Ray Godbold is a palliative care nurse faced with terminal cancer – but he doesn’t want to die in palliative care.

Robyn and Ray Godbold — Photo: Andrew Denton

Ray knows what some doctors prefer not to admit. He knows that, even in palliative care, not everything can be taken care of; that a patient’s choices about how they die are very limited; and that, sometimes, their dying involves a wildness nobody can predict.

What Ray doesn’t know is that his own death will turn out to be everything he was hoping that he and his family would be spared.

'I've been there when lots of people have had terrible deaths. No matter what palliative care people say, the last 24 to 48 hours of somebody's life can be completely unexpected.'

Ray Godbold

Ray and Robyn Godbold's children: Tara, Ella and Rory — Photo: Andrew Denton

Please note: this podcast is not about suicide. If you are interested in increasing your understanding of suicide and how to support someone experiencing suicidal ideation, visit the Conversations Matter or beyondblue websites.

If you (or someone you know) require immediate assistance, contact one of the following 24/7 crisis support services: Lifeline (13 11 14), Suicide Call Back Service (1300 659 467), MensLine (1300 78 99 78), beyondblue (1300 22 4636), Kids Helpline (1800 55 1800) or eheadspace (1800 650 890).

Ray at Tullamarine Airport — Photo: Robyn Godbold

Know more

• Article: 'Right to die: Dr Rodney Syme hands patient Ray Godbold life-ending medication', by Konrad Marshall – Age, 11 May 2015
• Multimedia feature: 'Into the darkness', by Konrad Marshall – Age, 13 November 2014
• Article: 'Dying with Dignity campaigner Ray Godbold farewelled by family', by Konrad Marshall – Age, 19 August 2015
• Article: 'The right to die at home', by Chris Fotinopoulos – Saturday Paper, 5 December 2015
• Transcript of testimony (PDF): 'Standing committee on legal and social issues: Inquiry into end-of-life choices', by Rory Godbold and Tara Szafraniec – Parliament of Victoria, 29 October 2015

In this episode

• Ray Godbold
• Robyn Godbold
• Ella Godbold
• Rory Godbold
• Tara Szafraniec (née Godbold)

Our theme music was composed by Zig Zag Lane for Zapruder's Other Films, and edited by Jon Tjhia. Music used in this episode includes 'Life Story' (Ólafur Arnalds and Nils Frahm), 'Longplay' (Luke Howard), 'Familiar' (Nils Frahm), 'We're All Leaving' (Arcade Fire), 'Abandon Window' (Jon Hopkins), 'Ain't No Grave Going to Hold Me Down' (Charlie Parr), 'untitled #1 (vaka)' (Sigur Rós) and 'Forty-Eight Angels' (Paul Kelly).

Your stories

If you're suffering, or someone you love has died badly – in a hospital, in palliative care, in a nursing home, or at home – add your voice and tell your story here.

Further information

Better Off Dead is produced by Thought Fox and the Wheeler Centre.

Executive producers Andrew Denton and Michael Williams. Producer and researcher Bronwen Reid. For Better Off Dead, the Wheeler Centre team includes Director Michael Williams, Head of Programming Emily Sexton, Head of Marketing and Communications Emily Harms, Projects Producer Amita Kirpalani and Digital Manager Jon Tjhia. Editing, sound design and mix on this episode is by Martin Peralta. Additional editing by Jess Fairfax.

Thank you

Thanks to Paul Kelly and Sony ATV for the use of his song ‘Forty Eight Angels’.

The series

Subscribe in iTunes, or your favourite podcast app. #betteroffdeadpod

Better Off Dead is produced by Thought Fox in partnership with the Wheeler Centre. It is written and created by Andrew Denton for Thought Fox.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Associate Professor Richard Chye is the director of the Sacred Heart palliative care unit at St Vincent’s Hospital in Sydney. A gifted physician and teacher, he is also a hugely influential figure in palliative care in Australia. Apart from being a member of various state and national committees, he’s a board member of Palliative Care Australia – the peak national organisation.

