John Driver is an award-winning writer and collaborator of more than twenty-five books. In our conversation, we explore how understanding himself through the lens of the counterphobic Six has impacted his relationships with others, his work in ministry, and his writing.

We also discuss his new book, Not So Black and White: An invitation to honest conversations about race and faith. He shares how being a counterphobic Six impacted the writing of his book, why it's so important to open the doors to honest and engaging conversations about race and faith, and touches on whether the Enneagram can help inform the conversation around racism.

A former teacher with a history degree from the University of Tennessee, John lives near Nashville with his wife, Laura, and their daughter, Sadie. He serves as the executive and teaching pastor at The Church at Pleasant Grove and hosts the weekly podcast Talk About That.