Today we’re exploring a topic that every writer is going to want to tune in and learn about: a trauma-informed approach to writing.

To speak to that, I’ve invited Michelle Stiffler on the show to help us see how trauma-informed writing can transform both us and our words.

This is one of the longest interviews I’ve published, but I believe it’s one of the most important.

Let’s get right to it.

Michelle Stiffler is a certified trauma specialist, trauma-informed trainer, and co-host of Arizona’s Trauma-Informed Faith Community podcast. Eight years of nonprofit work shaped her trauma understanding, and during this time she created the trauma-informed culture and processes for Arizona’s first trauma-informed faith-based organization.

Michelle is a married mother of four, plus two sons in law and a proud Mimi. She’s on the board of the Redbud Writers Guild, and her work has been published with Fathom, (in)courage, Guideposts and others, as well as the Women’s Devotional Bible in The Message, Michelle writes at OneMoreTruth.com.

Enjoy the interview in video format, audio, or read a lightly edited transcript below:

[00:01:17.520] – Ann Kroeker

On this topic of trauma-informed writing, and being a trauma-informed writer, should we be offering a trigger warning for anybody who’s tuning in?

[00:01:28.000] – Michelle Stiffler

I always like to offer a trigger warning simply because the word trauma itself, even if it’s paired with the word informed, sometimes just the word trauma can do something inside our bodies where we kind of tighten. We start to think about what trauma might be.

So I would just give that warning so that people can kind of come into this podcast episode comfortably. We’re not going to dive into anything deep or heavy. We don’t want to burden anybody today, but it just kind of gives you a sense, like, check in with yourself. If you’re tight, if you’re thinking about things that are uncomfortable, just be free. It’s going to be a safe conversation.

[00:02:07.050] – Ann Kroeker

I love that invitation, your sensitivity and your empathy. Thank you for helping them feel comfortable.

I understand that there’s this increasing awareness of trauma-informed anything and everything, and at the same time, I’m not that personally informed myself. So I’m probably going to ask you some really basic questions, Michelle.

And I’m thinking about my audience, too. There may be people who are deeply involved in this whole movement or idea, but if a writer is hearing about this for the first time, can you define what is trauma-informed writing and what is a trauma-informed writer?

[00:02:46.890] – Michelle Stiffler

For our purposes today, trauma-informed writing is defining an approach for writing.

When I come to my computer or when I come to the page and I intend on making my writing public, I’m coming with the lens that reminds me that trauma is very prevalent and that people broadly have experienced all kinds of adversity.

It could be little “t” trauma. It could be big “T” trauma. And I want to come to the keyboard thinking about how I can best serve people if they’re going through something hard or if they haven’t yet resolved something hard.

I don’t want to burden anybody with too many details, and I want to be able to provide even just one step further in healing or in some sense of wholeness.

That’s what trauma-informed writing would be.

A trauma-informed writer is basically saying that they live by the principles that the trauma-informed movement has in place. There are six of them. Those principles are:

• Safety

As a person, I want to be a safe person and we can get into this a little bit further later. I want to be somebody who’s trustworthy and transparent. I think transparent is sometimes an ambiguous word in the sense that we think vulnerability means.

[00:04:06.590] – Michelle Stiffler

I just share all my details. Transparency is just letting people know where things might go and it’s like, “Hey, you can trust me.” Like we said in the beginning, “I’m not going to burden you with too many details.” There’s a sense of support from that writer.

There’s a collaboration and mutuality that looks a little bit different when it comes to writing because writing is so solitary. I may not ever meet the people who read my writing, but I do want to come to the keyboard with a sense of, “Hey, we’re all humans. We all understand the human condition from our own experience. And I’m with you in that.”

There’s a sense of camaraderie, there’s empowerment. We always want to empower our readers to feel like they know what to do next. Not coming at them as if like, “Oh, you poor soul, you don’t know anything,” or “You’ve experienced this terrible tragedy.” It’s more like, “Let’s look at the strengths in this.”

And then also—and this one was recently added by the CDC in the past couple of years—but coming in our writing with a sense of sensitivity for different cultures, historical trauma, gender issues. Just being aware of how we use our words and our language so that it doesn’t feel exclusive or hateful.

There’s always a sense of compassion for people of all walks of life.

[00:05:27.480] – Ann Kroeker

This sounds vitally important for every writer because it sounds like, from what I’m hearing, all of this is focused on the reader and the effect on the reader, which I was kind of imagining. It was more about the writer and the writer’s trauma. Can you distinguish?

Michelle Stiffler

The trauma-informed is speaking to how we are addressing the reader and empowering the reader and all those eight incredible pillars of this principles.

[00:06:09.830] – Michelle Stiffler

I think writing about trauma is very different from anything that we could call trauma-informed.

A lot of us have become writers because we experienced something that was difficult or we had to wrestle with something that, even if it’s parenting, it was like, “Oh my goodness, this is challenging. And I think I need to figure out how to process some of these things that I’m going through.”

So we can certainly write about trauma, and that may have nothing to do with being trauma-informed.

If I’m a trauma-informed writer writing about my own trauma, then I am coming with those six principles and I am being more careful about the details that I share. So it’s not what I’m writing about necessarily, it’s how I’m writing about it, which I think is necessary for all writers, regardless of the topic, we always want to know how we’re writing about it.

And I think there are two parts. If I am thinking about my reader because I’m a trauma-informed writer, then there’s a lot of dealing with myself that I have to do before I ever come to write a single word. Or rather, there’s a lot I have to do before I ever publish a single word, before I ever hit that submit button.

[00:07:20.430] – Michelle Stiffler

The work is always going to be inward so that what we offer people outwardly is helpful and beneficial.

There’s a lot of personal work, so they kind of go together. We are thinking about the reader, but the only reason we’re able to is because we’ve also dealt with some of our own things.

That’s not to say it’s tidy, finished, completely resolved. We’re never going to get there. So we can get past that idea of perfect, but it means that we’ve at least put in some of the work to make sure that we’re coming from a place of fullness.

I think even at some of the most empty times in my life, there’s still a way to go about living with a kind of fullness that people can understand. Even if you’re still in the middle of it, even if it still feels dark, even if you’re waiting on that clarity about what to do next, we can still live from that place of fullness.

[00:08:15.370] – Ann Kroeker

Just to kind of drive this home or make it super clear, what I’m hearing is basically every writer will want to become a trauma-informed writer because of the principles that are going to open us up to using language in a way that respects the reader and addresses these principles.

But at the same time, there may be some people, some writers, who are tuning in today, and they are someone who does directly also write from and possibly about their own personal trauma with a capital T or small t. Am I hearing you right?

[00:08:54.960] – Michelle Stiffler

Yes. And before you would ever come into any kind of writing and want to say, “I’m a trauma-informed writer,” I would advise anybody to really think about what that means for you.

Give it a year of really living that way. Set up some disciplines for yourself so that you are coming into your writing from a place of your own fullness sense of healing. Like you’ve worked through the content of your life enough to share it.

I would say it’s not something like, “Oh, I listened to the podcast. Now I’m a trauma-informed writer because I understand it.” It’s an investment in a lifestyle. Anybody involved in the trauma-informed movement has committed to a lifestyle of caring for themselves so that they can be compassionate towards others.

