The Operations Room: A Podcast for COO’s

In this episode we discuss: Is wellbeing a complete waste of time? We are joined by Gethin Nadin, cited as one of HR’s Most Influential Thinkers and author of the bestseller “A Work In Progress: Unlocking Wellbeing to Create More Sustainable and Resilient Organisations.”

Bethany and I discuss: 

• What is the COO’s role in solving workplace stress? 
• What can a COO do to optimise employees and support their mental health? 

We chat about the following with Gethin: 

• What is wellbeing? In the context of a company, what are we talking about? 
• What is the view on the Guardian article that suggests wellness programmes are a waste of time? 
• What is the impact of DE&I on mental health? 
• How has the social contract changed between employee and employer? 
• Where does corporate responsibility end and personal responsibility start?
• How does an organisation optimise employees to achieve the biggest shareholder return? 

References:

• A Work In Progress: Unlocking Wellbeing to Create More Sustainable and Resilient Organisations
• Workplace wellbeing is a complete waste of time (Gethin’s response to the Guardian article)
• Work ‘wellness’ programmes don’t make employees happier - but I know what does (Guardian article)
• https://www.linkedin.com/in/gethinnadin/
• http://www.hellobenefex.com
• Spill. Mental health provider

Biography: 

I am a leading psychologist and author with over 20 years of experience in HR tech, employee wellbeing, and engagement. As a Fellow of the Royal Society of Arts and a Member of the British Psychological Society, I have been recognised as one of the world's most influential HR thinkers and a top global employee experience influencer. 

Currently, I serve as the Chief Innovation Officer at both Benefex and Zellis, two of the UK's leading providers of employee benefits and payroll solutions. In this role, I leverage my expertise in wellbeing, employee experience, and financial wellbeing to create innovative and sustainable solutions for organisations and their people. I am also a member of the All Party Parliamentary Group on the Future of Employability, where I advise on policy and practice for improving the employability of the UK workforce. 

I am passionate about sharing my knowledge and insights with others through speaking, writing, and teaching. I have published two bestselling books, 'A World of Good' and 'A Work in Progress', which explore the best practices and emerging trends in improving the employee experience and wellbeing across the globe. I have also contributed to various media outlets, such as Forbes, The Financial Times, and The Guardian, and co-hosted a UK tour with Ruby Wax OBE to campaign for better mental health in the workplace. My mission is to help organisations and individuals thrive in the changing world of work.

Summary:

• Walking in London, exhaustion, and appreciation for the city. 0:06
• Bethany talks about her recent walk in London, mentioning the Thames and a noodle shop in Greenwich.
• Bethany quotes Samuel Pepys, saying "when you're tired of London, you're tired of life," reflecting on her previous exhaustion with living in London but now re-appreciating it as her children have grown older.
• Workplace well-being and its impact on employee mental health. 2:24
• CEO has significant influence on employee mental health by creating a stress-reducing work environment.
• Brandon M and Bethany discuss the importance of financial security in creating a positive work culture, with Bethany noting that even with the right policies in place, a fear-based culture can still exist if the CEO is insecure or paranoid.
• The pair also highlight the danger of CEOs presenting one image and picture for the company while undermining it with their actions, creating a sense of double talk or gaslighting.
• Bethany and Brandon discuss the five levels of organisational leadership, ranging from a pessimistic view of the world to a transcendent one focused on the betterment of society.
• They agree that level three, where most people operate, is characterized by ego-driven politics, while level four involves a common enemy and level five is a state of flow and collaboration.
• Workplace wellness programs and their benefits. 9:33
• Brandon M and Bethany discuss the importance of investing in personal well-being and mental health support for employees, with examples of successful implementation in their company.
• They highlight the benefits of using a platform like Slack for on-demand therapy and coaching, and how it can help remove the stigma around mental health support.
• Brandon M and Bethany discussed the importance of investing in employee wellness programs, including mental health support and financial planning.
• They agreed that wellness programs are often inexpensive and can provide significant benefits for employees, but may require more holistic approach to budgeting and prioritization.
• Brandon and Bethany discuss the importance of well-being in the workplace, particularly for line managers, and how it can be supported through coaching and other means.
• They debate whether well-being is a waste of time, with Bethany expressing skepticism about the effectiveness of training and the importance of coaching for personal growth.
• Workplace well-being and employee stress. 17:21
• Gethin Nadin discusses the importance of workplace well-being, citing research showing 90-99% of people experience extreme stress at work.
• Employers must support employees' well-being, despite not causing the cost of living crisis or pandemic, and must move away from the idea of "do no harm" to create an environment where employees' lives are better off for working with them.
• Workplace wellbeing and its impact on employee happiness and productivity. 19:39
• Gethin Nadin agrees with the Guardian article that wellness programs can be ineffective if workplace stress is caused by poor management practices.
• He believes that wellness initiatives are only effective when companies prioritize employee well-being and address the root causes of stress, such as unclear expectations and too much pressure.
• Gethin Nadin argues that wellbeing initiatives like mindfulness are important but not a replacement for organizational structure and culture changes.
• He believes that high performers are at high risk of burnout and that a combination of structural and mindfulness interventions is necessary for effective wellbeing management.
• Workplace mental health and inclusion. 24:31
• Gethin Nadin highlights the importance of inclusive policies and structures in workplaces, particularly for marginalized groups, to address mental health issues and promote a safe and supportive environment.
• Bethany emphasizes the need for policies that address the DI (diversity, inclusion) side of things, including sexual harassment policies, to create a culture where women feel safe to speak up about their experiences in the workplace.
• Gethin Nadin highlights the UK police force as an example of a workplace where women face systemic barriers and discrimination, with a culture of "laddish behavior" and a lack of support for mental health.
• Nadin emphasizes the need for institutions to take concrete actions to address these issues, such as holding perpetrators accountable and creating a more inclusive work environment.
• Diversity, inclusion, and activism in the workplace. 28:12
• Organizations must create a safe and welcoming environment for diverse employees to thrive, including policies and benefits that address gender identity and expression.
• Bethany and Gethin discuss the power of the workplace in shaping society, with examples of employers taking a stand against government decisions that negatively impact their employees.
• Gethin highlights the business drivers for diversity, including increased productivity, innovation, and collaboration, and wonders if more managers understand the impact on their team's performance.
• Shifting corporate responsibility and investing in employees. 32:29
• Brandon M suggests the social contract between employees and employers has shifted, with a focus on inclusivity and personal responsibility.
• Gethin Nadin agrees, arguing that investing in people first can lead to a more profitable business in the long run.
• Gethin Nadin argues that modern successful businesses prioritize employee well-being and success, leading to increased profitability and success.
• Brandon M. questions the role of line managers in addressing personal issues of employees, suggesting that companies may need to redefine their corporate responsibility and operational practices.
• Workplace mental health and responsibility. 36:20
• Employers should prioritize employee well-being for better organizational results, regardless of personal responsibility.
• Work-life balance and employee well-being. 38:20
• Gethin Nadin suggests that people are re-evaluating their priorities during the pandemic, with many questioning the value of their jobs and prioritizing their mental health.
• He argues that the social contract between employers and employees has broken down, as people are no longer guaranteed financial stability and security in return for their hard work.
• Gethin Nadin highlights the importance of well-being in the workplace, citing research that shows employees want a commitment to well-being from their employer.
• Bethany encourages listeners to be more human at work, emphasizing the importance of building real connections and creating an environment where people want to be.
• Optimizing employees for better wellbeing and organizational output. 43:08
• Employers are often good at mitigating risk, but they should also invest in their employees' well-being to get them back to performing at their best.
• A financial services firm in Scotland gave an employee paid time off to deal with personal issues, and he returned to his job as a high-performing employee and eventually became a team manager.
• Gethin Nadin emphasizes the importance of optimizing employees, not just mitigating risk, to improve organizational output and societal impact.
• Research shows that improving employee wellbeing through recognition and support can lead to better relationships with children and more community-based activities in neighborhoods.
• Workplace wellness and employee support. 47:29
• Employers have the power to create a better work environment and support employees' well-being by offering benefits like mental health support, flexible work arrangements, and health insurance.
• The speaker argues that employers have a responsibility to invest in their employees' well-being and provide support, rather than leaving it up to the government or individual employees to handle on their own.
• Gethin Nadin shares his experience with caring for a loved one with Alzheimer's and the impact it has had on his wellbeing, highlighting the importance of empathy and kindness in the workplace.
• Brandon M expresses gratitude for the conversation and encourages listeners to subscribe or leave a comment, demonstrating the value of empathetic leadership in creating a supportive work environment.

