Nilay Patel talks with head of global affairs and chief legal officer of Spotify Horacio Gutierrez to help understand why Spotify and so many other app developers are so frustrated with Apple. Horacio recently testified in front of Congress about Apple’s business practices, and just wrote an op-ed in the Wall Street Journal calling Apple a “ruthless bully.”

Horacio explains what he sees as the biggest problems with Apple’s behavior, what he would actually do to fix it, and how all of that connects to having more interesting, innovative, and better products in our lives.

Nilay also asks Horacio if he sees a connection between how he perceives Apple and how musicians perceive Spotify.

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