amount of curiosity, but not at all a willingness to do anything about it until in one case, something happened. Something happened that made them realize that they’re paying an awful lot of money to their firm for value they’re not getting anymore, feeling limited. And so they decided to pick up their head and look elsewhere. In the other case, it was opportunistic. Really was perfectly happy doing their thing and heard or saw an opportunity that sounded compelling and began exploring. Now, I don’t know whether either one of these teams will ultimately move, so let’s say that, but these conversations are many years in the making. So I think the point I’m making is that devil on one side, an angel on the other are those two competing voices. They exist for a long time until either, in some cases, they never get reconciled and the advisor just retires and it is what it is. In other cases, they get reconciled, but sometimes five, 10 years after the voices begin to surface and they don’t happen, they don’t get reconciled until something happens to force it. Louis Diamond: Yeah. I also look at this concept as we’ll call it a midlife career crisis. So I’m 40 years old. Instead of buying three motorcycles and a Porsche and going skydiving, I’m thinking about my business. And sometimes, I think people just wake up and say, “Wow, I don’t really know what my identity is and I need to do something different. I need that additional spark.” So I think sometimes too, it’s just either an age thing or a certain birthday comes up or it’s just that a moment of clarity that pops into the mind. Mindy Diamond: Totally agree. Louis Diamond: Why do you think this feeling is showing up now more than ever? Is it because of recruiting deals? Is it because of the movement toward independence? Is it something else or somethings else? Mindy Diamond: Yes, I think it’s all of the above, and I think that’s the cool thing. Valuations are at an all-time high. So even if an advisor has zero interest in going independent, you have to be living under a rock not to know that your business has real value. That business, outside of the constraints of a major firm, is worth much more than it is on the inside. Now, that doesn’t mean that everybody should go independent, or will, but the fact that those multiples are hanging out there and that recruiting deals are at an all-time high, and they are, the fact that there’s more optionality, which means an advisor, if they go out and explore, is more likely to find their personal version of Utopia or something closest to it. The fact that movement begets movement. That’s something we haven’t talked about, but it’s worth mentioning that all you have to do is read AdvisorHub or just be sitting in your office and every day, watch somebody you respect make a move. And so the more you see top advisors move, the more you say maybe there really is something else out there for me as well. And then you and I always say that the big firms are one policy change, one comp change, one mandate, one something away from frustrating the heck out of a large constituency because the bottom line is, as long as you’re an employee, you’re vulnerable or captive to whatever choices the firm makes. Louis Diamond: Yeah. I think you’re talking about, in a very nice way, what happened with UBS at the end of 2024, but we even see it outside of the wirehouses. There’s independent firms that layer in new fees or they don’t allow their advisors to text. There’s always that risk that something big coming down the pike that motivates someone. I’ll give you two other reasons why they think this is happening with more frequency. The first one is advisors’ careers are oftentimes longer, either because they’re bringing their kids into the business or the business is so lucrative, and if the business is mostly fee-based and it’s on autopilot, it’s like, why should I hang up the old boots when I can just work for another handful of years? So I think with longer advisor careers and the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, which is either a big exit or a retire in place deal, I think advisors just grapple with more and they grapple with it for longer. Mindy Diamond: Yeah, you brought up a point. I’m so happy you brought it up. I’m sitting here next to my son, my next generation. I have said oftentimes that, without my sons coming into the business, I don’t know that I would’ve had the same relationship to the business as I aged. As I got older, and I’ll be transparent, I’m 63-year-old now, if 10 years ago, my sons had not decided to join me, I think that I might have said, “I’ll work as long as it feels soulful and good, and if something better comes along, great.” But it wasn’t until they came along that I really began to think about everything through their lens. It was less about me because by the time I was 50, from a financial perspective, I could have left if I wanted to. But as long as my kids weren’t in the business, there’s no way I was going to do that. There was no way I wouldn’t want what was the absolute best for the business. And I guess that’s a long-winded way of saying in an industry where there’s so many multigenerational businesses, father-son, mother-daughter, whatever it is, senior advisors that really care, even if they’re not family, about their next generation, when they begin to look at their business through the lens of their next generation, the technology may be good enough for me, but it’s sure not cutting edge enough. Or they say things like, “The bureaucracy is killing me, but I work three hours a day,” or, “I have such a good life, I don’t want to upset the apple cart.” But then all of a sudden, one day we get a call either from that senior advisor, for whom it was more than good enough for years, or from the next generation that says, “This is not what I want. It may have been good enough for my dad and my mom, but it’s not good enough for me.” So it’s a long-winded way of saying I think that the next generation really forces the senior advisors, the elder states, G1 to grapple with whether or not this is good enough. Louis Diamond: Yep. I’ll answer my own question first and then get your opinion, because I feel pretty strongly about my answer. In thinking about our four to five point list here of why this is a bigger deal now, I tap in with more frequency. The question for both of us is which one do you think has the biggest psychological impact on advisors right now? I’m going to go first because I’m excited about my answer. I think by far, it’s practice valuations by far. Because what’s happening is advisors are reading news articles, hearing from their friend, getting cold-called from corporate development folks at firms, and they hear what used to be just ludicrous multiples. These were multiples that were reserved 100, $200 million revenue business are now getting paid to a three to $5 million practice. And any advisor, even ones who aren’t super financially motivated, I think just hearing about this, knowing what’s possible has a major psychological impact. It’s making it that much harder for folks to say, “You know what? It’s comfortable. It’s easy. I can retire here because the opportunity cost of staying put has accelerated that much.” What do you think? Mindy Diamond: So unequivocally, and I am money motivated for sure, so I agree with you. But at my stage and age, if I were an advisor, I absolutely wouldn’t be able to ignore the impact that maximizing enterprise value might have and how awesome it would be to be building a business that could be worth more. But I would equally, if not more so, be really concerned about, A, how it would feel. Like am I going to be able to live the professional life, do what’s soulful for me? Am I going to be able to build the business I want to? Is this going to be the business, the legacy I’m going to feel good about? Is this going to be the business that I want my sons to take over? And that, to me, would be equally important. And I’m making it about me, but I think that’s what a lot of senior advisors would say. Louis Diamond: No doubt. So for folks that are questioning their situation, what do you think is a question or three or four or five of the right questions they should start asking themselves before even thinking about making a move? Mindy Diamond: Yeah. Well, one is, listen, what’s your true north? And even before, I mean question two, and I think what I just said, assessing your true north, figuring out where your true north is, one, because question two is what is it that’s bothering you? What is it that you’re frustrated by? And simultaneously, to what extent does it frustrate you? Like how, okay, so I feel mildly annoyed that I have to do X, but is it enough to make me want to move? So being clear on that is important. But I think even before you begin to delineate how frustrated you are, you have to be really clear on what you want to be when you grow up. What is it that would feel soulful? What are you trying to solve for? What are the parameters or realities that you need to take into account? You’d love to do X, but you have a senior partner that you know is never going to want that, whatever it is. So what is the true north? What are you frustrated by? Then it’s what risk appetite do I have? Louis Diamond: To take risks, yeah. Mindy Diamond: What risk appetite and what appetite in general do I have for disruption to my life? How tolerant will I be if one of my clients doesn’t follow with me, because that is really possible? How tolerant will I be if I spend a few months and I’m working harder than I’ve ever worked in my life, whatever it may be. And then I think it’s that question, what I want to be when I grow up is really what’s just positive. Do I want to be a business owner or am I a big corporate person and that’s just who I am and I’m comfortable with leveraging the name that’s on the door? Louis Diamond: No doubt. I think an interesting one is ask yourself, if I stayed exactly where I am for the next 15 years, would I be proud of what I built? I think it’s a really important one sometimes too, when I’m speaking with advisors who are worried about a transition, and honestly people should be worried about a transition. It’s terrible. There’s no sugar-coating it. It’s a lot of work. It’s scary. It’s a risk. You’re disrupting your life, all your client’s life, et cetera. But sometimes, I’d say, the reframe is the three months, four months, whatever it is of backbreaking work that you put in, is that worth it for the next 10, 15, 20 years of doing something that really sparks you more? And I think, again, it comes back to your question of risk appetite, but I think just thinking about that is a lot of people get lost in the immediacy of the risk and of the work, but they forget to look beyond that work to what’s possible on the other side of the rainbow. Mindy Diamond: And how important it is to get it. In other words, I may be very clear that I would like to have X. I’d like to do Y. I would love, I mean we hear this all the time. I’d love to be independent and build my own business. Boy, if I were 20 years younger or I was, whatever it was. So the point of the matter is you can be aware of wanting those things. It’s admirable to want them, but whether or not you actually should go after them, that’s an inside job. Louis Diamond: No doubt. I think another one I like is which regret is bigger to you, trying something and failing or never testing what’s possible? I think that’s a good one. Another philosophical one. Okay. Let’s change gears a little bit here. So for successful, we’ll say mid-career advisors, why do you think the biggest risk is oftentimes not making the wrong move, but choosing the status quo by default? Mindy Diamond: Answering it from the perspective, we’ve had a lot of senior advisors that say, “I look back on my career and if only I had made the move or gone to this 15 years ago.” So I think that’s the you get comfortable in the discomfort, it’s easier to stay put, and then before you know it in your head, you’re too old or you’re too settled or you’re too entrenched and you can’t go or it’s too late to go. Or in some cases, you’ve got so much unvested deferred comp, it’s too expensive to go. And so I don’t think that’s only about mid-career. I think you want to make sure that you’ve lived a professional life that’s not filled with regret. That’s really what I think. Louis Diamond: No doubt about it. I think too, the fear of making the wrong move, call it buyer’s remorse, if you will. I honestly don’t really see it happen all that often. When I see it happen, it’s because someone went to their second or third choice firm because they got paid an extra 10% of their production. That’s where the wrong decision comes in. I usually find when advisors are thorough, they’re thoughtful, they’re making decisions for the right reasons, and there is a base level of motivation to do something different. You can’t really make the wrong choice. And I think, but again, it’s risk tolerance, et cetera. Let me give you two more questions here. What’s one step an advisor can take today to create clarity without committing to change? Mindy Diamond: Well, that question is the fundamental definition of how you and I see the world. So we traffic in advisors that are 10 years, 20 years from making a move or may never move. To us, it’s just about the relationship. That may sound foofy and crazy, but it is the truth. And so those conversations are all about being self-aware. That’s number one. Know thyself. Being self-aware of what’s important to me, what can I live with, how much risk tolerance do I have, et cetera. And then it’s also about having a clear understanding about what’s possible. So continuing to have conversation with people like you and I, continuing to read AdvisorHub or whatever it is about transitions that happen. Understanding the opportunities that are out there is not necessarily because you’re going to go take one of them or you’re going to change, but knowledge is power. It empowers you where you are. It’s competitive analysis, and that’s smart. That can only serve you well. Louis Diamond: Yep. I completely agree. One last question here, and I think probably a lot of people listening to this are thinking this personification of an advisor or advisors that we’re describing, are they just complainers? Are they just being ungrateful? On the one hand, there’s probably folks that are early in their careers working their butt up who are saying, “Hey, just be grateful for what you have. It’s really hard to get to where you are. So why are you looking a gift horse in the mouth?” So what would you say to that line of thinking, that questioning the status quo or questioning something that’s really good, does that means someone’s ungrateful or restless? Mindy Diamond: Oh my God, no. I think that the smartest and most successful, and honestly most grounded and grateful people are those that question the status quo. You can be, can and should be, simultaneously grateful for what you have. We say to advisors all the time, “We’re not from Merrill Lynch’s training program that catapulted you to the seat you are in now to become a 3 million, 5 million, $7 million advisor. You may be mad at Merrill Lynch now, or you may want something more than Merrill Lynch can give you today, but it doesn’t mean you’re ungrateful for what Merrill gave you.” And that’s the answer. I think that you can be grateful for this wonderful life that you’ve been afforded, but at the same time, aware of the fact that you may want more, and that’s a healthy, wonderful thing. Louis Diamond: Completely agree. Yeah. I mean, it’s similar to any large Fortune 500 company. You think of Apple, how many times they’ve reinvented themselves or everything that’s happening with AI. I think a big part of this too is future-proofing, right? It’s okay. It’s not being ungrateful. It’s more I’m taking proactive action to make sure I do have a business in 15 to 20 years, and that I’m positioning to myself and my clients to do the best possible work together. This is the fun topic. It’s obviously something on the mind of a live of advisor. It comes up probably in every group that we ever consult with, whether they’re a wirehouse advisor, they’re a private banker, they’re independent, et cetera. So I think a lot to learn here. My big takeaway from today is it’s okay to want more. There’s nothing wrong with you for wanting more. At the same time, there’s nothing wrong about being comfortable. Thank you very much for today. Mindy Diamond: Amen. My pleasure. Good topic. Louis Diamond: Thank you for joining us. We’ll be back with a new episode next week, so be sure to listen in. Mindy Diamond: As a financial advisor, you hold yourself to the highest standards of integrity, honesty, and credibility. You are successful because you take your professional responsibilities seriously and are dedicated to your clients. But are you living your best business life? Are your goals aligned with your firm’s, or could a better option exist? Should I Stay or Should I Go? is a book written with you in mind. It’s a self-guided journey that walks you through the key steps that we take with our advisor clients. This strategic thought process and roadmap to professional self-discovery is designed to help you ask the right questions and think critically and objectively, whether you’re considering change or not. Learn how to get your copy at diamond-consultants.com/thebook.

   September 10, 2026·47min
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   Number 2: Unleashing Potential: Why Capacity is an Advisor’s Biggest Competitive Advantage

   Michael Kim — CEO & President, AssetMark AssetMark CEO Michael Kim explains why advisor growth increasingly depends on creating capacity—and using outsourcing, technology, and AI to spend more time where advisors add the greatest value. In Summary Growth is a priority for nearly every advisory firm. But as client expectations expand and the business of wealth management becomes more complex, growth increasingly depends on an advisor’s ability to create capacity. Jason Diamond speaks with Michael Kim, CEO and President of AssetMark, about why the strongest firms are intentional about where advisors spend their time—and equally intentional about what they delegate, outsource, or automate. Drawing on AssetMark’s work with more than 12,000 independent financial advisors, Michael shares his perspective on organic growth, outsourcing investment management, AI, client experience, scale, and the evolving role of the advisor. His central message is straightforward: Advisors can do almost anything, but they can’t do everything. Sustainable growth requires deciding where they create the greatest value and building the business around it. The Storyline Michael Kim calls himself a “growth guy.” But his definition of growth goes well beyond adding assets, buying another practice, or simply getting bigger. After working with thousands of independent advisors throughout his career at Fidelity and AssetMark, Michael sees organic growth as one of the clearest measures of the health and durability of an advisory business. And the firms that consistently achieve it tend to have something in common: They treat growth as an intentional business priority rather than something they hope will happen. That creates a more fundamental question: Where should advisors actually spend their time? Michael argues that clients increasingly value the advisor—not simply the portfolio. They want guidance around taxes, wealth transfer, estate planning, business decisions, and the broader issues surrounding their wealth. Yet delivering that level of advice requires capacity. AssetMark’s Annual Impact of Outsourcing Survey, he says, finds that advisors who outsource gain more than nine hours per week—essentially another working day. AI potentially adds another layer of leverage. Michael sees its opportunity in two areas: productivity and experience. AssetMark’s developing Talk Tracks capability, for example, uses AI to prepare potential talking points and planning opportunities before client meetings. But Michael also cautions against allowing technology to depersonalize the relationship. As clients themselves become more informed through AI, the advisor’s ability to deliver deeply personal, trusted guidance may become even more important. That brings the discussion back to growth. Advisors are increasingly both trusted counselors and business owners. Building a scalable enterprise means making deliberate decisions about technology, outsourcing, talent, client experience, and where their own time produces the greatest return. Topics Covered Organic growth in wealth management Advisor capacity and productivity Outsourcing investment management AI in wealth management AssetMark Talk Tracks Advisor client experience The advisor as “wealth counselor” Scaling an advisory firm Fee compression and operating leverage RIA growth and independence M&A and access to capital > Download a transcript of this episode… Listen and Learn Highlights for Advisors What separates advisory firms that consistently grow from those that plateau? (12:36)Michael says the most successful growth-oriented firms are intentional about growth. They develop a plan, experiment with new approaches, and—most importantly—execute consistently. Why does Michael consider organic growth such an important measure of an advisory business? (15:27)Organic growth is not simply about adding clients. Michael describes it as a predictor of the health and durability of the business—something that also matters to potential investors and buyers. Should investment management still be a core part of an advisor’s value proposition? (18:42)Michael argues that clients increasingly want something broader: a trusted “wealth counselor” who can help them navigate taxes, wealth transfer, estate planning, and other complex financial decisions. How much capacity can outsourcing actually create for advisors? (23:05)According to AssetMark’s Annual Impact of Outsourcing Survey, advisors who outsource report gaining more than nine hours per week. Michael argues that time can be redirected toward clients and higher-impact business activities. Where does Michael see the greatest opportunity for AI in wealth management? (25:34)He identifies two areas: productivity and experience. AssetMark is embedding AI into advisor workflows, including its Talk Tracks capability designed to surface insights and potential planning conversations before client meetings. Could AI make the advisor-client relationship less personal? (30:12)Michael acknowledges the risk but sees a larger opportunity. As clients arrive better informed through AI, advisors can differentiate through more personal, emotionally connected guidance around the issues that matter most. How should advisors think about scale as fee pressure continues? (41:12)For Michael, scale does not simply mean cutting costs. It means using technology, people, outsourcing, and other resources to deliver a better client experience more efficiently. Where would Michael invest first if he were running an independent RIA? (43:11)Existing clients come first. Before M&A or other growth investments, he would invest in making the client experience stronger and the firm easier to do business with. Key Takeaways Growth requires intention. The firms Michael sees growing most successfully do not treat growth as a side project; they plan for it, invest in it, and consistently execute against it. Organic growth is a measure of business health. Beyond adding assets, it can signal the durability and potential enterprise value of an advisory firm. Capacity has become a strategic advantage. Advisors need to determine which activities require their direct involvement and which can be delegated, outsourced, or automated. The advisor’s value proposition is expanding. Portfolio management increasingly sits alongside tax planning, wealth transfer, estate planning, and other advice that clients expect from a trusted “wealth counselor.” AI should create better conversations, not simply greater efficiency. Michael sees the bigger opportunity in using AI to improve both productivity and the client experience. Scale is not synonymous with cost-cutting. Strategic investments in technology, talent, and outside expertise can allow firms to serve clients better while managing economic pressure. Client experience remains the foundation. Even when presented with opportunities to pursue M&A or other investments, Michael would prioritize strengthening relationships with existing clients first. https://youtu.be/vqlWGWAD08o Quotable Moments “Growth isn’t something that the advisors do as a hobby. It is arguably the number one priority.” — Michael Kim, 13:18 “Organic growth is the number one predictor of the health of the business.” — Michael Kim, 15:27 “The most important thing that the clients want from that advisor is the advisor, not the portfolio or which ETF that they selected.” — Michael Kim, 19:23 “The advisors can do anything, but they can’t do everything.” — Michael Kim, 23:05 FAQs Why is capacity so important for financial advisor growth? Advisors face expanding client expectations while still having a finite amount of time. Michael Kim argues that creating capacity through outsourcing, technology, AI, and delegation allows advisors to spend more time on client relationships and the activities that have the greatest impact on growth. What does Michael Kim believe drives organic growth for advisory firms? He emphasizes intentionality, planning, creativity, and consistent execution. Rather than treating growth as something that happens naturally through referrals, successful firms make it an ongoing business priority. How can outsourcing investment management help financial advisors? Outsourcing can shift research, portfolio management, trading, reporting, technology, and other functions to providers with greater scale. Michael says AssetMark’s Annual Impact of Outsourcing Survey found that advisors who outsource gain more than nine hours per week. How is AssetMark using AI for financial advisors? AssetMark is embedding AI into advisor workflows with the goal of improving productivity and client experience. Michael discusses Talk Tracks, a capability designed to surface relevant client insights and potential planning conversations before meetings. Will AI replace financial advisors? Michael does not believe it will. Instead, he expects clients to use AI themselves and arrive at advisor meetings better informed. That could make an advisor’s ability to provide trusted, personal, emotionally connected guidance even more valuable. How can advisory firms scale without sacrificing client experience? Michael describes scale as more than lowering costs. Firms can invest in technology, specialized personnel, outsourcing, and other resources that allow them to operate more efficiently while improving the quality and breadth of the client experience. Advisors face expanding client expectations while still having a finite amount of time. Michael Kim argues that creating capacity through outsourcing, technology, AI, and delegation allows advisors to spend more time on client relationships and the activities that have the greatest impact on growth. He emphasizes intentionality, planning, creativity, and consistent execution. Rather than treating growth as something that happens naturally through referrals, successful firms make it an ongoing business priority. Outsourcing can shift research, portfolio management, trading, reporting, technology, and other functions to providers with greater scale. Michael says AssetMark’s Annual Impact of Outsourcing Survey found that advisors who outsource gain more than nine hours per week. AssetMark is embedding AI into advisor workflows with the goal of improving productivity and client experience. Michael discusses Talk Tracks, a capability designed to surface relevant client insights and potential planning conversations before meetings. Michael does not believe it will. Instead, he expects clients to use AI themselves and arrive at advisor meetings better informed. That could make an advisor’s ability to provide trusted, personal, emotionally connected guidance even more valuable. Michael describes scale as more than lowering costs. Firms can invest in technology, specialized personnel, outsourcing, and other resources that allow them to operate more efficiently while improving the quality and breadth of the client experience. Related Resources When Growth Starts Working Against Your Business The RIA Builder’s Blueprint: Four Pillars of a Strong Independent Firm Michael KimChief Executive Officer and President of AssetMark With more than 30 years of industry experience, he has set the strategic vision for the firm, which encompasses AssetMark’s platform of curated investments, technology solutions, business consulting, operations support, and M&A that serve the best interests of financial advisors and their investors. Michael joined AssetMark in 2010 and has held a number of leadership positions, including Head of National Sales and Consulting, Chief Client Officer, and President / CEO (2021–Present). Michael was instrumental during AssetMark’s leveraged buyout transition to Genstar in 2013, its sale to Huatai Securities in 2016, its IPO in 2019, and its sale to GTCR in 2024. Before joining AssetMark, Michael was an executive at Fidelity’s Institutional Wealth Services, serving over 3,000 advisory firms. He began his career in public accounting at Coopers & Lybrand, LLC. Michael received his Bachelor of Arts in Economics from the University of California, Los Angeles. NOTE: The views and opinions expressed by the guests on this podcast are their own and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of Diamond Consultants. Neither Diamond Consultants nor the guests on this podcast are compensated in any way for their participation. View the transcript of this episode… Unleashing Potential: Why Capacity is an Advisor’s Biggest Competitive Advantage A conversation with Jason Diamond and Michael Kim, CEO & President of AssetMark. Jason Diamond: Welcome to the latest episode of our podcast series for financial advisors. Today’s episode is Unleashing Potential: Why Capacity Is an Advisor’s Biggest Competitive Advantage. It’s a conversation with Michael Kim, the CEO and president of AssetMark. I’m Jason Diamond, and this is The Diamond Podcast for Financial Advisors. Mindy Diamond: At Diamond Consultants, we help elite advisors identify the right environment for their businesses to thrive, whether that’s at a wirehouse, boutique, or independent firm. With nearly three decades of experience, we’ve guided thousands of advisors and represented more than a quarter of a trillion dollars in assets transitioned. And each year, one in four advisors managing a billion dollars or more who change firms are our clients. Our process is education-driven and based on building relationships, starting as your strategic partner well before you’re even thinking of a move. To schedule a confidential conversation, call us at 908-879-1002. Wondering why advisors change firms and where they’re headed? Are transition deals going up or down? Those very questions and more inspired us to create our annual advisor transition report. It’s the award-winning data-driven resource designed for advisors that connects the dots between the motivations around movement and the firm’s appetite for top talent. Arm yourself with the knowledge you need to make smart decisions. Download your copy at diamond-consultants.com/transitionreport. Jason Diamond: One of the biggest challenges facing advisory firms today isn’t finding more opportunities, it’s creating enough capacity to pursue them. For years, advisors have tried to solve that problem by working harder, adding staff, or becoming more efficient. Today, technology, outsourcing, and AI are creating an entirely different playbook. The question isn’t simply how to do more, it’s how to spend more time doing things that actually matter. That’s why I’m excited to welcome Michael Kim to the podcast. Michael is CEO and president of AssetMark. Founded in 1996, it provides some 12,000 independent advisors and registered investment advisors, RIAs, with outsourced investment strategies, AI tools, and digital workflows, custodial integration, and practice management consulting. Over the last 16 years, he’s had a front row seat to the evolution of independent wealth management and has developed a reputation as what many know him as the growth guy. And Michael’s perspective is a practical one. He doesn’t think about growth as simply gathering more assets or acquiring more firms, he sees it as building an intentional business, one where advisors spend more time where they add the greatest value while leveraging technology, outsourcing and AI to expand their capacity without losing sight of what matters most, delivering an exceptional client experience. Our conversation covers where advisors should and shouldn’t be spending their time, why organic growth remains the best measure of a healthy business, how AI can strengthen rather than replace client relationships, and why the advisors who thrive over the next decade may look much more like CEOs than portfolio managers. I think you’ll come away with a different way of approaching growth, and perhaps more importantly what it actually takes to achieve it. So, let’s dive in. Michael, thanks again for joining us. Before we dive into the business, let’s talk about the personal. Tell us about your background, what brought you to the world of wealth management. Michael Kim: Yeah, first of all, Jason, thrilled to be here. Thank you for having me, I’m looking forward to our conversation. My goodness, what brought me to this industry? There’s several reasons. First and foremost, I love working with other people and specifically in a position where we can help others. How fortunate are we, Jason, where we get to work with, in my opinion, the best financial advisors where their core mission is to help others, and specifically helping their clients’ goals and dreams come true, and we get to be part of that? And just for me to be and our teams to be part of that, that is just humbling and exciting. That’s one of the big reasons. Let’s see, I love working with the business owners and entrepreneurs. I have a little bit of entrepreneurial gene, both of my parents are entrepreneurs as well. So Jason, I know you could appreciate that. Working with entrepreneurs, and for me it is all about relationships. Really being able to build deep, personal, professional relationships where we can learn off of each other, help each other, and really do good for clients, the community, and the industry. My goodness, what a perfect industry to be in. I mean, those are just some of the reasons that brought me to this great place. I’ve been with AssetMark for, gosh, now 16 years. Just still feels like day number one here, Jason, but I know we’ll get into a lot more details, but so many different things that have brought me here to this industry. Jason Diamond: Wow, 16 years. I definitely want to double click into that. I’m sure you’ve seen the firm evolve a lot. By the way, I feel like you feel, what a blessing and what an amazing industry. Of all the industries in the world and of all the kind of verticals and niches, I just think it’s such an incredible, not only industry, but an incredible time in our industry. Part of that is the proliferation of choice for advisors, and how many different ways there are for an advisor to run a sophisticated, successful, entrepreneurial business. No matter what that could mean within a wirehouse, by the way. I don’t mean that to mean independent. So, I want to talk about all of that. I think your perspective is unique. Whole career at AssetMark or did you start elsewhere? That’s the last question we’ll ask on background. Michael Kim: Yeah, so like I said, 16 years here at AssetMark, and I’ve had pretty much all the different leadership responsibilities here. I became president and CEO a few years ago. The other interesting part of my journey here at AssetMark is over that 16-year period, Jason, five different owners. My goodness, five different sort of capital providers and owners and investors coming into the business. We’ve had the fortune of working with large strategic firms to great private equity firms. We even took the company public, so we did the whole New York Stock Exchange, ringing the bell and the whole nine yards. And in 2024, we took the company private again, and we’re just super excited. Our current owner is GTCR, just incredible private equity investors, partners, friends. And we’ve actually known those guys for a number of years before the deal. And through series of different conversations, it was just the right fit. And we’ve been with them for over two years now, and I just feel like we’re just barely scratch the surface, Jason, in terms of all the different things that we can do with them. And let’s see, prior to AssetMark, I was with Fidelity, we were talking a little earlier, and that’s where I cut my teeth. And I had a chance to work with RIA firms, I was managing all the RIA wealth management relationships at Fidelity for a number of years, spent a big portion of my Fidelity tenure in Boston, as all roads go through Boston for Fidelity. Jason Diamond: We’re going Boston, baby. Michael Kim: Exactly. And Jason, you know what’s really interesting is I started with Fidelity back in the late ’90s, and back then, my goodness, people really didn’t know the RIA industry. We’d have to remind them it’s RIA, not IRA, that whole nine yards. And it’s just really special to see the RIA and the independent industry just grow to what it is today and just really making that impact to the clients. I know we’ll dig into a lot more of those details. And then actually prior to Fidelity, I’m a CPA by training. So, I’m a recovering CPA, as I like to say, and no accounting jokes, Jason, today here. All right? Jason Diamond: I didn’t prepare any. No promises though. A couple things I want to ask you about. First of all, position the positives of the various owners you’ve had. That sounds also though potentially disruptive, 5 different owners in 15 years. Thoughts on that? And then, the other thing is not a question, more of a compliment. I always think people of Fidelity Schwab in the ’90s, early 2000s, part of me feels like you must want to say a little bit like, “I told you so. We were right about this call and this movement.” So, if you want to use this platform to do so, you’re welcome to. Michael Kim: Well, it’s funny, I’ll take the second part of the question first. It is interesting just reflecting back on the earlier days of the RIA industry. Back in the ’90s, I mean, it was such a cottage industry. Most of our time was really spent on educating not just advisors but other players in the industry about what it means to be an independent, trusted, fiduciary advisor to the clients. And again, in this day and age, Jason, I mean that is just part of our everyday vernacular. Jason Diamond: You take that for granted. Michael Kim: Exactly. But back then, educating the advisor that, yes, they get to control their own destiny and they get to own the economics. And most importantly, they get to really control the client experience and helping that client really fulfill their goals and dreams and the outcomes that they’ve been working together on. And so, really having that type of both a advisory discussion but also a business discussion, it’s just been super fulfilling. And I too have learned quite a bit just in terms of what it means to be both a business owner and an advisor. But that’s one of the big things that we’ve all experienced, especially in the earlier days and as this industry continues to mature. Even back then, Jason, I saw the potential and it was interesting. I remember thinking to myself, “My goodness,” not just the wires and the banks and other brokerage firms, but really again, going back to the benefit to the end client, that investor to have that trusted advisor where there was no conflict, that advisor was sitting on the same side of the table as himself and really doing what was clearly in the best interest of the client. Again, today it’s part of our DNA, part of what we talk about, but back then it was a newer concept. And so, we just feel very humble to have been part of that in the early days. I think your first question was about the different series of owners and investors that we’ve had. And again, as I reflect back on this, Jason, five different firms. We had a life insurance company, we had private equity, actually two different PE firms come together for joint ownership. We actually had a foreign brokerage firm that owned us for a number of years, and then also the being publicly traded and now being private again. My view, Jason, is that every type of capital structure, there’s pros and cons, but two things that I want to just maybe share with you and your audience is that first and foremost, regardless of the capital structure, it really is incumbent on the management team to do what’s in the best interest of the client. Again, it’s a no-brainer, but really reminding your teams that do always do what’s in the best interest of the client, and then you execute to the T and the rest should usually take care of itself, number one. And then number two, what we’ve learned is never forget about the culture of your firm. Regardless of, again, the capital structure and the type of priorities that different owners, investors ask you to focus on, absolutely those are important business priorities, but none of that would be possible, Jason, without the right culture, and really all the different employees and colleagues and teammates growing in the same direction, Jason. And again, we’ll get into a lot more because there’s actually a great level of parallel in terms of the lessons that we learn to what we’re seeing in the advisor community as they’re operating their own businesses. So, I know we’ll unpack a lot of that, but those are just some of the themes that I recall as I think about our journey here. Jason Diamond: That’s a really thoughtful answer, thank you. I want to ask you a question on clarifying. You used the term clients. When you think about your clients, you are talking about financial advisors who in turn are serving their end clients. Is that correct? Michael Kim: That’s right. Jason Diamond: Let’s talk about this. You’ve worked with, whether it’s Fidelity or now the last 16 years I would imagine thousands of advisors, probably mostly independent advisors. And growth, at least today is the number one thing in our conversations that comes up of advisors that want to grow. What do you think separates advisors who are able to grow from those who are not, or are less effective at it? Michael Kim: Yeah, great question. So just by the way, context, today at AssetMark we work with over 12,000 individual financial advisors, and at Fidelity, thousands of independent RIA firms. And so, we’ve been very fortunate to have seen, Jason, a lot of different models and best practices. And to your point about growth- Jason Diamond: And worst practices. Michael Kim: Well, we’ll keep it best practices here, and lots of incredible lessons learned as well. Jason, what’s interesting is I think one of the common threads that we see in the most successfully growth-oriented firms has been the advisors and their teams are intentional about growth. And what I mean by that is growth isn’t something that the advisors do as a hobby. It is arguably the number one priority. In fact, we have a saying here at AssetMark that growth is life. And if you’re not growing, you’re dead. So, a big part of the focus is, okay, how do we put the right plan together? A simple thing like a marketing plan. I mean, Jason, it is amazing the opportunity that we have to help advisors really craft their own marketing narrative and the unique capabilities that they bring. So, let’s talk about it and let’s figure out ways to leverage that secret sauce to drive referrals and other new opportunities. And so, really having that intentional focus starting with a marketing plan. And to me, I always suggest to our advisors that let’s get creative. Let’s not try to do the same old things and keep banging our head against the wall. Let’s try new things, let’s learn from it, let’s fine-tune it. I mean, things like digital leads and really leveraging the social media aspect. Most advisors still are not, I would say comfortable or confident in leveraging the digital platforms or different channels. To me, this is a huge opportunity for advisors, for other enterprises to leverage the digital platforms to get their word out and really leverage that in a way to drive new opportunities. And then the third is execution. My goodness, you can get creative, you can have all kinds of great marketing strategies, but if you’re not executing and doing the things that you say you’re going to do, and do it right and do it again the next day, it’s all for show. And so, we always talk about how do we help our advisors come up with the best marketing strategy, get creative in some of those ideas, and then let’s go roll up our sleeves and let’s go execute, let’s really bring those great ideas to reality, and let’s figure out a way to fine-tune it, sharpen it, do it better, and the next day do it all over again. And just being intentional, Jason, to sum it all up, I think is a huge part of what growth is all about. And I guess last thing I’ll mention here is, Jason, you know this, but I just can’t stress this enough. Organic growth is the number one predictor of the health of the business. I’m speaking from experience. I mean, the five different owners and the capital provider changes that we’ve experienced, one of the key things that they’ve always asked for and we’ve demonstrated in the early parts of our conversations is our ability to grow the business. That organic growth, again, it is a huge part of that strategic business consideration. Jason Diamond: Well, I totally agree with that. There’s an element of organic growth is probably the number one predictor of a healthy, vibrant business. And also to your point, because some advisors say, “Okay, great. Who cares? My business is good enough for me.” But to your point, a buyer cares about it so it impacts valuation as well. You gave a really thoughtful answer as to the question of growth and intentionality around growth, I maybe should have started here. Your answer was broader than I maybe expected, so give us the elevator pitch for AssetMark. What does your company do? Michael Kim: Yeah, so at AssetMark we are in the business of serving independent financial advisors as the premier wealth platform. We focus on delivering the best investment experience with the most integrated digital technology and the most personalized service and experience. The last thing that we always talk about is really the community of like-minded advisors that we support. As I mentioned, we are fortunate to serve over 12,000 plus individual financial advisors in the independent space. And we talk a lot about community. And the reason for that, Jason, is in many cases the advisors are out there on the island to themselves and they are wondering about things like growth. And so, what we try to bring in is really a lot of the peer-to-peer type of learning, opportunity for different advisors to connect with one another, learn from each other, and really sharpen their value proposition or their narrative. And so that community aspect, it is something special. And we actually have many advisors, Jason, where it’s the third generation advisor that have been working with AssetMark that have been connecting with one another. When you go to some of our conferences and events, I always like to say it is the industry’s largest study group out there. And so, we get to be part of that and we get to host that. And so anyway, that’s a little bit about the AssetMark store, we are in business of serving independent financial advisors. Jason Diamond: I think there’s a lot of different elements of that value prop that we can talk about, but the one that I think is probably most closely associated in the market is investment management. Let’s talk about investment management, or more specifically the idea of outsourcing investment management to somebody else. Because especially for wirehouse advisors, I think there’s this perception, real or not, that’s a core part of what an advisor does. And I’ve seen the statistics, I know that most advisors are not particularly good at investment management, but they’ve sold their clients on this is a part of what we do for you, financial planning, investment management, and the like. So, what say you? What are your thoughts on the idea that investment management has to be a part of the core financial advisor experience? Michael Kim: Yeah. No, totally get it. And I mean, we have thousands and thousands of conversations about this very issue. And Jason, you’re right. I mean, so many advisors believe that their value to their clients is about building the best 60/40 balance portfolio. And with all that in mind, in this day and age with technology and really accessibility to the different investment products and strategies, what advisors have to realize is that the most important thing that the clients want from that advisor is the advisor, not the portfolio or which ETF that they selected. The number one thing, and this is based on the most recent spectrum survey, the number one thing that particularly the higher net worth investors, what they ask and what they expect from their advisors isn’t a investment product or a portfolio design, it’s actually advice on taxes and wealth transfer. Think about that. They want to know how that advisor is going to help them optimize their taxes, they want to know how the wealth that they worked so hard their entire life, how that’s going to be passed on in the most tax-efficient and the most consistent way, consistent with their goals and objectives to their adult children, et cetera. And so, part of I think the new age perspective has to be that the advisor really positioning themselves as that trusted, holistic advisor. A wealth counselor is really the term that I like to use. As a wealth counselor, yes, investment management is an important part, but it’s one of number of different components that the clients are expecting. And Jason, when I think about the more successful advisors in our ecosystem, they’re leading with taxes, they’re leading with creating trust for their grandchildren, they’re leading with creating family LLCs and how all of that fits into the broader picture. Because in this day and age of creating a good 60/40 portfolio, I think those are table stakes at this point. And so, a big part of this is how do we help the advisors really broaden their expertise so that they feel confident in talking about these other array of services? Frankly, these services that their clients are expecting and demanding that their advisors deliver. And last thing I’ll mention is here’s the cold harsh reality. If that advisor isn’t delivering those types of services, especially to that next gen client, guess what? That next gen client who’s about to inherit a lot of the wealth from their parents and so forth, they’re probably looking and in conversations with other advisors as well. And so, we just want to ensure that there’s a longevity of the client relationships by helping that advisor deliver a full array of the wealth planning capabilities. You could tell I’m pretty passionate about this, Jason, I can go on, but yeah, this is a very important part of one of the key developments that we’re seeing in the industry. Jason Diamond: I could tell I’m not the first person to ask you, I wouldn’t have expected that I’d be the first person to ask you this. It was a very thoughtful answer. I think part of what you’re saying is because advisors need to deliver so much, probably more than ever, because a lot of what you’re describing is table stakes, outsourcing investment management is the only way to get there. It’s a zero-sum game, you have finite amount of time, and what your clients are saying is they want more of you. So, by giving up some of what’s table stakes into a more systematic kind of process, you’re able to do more. Is that a fair summary? Michael Kim: Absolutely, and you hit the nail on the head. I mean, it is all about time management and capacity. Yes, the advisors can do anything, but they can’t do everything. And so, what they have to really make a strategic decision on is what are the activities that will generate the highest level of impact to the clients, and frankly to their business? And so, delegate and outsource the other activities, whether it be research, portfolio management, trading, reporting, technology, et cetera, to a provider that has the scale and really delivering those types of capabilities so that advisor can spend the extra time with a client. And just one last unique stat or insight to share. We do a survey every year, Jason, and I would be happy to make this study available to your audience. It’s called Annual Impact of Outsourcing Survey, and it measures the amount of extra time created by those advisors who’ve made a conscious decision to outsource. This year it’s over nine hours per week. So, think about that. Nine extra hours per week today. And so, that’s like having an extra day in a week plus. And so, that’s just an example of the type of capacity that outsourcing creates. The other important benefit to this is not just freeing up time and creating capacity, but now you get to deliver other experts and other resources to your clients, and you get to be, you meaning the advisor, becomes really the quarterback for all those different experts that are serving that client relationships. And so again, it’s something that we believe is fundamental. We absolutely believe that’s going to be a key part that will fuel the advisor’s growth going forward as well. Jason Diamond: So it’s a perfect segue, because I agree. The capacity conversation, it comes up over and over again. In fact, one of the ways it manifests itself is obviously as a recruiter, we hear about movement and it becomes a catalyst for movement. Like, “Hey, I’m spending all my time doing the wrong things and I need to spend more time doing XYZ.” The other thing that comes to mind when we think about capacity, yes, I hear you, outsourcing. There’s clearly elements like compliance. Yeah, you don’t need to be doing that yourself, you can outsource that. But what about AI would be the other obvious way to me that advisors can force multiply themselves? Give me your thoughts on A, what are you guys doing in this space? And then B, what are your thoughts just on the impact on the wealth management industry at large? Michael Kim: Yeah, great question. You can’t have a podcast or any conversation this day and age without AI, right? Jason Diamond: No. You knew it was coming, sorry. Michael Kim: No, this is great. And look, I mean, personally I believe that AI is going to change everything. Now, what does that really mean? Two areas that we think a lot about both internally at AssetMark, but also what we believe we can expect to see in the industry. Number one, it’s all about productivity. And then number two, it’s about experience. So, how do we think about positioning AI, leveraging AI to improve productivity, and more importantly, delivering even a better experience? And so, internally at AssetMark, we’re doing all the different things in terms of all of our Zoom meetings, the virtual meetings, the note-taking and so forth. To me, again, those are table stakes now. And advisors themselves as well, as they’re having these types of meetings, using all the usual products in the industry that we’re all very familiar with, making sure that is a core part of, I guess the workflow to really streamline and expedite the follow-up process, the notes and summaries of the conversations. A specific example, one of the things that we launched is really around Slack, our enterprise level for ChatGPT and so forth. Again, it is just something that is accelerating the pace of business internally at AssetMark. From an experience point of view, Jason, oh my goodness, we can go on and on on this. At AssetMark, a big part of what we think about is how do we embed AI into the workflow so that it’s just regular part of how we do things as opposed to going somewhere, maybe figuring out how to work with an agent and this and that? We are in the process of launching a new capability called Talk Tracks. And so, this is actually for advisors. So, an advisor who taps into our website right before a client meeting, we will literally create talk tracks for that advisor on what are some of the insights that they should share with their client on their portfolio? Maybe they should be taking a required minimum distribution. Maybe they should be thinking about opening up a 529 because they have grandchildren, or maybe they should be doing some other planning activities. The point is it uses AI to gather the different data points, not just from the client but really just scouring the entire industry and other clients with similar profiles, and bringing in different suggestions literally as bullet point talk points for the advisor. And just based on early feedback, man, Jason, this is like our advisors love it. I mean, our advisors are saying that program alone, Talk Tracks, has really saved about two hours per day, because normally they would have to figure out the talking points for the upcoming meeting, and we will be doing all of that for that advisor. And so again, we believe that productivity will be super enhanced. And then the experience is, to me, that is where the gold mine is in terms of opportunities for AI to contribute. And last thing I’ll mention here, you and I, we often get the question of, “Okay, what does this mean for advisors? Will AI replace advisors and so forth?” No, because investors, at the end of the day they want that emotional security of knowing that they’re going to be okay. Now having said that, I do believe that advisors need to change how they engage with their clients, because that client is going to be coming into that meeting with the advisor having done their research, having asked their best friend ChatGPT about what to expect in that upcoming meeting. It’s very analogous to, I don’t know about you, but if I go see my doctor, I go to WebMD and I’m asking WebMD, “Okay, what should I be thinking about? These are my symptoms,” et cetera, so that I can actually have a much more intelligent, impactful conversation with my physician. I don’t see anything different in that the clients, the end clients will come in with some level of preliminary research, virtual conversation with their friend Chat, and then that allows that engagement with their trusted advisor to be that much It’s more meaningful. And so, I absolutely believe that it will really enhance the client experience provided that the advisors are prepared for this type of a change in the industry. Jason Diamond: And that’s an interesting spin, the idea that clients themselves will use the tool to get better educated, to basically become better clients for advisors. One thing that comes to mind with some of your talk points, I think it’s a brilliant idea. I think it’s clearly another obvious example of capacity saver. Do you think there’s a risk with that and with just AI tools in general of depersonalizing the relationship and just almost making things a little bit cookie cutter? I’ll tell you what comes to mind for me is I can tell in some cases when I get an AI email, and it makes me cringe. I’m not even talking about a spam email, I’m talking about an email that somebody tried to write to me but they used AI as a way to basically write me three paragraphs. So, give me your thoughts on is there a risk here that this just becomes this really depersonalized experience? Michael Kim: Absolutely, I do think that there’s that risk there. I do believe that it’s actually happening already. If you think about just the basics of portfolio construction and just different investment vehicles, whether it’s an ETF fund, security, what have you, chances are that advisor will come into that meeting having done some research and they may know or be more familiar with the underlying vehicles than the past generation. So, the advisors who’s hanging their hat on portfolio construction, that 60/40 balance portfolio that I alluded to earlier as really the reason why that client should be working with them, that is going to be a very non-personal or less personal relationship. Now, imagine even with AI though, that the advisor has cracked a code on how to humanize that engagement and really deliver much more of an emotionally connected experience. That’s where I think the advisors will have an opportunity to really elevate. So as I said earlier, think about those advisors that have not only built really a durable portfolio to help that client achieve their portfolio goals, but wrapping that with tax planning, wrapping that with family planning or estate planning, and really being that first call that the clients make in the event of something, something happens, that’s where the real emotions come in. And part of it is this evolution that the advisors are on where Jason, you know this better than I do, in the past they were brokers and now recently they were more the investment portfolio managers. And then really going forward it’s about how do they deliver that real deeply personal and that trusted engagement about wealth transfer, about tax management, about business exit planning if they’re business owners. And really those are the moments where the advisors will not only earn their keep, but elevate themselves from rest of the pack. I absolutely believe that