Navigating Religious Trauma, Spiritual Abuse, and Lies About God: An interview with Dr. Jamie Marich

Curt and Katie interview Dr. Jamie Marich about her new book coming out in October 2024, You Lied to Me About God. We explore the impacts of religious abuse, Jamie’s personal story of spiritual trauma, and what therapists can miss when working with clients on these topics. We also dig into the idea that therapists can let their clients down when they don’t do their own internal work, address their bias, and show up effectively.

Transcripts for this episode will be available at mtsgpodcast.com!

In this podcast episode, we look at the impacts of spiritual trauma on therapy clients

We invited our friend, Dr. Jamie Marich, back on the podcast to talk about her story (and her upcoming book) that deals with spiritual abuse, religious trauma, and the lies that have been told "in God's name" that lead to shame and isolation for many of our clients.  

What are the impacts of spiritual abuse and religious trauma?

·      Definition of shame as the lie someone told you about yourself

·      Spiritual abuse goes deeper because the lies are told in God’s name

·      There are big impacts of religious trauma on those in the LGBTQ+ community as well as those who are seeking deep spiritual connection

Looking at the concept of forgiveness within the context of religious and other trauma

·      How forgiveness can be helpful

·      How forgiveness is weaponized within the church and can be harmful

·      Forgiveness is not required, acceptance is a more appropriate goal

How can therapists make sure they are not adding to the harm for clients with religious trauma?

·      Do your own work, so you can approach clients where they are

·      Be authentic, don’t lie to your clients, but don’t bring it up unless asked

·      Seek consultation to enhance your understanding of the client’s situation

·      Cultural humility is key, and don’t rely solely on your clients to be the cultural informant

·      Do not impose your spirituality on your clients, but be open to discussing spirituality

·      Be aware of the power dynamics, so you don’t become the client’s new guru

·      Help clients to find their own answers rather than relying on external authority

Other ideas we touched on in this podcast episode

·      The importance of critical thinking

·      “Therapy cults” that promote adherence to a specific intervention model

·      The challenges of folks seeking compliance and righteousness, rather than taking a nuanced approach to topics and deciding for themselves

Stay in Touch with Curt, Katie, and the whole Therapy Reimagined #TherapyMovement:

Our Linktree: https://linktr.ee/therapyreimagined

Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide Creative Credits:

Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/

Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano https://groomsymusic.com/

Do Therapists Lie to Their Clients?

Curt and Katie chat about whether therapists are dishonest and whether they should be. We received a request from a listener to talk about the idea that therapists lie to their clients. We look at what types of lies are common, whether lying is expected or acceptable, what to do instead, and how to decide whether you will lie or not in session.

Transcripts for this episode will be available at mtsgpodcast.com!

In this podcast episode we talk through how, when, and why therapists lie

We received a listener email requesting a discussion on therapist dishonesty and the impact on the therapeutic relationship.

What types of lies might a therapist tell?

·      Whoppers (fraud)

·      Fibs (untruths that support the clinical work or the therapeutic relationship)

·      Omission (concealing facts that impact the client)

·      Deflections (bending the truth for therapeutic effect)

·      Denial (rejecting reality, with positive and negative results)

 Is it good or bad for a therapist to lie?

·      Fraud is never okay, and is illegal and unethical

·      Fibs may be in the best interest of the client OR could be to protect the therapist (which is human, but not really okay)

·      Professionalism, exaggerating/minimizing emotional responses for therapeutic effect, and “social niceties” may be appropriate, but it is important to think about authenticity and whether it will negatively impact the client if they perceive the deception

·      If a client is asking for the therapist’s opinion of them, the context of the client’s treatment agreements and their needs, as well as the therapeutic relationship impact whether a therapists will be best served by honesty or deflecting or denying the truth

What can therapists do when they are tempted to lie to their clients?

·      Make the decision of whether to tell the truth based on the context of the relationship and treatment goals

·      Be more transparent with the client about therapist’s limitations, while also holding hope and accountability to address these limitations

·      Work collaboratively with the client to get to the information or treatment interventions that are needed, rather than working by and for yourself.

·      If you lie to your client and it backfires, work to make repairs (see our episode on “Should Therapists Admit Mistakes?)

