Science feels under attack. The Trump administration has proposed budget cuts of up to one-third of all basic research funding, breaking a generations-long, bipartisan consensus that what is good for science is good for America. Even if not fully enacted by Congress, even the hint of cuts has already had an extraordinary effect on the perceptions of higher education and science leaders on America’s stability. Lux recently hosted a dinner with a group of these luminaries, and the general conclusion is that science institutions will need to radically change in the years ahead to adapt.

Host Danny Crichton wanted to talk more about this subject, and then he realized that we just published a great episode on our sister podcast, The Orthogonal Bet. Lux’s scientist-in-residence, Sam Arbesman, had on Kenneth Stanley, the senior vice president of open-endedness at Lila Sciences. Kenneth is also the author of “Why Greatness Cannot Be Planned: The Myth of the Objective, a widely praised book exploring the nature of creativity and discovery.”

The two talked about the future of research institutions, and how new forms of organizational designs might be the key to unlocking the next frontiers of knowledge in the 21st century. Their conversation delves into the tradeoffs between traditional and novel research institutions, how to carve out space for exploratory or “weird” work within large organizations, and how research itself can serve as a tool for navigating disruption.