this evolution and the opportunity that frankly AI and other developments are catalyzing, if positioned properly the advisors can benefit from this type of a change in an incredible way. Jason Diamond: I think there’s tremendous opportunity for advisors that harness this the right way. It brings me to an interesting question. I don’t think everybody who listens to our show is contemplating change or making a change of firms, but certainly there’s a subset of advisors who are at least curious. And technology is one area. It always comes up. I wonder, advisors don’t know what they don’t know in this realm. So, I think about a wirehouse advisor who’s been conditioned to think that the sandbox is the sandbox and it works well enough, and it probably does. They can service clients within that sandbox. So, how is that wirehouse advisor supposed to think about this new world that you’re talking about where he doesn’t even know the right questions to ask because it’s so completely foreign? Michael Kim: It’s such a great question, and it’s an important question that all advisors, particularly ones that are in a wirehouse or captive type of environment should be asking. And I think if you double click that question, it’s about how do they become even a better trusted advisor to their clients? Number one. And then number two, could they also build their own business as well? Meaning could they become a business owner or entrepreneur and control their own destiny? And to me, as we were talking earlier about the growth of the independent space, the independent, the industry is, I mean, this is where these two themes are hitting the road. One of the biggest opportunities that I see is for advisors to not only fulfill the goals and dreams of their end clients, but actually for themselves and for their office mates and for their colleagues as well. Why not? Why not create their own entity that they can control, and really control their own destiny in terms of the desired business outcomes? Now to your point, most advisors don’t know how to really plug in a CRM with a financial planning, with a portfolio management system and how all those things work. And compliance, you mentioned that earlier is such an important part. So, the big thing is how does that advisor continue to focus first and foremost on their clients, but bringing in outsource partners that can help them deliver to this fully integrated tech stack, this workflow that will actually create a better experience for their team, but also for their clients as well? And then growth. How do they really think about growth within the firm, but also leveraging outside experts like AssetMark and others to really get that next high net worth client? And so, the point is the advisor shouldn’t feel like they have to do all of this work on their own. Really leverage the different experts that are out there. And Jason, I mean, you know exactly all the different things that wirehouse advisors should do as they’re contemplating different affiliation models. Similarly, if the advisor is looking for that easy button on investments, or technology, or growth or what have you, leverage the different industry experts out there that are in the business of helping advisors achieve those goals. So, it’s one of those things where it may feel daunting initially, but really the opportunity that we have is to educate those advisors and share with them on how we can really help their business goals come true as well. Jason Diamond: Yeah, it’s a good answer. To me, there’s two ways to think about the Kitces map, if you will, of the massive ecosystem. On the one hand, it’s overwhelming and daunting. But on the other hand, you mentioned the term cottage industry. Think about how far from a FinTech perspective and an investment tech perspective, and just a wealth management tech perspective the industry has come where it’s a blessing that all of these different solutions exist. And also, part and parcel to all these solutions is there’s a lot of different education solutions out there also. So, I think that’s the number one takeaway is advisors not feeling like they need to do this alone because there are so many different options. I think your lens into this is unique given the number of advisors, that you need literally thousands of advisors. So, we spoke about AI, we spoke about this outsourcing. What is another maybe trend or something you’re keeping your eye on, or something you’re hearing from your advisors that our audience might not be aware of? Give us a preview. Michael Kim: Yeah. So for me, I’m a growth guy, Jason, and I always come back to growth. And the number one, I think about the organic growth aspect. And we can spend hours on this, but probably two things that I just want to share with your audience. Organic growth, not only is it the best measure on the health and really the durability of the business, but it also is really like the north star. It should be the north star of any business. I mean, new clients is a lifeblood of any business out there. And so, part of being a business owner means thinking strategically about how do I continue to lead this new teammates and the new firm to ensure that there’s continuous pipeline of new clients coming in for all the different reasons that we talked about. Number two, have a plan. I know it sounds simple, but have a plan. And there are people like yourselves and our firm and others that can help. When I think about what does that plan should entail, just start with existing clients. How do I help retain and grow my existing clients? And then number two, how do I get a few more new clients? And that could be referrals, that could be other lead generation programs, but just really put those thoughts on paper. Anyway, so organic growth. And then, on the inorganic growth side, this is, Jason, where there’s just so much activity and here’s the best part. I still feel like, Jason, we are in the bottom of first inning of this massive pace of not just consolidation, but really the growth of this independent segment. Experts like yourselves and others that are helping the wire or others, advisors in other ecosystems come in to this independent space. Succession, we haven’t talked about that today, but succession I think is going to be a massive tailwind behind many of these consolidations. And then the third thing that I’ll mention is the access to capital. I heard someone say the other day that capital is commodity. Before, that was the key thing that was either a catalyst or maybe a headwind for this type of inorganic growth. Today, capital is somewhat of a commodity. And so, there’s so many different PE investors or institutional firms that are coming into this space. And so, part of it is to really thinking about what your right target audience is and how your structure and your strategy is going to be different than the guy next door and making sure that you execute. And the capital will be there. Believe me, the capital will be there. And I just think, Jason, that the inorganic growth opportunity is going to continue to accelerate in this space here. Jason Diamond: There’s PE money coming into the space? I hadn’t heard that before. Michael Kim: Yeah, it’s maybe one or two. Jason Diamond: Let me ask you a few follow-ups there. I think that the tie-in there, the thing that people might be worried about then would be decompression, whether it’s because firms need to just spend more because advisor needs, whatever the case may be. Do you think that it’s the same playbook for advisors to avoid that? Lean into AI tools, lean into things like outsourcing, lean into M&A inorganic, things like that? Or is there more to it? Or is this just something that you don’t worry about at all? Michael Kim: No, I mean, we worry, we study, we keep a very close eye on the fee trends out there. And there is always pressure on the fees, and I think it’s healthy that there’s pressure on the fees. I think a big part of when we talk about fees, the other word that is synonymous with the fee compression is scale. Are we able to scale? Are the advisors able to scale in terms of their delivery mechanisms and their operations? And so, what scale means is being … Doesn’t necessarily mean cutting expenses and doing it with lower costs. To me, it is thinking more strategically about are there areas in terms of different technology that we can invest in so that over time we can deliver even a better experience in a more scaled way? Are there personnel that we can bring in to the firm that can bring a certain level of expertise that will help us take the business and the client experience to the next level? And so, there’s many different ways to scale it, but decompression is synonymous with scale. And so, as a business owner, which now advisors are both trusted advisors but also business owners, they should be thinking a lot more about how they can scale their operation. We at AssetMark, we have over 1,100 employees and we’re expecting to grow at least 20% year over year. And our view is how do we leverage AI? How do we leverage technology? How do we leverage some of the offshore contractors and other scale levers to make sure that we’re doing it without creating additional fee pressure, economic pressure to ourselves and to our clients? And so, it’s always a fun exercise to go through. We’re actually starting a planning process already, but scale aspect, Jason, is an important part of this conversation. Jason Diamond: Good answer, yep. All right, two more. I’m going to give you a fun one here. I’m giving you a lateral, I don’t know if this is a demotion, but let’s say you’re hypothetically you’re now CEO of a small to medium-sized independent firm, an RIA. You’ve got capital. To your point, capital is somewhat easy to come by. Here are your choices. A, you explore M&A, go buy a business right now. B, trip to Hawaii for all the founders. Or C, is there some business reinvestment that excites you that you think businesses should be doing? Michael Kim: That trip to Hawaii is very enticing, but when I think about the opportunity as a leader of the firm, call me a little bit of old-fashioned here but I go back to our existing clients as the number one place of investments. For me, we can do all kinds of really fun, sexy things, but if we don’t take care of our current base of clients, everything falls apart. And so, first and foremost, how do we take care of our clients? And for me, what that really means is how do we deliver the best service experience? At AssetMark, one of the key things that we are maniacal about is how do we continue to be known as the easiest place to do business for advisors? Similarly, for an advisory firm and the leaders of that advisory firm, I would submit that they should be thinking about how do they serve their clients so that the clients view that firm as the firm that all clients should be working with. And generally we think a lot about that day-to-day experience, delighting that client, that unexpected delight. I mean, my God, things like that. It doesn’t cost a lot, but it goes so far in terms of just really strengthening that experience. So that is, to me, the foundation. And after that, I also want to invest in additional organic growth capabilities. I think things like retirement is an incredibly underserved market. It is one of the largest segments of our wealth space, but arguably one of the more underserved markets. Jason Diamond: It’s not the sexiest space. Michael Kim: It’s not the sexiest, but it is an important … I mean, retirement is important, Jason. So we at AssetMark, we recently launched our self-directed brokerage program, and this is really opportunity for advisors to tap into the 401k accounts. It’s almost like a pre-rollover type of strategy, but that’s an example where we believe that there’s tons of opportunities even for advisors to serve their clients. And then, with whatever’s left in the checkbook, we love to look at the right advisors that we can potentially tuck into that firm and really branch out in terms of our presence. So, those are just some of the things that I think we would prioritize with some of the extra capital that may be coming into it. Jason Diamond: You’re hired. Michael Kim: And then we take that trip to Hawaii. Jason Diamond: Time for one more, this has been fantastic. I really appreciate the wisdom you’ve shared. Let’s fast-forward now 10 years. What are you hoping that people are saying about AssetMark and the role you’ve played in helping advisors to build businesses? And let’s go beyond just from a portfolio management, investment management perspective. Michael Kim: Yeah. As we look forward, and we actually have these types of conversations as part of our strategic planning session, let’s just say 10 years from now, what we want to be known as really that premier wealth platform, a business partner, a trusted business partner, a friend that advisors will view as a partner that helped them achieve their business goals. Meaning, let’s just say a wirehouse advisor who decided to come into the independent space, we were the firm that really helped them serve their clients better through our investments, digital and service, and then really help them grow to that next level. And so, we want to be known as a premier wealth platform that has really propelled the growth of the independent advisory firms to levels that they would not have been able to do on their own. And by the way, have some fun along the way. So have some fun, really be part of that special AssetMark community, that community of like-minded advisors by really helping that advisory firm achieve their strategic growth objectives. I hope that, Jason, with all of our employees, 1,100 employees coming in every day, our mission is to make a difference in the lives of our advisors and their clients, and I hope that we’re fulfilling that mission. I hope that we are working hard in 10 years as we are now, delivering on that promise and really making that impact each and every day for our valued advisors. Jason Diamond: I have no doubt you will. Thank you so much, Michael. This has been an absolute blast. Appreciate you coming on. Michael Kim: Thank you, Jason. That was a lot of fun. Mindy Diamond: As a financial advisor, you hold yourself to the highest standards of integrity, honesty, and credibility. You are successful because you take your professional responsibilities seriously, and are dedicated to your clients. But are you living your best business life? Are your goals aligned with your firms, or could a better option exist? Should I Stay or Should I Go? is a book written with you in mind. It’s a self-guided journey that walks you through the key steps that we take with our advisor clients. This strategic thought process and roadmap to professional self-discovery is designed to help you ask the right questions, and think critically and objectively, whether you’re considering change or not. Learn how to get your copy at diamond-consultants.com/thebook. Unleashing Potential: Why Capacity is an Advisor’s Biggest Competitive Advantage A conversation with Jason Diamond and Michael Kim, CEO & President of AssetMark. Jason Diamond: Welcome to the latest episode of our podcast series for financial advisors. Today’s episode is Unleashing Potential: Why Capacity Is an Advisor’s Biggest Competitive Advantage. It’s a conversation with Michael Kim, the CEO and president of AssetMark. I’m Jason Diamond, and this is The Diamond Podcast for Financial Advisors. Mindy Diamond: At Diamond Consultants, we help elite advisors identify the right environment for their businesses to thrive, whether that’s at a wirehouse, boutique, or independent firm. With nearly three decades of experience, we’ve guided thousands of advisors and represented more than a quarter of a trillion dollars in assets transitioned. And each year, one in four advisors managing a billion dollars or more who change firms are our clients. Our process is education-driven and based on building relationships, starting as your strategic partner well before you’re even thinking of a move. To schedule a confidential conversation, call us at 908-879-1002. Wondering why advisors change firms and where they’re headed? Are transition deals going up or down? Those very questions and more inspired us to create our annual advisor transition report. It’s the award-winning data-driven resource designed for advisors that connects the dots between the motivations around movement and the firm’s appetite for top talent. Arm yourself with the knowledge you need to make smart decisions. Download your copy at diamond-consultants.com/transitionreport. Jason Diamond: One of the biggest challenges facing advisory firms today isn’t finding more opportunities, it’s creating enough capacity to pursue them. For years, advisors have tried to solve that problem by working harder, adding staff, or becoming more efficient. Today, technology, outsourcing, and AI are creating an entirely different playbook. The question isn’t simply how to do more, it’s how to spend more time doing things that actually matter. That’s why I’m excited to welcome Michael Kim to the podcast. Michael is CEO and president of AssetMark. Founded in 1996, it provides some 12,000 independent advisors and registered investment advisors, RIAs, with outsourced investment strategies, AI tools, and digital workflows, custodial integration, and practice management consulting. Over the last 16 years, he’s had a front row seat to the evolution of independent wealth management and has developed a reputation as what many know him as the growth guy. And Michael’s perspective is a practical one. He doesn’t think about growth as simply gathering more assets or acquiring more firms, he sees it as building an intentional business, one where advisors spend more time where they add the greatest value while leveraging technology, outsourcing and AI to expand their capacity without losing sight of what matters most, delivering an exceptional client experience. Our conversation covers where advisors should and shouldn’t be spending their time, why organic growth remains the best measure of a healthy business, how AI can strengthen rather than replace client relationships, and why the advisors who thrive over the next decade may look much more like CEOs than portfolio managers. I think you’ll come away with a different way of approaching growth, and perhaps more importantly what it actually takes to achieve it. So, let’s dive in. Michael, thanks again for joining us. Before we dive into the business, let’s talk about the personal. Tell us about your background, what brought you to the world of wealth management. Michael Kim: Yeah, first of all, Jason, thrilled to be here. Thank you for having me, I’m looking forward to our conversation. My goodness, what brought me to this industry? There’s several reasons. First and foremost, I love working with other people and specifically in a position where we can help others. How fortunate are we, Jason, where we get to work with, in my opinion, the best financial advisors where their core mission is to help others, and specifically helping their clients’ goals and dreams come true, and we get to be part of that? And just for me to be and our teams to be part of that, that is just humbling and exciting. That’s one of the big reasons. Let’s see, I love working with the business owners and entrepreneurs. I have a little bit of entrepreneurial gene, both of my parents are entrepreneurs as well. So Jason, I know you could appreciate that. Working with entrepreneurs, and for me it is all about relationships. Really being able to build deep, personal, professional relationships where we can learn off of each other, help each other, and really do good for clients, the community, and the industry. My goodness, what a perfect industry to be in. I mean, those are just some of the reasons that brought me to this great place. I’ve been with AssetMark for, gosh, now 16 years. Just still feels like day number one here, Jason, but I know we’ll get into a lot more details, but so many different things that have brought me here to this industry. Jason Diamond: Wow, 16 years. I definitely want to double click into that. I’m sure you’ve seen the firm evolve a lot. By the way, I feel like you feel, what a blessing and what an amazing industry. Of all the industries in the world and of all the kind of verticals and niches, I just think it’s such an incredible, not only industry, but an incredible time in our industry. Part of that is the proliferation of choice for advisors, and how many different ways there are for an advisor to run a sophisticated, successful, entrepreneurial business. No matter what that could mean within a wirehouse, by the way. I don’t mean that to mean independent. So, I want to talk about all of that. I think your perspective is unique. Whole career at AssetMark or did you start elsewhere? That’s the last question we’ll ask on background. Michael Kim: Yeah, so like I said, 16 years here at AssetMark, and I’ve had pretty much all the different leadership responsibilities here. I became president and CEO a few years ago. The other interesting part of my journey here at AssetMark is over that 16-year period, Jason, five different owners. My goodness, five different sort of capital providers and owners and investors coming into the business. We’ve had the fortune of working with large strategic firms to great private equity firms. We even took the company public, so we did the whole New York Stock Exchange, ringing the bell and the whole nine yards. And in 2024, we took the company private again, and we’re just super excited. Our current owner is GTCR, just incredible private equity investors, partners, friends. And we’ve actually known those guys for a number of years before the deal. And through series of different conversations, it was just the right fit. And we’ve been with them for over two years now, and I just feel like we’re just barely scratch the surface, Jason, in terms of all the different things that we can do with them. And let’s see, prior to AssetMark, I was with Fidelity, we were talking a little earlier, and that’s where I cut my teeth. And I had a chance to work with RIA firms, I was managing all the RIA wealth management relationships at Fidelity for a number of years, spent a big portion of my Fidelity tenure in Boston, as all roads go through Boston for Fidelity. Jason Diamond: We’re going Boston, baby. Michael Kim: Exactly. And Jason, you know what’s really interesting is I started with Fidelity back in the late ’90s, and back then, my goodness, people really didn’t know the RIA industry. We’d have to remind them it’s RIA, not IRA, that whole nine yards. And it’s just really special to see the RIA and the independent industry just grow to what it is today and just really making that impact to the clients. I know we’ll dig into a lot more of those details. And then actually prior to Fidelity, I’m a CPA by training. So, I’m a recovering CPA, as I like to say, and no accounting jokes, Jason, today here. All right? Jason Diamond: I didn’t prepare any. No promises though. A couple things I want to ask you about. First of all, position the positives of the various owners you’ve had. That sounds also though potentially disruptive, 5 different owners in 15 years. Thoughts on that? And then, the other thing is not a question, more of a compliment. I always think people of Fidelity Schwab in the ’90s, early 2000s, part of me feels like you must want to say a little bit like, “I told you so. We were right about this call and this movement.” So, if you want to use this platform to do so, you’re welcome to. Michael Kim: Well, it’s funny, I’ll take the second part of the question first. It is interesting just reflecting back on the earlier days of the RIA industry. Back in the ’90s, I mean, it was such a cottage industry. Most of our time was really spent on educating not just advisors but other players in the industry about what it means to be an independent, trusted, fiduciary advisor to the clients. And again, in this day and age, Jason, I mean that is just part of our everyday vernacular. Jason Diamond: You take that for granted. Michael Kim: Exactly. But back then, educating the advisor that, yes, they get to control their own destiny and they get to own the economics. And most importantly, they get to really control the client experience and helping that client really fulfill their goals and dreams and the outcomes that they’ve been working together on. And so, really having that type of both a advisory discussion but also a business discussion, it’s just been super fulfilling. And I too have learned quite a bit just in terms of what it means to be both a business owner and an advisor. But that’s one of the big things that we’ve all experienced, especially in the earlier days and as this industry continues to mature. Even back then, Jason, I saw the potential and it was interesting. I remember thinking to myself, “My goodness,” not just the wires and the banks and other brokerage firms, but really again, going back to the benefit to the end client, that investor to have that trusted advisor where there was no conflict, that advisor was sitting on the same side of the table as himself and really doing what was clearly in the best interest of the client. Again, today it’s part of our DNA, part of what we talk about, but back then it was a newer concept. And so, we just feel very humble to have been part of that in the early days. I think your first question was about the different series of owners and investors that we’ve had. And again, as I reflect back on this, Jason, five different firms. We had a life insurance company, we had private equity, actually two different PE firms come together for joint ownership. We actually had a foreign brokerage firm that owned us for a number of years, and then also the being publicly traded and now being private again. My view, Jason, is that every type of capital structure, there’s pros and cons, but two things that I want to just maybe share with you and your audience is that first and foremost, regardless of the capital structure, it really is incumbent on the management team to do what’s in the best interest of the client. Again, it’s a no-brainer, but really reminding your teams that do always do what’s in the best interest of the client, and then you execute to the T and the rest should usually take care of itself, number one. And then number two, what we’ve learned is never forget about the culture of your firm. Regardless of, again, the capital structure and the type of priorities that different owners, investors ask you to focus on, absolutely those are important business priorities, but none of that would be possible, Jason, without the right culture, and really all the different employees and colleagues and teammates growing in the same direction, Jason. And again, we’ll get into a lot more because there’s actually a great level of parallel in terms of the lessons that we learn to what we’re seeing in the advisor community as they’re operating their own businesses. So, I know we’ll unpack a lot of that, but those are just some of the themes that I recall as I think about our journey here. Jason Diamond: That’s a really thoughtful answer, thank you. I want to ask you a question on clarifying. You used the term clients. When you think about your clients, you are talking about financial advisors who in turn are serving their end clients. Is that correct? Michael Kim: That’s right. Jason Diamond: Let’s talk about this. You’ve worked with, whether it’s Fidelity or now the last 16 years I would imagine thousands of advisors, probably mostly independent advisors. And growth, at least today is the number one thing in our conversations that comes up of advisors that want to grow. What do you think separates advisors who are able to grow from those who are not, or are less effective at it? Michael Kim: Yeah, great question. So just by the way, context, today at AssetMark we work with over 12,000 individual financial advisors, and at Fidelity, thousands of independent RIA firms. And so, we’ve been very fortunate to have seen, Jason, a lot of different models and best practices. And to your point about growth- Jason Diamond: And worst practices. Michael Kim: Well, we’ll keep it best practices here, and lots of incredible lessons learned as well. Jason, what’s interesting is I think one of the common threads that we see in the most successfully growth-oriented firms has been the advisors and their teams are intentional about growth. And what I mean by that is growth isn’t something that the advisors do as a hobby. It is arguably the number one priority. In fact, we have a saying here at AssetMark that growth is life. And if you’re not growing, you’re dead. So, a big part of the focus is, okay, how do we put the right plan together? A simple thing like a marketing plan. I mean, Jason, it is amazing the opportunity that we have to help advisors really craft their own marketing narrative and the unique capabilities that they bring. So, let’s talk about it and let’s figure out ways to leverage that secret sauce to drive referrals and other new opportunities. And so, really having that intentional focus starting with a marketing plan. And to me, I always suggest to our advisors that let’s get creative. Let’s not try to do the same old things and keep banging our head against the wall. Let’s try new things, let’s learn from it, let’s fine-tune it. I mean, things like digital leads and really leveraging the social media aspect. Most advisors still are not, I would say comfortable or confident in leveraging the digital platforms or different channels. To me, this is a huge opportunity for advisors, for other enterprises to leverage the digital platforms to get their word out and really leverage that in a way to drive new opportunities. And then the third is execution. My goodness, you can get creative, you can have all kinds of great marketing strategies, but if you’re not executing and doing the things that you say you’re going to do, and do it right and do it again the next day, it’s all for show. And so, we always talk about how do we help our advisors come up with the best marketing strategy, get creative in some of those ideas, and then let’s go roll up our sleeves and let’s go execute, let’s really bring those great ideas to reality, and let’s figure out a way to fine-tune it, sharpen it, do it better, and the next day do it all over again. And just being intentional, Jason, to sum it all up, I think is a huge part of what growth is all about. And I guess last thing I’ll mention here is, Jason, you know this, but I just can’t stress this enough. Organic growth is the number one predictor of the health of the business. I’m speaking from experience. I mean, the five different owners and the capital provider changes that we’ve experienced, one of the key things that they’ve always asked for and we’ve demonstrated in the early parts of our conversations is our ability to grow the business. That organic growth, again, it is a huge part of that strategic business consideration. Jason Diamond: Well, I totally agree with that. There’s an element of organic growth is probably the number one predictor of a healthy, vibrant business. And also to your point, because some advisors say, “Okay, great. Who cares? My business is good enough for me.” But to your point, a buyer cares about it so it impacts valuation as well. You gave a really thoughtful answer as to the question of growth and intentionality around growth, I maybe should have started here. Your answer was broader than I maybe expected, so give us the elevator pitch for AssetMark. What does your company do? Michael Kim: Yeah, so at AssetMark we are in the business of serving independent financial advisors as the premier wealth platform. We focus on delivering the best investment experience with the most integrated digital technology and the most personalized service and experience. The last thing that we always talk about is really the community of like-minded advisors that we support. As I mentioned, we are fortunate to serve over 12,000 plus individual financial advisors in the independent space. And we talk a lot about community. And the reason for that, Jason, is in many cases the advisors are out there on the island to themselves and they are wondering about things like growth. And so, what we try to bring in is really a lot of the peer-to-peer type of learning, opportunity for different advisors to connect with one another, learn from each other, and really sharpen their value proposition or their narrative. And so that community aspect, it is something special. And we actually have many advisors, Jason, where it’s the third generation advisor that have been working with AssetMark that have been connecting with one another. When you go to some of our conferences and events, I always like to say it is the industry’s largest study group out there. And so, we get to be part of that and we get to host that. And so anyway, that’s a little bit about the AssetMark store, we are in business of serving independent financial advisors. Jason Diamond: I think there’s a lot of different elements of that value prop that we can talk about, but the one that I think is probably most closely associated in the market is investment management. Let’s talk about investment management, or more specifically the idea of outsourcing investment management to somebody else. Because especially for wirehouse advisors, I think there’s this perception, real or not, that’s a core part of what an advisor does. And I’ve seen the statistics, I know that most advisors are not particularly good at investment management, but they’ve sold their clients on this is a part of what we do for you, financial planning, investment management, and the like. So, what say you? What are your thoughts on the idea that investment management has to be a part of the core financial advisor experience? Michael Kim: Yeah. No, totally get it. And I mean, we have thousands and thousands of conversations about this very issue. And Jason, you’re right. I mean, so many advisors believe that their value to their clients is about building the best 60/40 balance portfolio. And with all that in mind, in this day and age with technology and really accessibility to the different investment products and strategies, what advisors have to realize is that the most important thing that the clients want from that advisor is the advisor, not the portfolio or which ETF that they selected. The number one thing, and this is based on the most recent spectrum survey, the number one thing that particularly the higher net worth investors, what they ask and what they expect from their advisors isn’t a investment product or a portfolio design, it’s actually advice on taxes and wealth transfer. Think about that. They want to know how that advisor is going to help them optimize their taxes, they want to know how the wealth that they worked so hard their entire life, how that’s going to be passed on in the most tax-efficient and the most consistent way, consistent with their goals and objectives to their adult children, et cetera. And so, part of I think the new age perspective has to be that the advisor really positioning themselves as that trusted, holistic advisor. A wealth counselor is really the term that I like to use. As a wealth counselor, yes, investment management is an important part, but it’s one of number of different components that the clients are expecting. And Jason, when I think about the more successful advisors in our ecosystem, they’re leading with taxes, they’re leading with creating trust for their grandchildren, they’re leading with creating family LLCs and how all of that fits into the broader picture. Because in this day and age of creating a good 60/40 portfolio, I think those are table stakes at this point. And so, a big part of this is how do we help the advisors really broaden their expertise so that they feel confident in talking about these other array of services? Frankly, these services that their clients are expecting and demanding that their advisors deliver. And last thing I’ll mention is here’s the cold harsh reality. If that advisor isn’t delivering those types of services, especially to that next gen client, guess what? That next gen client who’s about to inherit a lot of the wealth from their parents and so forth, they’re probably looking and in conversations with other advisors as well. And so, we just want to ensure that there’s a longevity of the client relationships by helping that advisor deliver a full array of the wealth planning capabilities. You could tell I’m pretty passionate about this, Jason, I can go on, but yeah, this is a very important part of one of the key developments that we’re seeing in the industry. Jason Diamond: I could tell I’m not the first person to ask you, I wouldn’t have expected that I’d be the first person to ask you this. It was a very thoughtful answer. I think part of what you’re saying is because advisors need to deliver so much, probably more than ever, because a lot of what you’re describing is table stakes, outsourcing investment management is the only way to get there. It’s a zero-sum game, you have finite amount of time, and what your clients are saying is they want more of you. So, by giving up some of what’s table stakes into a more systematic kind of process, you’re able to do more. Is that a fair summary? Michael Kim: Absolutely, and you hit the nail on the head. I mean, it is all about time management and capacity. Yes, the advisors can do anything, but they can’t do everything. And so, what they have to really make a strategic decision on is what are the activities that will generate the highest level of impact to the clients, and frankly to their business? And so, delegate and outsource the other activities, whether it be research, portfolio management, trading, reporting, technology, et cetera, to a provider that has the scale and really delivering those types of capabilities so that advisor can spend the extra time with a client. And just one last unique stat or insight to share. We do a survey every year, Jason, and I would be happy to make this study available to your audience. It’s called Annual Impact of Outsourcing Survey, and it measures the amount of extra time created by those advisors who’ve made a conscious decision to outsource. This year it’s over nine hours per week. So, think about that. Nine extra hours per week today. And so, that’s like having an extra day in a week plus. And so, that’s just an example of the type of capacity that outsourcing creates. The other important benefit to this is not just freeing up time and creating capacity, but now you get to deliver other experts and other resources to your clients, and you get to be, you meaning the advisor, becomes really the quarterback for all those different experts that are serving that client relationships. And so again, it’s something that we believe is fundamental. We absolutely believe that’s going to be a key part that will fuel the advisor’s growth going forward as well. Jason Diamond: So it’s a perfect segue, because I agree. The capacity conversation, it comes up over and over again. In fact, one of the ways it manifests itself is obviously as a recruiter, we hear about movement and it becomes a catalyst for movement. Like, “Hey, I’m spending all my time doing the wrong things and I need to spend more time doing XYZ.” The other thing that comes to mind when we think about capacity, yes, I hear you, outsourcing. There’s clearly elements like compliance. Yeah, you don’t need to be doing that yourself, you can outsource that. But what about AI would be the other obvious way to me that advisors can force multiply themselves? Give me your thoughts on A, what are you guys doing in this space? And then B, what are your thoughts just on the impact on the wealth management industry at large? Michael Kim: Yeah, great question. You can’t have a podcast or any conversation this day and age without AI, right? Jason Diamond: No. You knew it was coming, sorry. Michael Kim: No, this is great. And look, I mean, personally I believe that AI is going to change everything. Now, what does that really mean? Two areas that we think a lot about both internally at AssetMark, but also what we believe we can expect to see in the industry. Number one, it’s all about productivity. And then number two, it’s about experience. So, how do we think about positioning AI, leveraging AI to improve productivity, and more importantly, delivering even a better experience? And so, internally at AssetMark, we’re doing all the different things in terms of all of our Zoom meetings, the virtual meetings, the note-taking and so forth. To me, again, those are table stakes now. And advisors themselves as well, as they’re having these types of meetings, using all the usual products in the industry that we’re all very familiar with, making sure that is a core part of, I guess the workflow to really streamline and expedite the follow-up process, the notes and summaries of the conversations. A specific example, one of the things that we launched is really around Slack, our enterprise level for ChatGPT and so forth. Again, it is just something that is accelerating the pace of business internally at AssetMark. From an experience point of view, Jason, oh my goodness, we can go on and on on this. At AssetMark, a big part of what we think about is how do we embed AI into the workflow so that it’s just regular part of how we do things as opposed to going somewhere, maybe figuring out how to work with an agent and this and that? We are in the process of launching a new capability called Talk Tracks. And so, this is actually for advisors. So, an advisor who taps into our website right before a client meeting, we will literally create talk tracks for that advisor on what are some of the insights that they should share with their client on their portfolio? Maybe they should be taking a required minimum distribution. Maybe they should be thinking about opening up a 529 because they have grandchildren, or maybe they should be doing some other planning activities. The point is it uses AI to gather the different data points, not just from the client but really just scouring the entire industry and other clients with similar profiles, and bringing in different suggestions literally as bullet point talk points for the advisor. And just based on early feedback, man, Jason, this is like our advisors love it. I mean, our advisors are saying that program alone, Talk Tracks, has really saved about two hours per day, because normally they would have to figure out the talking points for the upcoming meeting, and we will be doing all of that for that advisor. And so again, we believe that productivity will be super enhanced. And then the experience is, to me, that is where the gold mine is in terms of opportunities for AI to contribute. And last thing I’ll mention here, you and I, we often get the question of, “Okay, what does this mean for advisors? Will AI replace advisors and so forth?” No, because investors, at the end of the day they want that emotional security of knowing that they’re going to be okay. Now having said that, I do believe that advisors need to change how they engage with their clients, because that client is going to be coming into that meeting with the advisor having done their research, having asked their best friend ChatGPT about what to expect in that upcoming meeting. It’s very analogous to, I don’t know about you, but if I go see my doctor, I go to WebMD and I’m asking WebMD, “Okay, what should I be thinking about? These are my symptoms,” et cetera, so that I can actually have a much more intelligent, impactful conversation with my physician. I don’t see anything different in that the clients, the end clients will come in with some level of preliminary research, virtual conversation with their friend Chat, and then that allows that engagement with their trusted advisor to be that much It’s more meaningful. And so, I absolutely believe that it will really enhance the client experience provided that the advisors are prepared for this type of a change in the industry. Jason Diamond: And that’s an interesting spin, the idea that clients themselves will use the tool to get better educated, to basically become better clients for advisors. One thing that comes to mind with some of your talk points, I think it’s a brilliant idea. I think it’s clearly another obvious example of capacity saver. Do you think there’s a risk with that and with just AI tools in general of depersonalizing the relationship and just almost making things a little bit cookie cutter? I’ll tell you what comes to mind for me is I can tell in some cases when I get an AI email, and it makes me cringe. I’m not even talking about a spam email, I’m talking about an email that somebody tried to write to me but they used AI as a way to basically write me three paragraphs. So, give me your thoughts on is there a risk here that this just becomes this really depersonalized experience? Michael Kim: Absolutely, I do think that there’s that risk there. I do believe that it’s actually happening already. If you think about just the basics of portfolio construction and just different investment vehicles, whether it’s an ETF fund, security, what have you, chances are that advisor will come into that meeting having done some research and they may know or be more familiar with the underlying vehicles than the past generation. So, the advisors who’s hanging their hat on portfolio construction, that 60/40 balance portfolio that I alluded to earlier as really the reason why that client should be working with them, that is going to be a very non-personal or less personal relationship. Now, imagine even with AI though, that the advisor has cracked a code on how to humanize that engagement and really deliver much more of an emotionally connected experience. That’s where I think the advisors will have an opportunity to really elevate. So as I said earlier, think about those advisors that have not only built really a durable portfolio to help that client achieve their portfolio goals, but wrapping that with tax planning, wrapping that with family planning or estate planning, and really being that first call that the clients make in the event of something, something happens, that’s where the real emotions come in. And part of it is this evolution that the advisors are on where Jason, you know this better than I do, in the past they were brokers and now recently they were more the investment portfolio managers. And then really going forward it’s about how do they deliver that real deeply personal and that trusted engagement about wealth transfer, about tax management, about business exit planning if they’re business owners. And really those are the moments where the advisors will not only earn their keep, but elevate themselves from rest of the pack. I absolutely believe that this evolution and the opportunity that frankly AI and other developments are catalyzing, if positioned properly the advisors can benefit from this type of a change in an incredible way. Jason Diamond: I think there’s tremendous opportunity for advisors that harness this the right way. It brings me to an interesting question. I don’t think everybody who listens to our show is contemplating change or making a change of firms, but certainly there’s a subset of advisors who are at least curious. And technology is one area. It always comes up. I wonder, advisors don’t know what they don’t know in this realm. So, I think about a wirehouse advisor who’s been conditioned to think that the sandbox is the sandbox and it works well enough, and it probably does. They can service clients within that sandbox. So, how is that wirehouse advisor supposed to think about this new world that you’re talking about where he doesn’t even know the right questions to ask because it’s so completely foreign? Michael Kim: It’s such a great question, and it’s an important question that all advisors, particularly ones that are in a wirehouse or captive type of environment should be asking. And I think if you double click that question, it’s about how do they become even a better trusted advisor to their clients? Number one. And then number two, could they also build their own business as well? Meaning could they become a business owner or entrepreneur and control their own destiny? And to me, as we were talking earlier about the growth of the independent space, the independent, the industry is, I mean, this is where these two themes are hitting the road. One of the biggest opportunities that I see is for advisors to not only fulfill the goals and dreams of their end clients, but actually for themselves and for their office mates and for their colleagues as well. Why not? Why not create their own entity that they can control, and really control their own destiny in terms of the desired business outcomes? Now to your point, most advisors don’t know how to really plug in a CRM with a financial planning, with a portfolio management system and how all those things work. And compliance, you mentioned that earlier is such an important part. So, the big thing is how does that advisor continue to focus first and foremost on their clients, but bringing in outsource partners that can help them deliver to this fully integrated tech stack, this workflow that will actually create a better experience for their team, but also for their clients as well? And then growth. How do they really think about growth within the firm, but also leveraging outside experts like AssetMark and others to really get that next high net worth client? And so, the point is the advisor shouldn’t feel like they have to do all of this work on their own. Really leverage the different experts that are out there. And Jason, I mean, you know exactly all the different things that wirehouse advisors should do as they’re contemplating different affiliation models. Similarly, if the advisor is looking for that easy button on investments, or technology, or growth or what have you, leverage the different industry experts out there that are in the business of helping advisors achieve those goals. So, it’s one of those things where it may feel daunting initially, but really the opportunity that we have is to educate those advisors and share with them on how we can really help their business goals come true as well. Jason Diamond: Yeah, it’s a good answer. To me, there’s two ways to think about the Kitces map, if you will, of the massive ecosystem. On the one hand, it’s overwhelming and daunting. But on the other hand, you mentioned the term cottage industry. Think about how far from a FinTech perspective and an investment tech perspective, and just a wealth management tech perspective the industry has come where it’s a blessing that all of these different solutions exist. And also, part and parcel to all these solutions is there’s a lot of different education solutions out there also. So, I think that’s the number one takeaway is advisors not feeling like they need to do this alone because there are so many different options. I think your lens into this is unique given the number of advisors, that you need literally thousands of advisors. So, we spoke about AI, we spoke about this outsourcing. What is another maybe trend or something you’re keeping your eye on, or something you’re hearing from your advisors that our audience might not be aware of? Give us a preview. Michael Kim: Yeah. So for me, I’m a growth guy, Jason, and I always come back to growth. And the number one, I think about the organic growth aspect. And we can spend hours on this, but probably two things that I just want to share with your audience. Organic growth, not only is it the best measure on the health and really the durability of the business, but it also is really like the north star. It should be the north star of any business. I mean, new clients is a lifeblood of any business out there. And so, part of being a business owner means thinking strategically about how do I continue to lead this new teammates and the new firm to ensure that there’s continuous pipeline of new clients coming in for all the different reasons that we talked about. Number two, have a plan. I know it sounds simple, but have a plan. And there are people like yourselves and our firm and others that can help. When I think about what does that plan should entail, just start with existing clients. How do I help retain and grow my existing clients? And then number two, how do I get a few more new clients? And that could be referrals, that could be other lead generation programs, but just really put those thoughts on paper. Anyway, so organic growth. And then, on the inorganic growth side, this is, Jason, where there’s just so much activity and here’s the best part. I still feel like, Jason, we are in the bottom of first inning of this massive pace of not just consolidation, but really the growth of this independent segment. Experts like yourselves and others that are helping the wire or others, advisors in other ecosystems come in to this independent space. Succession, we haven’t talked about that today, but succession I think is going to be a massive tailwind behind many of these consolidations. And then the third thing that I’ll mention is the access to capital. I heard someone say the other day that capital is commodity. Before, that was the key thing that was either a catalyst or maybe a headwind for this type of inorganic growth. Today, capital is somewhat of a commodity. And so, there’s so many different PE investors or institutional firms that are coming into this space. And so, part of it is to really thinking about what your right target audience is and how your structure and your strategy is going to be different than the guy next door and making sure that you execute. And the capital will be there. Believe me, the capital will be there. And I just think, Jason, that the inorganic growth opportunity is going to continue to accelerate in this space here. Jason Diamond: There’s PE money coming into the space? I hadn’t heard that before. Michael Kim: Yeah, it’s maybe one or two. Jason Diamond: Let me ask you a few follow-ups there. I think that the tie-in there, the thing that people might be worried about then would be decompression, whether it’s because firms need to just spend more because advisor needs, whatever the case may be. Do you think that it’s the same playbook for advisors to avoid that? Lean into AI tools, lean into things like outsourcing, lean into M&A inorganic, things like that? Or is there more to it? Or is this just something that you don’t worry about at all? Michael Kim: No, I mean, we worry, we study, we keep a very close eye on the fee trends out there. And there is always pressure on the fees, and I think it’s healthy that there’s pressure on the fees. I think a big part of when we talk about fees, the other word that is synonymous with the fee compression is scale. Are we able to scale? Are the advisors able to scale in terms of their delivery mechanisms and their operations? And so, what scale means is being … Doesn’t necessarily mean cutting expenses and doing it with lower costs. To me, it is thinking more strategically about are there areas in terms of different technology that we can invest in so that over time we can deliver even a better experience in a more scaled way? Are there personnel that we can bring in to the firm that can bring a certain level of expertise that will help us take the business and the client experience to the next level? And so, there’s many different ways to scale it, but decompression is synonymous with scale. And so, as a business owner, which now advisors are both trusted advisors but also business owners, they should be thinking a lot more about how they can scale their operation. We at AssetMark, we have over 1,100 employees and we’re expecting to grow at least 20% year over year. And our view is how do we leverage AI? How do we leverage technology? How do we leverage some of the offshore contractors and other scale levers to make sure that we’re doing it without creating additional fee pressure, economic pressure to ourselves and to our clients? And so, it’s always a fun exercise to go through. We’re actually starting a planning process already, but scale aspect, Jason, is an important part of this conversation. Jason Diamond: Good answer, yep. All right, two more. I’m going to give you a fun one here. I’m giving you a lateral, I don’t know if this is a demotion, but let’s say you’re hypothetically you’re now CEO of a small to medium-sized independent firm, an RIA. You’ve got capital. To your point, capital is somewhat easy to come by. Here are your choices. A, you explore M&A, go buy a business right now. B, trip to Hawaii for all the founders. Or C, is there some business reinvestment that excites you that you think businesses should be doing? Michael Kim: That trip to Hawaii is very enticing, but when I think about the opportunity as a leader of the firm, call me a little bit of old-fashioned here but I go back to our existing clients as the number one place of investments. For me, we can do all kinds of really fun, sexy things, but if we don’t take care of our current base of clients, everything falls apart. And so, first and foremost, how do we take care of our clients? And for me, what that really means is how do we deliver the best service experience? At AssetMark, one of the key things that we are maniacal about is how do we continue to be known as the easiest place to do business for advisors? Similarly, for an advisory firm and the leaders of that advisory firm, I would submit that they should be thinking about how do they serve their clients so that the clients view that firm as the firm that all clients should be working with. And generally we think a lot about that day-to-day experience, delighting that client, that unexpected delight. I mean, my God, things like that. It doesn’t cost a lot, but it goes so far in terms of just really strengthening that experience. So that is, to me, the foundation. And after that, I also want to invest in additional organic growth capabilities. I think things like retirement is an incredibly underserved market. It is one of the largest segments of our wealth space, but arguably one of the more underserved markets. Jason Diamond: It’s not the sexiest space. Michael Kim: It’s not the sexiest, but it is an important … I mean, retirement is important, Jason. So we at AssetMark, we recently launched our self-directed brokerage program, and this is really opportunity for advisors to tap into the 401k accounts. It’s almost like a pre-rollover type of strategy, but that’s an example where we believe that there’s tons of opportunities even for advisors to serve their clients. And then, with whatever’s left in the checkbook, we love to look at the right advisors that we can potentially tuck into that firm and really branch out in terms of our presence. So, those are just some of the things that I think we would prioritize with some of the extra capital that may be coming into it. Jason Diamond: You’re hired. Michael Kim: And then we take that trip to Hawaii. Jason Diamond: Time for one more, this has been fantastic. I really appreciate the wisdom you’ve shared. Let’s fast-forward now 10 years. What are you hoping that people are saying about AssetMark and the role you’ve played in helping advisors to build businesses? And let’s go beyond just from a portfolio management, investment management perspective. Michael Kim: Yeah. As we look forward, and we actually have these types of conversations as part of our strategic planning session, let’s just say 10 years from now, what we want to be known as really that premier wealth platform, a business partner, a trusted business partner, a friend that advisors will view as a partner that helped them achieve their business goals. Meaning, let’s just say a wirehouse advisor who decided to come into the independent space, we were the firm that really helped them serve their clients better through our investments, digital and service, and then really help them grow to that next level. And so, we want to be known as a premier wealth platform that has really propelled the growth of the independent advisory firms to levels that they would not have been able to do on their own. And by the way, have some fun along the way. So have some fun, really be part of that special AssetMark community, that community of like-minded advisors by really helping that advisory firm achieve their strategic growth objectives. I hope that, Jason, with all of our employees, 1,100 employees coming in every day, our mission is to make a difference in the lives of our advisors and their clients, and I hope that we’re fulfilling that mission. I hope that we are working hard in 10 years as we are now, delivering on that promise and really making that impact each and every day for our valued advisors. Jason Diamond: I have no doubt you will. Thank you so much, Michael. This has been an absolute blast. Appreciate you coming on. Michael Kim: Thank you, Jason. That was a lot of fun. Mindy Diamond: As a financial advisor, you hold yourself to the highest standards of integrity, honesty, and credibility. You are successful because you take your professional responsibilities seriously, and are dedicated to your clients. But are you living your best business life? Are your goals aligned with your firms, or could a better option exist? Should I Stay or Should I Go? is a book written with you in mind. It’s a self-guided journey that walks you through the key steps that we take with our advisor clients. This strategic thought process and roadmap to professional self-discovery is designed to help you ask the right questions, and think critically and objectively, whether you’re considering change or not. Learn how to get your copy at diamond-consultants.com/thebook.

