Why might being “cool” make someone a dangerous person to work for? And why are some of the greatest leaders uncool? 

In episode 247 of At The Table, Pat and Cody challenge the cultural obsession with being “cool” and examine how it can corrupt leadership. Using a global study that defined six traits of coolness—especially “powerful” and “hedonistic”—they reveal how these values run counter to responsible leadership. Through stories, examples, and hard truths, they make the case that great leaders are often deeply uncool—and that's precisely what makes them trustworthy.

Topics Patrick Lencioni and Cody Thompson explore in this episode: 

(3:39) The Six Traits of Cool

* The hosts list the six cool traits: adventurous, autonomous, open, extroverted, powerful, and hedonistic.

* Pat expresses deep concern about “powerful” and “hedonistic” being celebrated.

(6:53) Cool Traits

* Cody and Pat analyze “open,” “autonomous,” and “adventurous” as potentially valid for leaders.

* They debate whether extroversion belongs in either coolness or leadership.

(10:28) Why Hedonism and Power Don’t Belong

* Why hedonism contradicts servant leadership.

* The trap of confusing likability or popularity with effectiveness.

(16:25) The Dangers of Hiring Cool Leaders

* How boards and teams often choose “cool” over capable.

* Flipping the script—celebrating uncool, authentic leaders.

This episode of At The Table with Patrick Lencioni is brought to you by The Table Group: https://www.tablegroup.com. We teach leaders how to make work more effective and less dysfunctional. We also help their employees be more fulfilled and less miserable. 

At The Table is a podcast that lives at the connection between work life, leadership, organizational health, and culture. Subscribe on Apple Podcasts (https://apple.co/4hJKKSL), Spotify (https://spoti.fi/4l1aop0), and YouTube (https://bit.ly/At-The-Table-YouTube). 

Follow Pat Lencioni on https://www.linkedin.com/in/patrick-lencioni-orghealth, http://www.youtube.com/@PatrickLencioniOfficial, and https://x.com/patricklencioni.

Be sure to check out our other podcast, The Working Genius Podcast with Patrick Lencioni, on Apple Podcasts (https://apple.co/4iNz6Yn), Spotify (https://spoti.fi/4iGGm8u), and YouTube (https://bit.ly/Working-Genius-YouTube). 

Let us know your feedback via [email protected]. 

This episode was produced by Story On Media: https://www.storyon.co.

How does the broader culture of your location influence your organization’s internal culture?

In episode 246 of At The Table, Patrick Lencioni and Cody Thompson explore how meta-culture—the broader geographic or societal environment—shapes the internal culture of organizations. From experiences at the DMV to moving company headquarters, they share insights on how values interact with location. 

Topics explored in this episode: 

(2:44) Organizational Culture Exists Within a Larger Culture

* The macro culture of a city or state can either support or resist company values.

* Remote work and multiple locations complicate maintaining a cohesive culture.

(6:15) Moving Your Company

* Leaders should consider not just financials but cultural fit when moving.

* The meta-culture can affect hiring, operations, and team morale.

* Certain locations make it easier to find people who reflect your values.

* Some environments create cultural friction, while others foster cohesion.

(9:35) Navigating Meta-Culture

* Leaders should actively ask how geography is influencing their organization.

This episode of At The Table with Patrick Lencioni is brought to you by The Table Group: https://www.tablegroup.com. We teach leaders how to make work more effective and less dysfunctional. We also help their employees be more fulfilled and less miserable. 

At The Table is a podcast that lives at the connection between work life, leadership, organizational health, and culture. Subscribe on Apple Podcasts (https://apple.co/4hJKKSL), Spotify (https://spoti.fi/4l1aop0), and YouTube (https://bit.ly/At-The-Table-YouTube). 

Follow Pat Lencioni on https://www.linkedin.com/in/patrick-lencioni-orghealth, http://www.youtube.com/@PatrickLencioniOfficial, and https://x.com/patricklencioni.

Be sure to check out our other podcast, The Working Genius Podcast with Patrick Lencioni, on Apple Podcasts (https://apple.co/4iNz6Yn), Spotify (https://spoti.fi/4iGGm8u), and YouTube (https://bit.ly/Working-Genius-YouTube). 