Responding to my request, Richard invited me to spend a week with his team to see what they do – and to discuss the subject of assisted dying.

Two things stood out as I watched the doctors and nurses of palliative care go about their work: the compassion and care from everyone as they helped people to die in often complex circumstances; and just as apparent, a deep resistance to the thought of assisted dying.

Exactly how deep I didn’t realise – until I sat down to speak with Richard.

Shayne Higson (second left), pictured with her sisters and their mother Jan (farthest right) who died of brain cancer: 'I thought that [with] terminal sedation … there would be no suffering, but that's not right' — Photo: supplied

'Love has got many ways of operating, I think … and I believe that assisting someone to die can be a loving act.'

Professor Ian Maddocks, first Chair of Palliative Care at Flinders University, and first President of the Australian and New Zealand Society for Palliative Medicine

Please note: this podcast is not about suicide. If you are interested in increasing your understanding of suicide and how to support someone experiencing suicidal ideation, visit the Conversations Matter or beyondblue websites.

If you (or someone you know) require immediate assistance, contact one of the following 24/7 crisis support services: Lifeline (13 11 14), Suicide Call Back Service (1300 659 467), MensLine (1300 78 99 78), beyondblue (1300 22 4636), Kids Helpline (1800 55 1800) or eheadspace (1800 650 890).

Know more

• Letter: From Ian Maddocks – The Monthly, February 2016

• Article: 'Euthanasia isn’t a substitute for palliative care at the end of life', by Richard Chye – Sydney Morning Herald, 9 November 2015

• Article: 'Andrew Denton: Doctors shouldn't look away when dying patients are suffering', by Andrew Denton – Sydney Morning Herald, 10 November 2015
• Blog post: 'Denton lacks understanding of dying process – a social worker’s perspective', by Elissa Campbell – Palliverse, 13 November 2015
• Video: 'Even the best palliative care can't always help' – Dying For Choice, 19 September 2013

In this episode

• Richard Chye
• Ian Maddocks
• Shayne Higson

Our theme music was composed by Zig Zag Lane for Zapruder's Other Films, and edited by Jon Tjhia. Music used in this episode includes '21:05' (Ólafur Arnalds and Nils Frahm), 'You Know Me Well' (Sharon Van Etten), 'The Shooting' (Nils Frahm), 'All of Me Wants All of You' (Sufjan Stevens), 'Videotape' (Radiohead) and 'Forty-Eight Angels' (Paul Kelly).

Your stories

If you're suffering, or someone you love has died badly – in a hospital, in palliative care, in a nursing home, or at home – add your voice and tell your story here.

Further information

Better Off Dead is produced by Thought Fox and the Wheeler Centre.

Executive producers Andrew Denton and Michael Williams. Producer and researcher Bronwen Reid. For Better Off Dead, the Wheeler Centre team includes Director Michael Williams, Head of Programming Emily Sexton, Head of Marketing and Communications Emily Harms, Projects Producer Amita Kirpalani and Digital Manager Jon Tjhia. Editing, sound design and mix on this episode is by Martin Peralta. Additional editing by Bec Fary.

Thank you

Thanks to Stanley Street Gallery, and to Paul Kelly and Sony ATV for the use of his song ‘Forty Eight Angels’.

The series

Subscribe in iTunes, or your favourite podcast app. #betteroffdeadpod

Better Off Dead is produced by Thought Fox in partnership with the Wheeler Centre. It is written and created by Andrew Denton for Thought Fox.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaking with doctors in Belgium, the Netherlands and Oregon, I’d learnt that in those places, palliative care and assisted dying are seen as things that go together – and assisting a patient to die may sometimes be the ultimate offer of help for those beyond the skills of even the most dedicated palliative care experts.