In this episode we discuss: How do you build an organisation to compete with Google? We are joined by Omid Ashtari, ex-COO of Streebees and President of Citymapper.

We chat about the following with Omid: 

• How do you think about organisational structure? 
• How proactive should you be in anticipating organisational challenges? 
• What is the highest impact communication challenge you helped resolve? 
• How do you prevent drift from the customer as the company scales? 

References:

http://www.linkedin.com/in/ashtari

http://www.startuppragmatism.com

Biography: 

I have two decades of experience in tech and worked in sales, business development and strategy roles for Google across the Dublin, London and San Francisco office during his 7 years there. As the first international employee, I set up Foursquare in Europe as Managing Director. I subsequently joined Citymapper for 6 years as President running the non-engineering side of the business. I then joined Streetbees as COO running operations, international expansion, finance and legal. Throughout my career I have raised north of 100 million dollars of funding for businesses I have worked for.

I am an angel investor in more than 45 businesses and advise many of them in all manner of things including strategy, operations, business development, fundraises etc. I am also part of the Mayor of London's Business Advisory Board, and a Mentor at Seedcamp and Entrepreneur First.

I am also an aspiring writer for my blogs startuppragmatism.blog and thefullspectrum.blog.

Summary:

• Personal growth and evolution over 13 years. 0:05
• Brandon reflects on his past solo travels and how they relate to his current life.
• Brandon M reflects on his past self-absorption and lack of empathy, now prioritizing supporting others' success and empathy in personal and professional life.
• Brandon M recounts a 2011 incident where he carried a biscuit tin full of Canadian coins and sat next to a homeless person, now recognizing the importance of empathy and caring for others.
• Organizational structure and skills for a business. 4:09
• Bethany: People often create an org structure that prioritizes making their existing team happy, rather than starting fresh and building a structure that works for the business.
• Brandon M: Bethany suggests starting with a blank slate and building an org structure that works for the business, rather than trying to fit existing team members into a pre-existing structure.
• Bethany and Brandon M discuss the importance of defining the skills needed for a business to succeed, rather than simply morphing structures around people.
• They agree that it's better to have a flexible approach to organizational structure, recognizing that roles may evolve as the business grows and changes.
• Organizational design and hiring for a scaling startup. 9:57
• Brandon M. faced pushback on hiring 2 product marketing managers, but believes it was necessary for success in both self-serve subscribers and enterprise sales.
• Brandon M. emphasizes the importance of clear go-to-market strategy and collaboration between product marketing manager and go-to-market manager.
• Bethany identifies the need for a "thinker" in early-stage businesses to analyze and gather information, which is perceived as a luxury role but essential for product market fit and growth.
• Bethany highlights the importance of having a thinker and a strategic salesperson in a scaling organization, as they provide valuable insights and help navigate challenges.
• Bethany identifies signs of organizational design issues, including unhappiness, confusion, and a lack of managers or promotional opportunities, which can lead to restructuring.
• Organizational structure and scaling. 16:27
• Omid Ashtari discusses the importance of adapting organizational structure to the scale of the problem being solved, as the number of employees grows.
• Ashtari highlights the challenges that arise when an organization expands, such as natural breaking points and lines of communication, and the need to adjust operational systems accordingly.
• Communication and decision-making challenges in scaling startups. 18:37
• Omid Ashtari explains how companies can proactively address problems by embracing chaos and redesigning systems after hiring new employees.
• Omid Ashtari highlights the importance of clear communication and decision-making processes in startups, particularly in scaling businesses.
• He shares an example of a company experiencing success bias, where they lose humility and become less secure, leading to bottlenecks in decision-making and communication.
• Product-market fit and organizational structure for startups. 22:39
• Omid Ashtari highlights the importance of addressing user complaints and recalibrating employees' understanding of the product's performance in different cities.
• Citymapper encourages engineers and employees to travel to different cities for exploratory trips to better understand user needs and improve the product.
• Omid Ashtari discusses the importance of understanding customer needs and maintaining product-market fit in scaling startups.
• Hiring for various roles in a business, focusing on cognitive ability and adaptability. 26:49
• Omid Ashtari discusses the importance of hiring the right person for the job, particularly in scaling problems, where high roller related knowledge is crucial.
• Ashtari highlights the challenge of figuring out the business model for a problem like city mapper, where role related knowledge is less important than adaptability to the organization's synchronous ease.
• Omid Ashtari emphasizes the importance of hiring people with high cognitive flexibility and entrepreneurial mindset for a specific business unit within a company.
• He describes a cross-functional team structure where team members sit in different rooms and communicate ad hoc to solve problems quickly, with a central table for impromptu meetings.
• Scaling a transportation app company. 32:26
• Omid Ashtari emphasizes the importance of adapting to changing business needs by creating separate units with different operating systems to address specific problems.
• In Citymapper's case, the main focus was on retaining organic growth in London, with a myopic focus on product innovation and weekly updates to address user feedback.
• Omid Ashtari describes the challenges of scaling a transport app, including competing with Google Maps and Apple Maps, and the need for a sustainable business model.
• Ashtari highlights the importance of resilience and entrepreneurial spirit in overcoming these challenges, and the need for tooling to enable non-engineers to launch cities.
• Entrepreneurship, product market fit, and organizational design. 37:48
• Omid Ashtari emphasizes the importance of asking questions and reorganizing as needed in the face of uncertainty.
• Citymapper's team has adapted to changing needs by reassigning personnel and launching new initiatives like smart ride, a cab-based ride-sharing service.
• Omid Ashtari emphasizes the importance of being "confidently insecure" as an entrepreneur, constantly reassessing and adapting to changing circumstances.
• Bethany agrees, highlighting the need to be emotionally intelligent, flexible, and humble in the face of uncertainty and criticism.

In this episode we discuss: How do you scale from 100 employees to IPO? We are joined by Mark Logan, ex-COO of Skyscanner and currently Chief Entrepreneurial Advisor to the Scottish Government

We chat about the following with Mark: 

• What are the foundations of scale? 
• How do you prevent command and control from creeping in? 
• What goes wrong with organisational alignment over time? 
• Why doesn’t OKR cascading work? 
• What are the three golden processes of an organisation?
• Why do things break when you scale? What do you need to look out for? 
• What are the three golden processes of an organisation?
• How do you get the innovation process to work? 
• When does it make sense to go cross-functional across the organisation? 
• What is expected from a C-level role?

Biography: 

I have over 25 years' experience in highly successful startups and 1st-tier internet tech companies. I have been instrumental in the success of multiple award-winning start-ups, including Skyscanner, one of Europe's most successful tech companies, where I joined in 2012 to take on the general management of the business, culminating in a £1.5billion acquisition in 2016. 

My experience spans consumer internet economy startups, executive management, organisational development, change management, strategy development, contract negotiation and delivery, software development, growth science, sales and marketing , HR, large scale programme delivery and operations management, including lean agile techniques. 

Currently mainly focused on helping to nurture the start-up community in Scotland and the UK as an investor, non-executive director and advisor.