   September 17, 2026·50min
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   Number 3: Build, Grow & Transact: Making the Leap from Northwestern Mutual to a $20B Enterprise

   Andy Schwartz CEO, OnePoint BFG Wealth Partners | Kevin Spahn Founder, Spahn Financial (now OnePoint BFG) Two former Northwestern Mutual advisors, two very different paths. Andy Schwartz and Kevin Spahn share what it takes to build, grow, merge, and create lasting enterprise value. In Summary What separates a successful advisory practice from an enterprise with the ability to grow well beyond its founders? Andy Schwartz and Kevin Spahn offer two different perspectives on that question. Both spent decades at Northwestern Mutual, but their paths eventually diverged. Andy left to help build what is now OnePoint BFG Wealth Partners, an $18B+ firm expected to surpass $20B by year-end. Kevin built one of Northwestern Mutual’s top practices before deciding to merge his business into OnePoint and become an equity partner. Louis talks with Andy and Kevin about the decisions behind both journeys: creating a true firm rather than an aggregation of practices, transitioning advisors from 1099 to W-2, using outside capital without relinquishing control, rethinking succession, and determining when equity in a larger enterprise can offer greater opportunity than continuing to build alone. Underlying it all is a factor that’s much harder to quantify: trust. The Storyline Andy Schwartz and Kevin Spahn have known each other for roughly 30 years. They met while both were building careers at Northwestern Mutual, where Andy became an important mentor to Kevin as Kevin transitioned from practicing law and estate planning into wealth management. After roughly 30 years at Northwestern Mutual, Andy and his partners left in 2015 with approximately $3B in assets to launch independently. What began as Bleakley Financial eventually became OnePoint BFG Wealth Partners, an $18B+ enterprise that Andy expects will surpass $20B by the end of 2026. That kind of growth required more than attracting assets. Andy describes the evolution from a predominantly 1099 structure into a firm where more than 85% of advisors and AUM are now W-2. The shift created a more cohesive enterprise, gave advisors access to equity, and ultimately positioned OnePoint to bring in minority capital from Joe Duran’s Rise Growth Partners. Andy makes an important distinction about that relationship: OnePoint is “private equity invested,” not “private equity owned.” The structure gave the firm capital and expertise while allowing its partners to retain control. Kevin faced a different decision. After more than 30 years at Northwestern Mutual, his practice had grown to 18 people and approximately $2B in assets. He was happy at the firm, but his clients had evolved, his business had become increasingly complex, and the internal succession plan he once envisioned carried risks he could no longer ignore. He could have built an independent firm himself. Instead, he chose to merge with OnePoint. The decision wasn’t driven by the largest possible check. Kevin saw the opportunity to become an equity partner in a larger enterprise, give his team and clients a more durable future, and leverage infrastructure he didn’t want to recreate himself. For both men, the story ultimately comes back to the same principle: The right economics matter, but sustainable partnerships require trust, shared philosophy, and the belief that everyone involved can create more value together than separately. Topics Covered Building an enterprise versus building a practice Northwestern Mutual and the path to independence OnePoint BFG Wealth Partners’ growth from ~$3B to $18B+ Organic growth versus M&A Creating a growth-oriented advisor culture Moving from a 1099 model to a predominantly W-2 structure Equity ownership and advisor alignment Minority private equity investment Rise Growth Partners and Joe Duran Internal succession versus an external merger Selling versus merging an advisory business Merging versus teaming versus going it alone Evaluating equity versus cash in a transaction The economics of leaving a captive firm Centralization versus advisor autonomy Trust as a factor in partnerships and transactions > Download a transcript of this episode… Listen and Learn Highlights for Advisors How did Andy and Kevin’s 30-year relationship ultimately lead to a transaction? (04:11)Kevin explains how Andy helped him transition from attorney and estate planner into wealth management, beginning a professional relationship that would eventually make their partnership possible decades later. Why did Andy leave Northwestern Mutual after roughly 30 years? (08:45)Andy describes wanting greater flexibility, a multi-custodial platform, and more optionality for clients and the business—a decision that ultimately led to the creation of OnePoint BFG. Why did Kevin decide his longtime Northwestern Mutual practice needed something different? (15:49)Kevin explains how his clients, service needs, and business evolved over time, while concerns about his original internal succession plan led him to consider a different path. What has driven OnePoint’s growth from approximately $3B to $18B+? (21:41)Andy outlines the firm’s emphasis on client experience, advisor experience, organic growth, and carefully selected inorganic growth—and why helping advisors grow is fundamental to the model. Why does Andy say OnePoint is a firm rather than an aggregator? (23:54)The distinction comes down to alignment, shared responsibility, centralized resources, equity, and a partnership structure in which advisors are accountable to one another. How did OnePoint convert a predominantly 1099 advisor base into a W-2 enterprise? (29:26)Andy explains why capital and equity became necessary to build the next stage of the business and why trust was essential to bringing advisors into a more integrated structure. Why did OnePoint choose minority private equity investment? (33:13)Andy shares why Rise Growth Partners offered something previous potential buyers had not: a structure designed to benefit the broader advisor partnership while preserving control. Why did Kevin merge with OnePoint rather than shop his practice broadly? (36:43)For Kevin, maximizing price wasn’t the objective. His decision centered on trust in Andy, confidence in OnePoint’s infrastructure, and creating a strong future for clients and employees. Why did Kevin choose equity in the larger firm instead of simply cashing out? (40:57)Kevin explains why he believes participating in the future growth of a larger enterprise offers a compelling alternative to relying solely on the future growth of his own practice. How should advisors evaluate the “golden handcuffs” that can make leaving difficult? (46:42)Andy argues that the analysis needs to compare what an advisor gives up with the potential growth, economics, equity, and leverage available on the other side. How much conformity does a true enterprise require? (49:06)Andy explains why OnePoint sits somewhere between complete advisor autonomy and complete centralization, seeking enough consistency to create enterprise value without eliminating entrepreneurial flexibility. What would Andy and Kevin tell their younger selves? (52:06)Kevin emphasizes surrounding yourself with the best people possible, while Andy reflects on having the courage to make a difficult change after a successful 30-year run. Key Takeaways Building enterprise value requires more than asset growth. OnePoint’s evolution included changing its ownership structure, integrating advisor practices, creating equity opportunities, and investing in centralized capabilities. Organic growth remains central even in an M&A-driven market. OnePoint targets approximately 10% organic growth and evaluates prospective partners partly on whether they are growth-oriented and whether the firm can meaningfully help them grow. A collection of successful advisors does not automatically make a firm. Andy sees shared ownership, alignment, accountability, infrastructure, and centralized services as critical distinctions between an enterprise and an aggregator. Outside capital does not have to mean giving up control. OnePoint chose a minority investment from Rise Growth Partners that provided capital and strategic support while leaving control with its operating partners. Succession can expose risks that growth may obscure. Kevin began reconsidering his internal succession strategy when he recognized its dependence on his continued production, key employees, and the future economics of an aging client base. The highest purchase price isn’t always the most valuable transaction. Kevin prioritized equity participation, infrastructure, continuity for his employees and clients, and confidence in his future partners over broadly shopping his business for the highest bid. Trust can determine whether structural change is possible. From OnePoint’s 1099-to-W-2 conversion to Kevin’s decision to merge, both guests repeatedly point to established trust as the foundation that allowed significant business decisions to happen. https://youtu.be/jkIoynpZj6Y Quotable Moments “The biggest mistake advisors make is they buy their own bullshit.”— Andy Schwartz “We’re not an aggregator, we’re a firm.”— Andy Schwartz “The biggest issue is trust. Either they trust you or they don’t.”— Andy Schwartz “I wasn’t looking to sell my business. I was looking to merge it.”— Kevin Spahn “You have to trust them. You have to see that they provide value. And you need to be on the same page philosophically.”— Kevin Spahn “Associate yourselves with the best people you can… It accelerates your trajectory in ways that you can’t do on your own.”— Kevin Spahn FAQs Why did Andy Schwartz leave Northwestern Mutual? After approximately 30 years at Northwestern Mutual, Andy and his partners wanted greater flexibility, the ability to operate on a multi-custodial basis, and more optionality for clients and the business. They left in 2015 with approximately $3B in assets and launched the independent firm that ultimately became OnePoint BFG Wealth Partners. How large is OnePoint BFG Wealth Partners? At the time of the interview, Andy says OnePoint manages more than $18B and expects to exceed $20B by the end of 2026, even without additional organic growth. What has driven OnePoint’s growth? Andy points to three priorities: client experience, advisor experience, and growth. The firm targets approximately 10% organic growth while also expanding through acquisitions and partnerships with advisors it believes fit the OnePoint model. Why did OnePoint move advisors from 1099 to W-2? The firm wanted to evolve from a platform supporting individual practices into a more integrated enterprise. That required creating firm-level economics and equity that could be used to attract, retain, and align advisors. Today, Andy says more than 85% of OnePoint’s advisors and AUM are W-2. What does “private equity invested, not private equity owned” mean? Rise Growth Partners holds a minority, non-controlling interest in OnePoint. The investment provides capital, expertise, and strategic support while the operating partners retain majority ownership and control of the business. Why did Kevin Spahn leave Northwestern Mutual? Kevin says he remained happy at Northwestern Mutual, but his practice and clients had evolved. His work had shifted increasingly toward investments and complex high-net-worth planning, while he also began identifying risks in his intended internal succession plan. Why did Kevin merge with OnePoint rather than launch his own independent RIA? OnePoint already had the infrastructure, people, and capabilities Kevin would have needed to build himself. The merger allowed him to focus on clients while becoming an equity partner in a larger enterprise he believed could grow faster than his standalone practice. Why didn’t Kevin shop his practice to multiple buyers? Kevin says his decision was driven primarily by trust. He had known Andy and other OnePoint partners for decades and believed the firm offered the right future for his clients and employees. His choice ultimately came down to staying at Northwestern Mutual or joining OnePoint. How do Andy and Kevin suggest advisors evaluate a potential partner? Their discussion points to three fundamental considerations: trust, demonstrable value, and philosophical alignment. Economics matter, but both argue that a sustainable partnership depends on confidence in the people and business on the other side of the transaction. After approximately 30 years at Northwestern Mutual, Andy and his partners wanted greater flexibility, the ability to operate on a multi-custodial basis, and more optionality for clients and the business. They left in 2015 with approximately $3B in assets and launched the independent firm that ultimately became OnePoint BFG Wealth Partners. At the time of the interview, Andy says OnePoint manages more than $18B and expects to exceed $20B by the end of 2026, even without additional organic growth. Andy points to three priorities: client experience, advisor experience, and growth. The firm targets approximately 10% organic growth while also expanding through acquisitions and partnerships with advisors it believes fit the OnePoint model. The firm wanted to evolve from a platform supporting individual practices into a more integrated enterprise. That required creating firm-level economics and equity that could be used to attract, retain, and align advisors. Today, Andy says more than 85% of OnePoint’s advisors and AUM are W-2. Rise Growth Partners holds a minority, non-controlling interest in OnePoint. The investment provides capital, expertise, and strategic support while the operating partners retain majority ownership and control of the business. Kevin says he remained happy at Northwestern Mutual, but his practice and clients had evolved. His work had shifted increasingly toward investments and complex high-net-worth planning, while he also began identifying risks in his intended internal succession plan. OnePoint already had the infrastructure, people, and capabilities Kevin would have needed to build himself. The merger allowed him to focus on clients while becoming an equity partner in a larger enterprise he believed could grow faster than his standalone practice. Kevin says his decision was driven primarily by trust. He had known Andy and other OnePoint partners for decades and believed the firm offered the right future for his clients and employees. His choice ultimately came down to staying at Northwestern Mutual or joining OnePoint. Their discussion points to three fundamental considerations: trust, demonstrable value, and philosophical alignment. Economics matter, but both argue that a sustainable partnership depends on confidence in the people and business on the other side of the transaction. Related Resources Rise and Reinvent: Joe Duran on Building and Rebuilding World-Class Firms From Insurance Sales to $8B RIA: A Northwestern Mutual Breakaway Story The 4th Annual Advisor Transition Report Andy SchwartzCo-Founder, Managing Partner, and Chief Executive Officer Andy Schwartz is the Co-Founder, Managing Partner, and Chief Executive Officer of OnePoint BFG Wealth Partners, where he also serves as a Wealth Management Advisor. A CERTIFIED FINANCIAL PLANNER® with more than 40 years of experience, Andy has built his career around helping clients make confident, well-informed financial decisions at every stage of life. He works extensively with physicians and business owners on wealth building, retirement planning, and tax-efficient asset transfer across generations. A 2026 finalist for Wealth Management Awards CEO of the Year (under $25B AUM), Andy brings the same discipline to leading the firm that he brings to client relationships: comprehensive planning, long-term thinking, and an unwavering commitment to independence and integrity. Beyond his client work, Andy is deeply invested in the advisory profession itself. He co-hosts The Advisor’s Compass podcast, offering candid, practical guidance on the business and responsibilities of being an advisor. His mentorship philosophy is straightforward: pass the ladder back down. His industry recognition spans more than a decade, including Top 1,200 Advisor by Barron’s (2018–2024), Top 250 Wealth Advisor and Best-In-State Wealth Advisor by Forbes (2018–2024), Top 400 Financial Advisor by the Financial Times (2018–2020), and Top 100 Independent Advisor (2020–2023). He was named Executive of the Year by NJBIZ in 2019 and was a finalist for the Invest in Others Lifetime Achievement Award for more than 20 years of service with NJ SEEDS. Andy holds a B.S. in Finance and Marketing from Rowan University and is actively involved with Nourish NJ, the Navy SEAL Foundation, the Jewish Federation of Greater MetroWest NJ, and JSDD. Outside the office, he enjoys golf, reading, and time with his family at the beach. Kevin SpahnPartner and Wealth Advisor Kevin Spahn is a Partner and Wealth Advisor at OnePoint BFG Wealth Partners, bringing more than three decades of experience in comprehensive financial planning to his clients and the firm. Kevin’s path to wealth management is rooted in the law. After earning degrees from the University of Notre Dame and the University of Wisconsin, he began his career as a practicing attorney before making a deliberate pivot toward financial planning in 1993. He joined Northwestern Mutual, then founded Spahn Financial, building a practice centered on thoughtful, holistic planning for families and business owners. That practice joined OnePoint BFG Wealth Partners in 2025. His approach has remained consistent throughout: help clients build and protect wealth not just for themselves, but for the generations that follow. Kevin works with clients on comprehensive financial plans that account for the full picture, understanding that the impact of good planning extends well beyond an individual portfolio to families, businesses, employees, and the broader community. Kevin is based in the greater Chicago area. NOTE: The views and opinions expressed by the guests on this podcast are their own and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of Diamond Consultants. Neither Diamond Consultants nor the guests on this podcast are compensated in any way for their participation. View the transcript of this episode… Build, Grow & Transact: Making the Leap from Northwestern Mutual to a $20B Enterprise A conversation between Louis Diamond, Andy Schwartz, CEO of OnePoint BFG Wealth Partners and Kevin Spahn, Founder of Spahn Financial (now OnePoint BFG). Louis Diamond: Welcome to the latest episode of our podcast series for financial advisors. Today’s episode is Build, Grow & Transact: Making the Leap from Northwestern Mutual to a $20B Enterprise. It’s a conversation with Andy Schwartz, CEO of OnePoint BFG Wealth Partners, and Kevin Spahn, founder of Spahn Financial, now OnePoint BFG. I’m Louis Diamond, and this is The Diamond Podcast for Financial Advisors. Mindy Diamond: At Diamond Consultants, we help elite advisors identify the right environment for their businesses to thrive, whether that’s at a wirehouse, boutique, or independent firm. With nearly three decades of experience, we’ve guided thousands of advisors and represented more than a quarter of a trillion dollars in assets transitioned. Each year, one in four advisors managing a billion dollars or more who change firms are our clients. Our process is education-driven and based on building relationships, starting as your strategic partner well before you’re even thinking of a move. To schedule a confidential conversation, call us at 908-879-1002. Wondering why advisors change firms and where they’re headed? Are transition deals going up or down? Those very questions, and more, inspired us to create our annual Advisor Transition Report. It’s the award-winning data-driven resource designed for advisors that connects the dots between the motivations around movement and the firm’s appetite for top talent. Arm yourself with the knowledge you need to make smart decisions. Download your copy at diamond-consultants.com/transitionreport. Louis Diamond: There’s a big difference between building a successful practice and building an enterprise. I think Andy Schwartz and Kevin Spahn offer a unique perspective on that distinction from two very different sides. Both spent decades in the Northwestern Mutual system. Andy ultimately left to build what became OnePoint BFG Wealth Partners, taking the firm from roughly three billion to nearly 20 billion and transforming just about every aspect of the business along the way. Kevin built one of Northwestern Mutual’s top practices before reaching a different inflection point, deciding what he wanted the next phase of his career and business to look like. Rather than go independent on his own or simply monetize what he had built, he chose to become part of Andy’s growing enterprise. That makes their story particularly relevant for our Build, Grow, and Transact series. Andy can speak to what it takes to build a firm capable of becoming an acquirer, from converting advisors from 1099s to W-2s, to creating equity opportunities, to bringing in outside capital while remaining very deliberate about being private equity-invested rather than private equity-owned. And Kevin brings the seller’s perspective, how you evaluate the economics, the trade-offs, and ultimately the people you’re trusting with the business you spent more than 30 years building. Because whether you’re building, buying, or considering a transaction of any kind, the numbers are only part of the equation. As you hear from both Andy and Kevin, trust may be the most important currency of all. So let’s get to it. Andy and Kevin, thank you so much for both joining us today. Andy Schwartz: Great to see you again, Lewis. Thank you for having us. Louis Diamond: I’ve been excited about this interview for a bunch of reasons. One, our Build, Grow, Transact series has become a real staple of our show and we got lots to talk about there. But also, the friendship, the relationship that you two have had for over 30 years really stood out to me. So before we get into the nuts and bolts, talk about your relationship. How’d you guys meet, and how did your career stay so intertwined together when you’re in different geographies and at different firms, and have each been very successful in your own rights? Andy Schwartz: Sure. Kevin, do you want to start with that? Kevin Spahn: Sure. I started in this career in 1994 and met Andy sometime after that. He was a more advanced financial planner. I was an attorney, and then I transitioned into this business. So when I first joined Northwestern Mutual, which is my first broker dealer, I didn’t really have a background in investments. At the time, a lot of Northwestern Mutual reps were learning the investment business because they maybe originally started with Northwestern Mutual focusing more on insurance planning. My background was more estate planning. At the time, if you think early ’90s, if you did estate planning, insurance often went hand in hand with that. The estate exemption in early 1990s was about $600,000. So if you pass more than $600,000 to your children, there was a 55% tax. One way around it was to put insurance in an irrevocable trust, help cover the tax that way. So it really was a popular common strategy back then, and it’s really what got me into the business. But I quickly realized that I didn’t want my future to be insurance and estate planning. And there was a conflict if you acted as someone’s attorney and sold insurance. So I had to pick one way or the other. I decided long-term it would be better for me to move into the wealth management space. But with that little background in that, I had a lot of work to do. So took a lot of tests, became a certified financial planner. But the person that helped me the most along the way was Andy. We became friends, we sat on committees together. That’s really how we met, I would say. So we worked side by side interacting with our home office and representing the field, bringing issues to the home office that we thought were beneficial to the field. As we did that together, I got to know Andy. And then separately, I learned from him how he built his business and how they would review clients’ portfolios and come up with solutions. So I really credit Andy with helping me more than anyone else to transition from attorney, financial planner doing more estate planning insurance to wealth management. Louis Diamond: Very cool. Hey, I would say, maybe I’m a little biased, that, Kevin, you picked the right path in hanging up the law shingle and coming into wealth management. Kevin Spahn: I tell a lot of people I’m a reformed attorney. Andy Schwartz: Great. Louis Diamond: Exactly. My dad would say the exact same thing. Very common at dinner tables in the Diamond households. Andy Schwartz: I was always grateful that I wasn’t smart enough to be an attorney. Louis Diamond: There we go. Andy Schwartz: That’s where my gratitude lies. Yeah. Louis Diamond: There we go. Andy Schwartz: Some would say he’s too smart. Louis Diamond: There we go. Andy, question for you. I mean, anyone who is at or was at Northwestern Mutual, I mean, you’re like Elvis to them. It’s absolutely crazy the amount of fanfare and brand recognition that you and your brother Scott have. But for those who maybe missed your first podcast appearance with us a number of years ago, or aren’t or weren’t within the Northwestern Mutual system, or haven’t been familiar with Bleakley and now OnePoint BFG, just give us the cliff notes, the origin story, how you got into the business, and how’d you get from here to there? Andy Schwartz: Yeah. So the origin is probably pretty common, probably by accident. Going into my senior year in college, I was working in a restaurant, had a falling out with my boss. I happened to be dating a woman who was living with a general agent with Fidelity Union Life. No one will have ever heard of Fidelity Union Life, but their secret sauce was they sold life insurance to college seniors on a note. So if you can get a $10 money order, because where I went to school, nobody had a checking account, then you could basically get a note signed and they would buy insurance. And then when they graduate, hopefully they’d pay for it. I started selling life insurance my senior year in college. And then my twin brother Scott, who is my partner, and has been for over 40 years, he took an interview with what was the nucleus of our present firm actually. I just went up to Northern New Jersey in May of 1984 because I was an expert. I had been selling life insurance to college kids for six months, so I knew everything you had to know. We met with these guys, and we both ended up joining them. So that was a Northwestern Mutual district agency, and that was 1984. We got licensed right away. I got my CFP in ’86. We always knew that it was going to be about planning. So I think we had the right idea. We were a little ahead of the curve because there weren’t a lot of CFPs in ’86. We got securities license immediately. So before Northwestern had securities license, we got securities license with US Life actually. And then it was really a volume business, a client-building business. We always tried to act as a firm and share resources. We were small, but like a lot of people, we started out selling A shares and B shares and C shares, doing financial planning, selling insurance, and then we made a lot of really good hires along the way. And then after 30 years at Northwestern Mutual, which was a great experience for me, and I have nothing but respect for the institution and certainly the advisors that are there, Kevin certainly was one of them, and I know he feels the same way, but we just wanted to have a little more flexibility. We went independent about 11, almost 12 years ago. We wanted to be able to be multi-custodial. We wanted to have a little bit more optionality for our clients and for ourselves. We left Northwestern at three billion or so in assets, and that was in 2015. It’s in March of 2024, I get introduced to this guy with a crazy accent named Joe Duran. Funny, probably the only person in the industry that had no idea who Joe Duran was me. I’d never heard of Joe Duran. I don’t pay attention. I worry about our firm. I don’t worry about what’s going on outside. So I get introduced to Joe by a mutual friend, and we had an interesting conversation, and it took us probably about four or five months to figure out what we wanted to do. And then in August of ’24, myself and my three partners, we rolled in. And then in ’85, the rest of the firm rolled in. And we can talk a little bit more about that. Today we’re 18-plus billion, growing quite a bit. We’ve been very lucky that we’ve made some very good decisions along the way. We’ve made some bad ones too. But most of the decisions had to do with the people that we hired, the people that we brought on to help us, because I think it’s really important. I always say that the biggest mistake advisors make is they buy their own bullshit, and I try not to, and I realize that I’m smart enough, but I’m certainly not the smartest guy. I’m rarely the smartest guy in the room. So what we try to do is hire lots and lots of really smart people. And we’ve done that. They’ve been loyal to us, we’ve been loyal to them. Yeah, so we’re blessed to have a really great team and lots of good partners. Yeah. Louis Diamond: Yeah, we’ll definitely get into more of the nuts and bolts of the decision to take on capital, partner with Joe Duran’s Rise, but that’s an amazing background. Andy, I have to give you credit because your style, and I think I’m sure there’s business benefits, but it comes from a good place, I’m sure. But the coaching and consulting and just assistance that I’ve heard you provide to so many past and current Northwestern Mutual advisors through sports camps is absolutely incredible. It’s very near and dear to my heart because we always try to lead with education and helping people. So I just wanted to call that out, that your reputation for just providing amazing guidance and coaching to advisors is unparalleled. Andy Schwartz: And it’s been the best part of our journey. We’ve been able to help so many people. We get way too much credit by the way. So everybody gives us way too much credit. But the way I look at it is, I’ve been able to leverage my life because I’ve been able to build a great life for myself and my family, but we’ve been able to leverage that, and that’s where the real gift is. So yeah, it’s been a joyful journey for us. Louis Diamond: Amazing. Kevin, question for you. You walked through your little bit unorthodox background to get into Northwestern. Can you talk about where your personal practice is today? And then I want to ask you about the decision to leave Northwestern and sell and team up with Andy and team. Kevin Spahn: Well, I have to go back to the beginning. What was attractive to me about this business is I went from a career which was confrontational adversarial. I was a trial attorney for six years, and every day I would fight with people over things I didn’t necessarily have a personal interest in and I didn’t really believe in always. But the adversarial confrontational nature wasn’t really my personality, and I would take it too personally. So sometimes I’d go home in a bad mood because I was fighting with somebody taking a deposition. At night, after so many years as a trial attorney, I started going to people’s houses and doing wills and trusts. And that’s where the dynamic of working with a client or a potential client, feeling that you helped them and walking out of the meeting where they would appreciate what you did for them, and you build a relationship and actually all of a sudden have a friend, that dynamic was attractive to me. That’s really what got me to transition into the business. So I think it was really helpful to me at the beginning of this career. As Andy said, we all grew our businesses one client at a time. There’s a lot of doors closed, phones hung up on. There’s many people that don’t want to talk to you. There’s many people that don’t call you back. There’s many people that you think you’re getting somewhere with and you don’t. And that’s difficult for people because people often, young reps take that as personal rejection. I had the benefit of comparing what I was dealing with as a young financial planner to what I had dealt with as an attorney in litigation. I think it just was perspective that I knew I didn’t want to do that anymore. So the negatives to this business didn’t seem that bad to me. I loved the independence. I loved all the relationships that I was building. And that part of it is to this day my favorite part of the business. When you ask about the present, what basically happens is you start out taking anybody and everybody as a potential client or as someone that you would be willing to work with. And then over time you work with more successful people. So where I’m at today is working with pretty successful people, but they’re all the same, meaning we like working with nice people. If people are nice, we work with them. I feel we can help anybody. Over the years, one client at a time. The thing that I probably, if I could go back, would change is I think Andy and I are both good at meeting people and building trust and providing value, so that’s why they work with us. So I think that’s just something we’ve both been able to do. He’s much better than I am at building an organization. So I built an organization basically hiring people, that whenever we got too busy, I hired another person. Drawback in terms of that is, anybody that I interview I think is great, and I think they’d be great to join the organization. I like them all. In spite of that, I’ve also brought in many good people that I love. At this point, my firm has 18 people. We’re a little subset of Andy’s larger firm. I think one of the most attractive things to me about joining Andy’s firm is what Andy mentioned before: the people. As opposed to me having to build this all out myself, going independent, Andy already did that. And he has the infrastructure that would allow me to just merge right into that and not have to go through the pain of figuring all that out, which I don’t even think I’m capable of, to be honest with you. Louis Diamond: You’re probably selling yourself short because the way I understood it, you had one of the top practices within the entire Northwestern Mutual systems, and it’s a firm filled with very successful advisors. For you, Kevin, what was the driving force to leaving NM after all these years? What was bothering you or frustrating you that indicated to you that it was time to do something different? Kevin Spahn: To be honest with you, I was pretty happy at Northwestern Mutual. I love the company and the people. I still have many good friends there that I truly miss. The big thing for me, I don’t know if it was any one thing, to be honest with you, is Andy said there’s optionality, especially on the investment side. I think one of the things that happened to me is, when I first started, I was 31 years old, and most of the potential clients that I would meet and work with, they weren’t what I would call today great investment clients. They didn’t have a lot of money. They had great futures. They might’ve been earning significant income or on the way to earning significant income. So what did they need at that point in their life? They needed planning. They needed protection. They didn’t really need investment management because most of their investments were going into their 401(k). But a lot of those clients that we would take on, and I think that’s the big advantage of Northwestern Mutual, you take on clients that a lot of the investor firms don’t want because they don’t have large investment portfolios. But at some point down the road, all of a sudden you wake up and they do have large investment portfolios. So you bring them in as clients that might buy life insurance from you or disability insurance or something like that. And then you help them, and you give them advice, and you build a relationship with them. Down the road, they make more and more money. They leave jobs, they roll 401(k)s, they have the ability to invest money, stock options, things like that. Next thing you’re doing more comprehensive planning that incorporates investments. As that progresses even further, you work with larger and larger clients, much more significant net worth, more complexity, bigger tax issues. Some of the strategies and opportunities that we now have at this independent RIA are very attractive for these high-net-worth clients. Along the same lines, less of what I do at this point in my career is insurance, mostly because a lot of the people that I meet are older, they already bought insurance, they’re looking more for investment advice as opposed to insurance. So one of the things that most attracted me to Northwest Mutual was their strong insurance products, which helped me for many years. As time went on, I was doing less of that. Louis Diamond: Makes complete sense. So it was a changing of what clients wanted and just the circumstances of your clients where you said, “What got me here when I was 31 was insurance planning, and that’s what my clients needed. But as my practice has evolved, I’ve aged, my clients are older, have more money, the focus shifted from insurance to investments.” And then the distinction was, am I at the best place to run investments in addition to insurance planning, et cetera? It’s a very interesting dynamic. Just the shift in basically your legacy clients was what drove you to consider change. Kevin Spahn: That was a big factor. I think the second big factor was I had my own firm with 18 people. My succession plan was that at some point I would shift ownership of the firm to people that worked with me. So as they owned more of the firm, they would have revenue that was currently at the time being paid to me. In my mind, as it shifted to them, they would buy me out using revenue from the clients that we already had. And I realized that there were some issues with that. In our business, as you get older, in your client’s age, they start taking money out of their portfolios. So everyone understands that in our business, the younger average age client you have makes your book more valuable. I was the biggest driver of new business at my firm, and I started to see that there were some problems with my succession plan. They included, if something happened to me during this succession, that would be a real problem for the people that were buying my business from me if I went that way. If something happened to some of my key people, that would’ve been a problem as well. So it was really attractive to me to… I wasn’t looking to sell my business, I was looking to merge it. So I merged it with Andy’s business. I believe that Andy and what he’s put together and the actual idea of having partners. So I never really had partners, but now I do. Having partners that we’re all on the same page, we all have similar backgrounds, we all bring something different to the table, and we can learn and benefit from working with each other. But also, owning a little piece of a much larger firm was, number one, it put me in a better position in terms of the potential risk of something happening to me or one of my key people. But secondly, I just think it’s more likely to grow at a greater pace than my firm would’ve as I aged from my 60s to my 70s. Louis Diamond: Very interesting. It’s a great realization. I think it’s one that probably every firm owner grapples with at some point, is the romanticism or the ease, some would say, of an internal succession plan. Rewarding those who have helped you build the firm is something I think everyone is interested in. But once that’s put into practice, whether it’s because of capital or sky-high valuations or right people on the bus or risk, et cetera, nowadays oftentimes leads to a firm owner looking at a transaction, whether it’s a merger, a sale, a private equity, capital infusion as a means to solve for succession. So it’s a very interesting way you framed it. Andy, I want to turn it over to you for a little bit. So you mentioned when you launched Bleakley Financial, which was the old name of your firm, out of Northwestern, you’re about three billion. I think I read that you’re about 10 billion or so when Joe Duran and Rise invested you in 2024. You just said you’re at 18 billion now in the middle of 2026. That is absolutely incredible and amazing. Andy Schwartz: We’ll be well over 20 by the end of the year without any additional organic growth. Louis Diamond: That’s absolutely incredible. Andy Schwartz: We’ve got a lot going on right now. Louis Diamond: What’s actually driven that? What’s been the playbook? Andy Schwartz: The three areas that are most important for us, and we had our town hall this morning, and we always talk about the things we focus on as a group, the first and most important is the client experience. I always say to people, if you are their advisor, then that means someone else isn’t. These people, they all deserve to be really well taken care of. They deserve the best service, they deserve the best advice. So that’s something we take really personally. So client experience first. Then we also understand that we don’t just work for clients, we work for our advisors. So I have two jobs. I have, I don’t know, 500 clients I service with my team, and I work for Kevin and 36 other partners and all of our employees. Because again, I recognize that the decision Kevin made… We’re in the middle of a transition out with another advisor, and we pretty much talk to her every day, and I know how hard this is. A transition is so difficult. When you come from a good place, because any of the Northwestern advisor who joins, they’re coming from a good place, it’s not like they have to go anywhere, it’s difficult. So we have the massive responsibility that three or four or five or 10 years from now, that there better be hugs around that this was the best decision ever made or otherwise. That’s the kind of thing that keeps me up at night. So we’ve got to take care of our client experience, we’ve got to take care of our advisor experience. And then obviously, we’ve got to grow the firm so the firm grows organically. So part of this whole idea of serving our advisors is we have to help our advisors grow. I talk to a lot of people on the acquisition side, and if I’m talking to an advisor, it doesn’t matter how big they are, we kind of think of it as a OnePoint way. There’s flexibility in the OnePoint way. But if I can’t help them grow, I don’t want them, because I say it all the time, I’m not the mafia. I’m not here to get a taste. Louis, if you weren’t interested in joining us, if I thought that we could help you grow by doing that, then I want you bad. If I don’t think I can help you grow because we’re so different, or because you’re not going to adapt what we do, or there’s no leverage in it, or you’re already better than we are, I don’t want it. So for us, organic growth, number one, and I think you know the industries well enough, that’s got to be the key. We shoot for 10% organic growth. We’re at a little over 5% so far halfway through the year. So assuming we have the similar second half of the year, we’ll hit our 10. Last year we’re at 7.5%. The second is the inorganic growth. If you truly build a platform, if you truly build a firm that advisors know that they’ll be supported, that they’ll be loved, and you’ll help them grow their businesses, it does make it easier for us. We’re not the highest bidder typically. We can’t. We respect our client’s capital, we respect their equity, so therefore we’re not going to go out there. We’re not an aggregator, we’re a firm. But I think that if we can get that message across, and I think we have, then advisors join us. So that’s been a big part of the growth. And then the market’s helped. Obviously, over the last two years, the market’s been helpful. So that’s how we’ve gone from 10 to 18 and on our way to 22 by year-end. Louis Diamond: This is absolutely incredible. Any advisor or firm owner would say organic growth is important, but just saying it’s important doesn’t mean it’s going to happen. So what are the ways in which you help your advisors or your own practice grow organically? What is it that OnePoint is doing for your advisors? Andy Schwartz: Starting with bringing on growth-oriented advisors. I mean, look, Kevin Spahn and I come from the same place. We learned how to sell. The great thing about coming out of whether they’re broker dealers or out of the different insurance BDs is, these are people that know how to sell. These are people that don’t think that selling is a bad word. A lot of times you go to the wirehouses and they’re not necessarily sales guys. They’re really smart. They think that they’re investment mavens and investment geniuses. I’m not interested in investment geniuses. I’m interested in people that want to take care of their clients, provide everything they can, clients first, do the proper planning, be good advisors, but they’re growth-oriented. So as long as we’re talking with the right advisors. Again, if I’m talking to advisor and they might have a big practice, if they’re not growers, we’re not interested. There’s a sense of responsibility for all the partners because we are a true partnership. It’s not an aggregation. This is a firm. I’m responsible for Kevin. Kevin’s responsible to me. All of our partners are responsible to each other, because if we’re going to do a 10% organic growth target, and if some partner is negative 3%, we don’t put them through the spanking machine, but everybody is very aware of where everybody is and nobody wants to let their partners down. I think either you’re a growth-oriented advisor or you’re a zoo-fed bear. There’s another expression that I got from another Rise Growth Partner or Rise Growth firm. We all kind of communicate and talk to each other. And I was talking about zoo-fed bears, and he said, we call them house cats that think they fight. So they’re house cats, but they have no claws. But I think if you’re careful about who you bring on as partners, and if they are workers, growers, they understand that their job in life is to serve the people. We talk about referrals, we do lots of training to help on referrals. We work on organic growth strategies from the firm, but a lot of it comes from the advisors themselves. Louis Diamond: Makes sense. So it sounds like, to boil it down, it’s being really selective and having a really clear sense of who’s the right fit for your firm. Not that there’s not amazing advisors out there, but just because you’re an amazing advisor, doesn’t mean you’re the right fit to join OnePoint. Andy Schwartz: I think the one big distinction and difference is other than the fact that we are minority-owned with private equity. So we own our business. I mean, I’m the CEO of the firm. I also have the biggest book in the firm. At least for right now, I