The Unspeakeasy With Meghan Daum

This is the full version of the Aug 4 episode, now available to all subscribers.

Author, New York Times columnist, and superstar linguist John McWhorter returns to the pod to catch us up on what's been on his mind now that the Woke Emergency is over . . . or is it over? We talk about how figures like Robin D'Angelo and Ibram X. Kendi have receded from the spotlight and then move on to more pressing questions topics, such as whether New York City mayoral candidate Zohran Mamdani's "I vs me" confusion is disqualifying (I say yes), whether a smart person would say "stupider" or "more stupid," when it became acceptable to say "anyways," and why kids today have substituted "based off" for "based on." We also discuss John's long-running conversations with economist Glenn Loury on The Glenn Show and how their divergent views on the Trump phenomenon have changed (and also not changed) the dynamics of their discussions. (Listen to my 2024 interview with Glenn Loury here.) John reflects on Glenn's 2024 memoir and explains why he would be reluctant to expand the personal writing in his columns into an entire book. Finally, we talk about the definition of a public intellectual and why so many people with microphones count themselves as such. Would a legendary public intellectual like Susan Sontag have adapted to the YouTube era? What John has to say might surprise you. John McWhorter is one of several speakers featured at the Unspeakeasy Small Gathering for Big Ideas rereat in New York City October 11-12, 2025. Find out more at https://theunspeakeasy.com/nyc. GUEST BIO John McWhorter writes a weekly newsletter for The New York Times, is a professor of linguistics at Columbia University, and the author or more than 20 books, most recently Pronoun Trouble, Nine Nasty Words, and Woke Racism. HOUSEKEEPING Order my new book, The Catastrophe Hour: Selected Essays, on Amazon or directly from the publisher here. Join the listener and reader community by subscribing to my Substack at theunspeakablepodcast.com. Visit The Unspeakable on YouTube.

This week I'm joined by Alana Newhouse, journalist, cultural critic, and founder/editor-in-chief of Tablet Magazine. Since launching Tablet in 2009, Alana has carved out a space for nuanced and surprising reporting on Jewish identity and the larger cultural questions shaping those issues, as well as the broader issues of our time.

We discuss her 2021 essay, Everything Is Broken, in which she diagnoses systemic failures in medicine, media, education, and culture. Alana traces these breakdowns to a pervasive cultural force she calls flatness — the drive toward frictionless interaction, simplified narratives, and ideological conformity.

Drawing from her own story of navigating a medical crisis with her own child, Alana exposes how even privileged, insured families can be failed by institutions. She also offers a blueprint for repair: embracing complexity, friction, unpredictability, and deep creative engagement.

Alana will be a guest speaker at our Unspeakeasy Small Gathering for Big Ideas weekend, October 11-12 in New York City. Programming and ticketing info here.

Are you a fan of what Alana has done at Tablet? Show your love (and get a big discount) by using promo code ALANA1800 at checkout.

GUEST BIO

Alana Newhouse is the founder and editor-in-chief of Tablet Magazine.

Want to hear the whole conversation? Upgrade your subscription here.

HOUSEKEEPING

📖 Order my new book, The Catastrophe Hour: Selected Essays, on Amazon or directly from the publisher here.

📘 The Catastrophe Hour book club for yearly paying subscribers starts June 11 and will run for 14 consecutive Wednesdays, 3-4 pm ET. We will meet on Zoom. More info here.

🗽 Live event in NYC on Sept 3! Come see me discuss The Catastrophe Hour with bestselling novelist and columnist Lionel Shriver (catch my recent interview with Lionel here). The Village Underground, 6 pm. Tickets and info [here](http://paid%20subscribers%20get%20access%20to%20my%20entire%20interview%20with%20rachel%20mason.%20to%20hear%20the%20entire%20conversation,%20become%20a%20paying%20subscriber%20here./).

This week, I'm joined by author Kelsey Osgood to discuss her recent book "Godstruck: Seven Women's Unexpected Journeys To Religious Conversion." The book, which profiles women who traded secular lives for religious communities such as the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, evangelical Christianity, Quakerism, Orthodox Judaism, Saudi-based Islam, and even the Amish faith, is fascinating in its own right. But we also discuss Kelsey's previous book about her struggle with and recovery from anorexia, which overlaps with her religious transformation in some surprising ways. In that book, How To Disappear Completely, Kelsey wrote not just about anorexia itself but the culture surrounding it, notably the "peak sad girl" era of the late 1990s through early 2000s. The therapeutic approach that accompanied it, she argues, took universal human questions that have been asked for millennia and repackaged them as personal neuroses to be indulged and then solved — or, more often, deemed unsolvable. Her conversion to Judaism and participation in an Orthodox community helped reframe her entire way of thinking and changed her life for the better.