Let us know your feedback via [email protected]. 

This episode was produced by Story On Media: https://www.storyon.co.

What are some universal traits of successful leaders that any leader in any field can emulate? 

In episode 245 of At The Table, Patrick Lencioni and Cody Thompson reflect on a remarkable leader they consider one of the greatest CEOs they’ve encountered—Tony Mazzella of Mazzella Companies. Tony’s approach to leadership is rooted in humility, deep responsibility, and a relentless desire to learn, all without seeking fame or recognition. This conversation breaks down the traits that make a truly great CEO, far beyond what the public eye ever sees.

Topics explored in this episode: 

(2:42) Humility in Action

* Tony’s humility is evident in how he shares credit and doesn’t perform for attention.

(5:50) Identity & Integrity

* Tony’s peace stems from knowing his identity isn’t tied to performance.

(8:06) Responsibility and Motive

* Tony makes tough calls because he cares deeply for people; there’s no entitlement—just ownership of his role.

(10:28) Curiosity & Continued Growth

* Tony proactively pursued his Working Genius certification.

(13:41) Organizational Health 

* True heroes of organizational health are the leaders who consistently put in the hard work of implementation.

This episode of At The Table with Patrick Lencioni is brought to you by The Table Group: https://www.tablegroup.com. We teach leaders how to make work more effective and less dysfunctional. We also help their employees be more fulfilled and less miserable. 

At The Table is a podcast that lives at the connection between work life, leadership, organizational health, and culture. Subscribe on Apple Podcasts (https://apple.co/4hJKKSL), Spotify (https://spoti.fi/4l1aop0), and YouTube (https://bit.ly/At-The-Table-YouTube). 

Follow Pat Lencioni on https://www.linkedin.com/in/patrick-lencioni-orghealth, http://www.youtube.com/@PatrickLencioniOfficial, and https://x.com/patricklencioni.

Be sure to check out our other podcast, The Working Genius Podcast with Patrick Lencioni, on Apple Podcasts (https://apple.co/4iNz6Yn), Spotify (https://spoti.fi/4iGGm8u), and YouTube (https://bit.ly/Working-Genius-YouTube). 

Let us know your feedback via [email protected]. 

This episode was produced by Story On Media: https://www.storyon.co.

Are you missing out on innovation because you're avoiding discomfort? How can you embrace the tension that's required for innovation? 

In episode 244 of At The Table, Patrick Lencioni and Cody Thompson explore the crucial link between tension and innovation. They argue that real creativity requires discomfort—whether from interpersonal friction or environmental urgency. Through personal stories and business examples, they offer practical ways to embrace conflict and drive change before crisis strikes.

Topics explored in this episode: 

(1:14) Tension Can Be Beneficial

* Innovation is universally desired but rarely pursued.

* True creativity demands both environmental and interpersonal tension.

* Most teams avoid conflict until a crisis forces change.

(3:52) Manufacturing Tension and Creativity

* Cody discusses how companies often manufacture environmental tension to force innovation, especially when complacency sets in. 

* Pat connects innovation to creativity, drawing on his experience as an author and screenwriter. 

(9:17) Does Every Business Need to Innovate?

* Innovation applies to all types of companies in different ways.

* Entrepreneurs often thrive on tension, but most leaders need to learn it.

(14:15) Manufacturing Urgency

* Crises like COVID accelerate innovation by necessity.

* Teams can simulate pressure by setting rallying cries or tight timelines.

(19:24) Fear or Joy Can Drive Innovation 

* A team’s willingness to engage in healthy conflict is directly tied to innovation potential.

* The best employees crave meaningful tension and will leave if it’s missing.

Resources mentioned in this episode: 

* Only the Paranoid Survive: How to Exploit the Crisis Points That Challenge Every Company, a book by Andrew S. Grove. 

This episode of At The Table with Patrick Lencioni is brought to you by The Table Group: https://www.tablegroup.com. We teach leaders how to make work more effective and less dysfunctional. We also help their employees be more fulfilled and less miserable. 