So, yeah, write about your trauma. B...

I hosted a virtual Christmas party in my membership program, Your Platform Matters (YPM).

At the party I encouraged a writing exercise: Christmas Reflections.

I asked these writers to close their eyes and go back in time to a warm and wonderful Christmas memory from their childhood.

Rather than trying to capture a big, sprawling scene, I asked them to zero in on a detail. Using the one-inch frame Anne Lamont talks about in Bird by Bird, they narrowed their focus to a detail that they could see, smell, taste, touch, or hear.

We captured those multi-sensory, concrete, specific details in words and phrases, dropping them in the Zoom chat.

What a quiet, creative gift it was to share those memories with each other, to go back in time, to reflect…to write.

After the party sendoff, I assembled the snapshot memories (with their permission) to create a free verse poem:

Popcorn captured on strings strung on the tree,Mom, sis, and I around kitchen table, molding memories out of salt dough ornaments.Snowed in with guests,ice skating on the road,fluffy snowflakes falling on faces,magic in the night sky.

Carols around the old upright piano—the twinkle in his eye bounced off his rosy cheeks as hisfamily sang the familiar tune.Pinecandlelightblack hairsparkling crystal necklacegreen silkreaching and hitting the high notes.

Candles glimmered in hands lighting evening darkness.The lonely ceramic clown tucked in the Nativity scene—family humor nestled amidst the holy.I bend pipe cleaner arms around tree branch—the hand-crafted felt mouse smiles back at me.In the midst of the darknesswe sat in the puddle of light from the tree.

Wrapping paper rustling in the night.Excited anticipation waiting at the top of the stairs,kitchen breakfast smells wafting up to us:bacon, sausage, cinnamon buns.We tiptoed down the stairs,our slippers silencing our steps.Cookies set out for Santa—only crumbs in the morning.Fireplace crackling—Santa’s in the kitchen!Afraid of men with beards, I was assured thatSanta Claus was gone.

Shiny blue bicycle.Silver blue-tinted ball ornament.The young girl looking back at methrough the ornament’s reflectionwas full of joyful smiles.Surrounded by the rapidly torn wrapping paper—utter delight.My fingers swiftly undid the twist tiesso I could stroke the loop braidsof my doll come to life from my favorite books.

Are we there yet? rang from the backseat.Grandma’s house full of warm laughter.Wrapped in blankets on the floorplaying the Authors card gameand Monopoly—the world was clear and bright.

Take a moment to try this yourself.

Close your eyes and capture that one-inch square of a warm and wonderful Christmas memory from your childhood.

Share it in the comments below. I want to go back in time with you to see, smell, and hear your Christmas reflection.

We so enjoyed the magic of creating this in community. I hope you find your writing community, as well. You’re always welcome to be part of Your Platform Matters!

Merry Christmas from the writers of YPM—and from me!

________________________________

Get the direction you need to improve as a writer with The Art & Craft of Writing.

Now enrolling cohorts that launch Jan 9, 2023.

In this eight-week intensive, I’ll help you elevate your writing skills and create a compelling piece you’ll be proud to show an editor or agent. By the end of our time together, you’ll have completed a 3,000-word piece, along with multiple short submissions that invite you to experiment and play with new techniques.

AI writing apps, programs, and tools are all over the news. People are reacting. They’re writing articles and opinion pieces, they’re recording podcasts, they’re discussing it in Twitter threads.

Some say don’t worry, AI writing tools can’t write like humans. Others claim this is an inkling of what’s ahead—they’re going to surpass our skills.

You’ll find articles suggesting we sign up and use the tech as a free writing assistant to help with researching, drafting, and writer’s block.

Of course there are those imagining worst case scenarios, but it’s not all gloom and doom. In fact, for a glimpse of what’s possible now, check out my “interview” with an AI writing app that’s making the headlines: ChatGPT.

The first thing I asked:

Here’s what ChatGPT wrote in response:

While AI writing tools like ChatGPT can be helpful for generating ideas or suggesting potential phrasings, they should not be seen as a replacement for learning the craft of writing. AI writing tools are limited by their programming, and they are not able to fully understand or replicate the creativity and nuance of human writing.

What do you think? It’s pretty good, isn’t it?

Let’s continue. My questions are bold.

ChatGPT: There are many ways that writers can learn the craft of writing, including:

• Reading widely and critically to develop an understanding of different styles and techniques

ChatGPT: It ultimately depends on the context and purpose of the writing. Writing conversationally can be effective for making the text more relatable and engaging for the reader, while incorporating literary techniques can add depth and complexity to the writing. In general, it is important for writers to consider their audience and their goals when deciding how to approach their writing.

ChatGPT: A conversational writing style is often preferred by readers who are looking for a more relatable and accessible text. This style can make the writing feel more personal and engaging, and can help to establish a connection with the reader. It is often used in informal writing, such as in blog posts or social media posts, where the goal is to engage the reader and invite them to participate in a conversation.

ChatGPT: A literary style of writing is often preferred by readers who are looking for a more complex and sophisticated text. This style typically incorporates literary techniques such as figurative language, symbolism, and other devices to add depth and complexity to the writing. It is often used in formal or academic writing, where the goal is to convey complex ideas or to engage the reader on a deeper level.

ChatGPT: Some things that a writer can add to their writing to make it stand out compared to AI-generated text include:

• A unique and personal voice that reflects the writer’s own experiences and perspective

(I kind of liked the answer and I wanted to see what else it might recommend, so tried to phrase the follow-up question to make it expand.)

ChatGPT: Some additional things that a writer can add to their writing to make it stand out compared to AI-generated text include:

• Complex and nuanced characters that have depth and individuality

ChatGPT: For nonfiction writers, the “craft” of writing refers to the skills and techniques used to effectively communicate information and ideas. Nonfiction writing can take many different forms, such as journalism, academic writing, technical writing, and more. In all of these cases, the writer must be able to clearly and accurately convey information and ideas, while also engaging and interesting the reader.

ChatGPT: The phrase “the art of writing” refers to the creative and expressive aspects of writing. It encompasses not only the technical skills and techniques used in writing, but also the ability to use language in a way that is imaginative, evocative, and unique. In this sense, writing is seen as a form of art, in which the writer uses words to create something that is beautiful, moving, or thought-provoking.

ChatGBT: If AI writing apps were able to author novels, it could potentially revolutionize the publishing industry. AI tools could potentially generate novel-length works at a much faster rate than human writers, and they could potentially do so without experiencing writer’s block or other common challenges that human writers face. However, there are also concerns that the widespread use of AI for writing could lead to a loss of diversity and individuality in literature, as AI-generated works may lack the creativity and uniqueness of human-authored works. It is difficult to predict exactly how the use of AI for novel-writing would play out, but it is likely that it would have both positive and negative impacts on the publishing industry.

ChatGPT: It is possible for AI writing tools to generate nonfiction content, but it is unlikely that they would be able to produce a full-length nonfiction book at this time. AI tools are limited by their programming, and they are not able to fully understand or replicate the complexity and nuance of human writing. While they may be able to generate short pieces of nonfiction content, such as news articles or product descriptions, it is currently beyond their capabilities to write a book-length work of nonfiction that covers a specific topic in depth.