mean, Kevin was transitioning, so I’m sure next year he’ll be the leading advisor. But I lead the firm, because as far as I’m concerned, you have to lead by example. We are completely aligned. I know exactly what Kevin does every day because I do the same thing. I’m not some attorney or accountant or private equity boss that’s saying, “Oh, I’ve got an idea for growth. We’ll just raise our fees by 5%.” Brilliant. Yeah, we are completely aligned, all of us. I think that makes us a little bit unique, and it really helps us, I think, in our growth trajectory. Louis Diamond: I would agree. The challenge that a lot of advisors-turned-firm-owners or turned-enterprise-builders have is the tug of war between the client work, which either is their ultimate passion and driving force, or it’s something they’re really good at minimum, versus being the owner, the operator, et cetera. I resonate very much, Andy, with the way you handle it. I do the same thing running a company, but also working with advisors. To me, I need to do both in order to do my job well. But that tug of war is tough. So I’m curious, your firm is very large now, you’re a steward of external capital, and you have a $3 billion book yourself. How do you do it? How do you balance the two? Andy Schwartz: Well, fortunately, my kids are grown, so I’m not coaching sports anymore. So I do have a little more time than most. Look, we have a great team. So the idea that I run the firm… I mean, I lead the firm, I don’t run the firm. We have great partners. We have great… Our manager team is fantastic. So I mean, they really run the firm. But this is where my passion is for now. So I don’t mind. Days are typically pretty long. I don’t play golf during the week. Mara and I don’t travel probably as much as we should. Vacations are always a little bit mixed. There’s always room for calls and meetings and whatever. But to me, I mean, I’m grateful to be in this situation. I’m enjoying it. This is such a privilege to be the person that people recognize as the leader of this bunch, of this group. I mean, it is the honor of my life. So I don’t think of it so much as work. It’s my advocation. It does get busy. There are some times where I have to remind myself, “Just enjoy the ride.” I get a little overwhelmed, but I get lots of help and that makes it possible. Louis Diamond: Yep. If you’re not doing the job of the folks that you’re encouraging and leading to do, how do you have fodder to train them, to teach them, to empathize with that? Andy Schwartz: Exactly, you don’t have the credibility. I can ask them to do almost anything because they know I do it myself, and I think that helps. Louis Diamond: Yep. So moving more into the decision to bring on private equity capital, what I thought was probably the most interesting component of your announcement that you took on PE investment was that you completely restructured or reoriented your firm prior to Joe Duran coming in 2024. Correct me if I’m wrong, but Bleakley Financial Group was almost all 1099 contractors. So everyone owned their own books of business, paid Bleakley a fee or an override for certain services. But now, today, over 85% of your advisors and your AUM are W-2 employees, meaning you converted them from 1099 to acquiring them or merging with them. To me, that’s the dream. It’s had to have been very, very, very hard and challenging because there’s so many aggregator firms or platforms that support independent advisors, but the value that they’ve created is fairly minimal relative to one cohesive firm. So can you just talk about that decision, a very big and brave decision to go down the path of acquiring or merging with the practices rather than letting them continue to operate independently? Andy Schwartz: Well, look, we had to… It’s funny because we had been having conversations for years with consultants, and they kept telling us what we had to do. Again, we’re not that smart, so we just kept thinking, “No, we don’t have to do that.” But we were told 10 years earlier that the only way that this thing has any value to the world is you’ve got to have EBITDA for the firm. We talked to all the smart people, we ignored all of them. But what happened was we needed capital and we needed equity in order to bring people on, because people aren’t just joining us just because we can help them grow a bigger business. So the reason we went in the direction we went initially was we just needed capital. We wanted to grow the firm, and the only way we were going to get to is… What’s the old saying? What got us here is not going to get us there. So we needed capital. But we also realized that I had to have something I could sell in the marketplace. And people want equity. So they want cash, but they also want equity, because we’re talking to entrepreneurs. Kevin owned his own firm. He has $2 billion of assets. He wasn’t interested in being someone’s employee, but he was interested in being able to get leverage and be a partner and share equity in a larger firm that had the chance to grow even more. So what the gift that Joe Duran, the Rise folks gave us was that gift of structure and understanding. So that was really helpful, and that’s been a big part of our success. Louis Diamond: Yeah, it’s an amazing journey. Again, I think you could probably write a book or a case study on how that happened. I’m sure there were some downfalls, some people that weren’t all that excited about it, but the results speak for itself. Andy Schwartz: I think people ask all the time because I do get phone calls. People are trying to do this, and they’re struggling. It took us 90 days to basically do it. People say, “I’ve been at this for two years.” And the biggest issue is trust. Either they trust you or they don’t. At the end of the day, I always went to the advisor here, we were a firm for 30-plus years prior, and these guys knew that we always did what we said we were going to do, and we always did. If your people trust you, then you can do it. If your people don’t trust you, it isn’t going to work. Louis Diamond: In other words, your firm added immense value to the advisors as well. Aside from trust, if you weren’t providing a service or services that they found a value that they couldn’t access on their own, it would’ve been 85/15 going the other way for sure. Andy Schwartz: Yeah, 100%. I know it’s not easy, but it wasn’t that hard for us. Louis Diamond: Good. It’s well-earned. So I believe you were Rise Growth Partners’ first investment. Andy Schwartz: We were. Louis Diamond: That’s cool. It’s exciting. You get to be someone’s first, but did it make you uncomfortable that you were the first investment or did you see that as a positive? Andy Schwartz: I actually saw it as a positive. Well, one, because I recognized immediately that Joe Duran and his team were way smarter than we were certainly, and certainly with what we were trying to do. And I figured that it’s almost like the first child. They were so excited to have somebody, and there was so much time and energy, so they just really doted on us. They were really able to help us. Now they’ve got four or five groups that they work with, and obviously we’ve been launched. So the younger babies are getting more time and attention, although we get everything that we need from them. But yeah, that never concerned me. I always thought that would be our advantage. It actually turned out that way. Louis Diamond: Interesting. In thinking through a sale or a minority sale, did you entertain other types of capital, whether it was a family office or a multitude of other private equity sponsors or selling the firm outright? Andy Schwartz: Yeah, we probably had four or five very, very serious conversations. Actually, some got pretty close to the end where we basically just made the decision not to do it. One was a much larger firm, good people. But the problem always was… I was always going to get rich out of the deal because it was going to be 100% sale, but there was really no lift or leverage from the advisors. So the principals, they were willing to pay me a big multiple and my partners a big multiple, and pay these guys basically an average multiple. So we had always told our guys, “Let’s stay together, and someday, this thing, whatever it’s going to turn into be, will benefit everyone.” So with the Duran situation and the deal with Rise did, it gave everybody a chance to benefit from what we were doing. But what was good about all of those false starts was, it taught me a lot because I had… I know you’re involved in this, so you know better than I do, but we’d start conversations, somebody would reach out to me, I would be very specific about what I needed. They would say, “Yep, we can do that.” And then you get to the finish line, and it’s almost like, I started out, I wanted a tomahawk steak and a baked potato, and I ended up getting a two-day-old hamburger with some cold French fries. It’s like, I know I’m not that smart and I know you’re the PE guys, but for God’s sakes, we’re not stupid. So it was funny because in January of ’24, I told my partners, “I don’t want to have any more of these conversations. It was a waste of time and energy. I’m sick of talking to these people. Let’s just put our heads down, and then let’s grow the firm a little bit more, and then we’ll see what the world looks like.” And then I get introduced to Duran. Louis Diamond: Perfect. Makes sense. Yeah, so you were well-educated on the market, the types of buyers, and I always say it’s almost more important to understand what you don’t want more than what you do want. The only way oftentimes to understand what you don’t want is to experience it and touch and feel it and really get into the weeds on it. I like too, Andy, I saw in an article, you said that “we’re private equity invested, we’re not private equity owned,” which is a very cool dynamic. I could imagine why that was important to you to retain majority control. Kevin, I want to bring you back into the conversation. Thank you for being patient here. But I mean, I would imagine you had some real choices. I mean, you could have stayed at Northwestern and been very successful, gone through with your internal succession plan. You could have gone to an independent BD, monetized, figured out succession later. You could have sold the business to a strategic acquirer. You were big enough to take on an investor in some capacity on your own. So options wasn’t your problem. Maybe just walk us through. Did you consider any other pathways? And what were the pros and cons in your mind that led you to doing a transaction with Andy? Kevin Spahn: I’m a little different, I think, than most people in this industry. Even as you grow your business at a certain percentage, none of that stuff has ever really meant anything to me. All I know is I like what I do. So when I came into the business, because I like it, I enjoy it, I spend time doing it, I’ve tried to get better at it. But it comes naturally because it’s something that I don’t look at Monday mornings as, “Oh, no, it’s Monday morning.” I’m excited to go to work. My entire career, once I left law, my business has just grown over the years naturally. But you said something before, Louis, and I think this applies to me. I love to work with the clients. I don’t like what I have to do in terms of running the firm. I never have. It’s never been my cup of tea, but you have to do it if you run a firm. So number one, the thought of all the due diligence that I would have to do to research all the firms out there, I wasn’t really all that interested in doing that. At the end of the day, it comes down to this word trust. I trust Andy. I trust the other partners here too, because I’ve known not just Andy, but I’ve known Scott and many of the other partners for years. So I knew what I was getting myself into. At the end of the day, I knew what they built. I was very comfortable with it, and I was either going to stay at Northwestern Mutual or I was going to come here, but I wasn’t going to go anywhere else. I will say, since I’ve gone, it’s been exactly like I thought. I thought I trusted Andy. And if something happened along the way with the transition, everything that he said has been true, thing that he promised is real. As you deal with more complexities with a bigger book and more and more employees, I knew that I was almost at the breaking point in terms of my own organization and to merge into this organization that, as I said before, he’s already built out. I don’t have to do it. And to benefit from these great people that he has as part of his organization, that’s all been a real blessing for me and my team. So I didn’t shop the marketplace really, but I knew what I was getting into, and it’s worked out clear as I thought it would. Louis Diamond: That’s amazing. I think that’s what most people would covet. But it is a decision in and of itself to not shop the marketplace. I mean, from representing buyers or prospective buyers, I know the pricing leverage or the negotiation leverage and the valuation lift that comes from having an open market, having multiple bids, et cetera. It sounds like that wasn’t the… Obviously you wanted to get fair value for your firm, but for you, it was more, it’s trust, “I’m either going to just stay at Northwestern, which is the devil I know or it’s what I’ve known where I’ve been successful, or I’m going to go to the individual that I trust and forget about all the other noise.” Kevin Spahn: Well, Andy says things, but I know they’re true because I’ve seen him at work. I’ve seen how he’s acted. I’ve seen how he interacts with people. But here’s an example. He cares about the people that are at his firm. He says that, but I know it’s true because I see it. I’m the same. I really care about the people in my firm. So as I think about, well, what about the future of two groups, my clients, but also the people that work in my firm? They’re going to be around long after I am. Well, I don’t want myself to retire someday, get a big check, because there’s all sorts of options to get a check. If I get a check and then my client’s scatter to the wind, and my employees don’t really have a future and they just have to go and find their own way, that wasn’t attractive at all to me. So one of the things that I really appreciate about this opportunity is that there is a plan for both my clients and my employees or the younger team members at formerly Spahn Financial, where I feel very good about the fact that they have a solid, secure future in an industry that they’ve all grown to love without them having to go out and make their own way. Louis Diamond: Makes sense to me. We noted a couple of times in this interview, you talked about equity, partnership, both of you have. So Kevin, for you, what did it mean differently for you to become a partner and get equity in a larger firm rather than, we’ll say, the less risky move of just taking everything in cash? Why was that an important distinction for you? Kevin Spahn: For many years, when I left law and came into this business, I didn’t have any money at the time. I was just starting to make money as a lawyer. It takes a while. I started low. I got trial experience working for the government, so they didn’t pay much. That was three years. Then I was at a firm, and I was just starting to make more money. Then I made this big shift into a career that was all commissions. Well, even with what I thought was good early success, it took years till I really had any money in the bank or till I could actually tell my wife what we had in the bank because I really didn’t want her to know before promoting with her. But I never was really worried about the future because I could see what it looked like. I also knew that I loved what I did every day, and I knew what it would lead to. It’s always been a part of my own career path that I got to the point somewhere along the way where I knew I had enough money. Somewhere along the way, I realized I could retire if I wanted to. Here’s the good news. I don’t want to. I like what I do. So it really wasn’t about the biggest check or anything like that. But when I go back to this analysis, well, how did I bring in business before? If you do a good job and the clients appreciate the work you do, they refer you to their friends. So that would happen. That’s how we grew our business. But as I think about, “Well, I now have two grandchildren. I’d like to spend time with them. I have four children. They’re all going to get married and have kids,” I see over the next whatever, 10 or 15 years, I will want more flexibility. Andy and I both work pretty long hours right now. Won’t have the time for that. So what’ll happen? Well, at some point, I think the new business generation will slow down a little bit. And as I said before, as our clients age, some of the money starts coming out, that all affects the value of your book. I feel pretty comfortable that the combination of what we’re doing and all my partners and then this firm that Andy’s built, I think that the growth will be pretty strong over the next 5, 10 years. So part of my thought process was I’m trusting in that and I’m buying into that. At the end of the day, I’m comfortable that the combination of what this is going to ultimately do for my clients and then my team, and then the value of my ownership compared to what I would’ve done on my own, the combination of it all is a really good solution for where I was a year ago. Louis Diamond: That sounds like it. I mean, I feel like the equity ownership dynamic, especially equity in a firm other than yourself, it’s either something that advisors get really charged up about because they see what you saw, Kevin. “I’m diversifying. It’s not just my growth, it’s everyone’s growth, that this asset, this equity has the ability to grow and scale quicker, more efficiently than just me.” At the same time, it’s probably the hardest decision for folks to step over the threshold and say, “I’ve been responsible for my growth, the value of my firm. If they’re independent already, I decide distributions, who to hire, et cetera. It’s for better or worse, it’s me and I’ve trusted myself.” So just getting comfortable with equity in someone else and taking your hands off the wheel a little bit is not something that everyone gets comfortable with. But it sounds like, for you, it was the absolute right decision for all the reasons you laid out. Kevin Spahn: You just laid it out perfectly. Years ago, I was going to bring in a junior partner. I was working with this guy, I was training him, teaching him, and he was planning on joining my firm as a junior partner. And then he started asking me what I paid everybody and why I paid these people that much money. I realized right then and there, the last thing I want to do is bring on someone who’s going to own 10% of my firm, and then they’re going to start complaining about what I pay everybody else. I didn’t want to have to make that decision with anybody. It is a special person that I would ever be comfortable becoming a partner with. There are obviously many partners in this firm, but it comes down to the fact that my relationship with Andy as the managing partner and he has a lot of the influence in the firm. It really is trust. And I’ll say, my wife has known Andy a long time, and she trusts him as well. So for years, she would ask me, “What about Andy?” We would talk here and there about his firm, and she’s always been very comfortable with Andy and this potential move. Louis Diamond: There we go. Yeah, the actual decision dynamic was, your wife was comfortable. Kevin Spahn: Exactly. She was my secret weapon the whole time. Louis Diamond: There we go. Andy, I can guess the answer just from doing this conversation, but when you bought Kevin, I don’t know if it’s still true, but at the time, at least, he was your largest deal, and it was the first time you’re entering the Chicagoland area. What was it about Kevin and his practice that made you get to a yes? Andy Schwartz: Listen, I’ve talked to Kevin. I mean, Kevin and I stayed in touch. So for the 11 years, one of the few advisors that I maintained a real relationship with was Kevin. I never really thought he would join me, but I couldn’t help myself because Kevin was the best advisor in the system and the best person in the system. Truth is, I think Kevin did what he did as much as anything. If it was a good financial decision, he wanted to be able to give more money away someday. That’s how Kevin operates. So I’ve always been just a huge fan. I would tease him. When I would joke with him, I would always ask him, “So when are we going to come partners?” And we’ve had our own inside joke, which we’re working on right now, right, Kev, which we’ll work on later this afternoon. So we’ve always had our deal. And then I got to tell you, it was probably, it’s still sometimes I wake up, and I can’t believe how fortunate that he actually did it. So yeah, forgetting about size, I mean, yeah, huge practice, our biggest acquisition, Chicago’s a great market, but I mean, it’s a one in a million. It was hard for him because the Northwestern Mutual didn’t want to lose him. So it was a very difficult decision because I think everybody felt the same way. So no, we’re blessed to have him. His team, he’s got a great team, made our firm better, and this is the best part of the journey for me. Louis Diamond: Amazing. Two more questions for you guys. I’m going to let you get on with your busy days. This would be for either or both of you. So for a Northwestern Mutual advisor, or let’s say any advisor within an insurance BD or who has some sort of proverbial golden handcuffs, whether it’s insurance renewals or pension or a very large unvested deferred compensation balance, really you can pick anything, many of these folks think they’re stuck. Might be unhappy. They might see promise elsewhere, but they can’t reconcile leaving something behind. Another example would be mutual fund trails through proprietary products or a bunch of alts where the trails aren’t going to carry over. What is it you’d want those individuals to understand about what’s actually possible or the mindset of leaving something behind to go run towards something else? Andy Schwartz: Well, I mean, look, the issue is… Look, there’s a number that can be too big to make sense to never leave. So people could be truly stuck. Renewals run out. And as you do less premium as you get older, the renewals get smaller. So renewals to me are a non-issue. I always like to talk to advisors of how much bigger. Our thing is we think we can grow your practice twice as fast and half the time. So if that’s true, and if you believe that’s true, then there’s math on that side, and you just compare the math to what you’re losing. Everybody that we’ve brought on, everybody makes more money, and they’ve more than made up for what they give up. That doesn’t mean though that someone doesn’t have such a golden handcuff or some program that is so substantial. By the way, we do the math. I wouldn’t suggest they do it. If somebody were going to be upside down millions of dollars five years from now by joining me, I don’t want them to join me because they shouldn’t. They should do what’s best for them and their families. But we find that if we really look at the math, we really look at the growth, we look at the growth and the equity, we look at the leverage. The difference is they do not work at firms. They work at institutions, and they’re good institutions, all of them. They’re good people, they’re good institutions, but they’re not firms. They have to build their own firm with an institution. It’s very costly. Their margins are much, much worse. We have great margins. Our partners have great margins of their P&Ls because they’re able to leverage an actual firm. So that’s a big difference. Whenever I talk to these people, I mean, you might build a firm within the institution, but you are not part of a firm. We are a firm. Everybody runs a P&L, they run a book inside a firm because we are a firm. I think that’s a big difference. Everybody’s going to make the decision for themselves. Louis Diamond: Interesting. Andy, I lied because you just sparked another question before my last one. Where do you plot OnePoint on the spectrum, let’s say, of conformity? So on the one hand, you have just someone’s operating completely independently, call shots, no outside capital. All the way to the very, very right would be, all investment portfolios are the same. Everyone’s the same brand. Advisors are basically relationship managers. Where would OnePoint be on the spectrum, and why is that decision important to you? Andy Schwartz: Yeah, I would say we’re probably somewhere in the middle. Everybody’s the same brand. That’s a deal breaker for us. Either you’re going to be a OnePoint partner or you’re not, or a OnePoint tenant or you’re not. Because I’m an advisor, I recognize that everybody comes to a firm or they come to a situation with legacy assets. They come with legacy assets that have taxes. They come with legacy relationships. So we’re not unrealistic, but we also recognize that centralized service is the key both for the value of the firm and the future and for the value and the way they operate within their businesses, grow their businesses. So I would say that it’s a little bit of a struggle. It’s always anything that we do, there has to be a why. You don’t just say, “Okay, everybody is now in this program, and this is what we do.” You better have a why. If you’re going to force people into something, it better be really good because it’s got to be able to be better for them than for them not to be in that. So we have the CSA desk. We don’t force them, but 80% of our advisors are on the CSA desk. Same with the think tank. My guys, they all want to shoot for 100%. I said, “Great, we’ll shoot for 100%.” It will never be mandatory unless it is so good that it’s more cost-effective and it’s better than they can do on their own. When my team can prove that’s true, then we’ll become more restrictive. But until then, we serve these advisors for the idea that we would shove things down their throats. It’s not going to happen. By the way, growth-oriented advisors are entrepreneurial. I don’t want zoo-fed bears. I want growth-oriented, entrepreneurial advisors. But at the same time, they can’t be the Wild West either. It’s because it detracts from value, and it makes it impossible to run a business. It makes it impossible to really leverage the opportunity. So I would say we’re probably somewhere in the middle. Louis Diamond: I would agree. It’s like a gentler form of one team, one dream, while still leaving some entrepreneurial freedoms in the hands of your high growth non-zoo-fed-bear advisors. Andy Schwartz: Yeah. Be realistic about what’s possible, what you’re asking them to do. I mean, these guys have to be able to do what’s best for their clients and selling all their assets and paying taxes, because this is the way we run a portfolio, is completely unacceptable. So all the constituents have to be considered. Louis Diamond: Perfect. Last question for each of you, parting thoughts. If you were speaking to yourself, so Kevin, back before you merged with Andy back 12-ish years ago, before you left Northwestern to launch Bleakley Financial, now called OnePoint, what is it that you would want to tell yourself? Or put another way, what would you tell the yous that are still captive to some sort of institution? Andy Schwartz: Kevin, why don’t you go first? Kevin Spahn: So what would I tell myself? I guess it goes back to what I said before. It’s all about, do you love what you do or not? I’ve always loved what I do. And I tell every potential new client that three things have to be present for you to work with me. Number one, you have to trust me. If you don’t trust me, it’s not going to work. You’re not going to stick with the plan. But if you do trust the advisor, that’s not necessarily enough. People trusted Bernie Madoff, but look where it got them. So you have to trust them. You have to see that they provide value. And if they don’t provide value, I don’t know why you would pay them. And then the third one, which I almost call a get-out-of-jail-free card, is you have to be on the same page with them philosophically. You have to trust them, you have to provide value, and you need to be on the same page philosophically. So as I think back to myself 12 years ago, all I would realize is that I know things now that I didn’t know them. Part of the reason is that Andy talked about my team. I brought on some people in the last 12 years that I was basically following Andy’s lead. They know more than I do. We have several CFAs in our firm. I have a guy, his name’s Tim Funke. He was a portfolio manager at Northern Trust for 12 years before I hired him. When he left Northern Trust, he was working with families of 250 million or more liquid net worth. He’s great, and he’s been with me for 10 years. He’s a partner in our firm too. It has really helped me provide more value for my clients. If I go back 12 years, I would just say associate yourselves with the best people you can, whether you bring them into your firm or this example of me joining with Andy’s firm. It accelerates your trajectory in ways that you can’t do on your own. Louis Diamond: Fantastic. Andy, same question for you. Andy Schwartz: Yeah. I would say, I like to go back 42 years and say, thank you, Andy, for the late nights chasing down $500 a year premiums, taking, I don’t know, Kev, is it fair to say five, six, seven years to break even net worth? I mean, to first dig out of the hole and then to actually… Because I don’t think I was telling Jodi that I had any money in the bank for at least six or seven years. And then I would say, if I look back 12 years, I’m grateful that we had the courage to do it because sometimes… I would say my brother Scott was a big part of it because he really had more conviction. I was benefiting more from being in the Northwestern system with all the joint work. But I’m just grateful that we had the courage because it’s hard to do and that we did it, because I mean, it has worked out so well for us. I mean, not just financially, but I love the work we do. I love what we can provide for our clients. I love the flexibility. I like to say to people that I haven’t had a fight professionally in 12 years, and I used to have fights all the time. They were friendly fights. I mean, they were good people, and I know they did the best they could, but we were constantly fighting about what we couldn’t do. We were constantly… And I don’t do that anymore. That hasn’t been part of my life for so long, so I’ve become like a spoiled brat. I don’t have to fight with anybody. Louis Diamond: That’s amazing. Andy Schwartz: People always ask like, “Do you regret not doing it sooner?” And I would say probably not because it was a great run for us and great firm, a great institution, I met great people. And everything worked out really well. So would we have been bigger sooner? Maybe, but I have no regrets about that. That’s not really an issue for me. Louis Diamond: Absolutely amazing. This has been so much fun, guys. I love the dynamic and the personal relationship and all the trust that you’ve built. Andy, I can’t believe what you’ve accomplished. I mean, you were very successful and Northwestern famous when you’re on our show a couple of years ago. But just the level of growth, the conviction and what you’re doing, the way you’ve converted 1099s to W-2s and partners and just where you’re headed from here is really a treat. Honestly, I almost look at it as a case study for how to build an enterprise. And, Kevin, I really appreciate your candor for sharing behind the scenes of your decision to make the big decision to not just leave Northwestern, but also merge your firm and kind of take your hands off the wheel a little bit. Andy Schwartz: Well, my pleasure. It’s great to see you again, Louis, and happy to talk anytime. Mindy Diamond: As a financial advisor, you hold yourself to the highest standards of integrity, honesty, and credibility. You are successful because you take your professional responsibilities seriously and are dedicated to your clients. But are you living your best business life? Are your goals aligned with your firms or could a better option exist? Should I Stay or Should I Go? Is a book written with you in mind? It’s a self-guided journey that walks you through the key steps that we take with our advisor clients. This strategic thought process and roadmap to professional self-discovery is designed to help you ask the right questions and think critically and objectively, whether you’re considering change or not. Learn how to get your copy at diamond-consultants.com/thebook. Build, Grow & Transact: Making the Leap from Northwestern Mutual to a $20B Enterprise A conversation between Louis Diamond, Andy Schwartz, CEO of OnePoint BFG Wealth Partners and Kevin Spahn, Founder of Spahn Financial (now OnePoint BFG). Louis Diamond: Welcome to the latest episode of our podcast series for financial advisors. Today’s episode is Build, Grow & Transact: Making the Leap from Northwestern Mutual to a $20B Enterprise. It’s a conversation with Andy Schwartz, CEO of OnePoint BFG Wealth Partners, and Kevin Spahn, founder of Spahn Financial, now OnePoint BFG. I’m Louis Diamond, and this is The Diamond Podcast for Financial Advisors. Mindy Diamond: At Diamond Consultants, we help elite advisors identify the right environment for their businesses to thrive, whether that’s at a wirehouse, boutique, or independent firm. With nearly three decades of experience, we’ve guided thousands of advisors and represented more than a quarter of a trillion dollars in assets transitioned. Each year, one in four advisors managing a billion dollars or more who change firms are our clients. Our process is education-driven and based on building relationships, starting as your strategic partner well before you’re even thinking of a move. To schedule a confidential conversation, call us at 908-879-1002. Wondering why advisors change firms and where they’re headed? Are transition deals going up or down? Those very questions, and more, inspired us to create our annual Advisor Transition Report. It’s the award-winning data-driven resource designed for advisors that connects the dots between the motivations around movement and the firm’s appetite for top talent. Arm yourself with the knowledge you need to make smart decisions. Download your copy at diamond-consultants.com/transitionreport. Louis Diamond: There’s a big difference between building a successful practice and building an enterprise. I think Andy Schwartz and Kevin Spahn offer a unique perspective on that distinction from two very different sides. Both spent decades in the Northwestern Mutual system. Andy ultimately left to build what became OnePoint BFG Wealth Partners, taking the firm from roughly three billion to nearly 20 billion and transforming just about every aspect of the business along the way. Kevin built one of Northwestern Mutual’s top practices before reaching a different inflection point, deciding what he wanted the next phase of his career and business to look like. Rather than go independent on his own or simply monetize what he had built, he chose to become part of Andy’s growing enterprise. That makes their story particularly relevant for our Build, Grow, and Transact series. Andy can speak to what it takes to build a firm capable of becoming an acquirer, from converting advisors from 1099s to W-2s, to creating equity opportunities, to bringing in outside capital while remaining very deliberate about being private equity-invested rather than private equity-owned. And Kevin brings the seller’s perspective, how you evaluate the economics, the trade-offs, and ultimately the people you’re trusting with the business you spent more than 30 years building. Because whether you’re building, buying, or considering a transaction of any kind, the numbers are only part of the equation. As you hear from both Andy and Kevin, trust may be the most important currency of all. So let’s get to it. Andy and Kevin, thank you so much for both joining us today. Andy Schwartz: Great to see you again, Lewis. Thank you for having us. Louis Diamond: I’ve been excited about this interview for a bunch of reasons. One, our Build, Grow, Transact series has become a real staple of our show and we got lots to talk about there. But also, the friendship, the relationship that you two have had for over 30 years really stood out to me. So before we get into the nuts and bolts, talk about your relationship. How’d you guys meet, and how did your career stay so intertwined together when you’re in different geographies and at different firms, and have each been very successful in your own rights? Andy Schwartz: Sure. Kevin, do you want to start with that? Kevin Spahn: Sure. I started in this career in 1994 and met Andy sometime after that. He was a more advanced financial planner. I was an attorney, and then I transitioned into this business. So when I first joined Northwestern Mutual, which is my first broker dealer, I didn’t really have a background in investments. At the time, a lot of Northwestern Mutual reps were learning the investment business because they maybe originally started with Northwestern Mutual focusing more on insurance planning. My background was more estate planning. At the time, if you think early ’90s, if you did estate planning, insurance often went hand in hand with that. The estate exemption in early 1990s was about $600,000. So if you pass more than $600,000 to your children, there was a 55% tax. One way around it was to put insurance in an irrevocable trust, help cover the tax that way. So it really was a popular common strategy back then, and it’s really what got me into the business. But I quickly realized that I didn’t want my future to be insurance and estate planning. And there was a conflict if you acted as someone’s attorney and sold insurance. So I had to pick one way or the other. I decided long-term it would be better for me to move into the wealth management space. But with that little background in that, I had a lot of work to do. So took a lot of tests, became a certified financial planner. But the person that helped me the most along the way was Andy. We became friends, we sat on committees together. That’s really how we met, I would say. So we worked side by side interacting with our home office and representing the field, bringing issues to the home office that we thought were beneficial to the field. As we did that together, I got to know Andy. And then separately, I learned from him how he built his business and how they would review clients’ portfolios and come up with solutions. So I really credit Andy with helping me more than anyone else to transition from attorney, financial planner doing more estate planning insurance to wealth management. Louis Diamond: Very cool. Hey, I would say, maybe I’m a little biased, that, Kevin, you picked the right path in hanging up the law shingle and coming into wealth management. Kevin Spahn: I tell a lot of people I’m a reformed attorney. Andy Schwartz: Great. Louis Diamond: Exactly. My dad would say the exact same thing. Very common at dinner tables in the Diamond households. Andy Schwartz: I was always grateful that I wasn’t smart enough to be an attorney. Louis Diamond: There we go. Andy Schwartz: That’s where my gratitude lies. Yeah. Louis Diamond: There we go. Andy Schwartz: Some would say he’s too smart. Louis Diamond: There we go. Andy, question for you. I mean, anyone who is at or was at Northwestern Mutual, I mean, you’re like Elvis to them. It’s absolutely crazy the amount of fanfare and brand recognition that you and your brother Scott have. But for those who maybe missed your first podcast appearance with us a number of years ago, or aren’t or weren’t within the Northwestern Mutual system, or haven’t been familiar with Bleakley and now OnePoint BFG, just give us the cliff notes, the origin story, how you got into the business, and how’d you get from here to there? Andy Schwartz: Yeah. So the origin is probably pretty common, probably by accident. Going into my senior year in college, I was working in a restaurant, had a falling out with my boss. I happened to be dating a woman who was living with a general agent with Fidelity Union Life. No one will have ever heard of Fidelity Union Life, but their secret sauce was they sold life insurance to college seniors on a note. So if you can get a $10 money order, because where I went to school, nobody had a checking account, then you could basically get a note signed and they would buy insurance. And then when they graduate, hopefully they’d pay for it. I started selling life insurance my senior year in college. And then my twin brother Scott, who is my partner, and has been for over 40 years, he took an interview with what was the nucleus of our present firm actually. I just went up to Northern New Jersey in May of 1984 because I was an expert. I had been selling life insurance to college kids for six months, so I knew everything you had to know. We met with these guys, and we both ended up joining them. So that was a Northwestern Mutual district agency, and that was 1984. We got licensed right away. I got my CFP in ’86. We always knew that it was going to be about planning. So I think we had the right idea. We were a little ahead of the curve because there weren’t a lot of CFPs in ’86. We got securities license immediately. So before Northwestern had securities license, we got securities license with US Life actually. And then it was really a volume business, a client-building business. We always tried to act as a firm and share resources. We were small, but like a lot of people, we started out selling A shares and B shares and C shares, doing financial planning, selling insurance, and then we made a lot of really good hires along the way. And then after 30 years at Northwestern Mutual, which was a great experience for me, and I have nothing but respect for the institution and certainly the advisors that are there, Kevin certainly was one of them, and I know he feels the same way, but we just wanted to have a little more flexibility. We went independent about 11, almost 12 years ago. We wanted to be able to be multi-custodial. We wanted to have a little bit more optionality for our clients and for ourselves. We left Northwestern at three billion or so in assets, and that was in 2015. It’s in March of 2024, I get introduced to this guy with a crazy accent named Joe Duran. Funny, probably the only person in the industry that had no idea who Joe Duran was me. I’d never heard of Joe Duran. I don’t pay attention. I worry about our firm. I don’t worry about what’s going on outside. So I get introduced to Joe by a mutual friend, and we had an interesting conversation, and it took us probably about four or five months to figure out what we wanted to do. And then in August of ’24, myself and my three partners, we rolled in. And then in ’85, the rest of the firm rolled in. And we can talk a little bit more about that. Today we’re 18-plus billion, growing quite a bit. We’ve been very lucky that we’ve made some very good decisions along the way. We’ve made some bad ones too. But most of the decisions had to do with the people that we hired, the people that we brought on to help us, because I think it’s really important. I always say that the biggest mistake advisors make is they buy their own bullshit, and I try not to, and I realize that I’m smart enough, but I’m certainly not the smartest guy. I’m rarely the smartest guy in the room. So what we try to do is hire lots and lots of really smart people. And we’ve done that. They’ve been loyal to us, we’ve been loyal to them. Yeah, so we’re blessed to have a really great team and lots of good partners. Yeah. Louis Diamond: Yeah, we’ll definitely get into more of the nuts and bolts of the decision to take on capital, partner with Joe Duran’s Rise, but that’s an amazing background. Andy, I have to give you credit because your style, and I think I’m sure there’s business benefits, but it comes from a good place, I’m sure. But the coaching and consulting and just assistance that I’ve heard you provide to so many past and current Northwestern Mutual advisors through sports camps is absolutely incredible. It’s very near and dear to my heart because we always try to lead with education and helping people. So I just wanted to call that out, that your reputation for just providing amazing guidance and coaching to advisors is unparalleled. Andy Schwartz: And it’s been the best part of our journey. We’ve been able to help so many people. We get way too much credit by the way. So everybody gives us way too much credit. But the way I look at it is, I’ve been able to leverage my life because I’ve been able to build a great life for myself and my family, but we’ve been able to leverage that, and that’s where the real gift is. So yeah, it’s been a joyful journey for us. Louis Diamond: Amazing. Kevin, question for you. You walked through your little bit unorthodox background to get into Northwestern. Can you talk about where your personal practice is today? And then I want to ask you about the decision to leave Northwestern and sell and team up with Andy and team. Kevin Spahn: Well, I have to go back to the beginning. What was attractive to me about this business is I went from a career which was confrontational adversarial. I was a trial attorney for six years, and every day I would fight with people over things I didn’t necessarily have a personal interest in and I didn’t really believe in always. But the adversarial confrontational nature wasn’t really my personality, and I would take it too personally. So sometimes I’d go home in a bad mood because I was fighting with somebody taking a deposition. At night, after so many years as a trial attorney, I started going to people’s houses and doing wills and trusts. And that’s where the dynamic of working with a client or a potential client, feeling that you helped them and walking out of the meeting where they would appreciate what you did for them, and you build a relationship and actually all of a sudden have a friend, that dynamic was attractive to me. That’s really what got me to transition into the business. So I think it was really helpful to me at the beginning of this career. As Andy said, we all grew our businesses one client at a time. There’s a lot of doors closed, phones hung up on. There’s many people that don’t want to talk to you. There’s many people that don’t call you back. There’s many people that you think you’re getting somewhere with and you don’t. And that’s difficult for people because people often, young reps take that as personal rejection. I had the benefit of comparing what I was dealing with as a young financial planner to what I had dealt with as an attorney in litigation. I think it just was perspective that I knew I didn’t want to do that anymore. So the negatives to this business didn’t seem that bad to me. I loved the independence. I loved all the relationships that I was building. And that part