In many developmental movements there is a strong emphasis on so-called “ascendent” practices, which can lead to issues in the maturation process of the individual. In this conversation with Spring Cheng and Tom Murray we explore the descending path and how it relates to the ascending path in development, the role of grief, learning and unlearning, how one direction influences the other and encountering and deconstructing complexity. Spring Cheng is the co-founder of Resonance Path Institute, a non-profit organization based in Seattle that pioneers research and practice to restore the sensing-feeling-Self to serve the emergence of collective consciousness and wholesome social organizations, and co-author of The Resonance Code. Tom Murray is Director of Research, Innovation and Partnerships at STAGES International, is Chief Visionary and Instigator at Open Way Solutions, and is a Senior Research Fellow at the UMass School of Computer Science. He is an Associate Editor at Integral Review, and is on the editorial review board of the International Journal of Artificial Intelligence in Education. He has published articles on developmental theory and meta-theory as they relate to wisdom, education, we-space practices, ethics, and epistemology. Visit coachesrising.com to see our acclaimed online coach trainings and other offerings. ***Join us for our FREE Coaching Summit THE EVOLUTION OF COACHING from July 7 - 21 2022***