At The Table is a podcast that lives at the connection between work life, leadership, organizational health, and culture. Subscribe on Apple Podcasts (https://apple.co/4hJKKSL), Spotify (https://spoti.fi/4l1aop0), and YouTube (https://bit.ly/At-The-Table-YouTube). 

Follow Pat Lencioni on https://www.linkedin.com/in/patrick-lencioni-orghealth, http://www.youtube.com/@PatrickLencioniOfficial, and https://x.com/patricklencioni.

Be sure to check out our other podcast, The Working Genius Podcast with Patrick Lencioni, on Apple Podcasts (https://apple.co/4iNz6Yn), Spotify (https://spoti.fi/4iGGm8u), and YouTube (https://bit.ly/Working-Genius-YouTube). 

Let us know your feedback via [email protected]. 

This episode was produced by Story On Media: https://www.storyon.co.

Why do so many successful leaders struggle with the feeling of "not being enough"? And how can leaders shift away from a scarcity mindset?

In episode 243 of At The Table, Patrick Lencioni and Cody Thompson explore the pervasive feeling of inadequacy among leaders. They discuss how a "not enough" mindset can drive individuals to seek validation through constant achievement. The conversation emphasizes the importance of vulnerability, self-awareness, and shifting from a fear-based to a joy-based approach to life and work.

Topics explored in this episode: 

(0:49) The Prevalence of "I'm Not Enough"

* Many leaders share a common feeling of inadequacy, often tracing it back to their youth. 

* This feeling can create a cycle of constantly striving to prove yourself, hindering your ability to find satisfaction in accomplishments. 

(5:04) The Impact of Vulnerability

* Sharing your feelings of inadequacy with others can normalize these experiences, encouraging them to acknowledge their own struggles and seek support. 

(9:07) The Scarcity Mindset

* Believing "I'm not enough" can lead to a scarcity mindset, affecting your perceptions of time, success, and resources. 

(14:23) The Illusion of Control

* The pursuit of control over outcomes can lead to anxiety and prevent you from embracing the present moment. 

(18:36) Finding Peace in the Journey

* Reframing your perspective can help you foster a sense of peace. 

* Embracing the journey and finding joy in the process can lead to greater fulfillment than solely focusing on the result.

This episode of At The Table with Patrick Lencioni is brought to you by The Table Group: https://www.tablegroup.com. We teach leaders how to make work more effective and less dysfunctional. We also help their employees be more fulfilled and less miserable. 

At The Table is a podcast that lives at the connection between work life, leadership, organizational health, and culture. Subscribe on Apple Podcasts (https://apple.co/4hJKKSL), Spotify (https://spoti.fi/4l1aop0), and YouTube (https://bit.ly/At-The-Table-YouTube). 

Follow Pat Lencioni on https://www.linkedin.com/in/patrick-lencioni-orghealth, http://www.youtube.com/@PatrickLencioniOfficial, and https://x.com/patricklencioni.

Be sure to check out our other podcast, The Working Genius Podcast with Patrick Lencioni, on Apple Podcasts (https://apple.co/4iNz6Yn), Spotify (https://spoti.fi/4iGGm8u), and YouTube (https://bit.ly/Working-Genius-YouTube). 

Let us know your feedback via [email protected]. 

This episode was produced by Story On Media: https://www.storyon.co.

How do we as business leaders not be discouraged by hard times and instead see the good that can result from them? 

In episode 242 of At The Table, Patrick Lencioni welcomes legendary financial expert and leadership voice Dave Ramsey for an unfiltered conversation about hard times. As Pat mentions in the intro, this is not your average interview. They discuss the current economic and cultural moment, explore the importance of values-based leadership, and call out the failures of transactional mindsets. This episode challenges leaders to hold the line on integrity, even—and especially—when things get tough.

Topics explored in this episode: 

(2:46) The Ubiquity of Adversity

* Leaders should expect to face new forms of adversity as they grow their business. 

* Adversity can distort one's perception, making challenges seem more overwhelming than they are. 

(8:24) The Genesis of a Calling

* How Dave’s bankruptcy led him to discover his calling in helping others manage their finances. 

* Helping others through hardship can transform personal struggles into a meaningful career. 

(17:24) Developing Resilience

* How previous challenges can build resilience and provide perspective on current difficulties. 