of it is to this day my favorite part of the business. When you ask about the present, what basically happens is you start out taking anybody and everybody as a potential client or as someone that you would be willing to work with. And then over time you work with more successful people. So where I’m at today is working with pretty successful people, but they’re all the same, meaning we like working with nice people. If people are nice, we work with them. I feel we can help anybody. Over the years, one client at a time. The thing that I probably, if I could go back, would change is I think Andy and I are both good at meeting people and building trust and providing value, so that’s why they work with us. So I think that’s just something we’ve both been able to do. He’s much better than I am at building an organization. So I built an organization basically hiring people, that whenever we got too busy, I hired another person. Drawback in terms of that is, anybody that I interview I think is great, and I think they’d be great to join the organization. I like them all. In spite of that, I’ve also brought in many good people that I love. At this point, my firm has 18 people. We’re a little subset of Andy’s larger firm. I think one of the most attractive things to me about joining Andy’s firm is what Andy mentioned before: the people. As opposed to me having to build this all out myself, going independent, Andy already did that. And he has the infrastructure that would allow me to just merge right into that and not have to go through the pain of figuring all that out, which I don’t even think I’m capable of, to be honest with you. Louis Diamond: You’re probably selling yourself short because the way I understood it, you had one of the top practices within the entire Northwestern Mutual systems, and it’s a firm filled with very successful advisors. For you, Kevin, what was the driving force to leaving NM after all these years? What was bothering you or frustrating you that indicated to you that it was time to do something different? Kevin Spahn: To be honest with you, I was pretty happy at Northwestern Mutual. I love the company and the people. I still have many good friends there that I truly miss. The big thing for me, I don’t know if it was any one thing, to be honest with you, is Andy said there’s optionality, especially on the investment side. I think one of the things that happened to me is, when I first started, I was 31 years old, and most of the potential clients that I would meet and work with, they weren’t what I would call today great investment clients. They didn’t have a lot of money. They had great futures. They might’ve been earning significant income or on the way to earning significant income. So what did they need at that point in their life? They needed planning. They needed protection. They didn’t really need investment management because most of their investments were going into their 401(k). But a lot of those clients that we would take on, and I think that’s the big advantage of Northwestern Mutual, you take on clients that a lot of the investor firms don’t want because they don’t have large investment portfolios. But at some point down the road, all of a sudden you wake up and they do have large investment portfolios. So you bring them in as clients that might buy life insurance from you or disability insurance or something like that. And then you help them, and you give them advice, and you build a relationship with them. Down the road, they make more and more money. They leave jobs, they roll 401(k)s, they have the ability to invest money, stock options, things like that. Next thing you’re doing more comprehensive planning that incorporates investments. As that progresses even further, you work with larger and larger clients, much more significant net worth, more complexity, bigger tax issues. Some of the strategies and opportunities that we now have at this independent RIA are very attractive for these high-net-worth clients. Along the same lines, less of what I do at this point in my career is insurance, mostly because a lot of the people that I meet are older, they already bought insurance, they’re looking more for investment advice as opposed to insurance. So one of the things that most attracted me to Northwest Mutual was their strong insurance products, which helped me for many years. As time went on, I was doing less of that. Louis Diamond: Makes complete sense. So it was a changing of what clients wanted and just the circumstances of your clients where you said, “What got me here when I was 31 was insurance planning, and that’s what my clients needed. But as my practice has evolved, I’ve aged, my clients are older, have more money, the focus shifted from insurance to investments.” And then the distinction was, am I at the best place to run investments in addition to insurance planning, et cetera? It’s a very interesting dynamic. Just the shift in basically your legacy clients was what drove you to consider change. Kevin Spahn: That was a big factor. I think the second big factor was I had my own firm with 18 people. My succession plan was that at some point I would shift ownership of the firm to people that worked with me. So as they owned more of the firm, they would have revenue that was currently at the time being paid to me. In my mind, as it shifted to them, they would buy me out using revenue from the clients that we already had. And I realized that there were some issues with that. In our business, as you get older, in your client’s age, they start taking money out of their portfolios. So everyone understands that in our business, the younger average age client you have makes your book more valuable. I was the biggest driver of new business at my firm, and I started to see that there were some problems with my succession plan. They included, if something happened to me during this succession, that would be a real problem for the people that were buying my business from me if I went that way. If something happened to some of my key people, that would’ve been a problem as well. So it was really attractive to me to… I wasn’t looking to sell my business, I was looking to merge it. So I merged it with Andy’s business. I believe that Andy and what he’s put together and the actual idea of having partners. So I never really had partners, but now I do. Having partners that we’re all on the same page, we all have similar backgrounds, we all bring something different to the table, and we can learn and benefit from working with each other. But also, owning a little piece of a much larger firm was, number one, it put me in a better position in terms of the potential risk of something happening to me or one of my key people. But secondly, I just think it’s more likely to grow at a greater pace than my firm would’ve as I aged from my 60s to my 70s. Louis Diamond: Very interesting. It’s a great realization. I think it’s one that probably every firm owner grapples with at some point, is the romanticism or the ease, some would say, of an internal succession plan. Rewarding those who have helped you build the firm is something I think everyone is interested in. But once that’s put into practice, whether it’s because of capital or sky-high valuations or right people on the bus or risk, et cetera, nowadays oftentimes leads to a firm owner looking at a transaction, whether it’s a merger, a sale, a private equity, capital infusion as a means to solve for succession. So it’s a very interesting way you framed it. Andy, I want to turn it over to you for a little bit. So you mentioned when you launched Bleakley Financial, which was the old name of your firm, out of Northwestern, you’re about three billion. I think I read that you’re about 10 billion or so when Joe Duran and Rise invested you in 2024. You just said you’re at 18 billion now in the middle of 2026. That is absolutely incredible and amazing. Andy Schwartz: We’ll be well over 20 by the end of the year without any additional organic growth. Louis Diamond: That’s absolutely incredible. Andy Schwartz: We’ve got a lot going on right now. Louis Diamond: What’s actually driven that? What’s been the playbook? Andy Schwartz: The three areas that are most important for us, and we had our town hall this morning, and we always talk about the things we focus on as a group, the first and most important is the client experience. I always say to people, if you are their advisor, then that means someone else isn’t. These people, they all deserve to be really well taken care of. They deserve the best service, they deserve the best advice. So that’s something we take really personally. So client experience first. Then we also understand that we don’t just work for clients, we work for our advisors. So I have two jobs. I have, I don’t know, 500 clients I service with my team, and I work for Kevin and 36 other partners and all of our employees. Because again, I recognize that the decision Kevin made… We’re in the middle of a transition out with another advisor, and we pretty much talk to her every day, and I know how hard this is. A transition is so difficult. When you come from a good place, because any of the Northwestern advisor who joins, they’re coming from a good place, it’s not like they have to go anywhere, it’s difficult. So we have the massive responsibility that three or four or five or 10 years from now, that there better be hugs around that this was the best decision ever made or otherwise. That’s the kind of thing that keeps me up at night. So we’ve got to take care of our client experience, we’ve got to take care of our advisor experience. And then obviously, we’ve got to grow the firm so the firm grows organically. So part of this whole idea of serving our advisors is we have to help our advisors grow. I talk to a lot of people on the acquisition side, and if I’m talking to an advisor, it doesn’t matter how big they are, we kind of think of it as a OnePoint way. There’s flexibility in the OnePoint way. But if I can’t help them grow, I don’t want them, because I say it all the time, I’m not the mafia. I’m not here to get a taste. Louis, if you weren’t interested in joining us, if I thought that we could help you grow by doing that, then I want you bad. If I don’t think I can help you grow because we’re so different, or because you’re not going to adapt what we do, or there’s no leverage in it, or you’re already better than we are, I don’t want it. So for us, organic growth, number one, and I think you know the industries well enough, that’s got to be the key. We shoot for 10% organic growth. We’re at a little over 5% so far halfway through the year. So assuming we have the similar second half of the year, we’ll hit our 10. Last year we’re at 7.5%. The second is the inorganic growth. If you truly build a platform, if you truly build a firm that advisors know that they’ll be supported, that they’ll be loved, and you’ll help them grow their businesses, it does make it easier for us. We’re not the highest bidder typically. We can’t. We respect our client’s capital, we respect their equity, so therefore we’re not going to go out there. We’re not an aggregator, we’re a firm. But I think that if we can get that message across, and I think we have, then advisors join us. So that’s been a big part of the growth. And then the market’s helped. Obviously, over the last two years, the market’s been helpful. So that’s how we’ve gone from 10 to 18 and on our way to 22 by year-end. Louis Diamond: This is absolutely incredible. Any advisor or firm owner would say organic growth is important, but just saying it’s important doesn’t mean it’s going to happen. So what are the ways in which you help your advisors or your own practice grow organically? What is it that OnePoint is doing for your advisors? Andy Schwartz: Starting with bringing on growth-oriented advisors. I mean, look, Kevin Spahn and I come from the same place. We learned how to sell. The great thing about coming out of whether they’re broker dealers or out of the different insurance BDs is, these are people that know how to sell. These are people that don’t think that selling is a bad word. A lot of times you go to the wirehouses and they’re not necessarily sales guys. They’re really smart. They think that they’re investment mavens and investment geniuses. I’m not interested in investment geniuses. I’m interested in people that want to take care of their clients, provide everything they can, clients first, do the proper planning, be good advisors, but they’re growth-oriented. So as long as we’re talking with the right advisors. Again, if I’m talking to advisor and they might have a big practice, if they’re not growers, we’re not interested. There’s a sense of responsibility for all the partners because we are a true partnership. It’s not an aggregation. This is a firm. I’m responsible for Kevin. Kevin’s responsible to me. All of our partners are responsible to each other, because if we’re going to do a 10% organic growth target, and if some partner is negative 3%, we don’t put them through the spanking machine, but everybody is very aware of where everybody is and nobody wants to let their partners down. I think either you’re a growth-oriented advisor or you’re a zoo-fed bear. There’s another expression that I got from another Rise Growth Partner or Rise Growth firm. We all kind of communicate and talk to each other. And I was talking about zoo-fed bears, and he said, we call them house cats that think they fight. So they’re house cats, but they have no claws. But I think if you’re careful about who you bring on as partners, and if they are workers, growers, they understand that their job in life is to serve the people. We talk about referrals, we do lots of training to help on referrals. We work on organic growth strategies from the firm, but a lot of it comes from the advisors themselves. Louis Diamond: Makes sense. So it sounds like, to boil it down, it’s being really selective and having a really clear sense of who’s the right fit for your firm. Not that there’s not amazing advisors out there, but just because you’re an amazing advisor, doesn’t mean you’re the right fit to join OnePoint. Andy Schwartz: I think the one big distinction and difference is other than the fact that we are minority-owned with private equity. So we own our business. I mean, I’m the CEO of the firm. I also have the biggest book in the firm. At least for right now, I mean, Kevin was transitioning, so I’m sure next year he’ll be the leading advisor. But I lead the firm, because as far as I’m concerned, you have to lead by example. We are completely aligned. I know exactly what Kevin does every day because I do the same thing. I’m not some attorney or accountant or private equity boss that’s saying, “Oh, I’ve got an idea for growth. We’ll just raise our fees by 5%.” Brilliant. Yeah, we are completely aligned, all of us. I think that makes us a little bit unique, and it really helps us, I think, in our growth trajectory. Louis Diamond: I would agree. The challenge that a lot of advisors-turned-firm-owners or turned-enterprise-builders have is the tug of war between the client work, which either is their ultimate passion and driving force, or it’s something they’re really good at minimum, versus being the owner, the operator, et cetera. I resonate very much, Andy, with the way you handle it. I do the same thing running a company, but also working with advisors. To me, I need to do both in order to do my job well. But that tug of war is tough. So I’m curious, your firm is very large now, you’re a steward of external capital, and you have a $3 billion book yourself. How do you do it? How do you balance the two? Andy Schwartz: Well, fortunately, my kids are grown, so I’m not coaching sports anymore. So I do have a little more time than most. Look, we have a great team. So the idea that I run the firm… I mean, I lead the firm, I don’t run the firm. We have great partners. We have great… Our manager team is fantastic. So I mean, they really run the firm. But this is where my passion is for now. So I don’t mind. Days are typically pretty long. I don’t play golf during the week. Mara and I don’t travel probably as much as we should. Vacations are always a little bit mixed. There’s always room for calls and meetings and whatever. But to me, I mean, I’m grateful to be in this situation. I’m enjoying it. This is such a privilege to be the person that people recognize as the leader of this bunch, of this group. I mean, it is the honor of my life. So I don’t think of it so much as work. It’s my advocation. It does get busy. There are some times where I have to remind myself, “Just enjoy the ride.” I get a little overwhelmed, but I get lots of help and that makes it possible. Louis Diamond: Yep. If you’re not doing the job of the folks that you’re encouraging and leading to do, how do you have fodder to train them, to teach them, to empathize with that? Andy Schwartz: Exactly, you don’t have the credibility. I can ask them to do almost anything because they know I do it myself, and I think that helps. Louis Diamond: Yep. So moving more into the decision to bring on private equity capital, what I thought was probably the most interesting component of your announcement that you took on PE investment was that you completely restructured or reoriented your firm prior to Joe Duran coming in 2024. Correct me if I’m wrong, but Bleakley Financial Group was almost all 1099 contractors. So everyone owned their own books of business, paid Bleakley a fee or an override for certain services. But now, today, over 85% of your advisors and your AUM are W-2 employees, meaning you converted them from 1099 to acquiring them or merging with them. To me, that’s the dream. It’s had to have been very, very, very hard and challenging because there’s so many aggregator firms or platforms that support independent advisors, but the value that they’ve created is fairly minimal relative to one cohesive firm. So can you just talk about that decision, a very big and brave decision to go down the path of acquiring or merging with the practices rather than letting them continue to operate independently? Andy Schwartz: Well, look, we had to… It’s funny because we had been having conversations for years with consultants, and they kept telling us what we had to do. Again, we’re not that smart, so we just kept thinking, “No, we don’t have to do that.” But we were told 10 years earlier that the only way that this thing has any value to the world is you’ve got to have EBITDA for the firm. We talked to all the smart people, we ignored all of them. But what happened was we needed capital and we needed equity in order to bring people on, because people aren’t just joining us just because we can help them grow a bigger business. So the reason we went in the direction we went initially was we just needed capital. We wanted to grow the firm, and the only way we were going to get to is… What’s the old saying? What got us here is not going to get us there. So we needed capital. But we also realized that I had to have something I could sell in the marketplace. And people want equity. So they want cash, but they also want equity, because we’re talking to entrepreneurs. Kevin owned his own firm. He has $2 billion of assets. He wasn’t interested in being someone’s employee, but he was interested in being able to get leverage and be a partner and share equity in a larger firm that had the chance to grow even more. So what the gift that Joe Duran, the Rise folks gave us was that gift of structure and understanding. So that was really helpful, and that’s been a big part of our success. Louis Diamond: Yeah, it’s an amazing journey. Again, I think you could probably write a book or a case study on how that happened. I’m sure there were some downfalls, some people that weren’t all that excited about it, but the results speak for itself. Andy Schwartz: I think people ask all the time because I do get phone calls. People are trying to do this, and they’re struggling. It took us 90 days to basically do it. People say, “I’ve been at this for two years.” And the biggest issue is trust. Either they trust you or they don’t. At the end of the day, I always went to the advisor here, we were a firm for 30-plus years prior, and these guys knew that we always did what we said we were going to do, and we always did. If your people trust you, then you can do it. If your people don’t trust you, it isn’t going to work. Louis Diamond: In other words, your firm added immense value to the advisors as well. Aside from trust, if you weren’t providing a service or services that they found a value that they couldn’t access on their own, it would’ve been 85/15 going the other way for sure. Andy Schwartz: Yeah, 100%. I know it’s not easy, but it wasn’t that hard for us. Louis Diamond: Good. It’s well-earned. So I believe you were Rise Growth Partners’ first investment. Andy Schwartz: We were. Louis Diamond: That’s cool. It’s exciting. You get to be someone’s first, but did it make you uncomfortable that you were the first investment or did you see that as a positive? Andy Schwartz: I actually saw it as a positive. Well, one, because I recognized immediately that Joe Duran and his team were way smarter than we were certainly, and certainly with what we were trying to do. And I figured that it’s almost like the first child. They were so excited to have somebody, and there was so much time and energy, so they just really doted on us. They were really able to help us. Now they’ve got four or five groups that they work with, and obviously we’ve been launched. So the younger babies are getting more time and attention, although we get everything that we need from them. But yeah, that never concerned me. I always thought that would be our advantage. It actually turned out that way. Louis Diamond: Interesting. In thinking through a sale or a minority sale, did you entertain other types of capital, whether it was a family office or a multitude of other private equity sponsors or selling the firm outright? Andy Schwartz: Yeah, we probably had four or five very, very serious conversations. Actually, some got pretty close to the end where we basically just made the decision not to do it. One was a much larger firm, good people. But the problem always was… I was always going to get rich out of the deal because it was going to be 100% sale, but there was really no lift or leverage from the advisors. So the principals, they were willing to pay me a big multiple and my partners a big multiple, and pay these guys basically an average multiple. So we had always told our guys, “Let’s stay together, and someday, this thing, whatever it’s going to turn into be, will benefit everyone.” So with the Duran situation and the deal with Rise did, it gave everybody a chance to benefit from what we were doing. But what was good about all of those false starts was, it taught me a lot because I had… I know you’re involved in this, so you know better than I do, but we’d start conversations, somebody would reach out to me, I would be very specific about what I needed. They would say, “Yep, we can do that.” And then you get to the finish line, and it’s almost like, I started out, I wanted a tomahawk steak and a baked potato, and I ended up getting a two-day-old hamburger with some cold French fries. It’s like, I know I’m not that smart and I know you’re the PE guys, but for God’s sakes, we’re not stupid. So it was funny because in January of ’24, I told my partners, “I don’t want to have any more of these conversations. It was a waste of time and energy. I’m sick of talking to these people. Let’s just put our heads down, and then let’s grow the firm a little bit more, and then we’ll see what the world looks like.” And then I get introduced to Duran. Louis Diamond: Perfect. Makes sense. Yeah, so you were well-educated on the market, the types of buyers, and I always say it’s almost more important to understand what you don’t want more than what you do want. The only way oftentimes to understand what you don’t want is to experience it and touch and feel it and really get into the weeds on it. I like too, Andy, I saw in an article, you said that “we’re private equity invested, we’re not private equity owned,” which is a very cool dynamic. I could imagine why that was important to you to retain majority control. Kevin, I want to bring you back into the conversation. Thank you for being patient here. But I mean, I would imagine you had some real choices. I mean, you could have stayed at Northwestern and been very successful, gone through with your internal succession plan. You could have gone to an independent BD, monetized, figured out succession later. You could have sold the business to a strategic acquirer. You were big enough to take on an investor in some capacity on your own. So options wasn’t your problem. Maybe just walk us through. Did you consider any other pathways? And what were the pros and cons in your mind that led you to doing a transaction with Andy? Kevin Spahn: I’m a little different, I think, than most people in this industry. Even as you grow your business at a certain percentage, none of that stuff has ever really meant anything to me. All I know is I like what I do. So when I came into the business, because I like it, I enjoy it, I spend time doing it, I’ve tried to get better at it. But it comes naturally because it’s something that I don’t look at Monday mornings as, “Oh, no, it’s Monday morning.” I’m excited to go to work. My entire career, once I left law, my business has just grown over the years naturally. But you said something before, Louis, and I think this applies to me. I love to work with the clients. I don’t like what I have to do in terms of running the firm. I never have. It’s never been my cup of tea, but you have to do it if you run a firm. So number one, the thought of all the due diligence that I would have to do to research all the firms out there, I wasn’t really all that interested in doing that. At the end of the day, it comes down to this word trust. I trust Andy. I trust the other partners here too, because I’ve known not just Andy, but I’ve known Scott and many of the other partners for years. So I knew what I was getting myself into. At the end of the day, I knew what they built. I was very comfortable with it, and I was either going to stay at Northwestern Mutual or I was going to come here, but I wasn’t going to go anywhere else. I will say, since I’ve gone, it’s been exactly like I thought. I thought I trusted Andy. And if something happened along the way with the transition, everything that he said has been true, thing that he promised is real. As you deal with more complexities with a bigger book and more and more employees, I knew that I was almost at the breaking point in terms of my own organization and to merge into this organization that, as I said before, he’s already built out. I don’t have to do it. And to benefit from these great people that he has as part of his organization, that’s all been a real blessing for me and my team. So I didn’t shop the marketplace really, but I knew what I was getting into, and it’s worked out clear as I thought it would. Louis Diamond: That’s amazing. I think that’s what most people would covet. But it is a decision in and of itself to not shop the marketplace. I mean, from representing buyers or prospective buyers, I know the pricing leverage or the negotiation leverage and the valuation lift that comes from having an open market, having multiple bids, et cetera. It sounds like that wasn’t the… Obviously you wanted to get fair value for your firm, but for you, it was more, it’s trust, “I’m either going to just stay at Northwestern, which is the devil I know or it’s what I’ve known where I’ve been successful, or I’m going to go to the individual that I trust and forget about all the other noise.” Kevin Spahn: Well, Andy says things, but I know they’re true because I’ve seen him at work. I’ve seen how he’s acted. I’ve seen how he interacts with people. But here’s an example. He cares about the people that are at his firm. He says that, but I know it’s true because I see it. I’m the same. I really care about the people in my firm. So as I think about, well, what about the future of two groups, my clients, but also the people that work in my firm? They’re going to be around long after I am. Well, I don’t want myself to retire someday, get a big check, because there’s all sorts of options to get a check. If I get a check and then my client’s scatter to the wind, and my employees don’t really have a future and they just have to go and find their own way, that wasn’t attractive at all to me. So one of the things that I really appreciate about this opportunity is that there is a plan for both my clients and my employees or the younger team members at formerly Spahn Financial, where I feel very good about the fact that they have a solid, secure future in an industry that they’ve all grown to love without them having to go out and make their own way. Louis Diamond: Makes sense to me. We noted a couple of times in this interview, you talked about equity, partnership, both of you have. So Kevin, for you, what did it mean differently for you to become a partner and get equity in a larger firm rather than, we’ll say, the less risky move of just taking everything in cash? Why was that an important distinction for you? Kevin Spahn: For many years, when I left law and came into this business, I didn’t have any money at the time. I was just starting to make money as a lawyer. It takes a while. I started low. I got trial experience working for the government, so they didn’t pay much. That was three years. Then I was at a firm, and I was just starting to make more money. Then I made this big shift into a career that was all commissions. Well, even with what I thought was good early success, it took years till I really had any money in the bank or till I could actually tell my wife what we had in the bank because I really didn’t want her to know before promoting with her. But I never was really worried about the future because I could see what it looked like. I also knew that I loved what I did every day, and I knew what it would lead to. It’s always been a part of my own career path that I got to the point somewhere along the way where I knew I had enough money. Somewhere along the way, I realized I could retire if I wanted to. Here’s the good news. I don’t want to. I like what I do. So it really wasn’t about the biggest check or anything like that. But when I go back to this analysis, well, how did I bring in business before? If you do a good job and the clients appreciate the work you do, they refer you to their friends. So that would happen. That’s how we grew our business. But as I think about, “Well, I now have two grandchildren. I’d like to spend time with them. I have four children. They’re all going to get married and have kids,” I see over the next whatever, 10 or 15 years, I will want more flexibility. Andy and I both work pretty long hours right now. Won’t have the time for that. So what’ll happen? Well, at some point, I think the new business generation will slow down a little bit. And as I said before, as our clients age, some of the money starts coming out, that all affects the value of your book. I feel pretty comfortable that the combination of what we’re doing and all my partners and then this firm that Andy’s built, I think that the growth will be pretty strong over the next 5, 10 years. So part of my thought process was I’m trusting in that and I’m buying into that. At the end of the day, I’m comfortable that the combination of what this is going to ultimately do for my clients and then my team, and then the value of my ownership compared to what I would’ve done on my own, the combination of it all is a really good solution for where I was a year ago. Louis Diamond: That sounds like it. I mean, I feel like the equity ownership dynamic, especially equity in a firm other than yourself, it’s either something that advisors get really charged up about because they see what you saw, Kevin. “I’m diversifying. It’s not just my growth, it’s everyone’s growth, that this asset, this equity has the ability to grow and scale quicker, more efficiently than just me.” At the same time, it’s probably the hardest decision for folks to step over the threshold and say, “I’ve been responsible for my growth, the value of my firm. If they’re independent already, I decide distributions, who to hire, et cetera. It’s for better or worse, it’s me and I’ve trusted myself.” So just getting comfortable with equity in someone else and taking your hands off the wheel a little bit is not something that everyone gets comfortable with. But it sounds like, for you, it was the absolute right decision for all the reasons you laid out. Kevin Spahn: You just laid it out perfectly. Years ago, I was going to bring in a junior partner. I was working with this guy, I was training him, teaching him, and he was planning on joining my firm as a junior partner. And then he started asking me what I paid everybody and why I paid these people that much money. I realized right then and there, the last thing I want to do is bring on someone who’s going to own 10% of my firm, and then they’re going to start complaining about what I pay everybody else. I didn’t want to have to make that decision with anybody. It is a special person that I would ever be comfortable becoming a partner with. There are obviously many partners in this firm, but it comes down to the fact that my relationship with Andy as the managing partner and he has a lot of the influence in the firm. It really is trust. And I’ll say, my wife has known Andy a long time, and she trusts him as well. So for years, she would ask me, “What about Andy?” We would talk here and there about his firm, and she’s always been very comfortable with Andy and this potential move. Louis Diamond: There we go. Yeah, the actual decision dynamic was, your wife was comfortable. Kevin Spahn: Exactly. She was my secret weapon the whole time. Louis Diamond: There we go. Andy, I can guess the answer just from doing this conversation, but when you bought Kevin, I don’t know if it’s still true, but at the time, at least, he was your largest deal, and it was the first time you’re entering the Chicagoland area. What was it about Kevin and his practice that made you get to a yes? Andy Schwartz: Listen, I’ve talked to Kevin. I mean, Kevin and I stayed in touch. So for the 11 years, one of the few advisors that I maintained a real relationship with was Kevin. I never really thought he would join me, but I couldn’t help myself because Kevin was the best advisor in the system and the best person in the system. Truth is, I think Kevin did what he did as much as anything. If it was a good financial decision, he wanted to be able to give more money away someday. That’s how Kevin operates. So I’ve always been just a huge fan. I would tease him. When I would joke with him, I would always ask him, “So when are we going to come partners?” And we’ve had our own inside joke, which we’re working on right now, right, Kev, which we’ll work on later this afternoon. So we’ve always had our deal. And then I got to tell you, it was probably, it’s still sometimes I wake up, and I can’t believe how fortunate that he actually did it. So yeah, forgetting about size, I mean, yeah, huge practice, our biggest acquisition, Chicago’s a great market, but I mean, it’s a one in a million. It was hard for him because the Northwestern Mutual didn’t want to lose him. So it was a very difficult decision because I think everybody felt the same way. So no, we’re blessed to have him. His team, he’s got a great team, made our firm better, and this is the best part of the journey for me. Louis Diamond: Amazing. Two more questions for you guys. I’m going to let you get on with your busy days. This would be for either or both of you. So for a Northwestern Mutual advisor, or let’s say any advisor within an insurance BD or who has some sort of proverbial golden handcuffs, whether it’s insurance renewals or pension or a very large unvested deferred compensation balance, really you can pick anything, many of these folks think they’re stuck. Might be unhappy. They might see promise elsewhere, but they can’t reconcile leaving something behind. Another example would be mutual fund trails through proprietary products or a bunch of alts where the trails aren’t going to carry over. What is it you’d want those individuals to understand about what’s actually possible or the mindset of leaving something behind to go run towards something else? Andy Schwartz: Well, I mean, look, the issue is… Look, there’s a number that can be too big to make sense to never leave. So people could be truly stuck. Renewals run out. And as you do less premium as you get older, the renewals get smaller. So renewals to me are a non-issue. I always like to talk to advisors of how much bigger. Our thing is we think we can grow your practice twice as fast and half the time. So if that’s true, and if you believe that’s true, then there’s math on that side, and you just compare the math to what you’re losing. Everybody that we’ve brought on, everybody makes more money, and they’ve more than made up for what they give up. That doesn’t mean though that someone doesn’t have such a golden handcuff or some program that is so substantial. By the way, we do the math. I wouldn’t suggest they do it. If somebody were going to be upside down millions of dollars five years from now by joining me, I don’t want them to join me because they shouldn’t. They should do what’s best for them and their families. But we find that if we really look at the math, we really look at the growth, we look at the growth and the equity, we look at the leverage. The difference is they do not work at firms. They work at institutions, and they’re good institutions, all of them. They’re good people, they’re good institutions, but they’re not firms. They have to build their own firm with an institution. It’s very costly. Their margins are much, much worse. We have great margins. Our partners have great margins of their P&Ls because they’re able to leverage an actual firm. So that’s a big difference. Whenever I talk to these people, I mean, you might build a firm within the institution, but you are not part of a firm. We are a firm. Everybody runs a P&L, they run a book inside a firm because we are a firm. I think that’s a big difference. Everybody’s going to make the decision for themselves. Louis Diamond: Interesting. Andy, I lied because you just sparked another question before my last one. Where do you plot OnePoint on the spectrum, let’s say, of conformity? So on the one hand, you have just someone’s operating completely independently, call shots, no outside capital. All the way to the very, very right would be, all investment portfolios are the same. Everyone’s the same brand. Advisors are basically relationship managers. Where would OnePoint be on the spectrum, and why is that decision important to you? Andy Schwartz: Yeah, I would say we’re probably somewhere in the middle. Everybody’s the same brand. That’s a deal breaker for us. Either you’re going to be a OnePoint partner or you’re not, or a OnePoint tenant or you’re not. Because I’m an advisor, I recognize that everybody comes to a firm or they come to a situation with legacy assets. They come with legacy assets that have taxes. They come with legacy relationships. So we’re not unrealistic, but we also recognize that centralized service is the key both for the value of the firm and the future and for the value and the way they operate within their businesses, grow their businesses. So I would say that it’s a little bit of a struggle. It’s always anything that we do, there has to be a why. You don’t just say, “Okay, everybody is now in this program, and this is what we do.” You better have a why. If you’re going to force people into something, it better be really good because it’s got to be able to be better for them than for them not to be in that. So we have the CSA desk. We don’t force them, but 80% of our advisors are on the CSA desk. Same with the think tank. My guys, they all want to shoot for 100%. I said, “Great, we’ll shoot for 100%.” It will never be mandatory unless it is so good that it’s more cost-effective and it’s better than they can do on their own. When my team can prove that’s true, then we’ll become more restrictive. But until then, we serve these advisors for the idea that we would shove things down their throats. It’s not going to happen. By the way, growth-oriented advisors are entrepreneurial. I don’t want zoo-fed bears. I want growth-oriented, entrepreneurial advisors. But at the same time, they can’t be the Wild West either. It’s because it detracts from value, and it makes it impossible to run a business. It makes it impossible to really leverage the opportunity. So I would say we’re probably somewhere in the middle. Louis Diamond: I would agree. It’s like a gentler form of one team, one dream, while still leaving some entrepreneurial freedoms in the hands of your high growth non-zoo-fed-bear advisors. Andy Schwartz: Yeah. Be realistic about what’s possible, what you’re asking them to do. I mean, these guys have to be able to do what’s best for their clients and selling all their assets and paying taxes, because this is the way we run a portfolio, is completely unacceptable. So all the constituents have to be considered. Louis Diamond: Perfect. Last question for each of you, parting thoughts. If you were speaking to yourself, so Kevin, back before you merged with Andy back 12-ish years ago, before you left Northwestern to launch Bleakley Financial, now called OnePoint, what is it that you would want to tell yourself? Or put another way, what would you tell the yous that are still captive to some sort of institution? Andy Schwartz: Kevin, why don’t you go first? Kevin Spahn: So what would I tell myself? I guess it goes back to what I said before. It’s all about, do you love what you do or not? I’ve always loved what I do. And I tell every potential new client that three things have to be present for you to work with me. Number one, you have to trust me. If you don’t trust me, it’s not going to work. You’re not going to stick with the plan. But if you do trust the advisor, that’s not necessarily enough. People trusted Bernie Madoff, but look where it got them. So you have to trust them. You have to see that they provide value. And if they don’t provide value, I don’t know why you would pay them. And then the third one, which I almost call a get-out-of-jail-free card, is you have to be on the same page with them philosophically. You have to trust them, you have to provide value, and you need to be on the same page philosophically. So as I think back to myself 12 years ago, all I would realize is that I know things now that I didn’t know them. Part of the reason is that Andy talked about my team. I brought on some people in the last 12 years that I was basically following Andy’s lead. They know more than I do. We have several CFAs in our firm. I have a guy, his name’s Tim Funke. He was a portfolio manager at Northern Trust for 12 years before I hired him. When he left Northern Trust, he was working with families of 250 million or more liquid net worth. He’s great, and he’s been with me for 10 years. He’s a partner in our firm too. It has really helped me provide more value for my clients. If I go back 12 years, I would just say associate yourselves with the best people you can, whether you bring them into your firm or this example of me joining with Andy’s firm. It accelerates your trajectory in ways that you can’t do on your own. Louis Diamond: Fantastic. Andy, same question for you. Andy Schwartz: Yeah. I would say, I like to go back 42 years and say, thank you, Andy, for the late nights chasing down $500 a year premiums, taking, I don’t know, Kev, is it fair to say five, six, seven years to break even net worth? I mean, to first dig out of the hole and then to actually… Because I don’t think I was telling Jodi that I had any money in the bank for at least six or seven years. And then I would say, if I look back 12 years, I’m grateful that we had the courage to do it because sometimes… I would say my brother Scott was a big part of it because he really had more conviction. I was benefiting more from being in the Northwestern system with all the joint work. But I’m just grateful that we had the courage because it’s hard to do and that we did it, because I mean, it has worked out so well for us. I mean, not just financially, but I love the work we do. I love what we can provide for our clients. I love the flexibility. I like to say to people that I haven’t had a fight professionally in 12 years, and I used to have fights all the time. They were friendly fights. I mean, they were good people, and I know they did the best they could, but we were constantly fighting about what we couldn’t do. We were constantly… And I don’t do that anymore. That hasn’t been part of my life for so long, so I’ve become like a spoiled brat. I don’t have to fight with anybody. Louis Diamond: That’s amazing. Andy Schwartz: People always ask like, “Do you regret not doing it sooner?” And I would say probably not because it was a great run for us and great firm, a great institution, I met great people. And everything worked out really well. So would we have been bigger sooner? Maybe, but I have no regrets about that. That’s not really an issue for me. Louis Diamond: Absolutely amazing. This has been so much fun, guys. I love the dynamic and the personal relationship and all the trust that you’ve built. Andy, I can’t believe what you’ve accomplished. I mean, you were very successful and Northwestern famous when you’re on our show a couple of years ago. But just the level of growth, the conviction and what you’re doing, the way you’ve converted 1099s to W-2s and partners and just where you’re headed from here is really a treat. Honestly, I almost look at it as a case study for how to build an enterprise. And, Kevin, I really appreciate your candor for sharing behind the scenes of your decision to make the big decision to not just leave Northwestern, but also merge your firm and kind of take your hands off the wheel a little bit. Andy Schwartz: Well, my pleasure. It’s great to see you again, Louis, and happy to talk anytime. Mindy Diamond: As a financial advisor, you hold yourself to the highest standards of integrity, honesty, and credibility. You are successful because you take your professional responsibilities seriously and are dedicated to your clients. But are you living your best business life? Are your goals aligned with your firms or could a better option exist? Should I Stay or Should I Go? Is a book written with you in mind? It’s a self-guided journey that walks you through the key steps that we take with our advisor clients. This strategic thought process and roadmap to professional self-discovery is designed to help you ask the right questions and think critically and objectively, whether you’re considering change or not. Learn how to get your copy at diamond-consultants.com/thebook.