GUEST BIO

Kelsey Osgood is the author of How to Disappear Completely: On Modern Anorexia, which was chosen for the Barnes & Noble Discover Great New Writers Program, and Godstruck: Seven Women's Unexpected Journeys to Religious Conversion, which came out in April from Viking. Her work has appeared online or in print at The Atlantic, The New York Times, Harper's, and the New Yorker, among other outlets.

HOUSEKEEPING

📖 Order my new book, The Catastrophe Hour: Selected Essays, on Amazon or directly from the publisher here.

📘 The Catastrophe Hour book club for yearly paying subscribers starts June 11 and will run for 14 consecutive Wednesdays, 3-4 pm ET. We will meet on Zoom.

📹 The Unspeakeasy Live livestream takes place every Thursday at 3:00 p.m. ET. Look for a notification on your Substack app when we're live.

Stuff to read and listen to:

New York Times, Jan 31, 2025: The L.A. Fires Taught Me To Accept Help

Recent(ish) solo episodes:

• January 9: The First 24 Hours
• January 16: The Immaterial World
• January 27: Housing Wars
• February 5: Remembrance Of Things Past
• February 13: What Is A "Catastrophe?"
• March 2: A Mental Infection
• March 31: Dignity Is Out Of Style

📺 Visit The Unspeakable on YouTube.

✈️ The Unspeakeasy's 2025 retreat season is underway. It includes a just-announced COED retreat with more attendees and multiple speakers. October 11-12 in New York City. Programming and ticketing info here.

Paid subscribers get early access to my interview with John McWhorter, who will be at the coed New York City Retreat. If you’re interested in meeting him in person (among others), you can get $700 off with the code NYC1800.

Author, New York Times columnist, and superstar linguist John McWhorter returns to the pod to catch us up on what’s been on his mind now that the Woke Emergency is over . . . or is it over? We talk about how figures like Robin D’Angelo and Ibram X. Kendi have receded from the spotlight and then move on to more pressing questions topics, such as whether New York City mayoral candidate Zohran Mamdani’s “I vs me” confusion is disqualifying (I say yes), whether a smart person would say “stupider” or “more stupid,” when it became acceptable to say “anyways,” and why kids today have substituted “based off” for “based on.”

We also discuss John’s long-running conversations with economist Glenn Loury on The Glenn Show and how their divergent views on the Trump phenomenon have changed (and also not changed) the dynamics of their discussions. John reflects on Glenn’s 2024 memoir and explains why he would be reluctant to expand the personal writing in his columns into an entire book. (Listen to my interview with Glenn here.)

Finally, we talk about the definition of a public intellectual and why so many people with microphones count themselves as such. Would a legendary public intellectual like Susan Sontag have adapted to the YouTube era? What John has to say might surprise you.

GUEST BIO

John McWhorter writes a weekly newsletter for The New York Times, is a professor of linguistics at Columbia University, and the author or more than 20 books, most recently Pronoun Trouble, Nine Nasty Words, and Woke Racism.

Want to hear the whole conversation? Upgrade your subscription here.

HOUSEKEEPING

📖 Order my new book, The Catastrophe Hour: Selected Essays, on Amazon or directly from the publisher here.

📘 The Catastrophe Hour book club for yearly paying subscribers starts June 11 and will run for 14 consecutive Wednesdays, 3-4 pm ET. We will meet on Zoom.

Stuff to read and listen to:

New York Times, Jan 31, 2025: The L.A. Fires Taught Me To Accept Help

Recent(ish) solo episodes:

• January 9: The First 24 Hours
• January 16: The Immaterial World
• January 27: Housing Wars
• February 5: Remembrance Of Things Past
• February 13: What Is A "Catastrophe?"
• March 2: A Mental Infection
• March 31: Dignity Is Out Of Style

📺 Visit The Unspeakable on YouTube.

✈️ The Unspeakeasy’s 2025 retreat season is underway. It includes a COED retreat with more attendees and multiple speakers. October 11-12 in New York City. Programming and ticketing info here.

September 3 in NYC at 6 pm, I'll be in conversation with Lionel live at The Village Underground. Tix available here. Use promo code CATASTROPHE18 at checkout for a discount.