Stay in Touch with Curt, Katie, and the whole Therapy Reimagined #TherapyMovement:

Our Linktree: https://linktr.ee/therapyreimagined

Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide Creative Credits:

Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/

Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano https://groomsymusic.com/

Welcome to Therapist Grad School!

Curt and Katie chat about what the career is like, what is important to know starting out in grad school. We look at what prospective therapists need to know as they enter school, including hard truths and tips for social support. We also talk about what changes are needed in the profession and how students and new therapists can navigate these challenges. We provide suggestions on how to best take advantage of the opportunities in graduate school. We also unveiled a new project for the podcast.

Transcripts for this episode will be available at mtsgpodcast.com!

In this podcast episode we talk through what the therapist career is like

We decided to talk through what it is like to be a therapist and how to best navigate your grad school education.

What do prospective therapists need to know as they enter grad school?

·      Grad school doesn’t cover all that you’ll need to know to be an effective therapist

·      Lived experience is valid and definitely informs your work

·      It is important to assess what you already know, what you need to unlearn, what interventions you can add to what you already know

·      Learning how to be a “safe therapist” is not the same as learning to be a “good therapist”

·      Theories and orientations are foundational, but you can’t know them all

·      Once you graduate, that’s when you actually start learning how to be a therapist

What can grad school students and new therapists expect regarding needed changes in the profession?

·      Changes may happen, but slowly

·      There can be times for advocacy to help increase the sustainability of the practice

·      You don’t need to worry about getting a job immediately, but you can start working with clients or in the field, if you would like or need to do so financially

·      There are a number of students who burnout before graduation, so pay attention to your capacity and self-care practices

What opportunities are important to take advantage of while you are in grad school for therapy?

·      Consider taking the hardest or more complex practicum sites to learn how to work with the most challenging populations

·      Volunteer to do roll plays and risk making mistakes in your classes

·      Make mistakes while you are a student and prelicensed individual to get the supervision and oversight, to learn from these mistakes

What are some hard truths about becoming a therapist?

·      The therapy profession is not for everyone

·      Not all students will make it through to graduation or to licensure (whether by choice or not)

·      Grad schools are not always transparent with how long it will take to get through the program, whether you will have support in getting a practicum site

·      The entry level jobs in the field may not pay very well (i.e., some are at or only slightly above minimum wage)

·      There is a risk of becoming disillusioned by the state of the world and the profession

What are the social elements of becoming a therapist?

·      If you’re only friends and socializing with therapists, your view of the world may become more limited

·      There can be echo chambers, especially around social justice topics within mental health

·      Having friends who are therapists, so you can have the validation and understanding of other therapists

·      Socialization can be too focused on alcohol-forward events. It is important to find other ways to socialize to avoid the risks of substance abuse and dependence, especially as therapists are held to a higher standard through licensure

·      Take responsibility for self-care/self-maintenance

Stay in Touch with Curt, Katie, and the whole Therapy Reimagined #TherapyMovement:

Our Linktree: https://linktr.ee/therapyreimagined

Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide Creative Credits:

Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/

Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano https://groomsymusic.com/

Are Therapist Conferences Elitist? An interview with Linda Thai, LMSW

Curt and Katie interview Linda Thai on her experiences as a conference attendee, keynote speaker, and educator. We discussed the need for more accessible, community-centric, and culturally humble education as well as how to more effectively share knowledge. The limitations of traditional educational models (which Linda calls the Continuing Education Industrial Complex) are discussed as well as how conferences can be exclusive or elitist. We explore how to best access continuing education and take advantage of all types of educational opportunities.

Transcripts for this episode will be available at mtsgpodcast.com!

In this podcast episode, we look at how privilege and elitism show up in therapist conferences.

Katie recently took one of Linda Thai’s courses and was fascinated by the way that she was able to make an engaging virtual course. We reached out and requested she share her wisdom with us and we found ourselves talking about the nature of continuing education.  

Why should therapists attend (or not attend) mental health conferences?

·      If you understand what type of conference you are attending and take advantage of that opportunity (to learn, build community, or something else) attending mental health conferences can be beneficial to therapists

·      There can be an inherent elitism in conferences, both in who is able to comfortably attend as well as who can participate as speakers or in supporting conferences

·      Continuing education can also have bias and privilege white (typically female) therapists, especially those who have been in private practice for many years.