Summary: 

• Scaling a business from 100 employees to IPO with ex-Skyscanner CEO Mark Logan. 0:06
• Bethany: Investing in individual competence is essential for setting up employees for success within their roles.
• Brandon M: Mark Logan prioritized this by focusing on developing the skills of each employee at Skyscanner.
• Bethany highlights the importance of career development and line management effectiveness in retaining staff, rather than allocating budget to wellness programmes.
• Bethany suggests that companies need to carve out time and give permission for employees to think and learn at work, and celebrate their efforts to create a learning environment.
• Brandon M. shared his experience with OKRs, highlighting the importance of practical application and alignment with business strategy.
• Bethany agreed, emphasizing the need to balance structure with flexibility and contextual understanding, citing Nike as an example of a company that executes OKRs effectively.
• Resource allocation and technology adoption in business. 8:17
• Bethany highlights the challenge of resource allocation in product development, particularly when it comes to balancing the need for new technologies with the reality of limited resources.
• Bethany emphasizes the importance of having a clear understanding of how new technology will improve processes and outcomes before investing in it.
• Scaling organizations and maintaining agency. 11:03
• Bethany: Friend's security company has accidentally implemented decentralized decision-making, leading to no bottlenecks as they scale.
• Mark Logan: Foundation of scale is agency, as company grows, founders' urgency decreases, and staff takes over.
• Mark Logan: As company scales, agency of frontline staff drops rapidly, leading to productivity crisis.
• Bethany: How to keep agency alive as company grows? Contrast agency with autonomy, and define agency as consisting of basic competence and other factors.
• Restoring agency in organizations. 16:03
• Mark Logan emphasizes the importance of competency and ownership in a growing company, citing examples of incompetent leaders and lack of clear ownership boundaries.
• He uses the analogy of a book club to illustrate how founders should not assume that everyone is on the same page and should actively push ownership to the frontline.
• Mark Logan: Alignment issues can lead to loss of agency, where employees feel disconnected from the company's strategy and lack access to necessary resources.
• Mark Logan: Best practices for maintaining agency include regular check-ins, clear communication, and providing employees with the necessary tools and resources to do their jobs effectively.
• The challenges of implementing OKRs in a rapidly scaling organization. 21:00
• Mark Logan describes the evolution of his company's goal-setting process, from initial alignment to cascading objectives across teams, to eventually hiring a project manager for alignment.
• The company realized that the goal-setting process had become cumbersome and was hindering progress, leading to the creation of a new role to manage alignment.
• Mark Logan and Bethany discuss the challenges of scaling OKRs (Objectives and Key Results) in businesses, particularly in terms of losing alignment and control as companies grow.
• They believe that the solution lies in enabling and influencing employees, rather than controlling them, and that this approach should be reflected in the contract between managers and employees.
• Organizational structure and innovation. 26:20
• Mark Logan argues that neglecting certain aspects of agency can lead to poor management and creation of barriers within an organization.
• He suggests that over-reliance on functional hierarchies can hinder the implementation of key business processes such as customer acquisition and maintenance.
• Mark Logan: Functional hierarchy can hinder innovation, as it creates walls and silos that slow down scaling.
• Brandon M: Innovation needs wiggle room and clashing of different skill sets, which can be encouraged through informal relationships.
• T-shaped skills, hybrid working, and team collaboration. 31:12
• Mark Logan emphasizes the importance of T-shaped skills in a fast-growing startup, where individuals should have a deep specialism and adjacent knowledge to innovate holistically.
• Bethany and Brandon discuss how to enable individuals to gather and make an innovation difference, with Bethany highlighting the need for informal collaboration and Brandon focusing on the importance of encouraging T-shaped skills.
• Brandon M suggests creating hybrid teams with diverse skills to foster innovation and collaboration.
• Mark Logan advocates for embracing the squads and tribes model in organizations to promote ownership and productivity.
• Implementing cross-functional teams and tribes in a business. 36:37
• Mark Logan emphasizes the importance of cross-functional collaboration in product development, citing Skyscanner's success with squads and tribes.
• Mark Logan explains how Skyscanner's product engineering efforts evolved to better serve diverse international markets by creating growth tribes with local engineers, commercial people, and marketing teams.
• This approach led to improved performance in markets like South Korea, with a 300% increase in performance, as the team was able to adapt the product to the local business case and handle code bases more effectively.
• Transforming organizations for success. 40:59
• Mark Logan emphasizes the importance of taking a thoughtful and structured approach to organizational change, rather than simply implementing new processes or structures without proper enablement and support.
• Bethany agrees, highlighting the need for CEOs to be transformational and think about how to make things dramatically better, rather than just focusing on incremental improvement.
• Mark Logan emphasizes the importance of optimizing for agency in organizational change.

In this episode we discuss: What can VC and PE backed operators learn from each other? We are joined by Sam Smith, the founder & MD of PepTalks, a training provider for private equity backed CEOs and their management teams.

We chat about the following with Sam: 

• What are the types of PE companies? 
• How are company valuations determined? 
• How does the commercial model work between PE companies and LP’s? 
• Can you shift track and move from VC-backed to PE-backed? 
• How does a PE firm structure funds when they invest in an organisation?
• How does that structure impact the ability for the management team to make money?  
• How do share options work in VC-backed companies? 
• What happens to the management team's equity when a second PE company buys the company? 
• What does a successful COO look like in PE-backed companies? How does that contrast versus VC-backed? 
•  How do VC-backed companies successfully ramp up headcount so quickly? 
• How do you engage and motivate employees in PE-backed companies versus VC-backed? 

References

• Sam Smith
• PepTalks

Biography: 

Sam Smith is the founder of PepTalks, a peer to peer training provider for private equity backed CEOs and Management teams. Founder of Marble Hill Partners an exec search and interim management consultancy which was sold to Henley Insights Group in September 2021.

Summary: 

• Career relevance and identity after unexpected death. 0:05
• Bethany struggles with processing unexpected death of a friend, leading to a difficult weekend.
• Bethany and Brandon discuss feeling less relevant in their careers as they age, with millennials taking over management positions.
• Identity, ambition, and financial freedom. 3:35
• Bethany: Realized identity wasn't tied to work after leaving peak role, causing discomfort & self-reflection.
• Brandon: Ambiguity of mattering in work life vs. personal identity, with age & finite time, leads to essential questions.
• Bethany and Brandon discuss the importance of financial freedom and its impact on their lives, including the ability to think long-term and prioritize personal growth.
• Brandon highlights the importance of allocating time for networking and learning, even when not directly relevant to work, to maintain personal direction and growth.
• Entrepreneurship, private equity, and networking. 9:02
• Bethany and Brandon discuss networking and success in business with Sam Smith of pep talks.
• Private equity fundraising and investment strategies. 11:07
• Sam Smith explains the commercial models of private equity, including the need for return on investment and the importance of valuation based on EBITDA multiples.
• Bethany asks about the recurring revenue of a 20-500 million enterprise value business, and Sam provides examples of private equity funds for different transaction sizes.
• Sam Smith outlines a plan to raise £500 million for a private equity fund, highlighting the importance of having a clear investment strategy and track record of success.
• The fund aims to secure commitments from 20-30 institutional investors, with the remaining £450 million coming from the general partners' own pockets.
• Private equity investing and expectations. 16:12
• Sam Smith and Bethany plan to manage a private equity fund for 10 years, investing and returning money to investors over that time.
• The fund will have a lifecycle of 11 years, with 3-5 exits within the first 5 years, and then raising another fund in transition.
• Brandon: Has seen venture-backed companies transition to private equity ownership, but rare due to cash generation and profitability requirements.
• Sam Smith: Private equity investors expect at least a two times return, unlike venture capital which takes a higher risk for potential astronomical returns.
• Private equity investing and debt structures. 20:41
• Management teams in private equity firms can make significant sums of money if they deliver growth and meet targets, while VC firms have a higher risk of failure and lower potential returns.
• Sam Smith discusses raising £500 million for private equity deals, with £40 million going to banks or debt funds and £59 million structured as a loan note with compounding interest.
• Smith explains the importance of capturing senior debt and structuring loan notes to minimize interest payments and maximize returns.
• Private equity investment and returns. 25:33
• Sam Smith explains how private equity firms structure deals to incentivize management teams, typically offering a sliver of equity worth 10-20% of the total valuation.
• Four years later, the business has grown EBITDA, improved its multiple, and paid down some senior debt, increasing the valuation to 170 million.
• Sam Smith explains how private equity firms can generate returns through investments, highlighting the importance of valuation and cash generation.
• Brandon expresses interest in joining private equity, but Sam cautions that returns may not be stellar and management equity may erode in value.
• VC-backed business growth strategies and employee incentives. 29:37
• VC-backed businesses prioritize market creation and share options for management teams.
• Bethany explains that employee stock options are typically structured as a percentage of salary with a vesting schedule, and employees must exercise their options within 90 days of leaving the company to avoid paying the strike price.
• The strike price varies depending on the set of shares or option grant, and employees must decide whether to hold onto their shares or pay the strike price as part of the sale.
• Private equity investing and leadership. 33:34
• Bethany and Sam Smith discuss the importance of vesting for management teams in private equity deals, with Bethany highlighting the need for incentives and Sam Smith explaining the benefits of rolling equity into subsequent transactions.
• NewVoiceMedia raised money every year, with a focus on deploying and returning funds in a 3-5 year cadence.
• Bethany: Valuation increases with each funding round, providing opportunities for early investors to cash out or continue investing.
• Sam Smith: Private equity firms look for entrepreneurial leadership teams with strategic strength and psychological resilience to drive growth and capture market share.
• Private equity talent acquisition and growth strategies. 38:51
• Sam Smith emphasizes the importance of operational expertise in CEO candidates for a mid-market company.
• Private equity firms often overlook experienced VC executives as potential hires due to cultural fit concerns.
• Private equity firms prioritize hiring experienced executives for faster growth.
• Talent acquisition and onboarding in private equity firms. 44:33
• CEO emphasizes importance of talent acquisition and onboarding to ensure aligned focus on value creation.
• Entrepreneurship, strategy, and talent acquisition. 46:06
• Venture businesses struggle with identifying and sticking to focus due to market disruption and entrepreneurial excitement.
• Bethany and Sam discuss talent acquisition strategies for scaling startups, including building a talent team, leveraging referrals, and preparing managers for growing teams.
• Setting up new managers for success. 49:18
• Brandon emphasizes the importance of effective line management to ensure new hires are set up for success.
• HR strategies for scaling businesses. 50:30
• Bethany emphasizes the importance of investing in L&D and people analytics to improve manager performance and DEI.
• Sam Smith notes that venture-backed businesses are stronger in HR function, with a focus on people strategy and organisational design.
• Incentivizing and engaging employees in private equity-backed companies. 52:46
• Brandon emphasizes the importance of efficiency in talent acquisition and onboarding, highlighting the need to balance rigor and speed to ensure the right candidates are hired.
• Sam Smith and Bethany discuss the value of analytics in private equity, particularly in understanding employee dynamics and incentivizing employees in PE-backed companies.
• Brandon: How do PE-backed companies incentivize talent? Sam Smith: Use a similar model to engage employees, educate them on PE ownership, and create a sense of purpose.
• Sam Smith: Private equity vocabulary can lose engagement quickly, so use language that resonates with employees and emphasizes the business's impact on society and community.
• Sam Smith emphasizes the importance of purpose and emotional engagement in business, citing private equity's focus on incentivizing and equity for management teams and employees.
• Sam believes private equity should expand their talent pool beyond traditional sources, including the venture world, to uncover great talent.