   September 03, 2026·58min
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4. 4
   Number 4: Vanguard Acquires Altruist: What It Means for Advisors and the Industry

   With Louis Diamond Vanguard’s acquisition of Altruist could reshape RIA custody, bringing together Altruist’s technology with the scale, capital, and reputation of one of the industry’s best-known brands. In Summary Vanguard’s acquisition of Altruist brings one of the financial industry’s most established brands together with one of RIA custody’s fastest-growing challengers. In this Rapid Reaction Industry Update, Louis Diamond looks beyond the reported $4B+ purchase price to consider what the combination could mean for advisors—what he sees as the good news, the potentially negative outcomes, and everything in between. Altruist gains the capital, scale, and brand recognition that could help it compete more aggressively for larger RIAs and breakaway teams. Vanguard gains a technology-forward custody platform and greater access to the independent advisor channel. The larger implication may be increased competition across RIA custody. With Schwab and Fidelity controlling much of the market, a Vanguard-backed Altruist could create new pressure around technology, pricing, service, referrals, and innovation—while raising new questions about how Vanguard balances its growing advice business with its role as custodian. The Storyline RIA custody has long been dominated by Schwab and Fidelity, particularly since Schwab’s acquisition of TD Ameritrade. Altruist emerged as one of the few credible challengers, building its position around modern technology, lower costs, and an advisor-focused platform. But technology was only part of the equation. For larger breakaway teams in particular, Altruist faced another hurdle: brand recognition. Advisors could be impressed by the platform while still wondering how clients accustomed to names like Merrill, UBS, Morgan Stanley, Schwab, or Fidelity would respond to an unfamiliar custodian. Vanguard changes that equation. Louis examines why the acquisition makes strategic sense for both companies, from Vanguard’s push to expand access to financial advice to Altruist’s opportunity to operate with the backing of a well-capitalized, long-term owner. For advisors, however, the bigger story is what happens next. A stronger competitor in custody could affect everything from technology and pricing to referral opportunities and the choices available to breakaway advisors. There are also important questions still unanswered. Vanguard operates its own advice businesses. Altruist’s speed and fintech culture may be tested inside a much larger organization. And while Vanguard says Altruist will remain independent, the longer-term operating model remains to be seen. The deal may not change advisors’ options immediately. But it has the potential to change the competitive dynamics surrounding those options considerably. Topics Covered Vanguard’s acquisition of Altruist RIA custody competition Schwab and Fidelity Altruist’s technology and Hazel AI Vanguard’s financial advice strategy Custodian brand recognition for breakaway advisors Advisor referral networks Custody and technology pricing Direct advice and custodian conflicts The future of RIA platforms and Supportive Independence > Download a transcript of this episode… Listen and Learn Highlights for Advisors Why is the Vanguard-Altruist acquisition significant for RIA custody? (03:53)Louis explains why custody has remained highly concentrated around Schwab and Fidelity and how combining Vanguard’s scale and reputation with Altruist’s technology could create a much stronger third competitor. What problem does Vanguard potentially solve for Altruist? (05:01)Altruist has built a strong reputation among advisors for its technology, but larger breakaway teams have sometimes questioned whether clients would recognize or trust the brand. Vanguard could significantly reduce that concern. Why does buying Altruist make sense for Vanguard? (07:00)Vanguard has more than 50 million investors and has publicly discussed the need to expand access to financial advice. Louis considers how Altruist could give Vanguard both additional capacity and a stronger connection to independent advisors. What does Altruist gain from Vanguard beyond capital? (09:51)Louis discusses the significance of having a long-term, investor-owned parent rather than remaining dependent on successive rounds of venture capital, while gaining additional resources to develop custody, technology, and Hazel AI. How could this acquisition change the choices available to breakaway advisors? (12:33)The combination of Altruist’s technology with Vanguard’s brand could make the platform more viable for larger teams that previously hesitated because of client recognition and trust concerns. Could Vanguard become a meaningful source of client referrals to RIAs? (13:42)With millions of existing investors and more demand for advice than Vanguard can necessarily serve internally, Louis considers whether a future referral program connecting Vanguard clients with Altruist RIAs could become an important competitive advantage. What are the potential risks of the Vanguard-Altruist combination? (16:54)The acquisition also raises questions around Vanguard’s competing advice business, Altruist’s long-term independence, differences in corporate culture, innovation speed, and talent retention. What could happen next across the custody market? (20:00)Louis offers several predictions, including responses from Schwab and Fidelity, wider adoption of Hazel AI, a potential Vanguard-Altruist referral channel, and greater use of Altruist by breakaway advisors. Key Takeaways Vanguard’s acquisition of Altruist could introduce a more formidable competitor into an RIA custody market heavily concentrated around Schwab and Fidelity. Vanguard addresses one of Altruist’s biggest challenges with larger breakaway teams: providing a widely recognized financial brand that advisors can more easily explain to clients. Altruist gives Vanguard a technology-forward entry point into RIA custody as Vanguard continues expanding its strategy around access to financial advice. Advisors could benefit from greater competition through pressure on custody and technology pricing, service, product development, and innovation. A future referral channel could become an important part of the combination, particularly given Vanguard’s enormous investor base and Altruist’s growing network of RIAs. The acquisition also introduces potential conflicts and execution risks, including Vanguard’s own advice businesses, the integration of two very different corporate cultures, and questions about whether Altruist can maintain its speed and independence over time. For breakaway advisors, the custody shortlist may have changed: Altruist can now pair its technology and fintech capabilities with the capital and reputation of Vanguard. https://youtu.be/UlgCBjLXrnw Quotable Moments “Custody is really a trust business.”— Louis Diamond (05:55) “Every time a well-capitalized player shows up, especially in custody, advisors win.”— Louis Diamond (12:33) “Really, it’s tech-forward independence now without a brand trade-off.”— Louis Diamond (13:42) “There are always innovators showing up from outside the establishment, and every time one succeeds, advisors end up with more options and more leverage and more negotiating power than they had the year before.”— Louis Diamond (22:44) FAQs Why is Vanguard acquiring Altruist? Louis sees several strategic reasons for the acquisition. Altruist gives Vanguard an established technology and custody platform serving more than 6,000 advisors, while potentially expanding Vanguard’s ability to reach investors through independent financial advisors. It may also provide another distribution channel for Vanguard investment products and future offerings. What does Vanguard’s acquisition mean for Altruist? Altruist gains the backing of one of the world’s largest and best-known investment firms while retaining, at least initially, its brand, leadership, and operating structure. Vanguard’s capital could allow Altruist to continue investing in custody capabilities, technology, and products such as Hazel AI without relying on additional venture funding rounds. How could the acquisition affect RIA custody competition? Schwab and Fidelity currently dominate RIA custody. Louis believes a Vanguard-backed Altruist could become a stronger challenger by combining Altruist’s technology and pricing model with Vanguard’s scale, capital, and reputation. That could increase competitive pressure around pricing, service, technology, and innovation. Why could the deal matter to breakaway advisors? Altruist’s technology has attracted advisor interest, but some larger breakaway teams have questioned whether clients would be comfortable holding substantial wealth with a less familiar custodian. Vanguard’s ownership could substantially reduce that brand-recognition hurdle and make Altruist a more viable option for larger teams. Could Vanguard refer clients to advisors using Altruist? No referral program has been announced. However, Louis believes it is an important possibility to watch. Vanguard has more than 50 million investors, while Altruist provides access to thousands of independent advisors. Connecting investors seeking human advice with RIAs on the Altruist platform could create a meaningful new referral channel. Are there risks for advisors using a Vanguard-owned custodian? Potentially. Vanguard operates its own financial advice businesses, creating some of the same competitive concerns advisors have raised about other custodians with retail advice operations. Other questions include whether Altruist will remain operationally independent over time and whether its culture and pace of innovation can be maintained under Vanguard ownership. What happens next for Altruist, Schwab, and Fidelity? Louis expects the competitive response to be worth watching. He believes Schwab and Fidelity could respond through technology, AI, pricing, or other changes to their advisor offerings. He also expects Altruist to compete more aggressively for breakaway teams and sees the potential for Hazel AI to expand well beyond advisors who custody assets with Altruist. Does the Vanguard-Altruist deal change anything for advisors immediately? Not necessarily. The transaction still needs to close, and its longer-term impact will take time to emerge. But for advisors evaluating custodians, independence, or the value they receive from existing partners, the acquisition adds another factor to consider as the competitive landscape evolves. Louis sees several strategic reasons for the acquisition. Altruist gives Vanguard an established technology and custody platform serving more than 6,000 advisors, while potentially expanding Vanguard’s ability to reach investors through independent financial advisors. It may also provide another distribution channel for Vanguard investment products and future offerings. Altruist gains the backing of one of the world’s largest and best-known investment firms while retaining, at least initially, its brand, leadership, and operating structure. Vanguard’s capital could allow Altruist to continue investing in custody capabilities, technology, and products such as Hazel AI without relying on additional venture funding rounds. Schwab and Fidelity currently dominate RIA custody. Louis believes a Vanguard-backed Altruist could become a stronger challenger by combining Altruist’s technology and pricing model with Vanguard’s scale, capital, and reputation. That could increase competitive pressure around pricing, service, technology, and innovation. Altruist’s technology has attracted advisor interest, but some larger breakaway teams have questioned whether clients would be comfortable holding substantial wealth with a less familiar custodian. Vanguard’s ownership could substantially reduce that brand-recognition hurdle and make Altruist a more viable option for larger teams. No referral program has been announced. However, Louis believes it is an important possibility to watch. Vanguard has more than 50 million investors, while Altruist provides access to thousands of independent advisors. Connecting investors seeking human advice with RIAs on the Altruist platform could create a meaningful new referral channel. Potentially. Vanguard operates its own financial advice businesses, creating some of the same competitive concerns advisors have raised about other custodians with retail advice operations. Other questions include whether Altruist will remain operationally independent over time and whether its culture and pace of innovation can be maintained under Vanguard ownership. Louis expects the competitive response to be worth watching. He believes Schwab and Fidelity could respond through technology, AI, pricing, or other changes to their advisor offerings. He also expects Altruist to compete more aggressively for breakaway teams and sees the potential for Hazel AI to expand well beyond advisors who custody assets with Altruist. Not necessarily. The transaction still needs to close, and its longer-term impact will take time to emerge. But for advisors evaluating custodians, independence, or the value they receive from existing partners, the acquisition adds another factor to consider as the competitive landscape evolves. NOTE: The views and opinions expressed by the guests on this podcast are their own and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of Diamond Consultants. Neither Diamond Consultants nor the guests on this podcast are compensated in any way for their participation. Related Resources Rise and Reinvent: Joe Duran on Building and Rebuilding World-Class Firms From Insurance Sales to $8B RIA: A Northwestern Mutual Breakaway Story Diamond Consultants 4th Annual Advisor Transition Report View the transcript of this episode… Vanguard Acquires Altruist: What It Means for RIAs, Custody & Breakaway Advisors With Louis Diamond Louis Diamond (00:06): Welcome to the latest episode of our podcast series for financial advisors. Today’s episode is a special rapid reaction industry update, Vanguard acquires Altruist, what it means for advisors in the industry. I’m Louis Diamond, and this is The Diamond Podcast for Financial Advisors. Mindy Diamond (00:28): At Diamond Consultants, we help elite advisors identify the right environment for their businesses to thrive, whether that’s at a wirehouse, boutique, or independent firm. With nearly three decades of experience, we’ve guided thousands of advisors and represented more than a quarter of a trillion dollars in assets transitioned. And each year, one in four advisors managing a billion dollars or more who change firms are our clients. Our process is education driven and based on building relationships, starting as your strategic partner well before you’re even thinking of a move. To schedule a confidential conversation, call us at 908-879-1002. (01:21): Wondering why advisors change firms and where they’re headed? Are transition deals going up or down? Those very questions and more inspired us to create our annual advisor transition report. It’s the award-winning data-driven resource designed for advisors that connects the dots between the motivations around movement and the firm’s appetite for top talent. Arm yourself with the knowledge you need to make smart decisions. Download your copy at diamond-consultants.com/transitionreport. Louis Diamond (02:05): Funny how the biggest news in the business almost never comes from the firms everyone is watching. On Wednesday, August 26th, 2026, Vanguard announced its acquiring Altruist. If you asked me a year ago to name the company most likely to buy an RIA custodian, Vanguard would not have been near the top of my list. Vanguard was in the RIA custody business once. They left in 2003 and handed roughly $120 billion of advisor assets to TD Ameritrade on the way out. 23 years later, they’re buying their way back in, reported $4 billion or more. So let’s talk about what happened, why it matters, and where I think it goes from here. (02:48): What happened? On August 26th, 2026, a definitive agreement was announced out of Valley Forge, Pennsylvania. A deal is closing later this year where Vanguard is acquiring Altruist, the relative upstart RIA custodian. The price, an undisclosed number, but a reported $4 billion, some outlets reporting $4.6 billion or more. Either way, more than double their last private market valuation at the end of April 2025. Another element is Altruist is staying as a standalone. They’ll keep their brand, CEO, management team, and operate the same model just as a wholly owned subsidiary of Vanguard. Altruist in one breath, for those unaware, was a custodian and fintech company founded in 2018 by Jason Wenk. They became a self-clearing custodian, third largest as far as number of advisors served, north of 6,000 advisors, and had a reputation for serving smaller or upstart advisors, but recently started getting into more of the larger market breakaway space. (03:53): One estimate I’ve seen peg’s Altruist market share of RIA custody at around 6%, but you compare that to about three quarters of the market for Schwab and Fidelity combined. So a relatively small player, but a rapidly emerging player and threat in US RIA custody. This is not the first time Vanguard has been involved with Altruist. They reportedly were an early investor in Altruist back in 2020 and former Vanguard CEO, Bill McNabb, has been on the board of Altruist, so a lot of history between the firms. Let’s get into now why I think this is interesting for the industry as a whole. In my view, custody has never really been all that competitive, especially since TD Ameritrade sold to Schwab. You really had an oligopoly between Schwab and Fidelity. Sure, there’s a number of compelling, say more boutique custodians, whether Pershing Advisor Solutions, Goldman Sachs, which was another newer entrant to custody, LPL, Raymond James, First Clearing, and a number of others are also in the space, but it is a market that is dramatically dominated by the two largest players. (05:01): So I think this matters because you add an amazing venerable brand and reputation of Vanguard with this scrappy upstart custodian, and all of a sudden you can see a world where custody is one of the more competitive spaces in the industry. Altruist, in my view too, was one of the first credible challengers to the incumbent custodians in 20-ish years. Goldman has since picked up some decent market share and certainly they’re attractive for the segment of advisors. But Altruist with their tech-forward approach, low fees, and even just the way they went to market as an antagonist to Schwab and Fidelity, they’re a big deal and I think this just magnifies what they’re able to do. The gap though for Altruist was brand and reputation. Sure, they had amazing tech. No one ever has doubted that. Hazel AI, which they recently launched has been very well received. (05:55): Advisors I’ve worked with who have demoed the platform are incredibly impressed. The big Achilles heel though for Altruist has been my clients don’t know who Altruist is. Why would my clients put their millions of dollars of wealth with a self-clearing custodian that doesn’t have the same scale or reputation as the incumbent custodians? Well, that really goes away here. And at the end of the day, custody is really a trust business, but you’d have to think that a client would trust their assets held with Vanguard or with Altruist through Vanguard in a very similar way that they would trust assets held by Bank of New York Mellon or Charles Schwab or Fidelity Investments or Goldman Sachs. So to me, Vanguard acquiring Altruist solves that problem in one sentence, very simple. Why I think this makes sense for Vanguard? Salim Ramji, the CEO of Vanguard, has been saying since he arrived from BlackRock two years ago that only one in five Americans work with a fee-based financial advisor and that quality advice shouldn’t be a luxury good and this shortage is only going to get worse as advisors retire. (07:00): This is really him putting his money where his mouth is and really trying to make financial advice, human directed financial advice more accessible to everyday Americans and the upper echelons of wealth in this country. Vanguard as a company has over 50 million reported investors and over 12 trillion in assets. A lot of these people want Vanguard advice, but Vanguard hasn’t had the manpower or the capacity to deliver it itself. Buying Altruist over time can certainly solve that capacity gap and make it so that a human-based financial advisor or any of Vanguard’s internal platforms now have a greater ability to provide advice to Americans looking for financial advisors in the United States. I think this also means more distribution capability for Vanguard funds. Not that Vanguard has ever had a problem with distribution. They have a relatively small wholesaling force compared to other firms, but given their cost and reputation and performance, they’re really on pretty much every platform. (08:04): Most advisors have some clients that are invested into Vanguard mutual funds or ETFs, but this I think just gives them a greater ability to distribute Vanguard products, probably in a similar way to Goldman’s approach. When Goldman entered US RIA custody, in large part, they were doing it for distribution of different things. For Goldman, it was private markets and lending and other types of products. Vanguard is more ETFs and mutual funds, but Vanguard has also been pushing more into the private market space, so I can definitely see a world in which they can ratchet up the distribution of their products in a fairly cost-efficient way. I think to me, the most interesting thing about this marriage is the mission overlap is quite real. When Vanguard started, and to this day, their goal was to provide quality investment products at a fraction of the cost of the incumbents so that investing can be accessible to everyday Americans. (08:59): That’s exactly the verbiage that Jason Wenk and Altruist has used from the beginning, where they want to become a all-in-one hub or tech-enabled custodian so that an advisor, regardless of their size and a client regardless of their AUM, have the ability to get quality advice. I recently listened to a podcast called Acquired. We’ll link it in the show notes, but it’s a three-hour in-depth look into the building of Vanguard. And if you combine that with the podcast episode that I recorded with Jason Wenk, the CEO of Altruist, if you play them side by side, the parallels are eerily similar. So we’ll link both into the show notes, but I really think both of these firms were cut from the same cloth and really from the beginning, both have gone against the grain and tried to rattle incumbent players in the industry. So at least on paper, seems like a very good match. (09:51): Why does this deal make sense for Altruist? For one, for Jason Wenk and his leadership team, this has to be the outcome you drew up, maybe even better. Founding a new custodian in 2018, selling it in 2026, eight years later for over $4 billion, that’s a pretty incredible return on time for this team. They deserve it all and built something special and really entered into a space where no one wanted to venture just given the market share of the major incumbents, but good for them and has to feel good to pull off this type of sale. I think the big thing too is the buyer is the story. Vanguard as a company, it’s investor owned. They’re not private equity owned. They’re not VC backed like Altruist was. So Altruist can get off of the fundraising treadmill. They don’t have to worry about fund life or a five-year hold period or an eventual sale to a strategic. (10:42): Now they can really just focus on the business at hand, having one of the most well-capitalized companies in the world as their capital backer and owner. And every advisor on a PE-backed platform knows the question hanging over every relationship, who owns this next? That’s a question they won’t have to answer anymore at all, and they can really just focus now going forward. I think this also gives Altruist a fortress balance sheet and a ton of capital to keep pushing and developing their Hazel AI platform, which was launched in September 2025. Hazel’s an AI tax planning tool, kind of AI superpower that really has taken the industry by storm and has started to be sold as a standalone product to RIAs. And from what I’ve seen, they’ve sold it to over 1600 new RIAs just in the first month alone for $60 a seat per month, and that’s available to folks if they custody at Altruist or not. (11:36): So this, I think, just gives them an ability to distribute their fintech solutions and certainly develop their custody platform in a way that maybe was challenging or not as possible before. They can also take a longer term view instead of having to worry about they raised a series F, whatever comes after F and an eventual sale, investors wanting to get a return on capital, they can now focus on building over the long term, which has been Vanguard’s strategy all along. I think too, this will give Altruist the ability to invest in new capabilities that they didn’t have before, whether it’s lending or whether it’s more on the product side. It takes a lot to be a custodian. It seems like a relatively straightforward business just holding assets, but there’s a lot of products, solutions, really requirements that everyday investors and RIA clients have, and I think this will just ratchet up Altruist’s ability to close some of the capability gaps that they’ve had since they launched and they’re very transparent about those. (12:33): What I’m most excited about this, just coming from my vantage point in the industry, is why should an advisor care? To me, there’s five things that advisors should really take notice of with this acquisition. First one’s competition. Every time a well-capitalized player shows up, especially in custody, advisors win. Schwab and Fidelity have fought Vanguard in the asset management space for decades, and more recently in financial advice. Now you’re adding custody against a firm that doesn’t need to be profitable the next quarter, and all of a sudden we very much have an arms race and some competition is good for pricing, for service, for innovation, and I think this is going to be only positives for clients across the country, having another competitive option and keeping the incumbents really on their toes. Another reason, the breakaway shortlist has changed. Objection I always heard about Altruist was, “The tech is great, the AI seems cool, but how do I explain the name Altruist to a 68-year-old client who’s leaving Merrill or UBS or Morgan Stanley?” (13:42): While someone may still get some objections because Vanguard may not have the same brand cache as Goldman Sachs or UBS Private Wealth or Merrill Private Wealth, that objection got a lot weaker today. Really, it’s tech-forward independence now without a brand trade-off. It’s a genuinely different offer in the market than it was before. Third, I think this is one that hasn’t been talked about much, but should be watched closely, potential for referrals. Schwab confirmed last week that it was taking the SAN or the Schwab Advisor Network client referral minimum from two million to five million. For anyone not aware, referrals from the retail branches of Schwab and Fidelity are one of the major organic growth funnels for many of the top RIAs in this country and have driven valuations to billions and billions of dollars for firms that are in this program. (14:36): I really do see this as being a potential new massive referral opportunity of Vanguard existing clients and customers to Altruist custody to RIAs at a time when Schwab is trying to keep more of those referrals from themselves, which is a very savvy strategy, but at the same time, probably creates a bit of an opening for Altruist and Vanguard to become a really good referral hub for clients, which is a major draw for signing up new RIAs as clients, for breakaway advisors, et cetera. (15:07): So more details need to come there. We don’t even know if they’re starting a referral channel, but I have to imagine that’s high in the punch list and will be a very compelling offering in the marketplace. Yeah, think about it. Vanguard is 50 million investors and a CEO who said multiple times that they don’t have enough advisors or humans to deliver this advice. So perfect. You now have a massive array of RIAs and more and more coming to the table who offer that advice and being able to still serve them, still keep the assets in-house, but do it in a way where Vanguard doesn’t have to scale up their advisor force. They now have advisors to refer to. Fourth is pricing. I think the Vanguard effect is going to be real here. When Vanguard started, and even to this day, they’ve been the one who’ve pushed down the expense ratio on mutual funds and ETFs. (15:56): It’s been a massive benefit to investors across this country. It’s been Altruist’s playbook all along too, more focused on the advisor, so offering amazing tech and a custody platform for virtually no cost to an advisor. So I would say whatever you’re paying for technology, for custody, and really anything else that Altruist and Vanguard might touch, I would expect it to go down potentially and just have more pressures on the incumbent firms to really sharpen their pencil or to get more creative on pricing and innovation. I think that the fifth thing to keep in mind is Schwab has long used its scale and positioning in the market to best competitors, whether it was going to $0 on tickets for equities and ETFs, et cetera, a number of years ago or a number of other strategies they’ve taken. Now you have a firm that has similar scale as Schwab, a reputation for playing the long game and being comfortable making less money in the process. (16:54): So again, massive benefit to the advisors to have another major player driving down costs and increasing innovation in the space. But this is not all positives. As with anything, there’s the good and the bad, and also some open questions. The biggest, I think, downside or potential thing to watch here, and certainly if you are a BDO at a custodian, this is the line you’re using, “Vanguard has its own advice business, personal advisor, digital advisor, and a CEO who stated that his goal is that an advisor is in every investor’s pocket.” So now you have the custodian that’s holding your client’s assets also running one of the largest advice operations in the country. We’ve heard this concern in the past about Schwab or Fidelity where you have RA custody and then these firms have massive retail distribution networks. So certainly Vanguard, I think, will be in the same lane. (17:46): And if you look at a Pershing or an LPL or Raymond James, it’s a little bit different because they don’t have their own channels in the same way that Schwab or Fidelity do. So certainly if you’re BNY Mellon in particular, which is a straight B2B custodian, this is a clear point of differentiation for Vanguard, Altruist and certainly versus the other custodians. Next one is Vanguard has said that Altruist will remain a standalone business. The brand will stay intact, the management team, et cetera. But in fairness, every acquirer says versions of the same thing. The real test is let’s wait two years, three years and see how converging roles or similar roles across the firm start to converge into one, and over time will they more Altruist brand and human capital into one structure. (18:36): Right now we don’t know, but I’m always a bit skeptical with acquisitions that you have the honeymoon period, takes time for the deals to close, and then what happens a couple of years down the line? Either as there’s new executives in charge, there’s turnover, or just there’s certain synergies that can be had, and the best way to do it is by combining operations and the like. (18:56): The next risk, I think it might sound a little bit mundane, but it’s culture and speed. Vanguard based in Valley Forge, Pennsylvania, Altruist in LA, very different cultures. Altruist as a fintech company has been superfast to market, building, breaking things, innovating. And Vanguard, I think they’ve been extremely innovative on pricing, on product development, but I’ve never heard amazing reviews about Vanguard’s technology. So does this convergence of cultures create an issue? Does it create more bureaucracy for Altruist trying to build stuff? Is there a cultural mismatch when it comes to speed of market and innovation? And I think the last thing to keep in mind or to watch is the talent drainage at Altruist post-closing. Yes, I was a FinTech company and custodian offering equity, lots of upside for people that have taken this journey with them. Vanguard notoriously is the opposite. They don’t offer equity to anyone and they offer their employees high base salaries and you have a culture of longevity within the firm. (20:00): So after the lockup period is done for, or the earn out period is done for any Altruist equity owners and many of their employees, does that cause some talent drainage where folks want to go onto the next big thing, think what will happen to all the amazing SpaceX employees a year from now when their IPO lockups are done? Does that lead them to another opportunity? All these are questions I don’t know, but trying to play devil’s advocate. I think the biggest potential negative is just the Vanguard advice business as a competitor, a conflict to RIA custody. Let me give you a couple of predictions before we wrap here. I think Schwab and Fidelity will respond fast, whether it’s on the AI front or because the pressure is really on. I don’t know, maybe the $5 million referral minimum that Schwab just announced, maybe that sunsets after a period of time. I have no idea. (20:53): I’m also excited to see, we’ll call it the tech face off between Altruist and Robinhood. Robinhood acquired TradePMR, which is on the Wells Fargo First Clearing platform and is in the process of launching an RIA custodian themselves. So now you have, I think, two pretty incredible tech-forward custodians really trying to gain market share, so that will be fun to watch. Could there be a threat in the RIA platform space? So RIA platforms meaning RIAs, we call them supportive versions of independence, where advisors can plug into, they get technology, compliance, operations, et cetera, and still own their business. Given the end-to-end tech stack that Altruist boasts, and they’ve also been in development of their own corporate RIA, does that become that much more of a competitive feature that could possibly become a solution in and of itself that takes a dent out of these RIA platforms playbook? (21:45): I don’t know, but I think it’s possible. Altruist Hazel AI, does that push even well beyond custody? There’s a ton of AI and fintechs popping up around the industry. Hazel has certainly taken a lot of headlines and attention. With Vanguard behind it now, does that push the price lower? Does it help their distribution? Maybe you picture this, if you have a Vanguard-owned product sitting in the daily workflow of a competitor’s advisors, so let’s say you’re a Morgan Stanley, you’re a Schwab advisor, et cetera, do you now have a Vanguard-owned product in Hazel as part of your workflow or your fintech stack? Could be interesting. I will call a referral channel for Vanguard or Altruist, we’ll say within the next year or two. I think it would be crazy if that didn’t happen and that will be a massive disruptor. And finally, my prediction is more breakaways landing in Altruist. They’ve started to crack that door, but now with the powerful brand and reputation behind them, the sky’s probably the limit. (22:44): So in closing, a guy, Jason Wenk, started a company in 2018 in Los Angeles because he thought independent advisors deserve better software at a lower price. Eight years later, one of the most respected financial institutions in the world paid $4 billion for it, and the reason is he was right in that bet. There are always innovators showing up from outside the establishment, and every time one succeeds, advisors end up with more options and more leverage and more negotiating power than they had the year before. It’s a consistent theme across the industry. So nothing changes tomorrow, deals take time, deals have a way of falling apart, but if you’re evaluating custodians, thinking about independence for the first time, wondering whether your current partner is going to keep earning your business, today is a good day to reopen that question. And if you’re an advisor, I think cheer this on and be excited. (23:42): And as a industry participant, I am very excited to see how this deal takes hold and how this pushes the rest of the industry to innovate and continue to be better. So that’s it for today. Thank you for hearing my ramblings, and I’ll see you next time. Mindy Diamond (24:02): As a financial advisor, you hold yourself to the highest standards of integrity, honesty, and credibility. You are successful because you take your professional responsibilities seriously and are dedicated to your clients, but are you living your best business life? Are your goals aligned with your firms or could a better option exist? Should I Stay Or Should I Go? Is a book written with you in mind. It’s a self-guided journey that walks you through the key steps that we take with our advisor clients. This strategic thought process and roadmap to professional self-discovery is designed to help you ask the right questions and think critically and objectively, whether you’re considering change or not. Learn how to get your copy at diamond-consultants.com/thebook. Vanguard Acquires Altruist: What It Means for RIAs, Custody & Breakaway Advisors With Louis Diamond Louis Diamond (00:06): Welcome to the latest episode of our podcast series for financial advisors. Today’s episode is a special rapid reaction industry update, Vanguard acquires Altruist, what it means for advisors in the industry. I’m Louis Diamond, and this is The Diamond Podcast for Financial Advisors. Mindy Diamond (00:28): At Diamond Consultants, we help elite advisors identify the right environment for their businesses to thrive, whether that’s at a wirehouse, boutique, or independent firm. With nearly three decades of experience, we’ve guided thousands of advisors and represented more than a quarter of a trillion dollars in assets transitioned. And each year, one in four advisors managing a billion dollars or more who change firms are our clients. Our process is education driven and based on building relationships, starting as your strategic partner well before you’re even thinking of a move. To schedule a confidential conversation, call us at 908-879-1002. (01:21): Wondering why advisors change firms and where they’re headed? Are transition deals going up or down? Those very questions and more inspired us to create our annual advisor transition report. It’s the award-winning data-driven resource designed for advisors that connects the dots between the motivations around movement and the firm’s appetite for top talent. Arm yourself with the knowledge you need to make smart decisions. Download your copy at diamond-consultants.com/transitionreport. Louis Diamond (02:05): Funny how the biggest news in the business almost never comes from the firms everyone is watching. On Wednesday, August 26th, 2026, Vanguard announced its acquiring Altruist. If you asked me a year ago to name the company most likely to buy an RIA custodian, Vanguard would not have been near the top of my list. Vanguard was in the RIA custody business once. They left in 2003 and handed roughly $120 billion of advisor assets to TD Ameritrade on the way out. 23 years later, they’re buying their way back in, reported $4 billion or more. So let’s talk about what happened, why it matters, and where I think it goes from here. (02:48): What happened? On August 26th, 2026, a definitive agreement was announced out of Valley Forge, Pennsylvania. A deal is closing later this year where Vanguard is acquiring Altruist, the relative upstart RIA custodian. The price, an undisclosed number, but a reported $4 billion, some outlets reporting $4.6 billion or more. Either way, more than double their last private market valuation at the end of April 2025. Another element is Altruist is staying as a standalone. They’ll keep their brand, CEO, management team, and operate the same model just as a wholly owned subsidiary of Vanguard. Altruist in one breath, for those unaware, was a custodian and fintech company founded in 2018 by Jason Wenk. They became a self-clearing custodian, third largest as far as number of advisors served, north of 6,000 advisors, and had a reputation for serving smaller or upstart advisors, but recently started getting into more of the larger market breakaway space. (03:53): One estimate I’ve seen peg’s Altruist market share of RIA custody at around 6%, but you compare that to about three quarters of the market for Schwab and Fidelity combined. So a relatively small player, but a rapidly emerging player and threat in US RIA custody. This is not the first time Vanguard has been involved with Altruist. They reportedly were an early investor in Altruist back in 2020 and former Vanguard CEO, Bill McNabb, has been on the board of Altruist, so a lot of history between the firms. Let’s get into now why I think this is interesting for the industry as a whole. In my view, custody has never really been all that competitive, especially since TD Ameritrade sold to Schwab. You really had an oligopoly between Schwab and Fidelity. Sure, there’s a number of compelling, say more boutique custodians, whether Pershing Advisor Solutions, Goldman Sachs, which was another newer entrant to custody, LPL, Raymond James, First Clearing, and a number of others are also in the space, but it is a market that is dramatically dominated by the two largest players. (05:01): So I think this matters because you add an amazing venerable brand and reputation of Vanguard with this scrappy upstart custodian, and all of a sudden you can see a world where custody is one of the more competitive spaces in the industry. Altruist, in my view too, was one of the first credible challengers to the incumbent custodians in 20-ish years. Goldman has since picked up some decent market share and certainly they’re attractive for the segment of advisors. But Altruist with their tech-forward approach, low fees, and even just the way they went to market as an antagonist to Schwab and Fidelity, they’re a big deal and I think this just magnifies what they’re able to do. The gap though for Altruist was brand and reputation. Sure, they had amazing tech. No one ever has doubted that. Hazel AI, which they recently launched has been very well received. (05:55): Advisors I’ve worked with who have demoed the platform are incredibly impressed. The big Achilles heel though for Altruist has been my clients don’t know who Altruist is. Why would my clients put their millions of dollars of wealth with a self-clearing custodian that doesn’t have the same scale or reputation as the incumbent custodians? Well, that really goes away here. And at the end of the day, custody is really a trust business, but you’d have to think that a client would trust their assets held with Vanguard or with Altruist through Vanguard in a very similar way that they would trust assets held by Bank of New York Mellon or Charles Schwab or Fidelity Investments or Goldman Sachs. So to me, Vanguard acquiring Altruist solves that problem in one sentence, very simple. Why I think this makes sense for Vanguard? Salim Ramji, the CEO of Vanguard, has been saying since he arrived from BlackRock two years ago that only one in five Americans work with a fee-based financial advisor and that quality advice shouldn’t be a luxury good and this shortage is only going to get worse as advisors retire. (07:00): This is really him putting his money where his mouth is and really trying to make financial advice, human directed financial advice more accessible to everyday Americans and the upper echelons of wealth in this country. Vanguard as a company has over 50 million reported investors and over 12 trillion in assets. A lot of these people want Vanguard advice, but Vanguard hasn’t had the manpower or the capacity to deliver it itself. Buying Altruist over time can certainly solve that capacity gap and make it so that a human-based financial advisor or any of Vanguard’s internal platforms now have a greater ability to provide advice to Americans looking for financial advisors in the United States. I think this also means more distribution capability for Vanguard funds. Not that Vanguard has ever had a problem with distribution. They have a relatively small wholesaling force compared to other firms, but given their cost and reputation and performance, they’re really on pretty much every platform. (08:04): Most advisors have some clients that are invested into Vanguard mutual funds or ETFs, but this I think just gives them a greater ability to distribute Vanguard products, probably in a similar way to Goldman’s approach. When Goldman entered US RIA custody, in large part, they were doing it for distribution of different things. For Goldman, it was private markets and lending and other types of products. Vanguard is more ETFs and mutual funds, but Vanguard has also been pushing more into the private market space, so I can definitely see a world in which they can ratchet up the distribution of their products in a fairly cost-efficient way. I think to me, the most interesting thing about this marriage is the mission overlap is quite real. When Vanguard started, and to this day, their goal was to provide quality investment products at a fraction of the cost of the incumbents so that investing can be accessible to everyday Americans. (08:59): That’s exactly the verbiage that Jason Wenk and Altruist has used from the beginning, where they want to become a all-in-one hub or tech-enabled custodian so that an advisor, regardless of their size and a client regardless of their AUM, have the ability to get quality advice. I recently listened to a podcast called Acquired. We’ll link it in the show notes, but it’s a three-hour in-depth look into the building of Vanguard. And if you combine that with the podcast episode that I recorded with Jason Wenk, the CEO of Altruist, if you play them side by side, the parallels are eerily similar. So we’ll link both into the show notes, but I really think both of these firms were cut from the same cloth and really from the beginning, both have gone against the grain and tried to rattle incumbent players in the industry. So at least on paper, seems like a very good match. (09:51): Why does this deal make sense for Altruist? For one, for Jason Wenk and his leadership team, this has to be the outcome you drew up, maybe even better. Founding a new custodian in 2018, selling it in 2026, eight years later for over $4 billion, that’s a pretty incredible return on time for this team. They deserve it all and built something special and really entered into a space where no one wanted to venture just given the market share of the major incumbents, but good for them and has to feel good to pull off this type of sale. I think the big thing too is the buyer is the story. Vanguard as a company, it’s investor owned. They’re not private equity owned. They’re not VC backed like Altruist was. So Altruist can get off of the fundraising treadmill. They don’t have to worry about fund life or a five-year hold period or an eventual sale to a strategic. (10:42): Now they can really just focus on the business at hand, having one of the most well-capitalized companies in the world as their capital backer and owner. And every advisor on a PE-backed platform knows the question hanging over every relationship, who owns this next? That’s a question they won’t have to answer anymore at all, and they can really just focus now going forward. I think this also gives Altruist a fortress balance sheet and a ton of capital to keep pushing and developing their Hazel AI platform, which was launched in September 2025. Hazel’s an AI tax planning tool, kind of AI superpower that really has taken the industry by storm and has started to be sold as a standalone product to RIAs. And from what I’ve seen, they’ve sold it to over 1600 new RIAs just in the first month alone for $60 a seat per month, and that’s available to folks if they custody at Altruist or not. (11:36): So this, I think, just gives them an ability to distribute their fintech solutions and certainly develop their custody platform in a way that maybe was challenging or not as possible before. They can also take a longer term view instead of having to worry about they raised a series F, whatever comes after F and an eventual sale, investors wanting to get a return on capital, they can now focus on building over the long term, which has been Vanguard’s strategy all along. I think too, this will give Altruist the ability to invest in new capabilities that they didn’t have before, whether it’s lending or whether it’s more on the product side. It takes a lot to be a custodian. It seems like a relatively straightforward business just holding assets, but there’s a lot of products, solutions, really requirements that everyday investors and RIA clients have, and I think this will just ratchet up Altruist’s ability to close some of the capability gaps that they’ve had since they launched and they’re very transparent about those. (12:33): What I’m most excited about this, just coming from my vantage point in the industry, is why should an advisor care? To me, there’s five things that advisors should really take notice of with this acquisition. First one’s competition. Every time a well-capitalized player shows up, especially in custody, advisors win. Schwab and Fidelity have fought Vanguard in the asset management space for decades, and more recently in financial advice. Now you’re adding custody against a firm that doesn’t need to be profitable the next quarter, and all of a sudden we very much have an arms race and some competition is good for pricing, for service, for innovation, and I think this is going to be only positives for clients across the country, having another competitive option and keeping the incumbents really on their toes. Another reason, the breakaway shortlist has changed. Objection I always heard about Altruist was, “The tech is great, the AI seems cool, but how do I explain the name Altruist to a 68-year-old client who’s leaving Merrill or UBS or Morgan Stanley?” (13:42): While someone may still get some objections because Vanguard may not have the same brand cache as Goldman Sachs or UBS Private Wealth or Merrill Private Wealth, that objection got a lot weaker today. Really, it’s tech-forward independence now without a brand trade-off. It’s a genuinely different offer in the market than it was before. Third, I think this is one that hasn’t been talked about much, but should be watched closely, potential for referrals. Schwab confirmed last week that it was taking the SAN or the Schwab Advisor Network client referral minimum from two million to five million. For anyone not aware, referrals from the retail branches of Schwab and Fidelity are one of the major organic growth funnels for many of the top RIAs in this country and have driven valuations to billions and billions of dollars for firms that are in this program. (14:36): I really do see this as being a potential new massive referral opportunity of Vanguard existing clients and customers to Altruist custody to RIAs at a time when Schwab is trying to keep more of those referrals from themselves, which is a very savvy strategy, but at the same time, probably creates a bit of an opening for Altruist and Vanguard to become a really good referral hub for clients, which is a major draw for signing up new RIAs as clients, for breakaway advisors, et cetera. (15:07): So more details need to come there. We don’t even know if they’re starting a referral channel, but I have to imagine that’s high in the punch list and will be a very compelling offering in the marketplace. Yeah, think about it. Vanguard is 50 million investors and a CEO who said multiple times that they don’t have enough advisors or humans to deliver this advice. So perfect. You now have a massive array of RIAs and more and more coming to the table who offer that advice and being able to still serve them, still keep the assets in-house, but do it in a way where Vanguard doesn’t have to scale up their advisor force. They now have advisors to refer to. Fourth is pricing. I think the Vanguard effect is going to be real here. When Vanguard started, and even to this day, they’ve been the one who’ve pushed down the expense ratio on mutual funds and ETFs. (15:56): It’s been a massive benefit to investors across this country. It’s been Altruist’s playbook all along too, more focused on the advisor, so offering amazing tech and a custody platform for virtually no cost to an advisor. So I would say whatever you’re paying for technology, for custody, and really anything else that Altruist and Vanguard might touch, I would expect it to go down potentially and just have more pressures on the incumbent firms to really sharpen their pencil or to get more creative on pricing and innovation. I think that the fifth thing to keep in mind is Schwab has long used its scale and positioning in the market to best competitors, whether it was going to $0 on tickets for equities and ETFs, et cetera, a number of years ago or a number of other strategies they’ve taken. Now you have a firm that has similar scale as Schwab, a reputation for playing the long game and being comfortable making less money in the process. (16:54): So again, massive benefit to the advisors to have another major player driving down costs and increasing innovation in the space. But this is not all positives. As with anything, there’s the good and the bad, and also some open questions. The biggest, I think, downside or potential thing to watch here, and certainly if you are a BDO at a custodian, this is the line you’re using, “Vanguard has its own advice business, personal advisor, digital advisor, and a CEO who stated that his goal is that an advisor is in every investor’s pocket.” So now you have the custodian that’s holding your client’s assets also running one of the largest advice operations in the country. We’ve heard this concern in the past about Schwab or Fidelity where you have RA custody and then these firms have massive retail distribution networks. So certainly Vanguard, I think, will be in the same lane. (17:46): And if you look at a Pershing or an LPL or Raymond James, it’s a little bit different because they don’t have their own channels in the same way that Schwab or Fidelity do. So certainly if you’re BNY Mellon in particular, which is a straight B2B custodian, this is a clear point of differentiation for Vanguard, Altruist and certainly versus the other custodians. Next one is Vanguard has said that Altruist will remain a standalone business. The brand will stay intact, the management team, et cetera. But in fairness, every acquirer says versions of the same thing. The real test is let’s wait two years, three years and see how converging roles or similar roles across the firm start to converge into one, and over time will they more Altruist brand and human capital into one structure. (18:36): Right now we don’t know, but I’m always a bit skeptical with acquisitions that you have the honeymoon period, takes time for the deals to close, and then what happens a couple of years down the line? Either as there’s new executives in charge, there’s turnover, or just there’s certain synergies that can be had, and the best way to do it is by combining operations and the like. (18:56): The next risk, I think it might sound a little bit mundane, but it’s culture and speed. Vanguard based in Valley Forge, Pennsylvania, Altruist in LA, very different cultures. Altruist as a fintech company has been superfast to market, building, breaking things, innovating. And Vanguard, I think they’ve been extremely innovative on pricing, on product development, but I’ve never heard amazing reviews about Vanguard’s technology. So does this convergence of cultures create an issue? Does it create more bureaucracy for Altruist trying to build stuff? Is there a cultural mismatch when it comes to speed of market and innovation? And I think the last thing to keep in mind or to watch is the talent drainage at Altruist post-closing. Yes, I was a FinTech company and custodian offering equity, lots of upside for people that have taken this journey with them. Vanguard notoriously is the opposite. They don’t offer equity to anyone and they offer their employees high base salaries and you have a culture of longevity within the firm. (20:00): So after the lockup period is done for, or the earn out period is done for any Altruist equity owners and many of their employees, does that cause some talent drainage where folks want to go onto the next big thing, think what will happen to all the amazing SpaceX employees a year from now when their IPO lockups are done? Does that lead them to another opportunity? All these are questions I don’t know, but trying to play devil’s advocate. I think the biggest potential negative is just the Vanguard advice business as a competitor, a conflict to RIA custody. Let me give you a couple of predictions before we wrap here. I think Schwab and Fidelity will respond fast, whether it’s on the AI front or because the pressure is really on. I don’t know, maybe the $5 million referral minimum that Schwab just announced, maybe that sunsets after a period of time. I have no idea. (20:53): I’m also excited to see, we’ll call it the tech face off between Altruist and Robinhood. Robinhood acquired TradePMR, which is on the Wells Fargo First Clearing platform and is in the process of launching an RIA custodian themselves. So now you have, I think, two pretty incredible tech-forward custodians really trying to gain market share, so that will be fun to watch. Could there be a threat in the RIA platform space? So RIA platforms meaning RIAs, we call them supportive versions of independence, where advisors can plug into, they get technology, compliance, operations, et cetera, and still own their business. Given the end-to-end tech stack that Altruist boasts, and they’ve also been in development of their own corporate RIA, does that become that much more of a competitive feature that could possibly become a solution in and of itself that takes a dent out of these RIA platforms playbook? (21:45): I don’t know, but I think it’s possible. Altruist Hazel AI, does that push even well beyond custody? There’s a ton of AI and fintechs popping up around the industry. Hazel has certainly taken a lot of headlines and attention. With Vanguard behind it now, does that push the price lower? Does it help their distribution? Maybe you picture this, if you have a Vanguard-owned product sitting in the daily workflow of a competitor’s advisors, so let’s say you’re a Morgan Stanley, you’re a Schwab advisor, et cetera, do you now have a Vanguard-owned product in Hazel as part of your workflow or your fintech stack? Could be interesting. I will call a referral channel for Vanguard or Altruist, we’ll say within the next year or two. I think it would be crazy if that didn’t happen and that will be a massive disruptor. And finally, my prediction is more breakaways landing in Altruist. They’ve started to crack that door, but now with the powerful brand and reputation behind them, the sky’s probably the limit. (22:44): So in closing, a guy, Jason Wenk, started a company in 2018 in Los Angeles because he thought independent advisors deserve better software at a lower price. Eight years later, one of the most respected financial institutions in the world paid $4 billion for it, and the reason is he was right in that bet. There are always innovators showing up from outside the establishment, and every time one succeeds, advisors end up with more options and more leverage and more negotiating power than they had the year before. It’s a consistent theme across the industry. So nothing changes tomorrow, deals take time, deals have a way of falling apart, but if you’re evaluating custodians, thinking about independence for the first time, wondering whether your current partner is going to keep earning your business, today is a good day to reopen that question. And if you’re an advisor, I think cheer this on and be excited. (23:42): And as a industry participant, I am very excited to see how this deal takes hold and how this pushes the rest of the industry to innovate and continue to be better. So that’s it for today. Thank you for hearing my ramblings, and I’ll see you next time. Mindy Diamond (24:02): As a financial advisor, you hold yourself to the highest standards of integrity, honesty, and credibility. You are successful because you take your professional responsibilities seriously and are dedicated to your clients, but are you living your best business life? Are your goals aligned with your firms or could a better option exist? Should I Stay Or Should I Go? Is a book written with you in mind. It’s a self-guided journey that walks you through the key steps that we take with our advisor clients. This strategic thought process and roadmap to professional self-discovery is designed to help you ask the right questions and think critically and objectively, whether you’re considering change or not. Learn how to get your copy at diamond-consultants.com/thebook.