·      Conferences are often events designed to inspire and create community, the learning experiences may not be as deep as therapists need to truly get what they need as clinicians

What are the primary concerns in continuing education for mental health professionals?

·      What qualifies as continuing education seems limited (i.e., lived experience is discounted as valid education)

·      There is a bureaucracy within continuing education approval that makes it difficult for speakers and conference hosts to be able to allow for interactivity and emergence within the workshops

·      Too often the same speakers are elevated and there is a need to center lived experience and marginalized voices to co-create collective learning and liberation

Stay in Touch with Curt, Katie, and the whole Therapy Reimagined #TherapyMovement:

Our Linktree: https://linktr.ee/therapyreimagined

Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide Creative Credits:

Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/

Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano https://groomsymusic.com/

How Much is Too Much? Thoughts on therapists being too branded, niched, and political

Curt and Katie chat about the delicate balance between authenticity and influence in therapy, with a focus on avoiding bias and discrimination while still being real people. We also navigate the challenges of political discussions in therapy, emphasizing the need to balance political awareness with client needs and goals.

Transcripts for this episode will be available at mtsgpodcast.com!

In this podcast episode we explore the risks of bringing too much of your own beliefs into your work as a therapist

We have been rethinking the conversations we’ve had about blank slate and the Brand Called You. We look at the risks of being too branded or niched, or too political. We also talk about what might be more beneficial for clients, without losing the work toward authenticity and real connections as therapists.

Do therapists bring too much of themselves into their work?

How can therapists be “political” without just talking politics or inappropriately influencing their clients?

What can therapists do to balance branding and authenticity with effective client care?

Stay in Touch with Curt, Katie, and the whole Therapy Reimagined #TherapyMovement:

Our Linktree: https://linktr.ee/therapyreimagined

Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide Creative Credits:

Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/

Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano https://groomsymusic.com/

How Can Therapists Help Politically Divided Families? : An interview with Angela Caldwell, LMFT

Curt and Katie interview Angela Caldwell, LMFT about family therapy for politically divided families. We explore what therapists get wrong when working with these families as well as what works better. Angela talks us through the goals for family therapy, how to move families from trying to convince each other to understanding each other better, and the importance of distress tolerance and finding ways for families to survive, even when members strongly disagree with each other.

Transcripts for this episode will be available at mtsgpodcast.com!

In this podcast episode, we talk about how therapists can work with politically divided families

During the run up to the 2024 US presidential election, we are seeing more and more political division, even in families. We reached out to our good friend Angela Caldwell, LMFT, to talk through how therapists can support families during this challenging time. 

What do therapists get wrong when working with politically divided families?

·      Therapists inaccurately agree with families that the goal is either communication skills or getting consensus

·      The goals for family therapy are increasing tolerance for differing opinions and sustaining relationships even when you disagree

How can therapists address the societal messages that negatively impact relationships?

·      Modeling holding affection while disagreeing on viewpoints

·      Hold sacred that everyone in the room has come to their viewpoint honestly

·      Focus on the why for the positions people take

·      Listen for and mark trigger words to help “opposing party” to stay with the explanation of viewpoint

·      Soften the relationship through understanding

What can therapists do if clients feel frightened of the beliefs of their family members?

·      Explore perspective and increase clarity on the real anxious feelings

·      Find common ground related to hopes for the world

·      Work on distress tolerance with the anxious feelings

·      Hold the moment of anxiety and then move to reassurance (i.e., that the relationship can survive opposing viewpoints)

What does the work of family therapy look like with politically divided families?

·      Set reasonable expectations

·      Make sure to give pep talks

·      Plan and promise for the next session before ending the previous session

·      Personal connection between sessions (like short texts)

·      Don’t play “gotcha” when someone is wrong

·      Set ground rules at the beginning of therapy related to showing source material for viewpoints

Stay in Touch with Curt, Katie, and the whole Therapy Reimagined #TherapyMovement:

Our Linktree: https://linktr.ee/therapyreimagined

Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide Creative Credits:

Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/

Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano https://groomsymusic.com/

Beyond "Being a Therapist is Hard Work": Curt and Katie respond to listener feedback

Curt and Katie received feedback on a recent episode, Don’t Let Tik Tok Fool You: Being a therapist is hard work, an interview with Anita Avedian and Sandra Kushnir. We talk through the feedback that the perspective was too one-sided (primarily from the employer angle) and that it was too much in support of the status quo. We share our perspectives as well as how big of a challenge we’re facing as a profession to become sustainable. 