In this episode we answer the question: How do you build a business that is smarter than you? Our guest is Jennifer Sundberg, the co-CEO of Board Intelligence and author of Collective Intelligence.

We discuss the following with Jennifer: 

• Why is it so hard to get great conversations in business review meetings? 
• How do you get good at asking the right questions? 
• How do you develop the habit of asking good questions in the organisation? 
• How do you create phenomenal meetings? 
• How do you cut through obfuscation of underperformance when it comes to KPI’s? 
• What are the two types of conversations in management meetings? 
• Are written documents the elixir for creating better meetings? 

References

• The Collective Intelligence Book

Biography: 

Jennifer is the founder and co-CEO of Board Intelligence, a mission-led technology firm that helps transform boards and leadership teams into a powerful driver of performance and a force for good.

Jennifer has won numerous awards, including EY Entrepreneur of the Year for London & South East and The Times Young Business Woman of the Year, and has held regular columns with Management Today and the Financial Times.

Together with co-CEO Pippa Begg, Jennifer has authored a book published in November 2023, titled ‘Collective intelligence: How to build a business that’s smarter than you are’.

Summary: 

• Using electric currents for beauty. 0:05
• Bethany Ayers discusses her concerns about her appearance, particularly the jowls and lower face area, and how she has been using microcurrent therapy to address these issues.
• Brandon Mensa responds to Bethany's concerns and provides his own thoughts on the topic, including his belief that face exercise is important for maintaining a youthful appearance.
• Bethany discusses her use of electric currents on her face to reduce the appearance of jowls and improve her appearance, despite being a feminist who questions the societal pressure to conform to beauty standards.
• Bethany mentions the zip Halo, a product she uses for its anti-acne and nano current features, which she believes have helped reduce her breakouts and improve the appearance of her skin.
• Effective questioning and meeting strategies. 5:20
• Bethany highlights the importance of asking simple and open-ended questions that encourage critical thinking and problem-solving, rather than complex and leading questions that can limit the conversation.
• Brandon shares how he has shifted from a more directive and challenging approach to a more curious and why-focused line of questioning, which has led to better results in his conversations.
• Bethany prefers meetings with a clear purpose and aligned attendees, avoiding unnecessary or unproductive gatherings.
• Bethany suggests opening meetings with a clear agenda and checking alignment among attendees to maximize productivity.
• Effective meeting practices and pre-reads. 9:52
• Bethany and Brandon discuss the importance of periodically reviewing the purpose and format of meetings to ensure they remain useful and productive.
• Preparing pre-read materials for substantial topics to be debated in leadership meetings can help align everyone and lead to better decisions.
• Bethany highlights the importance of clarity in pre reads, emphasizing that without it, people may interpret the document differently and have a harder time having a productive conversation.
• Brandon agrees and adds that pre reads can be used for more than just making a decision, such as for awareness or understanding the background of a topic.
• Improving board meeting quality through skills development. 14:11
• Jennifer Sundberg highlights the importance of critical thinking, communication, and focus on what matters most in board information.
• She emphasizes that these skills are not unique to boards and have far-reaching implications for management teams and organizations as a whole.
• Asking the right questions in a structured manner. 16:21
• Bethany and Jennifer discuss the importance of asking the right questions in a framework, with Bethany sharing her experience of iteratively refining questions over time.
• Jennifer Sundberg suggests using a set of pre-defined questions, called QDs, to help employees think critically and structure their thoughts before writing a report or presentation.
• She recommends limiting the number of major questions to 5-7 to maintain clarity and avoid overwhelming the receiver with too much information.
• Improving performance reports by asking simple yet effective questions. 19:25
• Jennifer Sundberg highlights the importance of addressing the "so what" question in performance reports, as it helps to identify the risks and opportunities on the horizon.
• Bethany shares her experience of working with teams who struggle to provide meaningful commentary on data visualizations, despite the importance of contextualizing the information.
• Jennifer Sundberg shares a story about EasyJet's CEO Carolyn McCall, who prioritized employee well-being by asking "how do our people feel?" in every meeting and report, shifting the organization's focus to people and ultimately improving profits.
• Effective questioning in meetings and leadership. 23:37
• Jennifer Sundberg emphasizes the importance of asking the right questions in meetings to ensure accountability and precision.
• She suggests using a software platform or knowledge management system to cascade questions across the organization and update them easily.
• Jennifer Sundberg emphasizes the importance of asking questions in meetings to encourage open conversations and address underperformance.
• Bethany raises concerns about politics and lack of clarity in meetings, and suggests addressing cultural issues to facilitate open communication.
• Leadership meetings and their differences. 29:01
• Brandon observes that a casual coffee chat with colleagues leads to more open and organic discussions, resulting in valuable insights and revelations.
• Jennifer suggests grouping agenda items into steering and supervisory categories, with separate meetings to accommodate different modes of thinking and responsibilities.
• Effective communication through visual aids and self-explanatory reports. 31:42
• Bethany raises an issue with the assumption that reports must be written in prose, citing her own dyslexia and preference for visual aids.
• Jennifer agrees, emphasizing the importance of preparing self-explanatory materials that can stand on their own without a verbal narrative to support them.
• Jennifer Sundberg emphasizes the importance of critical thinking in report production, suggesting that the process of creating these documents can lead to valuable insights and improved outcomes.

