The Ezra Klein Show

The Pandemic Lessons We Clearly Haven’t Learned


Listen Later

I remember thinking, as Covid ravaged the country in December 2020, that at least the holidays the next year would be better. There would be more vaccines, more treatments, more immunity. Instead, we got Omicron and a confusing new phase of the pandemic. What do you do with a variant that is both monstrously more infectious and somewhat milder? What do you say about another year when we didn’t have enough tests, enough ventilation or the best guidance on masks? And how do you handle the fracturing politics of a changing pandemic in an exhausted country?

Zeynep Tufekci is a sociologist and New York Times Opinion columnist who does a better job than almost anyone at assessing the pandemic at a systems level. To solve a public-health crisis, it’s not enough to get the science right. There are also challenges with supply chains, infrastructure, research production, mass communication, political trust and institutional inertia. I’ve found Tufekci’s ability to balance the epidemiological data and the sociological realities uniquely helpful across the pandemic, and you can hear why in this conversation.

We discuss how the Covid crisis has changed, as well as Tufekci’s sobering conclusion: that the virus, at this point, is feeding on our dysfunction. We look at what Omicron is and isn’t, where the Biden administration has succeeded and failed, the debate over closing schools, why so many Asian countries have so powerfully outperformed the West, how the role of vaccines has changed, what a pandemic-prepared society would actually look like, and what should be true of our pandemic policy in a year that isn’t now.

Book recommendations:

The Theory and Practice of Group Psychotherapy by Irvin D. Yalom and Molyn Leszcz

Chaos by James Gleick

The Dead Hand by David Hoffman

Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at [email protected].

You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast, and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.

“The Ezra Klein Show” is produced by Annie Galvin, Jeff Geld and Rogé Karma; fact-checking by Michelle Harris, Mary Marge Locker and Kate Sinclair; original music by Isaac Jones; mixing by Jeff Geld; audience strategy by Shannon Busta. Our executive producer is Irene Noguchi. Special thanks to Kristin Lin.

Unlock full access to New York Times podcasts and explore everything from politics to pop culture. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify.

...more
View all episodesView all episodes
Download on the App Store

The Ezra Klein ShowBy New York Times Opinion

  • 4.5
  • 4.5
  • 4.5
  • 4.5
  • 4.5

4.5

11,517 ratings


More shows like The Ezra Klein Show

View all
The Book Review by The New York Times

The Book Review

3,904 Listeners

Popcast by The New York Times

Popcast

1,446 Listeners

Fresh Air by NPR

Fresh Air

38,139 Listeners

The Political Scene | The New Yorker by WNYC Studios and The New Yorker

The Political Scene | The New Yorker

3,897 Listeners

The New Yorker Radio Hour by WNYC Studios and The New Yorker

The New Yorker Radio Hour

6,644 Listeners

Modern Love by The New York Times

Modern Love

8,782 Listeners

Pivot by New York Magazine

Pivot

8,901 Listeners

Inside The Times by The New York Times

Inside The Times

134 Listeners

The Gray Area with Sean Illing by Vox

The Gray Area with Sean Illing

10,644 Listeners

The Run-Up by The New York Times

The Run-Up

2,068 Listeners

Pod Save America by Crooked Media

Pod Save America

86,200 Listeners

The Daily by The New York Times

The Daily

111,169 Listeners

Change Agent by The New York Times

Change Agent

1,465 Listeners

Caliphate by The New York Times

Caliphate

12,628 Listeners

Charm City by The New York Times

Charm City

299 Listeners

Interesting Times with Ross Douthat by New York Times Opinion

Interesting Times with Ross Douthat

6,703 Listeners

The Bulwark Podcast by The Bulwark

The Bulwark Podcast

11,411 Listeners

The Latest by The New York Times

The Latest

469 Listeners

The Candidates by The New York Times

The Candidates

52 Listeners

Jungle Prince by The New York Times

Jungle Prince

2,289 Listeners

The Choice by New York Times Opinion

The Choice

380 Listeners

Rabbit Hole by The New York Times

Rabbit Hole

6,670 Listeners

Hard Fork by The New York Times

Hard Fork

5,363 Listeners

Day X by The New York Times

Day X

1,496 Listeners

The Weekly Show with Jon Stewart by Comedy Central

The Weekly Show with Jon Stewart

10,241 Listeners

Offline with Jon Favreau by Crooked Media

Offline with Jon Favreau

2,205 Listeners

The Interview by The New York Times

The Interview

1,442 Listeners

The Run-Up (2016) by The New York Times

The Run-Up (2016)

7 Listeners

On with Kara Swisher by Vox Media

On with Kara Swisher

3,134 Listeners

The Argument by New York Times Opinion

The Argument

17 Listeners

The Opinions by The New York Times Opinion

The Opinions

390 Listeners

The Run-Up Guide to 2024 by The New York Times

The Run-Up Guide to 2024

0 Listeners