   August 27, 2026·26min
   Play
5. 5
   Number 5: Growth Without Compromise: Building Around the Advisor Experience

   Shannon Spotswood – CEO, RFG Advisory Choosing a platform isn’t just about technology or economics. It’s about finding a partner that helps you build the business you actually want to own. Shannon Spotswood explains why growth without compromise starts with choosing the right partner. In Summary What should advisors really look for in a platform partner? Jason Diamond sits down with Shannon Spotswood, CEO of RFG Advisory, to discuss why the best platforms do more than provide technology and operational support—they help advisors build stronger businesses. Shannon shares lessons from helping grow RFG into one of the industry’s leading supportive independence firms, covering everything from private equity partnerships and advisor experience to enterprise value, branding, and overcoming the fear that keeps many advisors from pursuing the business they truly want. The Storyline Most advisors evaluating independence compare technology, payouts, and service offerings. Shannon Spotswood believes they’re asking the wrong first question. After spending two decades in institutional investing and later helping to rebuild RFG Advisory from the ground up, Shannon has developed a philosophy centered on partnership. She argues that the best platforms function less like vendors and more like long-term business partners, helping advisors spend more time with clients, build enterprise value, and create businesses aligned with their vision rather than forcing compromises. Jason and Shannon discuss what meaningful support actually looks like, why the right private equity partner can accelerate growth rather than restrict it, and why advisors should demand evidence – not marketing promises – when evaluating a platform. The conversation also explores one of the industry’s biggest obstacles to change: fear. Shannon explains why outdated assumptions about transitioning firms continue to prevent advisors from building businesses they enjoy, even though data suggests the experience is often far less disruptive than many believe. Ultimately, the discussion reframes independence itself—not as the destination, but as the beginning of choosing the right long-term partners. Topics Covered Evaluating advisor platforms as long-term business partners Building an independent business without compromise Enterprise value and organic growth Private equity as a strategic growth partner Advisor experience and client experience Branding and authenticity in wealth management Overcoming fear and transition myths Technology, outsourcing, and operational leverage Leadership, succession, and organizational growth The future of supportive independence > Download a transcript of this episode… Listen and Learn Highlights for Advisors Why should advisors think of a platform as a business partner? (10:00) Shannon explains why technology and service alone aren’t enough—and why the right partner should help advisors build the business they ultimately want to own. What does “growth without compromise” actually mean? (10:00–17:30) RFG’s philosophy centers on helping advisors focus on their highest-value work while surrounding them with integrated support designed to drive enterprise value. Can private equity make a firm better? (25:00) Rather than debating whether private equity is good or bad, Shannon explains why success depends on choosing a partner whose values and long-term vision align with yours. How should advisors evaluate competing platforms? (43:00) Her advice is simple: don’t rely on marketing. Speak with advisors already using the platform and ask firms to demonstrate – not simply promise – how they solve problems. Why does fear keep so many advisors from making a change? (48:30) Shannon discusses the “PTSD” many advisors carry from outdated transition stories and why today’s reality often looks very different. What does the future of advisor platforms look like? (34:00–42:00) The conversation explores advisor demand for greater personalization, stronger brands, AI-enabled efficiency, and partners that help advisors grow without sacrificing independence. Key Takeaways The best advisor platforms function as long-term strategic partners—not simply service providers. Enterprise value grows when advisors spend more time serving clients and less time managing operations. Private equity can be highly beneficial when partners share a common vision and respect management autonomy. Advisors should evaluate firms based on demonstrated execution rather than marketing claims. Fear remains one of the biggest barriers to advisor movement despite significant improvements in transition support. Authentic branding and deeper client relationships will become increasingly important as AI reshapes wealth management. https://youtu.be/jaSt3-mO0so Quotable Moments “The right partners make you better. The wrong ones can quietly hold you back.” “Don’t tell me. Show me.” “Everything you want is on the other side of fear.” “Your team deserves to be happy. You deserve to be happy.” FAQs What should advisors look for when evaluating an advisor platform? Shannon believes advisors should look beyond technology and economics and evaluate whether a platform acts like a true long-term business partner that helps them grow and build enterprise value. How does RFG define “growth without compromise”? By providing integrated support – from technology and compliance to marketing and coaching – that allows advisors to spend more time with clients while maintaining control of their businesses. Is private equity always good or bad for advisor firms? No. Shannon argues that success depends less on private equity itself and more on choosing partners who share the firm’s long-term vision and values. Why do advisors hesitate to make a move? Fear and outdated perceptions about transitions still influence decision-making, even though today’s transition experience is often much smoother than advisors expect. How should advisors compare competing platforms? Talk directly with affiliated advisors, ask for measurable evidence of results, and focus on how a platform responds to advisor feedback rather than marketing claims. How is AI changing advisor businesses? AI should enhance – not replace – the advisor relationship by creating operational efficiencies that allow advisors to spend more time delivering personalized advice. Shannon believes advisors should look beyond technology and economics and evaluate whether a platform acts like a true long-term business partner that helps them grow and build enterprise value. By providing integrated support – from technology and compliance to marketing and coaching – that allows advisors to spend more time with clients while maintaining control of their businesses. No. Shannon argues that success depends less on private equity itself and more on choosing partners who share the firm’s long-term vision and values. Fear and outdated perceptions about transitions still influence decision-making, even though today’s transition experience is often much smoother than advisors expect. Talk directly with affiliated advisors, ask for measurable evidence of results, and focus on how a platform responds to advisor feedback rather than marketing claims. AI should enhance – not replace – the advisor relationship by creating operational efficiencies that allow advisors to spend more time delivering personalized advice. Related Resources How to Evaluate a Firm Beyond the Obvious: A Framework for Advisors Why You Should Stay at Your Current Firm Shannon SpotswoodCEO Shannon Spotswood is a 25+ year industry veteran with a tremendous amount of experience across both retail and institutional finance and an outstanding reputation built on her passionate leadership and ongoing success in investment banking, hedge fund portfolio management, business development and retail wealth management. Joining RFG in 2015, Shannon recognized the opportunity to channel her entrepreneurial experience and passion for service into leading a mission to create an Advisor-focused RIA of the Future delivering a supported independence platform that empowers Financial Advisors to build the businesses they want to have, without compromise. Shannon’s career has been characterized by her determination to build something bigger than herself. Having fallen in love with finance at only age 14, she was focused on making an impact in a male-dominated industry. After graduating from college, Shannon spent 20 years in San Francisco working in institutional finance. She began her career in investment banking and eventually achieved her dream job as a Portfolio Manager of a long- short equity fund at Symphony Asset Management. The company was acquired by Nuveen in 2001. After a decade at that firm and now a mother of 3 young children, Shannon turned her entrepreneurial passion in a new direction with a drastic pivot to start a luxury children’s clothing brand, Busy Bees. Taking her years of experience in qualitative analysis of retail companies, Shannon and her business partner built the brand from the ground up, ushering its’ growth from a garage to “Gwyneth Paltrow’s Goop” over the course of a few years. Shannon and her family made the decision to move from the Bay Area to Birmingham, Alabama to be closer to family. And shortly after, the call to return to her first love, finance, grew to great to ignore. In 2015, Shannon joined RFG Advisory as President, leading RFG as the firm has grown from $1.8B to over $5B. In July of 2024, Shannon was named CEO of RFG Advisory and currently serves in that role. NOTE: The views and opinions expressed by the guests on this podcast are their own and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of Diamond Consultants. Neither Diamond Consultants nor the guests on this podcast are compensated in any way for their participation. View the transcript of this episode… Growth Without Compromise: Building Around the Advisor Experience A conversation with Jason Diamond and Shannon Spotswood, CEO of RFG Advisory. Jason Diamond: Welcome to the latest episode of our podcast series for Financial Advisors. Today’s episode is Growth Without Compromise: Building Around the Advisor Experience. It’s a conversation with Shannon Spotswood, the CEO of RFG Advisory. I’m Jason Diamond, and this is the Diamond Podcast for Financial Advisors. Mindy Diamond: At Diamond Consultants, we help elite advisors identify the right environment for their businesses to thrive, whether that’s at a wirehouse, boutique, or independent firm. With nearly three decades of experience, we’ve guided thousands of advisors and represented more than a quarter of a trillion dollars in assets transitioned. And each year, one in four advisors managing a billion dollars or more who change firms are our clients. Our process is education-driven and based on building relationships, starting as your strategic partner well before you’re even thinking of a move. To schedule a confidential conversation, call us at 908-879-1002. Wondering why advisors change firms and where they’re headed? Are transition deals going up or down? Those very questions and more inspired us to create our annual advisor transition report. It’s the award-winning data-driven resource designed for advisors that connects the dots between the motivations around movement and the firm’s appetite for top talent. Arm yourself with the knowledge you need to make smart decisions. Download your copy at diamond-consultants.com/transitionreport. Jason Diamond: The right partners make you better. The wrong ones can quietly hold you back. Most conversations about independence focus on platforms as providers of technology, service, or infrastructure. Shannon Spotswood sees them differently. She believes advisors should evaluate a platform the same way they’d evaluate any long-term business partner, by asking whether it will help them build the kind of firm they ultimately want to own. That’s exactly what we explore in this episode. Shannon is the CEO of RFG Advisory, a firm that has grown from a startup into one of the industry’s leading supportive independence platforms. Along the way, she’s developed a unique perspective on what advisors should be looking for beyond economics and technology, and why the right partner can accelerate growth, strengthen culture, and help create a business that’s built to last. It’s a conversation that goes well beyond advisor platforms. We explore why Shannon believes so strongly in growth without compromise, what private equity can look like when the partnership is aligned, why firms shouldn’t try to be everything to everyone, and how advisors can separate marketing promises from meaningful support. We also spend time on a topic that comes up in nearly every transition conversation my team has with advisors, fear. Shannon shares her perspective on why outdated assumptions about making a move continue to hold advisors back and why asking better questions and demanding evidence instead of promises can fundamentally change the way advisors evaluate every opportunity in front of them. Whether you’re considering independence, evaluating your current platform, or simply thinking about what comes next for your business, I think you’ll find Shannon’s perspective both practical and though-provoking, especially the sage advice in her words, “Don’t tell me, show me.” There’s a lot to take away from this conversation, so let’s get to it. Shannon, thanks so much for joining me. Thrilled to have you here. Shannon Spotswood: It’s excellent to be here. I’m really looking forward to it. Jason Diamond: Me too. Let’s dive right in. I want to start with your background. You spent 20 years in San Fran as an investment banker, then as a portfolio manager at Symphony Asset Management before even touching the world of wealth management. So what made you walk away from, we’ll call it the institutional world and enter the world of wealth management? Shannon Spotswood: It’s a little bit of a circuitous story, but I’m going to take us on the short route. I fell in love with Wall Street as a teenager, so I knew I wanted to work on Wall Street. My dream job was actually the time that I spent at Symphony Asset Management. I was a hedge fund manager for them for six years running a long/short equity fund. I then had three children in three and a half years. The firm was acquired by Nuveen Investments, and we grew very large, and I was on this really interesting trajectory within the institutional investment management world. And somewhat of the unexpected happened to me in 2010, we’d come through the financial crisis. I looked around the room, I had these three young children, and having loved finance since a very early age, I couldn’t crawl on an airplane anymore. I fell out of love with what was honestly my first love. And I made a pretty radical pivot. I left Symphony, the tallest building at the time in San Francisco, and I partnered with a woman, and we built a luxury children’s clothing company for the next three years. So about as radical of a move as you can make, a $30 billion firm, big team, a tremendous growth ahead of us to upside down boxes of infant cashmere in a garage that flooded when it rained. So I had my startup in a garage moment. And while I was running the children’s clothing company, my husband and I took a big leap of faith and decided to move from San Francisco to Birmingham, Alabama to get closer to family, to raise our kids in the South, and just manifest the life that we wanted. In the third year of running the kids’ clothing business, we checked every box of our initial business plan, and I turned to my business partner and I was like, “Now what? Should we raise capital? Should we open stores? Should we diversify manufacturing?” And we realized this beautiful little luxury brand that we had created was exactly what it needed to be. And so we restructured the company and I punched out of that. And I spent, really for the first time in my life, about five months in deep contemplation. What was the first hedge fund that I was a part of in San Francisco, my tour of duty through investment banking as an analyst associate and helping them start an M&A group. This incredible decade that I’d spent at Symphony, and then this wild out of left field moment of building a luxury children’s clothing brand. And it had such an epiphany, Jason. And it was this, that I was on the ground floor of all of those businesses. And my aha moment was, oh my gosh, I’m a builder. What I love more than anything is sitting at the intersection of talent and opportunity and what I think is truly one of life’s greatest gifts, and certainly I think the most fun way to live your professional life, which is building something. So I put my resume together and I titled… It wasn’t even really a job search. It was more, I was new to Birmingham. I wondered if there was anything I could be of service in being a part of building something. So I put that resume together and I titled it Seeking the Intangible. And I was looking for that opportunity of talent and building something bigger than myself. And it was through some networking with my across the street neighbor who went on to become a board member of RFG who thought all I did was sell his wife incredibly expensive clothing who networked me to Bobby White, who’s the founder of RFG. And in the first 10 minutes of my conversation with Bobby, and I’ll tell you, both of us went into that meeting thinking it was going to be a filler meeting. He was doing a favor for a friend, and I had seen a little bit of the wealth management industry after Nuveen had acquired Symphony and was like, “That’s not really my bag. My jam is more on the institutional side of things.” And 10 minutes into our very first meeting, we both canceled the rest of our day, and we spent the next two and a half hours in his office having a conversation that really started with what if. What if we took RFG, which had been founded in 2003, and at the time was an OSJ with LPL, what if we took that business and we tore it all the way down to the ground? And we rebuilt it from the ground floor up to be a platform that is designed, that is intentionally engineered, to serve independent advisors? What would it look like to be a client experience company first, a technology company second, and a corporate RIA third? And I’ll tell you, walking out of that meeting, I was like, “This is it. This is it. This is the intangible. This is an opportunity to really build something very special.” And that’s how I found myself sitting in this talking to you today. Jason Diamond: Wow. So there’s a lot to unpack there. Thank you for sharing. And you shared it with a degree of vulnerability that I personally, I have a two-year-old and a three-week-old as of this recording. So it resonates with me. I think it resonates with a lot of advisors, people in our, and honestly, probably most industries, the constant pull in multiple different directions. And I love what you called it, seeking the intangible. And it sounds like you didn’t go in with any preconceived notion about… Many of our guests, by the way, that is the case. They walk in saying, “I knew since I was two years old I wanted to be in wealth management. I wanted to help be a steward of client…” And I love that your circuitous route took you a different direction. I want to talk more about the firm, and we’ll dive in on some of these elements of your background also. But before we do, you mentioned a little bit of, at a high level, what RFG is. Give me a little more context, types of advisors you serve, types of clients you serve. And if you don’t mind, provide some stats around size as well. Shannon Spotswood: Absolutely. So we are on a mission to help independent advisors build their business without compromise by driving organic growth to create enterprise value. And I share that because in our mission statement is the passion that links us all together, which is helping independent advisors build what they want to envision for their clients, what they believe is the best representation of their vision and their values. So we are a platform, a full turnkey platform for independent advisors. We talk about our services as a flywheel. There’s a very intentional interdependency from technology to marketing to compliance to talent to investment management to coaching, operations, transition services, and capital solutions. All of it is knit together very thoughtfully in order to be able to deliver to the advisors on our promise to help them operationalize and professionalize their business, to serve their clients and to generate that organic growth, which is what translates into enterprise value. What is so cool about the RFG advisor community, and I think is really the thread that binds between our teams and our advisors team is this servant heart growth mindset that you find it in every nook and cranny of RFG and certainly within all of our advisor partners. So the advisor profile for us, we do tend to skew a little bit younger. Average age is 45 years old. Organic growth across all of our advisors is north of 10%. So we’re very focused and leaned in on growth. We do have advisors that are lifestyle. We talk about them as lifestyle scaling and enterprise, and they run all along that growth at growth spectrum, depending on what do they want to build in their lives, what is going to help them really realize their dreams? And we’ll talk about this a little bit and just the growth of the firm and what we’ve been building, but we are at $9 billion. So it’s been a big run in 2026, as I say, 10 years of pre-game warmup to be able to really talk about that level of growth. So just knocking on the door of $10 billion and truly, Jason, I can tell you, I feel like we’re just getting started. I feel like we are just at the beginning of the J-curve as advisors are really realizing that their most valuable asset is their time and the amount of enterprise value that they can create being independent. There’s a lot of different flavors of that. We’ve got some incredibly well-capitalized and very strong competitors, but the collective awareness around this bull market for advice that we’re sitting at the very beginning of is shining such a bright light on what does it mean to be independent? What does it mean to be really supported by a partner who’s all in to help them win? And that’s where we find ourselves. And by design, that’s where we find ourselves. Jason Diamond: Yeah, and it’s an exciting time. I completely agree. The space, the vertical you’re in, probably as much or more than any other pocket of the industry. You took the words out of my mouth, the J-curve. I completely agree with the story you’re telling. There’s one component of your background that I do want to ask about, which is many RIAs, platforms, and the like, the leadership team is intentionally ex-advisors in their own right. So I’m curious, do you think of it as a benefit or maybe to what degree is it not a benefit that you have never been an advisor and served clients? I do love the idea that you’re a business builder and you’re helping advisors to build a business. That’s not lost on me, but I’m curious specifically about never having been an advisor. Shannon Spotswood: I think it is so critical that we were advisor-founded. What we like to say is we’re advisor-founded and professionally-led. Bobby founded the firm in 2003. We partnered in 2015. Our third partner, Rick Wedell, who’s our chief investment officer, managing partner, joined in 2016. So the three of us really co-founded the version of RFG that is- Jason Diamond: The right version. Shannon Spotswood: … expressed in the market today. But you’re a hundred percent right to double click on this. And I think it is such an important area for reflection for advisors in terms of where are their greatest skills? Where does their passion lie? And what are they interested in building? That very first day that I met Bobby, his telling of the story is he looked at my resume the morning that we were meant to meet, and he is like, “Well, why would I hire her? She could do my job.” And he often talked about that where you get to this point as an advisor where the business is scaling and growing. And we certainly are seeing this in a lot of the larger teams that we’re talking to and the relationships that we’re beginning to build within the pipeline of these advisors who were attracted to the industry because they wanted to serve clients and find themselves as accidental CEOs, COOs, their chief cook and bottle washer to advisor to all of these C-suite titles. And it’s not amplifying their natural skillset and it’s not aligned with what is actually their passion for the business. So I give a tremendous amount of credit to Bobby for recognizing more than 10 years ago really what it would take and how he could align team around him and build partnerships around him to be able to maximize the impact that we can have for advisors. So that north star of keeping advisors front and center is truly our, it is woven into our DNA and it is our north star. So we are a client experience company by design. We talk about it all the time, whether it’s how we’re building our team, how we’re thinking about investing in technology, how we’re soliciting feedback for advisors. I always say one of our greatest strengths as an organization is we’re active listeners and then we actually execute on it. Our best ideas come from our advisors, but you’ve got to have that posture as a firm that everything you do is orienting around how do we help advisors operationalize, professionalize, drive organic growth, and create enterprise value? And you can’t do it sometimes. You’re either all in, chips all in, only winning when your advisors win, and only having that lens of will this benefit the advisor and their team or not. It’s not something that you can just dip your toe in and out of. And I think RFG, having that foundation from which to always build is absolutely critical. Jason Diamond: Can I try and paraphrase or synthesize, and you tell me if I get this right? The pitch is something to the effect of, “We are really good at what we do. Let us take all the BS off of your plate so that you can go out and be an advisor. Service your client and prospect.” Do you find that story is resonating more over time? I mean, you’ve been with the firm now long enough to see this kind of cycle of movement towards independence. How has that story evolved over time? Do you find it easier to tell? Shannon Spotswood: Oh my gosh, without question. And I would even put a shorter term window on it. I would say in the last 12 to 15 months- Jason Diamond: Oh wow. Shannon Spotswood: … there has been a collective awakening by advisors, and I think there’s a lot of contributing factors to that. One is obviously as we are all aware, the majority of the industry is now private equity backed. There has been a real focus on the aggregator model, transitioning advisors into a W-2 model. And as that has played out and that financial engineering has translated into some incredible valuations and returns, there has also been simultaneously advisors picking their head up and like, wait a minute, I wanted to get independent so I could serve my clients in a way that I felt best represented my vision and my values. And I’m finding myself increasingly in a captive environment. All the while the technology is getting better, the valuations are getting larger, the ability to control both your branding and what that means for your family legacy is increasing. So over the course of the last 15 to 18 months, that story has just, while it’s been there for a long time, the independent movement was obviously sparked more than, gosh, now 16, 20 years ago in earnest. Now it’s just the passion and the knowledge that advisors are showing up to conversations in recognizing I want more. I want to spend my time where I want to spend it. I want to serve more families. I want to be well-positioned for generational wealth transition. I want to own the enterprise value. I want to build my team and I want the best tech. And that to me is exactly why we’re at the beginning of this J-curve. Jason Diamond: Yeah, I think you nailed it. And I agree with you that this notion of independence is not a destination in and of… It’s too broad of a term I think to use. And there are plenty of advisors who either started at one version of independence and need something different now, or to your point, thought they were going independent only to realize perhaps there’s elements of the business that aren’t as independent as they realized. And that’s where I think a firm like RFG to me, it’s not an accident that your firm fills this niche. This was advisor demand driven. Advisors said explicitly and implicitly, “We want to be independent. We want to own our equity. We want to have control over the things we like, but we want a support partner that helps us with all the back office, the middle office, investment management, the flywheel,” as you call it. Shannon Spotswood: That’s right. Jason Diamond: One other element of your journey to this point that I want to ask about, the succession journey or the journey to CEO, and I’m only asking because it’s somewhat recent, I think it was 2024, so we’re about two years in CEO. For the eight years prior to that, you were president. Shannon Spotswood: Yes. Jason Diamond: And this dynamic is near and dear for a lot of advisors. This idea you’re the heir apparent, but the date hasn’t happened until it happened. Was that a smooth transition date or did you find yourself, and I hope you can be honest about it, and if not, I understand, but I think this is something that a lot of advisors in their own businesses struggle with. So as somebody who’s gone through a major succession journey in the last two years, I’m curious what your thoughts are. Shannon Spotswood: The timing coincided with us bringing on a growth capital partner. So we closed on that partnership with Long Ridge in the fall of 2023, and we really set our sights on how do we bring this capital into the business and invest in our team, invest in our technology, invest in this desire to help independent advisors build their business. And Long Ridge really shares that long-term strategic belief that independence and the corporate RIA model is the ultimate winning model. So we have a lot of room to run there. So entering into that growth partnership with Long Ridge really provided a natural opportunity for that succession conversation to take place and to be able to take the company to the next leg. So we’ve tripled the size of the company over the course of the last two and a half years. Jason Diamond: Good for you. Shannon Spotswood: And as I said, I feel like we’re just getting started. I always joke we’ve had the longest pre-game warmup in history. In a lot of ways that’s by design. For me, the way that I can sleep at night is knowing that we are waking up as a team in this unified front to walk the walk for our advisors. It is incredibly important to us to honor the promise that we’ve made, whether it’s on tech or talent or transition services or marketing growth. So being able to lean in and deliver that, it takes a long time to build that institutional know-how and to be uncompromising in consistently making hard decisions, whether it’s around talent or the investments that you’re making or how you’re running and growing and building the firm. And so Bobby reached and Long Ridge and all of us reached this point where it was just a very natural way. And I think it was such a gift that I had such a long warmup, if you will, in the bullpen, running the day-to-day of the business as president, being so close to sweating the details of how we built the foundation, how we run the firm. And then obviously Ed Swenson joined us as president in last fall in October of 2025, having joined our board when we partnered with Long Ridge. So he joined our board in September of ’23, and he and I set up a call every other week. So we just became this incredibly trusted confidant of mine as we made a lot of strategic investments and key strategic decisions in that first 15 to 18 months of our partnership with Long Ridge. So to be able to build and attract the caliber of talent that we have to RFG, I mean, I’m totally biased and talking my own book, but I think we have the best leadership team. Doug Nelson joined us from Long Ridge as our CFO in November of last year, just bringing that rigor, particularly around capital strategies into our C-suite. So it was the right time to make that transition. And what I would say for founder advisor-led firms, it’s all about what are your growth ambitions? It’s what are your growth ambitions? Without question, when I joined and Bobby and Rick and I set upon this journey to tear the entire company down and build this robust tech stack and be at the forefront as an innovator in that space, that was experience that I had from my 20 years in San Francisco. And Rick had this incredible institutional pedigree having spent 12 years at Bain Capital plus two years at Stanford Business School, complimenting this authenticity that Bobby brought as an advisor, bringing that together. So recognizing as a founder advisor, if you have growth ambitions to 10X your business, it’s going to require that you bring high caliber talent to the table and allow for that room both from an equity participation perspective, but also just from what does the business need as it continues to scale up? Jason Diamond: That’s exactly right. And part of this gets back to private equity sometimes gets a bad rep in our space, but the reality is capital from private equity enables a lot of what you’re talking about. And I give you a lot of credit. I mean, you make the half joke about the longest pregame warmup ever, but I think of it as you learned on your own dime and you built all the kinks and ironed out all the kinks prior to having this critical mass of advisors on your platform. And we’ve seen certainly plenty of firms go that route too. So I give you credit for that. I think because we’re on the topic, let’s talk about it, private equity. Positive experience, negative experience, neutral, neither good nor bad. Just give me your… I don’t want to make the episode about the perils- Shannon Spotswood: Right. Jason Diamond: … and benefits of private equity capital, but just curious what your experience has been. Shannon Spotswood: I think this is one of those life lessons. Choose your partners wisely and great things can happen, whether it’s in your marriage or your friendships- Jason Diamond: Spouse. Yep. Shannon Spotswood: … or your business partners. And Long Ridge found us very serendipitously. I mean, we were probably two years from even contemplating bringing in a growth capital partner. They were introduced to us by a former board member and they were in our offices in January of 2023. And the most important things for us were twofold. Number one, they shared our vision and belief that the corporate RIA independent is the winning model for the industry and for advisors and clients. And number two, who they are as people is very much who we are as people. They’re builders. Jason Diamond: Culturally. Shannon Spotswood: They have this servant heart growth mindset that they share with us. So I feel incredibly blessed to say they’re amazing partners. And what’s interesting, and I’ll share this very openly, they’re the majority owners of RFG. We were very early in that time of bringing them on. They have always honored the promise that they made to us, which is we run the business. They are a strategic partner. They’re a great thought partner. They are the capital provider, but there has been multiple examples where we have made business decisions where there’s been some heat in the kitchen, in the boardroom, and we’ve felt very strongly about it. So I just couldn’t say enough great things about them. And one thing that I will just share, and I say this because they’ve shared this with me, I have had this incredible personal journey of growth bringing such a deep bench in Long Ridge into the firm. And that has been certainly challenging at times. Do hard things, get comfortable being uncomfortable. It’s the ultimate definition. But I really think that is something that never gets talked about is what it means in upskilling the caliber of your talent, yourself, how you have to grow and evolve as an individual has been really, I won’t say it’s been easy, but I look back on what I’ve learned over these two years and just feel prepared as a leadership team, how we operate as a team, what is expected of us to be able to deliver and execute for our advisors in this next leg of growth. Jason Diamond: I think your marriage analogy is the perfect one, and I’m going to use it. And honestly, in a lot of ways. First of all, marriage is hard, good or bad. It’s hard. Second of all, it’s the ultimate… The institution of marriage is not good or bad. Private equity capital is not good or bad, but your answer is the right one. Pick your partner very wisely. My favorite part of your answer, because it’s the most original, was around a good capital backer, a good partner, whatever you want to call it, pushes you to be better. And I think that you’re surrounding yourself with, by definition, some of the smartest people in the industry, and that can’t be a bad thing. And the proof is in the pudding. The growth trajectory you’ve seen, it’s certainly no accident. I think part of it is tied to your incredible stewardship. You don’t have to answer that. You don’t have to be humble, but I’ll attribute it to you. That brings me to my next question. Shannon Spotswood: I do have to say really quickly. Jason Diamond: Please do. Shannon Spotswood: I will be celebrating my 27th wedding anniversary in October. So yeah, pick your partners. Jason Diamond: Congrats. And I feel equally blessed, I assume as you do. I have a great partner, I’ll say. I don’t know if she’s listening right now, but she’s a great spouse. What I was going to say though, good segue, I think there’s been more in recent years, but not a ton certainly of female C-suite wealth management executives. How do you feel about your role? Do you feel an increased burden? Is it an honor to you? Is it something that you don’t think much about at all? I’m curious what your thoughts are. Shannon Spotswood: I feel immense gratitude. I mean, just in general, leading RFG and locking arms with our team and our advisors is, I mean, a gift of a lifetime. I was incredibly fortunate to not just have mentors during my 20 years in San Francisco, but to have true sponsors. Whether it was the first hedge fund I worked at, I took that job because it was a female portfolio manager and at the time one of the only in the country. And she really opened up her heart to me and poured into me. And then 10 years at Symphony, the founding partners of Symphony, they dropped me into the deep end of the pool and gave me a lot of rope to make a lot of mistakes and continued to invest. So I have this foundation from which to build and to lead and to be ready for this role. I couldn’t do any of this without my partners. Rick and I have been partners for more than 10 years. It really does take a village in the same way that it takes a village to raise your family. It takes a village to find the courage and the strength to lead in a way that really honors the gravity of the mission. But I’ll tell you this. One, I knew I wanted to work on Wall Street from a very young age, so I chose this. I knew what I was getting into, that it was a male-dominated industry. I have made particularly, this is one of the unique facets of the wealth management business, we have phenomenal both male and female talent, and I have made the strongest female relationships on this side of the business as compared to the institutional side of the business. So I think there is a richness to our side of the industry that doesn’t get enough air cover. There are just phenomenal leaders, and I think increasingly so, we’re seeing more women stay in the game and raise into positions within the C-suite and leading these firms. I will tell you one thing in 2019, and I really give a lot of credit to Bobby for this in coaching me, is I was raised by wolves on Wall Street without question. I sat on a trade desk, I was completely comfortable with compartmentalizing emotion, and I made it a mission to develop intentionally my emotional intelligence. And that truly unlocked everything for me, and I think plays such a huge part of who I want to be and who I challenge myself to be as a leader. And so it’s funny when I get the question asked of me about being a female CEO, because I think that’s what people feel must be like came very intuitively to me, but I had to learn it. I had 20 plus years of being able to run with boys and I needed to develop that skill. And it is a skill that I challenge myself on a daily to continue to lean into. And I think it is increasingly important both for men and women who aspire to leadership to hone the strategic and execution alongside that emotional intelligence. Jason Diamond: Great answer. And I think you know I admire a lot about you, but it’s certainly one of the things I admire most about you is over the last couple years in particular you’ve been a real beacon of positivity, of empowerment in that regard. You’re active on socials, you’re active at industry events, you’re always willing to talk to people. And honestly, that to me is the answer. A lot of people complain about this as a problem, and I want to just take a second to applaud you because I think you and your firm actually do something to at least try and actively solve some of this. And also you mentioned it earlier, but same thing with some of the next gen dynamics. You skew much younger than the average firm on the industry. And I think that too is to your credit around, okay, we’ve identified that we have a major succession problem in our industry. What are we doing to solve that? Shannon Spotswood: Absolutely. Jason Diamond: Let’s talk about growth a little bit. I agree with your thesis. This space you occupy, no better time to be in it. We’re at the perfect spot on the J-curve. Unfortunately, we are not the only two people to think that. There are also, I think, some other firms. This space has become crowded. What do you think about that? Just the fact that there’s more competition than ever. I mean, my view of it is there are enough quality advisors to go around, but curious what you think. Shannon Spotswood: Anytime I find myself wading into the waters of fear and scarcity around this topic, I’m reminded that 67% of the assets still remain within the wirehouse and IBD space. We got lots of room to run. I believe in a mindset of abundance. The data will tell us that the demand for advice is increasing by 30% over the next decade while the number of advisors is decreasing by 1%. So we’ve got, find me another industry where you see a graph that looks like that. On top of that, next gen, which I think this is so fascinating, next gen actually wants more advice when compared to the baby boomers. So baby boomers created our industry, and here we are sitting on $87 trillion worth of generational wealth that’s going to begin to transition. That doesn’t even include all of the wealth that will be monetized through real estate and family-owned businesses. It is a tsunami. And what is, I think, really interesting is that next gen recognizes the value of their time. I’m sure if I had a conversation, Jason, with you and my husband about how intentional you want to be in terms of showing up for your children and the equal nature of parenting, that alone is changing the way the next gen thinks about both their professions as well as their family life, which means you by default have to hire professionals to do the things that you don’t want to spend the time doing. Jason Diamond: Really good point. Shannon Spotswood: So we have this incredible convergence that’s happening right now, and it’s coming at a time that technology is finally going to allow us to serve more families more intentionally along that wealth spectrum. So it is like, bring it on. There is more than enough to go around. We are in an era of abundance. And what I worry the most about, and this, it’s like climb up on the soapbox and let’s roll, about independence because I see and have so many conversations with advisors where they have been willing to accept such a compromised service experience that they would never allow to be delivered to their clients. So advisors are delivering this 24-hour concierge, high-touch, deeply thoughtful experience, estate planning, tax planning, financial planning, multi-generational conversations. They’re in it. They’re in the trench. And then they turn around and their service partner is so subpar. They’re compromising their growth. They’re burying them in compliance and ops and clicks and swivel chair and tech that doesn’t work. So we’re at the very beginning of this bull run for advice. And I think advisors who recognize, I want to serve more families, I want more control over my time, I want to be able to build enterprise value on my personal balance sheet, have room to do it. So I welcome the competition. I think the best way to talk about it is iron sharpens iron. I learn so much from our peers and like, ah, they did this or they did that. How do we think more disruptively, more innovatively? How do we do it differently? So I think there’s a lot of room for all of us. You’re going to be busy, my friend. You’re already sitting there advising the lion’s share of the big deals, and I think you guys are just getting started as well. Jason Diamond: Yeah, it certainly feels like a bull market for advice and also I think a bull market for some of the… You allude to an interesting paradox, which is some of the biggest and most sophisticated advisors in the industry have really high-touch impressive service models, but they don’t seem to demand the same in return. I have some thoughts as to why. I think one could just be Kool-Aid drinking, like you don’t know any better and you’ve been there for so long. There’s just so much friction associated with moving a business and fear associated that it’s unless things get really dire or unless I find something that’s better enough or meaningfully better enough, I can gut it out. But the third one that comes to mind is these firms we’re talking about have unequivocally, they do a lot of good, a lot of bad, but unequivocally one of the things they do really well is brand. Shannon Spotswood: Yeah. Jason Diamond: How do you reconcile that question with a firm that obviously doesn’t have a brand that the average American consumer would know? Shannon Spotswood: We take a posture on this that is rooted in an Accenture study that was conducted several years ago, but I think still remains so true today, is that advisors think that the value proposition that their clients are looking for, either it’s that big monobrand that’s advertising at the Super Bowl or the alpha they’re ever able to generate or the portfolio investments. But the clients tell us that what they’re looking for in an advisor is, do you get me? Do you share my values? And do I want to spend time with you outside the office? And that is basically distilled down the way we talk about it is people connect with people. So now more than ever, particularly if you take a big step back and you think about the influencer economy and how brands, big brands, Nike or big consumer brands have really leaned into niche branding. How do I get my brand into the hands of someone who’s very passionate about it? So advisors who develop their own brand, who have a presence on social, who have a presence in AEO and SEO, who are leaning in and expressing not only their client experience, but their vision and their values through their brand, I actually think as this generational wealth unfolds, that authenticity carries so much more weight than is my name on a football stadium. So it is those three factors. It’s just I’m comfortable. I don’t want ripple. It is friction and fear for sure. And then it’s like that branding is up for grabs because we certainly see one of the most fun parts of advisors joining RFG, this is a big part of what we do is helping them design and develop or reimagine their brand name, their logo, all the rest of it. Once that creative energy is unlocked and you get to tell your story, your my why, that connective tissue is so powerful with the clients and with the growth that comes from that because I mean, I truly believe people connect with people. They’re looking for that. And I think more so now than ever with AI. Jason Diamond: You just took the words out of my mouth. Do you think AI perpetuates that? Shannon Spotswood: I think people are craving that. And this is why advisors who are powered by AI without question are going to win. Advisors are not going to be disrupted by AI unless they haven’t made the move to get themselves in a position to be able to leverage the technology, the brand, the talent, the maximizing of their time. But especially with something as important and as personal as money, as you walk through life, I mean, you are at the very beginning. I’m sending, I’ll have all three kids in college. But as you make these critical decisions in your life, whether it’s getting married or starting a business or changing jobs or buying your first house, buying your vacation house, all of these things, you can go right or you can go wrong. And having a trusted partner who really understands you, I actually think that we’re going to see the fees paid for advisors increasing as there is a greater premium placed on, I want deeply personal relationships that are tailor-made for me. Jason Diamond: But I assume the flip side of that is you have to do more. You as a firm and you as an advisor have to do more, and you can’t just raise fees with the same service model. So I think what is the corollary of that? What are some of the ancillary growth areas that you do beyond the financial planning and asset management that says, “We’re worth that money you’re going to pay us”? Shannon Spotswood: It is, and I love the work that wealth.com is doing here. I mean, the estate planning and tax planning, making that more accessible along that continuum of wealth spectrum, the blurring of the lines between ultra high net worth and high net worth, and then mass affluent is so exciting. Better, more robust planning is good for our industry overall. Obviously there’s a huge amount of demand on the tax side of things, particularly the 1040. It’s easy to find a CPA to do the cool complex stuff. It’s increasingly more challenging for advisors. That’s an area that I know a lot of firms have leaned into. We’re certainly doing a lot of work. But so much of this, Jason, is showing up at the right time for clients with the resources. It’s a really interesting conversation about, yes, you have to do more for your clients, but you don’t have to do more for all your clients at exactly the same time. Jason Diamond: That’s well said. The flip side of that is as an advisor, because ultimately the advisors are the ones making this decision. There are a lot of firms, and not even just firms that you would be competitors with, because the reality is you and I understand the industry landscape and where various firms fit in. For many advisors, it’s a long list of various firm names that they’ve heard. So what are some things that you think advisors should be asking a firm like you or a business development person at your firm to suss this out? How does an advisor go about understanding if a platform is empty or is really going to be able to deliver in all these areas? Shannon Spotswood: Remember back in the day when the Wall Street Journal used to run have a monkey throw a dart and see if you can beat the pros on stock picking? I love to do that with regards to our advisors. We always tell our prospects, “Throw a dart at any advisor that’s affiliated with RFG and call them. Certainly we can provide a list of advisors who we think you’re going to most align with in terms of what your growth ambitions are or the way you want to run your business or who you are, life stage, all the rest of it.” But I do think that getting that unfiltered experience, the good, the bad, the ugly. We always are like, “Are we perfect? Absolutely not. Do we though immediately want the feedback so that we can iterate to excellence to get better? Absolutely. Get that firsthand testimony.” So that’s number one. Number two is don’t tell me, show me. There are so many, and it always pulls at my heart because as much as I love to win business and transition advisors, and I think that we’re working certainly at RFG on some really interesting technology that is anchored around removing that friction and fear by speeding up the time that you can make that transition in. And the tech is finally there to allow for this. So I think we’re going to be able to take variable number two and at least make that box a little bit smaller. But if I’m sitting as an advisor, I would want to see the evidence. Show me how you’ve solved the problems that advisors have brought to you. How have you refined your tech stack? How have you invested in your team? How have you made the decisions where the ROI can be measurable and tangible? And I think too often I’m surprised that advisors get, it’s almost as if they get overwhelmed by the amount of information that they’re taking in trying to compare all these different firms. If I’m ever asked, I’m like, please work with a third-party recruiter. You need someone not only to act as an interpreter, but you need someone to help really keep your top three priorities at the front of your decision-making matrix, because it really is apples to oranges to orangutans and you get decision fatigue. And then advisors end up making this decision that is anchored in like, well, this is the highest payout, and I’m willing to take all of these sacrifices and paper cuts for this highest payout. And that is just such a travesty. So it’s like, know what you want. What are your top three problems that you’re trying to solve? Talk to advisors that you get to pick just so you can do some secret shopping, and then demand evidence of how the firm, the platform has responded to feedback and gotten better as a result because that will tell you, are they really going to walk the walk or are they just going to talk the talk? Jason Diamond: I’m super grateful that you gave specifics there because it’s an easy question to dodge and talk around. So I completely agree. Your first answer, actually all three of those points you just made, but certainly doing name-blind calls, and I say name-blind because advisors worry about confidentiality. I think that’s one of the best and most underrated tools to learn about a firm is advisors now have so many colleagues. There’s been this diaspora of advisors where advisors know advisors everywhere. And that’s a benefit if you wanted to go and just network and have conversations with other advisors on your own. But if you’re worried about confidentiality, there’s certainly the mechanisms, and we do this all the time for advisors to set up name-blind calls. You dial into a conference line, it’s John Smith, and you pick an advisor’s brain and say, “Hey, you moved your book from LPL to RFG, and tell me what that experience was like and what were the positives? Give me all the negatives.” To your point, you want advisors to ask those questions in advance. It’s better to ask those questions than to end up in the wrong marriage with the advisor. Shannon Spotswood: Absolutely. And the other thing is what an easy answer to BS around is tell me who’s a good fit for your firm. And it’s like, “Everyone’s welcome here.” Jason Diamond: Everybody. Yeah. Shannon Spotswood: It’s just not true. RFG is not a good fit for an advisor who is not open to using technology, who is not interested in outsourcing investment management, who doesn’t want to have a conversation about how are you spending your time and do you want to create enterprise value? Do you want to grow? So it really is important to have that vulnerability and that honesty and the answer to that question. Jason Diamond: I love it. We have time for one more. I can’t believe it’s been almost an hour. Shannon Spotswood: I know, it flies by. Jason Diamond: We speak with plenty of advisors who aren’t