Spencer Ratcliff had never witnessed such pain as he saw during his partner Deb's final days – pain which palliative care staff were unable to relieve: 'I said, "What are we supposed to do? Just sit and watch her scream herself to death in pain?"' — Photo: Andrew Denton

Back home in Australia, the law forbids assisted dying. Without a law to protect or guide doctors and nurses, I wondered: how does palliative care here deal with those same kinds of patients?

Richard Chye is the director of palliative care at St Vincent’s Hospital in Sydney. When I asked him if I could spend a week in his unit to learn what it is they do, I was upfront with him. I told him I believed there should be a law for assisted dying in Australia – not a subject often raised within their walls – and that it would be one of many things I’d like to discuss with him and his team.

To my surprise, and to his credit, he agreed.

By the end of that week, two things struck me about the doctors and nurses of Sacred Heart. First: their deep commitment to, and compassion towards, their patients. And second: the universal acknowledgement of how hard they found it when a patient was beyond their help.

'I think we do provide dignity and good care, and the majority of the time, symptoms are managed well. But there are occasions when a symptom isn’t controlled, or someone has a rough journey – for whatever reason, you know – and you do think about that.'

Nursing unit manager Ken Webb

Please note: this podcast is not about suicide. If you are interested in increasing your understanding of suicide and how to support someone experiencing suicidal ideation, visit the Conversations Matter or beyondblue websites.

If you (or someone you know) require immediate assistance, contact one of the following 24/7 crisis support services: Lifeline (13 11 14), Suicide Call Back Service (1300 659 467), MensLine (1300 78 99 78), beyondblue (1300 22 4636), Kids Helpline (1800 55 1800) or eheadspace (1800 650 890).

Hear more Listen Better Off Dead: Interview with Alex Broom Embed player

Alex Broom, Professor at Sociology at the University of NSW, spent six months embedded in a Catholic hospice. His was the first study in Australia to explore patients’ views on assisted dying.

What he got was a unique insight into the gulf that exists between many patients’ expressed wish for help to die, and the response they receive.

Know more

• Article: 'The speech on dying you were prevented from hearing', by Michael Short – Sydney Morning Herald, 26 May 2015

• Article: 'OPINION: Time to act on medically assisted dying', by Brian Winship – Newcastle Herald, 19 June 2015

• Blog post: 'Denton lacks understanding of dying process – a social worker’s perspective', by Elissa Campbell – Palliverse, 13 November 2015

• Video: 'Even the best palliative care can't always help' – Dying For Choice, 19 September 2013

In this episode

• Nancy
• Fran
• Nam
• Therese Compton
• Ken Webb
• Philip Redelman
• Spencer Ratcliff

Our theme music was composed by Zig Zag Lane for Zapruder's Other Films, and edited by Jon Tjhia. Music used in this episode includes '23:17' (Ólafur Arnalds and Nils Frahm), 'In the Deep Shade' (The Frames), 'We're All Leaving' (Arcade Fire), 'They Move on Tracks of Never-Ending Light' (This Will Destroy You), 'Black Sands' (Bonobo), 'Petra' (Blue Dot Sessions), 'All of Me Wants All of You' (Sufjan Stevens), 'Says' (Nils Frahm) and 'Forty-Eight Angels' (Paul Kelly).

Your stories

If you're suffering, or someone you love has died badly – in a hospital, in palliative care, in a nursing home, or at home – add your voice and tell your story here.

Further information

Better Off Dead is produced by Thought Fox and the Wheeler Centre.

Executive producers Andrew Denton and Michael Williams. Producer and researcher Bronwen Reid. For Better Off Dead, the Wheeler Centre team includes Director Michael Williams, Head of Programming Emily Sexton, Head of Marketing and Communications Emily Harms, Projects Producer Amita Kirpalani and Digital Manager Jon Tjhia. Editing, sound design and mix on this episode is by Martin Peralta. Additional editing by Jon Tjhia.

Thank you

Thanks to Stanley Street Gallery, and to Paul Kelly and Sony ATV for the use of his song ‘Forty Eight Angels’.