Bestselling novelist and beloved (and occasionally be-hated) columnist Lionel Shriver returns to the podcast to talk about several topics, including her most recent novel, Mania. In that novel, she imagines a society under the grip of "mental parity," a concept arguing that all individuals possess equal intelligence and no one should be given greater credence or responsibility because of the perception that they are smarter. We also discuss our own intelligence (are we really all that smart?) and wonder what makes us so resistant to groupthink in politics and daily life, especially around movements like #MeToo, Black Lives Matter, and gender ideology.

In search of a lighter topic, we finally move on to . . . immigration. (Oops.) As a Los Angeles resident, I've been alarmed by the ICE raids in my community, and I'm quite upset about the Trump administration's policies. As a longtime expatriate in the U.K. and as the author of a forthcoming novel about immigration (A Better Life, coming in February 2026), Lionel sees things a little differently.

GUEST BIO

A prolific journalist with a fortnightly column in Britain's The Spectator, Lionel Shriver has written widely for the New York Times, the London Times, the Financial Times, Harper's Magazine, and many other publications. Her first nonfiction book, ABOMINATIONS: Selected Essays from a Career of Courting Self-destruction, was published in 2022. It joins a story collection and fifteen novels, including Mania, Should We Stay or Should We Go, The Mandibles, and We Need to Talk About Kevin (a 2011 film starring Tilda Swinton). Her work has been translated into 35 languages. Her latest novel A Better Life, focused on immigration, will be out in early 2026.

UPCOMING EVENT:

Once again, if you enjoyed this interview, join me in NYC on September 3 at The Village Underground for a conversation with Lionel about The Catastrophe Hour as well as her work. Topics will include (but are not limited to) death, sex, real estate, dogs, beauty, grief, aging, cancelation, incels, femcels, self-destruction, natural disasters, pronatalism, anti-natalism, human intelligence, and cultural stupidity.

Doors open at 5:15, show starts at 6pm. Tix available here. Use promo code CATASTROPHE18 at checkout for a discount.

HOUSEKEEPING

📖 Order my new book, The Catastrophe Hour: Selected Essays, on Amazon or directly from the publisher here.

📘 The Catastrophe Hour book club for yearly paying subscribers starts June 11 and will run for 14 consecutive Wednesdays, 3-4 pm ET. We will meet on Zoom.

Stuff to read and listen to:

New York Times, Jan 31, 2025: The L.A. Fires Taught Me To Accept Help

Recent(ish) solo episodes:

• January 9: The First 24 Hours
• January 16: The Immaterial World
• January 27: Housing Wars
• February 5: Remembrance Of Things Past
• February 13: What Is A "Catastrophe?"
• March 2: A Mental Infection
• March 31: Dignity Is Out Of Style

📺 Visit The Unspeakable on YouTube.

✈️ The Unspeakeasy's 2025 retreat season is underway. It includes a COED retreat with more attendees and multiple speakers. October 11-12 in New York City. Programming and ticketing info here.

This week, I'm joined by author Kelsey Osgood to discuss her recent book "Godstruck: Seven Women's Unexpected Journeys To Religious Conversion." The book, which profiles women who traded secular lives for religious communities such as the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, evangelical Christianity, Quakerism, Orthodox Judaism, Saudi-based Islam, and even the Amish faith, is fascinating in its own right. But we also discuss Kelsey's previous book about her struggle with and recovery from anorexia, which overlaps with her religious transformation in some surprising ways. In that book, How To Disappear Completely, Kelsey wrote not just about anorexia itself but the culture surrounding it, notably the "peak sad girl" era of the late 1990s through early 2000s. The therapeutic approach that accompanied it, she argues, took universal human questions that have been asked for millennia and repackaged them as personal neuroses to be indulged and then solved — or, more often, deemed unsolvable. Her conversion to Judaism and participation in an Orthodox community helped reframe her entire way of thinking and changed her life for the better.

GUEST BIO

Kelsey Osgood is the author of How to Disappear Completely: On Modern Anorexia, which was chosen for the Barnes & Noble Discover Great New Writers Program, and Godstruck: Seven Women's Unexpected Journeys to Religious Conversion, which came out in April from Viking. Her work has appeared online or in print at The Atlantic, The New York Times, Harper's, and the New Yorker, among other outlets.

Want to hear the whole conversation? Upgrade your subscription here.

HOUSEKEEPING

📖 Order my new book, The Catastrophe Hour: Selected Essays, on Amazon or directly from the publisher here.

📘 The Catastrophe Hour book club for yearly paying subscribers starts June 11 and will run for 14 consecutive Wednesdays, 3-4 pm ET. We will meet on Zoom.

📹 The Unspeakeasy Live livestream takes place every Thursday at 3:00 p.m. ET. Look for a notification on your Substack app when we're live.