ChatGPT: It is difficult to predict exactly when AI writing tools will surpass human writing techniques, if they ever do. While AI technology continues to advance at a rapid pace, there are many challenges and limitations to using AI for writing. One major challenge is that AI tools are not able to fully understand or replicate the creativity and nuance of human writing, which are essential components of good writing. Additionally, AI tools are limited by their programming, and they may not be able to adapt to new situations or changing contexts in the same way that human writers can. For these reasons, it is difficult to predict when, or if, AI writing tools will surpass human writing techniques.

ChatGPT: No, that was not the intention of my previous answer. My answer was intended to provide information about the current state of AI writing tools and their limitations, as well as to discuss some of the challenges and uncertainties surrounding their potential future development. I am a large language model trained by OpenAI, and I do not have the ability to make predictions or assumptions about the future. My purpose is to provide accurate and helpful information based on the knowledge that I have been trained on.

(It got a little creepy when ChatGPT started using first person pronouns.)

ChatGPT: If you are looking to become a better writer, there are several steps that you can take over the next year to improve your skills and develop your craft. Some suggestions include:

• Read widely and critically to expose yourself to different styles and techniques

People wonder about Stephen King’s pencil. Writers (including me) want to know what writing instrument he uses.

Why?

Maybe we all harbor a secret hope that if we get the same pencil as Stephen King, we’ll end up as prolific and successful as Stephen King.

Or if we discover what Annie Dillard writes with, we’ll produce the same type of literary prose as Annie Dillard.

Or if we use the same writing program as, well…fill in whatever writer you admire. If you use the same pencil, pen, writing program, or paper as your favorite writer, do you imagine you’re becoming a little bit more like them?

I poked around, and it sounds like King’s favorite pencil is the classic Blackwing 602, favored by such luminaries as John Steinbeck, Vladimir Nabokov, and Truman Capote.1

But while researching Stephen King’s pencil, I realized I wanted to hear from you—real writers at work.

Through social media, my newsletter, and a coaching call in my writing community, I asked:

What’s your favorite writing instrument?

And you told me.

I found out:

• There’s no one perfect pen for all writers.

Everyone’s simply using what they love.

People seem evenly split between pens and pencils, and some weren’t picky at all. Any old ballpoint pen was fine with them, even the kind they swipe from one of the businesses they frequent.

Others were more precise on brand, color, and tip, preferring fine, medium, or thick.

Curious to hear what these real writers use to do the work?

Let’s dive into the pens.

Ballpoint pens are at the top with BIC. Yes, that common brand is a favorite option. They’re easily found, they’re really cheap, and they come in fun colors. And a lot of people prefer one particular color, like blue, or one particular tip, like fine point.

Coming up right after BIC is the PILOT brand. The PILOT Precise V5 seems to be the favorite.

Good gel pens are adored by a lot of people (and hated by a few).

TUL pens are also coming in hot with a lot of writers who are addicted to them. I also heard from writers who love Paper Mate InkJoy, Sharpies, and Flair pens, as well as a couple of fountain pen users.

If you’re curious, when I grab a pen, I like the Pentel RSVP pen in black, fine point. They’re easily found and affordable, kind of like the classic BIC ballpoint.

As for pencils, well, again, BIC comes in strong with their mechanical pencils that a lot of people mentioned.

Others love mechanical pencils in general and aren’t particular about brands.

The Blackwing 602 is used by a few people who tracked it down and love it.

And a lot of people said they don’t have a preference—they’ll snatch any pencil within reach and start writing.

More specifically, I did hear about Paper Mate’s Mirado Black Warrior. A writer heard it recommended by author Daniel Silva and had trouble finding it, but once she did, reported that it’s excellent.

Someone mentioned they love writing with graphing pencils.

Whether they’re using a pen or a pencil, people are writing in all kinds of notebooks, and a few people love the freedom of writing on scrap paper with no lines.

Now let’s switch to writing programs.

Microsoft Word and Scrivener are neck and neck.

A lot of writers are using one or the other and sometimes both. After you export a Scrivener document as a Word document—and send it off to your editor—it’s much easier to track changes in Word.

Google Docs shows up as the next most popular option.

A few people use Open Source LibreOffice, and one person mentioned using Final Draft for screenplays.

When it comes to the earlier stage of the writing process—like taking notes and doing research—people are using Evernote, Notion, random index cards, and Post-Its.

And one person mentioned Roam Research, which pulls things together and finds connections between ideas using AI technology.

Finally, a few people are using dictation or transcription.

One person simply speaks into the Notes app; others use Otter.ai.

This has been a delightful discussion and discovery, and the conclusion is loud and clear—it’s the same conclusion John Steinbeck came to years ago.

Steinbeck wrote about his eccentric “pencil trifling.” In Journal of a Novel: The East of Eden Letters, he describes at length his search for the best possible pencil to do his work.

He tries a soft pencil, and that works fine one day and breaks the next. Then he tries a harder one, but that’s not quite right. Eventually he concludes:

You know I am really stupid. For years I have looked for the perfect pencil. I have found very good ones but never the perfect one. And all the time it was not the pencils but me.2

If you’re like me or Steinbeck, or the hundred people who shared with me what they write with, you love to test out pens, pencils, programs, and apps.

Don’t let that curiosity—dare I say, obsession—with pens, pencils, programs, and apps keep you from the actual work of writing.

Do you need Stephen King’s pencil?

I don’t think so, do you?

Feel free to try out a Blackwing 602 pencil—that is, if that’s actually what Stephen King writes with.

(Side note: I can see him telling the world one brand and then using another just to mess with us, can’t you?)

I tried it only to realize I prefer to write with pens and keyboards. But even those tools don’t really matter, because what we’re really writing with are:

• the memories we store up in our mind and heart,

Today, pick up your favorite writing instrument—or any writing instrument—and write 250 words toward your work in progress.

As Steinbeck discovered, it’s not about the writing instrument. It’s about the writer.

As long as we can remember that, we can write everything with anything.

Get the direction you need to improve as a writer with The Art & Craft of Writing.

Now enrolling cohorts that launch Jan 9, 2023.

In this eight-week intensive, I’ll help you elevate your writing skills and create a compelling piece you’ll be proud to show an editor or agent. By the end of our time together, you’ll have completed a 3,000-word piece, along with multiple short submissions that invite you to experiment and play with new techniques.

1. Abramovitch, Seth. “Why Is Hollywood Obsessed with This Pencil?” The Hollywood Reporter, The Hollywood Reporter, 9 Aug. 2013, https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/general-news/blackwing-602-why-is-hollywood-600265/.

Bryan Collins relies on a simple system that captures notes and ideas that flow directly into his projects when he sits down to write.

His writing routine doesn’t take all day yet achieves significant results. Find out how he works and test it out.

When you combine that with his simple system for collecting inspiration for all of your writing projects, you’ll be on your way to completing a full manuscript.

Ready to do the work and write the truth?