* Leaders must work through challenges rather than avoid them. 

(22:50) Navigating the Stages of Business

* Dave outlines the five stages of business growth: treadmill, pathfinder, trailblazer, peak performer, and legacy. 

* Each stage presents unique challenges and requires different strategies for success and progression. 

(31:09) Continuous Learning

* Effective leaders are lifelong learners who integrate insights from various sources and generously credit others.

Thanks to Dave Ramsey for being on the show! 

Learn more about Dave and his company Ramsey Solutions: https://www.ramseysolutions.com/ 

Follow Dave on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ramsey-dave/ 

Get Dave’s books mentioned in this episode: 

* Build a Business You Love: Mastering the Five Stages of Business: https://store.ramseysolutions.com/business-and-career/books/build-a-business-you-love-by-dave-ramsey/ 

* EntreLeadership: 20 Years of Practical Business Wisdom from the Trenches: https://store.ramseysolutions.com/business-and-career/books/entreleadership/ 

This episode of At The Table with Patrick Lencioni is brought to you by The Table Group: https://www.tablegroup.com. We teach leaders how to make work more effective and less dysfunctional. We also help their employees be more fulfilled and less miserable. 

At The Table is a podcast that lives at the connection between work life, leadership, organizational health, and culture. Subscribe on Apple Podcasts (https://apple.co/4hJKKSL), Spotify (https://spoti.fi/4l1aop0), and YouTube (https://bit.ly/At-The-Table-YouTube). 

Follow Pat Lencioni on https://www.linkedin.com/in/patrick-lencioni-orghealth, http://www.youtube.com/@PatrickLencioniOfficial, and https://x.com/patricklencioni.

Be sure to check out our other podcast, The Working Genius Podcast with Patrick Lencioni, on Apple Podcasts (https://apple.co/4iNz6Yn), Spotify (https://spoti.fi/4iGGm8u), and YouTube (https://bit.ly/Working-Genius-YouTube). 

Let us know your feedback via [email protected]. 

This episode was produced by Story On Media: https://www.storyon.co.

What happens when the external validation of your success conflicts with your internal values and purpose? 

In episode 241 of At The Table, Pat Lencioni and Cody Thompson explore the hidden dangers of traditional success metrics. They also discuss how businesses and individuals can lose their way when they chase recognition that doesn’t align with their original purpose.

Topics explored in this episode: 

(0:40) The Michelin Star Story

* How a small restaurant in Italy gave up its Michelin star to stay true to its identity.

(4:51) Aligning Success With Intentions

* Why companies lose their way when they follow external expectations.

* The importance of anchoring decisions to the question: "Why do we exist?"

(8:46) Success and Personal Growth

* Arthur Brooks' wisdom about valuing the process over outcomes.

* How personal definitions of success change over time, especially in creative fields.

(13:02) The Cost of Chasing the Wrong Goals

* How woundedness can drive people to seek approval through achievements.

* Reflections on athletes and leaders who chose integrity over external trophies.

* Why true success means being proud of who you're becoming, not just what you achieve.

(17:53) Staying Grounded Amid Temptation

* Lessons from early Table Group decisions to resist the IPO craze.

* The ultimate call to stick to your "why" for lasting fulfillment.

Books mentioned in this episode: 

* Unreasonable Hospitality by Will Guidara.

* The Advantage: Why Organizational Health Trumps Everything Else In Business by Patrick Lencioni.

* From Strength to Strength by Arthur Brooks.

This episode of At The Table with Patrick Lencioni is brought to you by The Table Group: https://www.tablegroup.com. We teach leaders how to make work more effective and less dysfunctional. We also help their employees be more fulfilled and less miserable. 

At The Table is a podcast that lives at the connection between work life, leadership, organizational health, and culture. Subscribe on Apple Podcasts (https://apple.co/4hJKKSL), Spotify (https://spoti.fi/4l1aop0), and YouTube (https://bit.ly/At-The-Table-YouTube). 

Follow Pat Lencioni on https://www.linkedin.com/in/patrick-lencioni-orghealth, http://www.youtube.com/@PatrickLencioniOfficial, and https://x.com/patricklencioni.