In this episode we unpack the topic of: Why is hybrid working an inclusivity issue?. We talked with Brian Elliott, he is the co-founder of Future Forum, author of the bestseller How the Future Works: Leading Flexible Teams to do the Best Work of Their Lives 

We then discuss the following with Brian: 

• What does the data say on return to work and the push back from employees? 
• What is the connection between inclusivity and remote working? 
• What do you do when the CEO blames missed targets on remote working? 
• Is Thursday the new Friday? 
• Why is there resistance to remote working from senior execs? 
• What are the right policies or tactics one can take? 
• How do you make Zoom-based team calls effective? 
• Do mandated days make sense for hybrid? 

References

• Hybrid work: Making it fit with your diversity, equity, and inclusion strategy
• Follow Brian on LinkedIn
• How the Future Works: Leading Flexible Teams to do the Best Work of Their Lives
• Future Forum

Biography: 

Brian Elliott is a seasoned executive turned leadership advisor and speaker. He's the co-founder of Future Forum, author of the bestseller How the Future Works: Leading Flexible Teams to do the Best Work of Their Lives and one of Forbes’ Future of Work 50. Brian’s work enables leaders to build a future of work that’s better for people and organizations.

Prior to Future Forum, Brian spent 25 years building and leading teams and companies as a startup CEO, and as an executive at Google and Slack. Brian got his MBA from Harvard Business School and BA at Northwestern and started his career at Boston Consulting Group, where he’s now a Senior Advisor. 

Brian is also the proud dad of two young men and one middle-aged dog. You can find Brian on LinkedIn.

Summary: 

• Hybrid working and inclusion issues. 0:05
• Bethany discusses the challenges of hybrid working versus remote working, particularly for women dealing with intersectional issues such as discrimination and microaggressions.
• Bethany shares her personal experience of lounging in bed doing crossword puzzles while working from home, highlighting the importance of work-life balance and personal preferences.
• Bethany believes hybrid working and remote working are inclusion issues due to the disproportionate burden of child and elder care on women.
• Microaggressions and lack of privacy in the workplace make it difficult for women to consistently attend in-office days, despite inclusive work environments.
• Hybrid work and its impact on gender and privacy. 6:12
• Brandon M highlights the disproportionate impact of hybrid work policies on women, particularly in childcare and eldercare responsibilities.
• Bethany agrees, emphasizing the need for privacy and inclusivity in addressing health issues, suggesting that employees should not be required to share personal medical information with managers.
• Bethany and Brandon discuss the future of work with Brian Elliot, co-founder of the Future Forum and author of "How the Future Works," focusing on hybrid working and the importance of trust and connection in the new work environment.
• Brian shares his insights on the challenges and opportunities of hybrid working, including the need for leaders to adapt and learn how to manage and lead in a new way, and the importance of making connections and meeting people outside of work.
• Remote work and its future in the workplace. 11:45
• Brian Elliott agrees with Bethany's hypothesis that hybrid working is here to stay, and people will choose to leave jobs that don't offer flexible work arrangements.
• Brian provides data from various sources, including his own research with Future Forum, to support the idea that more companies are adopting flexible work policies and fewer people are returning to the office.
• Remote work and inclusivity in the workplace. 14:21
• Brian Elliott: Companies are now open to hiring remote workers, leading to more distributed teams and a need for new management techniques.
• Bethany: Inclusivity is key in hybrid work environments, with flexibility desired by historically marginalized groups.
• Brian Elliott: 59% of working moms want to work from office 2 days a week or less, strongest in US and UK.
• Data shows that people across race and ethnic boundaries prefer working from home, with greater flexibility for neurodiversity and disability.
• Remote work, productivity, and culture in the workplace. 19:12
• Brian Elliott highlights the importance of focusing on outcomes rather than visual signs of activity, such as showing up to the office.
• Brandon M. addresses concerns from a CEO perspective, suggesting that instead of attributing working from home as the culprit for missed targets, the focus should be on building systems that reward people based on outcomes.
• Hybrid work and trust in leadership. 22:07
• Brian Elliott suggests that CEOs should participate in digital tools and social conversations to build deeper connections with their teams and understand their emotional perspective.
• Brian also shares that a flexible work policy can help build trust between employees and management, leading to increased motivation and productivity.
• Bethany and Brian discuss the resistance to hybrid working, with Bethany identifying two elements: fear of control and fear of not being able to see people.
• Brian suggests that senior leaders can use their own experiences to lead effectively in a new world, by having others around the table who live different lives.
• In a group of chief financial officers, one member speaks up about the challenges of balancing work and family responsibilities, highlighting the need for empathy and understanding.
• Work-life balance and inclusivity in a hybrid work setup. 28:19
• Brian Elliott emphasizes the importance of representation and coaching in a hybrid work format to unlock potential and improve communication.
• Brian recommends policies such as flexibility, short form video, and interactive communication to encourage inclusivity and bolster message delivery.
• Brian Elliott highlights the importance of creating a level playing field in hybrid meetings by setting rules and encouraging equal participation, such as using one laptop per person and keeping virtual meetings virtual.
• Slack's approach to hybrid meetings involves disassembling the traditional C suite floor and giving executives offices in different locations to avoid power dynamics and create a level playing field for all participants.
• Remote work, meetings, and communication. 32:29
• Brian Elliott suggests using asynchronous communication tools like Slack or Teams to address immediate work-related issues instead of relying on 30-minute video calls.
• Brian Elliott recommends blending asynchronous and synchronous communication to improve productivity in hybrid teams.
• Effective communication strategies for distributed teams. 35:18
• Brian Elliott suggests using pre-reads to compress presentation time and increase engagement (35:18)
• Brandon M. notes that in a hybrid Zoom setting, leaders may struggle to maintain engagement due to multitasking or disengagement (36:37)
• Brian Elliott emphasizes the importance of internal communications in distributed teams, citing the example of Atkins, Slack's head of internal comms, who was "amazing" at building culture and connection.
• Brian recommends hiring an internal comms person to help ensure key messages are absorbed and understood, especially in large companies with multiple leaders and employees who may not be on the same page.
• Hybrid work arrangements and their impact on teams and inclusivity. 40:19
• Brian Elliott believes hybrid working agreements are more effective than top-down fixed mandates in large organizations due to the varying needs across different functions and locations.
• Bethany agrees and adds that inclusivity is also a factor, as some employees may have medical conditions that make certain days of the week difficult to work.
• Brian Elliott emphasizes the importance of flexibility and belonging in the workplace, and provides strategies for managers to coach and grow their team members.
• He argues that managers need to be good coaches and help employees grow in their careers, rather than just focusing on attendance and productivity.

In this episode we unpack the topic of: What is it like being COO of a private equity backed business? We are joined by Pete Harris, COO of Pipedrive. 

Bethany and I discuss:

• When are we at our best? Our worst? 
• What are we passionate about in a business context?
• What is our why? 

We then discuss the following with Pete: 

• Why the title COO versus CRO or CCO? 
• How are you being evaluated by your PE investors? 
• How do you motivate employees given you are not founder led? 
• What does a board meeting look like in PE backed companies?
• What is the approach to compensation in a PE backed company? 
• What is your why? 

References

• Pipedrive 
• Simon Sinek - TED Talk on ’Start with Why’ 

Biography: 

As Chief Operating Officer for Pipedrive I am responsible for a broad range of value creation activities, including business strategy, execution, and Pipedrive’s approach to global markets - determining which markets we are in, why and associated investments. I work closely with our Board from Vista Equity Partners and Bessemer Partners. 

Previously I led Global Business Development and Global Partnership team at Intuit - supporting our customers across the US, UK, Australia, France, Brazil, Mexico and our expansion markets. I also spent 12 years at Deloitte with roles including risk consulting in Financial Services, UK Innovation Lead and UK Ventures Lead. The latter involved managing a £25m fund to invest in external start-ups but also internally in those ideas that might change Deloitte from within.