Transcripts for this episode will be available at mtsgpodcast.com!

In this podcast episode we talk about the challenges of making the therapy profession more sustainable

We received a lot of feedback about our episode with Anita Avedian and Sandra Kushnir. We decided it was worth addressing the feedback directly and continue the conversation.

Why is there a tension between experienced and new mental health professionals?

·      The “necessary” tension between those who support what is and those who advocate for what should be

·      Supervisors or managers who reinforce what has been seen to be unsustainable in the field

·      New clinicians coming in and advocating for things to be better and more sustainable

·      The challenge with innovating when the system has burned someone out

What are the primary challenges in the therapy profession in 2024?

·      Burnout

·      Lower pay (that is not keeping up with inflation)

·      A workload that seems unsustainable, especially to newer clinicians

What can therapists do to improve their profession?

·      Read Saving Psychotherapy by Dr. Ben Caldwell

·      Look for opportunities to reimagine the field, by looking at other sectors (or disruptors in the field like technology)

·      Support advocacy efforts through unions, professional associations, or lobbying legislators

Stay in Touch with Curt, Katie, and the whole Therapy Reimagined #TherapyMovement:

Our Linktree: https://linktr.ee/therapyreimagined

Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide Creative Credits:

Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/

Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano https://groomsymusic.com/

What is Working Now in Online Marketing: An interview with Katie Read

Curt and Katie interview Katie Read on how the economy has shifted and what works for marketing has shifted. We look at how things have shifted since the pandemic and what therapists can think about now for their therapy and online businesses. Katie gives us simple strategies and clear insights on what isn’t working anymore and what to do instead.

Transcripts for this episode will be available at mtsgpodcast.com!

In this podcast episode, we talk about how therapist marketing must shift post-pandemic

Katie Read has been doing research into what is working in marketing for service providers. We thought we’d ask her back to talk about how the shifting economy is impacting therapists.

How have the shifts in the economy changed business for therapists?

·      After the pandemic, people stopped having time for “personal growth”

·      Therapy is seen more as a luxury

·      People have lost patience for content marketing (like a very long webinar)

·      Potential clients are more likely to pay for services for a specific, acute pain point, rather than non-specific pain points or personal growth

·      Big Tech is coming into the space and becoming competitors

·      TikTok has changed attention spans, so we must market in shorter, more concise bullet points

What strategies can therapists use to improve their businesses?

·      Assess the market and identify specific niches that are harder to treat by big tech

·      Capture attention by speaking directly to where it hurts, in bullet points and visuals

·      Identify problematic expectations, for example meeting someone when they are in crisis and then keeping them for personal growth (rather than expecting them to seek out personal growth work)

Do therapists need to have a big social media presence?

·      Many people have been successful selling their services without a big social media following

·      If you don’t enjoy social media, you don’t need to spend time on it

·      If you enjoy social media and have fun creating compelling content, it can be hugely helpful

·      If you aren’t interested in doing social media, one option is the static 9 grid on Instagram

How can therapists get a more specific niche?

·      Understand that your niche may evolve over time, so go for what you know now

·      Look at what lights you up

·      Explore you own story to identify what you’ve learned and what you can share

Stay in Touch with Curt, Katie, and the whole Therapy Reimagined #TherapyMovement:

Our Linktree: https://linktr.ee/therapyreimagined

Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide Creative Credits:

Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/

Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano https://groomsymusic.com/

What to do when supervision goes bad? A guide to supervision ruptures and repair

Curt and Katie chat about what to do when there is a loss of trust in supervision. We explore what has already been researched (and the limitations there). We also look at what can make ruptures more likely, different types of ruptures, and how supervisors can mitigate the risk of rupture and then repair when ruptures inevitably happen. This is a continuing education podcourse.

Transcripts for this episode will be available at mtsgpodcast.com!

In this podcast episode we talk about how to address ruptures in clinical supervision

Clinical supervision has the potential for errors and requires management from the supervisor to acknowledge, deal with, and repair from mistakes that could rupture the supervisory alliance. This workshop helps to identify the types of ruptures that can occur and offers a strategy on how to deal with them so that they are no longer a problem.

