How the pursuit of power in the American church undermines its true mission—and how returning to the way of the Lamb transforms our communities, leadership models, and personal discipleship. Mike Erre and guest co-host Andy Bear are joined by authors and leaders Kyle Strobel and Jamin Goggin to unpack themes from their book, The Way of the Dragon or the Way of the Lamb. In this deep and often hilarious conversation, they explore how modern Christianity has embraced worldly power, how we can relearn the power of weakness, and what it means to follow Jesus' subversive model of leadership.

From seminaries to mega-churches, preaching to hair highlights, the crew examines how power, charisma, and platform have overtaken humility, community, and spiritual disciplines—leaving us spiritually malnourished but numerically impressive. What does real maturity, real spiritual authority, and real fruit look like? And how do we build churches that form Christlike disciples instead of celebrity pastors?

Key Takeaways: • Power from Below vs. Power from Above – Exploring the biblical distinction between worldly ambition and Christlike leadership, drawing from James 3 and Revelation's imagery of the dragon and the lamb. • How the Church Mimics Culture – From influencer-minded platforms to stage-driven services, we've too often baptized secular strategies instead of embodying alternative kingdom values. • Spiritual Practices Recenter Power – Communion, confession, and community are not optional; they are tangible expressions of dependence and reminders of grace, crucial for counter-forming us from self-reliance. • Weakness as the Path to Trustworthy Power – God meets us in our weakness not to leave us there, but to empower us to lead and love from a deeper place of transformation. • Redefining Mission – What if instead of going to "fix" others, mission was about mutuality, embodied love, and learning from those the world marginalizes?

Guest Highlights: Kyle Strobel – Professor of Spiritual Theology at Biola University and systematic theologian with deep expertise in Jonathan Edwards. Kyle unpacks how the church's theological integrity is compromised when it defaults to power-grabbing and performance.

Jamin Goggin – Longtime pastor currently serving in San Marcos, CA, Jamin shares authentically about the challenges of leading differently, seeking relationships with those unimpressed by pastoral authority, and creating space for genuine friendship and accountability.

Resources Mentioned: • The Way of the Dragon or the Way of the Lamb by Jamin Goggin and Kyle Strobel – Amazon • James 3 – Teaching on two kinds of wisdom and the roots of demonic power (selfish ambition and envy) • John 15 – Jesus' call to abide and the paradoxical fruitfulness of weakness • Eugene Peterson, Dallas Willard, Jean Vanier, John Perkins – Key spiritual leaders explored in their book • The Divine Conspiracy by Dallas Willard • Second Corinthians – Where Paul boasts only in his weakness • Harry Potter (!) – A surprisingly robust metaphor for Christlike power rooted in love, not dominance

Join the Conversation: This episode is a call to detox from the worldly ways we've accepted as normal and rediscover Jesus' life-giving model of power through love. We'd love to hear your thoughts—email us at [email protected] or engage with the community on social media.

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