• Hear how Bryan has “green-lighted” himself

Bryan Collins is a USA Today best-selling author whose books include The Power of Creativity, This Is Working, I Can’t Believe I’m A Dad! and a best-selling series of books for writers.

He was a journalist and copywriter for years and has contributed to publications like Forbes, Lifehacker and Fast Company.

Today he runs his website Become a Writer Today, with the help of a team of writers, attracting several million visitors each year. And he hosts a popular writing podcast by the same name, where he deconstructs the writing processes of New York Times best-selling authors like James Clear and Daniel Pink.

• Become a Writer Today, Bryan’s website

Listen to the interview, or read the transcript below.

This is a lightly edited transcript.

[00:00:00.190] – Ann Kroeker

How would you like to develop a simple writing routine that doesn’t take all day to achieve significant results? And what if you could combine that with a simple system for collecting inspiration for all of your writing projects?

Today I have Bryan Collins of Become A Writer Today on the show, and he is sharing his one-two punch of a system-routine combo that turns out an impressive body of work.

I’m Ann Kroeker, Writing Coach. If you’re tuning in for the first time, welcome. If you’re a regular, welcome back. I’m sharing my best tips and training skills and strategies to coach writers to improve their craft, pursue publishing, and achieve their writing goals.

Bryan Collins is a USA Today best selling author whose books include The Power of Creativity this is Working, I Can’t Believe I’m a dad, and a best selling series of books for writers. He was a journalist and copywriter for years and has contributed to publications like Forbes, LifeHacker and Fast Company. Today he runs his website, Become A Writer Today with the help of a team of writers, attracting several million visitors each year by the same name, where he deconstructs the writing processes of New York Times bestselling authors like James Clear and Daniel Pink.

Let’s hear his practical advice for writers.

Ready to do the work and write the truth?

[00:01:32.770] – Ann Kroeker

Well, we have Bryan Collins on the show today. He is a podcaster and an author and a writer, and I cannot wait to ask him all kinds of really practical questions that we can pass on to listeners today. Bryan, thanks for being on the show.

[00:01:45.590] – Bryan Collins

It’s great to be here. Thanks for having me on.

[00:01:47.450] – Ann Kroeker

Thanks for taking the time. We’re in different time zones and I am excited to hear more.

[00:02:03.090] – Bryan Collins

Sure. So, ever since I was a kid, I wanted to be a writer and earn a living from the written word. I was a big fan of Roald Dahl back in the day, children’s author, and I figured the best way to do it was to become a journalist when I became 18 and it was time to pick something to study in college or university.

But I went to journalism college and spent more time going out to parties than I did actually taking notes. And I found it really difficult to find paying work. So I kind of drifted in and out of various freelance writing gigs during my 20s. I’m 40 now, by the way, for some context.

I got really frustrated with writing and I wasn’t a very good journalist, if I’m being honest. So I drifted into other careers that really weren’t suitable for me. But I still want to earn a living from writing, so I took a series of creative writing workshops that made a big impact on me.

I started by writing short stories and then entering short story competitions. I made a few mistakes. I spent a lot of time writing the same short stories rather than getting feedback.

[00:03:05.670] – Bryan Collins

And after about two or three years, I got frustrated with that and I was about to give up on writing altogether. But then I said, I’ll try something else. What if I try blogging and writing about the one thing I do know something about, which is the craft of writing?

So I had a technology blog that wasn’t getting a huge amount of traffic, which taught me the basics of WordPress and writing online. So I transitioned that site to become a writer today.

For a long time it was like a hobby. This is around 2014, so it would have been in my early 30s. For a long time it was a hobby, something I did around the side of a job.

I was surprised, or pleasantly surprised, when it turned into a part-time and then later a full-time business.

And then to give a bit more context, I did find work. I was working as a copywriter for a British software company. So I did get paid to write. And more recently I’ve left that job. I was there for about eight years, so now I’m working on my own business full time.

So that’s an overview of some of the ups and downs of my writing career to date.

[00:04:05.670] – Ann Kroeker

[00:04:13.470] – Bryan Collins

What I do today is I have a site for writers, and I used to write all the articles. Now I commission freelance writers to produce the articles, and then I have a set up a couple of other sites in different niches, or niches, as you say in the United States. I don’t write content for those, but I kind of replicate what works for my site for the other sites.

So I guess the business is a content publishing business and one of my jobs is to edit articles, so I’m using some of the skills I learned along the way in the business.

I self published books, so I was big into self publishing for a few years and I self published a parenting memoir last year, which was my fifth or sixth book.

And then I like podcasting because I get to talk to authors and experts like you. And as any writer or listener can attest to, writing can be quite lonely and isolating; you’re by yourself in a room, which can send you a little bit crazy.

That’s why I podcast. It’s to talk to people and to connect with other writers and share stories or anecdotes about what’s working or not working.

[00:05:19.350] – Ann Kroeker

Thanks for sharing that.

[00:05:32.290] – Bryan Collins

Yeah, like said, it’ll be deciding to write online.

I think anytime during my writing career where I’ve sought permission from somebody, it’s never worked out well.

By seeking permission, I mean going to an editor and asking them to hire me as a reporter. A few editors did hire me and then they let me go. Or going to a writing competition and asking a judge to pick my story over to hundreds or thousands of others who are trying to get a book deal, all of those kind of things.

Whereas any time I pick something that doesn’t involve gatekeepers or permission, such as self publishing—such as writing online or starting a podcast—I’ve always felt more comfortable with it personally, and I’ve had more luck with earning an income from us an...

With inspiration from Mark McGuinness, you’ll integrate poetry into your writing life as a pleasurable practice that elevates your prose.

In this interview, Mark describes the vision for his podcast and his own poetic beginnings, and he urges writers (and readers) to simply enjoy poetry.

You’ll also discover the impact poetry can have on us as readers and writers. You’ll see ways it intersects with and impacts prose—you can even play a literary game he describes at the end.

• How a mouthful of air is a perfect image for poetry and podcasts

Listen to episode 245 and check out excerpts in the transcript below. You’ll be inspired by his warm, encouraging advice. If his subtle persuasion succeeds, you may embrace poetry as the next step in your literary journey.

Mark McGuinness is a poet based in Bristol, UK. On his poetry podcast A Mouthful of Air he interviews contemporary poets about their writing practice and draws out insights that can help any writer become more creative, expressive and memorable.

Mark also takes classic poems apart to show us how they work and what we as writers can learn from the examples of poets including Yeats, Shakespeare, Thomas Hardy, Chaucer and Edward Lear.

• Visit amouthfulofair.fm

This is a lightly edited transcript.

[00] – Ann Kroeker

With inspiration from my guest Mark McGuinness, you may find yourself integrating poetry into your writing life as both a pleasure and a practice. I’m Ann Kroeker, Writing Coach. If you’re tuning in for the first time, welcome. If you’re a regular, welcome back. I’m sharing my best tips and training skills and strategies to help writers improve their craft, pursue publishing and achieve their writing goals. Today I have Mark McGuinness on the show, a poet from Bristol, UK.

On his poetry podcast, A Mouthful of Air, Mark interviews contemporary poets to discover their writing practice and draws out insights that can help any writer become more creative, expressive and memorable. Mark also takes classic poems apart to show us how they work and what we as writers can learn from the examples of poets like Yates, Shakespeare, Thomas Hardy, Chaucer and Edward Lear.