considering a move, but I’m interested. I think you have a really nice lens into the industry. What is one thing you wish advisors knew? You have a megaphone to just talk to advisors who maybe are considering change, but maybe aren’t. What’s the questions they should be thinking about? What keeps you up at night? Just what would be your public service announcement? Shannon Spotswood: I’m going to focus on the friction and fear because that’s the number one barrier to making a move is PTSD, either first person PTSD or the collective negative experience that the industry has had. It took me 90 days to transition. I got sued by my former firm. I lost all these clients. I didn’t have income. The wise tales of fear are very widely trafficked and widespread. And what I would say to an advisor is everything you want is on the other side of fear. And I look at all of this data that suggests exactly the opposite, which is you have the relationship with the client. You have the trust with the client. You are the one who they call on Sunday night when they need a shoulder to cry on or sage advice for making a decision. Just believe it with the core of your being because what we see is 99% of assets transition, whether it’s a restrictive transition or you’re taking full data, that the majority of assets are transitioning within 30 days, that this is still a free country, and you can make a move while honoring your contract around non-solicitation, non-competes, and non-associations. So it is like this fear of holding advisors back is preventing them from realizing and monetizing this enterprise value, but equally as importantly, loving their business. Have fun. This should be fun. We spend the majority of our life at work. And so being able to surround yourself with people who win when you win, with a team who’s aligned and isn’t just drudgery with all their operations compliance headaches that they’re dealing with. Your team deserves to be happy. You deserve to be happy. And that fear factor is holding so many advisors back. So that’s my advice is that it just doesn’t have to play out that way. And I think not just at RFG, collectively where we are as an independent industry with technology, with the way that AI is changing and our ability to harness data and business intelligence, getting to that point of next best action, how am I spending my time, how am I realizing, what is the blueprint for realizing my growth goals is more tangible now than ever. That’s immediately where I go. Jason Diamond: I’ve never been an advisor. I’ve never had a book of business, so I don’t want to minimize the fear, but I will say this. If we speak to advisors, let’s say a year post-transition, by far the number one thing we hear from them is, “I wish I did this sooner.” Shannon Spotswood: Wish I did it sooner. Jason Diamond: And that to me is the most telling data point there is to your point about fear and getting over it. Shannon Spotswood: So I do this exercise all the time with our team as we’re onboarding advisors is I want you to go home and look at your spouse and tell them, “I’m going to leave my job. I have no certainty that everything is going to work out. We might not receive any kind of compensation. Are you cool with that?” Walk that emotional journey. And while there’s plenty obviously that we can do with Capital Solutions to ease the financial fear associated with it, I still think at the baseline, it’s a great exercise to keep everyone very humble. You are asking an advisor to take their life’s work. And someone was sharing this analogy with me the other day and I was like, “Oh my gosh, that’s so good,” which is imagine moving houses. It’s such a hassle packing up moving one house. Now imagine moving 400 households or 1,200 households. It’s a lot, but I always hear the same thing, “I wish I’d done it sooner.” Jason Diamond: Thank you for sharing. You had some really sage wisdom that you shared with our audience. I can’t wait to see the next chapter, the continuation of the J-curve. This has been a fantastic episode, Shannon. Thank you. Shannon Spotswood: I love being with you, Jason. Thank you so much. We appreciate it. Mindy Diamond: As a financial advisor, you hold yourself to the highest standards of integrity, honesty, and credibility. You are successful because you take your professional responsibilities seriously and are dedicated to your clients. But are you living your best business life? Are your goals aligned with your firms or could a better option exist? Should I Stay or Should I Go? is a book written with you in mind. It’s a self-guided journey that walks you through the key steps that we take with our advisor clients. This strategic thought process and roadmap to professional self-discovery is designed to help you ask the right questions and think critically and objectively, whether you’re considering change or not. Learn how to get your copy at diamond-consultants.com/thebook. Growth Without Compromise: Building Around the Advisor Experience A conversation with Jason Diamond and Shannon Spotswood, CEO of RFG Advisory. Jason Diamond: Welcome to the latest episode of our podcast series for Financial Advisors. Today’s episode is Growth Without Compromise: Building Around the Advisor Experience. It’s a conversation with Shannon Spotswood, the CEO of RFG Advisory. I’m Jason Diamond, and this is the Diamond Podcast for Financial Advisors. Mindy Diamond: At Diamond Consultants, we help elite advisors identify the right environment for their businesses to thrive, whether that’s at a wirehouse, boutique, or independent firm. With nearly three decades of experience, we’ve guided thousands of advisors and represented more than a quarter of a trillion dollars in assets transitioned. And each year, one in four advisors managing a billion dollars or more who change firms are our clients. Our process is education-driven and based on building relationships, starting as your strategic partner well before you’re even thinking of a move. To schedule a confidential conversation, call us at 908-879-1002. Wondering why advisors change firms and where they’re headed? Are transition deals going up or down? Those very questions and more inspired us to create our annual advisor transition report. It’s the award-winning data-driven resource designed for advisors that connects the dots between the motivations around movement and the firm’s appetite for top talent. Arm yourself with the knowledge you need to make smart decisions. Download your copy at diamond-consultants.com/transitionreport. Jason Diamond: The right partners make you better. The wrong ones can quietly hold you back. Most conversations about independence focus on platforms as providers of technology, service, or infrastructure. Shannon Spotswood sees them differently. She believes advisors should evaluate a platform the same way they’d evaluate any long-term business partner, by asking whether it will help them build the kind of firm they ultimately want to own. That’s exactly what we explore in this episode. Shannon is the CEO of RFG Advisory, a firm that has grown from a startup into one of the industry’s leading supportive independence platforms. Along the way, she’s developed a unique perspective on what advisors should be looking for beyond economics and technology, and why the right partner can accelerate growth, strengthen culture, and help create a business that’s built to last. It’s a conversation that goes well beyond advisor platforms. We explore why Shannon believes so strongly in growth without compromise, what private equity can look like when the partnership is aligned, why firms shouldn’t try to be everything to everyone, and how advisors can separate marketing promises from meaningful support. We also spend time on a topic that comes up in nearly every transition conversation my team has with advisors, fear. Shannon shares her perspective on why outdated assumptions about making a move continue to hold advisors back and why asking better questions and demanding evidence instead of promises can fundamentally change the way advisors evaluate every opportunity in front of them. Whether you’re considering independence, evaluating your current platform, or simply thinking about what comes next for your business, I think you’ll find Shannon’s perspective both practical and though-provoking, especially the sage advice in her words, “Don’t tell me, show me.” There’s a lot to take away from this conversation, so let’s get to it. Shannon, thanks so much for joining me. Thrilled to have you here. Shannon Spotswood: It’s excellent to be here. I’m really looking forward to it. Jason Diamond: Me too. Let’s dive right in. I want to start with your background. You spent 20 years in San Fran as an investment banker, then as a portfolio manager at Symphony Asset Management before even touching the world of wealth management. So what made you walk away from, we’ll call it the institutional world and enter the world of wealth management? Shannon Spotswood: It’s a little bit of a circuitous story, but I’m going to take us on the short route. I fell in love with Wall Street as a teenager, so I knew I wanted to work on Wall Street. My dream job was actually the time that I spent at Symphony Asset Management. I was a hedge fund manager for them for six years running a long/short equity fund. I then had three children in three and a half years. The firm was acquired by Nuveen Investments, and we grew very large, and I was on this really interesting trajectory within the institutional investment management world. And somewhat of the unexpected happened to me in 2010, we’d come through the financial crisis. I looked around the room, I had these three young children, and having loved finance since a very early age, I couldn’t crawl on an airplane anymore. I fell out of love with what was honestly my first love. And I made a pretty radical pivot. I left Symphony, the tallest building at the time in San Francisco, and I partnered with a woman, and we built a luxury children’s clothing company for the next three years. So about as radical of a move as you can make, a $30 billion firm, big team, a tremendous growth ahead of us to upside down boxes of infant cashmere in a garage that flooded when it rained. So I had my startup in a garage moment. And while I was running the children’s clothing company, my husband and I took a big leap of faith and decided to move from San Francisco to Birmingham, Alabama to get closer to family, to raise our kids in the South, and just manifest the life that we wanted. In the third year of running the kids’ clothing business, we checked every box of our initial business plan, and I turned to my business partner and I was like, “Now what? Should we raise capital? Should we open stores? Should we diversify manufacturing?” And we realized this beautiful little luxury brand that we had created was exactly what it needed to be. And so we restructured the company and I punched out of that. And I spent, really for the first time in my life, about five months in deep contemplation. What was the first hedge fund that I was a part of in San Francisco, my tour of duty through investment banking as an analyst associate and helping them start an M&A group. This incredible decade that I’d spent at Symphony, and then this wild out of left field moment of building a luxury children’s clothing brand. And it had such an epiphany, Jason. And it was this, that I was on the ground floor of all of those businesses. And my aha moment was, oh my gosh, I’m a builder. What I love more than anything is sitting at the intersection of talent and opportunity and what I think is truly one of life’s greatest gifts, and certainly I think the most fun way to live your professional life, which is building something. So I put my resume together and I titled… It wasn’t even really a job search. It was more, I was new to Birmingham. I wondered if there was anything I could be of service in being a part of building something. So I put that resume together and I titled it Seeking the Intangible. And I was looking for that opportunity of talent and building something bigger than myself. And it was through some networking with my across the street neighbor who went on to become a board member of RFG who thought all I did was sell his wife incredibly expensive clothing who networked me to Bobby White, who’s the founder of RFG. And in the first 10 minutes of my conversation with Bobby, and I’ll tell you, both of us went into that meeting thinking it was going to be a filler meeting. He was doing a favor for a friend, and I had seen a little bit of the wealth management industry after Nuveen had acquired Symphony and was like, “That’s not really my bag. My jam is more on the institutional side of things.” And 10 minutes into our very first meeting, we both canceled the rest of our day, and we spent the next two and a half hours in his office having a conversation that really started with what if. What if we took RFG, which had been founded in 2003, and at the time was an OSJ with LPL, what if we took that business and we tore it all the way down to the ground? And we rebuilt it from the ground floor up to be a platform that is designed, that is intentionally engineered, to serve independent advisors? What would it look like to be a client experience company first, a technology company second, and a corporate RIA third? And I’ll tell you, walking out of that meeting, I was like, “This is it. This is it. This is the intangible. This is an opportunity to really build something very special.” And that’s how I found myself sitting in this talking to you today. Jason Diamond: Wow. So there’s a lot to unpack there. Thank you for sharing. And you shared it with a degree of vulnerability that I personally, I have a two-year-old and a three-week-old as of this recording. So it resonates with me. I think it resonates with a lot of advisors, people in our, and honestly, probably most industries, the constant pull in multiple different directions. And I love what you called it, seeking the intangible. And it sounds like you didn’t go in with any preconceived notion about… Many of our guests, by the way, that is the case. They walk in saying, “I knew since I was two years old I wanted to be in wealth management. I wanted to help be a steward of client…” And I love that your circuitous route took you a different direction. I want to talk more about the firm, and we’ll dive in on some of these elements of your background also. But before we do, you mentioned a little bit of, at a high level, what RFG is. Give me a little more context, types of advisors you serve, types of clients you serve. And if you don’t mind, provide some stats around size as well. Shannon Spotswood: Absolutely. So we are on a mission to help independent advisors build their business without compromise by driving organic growth to create enterprise value. And I share that because in our mission statement is the passion that links us all together, which is helping independent advisors build what they want to envision for their clients, what they believe is the best representation of their vision and their values. So we are a platform, a full turnkey platform for independent advisors. We talk about our services as a flywheel. There’s a very intentional interdependency from technology to marketing to compliance to talent to investment management to coaching, operations, transition services, and capital solutions. All of it is knit together very thoughtfully in order to be able to deliver to the advisors on our promise to help them operationalize and professionalize their business, to serve their clients and to generate that organic growth, which is what translates into enterprise value. What is so cool about the RFG advisor community, and I think is really the thread that binds between our teams and our advisors team is this servant heart growth mindset that you find it in every nook and cranny of RFG and certainly within all of our advisor partners. So the advisor profile for us, we do tend to skew a little bit younger. Average age is 45 years old. Organic growth across all of our advisors is north of 10%. So we’re very focused and leaned in on growth. We do have advisors that are lifestyle. We talk about them as lifestyle scaling and enterprise, and they run all along that growth at growth spectrum, depending on what do they want to build in their lives, what is going to help them really realize their dreams? And we’ll talk about this a little bit and just the growth of the firm and what we’ve been building, but we are at $9 billion. So it’s been a big run in 2026, as I say, 10 years of pre-game warmup to be able to really talk about that level of growth. So just knocking on the door of $10 billion and truly, Jason, I can tell you, I feel like we’re just getting started. I feel like we are just at the beginning of the J-curve as advisors are really realizing that their most valuable asset is their time and the amount of enterprise value that they can create being independent. There’s a lot of different flavors of that. We’ve got some incredibly well-capitalized and very strong competitors, but the collective awareness around this bull market for advice that we’re sitting at the very beginning of is shining such a bright light on what does it mean to be independent? What does it mean to be really supported by a partner who’s all in to help them win? And that’s where we find ourselves. And by design, that’s where we find ourselves. Jason Diamond: Yeah, and it’s an exciting time. I completely agree. The space, the vertical you’re in, probably as much or more than any other pocket of the industry. You took the words out of my mouth, the J-curve. I completely agree with the story you’re telling. There’s one component of your background that I do want to ask about, which is many RIAs, platforms, and the like, the leadership team is intentionally ex-advisors in their own right. So I’m curious, do you think of it as a benefit or maybe to what degree is it not a benefit that you have never been an advisor and served clients? I do love the idea that you’re a business builder and you’re helping advisors to build a business. That’s not lost on me, but I’m curious specifically about never having been an advisor. Shannon Spotswood: I think it is so critical that we were advisor-founded. What we like to say is we’re advisor-founded and professionally-led. Bobby founded the firm in 2003. We partnered in 2015. Our third partner, Rick Wedell, who’s our chief investment officer, managing partner, joined in 2016. So the three of us really co-founded the version of RFG that is- Jason Diamond: The right version. Shannon Spotswood: … expressed in the market today. But you’re a hundred percent right to double click on this. And I think it is such an important area for reflection for advisors in terms of where are their greatest skills? Where does their passion lie? And what are they interested in building? That very first day that I met Bobby, his telling of the story is he looked at my resume the morning that we were meant to meet, and he is like, “Well, why would I hire her? She could do my job.” And he often talked about that where you get to this point as an advisor where the business is scaling and growing. And we certainly are seeing this in a lot of the larger teams that we’re talking to and the relationships that we’re beginning to build within the pipeline of these advisors who were attracted to the industry because they wanted to serve clients and find themselves as accidental CEOs, COOs, their chief cook and bottle washer to advisor to all of these C-suite titles. And it’s not amplifying their natural skillset and it’s not aligned with what is actually their passion for the business. So I give a tremendous amount of credit to Bobby for recognizing more than 10 years ago really what it would take and how he could align team around him and build partnerships around him to be able to maximize the impact that we can have for advisors. So that north star of keeping advisors front and center is truly our, it is woven into our DNA and it is our north star. So we are a client experience company by design. We talk about it all the time, whether it’s how we’re building our team, how we’re thinking about investing in technology, how we’re soliciting feedback for advisors. I always say one of our greatest strengths as an organization is we’re active listeners and then we actually execute on it. Our best ideas come from our advisors, but you’ve got to have that posture as a firm that everything you do is orienting around how do we help advisors operationalize, professionalize, drive organic growth, and create enterprise value? And you can’t do it sometimes. You’re either all in, chips all in, only winning when your advisors win, and only having that lens of will this benefit the advisor and their team or not. It’s not something that you can just dip your toe in and out of. And I think RFG, having that foundation from which to always build is absolutely critical. Jason Diamond: Can I try and paraphrase or synthesize, and you tell me if I get this right? The pitch is something to the effect of, “We are really good at what we do. Let us take all the BS off of your plate so that you can go out and be an advisor. Service your client and prospect.” Do you find that story is resonating more over time? I mean, you’ve been with the firm now long enough to see this kind of cycle of movement towards independence. How has that story evolved over time? Do you find it easier to tell? Shannon Spotswood: Oh my gosh, without question. And I would even put a shorter term window on it. I would say in the last 12 to 15 months- Jason Diamond: Oh wow. Shannon Spotswood: … there has been a collective awakening by advisors, and I think there’s a lot of contributing factors to that. One is obviously as we are all aware, the majority of the industry is now private equity backed. There has been a real focus on the aggregator model, transitioning advisors into a W-2 model. And as that has played out and that financial engineering has translated into some incredible valuations and returns, there has also been simultaneously advisors picking their head up and like, wait a minute, I wanted to get independent so I could serve my clients in a way that I felt best represented my vision and my values. And I’m finding myself increasingly in a captive environment. All the while the technology is getting better, the valuations are getting larger, the ability to control both your branding and what that means for your family legacy is increasing. So over the course of the last 15 to 18 months, that story has just, while it’s been there for a long time, the independent movement was obviously sparked more than, gosh, now 16, 20 years ago in earnest. Now it’s just the passion and the knowledge that advisors are showing up to conversations in recognizing I want more. I want to spend my time where I want to spend it. I want to serve more families. I want to be well-positioned for generational wealth transition. I want to own the enterprise value. I want to build my team and I want the best tech. And that to me is exactly why we’re at the beginning of this J-curve. Jason Diamond: Yeah, I think you nailed it. And I agree with you that this notion of independence is not a destination in and of… It’s too broad of a term I think to use. And there are plenty of advisors who either started at one version of independence and need something different now, or to your point, thought they were going independent only to realize perhaps there’s elements of the business that aren’t as independent as they realized. And that’s where I think a firm like RFG to me, it’s not an accident that your firm fills this niche. This was advisor demand driven. Advisors said explicitly and implicitly, “We want to be independent. We want to own our equity. We want to have control over the things we like, but we want a support partner that helps us with all the back office, the middle office, investment management, the flywheel,” as you call it. Shannon Spotswood: That’s right. Jason Diamond: One other element of your journey to this point that I want to ask about, the succession journey or the journey to CEO, and I’m only asking because it’s somewhat recent, I think it was 2024, so we’re about two years in CEO. For the eight years prior to that, you were president. Shannon Spotswood: Yes. Jason Diamond: And this dynamic is near and dear for a lot of advisors. This idea you’re the heir apparent, but the date hasn’t happened until it happened. Was that a smooth transition date or did you find yourself, and I hope you can be honest about it, and if not, I understand, but I think this is something that a lot of advisors in their own businesses struggle with. So as somebody who’s gone through a major succession journey in the last two years, I’m curious what your thoughts are. Shannon Spotswood: The timing coincided with us bringing on a growth capital partner. So we closed on that partnership with Long Ridge in the fall of 2023, and we really set our sights on how do we bring this capital into the business and invest in our team, invest in our technology, invest in this desire to help independent advisors build their business. And Long Ridge really shares that long-term strategic belief that independence and the corporate RIA model is the ultimate winning model. So we have a lot of room to run there. So entering into that growth partnership with Long Ridge really provided a natural opportunity for that succession conversation to take place and to be able to take the company to the next leg. So we’ve tripled the size of the company over the course of the last two and a half years. Jason Diamond: Good for you. Shannon Spotswood: And as I said, I feel like we’re just getting started. I always joke we’ve had the longest pre-game warmup in history. In a lot of ways that’s by design. For me, the way that I can sleep at night is knowing that we are waking up as a team in this unified front to walk the walk for our advisors. It is incredibly important to us to honor the promise that we’ve made, whether it’s on tech or talent or transition services or marketing growth. So being able to lean in and deliver that, it takes a long time to build that institutional know-how and to be uncompromising in consistently making hard decisions, whether it’s around talent or the investments that you’re making or how you’re running and growing and building the firm. And so Bobby reached and Long Ridge and all of us reached this point where it was just a very natural way. And I think it was such a gift that I had such a long warmup, if you will, in the bullpen, running the day-to-day of the business as president, being so close to sweating the details of how we built the foundation, how we run the firm. And then obviously Ed Swenson joined us as president in last fall in October of 2025, having joined our board when we partnered with Long Ridge. So he joined our board in September of ’23, and he and I set up a call every other week. So we just became this incredibly trusted confidant of mine as we made a lot of strategic investments and key strategic decisions in that first 15 to 18 months of our partnership with Long Ridge. So to be able to build and attract the caliber of talent that we have to RFG, I mean, I’m totally biased and talking my own book, but I think we have the best leadership team. Doug Nelson joined us from Long Ridge as our CFO in November of last year, just bringing that rigor, particularly around capital strategies into our C-suite. So it was the right time to make that transition. And what I would say for founder advisor-led firms, it’s all about what are your growth ambitions? It’s what are your growth ambitions? Without question, when I joined and Bobby and Rick and I set upon this journey to tear the entire company down and build this robust tech stack and be at the forefront as an innovator in that space, that was experience that I had from my 20 years in San Francisco. And Rick had this incredible institutional pedigree having spent 12 years at Bain Capital plus two years at Stanford Business School, complimenting this authenticity that Bobby brought as an advisor, bringing that together. So recognizing as a founder advisor, if you have growth ambitions to 10X your business, it’s going to require that you bring high caliber talent to the table and allow for that room both from an equity participation perspective, but also just from what does the business need as it continues to scale up? Jason Diamond: That’s exactly right. And part of this gets back to private equity sometimes gets a bad rep in our space, but the reality is capital from private equity enables a lot of what you’re talking about. And I give you a lot of credit. I mean, you make the half joke about the longest pregame warmup ever, but I think of it as you learned on your own dime and you built all the kinks and ironed out all the kinks prior to having this critical mass of advisors on your platform. And we’ve seen certainly plenty of firms go that route too. So I give you credit for that. I think because we’re on the topic, let’s talk about it, private equity. Positive experience, negative experience, neutral, neither good nor bad. Just give me your… I don’t want to make the episode about the perils- Shannon Spotswood: Right. Jason Diamond: … and benefits of private equity capital, but just curious what your experience has been. Shannon Spotswood: I think this is one of those life lessons. Choose your partners wisely and great things can happen, whether it’s in your marriage or your friendships- Jason Diamond: Spouse. Yep. Shannon Spotswood: … or your business partners. And Long Ridge found us very serendipitously. I mean, we were probably two years from even contemplating bringing in a growth capital partner. They were introduced to us by a former board member and they were in our offices in January of 2023. And the most important things for us were twofold. Number one, they shared our vision and belief that the corporate RIA independent is the winning model for the industry and for advisors and clients. And number two, who they are as people is very much who we are as people. They’re builders. Jason Diamond: Culturally. Shannon Spotswood: They have this servant heart growth mindset that they share with us. So I feel incredibly blessed to say they’re amazing partners. And what’s interesting, and I’ll share this very openly, they’re the majority owners of RFG. We were very early in that time of bringing them on. They have always honored the promise that they made to us, which is we run the business. They are a strategic partner. They’re a great thought partner. They are the capital provider, but there has been multiple examples where we have made business decisions where there’s been some heat in the kitchen, in the boardroom, and we’ve felt very strongly about it. So I just couldn’t say enough great things about them. And one thing that I will just share, and I say this because they’ve shared this with me, I have had this incredible personal journey of growth bringing such a deep bench in Long Ridge into the firm. And that has been certainly challenging at times. Do hard things, get comfortable being uncomfortable. It’s the ultimate definition. But I really think that is something that never gets talked about is what it means in upskilling the caliber of your talent, yourself, how you have to grow and evolve as an individual has been really, I won’t say it’s been easy, but I look back on what I’ve learned over these two years and just feel prepared as a leadership team, how we operate as a team, what is expected of us to be able to deliver and execute for our advisors in this next leg of growth. Jason Diamond: I think your marriage analogy is the perfect one, and I’m going to use it. And honestly, in a lot of ways. First of all, marriage is hard, good or bad. It’s hard. Second of all, it’s the ultimate… The institution of marriage is not good or bad. Private equity capital is not good or bad, but your answer is the right one. Pick your partner very wisely. My favorite part of your answer, because it’s the most original, was around a good capital backer, a good partner, whatever you want to call it, pushes you to be better. And I think that you’re surrounding yourself with, by definition, some of the smartest people in the industry, and that can’t be a bad thing. And the proof is in the pudding. The growth trajectory you’ve seen, it’s certainly no accident. I think part of it is tied to your incredible stewardship. You don’t have to answer that. You don’t have to be humble, but I’ll attribute it to you. That brings me to my next question. Shannon Spotswood: I do have to say really quickly. Jason Diamond: Please do. Shannon Spotswood: I will be celebrating my 27th wedding anniversary in October. So yeah, pick your partners. Jason Diamond: Congrats. And I feel equally blessed, I assume as you do. I have a great partner, I’ll say. I don’t know if she’s listening right now, but she’s a great spouse. What I was going to say though, good segue, I think there’s been more in recent years, but not a ton certainly of female C-suite wealth management executives. How do you feel about your role? Do you feel an increased burden? Is it an honor to you? Is it something that you don’t think much about at all? I’m curious what your thoughts are. Shannon Spotswood: I feel immense gratitude. I mean, just in general, leading RFG and locking arms with our team and our advisors is, I mean, a gift of a lifetime. I was incredibly fortunate to not just have mentors during my 20 years in San Francisco, but to have true sponsors. Whether it was the first hedge fund I worked at, I took that job because it was a female portfolio manager and at the time one of the only in the country. And she really opened up her heart to me and poured into me. And then 10 years at Symphony, the founding partners of Symphony, they dropped me into the deep end of the pool and gave me a lot of rope to make a lot of mistakes and continued to invest. So I have this foundation from which to build and to lead and to be ready for this role. I couldn’t do any of this without my partners. Rick and I have been partners for more than 10 years. It really does take a village in the same way that it takes a village to raise your family. It takes a village to find the courage and the strength to lead in a way that really honors the gravity of the mission. But I’ll tell you this. One, I knew I wanted to work on Wall Street from a very young age, so I chose this. I knew what I was getting into, that it was a male-dominated industry. I have made particularly, this is one of the unique facets of the wealth management business, we have phenomenal both male and female talent, and I have made the strongest female relationships on this side of the business as compared to the institutional side of the business. So I think there is a richness to our side of the industry that doesn’t get enough air cover. There are just phenomenal leaders, and I think increasingly so, we’re seeing more women stay in the game and raise into positions within the C-suite and leading these firms. I will tell you one thing in 2019, and I really give a lot of credit to Bobby for this in coaching me, is I was raised by wolves on Wall Street without question. I sat on a trade desk, I was completely comfortable with compartmentalizing emotion, and I made it a mission to develop intentionally my emotional intelligence. And that truly unlocked everything for me, and I think plays such a huge part of who I want to be and who I challenge myself to be as a leader. And so it’s funny when I get the question asked of me about being a female CEO, because I think that’s what people feel must be like came very intuitively to me, but I had to learn it. I had 20 plus years of being able to run with boys and I needed to develop that skill. And it is a skill that I challenge myself on a daily to continue to lean into. And I think it is increasingly important both for men and women who aspire to leadership to hone the strategic and execution alongside that emotional intelligence. Jason Diamond: Great answer. And I think you know I admire a lot about you, but it’s certainly one of the things I admire most about you is over the last couple years in particular you’ve been a real beacon of positivity, of empowerment in that regard. You’re active on socials, you’re active at industry events, you’re always willing to talk to people. And honestly, that to me is the answer. A lot of people complain about this as a problem, and I want to just take a second to applaud you because I think you and your firm actually do something to at least try and actively solve some of this. And also you mentioned it earlier, but same thing with some of the next gen dynamics. You skew much younger than the average firm on the industry. And I think that too is to your credit around, okay, we’ve identified that we have a major succession problem in our industry. What are we doing to solve that? Shannon Spotswood: Absolutely. Jason Diamond: Let’s talk about growth a little bit. I agree with your thesis. This space you occupy, no better time to be in it. We’re at the perfect spot on the J-curve. Unfortunately, we are not the only two people to think that. There are also, I think, some other firms. This space has become crowded. What do you think about that? Just the fact that there’s more competition than ever. I mean, my view of it is there are enough quality advisors to go around, but curious what you think. Shannon Spotswood: Anytime I find myself wading into the waters of fear and scarcity around this topic, I’m reminded that 67% of the assets still remain within the wirehouse and IBD space. We got lots of room to run. I believe in a mindset of abundance. The data will tell us that the demand for advice is increasing by 30% over the next decade while the number of advisors is decreasing by 1%. So we’ve got, find me another industry where you see a graph that looks like that. On top of that, next gen, which I think this is so fascinating, next gen actually wants more advice when compared to the baby boomers. So baby boomers created our industry, and here we are sitting on $87 trillion worth of generational wealth that’s going to begin to transition. That doesn’t even include all of the wealth that will be monetized through real estate and family-owned businesses. It is a tsunami. And what is, I think, really interesting is that next gen recognizes the value of their time. I’m sure if I had a conversation, Jason, with you and my husband about how intentional you want to be in terms of showing up for your children and the equal nature of parenting, that alone is changing the way the next gen thinks about both their professions as well as their family life, which means you by default have to hire professionals to do the things that you don’t want to spend the time doing. Jason Diamond: Really good point. Shannon Spotswood: So we have this incredible convergence that’s happening right now, and it’s coming at a time that technology is finally going to allow us to serve more families more intentionally along that wealth spectrum. So it is like, bring it on. There is more than enough to go around. We are in an era of abundance. And what I worry the most about, and this, it’s like climb up on the soapbox and let’s roll, about independence because I see and have so many conversations with advisors where they have been willing to accept such a compromised service experience that they would never allow to be delivered to their clients. So advisors are delivering this 24-hour concierge, high-touch, deeply thoughtful experience, estate planning, tax planning, financial planning, multi-generational conversations. They’re in it. They’re in the trench. And then they turn around and their service partner is so subpar. They’re compromising their growth. They’re burying them in compliance and ops and clicks and swivel chair and tech that doesn’t work. So we’re at the very beginning of this bull run for advice. And I think advisors who recognize, I want to serve more families, I want more control over my time, I want to be able to build enterprise value on my personal balance sheet, have room to do it. So I welcome the competition. I think the best way to talk about it is iron sharpens iron. I learn so much from our peers and like, ah, they did this or they did that. How do we think more disruptively, more innovatively? How do we do it differently? So I think there’s a lot of room for all of us. You’re going to be busy, my friend. You’re already sitting there advising the lion’s share of the big deals, and I think you guys are just getting started as well. Jason Diamond: Yeah, it certainly feels like a bull market for advice and also I think a bull market for some of the… You allude to an interesting paradox, which is some of the biggest and most sophisticated advisors in the industry have really high-touch impressive service models, but they don’t seem to demand the same in return. I have some thoughts as to why. I think one could just be Kool-Aid drinking, like you don’t know any better and you’ve been there for so long. There’s just so much friction associated with moving a business and fear associated that it’s unless things get really dire or unless I find something that’s better enough or meaningfully better enough, I can gut it out. But the third one that comes to mind is these firms we’re talking about have unequivocally, they do a lot of good, a lot of bad, but unequivocally one of the things they do really well is brand. Shannon Spotswood: Yeah. Jason Diamond: How do you reconcile that question with a firm that obviously doesn’t have a brand that the average American consumer would know? Shannon Spotswood: We take a posture on this that is rooted in an Accenture study that was conducted several years ago, but I think still remains so true today, is that advisors think that the value proposition that their clients are looking for, either it’s that big monobrand that’s advertising at the Super Bowl or the alpha they’re ever able to generate or the portfolio investments. But the clients tell us that what they’re looking for in an advisor is, do you get me? Do you share my values? And do I want to spend time with you outside the office? And that is basically distilled down the way we talk about it is people connect with people. So now more than ever, particularly if you take a big step back and you think about the influencer economy and how brands, big brands, Nike or big consumer brands have really leaned into niche branding. How do I get my brand into the hands of someone who’s very passionate about it? So advisors who develop their own brand, who have a presence on social, who have a presence in AEO and SEO, who are leaning in and expressing not only their client experience, but their vision and their values through their brand, I actually think as this generational wealth unfolds, that authenticity carries so much more weight than is my name on a football stadium. So it is those three factors. It’s just I’m comfortable. I don’t want ripple. It is friction and fear for sure. And then it’s like that branding is up for grabs because we certainly see one of the most fun parts of advisors joining RFG, this is a big part of what we do is helping them design and develop or reimagine their brand name, their logo, all the rest of it. Once that creative energy is unlocked and you get to tell your story, your my why, that connective tissue is so powerful with the clients and with the growth that comes from that because I mean, I truly believe people connect with people. They’re looking for that. And I think more so now than ever with AI. Jason Diamond: You just took the words out of my mouth. Do you think AI perpetuates that? Shannon Spotswood: I think people are craving that. And this is why advisors who are powered by AI without question are going to win. Advisors are not going to be disrupted by AI unless they haven’t made the move to get themselves in a position to be able to leverage the technology, the brand, the talent, the maximizing of their time. But especially with something as important and as personal as money, as you walk through life, I mean, you are at the very beginning. I’m sending, I’ll have all three kids in college. But as you make these critical decisions in your life, whether it’s getting married or starting a business or changing jobs or buying your first house, buying your vacation house, all of these things, you can go right or you can go wrong. And having a trusted partner who really understands you, I actually think that we’re going to see the fees paid for advisors increasing as there is a greater premium placed on, I want deeply personal relationships that are tailor-made for me. Jason Diamond: But I assume the flip side of that is you have to do more. You as a firm and you as an advisor have to do more, and you can’t just raise fees with the same service model. So I think what is the corollary of that? What are some of the ancillary growth areas that you do beyond the financial planning and asset management that says, “We’re worth that money you’re going to pay us”? Shannon Spotswood: It is, and I love the work that wealth.com is doing here. I mean, the estate planning and tax planning, making that more accessible along that continuum of wealth spectrum, the blurring of the lines between ultra high net worth and high net worth, and then mass affluent is so exciting. Better, more robust planning is good for our industry overall. Obviously there’s a huge amount of demand on the tax side of things, particularly the 1040. It’s easy to find a CPA to do the cool complex stuff. It’s increasingly more challenging for advisors. That’s an area that I know a lot of firms have leaned into. We’re certainly doing a lot of work. But so much of this, Jason, is showing up at the right time for clients with the resources. It’s a really interesting conversation about, yes, you have to do more for your clients, but you don’t have to do more for all your clients at exactly the same time. Jason Diamond: That’s well said. The flip side of that is as an advisor, because ultimately the advisors are the ones making this decision. There are a lot of firms, and not even just firms that you would be competitors with, because the reality is you and I understand the industry landscape and where various firms fit in. For many advisors, it’s a long list of various firm names that they’ve heard. So what are some things that you think advisors should be asking a firm like you or a business development person at your firm to suss this out? How does an advisor go about understanding if a platform is empty or is really going to be able to deliver in all these areas? Shannon Spotswood: Remember back in the day when the Wall Street Journal used to run have a monkey throw a dart and see if you can beat the pros on stock picking? I love to do that with regards to our advisors. We always tell our prospects, “Throw a dart at any advisor that’s affiliated with RFG and call them. Certainly we can provide a list of advisors who we think you’re going to most align with in terms of what your growth ambitions are or the way you want to run your business or who you are, life stage, all the rest of it.” But I do think that getting that unfiltered experience, the good, the bad, the ugly. We always are like, “Are we perfect? Absolutely not. Do we though immediately want the feedback so that we can iterate to excellence to get better? Absolutely. Get that firsthand testimony.” So that’s number one. Number two is don’t tell me, show me. There are so many, and it always pulls at my heart because as much as I love to win business and transition advisors, and I think that we’re working certainly at RFG on some really interesting technology that is anchored around removing that friction and fear by speeding up the time that you can make that transition in. And the tech is finally there to allow for this. So I think we’re going to be able to take variable number two and at least make that box a little bit smaller. But if I’m sitting as an advisor, I would want to see the evidence. Show me how you’ve solved the problems that advisors have brought to you. How have you refined your tech stack? How have you invested in your team? How have you made the decisions where the ROI can be measurable and tangible? And I think too often I’m surprised that advisors get, it’s almost as if they get overwhelmed by the amount of information that they’re taking in trying to compare all these different firms. If I’m ever asked, I’m like, please work with a third-party recruiter. You need someone not only to act as an interpreter, but you need someone to help really keep your top three priorities at the front of your decision-making matrix, because it really is apples to oranges to orangutans and you get decision fatigue. And then advisors end up making this decision that is anchored in like, well, this is the highest payout, and I’m willing to take all of these sacrifices and paper cuts for this highest payout. And that is just such a travesty. So it’s like, know what you want. What are your top three problems that you’re trying to solve? Talk to advisors that you get to pick just so you can do some secret shopping, and then demand evidence of how the firm, the platform has responded to feedback and gotten better as a result because that will tell you, are they really going to walk the walk or are they just going to talk the talk? Jason Diamond: I’m super grateful that you gave specifics there because it’s an easy question to dodge and talk around. So I completely agree. Your first answer, actually all three of those points you just made, but certainly doing name-blind calls, and I say name-blind because advisors worry about confidentiality. I think that’s one of the best and most underrated tools to learn about a firm is advisors now have so many colleagues. There’s been this diaspora of advisors where advisors know advisors everywhere. And that’s a benefit if you wanted to go and just network and have conversations with other advisors on your own. But if you’re worried about confidentiality, there’s certainly the mechanisms, and we do this all the time for advisors to set up name-blind calls. You dial into a conference line, it’s John Smith, and you pick an advisor’s brain and say, “Hey, you moved your book from LPL to RFG, and tell me what that experience was like and what were the positives? Give me all the negatives.” To your point, you want advisors to ask those questions in advance. It’s better to ask those questions than to end up in the wrong marriage with the advisor. Shannon Spotswood: Absolutely. And the other thing is what an easy answer to BS around is tell me who’s a good fit for your firm. And it’s like, “Everyone’s welcome here.” Jason Diamond: Everybody. Yeah. Shannon Spotswood: It’s just not true. RFG is not a good fit for an advisor who is not open to using technology, who is not interested in outsourcing investment management, who doesn’t want to have a conversation about how are you spending your time and do you want to create enterprise value? Do you want to grow? So it really is important to have that vulnerability and that honesty and the answer to that question. Jason Diamond: I love it. We have time for one more. I can’t believe it’s been almost an hour. Shannon Spotswood: I know, it flies by. Jason Diamond: We speak with plenty of advisors who aren’t considering a move, but I’m interested. I think you have a really nice lens into the industry. What is one thing you wish advisors knew? You have a megaphone to just talk to advisors who maybe are considering change, but maybe aren’t. What’s the questions they should be thinking about? What keeps you up at night? Just what would be your public service announcement? Shannon Spotswood: I’m going to focus on the friction and fear because that’s the number one barrier to making a move is PTSD, either first person PTSD or the collective negative experience that the industry has had. It took me 90 days to transition. I got sued by my former firm. I lost all these clients. I didn’t have income. The wise tales of fear are very widely trafficked and widespread. And what I would say to an advisor is everything you want is on the other side of fear. And I look at all of this data that suggests exactly the opposite, which is you have the relationship with the client. You have the trust with the client. You are the one who they call on Sunday night when they need a shoulder to cry on or sage advice for making a decision. Just believe it with the core of your being because what we see is 99% of assets transition, whether it’s a restrictive transition or you’re taking full data, that the majority of assets are transitioning within 30 days, that this is still a free country, and you can make a move while honoring your contract around non-solicitation, non-competes, and non-associations. So it is like this fear of holding advisors back is preventing them from realizing and monetizing this enterprise value, but equally as importantly, loving their business. Have fun. This should be fun. We spend the majority of our life at work. And so being able to surround yourself with people who win when you win, with a team who’s aligned and isn’t just drudgery with all their operations compliance headaches that they’re dealing with. Your team deserves to be happy. You deserve to be happy. And that fear factor is holding so many advisors back. So that’s my advice is that it just doesn’t have to play out that way. And I think not just at RFG, collectively where we are as an independent industry with technology, with the way that AI is changing and our ability to harness data and business intelligence, getting to that point of next best action, how am I spending my time, how am I realizing, what is the blueprint for realizing my growth goals is more tangible now than ever. That’s immediately where I go. Jason Diamond: I’ve never been an advisor. I’ve never had a book of business, so I don’t want to minimize the fear, but I will say this. If we speak to advisors, let’s say a year post-transition, by far the number one thing we hear from them is, “I wish I did this sooner.” Shannon Spotswood: Wish I did it sooner. Jason Diamond: And that to me is the most telling data point there is to your point about fear and getting over it. Shannon Spotswood: So I do this exercise all the time with our team as we’re onboarding advisors is I want you to go home and look at your spouse and tell them, “I’m going to leave my job. I have no certainty that everything is going to work out. We might not receive any kind of compensation. Are you cool with that?” Walk that emotional journey. And while there’s plenty obviously that we can do with Capital Solutions to ease the financial fear associated with it, I still think at the baseline, it’s a great exercise to keep everyone very humble. You are asking an advisor to take their life’s work. And someone was sharing this analogy with me the other day and I was like, “Oh my gosh, that’s so good,” which is imagine moving houses. It’s such a hassle packing up moving one house. Now imagine moving 400 households or 1,200 households. It’s a lot, but I always hear the same thing, “I wish I’d done it sooner.” Jason Diamond: Thank you for sharing. You had some really sage wisdom that you shared with our audience. I can’t wait to see the next chapter, the continuation of the J-curve. This has been a fantastic episode, Shannon. Thank you. Shannon Spotswood: I love being with you, Jason. Thank you so much. We appreciate it. Mindy Diamond: As a financial advisor, you hold yourself to the highest standards of integrity, honesty, and credibility. You are successful because you take your professional responsibilities seriously and are dedicated to your clients. But are you living your best business life? Are your goals aligned with your firms or could a better option exist? Should I Stay or Should I Go? is a book written with you in mind. It’s a self-guided journey that walks you through the key steps that we take with our advisor clients. This strategic thought process and roadmap to professional self-discovery is designed to help you ask the right questions and think critically and objectively, whether you’re considering change or not. Learn how to get your copy at diamond-consultants.com/thebook.

   August 20, 2026·54min
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