Stuff to read and listen to:

New York Times, Jan 31, 2025: The L.A. Fires Taught Me To Accept Help

Recent(ish) solo episodes:

• January 9: The First 24 Hours
• January 16: The Immaterial World
• January 27: Housing Wars
• February 5: Remembrance Of Things Past
• February 13: What Is A "Catastrophe?"
• March 2: A Mental Infection
• March 31: Dignity Is Out Of Style

📺 Visit The Unspeakable on YouTube.

✈️ The Unspeakeasy's 2025 retreat season is underway. It includes a just-announced COED retreat with more attendees and multiple speakers. October 11-12 in New York City. Programming and ticketing info here.

The next meeting of The Catastrophe Hour Book Club is scheduled for Wednesday, July 23, at 3:00 p.m. ET. We will discuss the fifth essay of the collection, Playlist of Tears.

The book club meets for 14 consecutive Wednesdays at 3:00 p.m. ET. The book club is for yearly paid Substack subscribers only, so if you want to join, please upgrade your subscription at www.theunspeakablepodcast.com.

About The Catastrophe Hour "One of our most important essayists . . . The Catastrophe Hour is proof that writers and readers can choose to engage with their lives in a manner that is radically disengaged with the pointless noise of the day." — Washington Examiner From the acclaimed author of The Unspeakable and The Problem with Everything comes a new collection of unputdownable essays. Written between 2017 and 2024, these essays are classic Meghan Daum, showcasing her wit, her intellect and her uncanny ability to throw new light on even the most ubiquitous of subjects. Arranged in the order that they were written, the essays touch on themes of aging, solitude, creative life, money, the changing media landscape, death, and the meaning of home. Daum's unflinching honesty and exacting observations secure her reputation as one of our most important and enduring essayists.

This episode starts with a Very Special introduction in which I explain what's been going on with the podcast over the last six months (lots of different offerings, which possibly caused some confusion) and talk about the ongoing challenges of the subscriber model. (Short version, please stick around!)

I then have the great pleasure of interviewing evolutionary biologist Dr. Carole Hooven, who's been a speaker at several Unspeakeasy events but never actually a guest on the podcast. As we approach the four-year anniversary of the publication of her book, T: The Story of Testosterone, the Hormone that Dominates and Divides Us, Carole recounts how a media appearance defending "male" and "female" as meaningful scientific categories led to unexpected controversy and her eventual departure from Harvard, where she'd taught for many years. She talks about how ideological influence has made even basic scientific facts about sex contentious and cites the importance of precise use of language, especially on topics like sex differences and women's rights, which she feels have been muddied by cultural and political agendas.

Most fascinatingly (to me, anyway), Carole argues that a predominantly female, progressive teaching culture favors girls' learning styles—while boys, wired differently by biology, are stigmatized and alienated. Meanwhile, it's become culturally verboten to even acknowledge men's intense sexual drives and emotional vulnerability, and she calls for a return to rites of passage that acknowledge male biology without shame.

Finally, we talk about a recent controversy surrounding her husband, MIT philosophy professor Alex Byrne (who was a guest on the podcast back in March 2024), after he was invited to contribute to a U.S. Health and Human Services report on sex and gender. Although the team was politically diverse, Alex's name was leaked via PDF metadata, and he faced fierce criticism from activist students and colleagues. He responded with a Washington Post op-ed explaining his position.

GUEST BIO

Dr. Carole Hooven is a human evolutionary biologist, the author of T: The Story of Testosterone, the Hormone that Dominates and Divides Us, and a nonresident senior fellow at the American Enterprise Institute.

HOUSEKEEPING

📖 Order my new book, The Catastrophe Hour: Selected Essays, on Amazon or directly from the publisher here.

📘 The Catastrophe Hour book club for yearly paying subscribers starts June 11 and will run for 14 consecutive Wednesdays, 3-4 pm ET. We will meet on Zoom.

📹 The Unspeakeasy Live livestream takes place every Thursday at 3:00 p.m. ET. Look for a notification on your Substack app when we're live.

Stuff to read and listen to:

New York Times, Jan 31, 2025: The L.A. Fires Taught Me To Accept Help

Recent(ish) solo episodes:

• January 9: The First 24 Hours
• January 16: The Immaterial World
• January 27: Housing Wars
• February 5: Remembrance Of Things Past
• February 13: What Is A "Catastrophe?"
• March 2: A Mental Infection
• March 31: Dignity Is Out Of Style

📺 Visit The Unspeakable on YouTube.