Be sure to check out our other podcast, The Working Genius Podcast with Patrick Lencioni, on Apple Podcasts (https://apple.co/4iNz6Yn), Spotify (https://spoti.fi/4iGGm8u), and YouTube (https://bit.ly/Working-Genius-YouTube). 

Let us know your feedback via [email protected]. 

This episode was produced by Story On Media: https://www.storyon.co.

Why is it so difficult to reform government inefficiencies? And what can organizations and households learn from eliminating waste in large, public institutions? 

In episode #240 of At The Table, Pat and Cody explore the concept of government efficiency through the lens of organizational health. Drawing comparisons between the Department of Government Efficiency (DOGE), the federal government, and dysfunctional teams, they highlight the painful necessity of accountability and cutting waste. 

Topics explored in this episode: 

(01:04) Reframing DOGE 

* The goal is to explore waste and accountability without partisan heat, looking instead at structure and culture.

(6:09) Government vs. Private Sector

* The federal government is not set up to be a team like private sector organizations.

(10:47) The Storage Unit Analogy

* Cody shares a story of trying to help a hoarder consolidate two storage units, which becomes a metaphor for government systems that resist change.

(15:24) Accountability 

* Leadership requires doing what is right, even when it’s unpopular or emotionally difficult.

(20:44) Mistakes Will Happen

* Even a well-intentioned cleanup will result in some regrettable losses.

* Without a willingness to risk minor mistakes, the entire system remains unsustainable.

(25:31) DOGE in Your Organization

* The hosts discuss applying DOGE at the Table Group. 

* Even healthy organizations benefit from periodically eliminating waste.

This episode of At The Table with Patrick Lencioni is brought to you by The Table Group. We teach leaders how to make work more effective and less dysfunctional. We also help their employees be more fulfilled and less miserable. 

At The Table is a podcast that lives at the connection between work life, leadership, organizational health, and culture. Subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and YouTube. 

Follow Pat Lencioni on LinkedIn and YouTube. 

Connect with Cody Thompson on LinkedIn. 

Be sure to check out our other podcast, The Working Genius Podcast with Patrick Lencioni, on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and YouTube. 

Let us know your feedback via [email protected]. 

This episode was produced by Story On Media: https://www.storyon.co/ 

How can we start to address unresolved challenges in our lives that impact people profoundly and sometimes in painful ways? 

In this episode, Patrick Lencioni and Cody Thompson discuss the podcast's return after a six-month break, and a shift in content to include broader societal and cultural issues. Pat also shares his personal journey of self-discovery, focusing on addressing his own wounds and trauma, and explores how this deeply personal work relates to leadership and organizational health.

Topics explored in this episode: 

* (8:04) The Impact of Wounds on Leadership

* How fear can drive leaders. 

* (11:58) The Catalyst for Self-Discovery

* Pat’s realization that running from his issues was more painful than confronting them. 

* The temptation to deny your own wounds. 

* (16:34) The Universality of Wounds

* Everyone has wounds, such as neglect, shame, rejection, and abandonment. 

* Healing is a lifelong process. 

* (21:14) Encouraging Healing

* Addressing wounds sooner rather than later. 

This episode of At The Table with Patrick Lencioni is brought to you by The Table Group. We teach leaders how to make work more effective and less dysfunctional. We also help their employees be more fulfilled and less miserable. 

Subscribe to At The Table on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and YouTube. 

Follow Pat Lencioni on https://www.linkedin.com/in/patrick-lencioni-orghealth, http://www.youtube.com/@PatrickLencioniOfficial, and https://x.com/patricklencioni.

Do you know about our other podcast? You can subscribe to The Working Genius Podcast with Patrick Lencioni on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and YouTube. 

Let us know your feedback on this episode via [email protected].

This episode was produced by Story On Media: https://www.storyon.co/ 

We're taking a break from uploading new episodes this fall, but we're looking forward to a return in 2025.  Thank you to all of our listeners!  

To take the Six Types of Working Genius Assessment: https://www.workinggenius.com/

Check out the 5 Dysfunctions of a Team Assessment: https://tinyurl.com/ttgteamassessment

To become a Working Genius Certified Facilitator: https://www.workinggenius.com/client/certification/