Listen in on our conversation.

[00:54] – Ann Kroeker

I am so excited to have Mark McGuinness on the call today on our show and we are going to talk about a lot of different things related to the creative life, the writing life, even the poetry life. Mark, thanks for being on the call.

[01:09] – Mark McGuinness

Thank you. It’s lovely to be here, Ann.

[01:12] – Ann Kroeker

I am looking forward to learning more about how you approach your own creative life and how you use and enable poetry to be part of what feeds your creative life, how you inspire others with poetry, because that seems to be a big part of your life.

Can you tell the listeners and viewers, can you tell us a little bit more about who you are and what you do?

[01:37] – Mark McGuinness

Sure. I am a poet living in Bristol, in the southwest of England, in the UK. I’ve been writing poetry quite a while and in my typical group of friends, I’m usually the one who reads poetry. I’ve always been quite aware that most people don’t read poetry most of the time.

There are a lot of people who are very literate, very well read, very avid readers, but who will generally read anything but poetry. And to my point of view, it’s not that hard. I think a lot of people get put off at school, they have a bad experience or they think it’s this thing up on a pedestal that they don’t understand or that isn’t going to speak to them in their lives.

And I got this urge about two years ago when I first got the idea for the show that I would really like to take some of these books behind me down from the shelf and just read a poem and just share it with people and say, “Isn’t that great? And notice what’s happening in the third line here. Isn’t it marvelous what she’s done with the rhyme or whatever?” And just to share the magic that I feel that I don’t think it’s that hard for other people to tune into.

[03:00] – Mark McGuinness

And then following on from that, I thought, “Well, actually, I know quite a few poets I’ve been to their readings. I’ve read their books. I’ve sat next to them in workshops. Why don’t I invite them on the show, too? And then they can read it.”

And so the way the show works is that every episode is focused on one poem, and the first thing you hear is the poem. Because if it’s a good poem, you don’t need an introduction. You don’t need to be told why you should like it or all the footnotes and stuff. You either like it or you don’t, or you feel something or you don’t. But you’ve really got to listen and put your kind of assumptions aside about it.

So we hear the poem read by either me, if it’s a dead poet, if they’re alive, I get them on the show and they read it themselves. And then we have a little bit of context, a little bit of, well, what’s going on in the poem? And again, if they’re alive and they’re on the show, I’ll ask them, where did the poem come from? How did you get the idea?

[03:59] – Mark McGuinness

How did you work it up? What process did you go through from the initial idea to what we have on the page or on the screen or in the ear. And quite often that journey is really surprising. I mean, as a writer, I’m fascinated by how things evolve. And if the poet is sadly no longer with us, then I will share my thoughts on why I think the poem is worthy of our attention and what I think is going on.

And then the end of the show, we hear the poem again. And even though it’s the same poem and the same recording, it should sound different. In fact, listeners tell me it sounds different because it’s a bit like a magic eye, because they can see things or they can hear things in it that they weren’t aware of the first time rounds. So that’s it. It’s all quite self contained.

[04:51] – Ann Kroeker

That is a wonderful concept. I took an online course in years past where we did these close readings, and it just opened my mind up. It took me back in time. I actually studied poetry and creative writing as an undergraduate at Big Ten University here in the States. And so I have a little exposure to poetry, and it was my entree into writing and building a writing life.

So tell us what the name of the show is and why you chose it.

[05:23] – Mark McGuinness

Okay. It is called A Mouthful of Air. And I know it’s a good title because I nicked it from W. B. Yeats in a little poem that he wrote, an early love poem. Would you like to hear it? It’s really short. It’s easier than me describing, of course.

Okay, so it’s called He Thinks of Those Who Have Spoken Evil of His Beloved.

And it’s not hard for us to guess that his beloved was like to be moored gone. Famously he was in love with her. She was a significant figure in the Irish political independence movement in the late 19th century. So it begins.

It’s just six lines, so blinking, you miss it, but it goes:

Half close your eyelids, loosen your hair,And dream about the great and their pride;They have spoken against you everywhere,But weigh this song with the great and their pride;I made it out of a mouthful of air,Their children’s children shall say they have lied.

And I love the fact that Yeats, he emphasizes a poem, in which case a song. He was a very lyric poet. He emphasizes how light, how insubstantial it is. It’s almost nothing.

[06:56] – Mark McGuinness

“Weigh this song.” She’s being criticized by people. He doesn’t like “the great and their pride.” And he’s saying, but you can’t—don’t respond to the criticism. Just “weigh this song” with it almost as though he’s saying that poetry can balance the scales of this injustice.

And he says, “I made it out of a mouthful of air.” So that’s what the poem is made of. It’s made of speech, it’s made of breath.

And of course, this takes us back to the origins of poetry, which is even older than writing. So it would have been spoken or maybe sung way back before people thought of writing poems down.

And I think this is something for me, something quite magical about poetry, that insubstantial thing. You’re making it out of nothing, really. A mouthful of air that still survives into the 21st century. And I thought, Isn’t that a lovely way of thinking about a poem?

And it’s perfect for a podcast, because what you get on the podcast, of course, is the spoken poem. Again, we’ve gone from the text back to speech. So that’s where I got it.

[08:02] – Ann Kroeker

It’s both literal and metaphor. And metaphor is a big part of poetry, and we can grab it.

Most of the people, I think, listening to my show are writing prose or novels or short stories or essays or articles, and probab...

Writers working on projects that are destined to be published—to be read—can struggle with nerves.

We edit our words before they have a chance to breathe on the page.

We hold back our true feelings and opinions.

We forget to play with language.

I tend to encourage my clients to move toward practical goals, to create work that is going to be published.

But at the same time, I also encourage writers to play, to get past the gates we put in front of ourselves and try to tap into those first thoughts without fear of being misunderstood.

If you’re a writer taking yourself a little too seriously, I have just the thing for you today—a writing exercise you can play with in your writing journal, where nobody will see it.

This one comes from Imaginative Writing by Janet Burroway. When you’re done, you’ll end up with a three-line poem (24).

Each of the lines has a template you can follow.

➤ Line 1: abstraction + verb + place

➤ Line 2: describe attire

➤ Line 3: summarize an action

Here’s one of her examples.

Hunger yells in the hallway, draped in cymbals; he stomps and shouts, “Hear me now!”

Notice how she plays with the template.

Line 1:

• “Hunger” is the abstraction

Line 2: “Draped in cymbals” is her way of describing some attire.

Line 3: “He stomps and shouts, ‘Hear me now!'” describes action.

It’s okay if your poems come out a little weird or kooky. That’s part of the fun of it.

You’re putting together ideas and images and creating something fresh—have fun with it!

Don’t overthink the noun, the verb, or the action. Simply play.

This offers a taste of some of the exercises we are going to play with in The Art and Craft of Writing.

If you’re reading this before August 29, 2022, you have a chance to sign up for a fall intensive I’m running: an eight-week program designed to help you get input on your writing while you learn literary techniques and put them into practice. You’ll get eyes on your work from peers in the cohort and from me, as well!