Summary: 

• Lung health and private equity CEO experience. 0:06
• Bethany Ayers discusses her experience with chest X rays and doctors' appointments after being diagnosed with COVID-19.
• Brandon Mensa shares a story from his time at SwiftKey about ignoring chest discomfort and eventually getting an X ray after realizing it wasn't going away.
• Brandon M experienced a spontaneous pneumothorax, where one of his lungs collapsed into his chest cavity, and was pumped back up with a tube inserted through his clavicle.
• The medical team used a rudimentary method to insert the tube into Brandon's lung, and he was able to recover quickly.
• Brandon and Bethany discuss the concept of "Y" or starting with why, as discussed by Simon Sinek, and how it relates to their discussion on the purpose of the company and its impact on the organization.
• Leadership, passions, and personal growth. 5:53
• Bethany: feeling inauthentic or unwilling to express views can be at worst, hating having to do that.
• Brandon M: tiredness can make him less present and less effective in leadership roles.
• Bethany passionately advocates for gender equality and personal growth, reflecting on death and regret.
• Unlocking potential and creating a fulfilling life. 10:27
• Brandon M recognizes immense potential in individuals, both personally and professionally, and finds it exciting to work with companies to unlock this potential.
• He believes that exercising these muscles through activities like acting helps him understand the human experience and apply it to his work in companies.
• Brandon M: Why? To help teams fulfill their potential.
• Bethany: Why? To create a fun life and inspire others.
• Leadership roles and AI initiatives at Pipedrive. 15:32
• Pete Harris oversees sales, partner, customer success, and customer support teams at Pipedrive, while also leading AI initiatives.
• Pete Harris discusses his role as CEO of Pipedrive, focusing on AI initiatives and commercial growth.
• CEO role, value creation, and long-term growth. 18:45
• Pete Harris, CEO of Pipedrive, focuses on value creation plan to deliver success, with key metrics including net revenue retention and churn numbers.
• PE investors evaluate Pete's success through delivery of value creation plan outcomes, with specific focus on revenue and retention numbers.
• Entrepreneurs often prioritize short-term growth over long-term sustainability in their business strategies.
• Growth vs margin in private equity investing. 22:32
• Panelists debate whether growth or margin is more valuable in today's private equity market.
• Pete Harris emphasizes the importance of balancing growth rate and margin in business, citing the "rule of 40" as a benchmark for success.
• Bethany asks Pete if he still follows the "rule of 40" in private equity, and Pete confirms that it is still relevant and important for their business strategy.
• Leadership, culture, and motivation in a 1000-person business. 26:47
• Pete Harris: Founder lead plays a role in a company's culture and values, even after they leave. Holding on to that legacy can attract top talent and be a unique selling point.
• Bethany: Charismatic leaders, whether founders or not, can play a significant role in shaping a company's culture and values.
• Pete Harris emphasizes the importance of understanding one's "why" and purpose in work, citing it as a key factor in motivation and job satisfaction.
• Harris believes that founders can play a significant role in shaping a company's culture and values, but acknowledges that not all founders are equipped to lead a business through its entire lifecycle.
• Leadership, purpose, and private equity involvement in a business. 32:36
• Brandon M emphasizes the importance of purpose and charismatic leadership in a company, citing it as a motivating factor for himself and others.
• Pete Harris agrees, highlighting the need for alignment between personal purpose, mission, and what the business is doing. He believes that being a charismatic leader without being the founder is crucial for scaling up a company.
• Harris also stresses the importance of authenticity in conveying the company's purpose and mission to employees and stakeholders.
• Pete Harris describes the experience of working with a private equity (PE) firm, emphasizing the importance of confidence and alignment on the company's goals.
• The PE firm has a formal agenda for board meetings, which can go in unexpected directions, focusing on metrics and growth.
• Bethany asks about the frequency and rehearsal process of these meetings, with Pete Harris highlighting the importance of preparation and alignment as a team.
• Board meetings and investor dynamics in a startup. 38:45
• Bethany highlights the value of board meetings for VC-backed startups, where investors provide strategic support and challenge.
• Board dynamics, compensation, and talent attraction in a PE-backed company. 40:31
• Brandon M. emphasizes the importance of confidence in the founder and leadership team for the board to effectively contribute to the business.
• Pete Harris highlights the value of having operating partners and investment partners on the board, bringing different perspectives and expertise to the table.
• Pete Harris emphasizes the importance of attracting the right talent in a PE firm, with compensation being a key factor in doing so.
• Brandon M asks about the approach to compensation in a PE company, with options being a common incentive for top management.
• Career development and personal purpose. 45:11
• Pete Harris emphasizes the importance of understanding one's "why" and mapping it out to achieve success in their career.
• Harris recommends using a blank sheet of paper to draw a "circle of why" to identify one's purpose and goals.
• Pete Harris believes that understanding one's "why" can serve as a navigation system for both career and life decisions.
• Harris encourages others to identify their "why" and use it as a guide for making decisions and setting goals, even in unrelated areas like volunteering or hobbies.
• Pete Harris suggests asking "What's your why?" to uncover personal motivations and values, and using those insights to make decisions without regret.
• Bethany struggles with understanding her "why" and seeks help from Pete, who encourages her to imagine her deathbed regrets and apply her values to decision-making.

In this episode we unpack the topic of: Do product leaders make good COO's? with Martyn Fagg, COO of Tillo and Matt Jones COO at ex-COO at ParentPay. 

Bethany and I discuss the following: 

• What does a good product leader look like? 
• What does a good product manager look like? 

We then discuss the following with Martyn and Matt: 

• How did the transition to COO happen?
• Was picking up the people function challenging? 
• How do you get the people function to be more data-driven? 
• How do you get product development and commercial to learn from each other? 
• What product development KPI should be included in the company dashboard?

References

• The Speed of Trust: The One Thing that Changes Everything 
• The Four Foundations of SaaS 

Biography: 

Martyn Fagg is a seasoned CTO with 20 years experience in software engineering and fintech leadership - passionate about fostering innovation, collaboration, and continuous learning. Currently COO at Tillo, a B2B embedded rewards & incentives platform working with some of the world’s top brands to deliver real-time digital gift & prepaid cards.

Matt Jones recently served as the Group Chief Operating Officer at ParentPay, a leading provider of payments and MIS solutions for schools in the UK and Europe. He joined the company in 2017 and initially held responsibility for Product Management, Software Engineering, IT, Service Operations, Customer Implementation, and Customer Support across several early Group businesses (ParentPay, Schoolcomms, Cypad, WIS, and nimbl). Additionally, Matt oversaw the group Security function, ensuring the protection of the company's and customers' data assets.

Prior to his tenure at ParentPay, Matt briefly served as COO at IRIS Software. He also spent six years as Senior Vice President of DevOps at NewVoiceMedia (acquired by Vonage) and held previous roles at Mimecast and MessageLabs (acquired by Symantec).

Summary: 