What is the focus within the research base on clinical supervision?

·      Most of the research on supervision is focused on clinical supervision without a consideration of the employment element of the relationship

·      There is not a lot of research on supervision, much less ruptures in supervision

·      Much of the research has been from the supervisee perspective, but that is shifting

·      Without supervisors being involved in research, there is a risk of supervisors dismissing it

What can make ruptures more likely in supervisory relationships?

·      Power differential within the clinical supervision relationship may lead to supervisees feeling unable to talk about mistakes that supervisors make

·      Expectations of safety and confidentiality that are not discussed or are assumed to be greater than they are, with a lack of transparency

·      Supervisors are responsible to address ruptures, but may not know about them

·      Supervisors can fall into risk management and punishment or not allowing supervisees to do anything that may challenge their skill level

What can supervisors do to avoid supervisory ruptures?

·      Acknowledge the fallibility of both the supervisor and the supervisee

·      Supervisors share when they don’t know something and learn what they need to learn to support their supervisee

·      Understanding the impact of each perspective on expectations (i.e., supervisors in agencies are also impacted by the expectations that they have on them from their own supervisors)

·      Identify confrontation versus avoidance rupture risks

·      Being more transparent on the process of supervision and about the supervisor’s competence and emotional responses

·      Understanding and assessing for cultural ruptures, microaggressions, etc.

Can supervisory ruptures also happen based on actions of the supervisee?

·      Yes!

·      Supervisees can misunderstand their role and not complete what is expected of them

·      Supervisees can fail to develop as a clinician

·      Supervisees may ask peers rather than their supervisor for what to do and do the wrong things

How can supervisors repair the ruptures that happen in clinical supervision?

·      Setting the stage for the most positive supervisory experience

·      Cultural humility

·      Pause, Consider, Reflect, Act (C.E. Watkins, Jr.’s work)

Receive Continuing Education for this Episode of the Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide

Continuing Education Information including grievance and refund policies.

Stay in Touch with Curt, Katie, and the whole Therapy Reimagined #TherapyMovement:

Our Linktree: https://linktr.ee/therapyreimagined

Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide Creative Credits:

Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/

Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano https://groomsymusic.com/

Should We Stop Badmouthing Evidence Based Practice? An interview with Jessica Tappana, LCSW

Curt and Katie interview Jessica Tappana, LCSW about evidence-based practices (EBPs). We talk about what EBPs actually are and how to implement them in clinically sound and ethical ways. We look at what therapists usually get wrong about EBPs and what they can do to improve their practice.

Transcripts for this episode will be available at mtsgpodcast.com!

In this podcast episode, we talk about how Evidence Based Practices work in the real world

Jessica is a long-time listener of the show and a good friend of ours and has been talking with us about how we have spent too much time bad-mouthing EBPs. We decided it would be good to hash out the ideas around “manualized treatment” and how you can actually bring yourself as a clinician into the work, even when using these interventions that are backed by science.

What are Evidence-Based Practices?

·      Using well-researched interventions

·      Using the expertise of the clinician

·      Understanding the needs of the clients

What should therapists know about evidence-based practice?

·      There is room to implement EBP without full adherence

·      Contrasting “eclectic” from “meeting a client where they are” and pulling from other evidence-based interventions

·      The ways that EBPs are trained and studied (due to funding sources) lead to strict adherence

·      How you teach or implement the EBP can be unique to the clinicians

·      Contrasting fidelity of the model with adherence to model

·      You can bring yourself as a therapist into the room AND provide evidence-based interventions

·      Training and supervision is more challenging when you are not seeking strict adherence

·      It’s important to have time to practice therapy outside of sessions with clients

What data or assessments should therapists use with Evidence Based Practices?

·      Feedback informed care (e.g., FIT)

·      Assessments of depression or anxiety consistently to see progress

·      Screening tools and measurement to track progress

·      It is important for clinicians to believe in and use the data collection

Stay in Touch with Curt, Katie, and the whole Therapy Reimagined #TherapyMovement:

Our Linktree: https://linktr.ee/therapyreimagined

Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide Creative Credits:

Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/

Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano https://groomsymusic.com/