If you’re coming across this information after the fact, go to annkroeker.com/acw, which will take you to the page where you can sign up if it’s live or get on the waitlist if it’s not.

You don’t have to wait for that or even be in the program to play with writing. You can start today, with this three-line poem.

While you’re playing with your own words in your writing notebook, you don’t have to share anything with anybody. It’s just a chance to warm up—to get the creative juices flowing.

That said, maybe it helps to know that this writing coach loves to play with words.

Would you like to see what I came up with, just for fun?

Here’s one:

Ideas skid across my path; jaunty in their tilted caps and leprechaun-green suits, they dance a jig, daring me to catch them.

Here’s another:

Time slithers under the bedroom door,its wrinkled skin sloughing offas it scrapes the wood and leaves me behind, guilty of pressing snooze once more.

If you end up writing your own three-line poem and like the way it turned out—and you wouldn’t mind sharing it publicly—drop it into the comments below. Or you could share it with me privately via email.

I’d love to see what you come up with.

As writers, we do the work of writing, but by experimenting with a creative writing exercise now and then, we can also play.

Get the direction you need to improve as a writer with The Art & Craft of WritingIn this eight-week intensive, I’ll help you elevate your writing skills and create a compelling piece you’ll be proud to show an editor or agent. By the end of our time together, you’ll have completed a 3,000-word piece, along with multiple short submissions that invite you to experiment and play with new techniques.

Footnote: Burroway, Janet. Imaginative Writing: The Elements of Craft. Pearson, 2015. Page 24.

Literary agent Lucinda Halpern prepares us to navigate the industry and prepare for publishing. With her insights, we’ll position our project—and ourselves as authors—to pitch agents and get noticed.

She reveals what literary agents are really looking for when it comes to platform and clears up the concern about how much or how little to share of your book’s ideas on social media. And if you’re wondering what to really focus on when crafting your book proposal, Lucinda’s got insider info to help you make decisions.

After listening to (or reading) what she has to say, you’re going to feel more confident than ever as you prepare to pitch.

Lucinda says publishers are looking for books with “perennial potential”:

Publishers are trendcasters. They are futurists. They have to think about books from the perspective of what is going to sell when the book publishes in two years and then for five years after that, because they’re interested in books that backlist….So writers should be really savvy to what are the sort of trends that are happening in the media or on podcasts or Netflix series.

She urges writers to network.

See if you can discover the connection you have to someone in the industry. She says, “I always say get that six-degree-of-separation connection to an agent.” She continues, “There are so many blind submissions coming at [agents], better to have an ‘in’—a step up—if you can.”

Writers in my platform membership often ask how much they can share about their book idea—how much they can write or teach the topics—without giving too much away, so I asked Lucinda her opinion. You might be surprised (and relieved) by her response:

The rule of the day is the more free content, the better. And one of my authors, Paul Jarvis, had a really wonderful way of putting this: Teach everything you know…I believe in that so much. And editors believe in it, too. Because again, if they see that audience clamoring for your ideas…that’s a huge draw…It almost doesn’t matter that they’ve seen it before. It’s better they’ve seen it before.

When we discussed platform for nonfiction authors, I asked her for that magic number of how many subscribers or followers publishers (and agents) are looking for. She gave us the number, but not before offering an important disclaimer:

It differs for category and for the particular author that you are. So someone who’s a PhD or a doctor or finance professional or psychologist, there are a number of sort of more private industries where an editor is going to recognize your life has not been tweeting…

Whereas if you’re a journalist, it’s going to be how many bylines have you accumulated and what sort of publications and what is your Twitter following? How many people actually know who you are?

I just want you to know if you’re a business person and you’ve run this successful company, maybe again, you’re not so active on social media, but you have a YouTube channel that gets views and you also have a massive email list which publishers are more interested in than social media numbers.

I’m just giving you a sense of the diversity in the nonfiction sphere alone that we’re evaluating platform on. There is no one number.

I begged a little for the number.

Thankfully, she told us.

You want to know the number she’s looking for?

Listen, watch, or read the transcript below. (That specific answer is around the 17:56 mark.)

Lucinda Halpern is the President and Founder of Lucinda Literary, representing authors writing in the categories of business, health, lifestyle, popular science, narrative nonfiction, memoir, and upmarket fiction. She regularly shares publishing insights and motivation for writers here and hosts both live and online programs for aspiring authors here.

Ready to get your book noticed? Get Lucinda’s essential guide for writers: The 6 Things Every Book Pitch Needs — click here to receive your guide: www.lucindaliterary.com/subscribe

Get to know Lucinda and her literary agency:

• Website: www.lucindaliterary.com

• Naming the World: And Other Exercises for the Creative Writer, by Bret Anthony Johnston (Amazon Affiliate link; Bookshop.org link)

Ann Kroeker

Are you curious what literary agents are really looking for when it comes to platform, or are you sharing a little bit about some of your books big ideas on social media, and you’re a little worried that maybe you’re sharing too much and it might jeopardize the interest the agents have in your project? Are you wondering what to really focus on when crafting your book proposal?

Well, I have literary agent Lucinda Halpern on the show today. And this conversation is packed with ideas for how to get your book noticed. I’m Ann Kroeker, Writing Coach, and on this show, I help writers improve their craft, pursue publishing and achieve their writing goals.

Today, I have New-York-based literary agent Lucinda Halpern on the show. Lucinda Halpern is a literary lecturer and PR agent with over 15 years experience on both the corporate and agency sides of publishing.

As owner of Manhattan based literary agency Lucinda Literary, her roster of authors includes:

New York Times bestselling authors Susan Pierce Thompson, Chris Bailey, Kate Flanders, Paul Jarvis, the new work of Nicola Krause and Jake Wood. In a marketing and publicity capacity, Lucinda has worked with New York Times bestselling authors Stephen Dubner and Stephen Levitt of Freakonomics, Gretchen Rubin of The Happiness Project, Ben Mezrich of Bringing Down the House and Busting Vegas, and many more.

Ann Kroeker (01:23)

Let’s dive straight into this conversation with Lucinda, and I think you’re going to feel more confident than ever as you prepare to pitch Lucinda.

Ann Kroeker (01:31)

It’s great to have you on the show.

Lucinda Halpern (01:32)

Thank you so much. Wonderful to be here. Yeah.

Ann Kroeker (01:34)

I’m just really, really excited to introduce our listeners and let them have a glimpse of what it’s like to interact with an agent. So I’m going to give you a quick and easy question to start out with, just because I feel like, oh, surely you have a favorite what is your favorite book of writing that you recommend to your writers, those you represent or anybody you’re talking with?

Lucinda Halpern (01:57)

Sure. So there’s a great book that is little known. It’s so hard to choose right there’s Bird by Bird. There is a book by Bret Anthony Johnston, who was formerly creative writing director at Harvard. I fell in love with his novel. He wrote a second book called Naming the World, which I love. Like the discipline of being a writer, you just have to sit every day. Butt in the chair.

There’s a wonderful book I have on my bookshelf here called [How to Write] Like Tolstoy by Richard Cohen. He just has a wonderful sort of historical rendition of how all the great writers wrote. And recently I read Ann Patchett’s [This Is] The Story of a Happy Marriage, which is about her sort of memoir and also tips for writers. And I found that to be just incredible. So four books for you.

