When Renée Good was fatally shot by a U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement officer in Minneapolis, it reignited a familiar debate. Was this another case of police brutality, or an act of self-defense? Protests followed. Politicians and public figures weighed in. But why does this keep happening—and how do we make policing better and safer for everyone?

Host Megan McArdle speaks with former New York City police commissioner William Bratton and former NYPD chief Kenneth E. Corey. They join Megan to discuss their work at University of Chicago’s Policing Leadership Academy, and advocate that the program, and more like it, can reduce violence and improve fairness in policing.

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