The series

Subscribe in iTunes, or your favourite podcast app. #betteroffdeadpod

Better Off Dead is produced by Thought Fox in partnership with the Wheeler Centre. It is written and created by Andrew Denton for Thought Fox.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

The success of Oregon’s Death with Dignity Act – at 18 years, the world’s longest-running law of this kind – puts two things into sharp relief. Firstly, the increasingly desperate attempts of opponents to discredit it. Secondly, the truth they don’t want you to see – that this law works, and exactly as intended.

How that law came to pass in such a religiously conservative country stands as a masterclass in public policy, and one that set the template other US states have since followed.

Brittany Maynard: 'I would like all Americans to have access to the same healthcare rights' — Source: YouTube

The most significant of these was California, which in 2015 adopted Oregon’s law – thanks in no small part to a woman named Brittany Maynard.

Brittany was just 29, and dying of brain cancer, when she left her home in California to go and live in Oregon, where the law offered her a choice about how she died. Her decision to use her dying days to campaign publicly for a similar law in California made her a household name, with her videos attracting over 16 million views on YouTube.

As he signed California’s End of Life Option Act into law, Governor Jerry Brown – a Catholic – said: ‘I do not know what I would do if I were dying in prolonged and excruciating pain. I am certain, however, that it would be a comfort to be able to consider the options afforded by this bill. And I wouldn’t deny that right to others.’

'I think we do a much better job because of this law. It’s done exactly what it’s supposed to, and more.'

Leigh Dolin, former president of the Oregon Medical Association

Please note: this podcast is not about suicide. If you are interested in increasing your understanding of suicide and how to support someone experiencing suicidal ideation, visit the Conversations Matter or beyondblue websites.

If you (or someone you know) require immediate assistance, contact one of the following 24/7 crisis support services: Lifeline (13 11 14), Suicide Call Back Service (1300 659 467), MensLine (1300 78 99 78), beyondblue (1300 22 4636), Kids Helpline (1800 55 1800) or eheadspace (1800 650 890).

Hear more Listen Better Off Dead: Interview with Peg Sandeen Embed player

Peg Sandeen is the executive director of the Death With Dignity National Center in Portland, Oregon. Here, she describes how Oregon’s Death with Dignity Act works, and the campaign to take it to other states in America.

Know more

• Article: 'Twenty Years of Living with the Oregon Death with Dignity Act', by Eli Stutsman – GP Solo vol. 30 no. 4, 2013
  
• Report: 'Oregon's Death with Dignity Act – 2014' – Oregon Public Health Division, 2015
• Radio: 'California: Euthanasia' – The Law Report, ABC RN, 27 October 2015
• Video: 'Brittany Maynard Legislative Testimony' – Brittany Maynard/CompassionChoices (YouTube), 31 March 2015
• Article: 'Terminally Ill Woman Brittany Maynard Has Ended Her Own Life', by Nicole Weisensee Egan – People, 2 November 2014
• Video: 'Brittany Maynard's mother: Help me carry out her legacy' – The Telegraph (YouTube), 22 January 2015
• Article: 'California's governor has signed a bill legalising doctor-assisted dying' – Economist, 6 October 2015

In this episode

• Eli Stutsman
• Derek Humphry
• Leigh Dolin
• Kevin Yuill
• Alex Schadenberg
• Nancy Elliott
• Catherine Glenn Foster
• Katrina Hedberg
• Daniel E. Lee

Our theme music was composed by Zig Zag Lane for Zapruder's Other Films, and edited by Jon Tjhia. Music used in this episode includes 'Haust' (Ólafur Arnalds), 'Dead Radio' (Rowland S. Howard), 'The Puritan' (This Will Destroy You), 'Petiatil Cx Htdui' (Aphex Twin), 'LSD' (ASAP Rocky), 'I Might be Wrong' (Radiohead), 'Between Stones' (Blue Dot Sessions) and 'Forty-Eight Angels' (Paul Kelly).

Your stories

If you're suffering, or someone you love has died badly – in a hospital, in palliative care, in a nursing home, or at home – add your voice and tell your story here.