Ann Kroeker (02:51)

That’s awesome. I love it. People can expand their library of books on writing. That one about reading, writing like Tolstoy. Is that what you said? How to Write Like Tolstoy? I’m not familiar with that, but I’m thinking it could be a nice compliment to George Saunders book, A Swim in a Pond in the Rain. Are you familiar with that book?

Lucinda Halpern (03:11)

No, I haven’t read it. But this is a beautiful packaging that’s also rich.

Ann Kroeker (03:16)

It’s gorgeous. That’s a great idea to get people ready to write and coming at it from a lot of different angles. Thanks for your tips. Well, we have so many ...

Have you ever wondered what a writing coach is?

As you can imagine, I get asked this a lot. I mean, it is baked into my branding, and I love sharing insights I’ve gained over my years of coaching.

Let’s start with the simplest, broadest definition of what a writing coach is and does:

A writing coach provides you with input and support designed to close the gap between where you are as a writer and where you want to be.

I coauthored the book On Being a Writer with Charity Singleton Craig (2014). Our editor used similar language on the back cover copy of the book and in marketing materials:

Let this book act as your personal coach, to explore the writing life you already have and the writing life you wish for, and close the gap between the two.1

That phrasing captures the foundational purpose and core intent of this coaching role in a writer’s life, so I adapted it here.

And as a writing coach myself for over a decade, I can confirm that this is indeed a high-level description of writing coaching.

Every coach approaches the work differently based on their experience, background, training, and philosophy. As a result, not every coach will feel like the right fit for you.

In fact, you may need one kind of coach at one stage in your writing journey and another kind of coach later, and you want to find the right fit for your current goals and challenges.

To begin to understand what a writing coach is and does, let’s look at what a writing coach isn’t.

A coach may have been and may still be an editor. They may offer both services and, thus, be both a coach and an editor. They may also offer editorial input within their coaching style. But these are two different services, so writing coaches are not editors while they are coaching.

A coach may have been and may still be an agent. But these two services must be distinct and separate, since authors never pay for representation. If you find an agent who offers coaching, be sure the service you’re paying for is coaching.

A coach may have been a ghostwriter and may still offer ghostwriting as a separate service, but a coach’s role is not to collaborate or do any of the writing for you. You’re the writer!

A coach may have personal experience and success in social media, and find themselves recommending social media managers and designers—they might suggest how to approach social media to increase engagement with readers. But writers don’t hire coaches to set up marketing campaigns or design Instagram images.

A coach may offer marketing, publicity, or launch team services in addition to coaching. If they’re an author themselves, they may have personal experience with their own marketing and publicity to share and connect their client to someone on their team. While they may offer some of those services separately or toss out ideas, when the coach is coaching a client, they are not marketing or publicizing their client’s work or organizing a launch team.

My writing mentors—I’ve had at least five—invested time in me, guiding and steering me through phases in my career, and from those relationships, I know that a coach’s advice might feel like the advice you’ve gotten from a mentor. A coach might even have a mentor. You yourself might have both a mentor and a coach. Despite the similarities, however, a writing coach is not the same as a mentor.

A coach may have been—or still be—an English teacher or a professor, and a coach may also, separately, teach through courses, conferences, and workshops. I suppose a coach may informally teach through a one-on-one session. But coaches are different from teachers.

A writing coach is not replacing or competing with any of those roles.

In fact, you may need or want an editor, agent, or teacher at another stage of your writing life—sometimes you’ll need both at the same time: a coach and any number of these roles.

I plan to explore the differences between these roles in more detail in the future, but for now, let’s look at various categories of coaches in more detail, so you can grasp the variety and land on the type of coach to best support your writing needs and challenges.

As you research writing coaches, you’re going to see people calling themselves writing coaches. When you inquire about working with them, it’ll turn out they don’t offer what you need. That’s probably because their core strength may not be what you’re looking for.

Not all coaches are the same.

I see the term “writing coach” as the broadest label—an umbrella term, if you will. Under that are specialties.

You’re trying to align your needs and challenges and goals with their experience, training, philosophy, personality, and expertise.

Not all writing coaches are book coaches. In your search for a writing coach, you’ll discover some who focus on novelists, nonfiction authors, and memoirists. They may call themselves writing coaches or book coaches, or both. But their focus is on coaching authors—people working on book length projects. A book coach is a type of writing coach, but you may come across a writing coach who is not a book coach.

You’ll also find people who coach bloggers, copywriters essays and poets. And you may see coaches who offer guidance to freelance writers, grant writers, PhD candidates who are working on dissertations, professionals in the workplace who are seeking to improve their communication skills.

Another way coaches differ is through training, education, and experience, and that’s going to influence their specialties, style, and services even more.

Working with a writing coach who has training or background as a life coach may feel much different from someone who coaches out of experience as an editor or an academic, or as a marketer, or as an author in their own right. They may offer few resources or recommendations and rely instead on their skill in asking curious questions to free the writer to discover solutions to their own challenges.

A coach with an editorial background, on the other hand, may provide input on writing samples to point out areas of strength and weakness for a writer to improve craft. They may even assign homework to complete before each session.

Coaches who have been successful freelance writers might provide a plan for clients to launch their own business or supply some resources and reading materials.

And book coaches may rely on a framework or process they’ve developed that adds structure and deadlines, input and milestones for their clients—all so that the client completes a draft of their manuscript.

Coaches with experience building platform may work with the client to develop a plan of action or a set of strategies to try.

Add in their personality and their interpersonal communication style, and the types of coaches you could work with starts to seem endless, especially as this role is exploding right now, with coaches popping up everywhere with different kinds of certification as well.

Here are some of the types of coaches you’ll find.

In your search, you’ll discover coaches who serve PhD candidates completing their dissertations or undergrads leveling up their essays and response papers.

These coaches equip writers ready to launch their own freelance writing career, and they prepare them to present their services, whether that’s freelance for businesses or pitching and submitting to publishers.

Almost all coaches have experience working with writers who deal with writers of block, perfectionism, imposter syndrome, fear, and other mindset hurdles. But some coaches and often these are people with life coach background and training. They might not supply strategies, provide publishing advice, or send resources, but they are skilled at asking questions that unlock and unwind your creative blocks.

These coaches may serve poets, essayists, or writers of short stories. Some may have their MFA and prep people ready to submit to literary magazines and journals. They might specialize serving poets only, for example, or they might have experience in all kinds of literary writing and be able to help you no matter what you are pursuing. These coaches help you understand the process and organize yourself to begin submissions.

Some coaches serve professionals in the workplace who are leveling up their writing skills for professional development. This kind of coach helps clients become more confident with written communications in the corporate world.

This is really specific, but there are people with experience in writing successful grants who then offer that as a coaching service to support writers ready to craft their own grant.

Some coaches serve bloggers and digital writers—people getting started online or seeking to improve their style and try new approaches.

These writers may be transitioning from print and need input to feel comfortable and confident beginning to write in a way that follows principles and best practices for digital writing. A coach who specialize...