• Product development in CEO role with Twilio and Parent Pay leaders. 0:06
• Brandon and Bethany discuss their cultural heritage for a school event, with Brandon dressing as a tech bro from Silicon Valley and Bethany dressing as a Canadian with a hockey jersey and maple syrup.
• The hosts joke about stereotypes and cultural representations, with Brandon accidentally saying "boot" instead of "boot" and Bethany pointing it out.
• Brandon M. questions the importance of good product leadership, emphasizing the need for a clear product vision and strategy, as well as effective team building.
• Martin Fag, Matt Jones, and Brandon M. discuss the role of product development in the CEO role, with a focus on product leadership, strategy, and team building.
• Product leadership and CEO roles in tech companies. 4:50
• The CEO and product leader roles require different skills and perspectives, with the CEO focusing on the overall vision and strategy, and the product leader translating that vision into a tangible product.
• The product leader must be empowered to take ownership of the vision and make it a reality, while the CEO can evolve their role to focus on other aspects of the business.
• CEO and product leader have different visions for product strategy, leading to potential conflicts.
• Product management and leadership. 8:51
• Brandon M highlights the importance of product managers understanding users, market dynamics, and stakeholder management to ensure a product's success.
• Bethany agrees, noting that product managers often focus too much on technical details and not enough on validating with customers and stakeholders.
• Brandon M discusses Marty Kagan's philosophy of product development, emphasizing the importance of empowered teams with autonomy, resources, and scope to solve problem areas.
• Bethany agrees and adds that being given a problem to solve, rather than features to build, is crucial for product development teams to make a difference.
• Product management and CEO roles. 13:39
• Bethany and Brandon discuss the role of a good product person and CEO, with Bethany highlighting the importance of being able to pull oneself up and out of the weeds.
• Martin fell into the role of CEO as an opportunity after growing the company from six to 50 people and wanting a new challenge.
• Career progression from CTO to CEO. 16:12
• Matt Jones describes adaptability and willingness to take on new roles as key to his success as CEO.
• Leadership roles and responsibilities. 17:38
• Bethany shares her experience of being the only woman in a male-dominated leadership team and feeling like she's often overlooked or undervalued.
• Leadership roles and responsibilities. 18:56
• Martin, a former software developer and CTO, now CRO, has been managing people for 15 years and enjoys the people side of things, working closely with Briney, VP of people.
• Martin took on the people function as CRO, bringing a unique perspective as he has the largest proportion of the company reporting into him, and he works closely with the executive team to bring a commercial and business perspective.
• Managing people and teams in a cross-functional environment. 21:53
• Matt Jones highlights the importance of managing people as individuals, not just roles, in a cross-functional organization.
• Using data to inform people policies in a business setting. 23:18
• Matt Jones and Bethany discuss the importance of data in people policies, with Matt agreeing that data can provide insights into people's performance and wellbeing, while Bethany struggles with getting people teams to own and use accurate data.
• Both Matt and Bethany agree that there needs to be a clear owner of people data, such as a business ops team, to ensure accuracy and better decision-making.
• Data governance, culture, and retrospectives in a company. 26:22
• Martin emphasizes the importance of data-driven decision making in people operations, with a focus on employee happiness and retention rates.
• Brandon and Martin discuss the importance of collaboration and continuous learning within the product development team, with a focus on embedding retros and learning outside of product.
• Martin highlights the need for a champion within the team to drive initiatives and ensure ongoing adoption, with regular check-ins and feedback to gauge effectiveness.
• Using "5 Whys" to identify root causes of problems in business. 30:05
• Matt Jones shares his experience with using retrospectives to drive improvement in teams, emphasizing the importance of psychological safety and a simple five whys process.
• He faces challenges in implementing retrospectives across different functions and cultures, citing a lack of buy-in and psychological safety.
• Product-dev collaboration, agile methodologies, and software engineering. 32:19
• Bethany and Martin discuss the challenge of different departments within a company not sharing knowledge and resources, despite being in the same industry.
• Martin and Matt discuss the challenges of measuring productivity in software development, with a focus on the differences between short-term and long-term goals, and the need to prioritize creativity and outcomes over process productivity.
• Matt argues that software engineering is a creative undertaking, and that agile methodologies can help align development with personalities and produce better outputs by focusing on outcomes rather than in-process productivity.
• OKRs, product development metrics, and trust in the CFO-CEO relationship. 36:11
• Brandon M suggests cross-functional OKR teams can foster cross-pollination and inspire company-wide collaboration.
• Martin agrees on the importance of measuring developer productivity, citing deployment frequency and ticket turnaround time as key indicators.
• Martin emphasizes the importance of security and stability in a business, while Matt Jones stresses the need for speed and delegation of authority to achieve autonomy and purpose.
• Martin emphasizes the importance of transparency and earning trust from the CEO, citing his experience working with a founder who is hesitant to let go of their baby.
• Matt Jones highlights the need for a mature and open relationship between the CEO and CFO, allowing for flexibility and adaptability in navigating challenges.

In this episode we unpack the topic of: How do you tame a visionary CEO? with Rob Liddiard, B2B SaaS Founder (acquired 2022); Reformed Lawyer.

Bethany and I discuss the following: 

• Forecasting in 2024
• Simplifying performance management
• Surfacing issues in leadership
• Documenting the processes of the company

We then discuss the following with Rob: 

• Is the Entrepreneurial Operating System (EOS) just another OKR styled book? 
• How do you tame a visionary founder? 
• What are the components of EOS? 
• What are the two principal roles in EOS? 
• What can experienced operators learn from EOS? 
• How do you achieve an L10 meeting? 

References

https://www.eosworldwide.com/rob-liddiard

Biography: 

I previously founded a software company called Yapster. Although we had 100,000 licensed users, amazing customers like Next plc, Brewdog, Krispy Kreme and Caffe Nero and the business looked healthy to outsiders, we secretly struggled internally to execute plans and hit our financial goals. I worked and stressed 24/7. I was a qualified Corporate Lawyer and experienced Businessperson, but I didn’t feel a success. All I could feel was the underlying tension in my leadership team and investor base.

Then I read Gino Wickman’s Traction and it was like someone turned a light on. I realised that I hadn’t been leading my organisation to its potential. By adopting EOS’s simple habits and frameworks we quickly achieved Traction. Suddenly I was more successful at work and more relaxed at home.

In late 2022 I sold Yapster to a company backed by Google. I’ve since qualified as a Professional EOS Implementer® and now my personal Mission is to help other UK business owners achieve their goals more quickly, with less frustration.

Summary: 

• Golf inclusivity and personal experiences with the sport. 0:06
• Bethany Ayers and Brandon Mensa discuss golf and inclusion with guest Rob, with Ayers sharing her experience at a virtual driving range and appreciating Rob's proactive approach to inclusivity.
• Bethany Ayers shares personal experiences with golf and her grandfather's intense passion for the sport, despite exclusion of women in the family.
• Entrepreneurial operating system and vision alignment. 4:18
• Brandon: Book provides a prescriptive set of steps for non-experienced companies to run their businesses efficiently.
• Bethany: Book offers a structure for strategy days, with exercises and time allocations for each area, saving time and effort.
• Bethany Ayers discusses the importance of aligning to a vision and creating a three-year plan, with regular revisions to ensure accountability and profitability.
• Ayers highlights the challenges of budgeting in a changing world where cash is no longer free, and the need to focus on cache management across multiple years.
• Simplifying performance management systems. 10:21
• Brandon and Bethany agree that the "right people in the right seats" framework is simple and effective in evaluating employee performance (10 words)
• Traction recommends using a scorecard and weekly pulse to track leading indicators of KPIs (20 words)
• Bethany Ayers emphasizes the importance of tracking key metrics, such as ticket clearance times and pipe Gen, to identify and address issues in a timely manner.
• She believes that having a weekly scorecard with 5-10 metrics can help the team stay disciplined and proactive in addressing problems, leading to better customer experiences and overall success.
• Leadership, processes, and accountability in a business setting. 15:09
• Bethany Ayers highlights the importance of understanding the interconnectedness of different functions within a company, and how this knowledge can help resolve issues more effectively.
• Brandon emphasizes the value of documenting processes between functions to avoid siloed thinking and improve collaboration.
• Brandon and Bethany discuss the book "Traction" by Gabriel Weinberg, which emphasizes the importance of meetings for accountability and using OKRs (Objectives and Key Results) to set goals.
• Rob Leyard, CEO of Eos, shares his "come to Jesus moment" when he realized the importance of operations after almost failing due to neglecting it.
• Challenges with global rollout of software product. 20:50
• Rob struggles to explain why his company's global rollout failed despite initial success.
• Entrepreneurship, leadership, and managing visionary CEOs. 22:30
• Rob shares his personal story of struggling with his tech startup, including not getting paid for 7 months and experiencing marital problems.
• Bethany Ayers commends Rob for his honesty and openness, and shares that many entrepreneurs can relate to his challenges.
• Rob recognizes that working with visionary CEOs can be challenging due to their unique perspective and potential lack of clarity on their company's identity and goals.
• Rob's approach to taming visionary CEOs involves recognizing the problem, understanding their perspective, and using practical tools like EOS to help them achieve their dreams while aligning with reality.
• Business strategy and operations for startups. 26:35
• Rob is frustrated that his business is not growing despite his charisma and support, and he suspects that he may be doing something wrong.
• The book "Excellent Entrepreneur" provides a framework for businesses to run coherently, with six components: vision, data, process, traction, issues, and people.
• Brandon and Rob discuss the importance of a clear vision and traction plan for startups, including creating a one-page business plan and setting quarterly strategic initiatives.
• They also emphasize the need for data-driven decision making and consistent processes across the organization to drive accountability and good habits.
• EOS framework for entrepreneurs and operators. 31:51
• Rob emphasizes the importance of identifying and solving root causes, rather than just discussing them.
• Bethany Ayers agrees and adds that there are two roles in EOS, and taming comes into play.
• Rob: EOS model requires visionary to identify integrator, who is CIO and essential for success.
• Bethany Ayers: Using EOS playbook can help find common language between operator and visionary, elevating professional operator to center of organization.
• Entrepreneurship, EOS, and the role of operators. 36:07
• Rob, a passionate advocate of EOS, shares insights on how individuals can help visionaries in stuck organizations by taking control of their own careers and self-esteem.
• Rob suggests creating a personalized explanation of EOS components and how working with Brandon can help organizations move forward.
• Rob is open to creating his own operating system after finding success with EOS and reading other business books.
• Rob believes that finding a system that works and elevating operators to their rightful place in the entrepreneurial community is enough for him, and he now preaches the gospel of operation excellence to others.
• Effective meetings and organizational alignment. 41:13
• Brandon and Rob discuss creating an L10 meeting, which involves starting with a segue, reviewing rocks, looking at the scorecard, and addressing issues.
• The meeting agenda includes a fixed agenda, and issues are reviewed and prioritized for solving in the next week or quarter.
• Rob emphasizes the importance of finding a workplace where you are appreciated and implementing a system to manage growth and issues effectively.
• Rob encourages listeners to explore different systems and not settle for a company that is happy living in chaos, and to give them the opportunity to come meet them where they are.