Further information

Better Off Dead is produced by Thought Fox and the Wheeler Centre.

Executive producers Andrew Denton and Michael Williams. Producer and researcher Bronwen Reid. For Better Off Dead, the Wheeler Centre team includes Director Michael Williams, Head of Programming Emily Sexton, Head of Marketing and Communications Emily Harms, Projects Producer Amita Kirpalani and Digital Manager Jon Tjhia. Editing, sound design and mix on this episode is by Martin Peralta. Additional editing by Jon Tjhia.

Thank you

Thanks to Paul Kelly and Sony ATV for the use of his song ‘Forty Eight Angels’.

The series

Subscribe in iTunes, or your favourite podcast app. #betteroffdeadpod

Better Off Dead is produced by Thought Fox in partnership with the Wheeler Centre. It is written and created by Andrew Denton for Thought Fox.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Shortly after arriving in Belgium, I learned of ‘Laura’ – a 24-year-old woman who had sought the right to be euthanised after years of unrelieved mental suffering.

Immediately, I heard alarm bells.

My gut reaction?

A 24-year-old who’s not terminally ill? Surely there’s a point at which a society says ‘no: you have too much life ahead of you for us to help you die’.

If you’d asked me to tell you the point where it began to feel uncomfortable, this was it.

After years of deep isolation, Marjorie Vangansbeke went to ULteam in pursuit of euthanasia. Instead, she came away with a diagnosis that helped her re-embrace her life — Photo: Emily Sexton

The days that followed, where I talked with some of Belgium’s leading psychiatrists and physicians, were amongst the most intense I’ve ever experienced.

Emotionally, I couldn’t shake the thought that this didn’t seem right. But intellectually, I wondered: is there more here than I know?

To be honest, I toyed with not including this story in the podcast: it is so fraught with ambiguity and nuance that I feared it could easily be misunderstood.

But two things persuaded me to continue with it. Firstly, that it was the people treating this young woman who had alerted me to her case. They wanted me to look at it – to try and understand.

And secondly? A meeting I had, two hours out of Brussels, with a man whose sadness was so intense it was almost visible. The story he told me would change my understanding of the world.

It led me to a question I had never considered before: what if the offer of euthanasia could actually save lives?

Pierre Pol Vincke and his daughter Edith who, after 18 years of severe mental illness and many denied attempts to seek relief through euthanasia, took her own life while in a psychiatric ward — Photos: supplied

'She realised that she was already dead, and whenever she asked for help for euthanasia, the answer of the doctors was to condemn her to stay alive.'

Pierre Pol Vincke

Please note: this podcast is not about suicide. If you are interested in increasing your understanding of suicide and how to support someone experiencing suicidal ideation, visit the Conversations Matter or beyondblue websites.

If you (or someone you know) require immediate assistance, contact one of the following 24/7 crisis support services: Lifeline (13 11 14), Suicide Call Back Service (1300 659 467), MensLine (1300 78 99 78), beyondblue (1300 22 4636), Kids Helpline (1800 55 1800) or eheadspace (1800 650 890).

Hear more Listen Better Off Dead: interview with Dirk De Wachter Embed player

Psychiatric euthanasias are the most difficult, and in some quarters, the most disputed of all forms of assisted dying. Here, Dirk De Wachter – one of Belgium’s leading psychiatrists, and author of the best-selling Borderline Times – discusses the complexities of a practice that he nonetheless cautiously supports.