For author Clarissa Moll, hiring a writing coach was like finding her book midwife, and she urges writers to seek that kind of intimate, knowledgeable support and input for their own writing and publishing journey.

In this interview, Clarissa shares her approach to writing, platform, and publishing, like:

• make a list of 10 things whenever you’re stuck or developing an idea

Listen to episode 242 and check out excerpts below. You’ll be inspired by her clear, sensible, inspiring personality and advice.

Clarissa Moll is an author and podcaster and the young widow of author Rob Moll. Clarissa’s writing has appeared in Christianity Today, The Gospel Coalition, RELEVANT, Modern Loss, Grief Digest, and more. Her debut book, Beyond the Darkness: A Gentle Guide for Living with Grief and Thriving After Loss is forthcoming from Tyndale (2022).

Clarissa co-hosts Christianity Today’s “Surprised by Grief” podcast and hosts the weekly hope*writers podcast, The Writerly Life. She lives a joyful life with her four children and rescue pup and proudly calls both New England the Pacific Northwest home.

Enjoy these highlights from Clarissa’s interview.

As folks in my life kept saying to me, “You should write a book!” I thought, I don’t even know where to start.

I mean, I can write a five-paragraph essay. I can write a thesis. But to write 55,000 words? It seemed like an elephant that was too big to swallow.

I knew that to do it well, in a way that was sustainable in my own life, I needed to make sure that I was having a meaningful life outside of my writing.

And I knew if I wanted to do this again—if I didn’t want to end at the finish line so exhausted that I said, “No more. This is it.”—I knew I needed some guidance.

And so I reached out to you.

I gave birth to my four babies with a midwife, and when you’re in that delivery room, that baby feels like the only one that’s ever been born. And isn’t it wonderful to have a midwife stand beside you, who’s seen hundreds of delivered, to say, “This is normal. You’re doing great!” To be able to offer that encouragement and guidance along the way.

And so I found in you my book midwife. You’re the person who helped me to make that journey from just a nebulous kind of idea to something that’s really concrete.

One of the exercises that I have gone back to time and time again is one that we did together.

You encouraged me to write a list of 10 things. And if I struggled with making my list of 10, I had to write another 10.

When you’re out of ideas, just force yourself to put pen to paper. That’s where clarity is born.

It’s not born in the writer’s retreat over a long weekend or at a cabin by the lake. It’s born out of those very ordinary, disciplined kind of practices that you taught me.

Back in my acting days, I had an audition and the acting professor said, “Could you do an Irish accent for this audition?”

I said, “Oh, I don’t know how to do that. I’m sorry.” And nothing ever came of it.

A couple of weeks later, he came to me and said, “You know, I wanted to give you that role, but you said you couldn’t do it. Next time, say ‘I’ll learn how.'”

That kind of perspective has been really helpful for me, as I have said yes to things that are beyond whatever I have done before.

Had I podcasted before? No.

But when someone invited me to do the Christianity Today podcast, I said, “I’ll learn how. I’ll get the equipment. I’ll learn how to do the technology. I will do it.”

I’ve been trying to think about what other things I could do that relate to my writing.

Should I build in speaking more?

Should I be expanding podcasting?

Should I try to do some sort of retreat where I can be writing new materials that are actually more interactive?

Maybe group resources?

I’m trying to think beyond just book writing, and that’s exciting for me because honestly, I hadn’t thought about those things before.

I had just been thinking about this book baby and getting it born. And now as I entered this new stage—trying to think about how writing can be sustainable for me in the long haul—I’m thinking about diversifying in more ways than I ever did before.

I also hesitate, because I know that there’s some pressure to, once you publish a book, sort of build your writing empire. “Oh, it’s time to start a course!” Or it’s time to start this or that or the other thing.

And I think that’s where I always check with my heart and ask myself:

Is that where your heart is?

Do you need to write a new lead magnet because you know that this is what drives traffic and you feel the pressure to perform or to keep doing something? Or is it that you feel like you have something valuable to share?

And so in that space, checking my heart is a really good practice. To say, “Am I trying to build an empire here, or am I still doing the thing that I love—and am I reaching people with words that matter?”

When I do that, I find that I can take a break to rest without feeling any guilt.

[Question from Ann: What is the backbone of your platform? What is your core platform activity?]

I pitch and write.

And I love to do it.

I have a list on my phone where I keep article ideas. I usually get like an idea down and then start to get bullet points underneath it.

In fact, a lot of times when I’m driving, I’ll have my daughter help. “Hey, can you pull out my phone? I’ve got some ideas!”

And once I start to see stuff kind of globbing together around an idea, I think, “Oh, okay. It’s time to pitch that.” And I pitch it before I’ve written it, because that makes me have to write it if they say yes.

I like that external commitment. I like that there’s a little bit of pressure there.

And as soon as I have committed to writing it, I start trying to get the idea for the next one. Because I want to keep the momentum going.

I told my publisher that I was committed to being engaged with my audience. That said, I was married to a man who published books before social media was the gauge for what a platform should look like. And so I have kind of an old school attitude toward platform-building.

I’m going to call it vintage, though, because I liked that better than old school. But when Rob published both of his books, he engaged with readers.

That’s what he did. And it wasn’t through social media.

It was to speak.

It was through radio and other kinds of interviews.

He emailed people.

It had an intimacy that I think a lot of social media lacks today.

And so even though I am building my social media platform as best I can…I’ve determined that an engaged audience is always better than a big audience.

And so for me, the commitment has been not so much about numbers, but about engagement.

For example, when I sent out my monthly email, I write back to every single person who replies to me. I’ve committed to that.

I write to every single person who sends me a direct message on Instagram.

I’ve committed to that because I think it’s important for people—particularly in the space in which I write—to know that they’re not alone…to know that someone has read what they’ve written and cared about their words and wants to respond to them.

Who’s to say that if I had a gigantic following, I wouldn’t be able to do that anymore. But I’m grateful for the small enough following that I have to be able to relate intimately to my readers and listeners, because I think that’s where the beauty happens.

I worked in theater before I ever was a writer, and the live experience was exciting. There was the clapping, the laughter—there was an energy in that room.

And when you’re writing, it’s kind of a solitary practice. You’re all alone in your office, writing, hoping as you send your words out into the world, that it makes a difference to anybody.

And I think by committing to that kind of regular engagement with people you get some of that energy that I used to feel onstage. And that’s where the real magic and beauty happens in writing.

All that we don’t like about social media and all of its shortcomings—there is that—it’s closer to an immediate feedback that I really appreciate.

Keeping going when life feels hard is really hard. It’s hard to do. It’s hard to keep writing—to keep thinking that writing is something essential in your life.

When life gets hard—and life getting hard could be anything from pandemic stressors to job difficulties, and for me, it was losing a loved one, but—it doesn’t have to be that kind of loss for life to feel hard and for writing to feel expendable.

And so I think if I were to say anything to a writer, I would say: keep writing.

Even if it’s just a little bit.

A couple of sentences in an Instagram post?

That counts as writing.

Jotting notes while you’re waiting for your kids to be picked up in the school pickup line?

That counts as writing.

There are so many things that can count as writing! A really beautiful letter written to a loved one? That counts ...