In this episode we unpack the topic of: The COO Role: Why Would You Ever Want the Job? with Chuck Orzechowski, CEO of the COO Forum. 

Bethany and I discuss the following: 

• How do you avoid being the dumping ground for things that others don’t want to do?  
• Why would you want the COO job? 

We then discuss the following with Chuck: 

• What are the most common issues you see across your COO membership? 
• What is the best approach to clarifying decision-making authority with the CEO? 
• Why is “pace of change” a common frustration for COO’s? 
• What do you do when the CEO relationship is not working for you? 
• What is the key criteria for determining a good COO-CEO match? 
• What are the rewarding elements of being a COO? 

References

• The COO Forum® has been delivering on the mission of helping Operations Executives achieve more since 2004. Our members tackle the most pressing challenges facing their businesses and those that shape their careers. Join the best Operations Executives in the world as we celebrate our 20th Anniversary. Don't go it alone in 2024.
• Launching this February, Find Your COO™ will provide CEOs/Recruiters a one-stop source for finding talented COOs. The platform is built on top of the CEO-COO Alignment Index™ scoring system. It uses 25 key questions to create profiles for both the hiring CEO and COO candidates. These questions cover areas such as preferred communication frequency, speed of change, role relationship, delegation, trust development and more. Then, both parties can see each other's scoring reports to better assess potential fit or mis-alignment. This sets the stage for improved recruitment, interviewing and alignment post hire, which leads to better performance and COO job satisfaction. 

Biography: Chuck Orzechowski serves as CEO of the Chief Operating Officer Business Forum® (COO Forum®.) Since 2004, the COO Forum’s mission has been to support operations executives in achieving more in their business and professional lives. As a peer-based professional development organization, the COO Forum has helped 1000’s of executives navigate the challenges of their roles and improve business outcomes. 

Over the past 28 years, Chuck has spent most of his career leading operations in a wide variety of industries and company sizes, ranging from start-up through Fortune 500s. Chuck has a passion for improving operations, scaling businesses, and the professional development of others. 

It’s what gets him out of bed each morning...that and coffee!

Summary:

• Whiskey, rock concerts, and personal values. 0:05
• Brandon and Bethany discuss Bethany's husband's illness and their celebration with whiskey advent calendars.
• Brandon attends a Danko Jones concert at the Garage in North Islington, describing the band as a fusion of rock, punk, and jazz.
• Brandon mentions a mosh pit at a concert where he was the "enforcer" to push back, but he was not tempted to join due to his age and past experiences.
• Bethany has been reflecting on her values and purpose in life, realizing that having fun is her guiding principle, and she's looking for innovative and energizing experiences that bring her joy.
• Bethany was approached to become a CEO but lacked passion and interest in the domain, leading to her rejection in the final interview.
• Despite feeling relieved to not have to present, Bethany's lack of enthusiasm was picked up on by the only woman on the board, who ultimately decided not to move forward with her candidacy.
• CEO roles, delegation, and avoiding unnecessary work. 7:21
• Bethany shares her realization that she doesn't want to leave her children a large inheritance and instead wants to prioritize their education as their inheritance.
• Brandon questions the appeal of the CEO role and why Bethany would want the job, given her newfound priorities and interests.
• Brandon and Bethany discuss how operations professionals can avoid taking on tasks that nobody else wants to do, such as ISO certification or back-office work.
• Brandon suggests delegating tasks to others or hiring someone to handle them, while Bethany agrees and shares her own experience of successfully pushing off ISO certification to others.
• Both Brandon and Bethany emphasize the importance of owning your role and delegating tasks to others to avoid taking on too much work that you're not passionate about.
• CEO aspirations and leadership skills. 13:28
• Bethany highlights the variety and problem-solving aspects of being a CEO as a source of enjoyment.
• Bethany desires the CEO role for the authority and accountability it provides, as well as the opportunity for a deep relationship with one person.
• Brandon enjoys connecting the dots to make a company successful, and he finds it fascinating to analyze data and trends to inform go-to-market motions.
• Brandon also enjoys coaching others, whether it's helping them rise in their careers or gain confidence, and he finds it both altruistic and selfish.
• The COO role and its universality. 19:08
• Chuck discusses the COO role and its universality beyond just tech startups.
• CEO-CFO relationship, decision-making challenges. 20:41
• Chuck identifies the top 2 challenges faced by operations executives: misalignment between the CFO and CEO, and scaling the business while dealing with people challenges such as decision making. (20 words)
• Bethany asks Chuck about the most common complaints and challenges she hears from new members, and Chuck shares his own war stories and insights. (10 words)
• CEO makes decisions differently than operations executives, with a unique perspective that's difficult for others to understand.
• Communication is key to understanding CEO decision-making process and partnering with them to offload some decisions.
• CEO role, decision-making, and pace of change in organizations. 26:09
• Brandon and Chuck discuss the challenges of decision-making as a CEO, including the need to balance facilitating the leadership team with making decisions as a group.
• Chuck mentions the importance of documenting the decision-making process to avoid confusion and ensure consistency, particularly when it comes to the pace of change within an organization.
• Chuck shares his personal story of joining a startup as COO and making changes despite the owner's return from sabbatical.
• Navigating a business with a non-alignment CEO. 29:47
• Chuck wanted to analyze financials to understand business growth and make decisions to improve the CEO's life.
• Chuck saw the profit and loss statement but not the balance sheet or forecast, despite requests, and struggled to align goals and decision-making with the CEO.
• Chuck emphasizes the importance of communication and decision-making in a CEO-peer relationship, particularly when the CEO's expectations are not aligned with reality.
• Brandon advises peers to assess their ability to operate in the CEO's environment and make decisions based on their own needs and goals.
• Leadership hires, values, and styles in business. 34:25
• Bethany observes that 50% of leadership hires fail, and hypothesizes that this is due to leaders' inability to adapt to different situations and cultures.
• Chuck believes leadership assessments are less important than alignment in a CEO-CFO relationship, focusing on communication, decision-making, trust, and growth expectations.
• Chuck is developing an CEO alignment index to help organizations identify the right CFO fit, based on a candidate's desire for change and growth, and alignment with the CEO's vision.
• CEO role, challenges, and rewards. 38:43
• CEO matchmaking platform assesses alignment between CEO's preferences and role requirements.
• Chuck highlights the importance of people skills for COOs, who often serve as a buffer between the CEO and rest of the organization.
• Brandon asks an unconventional question about the CEO forum, which includes CEOs from various industries, emphasizing the people-based nature of software development and collaboration.
• Chuck emphasizes the importance of communication and alignment among CEOs and their teams, citing the value of diverse perspectives and missions in driving success.
• Chuck encourages CEOs to stick with the role, highlighting its rewarding nature and the importance of perseverance in overcoming challenges