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Why do artists try so hard to shock the public? Why is Kanye West singing about Hitler? Why are New York artists dabbling with fascism?

The novelist and cultural critic Țara Isabella Burton joins Damir Marusic and Santiago Ramos to discuss these questions and more. Last week, Tara published an essay on Wisdom of Crowds titled “The Point of Pissing People Off.” In it, she tries to figure out whether there is something positive at work in transgression and provocation — something good that comes out of shocking art.

All three of our conversationalists agree: Kanye is not really being transgressive. But is there a good version of transgression? Tara suggests that we should think about transgression as a genre, with a certain form and structure, that can either succeed or fail. Damir is skeptical of analyzing transgression, and prefers to think of it as a moment of ecstasy. Santiago wonders if transgression is important for self-knowledge, and something valuable for society as a whole.

In the course of the conversation, many transgressive works and artists are discussed, among them: Piss Christ; Madonna; Georges Bataille; the Marquis de Sade; and more.

In our bonus section for paid subscribers, Damir talks about the difference between analyzing transgressive art and consuming transgressive art, and why he prefers the latter; Damir discusses the difference between the punk rock of his day, where Reagan was the enemy, and the transgressive art today, which hails Trump as a leader; Tara, Santiago, and Damir trade thoughts about the French Revolution; Santiago tries to get Damir to explain what he means when he talks about “the stuff”; they discuss the question of whether love is as powerful as transgression; Damir talks about his favorite part of the Gospels; and Tara talks about kitsch.

Required Reading and Listening:

* Tara, “The Point of Pissing People Off” (Wisdom of Crowds).

* Tara, Strange Rites: New Religions for a Godless World (Amazon).

* Tara, Self-Made: Creating Our Identities from Da Vinci to the Kardashians (Amazon).

* Damir’s discography from his punk rock days (Discogs).

* Damir’s music with his band, The Miss (Bandcamp).

* Kanye West, “Heil Symphony” (Spotify).

* “Kanye West’s ‘Heil Hitler’ Song & Controversy Explained” (Yahoo! Entertainment).

* The new Fiume Gallery in New York.

* Piss Christ by Andres Serrano (Artchive).

* Madonna, “Material Girl” (YouTube).

* Michel Foucault, Discipline and Punish (Amazon).

* Georges Bataille, Story of the Eye (Amazon).

* Gustave Flaubert, Madame Bovary (Amazon).

* Leo Tolstoy, Anna Karenina (Amazon).

* Previous podcast episode where Damir says, “That’s the stuff!” (Wisdom of Crowds).

* Something Beautiful for God by Malcolm Muggeridge, a book about Mother Teresa (Amazon).

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