✈️ The Unspeakeasy's 2025 retreat season is underway. It includes a just-announced COED retreat with more attendees and multiple speakers. October 11-12 in New York City. Programming and ticketing info here.

Housekeeping

📺 Visit The Unspeakable on YouTube.

✈️ The Unspeakeasy has new retreats for 2025. We'll be in Texas, New York, Los Angeles, and more.

🥂 Join The Unspeakeasy, my community for freethinking women.

The next meeting of The Catastrophe Hour Book Club is scheduled for Wednesday, July 16, at 3:00 p.m. ET. We will discuss the fifth essay of the collection, Playlist of Tears.

The book club meets for 14 consecutive Wednesdays at 3:00 p.m. ET. The book club is for yearly paid Substack subscribers only, so if you want to join, please upgrade your subscription at www.theunspeakablepodcast.com.

About The Catastrophe Hour "One of our most important essayists . . . The Catastrophe Hour is proof that writers and readers can choose to engage with their lives in a manner that is radically disengaged with the pointless noise of the day." — Washington Examiner From the acclaimed author of The Unspeakable and The Problem with Everything comes a new collection of unputdownable essays. Written between 2017 and 2024, these essays are classic Meghan Daum, showcasing her wit, her intellect and her uncanny ability to throw new light on even the most ubiquitous of subjects. Arranged in the order that they were written, the essays touch on themes of aging, solitude, creative life, money, the changing media landscape, death, and the meaning of home. Daum's unflinching honesty and exacting observations secure her reputation as one of our most important and enduring essayists.

In this episode, I speak with filmmaker Rachel Mason about her documentary Last Take*: Rust and the Story of Halyna*, which explores the death of cinematographer Halyna Hutchins on the set of Rust. On October 21, 20221, Alec Badwin, who starred in the film, pulled the trigger on a gun he thought was not loaded, killing Halyna and injuring director Joel Souza. Through the lens of grief, media spectacle, and justice. Rachel, a close friend of Halyna's, offers an intimate perspective on the aftermath of the incident and how it was experienced by those who knew Halyna beyond the headlines.

We also talk about Rachel's recent docuseries, An Update on Our Family, which investigates the world of family vlogging on YouTube—particularly the story of Myka and James Stauffer, whose decision to rehome their adopted son sparked public outrage and raised ethical questions about online parenting content. Toward the end of our conversation, Rachel talks about her next project, a collaborative effort to unravel a legendary unsolved murder case in Los Angeles. It's a wide-ranging and thought-provoking conversation that touches on art, ethics, personal loss, and the complexities of telling true stories in a digital age. I hope you enjoy it as much as I did.

GUEST BIO

Rachel Mason is a Los Angeles-based filmmaker. She received an Emmy Nomination for her Netflix Original Documentary Circus of Books, based on her biographical telling of growing up the child of owners of an adult bookstore that was a fixture of the gay community during the height of the AIDS era. In 2025 a series Mason directed called "An Update on Our Family" was released on HBO MAX and has been cited in legal arguments proposing legislation changes regarding children on the internet. Following that, Hulu released the authorized documentary about her friend Halyna Hutchins death on the Alec Baldwin film Rust. She is currently completing a documentary about the murder of a young gay man in 1990 named Billy London, which was until 2022 a cold case. The film is being made independently and has been a volunteer effort from the community, who helped to solve the crime.

Last Take: Rust and the Story of Halyna- Hulu

An Update on Our Family- HBO Max

Circus of Books- Netflix

Want to hear the whole conversation? Upgrade your subscription here.

HOUSEKEEPING

📖 Order my new book, The Catastrophe Hour: Selected Essays, on Amazon or directly from the publisher here.

📘 The Catastrophe Hour book club for yearly paying subscribers starts June 11 and will run for 14 consecutive Wednesdays, 3-4 pm ET. We will meet on Zoom.

📹 The Unspeakeasy Live livestream takes place every Thursday at 3:00 p.m. ET. Look for a notification on your Substack app when we're live.

Stuff to read and listen to:

New York Times, Jan 31, 2025: The L.A. Fires Taught Me To Accept Help

Recent(ish) solo episodes:

• January 9: The First 24 Hours
• January 16: The Immaterial World
• January 27: Housing Wars
• February 5: Remembrance Of Things Past
• February 13: What Is A "Catastrophe?"
• March 2: A Mental Infection
• March 31: Dignity Is Out Of Style

📺 Visit The Unspeakable on YouTube.

✈️ The Unspeakeasy's 2025 retreat season is underway. It includes a just-announced COED retreat with more attendees and multiple speakers. October 11-12 in New York City. Programming and ticketing info here.