Know more

• Video: '24 & ready to die' – Economist, 10 November 2015

• Article: 'Belgian bishops, pros agree: no euthanasia for "psychological suffering"', by Jonathan Luxmoore – CatholicPhilly.com, 11 December 2015

• Article: 'A commentary on "Euthanasia for psychiatric patients: ethical and legal concerns about the Belgian practice" from Claes et al.', by Lieve Thienpont and Monica Verhofstadt – BMJ Open, 5 January 2016

In this episode

• Marjorie Vangansbeke
• Lieve Thienpont
• Luc Proot
• Pierre Pol Vincke

Our theme music was composed by Zig Zag Lane for Zapruder's Other Films, and edited by Jon Tjhia. Music used in this episode includes '20:17' (Ólafur Arnalds and Nils Frahm), 'Tunnel' (Luke Howard), 'Familiar' (Nils Frahm), 'Dedication, Loyalty' (Nils Frahm), 'Hand, be Still' (Ólafur Arnalds), 'White Night' (Ludovico Einaudi) and 'Forty-Eight Angels' (Paul Kelly).

Your stories

If you're suffering, or someone you love has died badly – in a hospital, in palliative care, in a nursing home, or at home – add your voice and tell your story here.

Further information

Better Off Dead is produced by Thought Fox and the Wheeler Centre.

Executive producers Andrew Denton and Michael Williams. Producer and researcher Bronwen Reid. For Better Off Dead, the Wheeler Centre team includes Director Michael Williams, Head of Programming Emily Sexton, Head of Marketing and Communications Emily Harms, Projects Producer Amita Kirpalani and Digital Manager Jon Tjhia. Editing, sound design and mix on this episode is by Martin Peralta. Additional editing by Jess Fairfax.

Thank you

Thanks to field producer Emily Sexton, and to Paul Kelly and Sony ATV for the use of his song ‘Forty Eight Angels’.

The series

Subscribe in iTunes, or your favourite podcast app. #betteroffdeadpod

Better Off Dead is produced by Thought Fox in partnership with the Wheeler Centre. It is written and created by Andrew Denton for Thought Fox.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

If there is an epicentre for anti-euthanasia sentiment, it’s Belgium – home to what are often described as the most liberal euthanasia laws in the world. Here, people of any age – even, in some circumstances, children – can be euthanised.

Allegations are made of a euthanasia culture that has become so uncaring that the elderly are regularly despatched without their consent. The word ‘murder’ is sometimes used.

Arsène Mullie speaks to Andrew Denton — Photo: Emily Sexton

Tom Mortier — Photo: alexschadenberg.blogspot.com

Yet for all these claims, since Belgium’s euthanasia law was introduced in 2002, public support for it remains phenomenally high (over 80%) – and there has been no procession of Belgians coming forward to complain about what the law has done to their families.

Which is why Tom Mortier’s story is so powerful.

Alleging the wrongful death of his mother under this law, he has put a human face to the slippery slope.

Tom’s story is being used around the world as the ultimate cautionary tale about the fluidity of Belgium’s laws. There’s no doubting the pain that he feels. But is it a true reflection of a law – and a society – gone wrong?

'How can you say that you don't want to help if you're in palliative care? What do you do then with patients who want euthanasia? How can you say to a patient who suffers, "keep suffering, tomorrow it will be better"?'

Arsène Mullie, retired senior palliative care physician, Flanders

 

Please note: this podcast is not about suicide. If you are interested in increasing your understanding of suicide and how to support someone experiencing suicidal ideation, visit the Conversations Matter or beyondblue websites.

If you (or someone you know) require immediate assistance, contact one of the following 24/7 crisis support services: Lifeline (13 11 14), Suicide Call Back Service (1300 659 467), MensLine (1300 78 99 78), beyondblue (1300 22 4636), Kids Helpline (1800 55 1800) or eheadspace (1800 650 890).

Hear more Listen Better Off Dead: Interview with Marc Desmet Embed player

No doctor comes to the question of euthanasia lightly. In Belgium – a predominantly Catholic country – questions of faith, morality, and ethics often collide. Here’s palliative care physician, and Jesuit, Marc Desmet discussing his own complex relationship with euthanasia.

Know more

• Article: 'Attitudes towards assisted dying' – Economist, 27 June 2015

• Article: 'The death treatment', by Rachel Aviv – The New Yorker, 22 June 2015

In this episode

• Tom Mortier
• Yves Desmet
• Arsène Mullie
• Alex Schadenberg
• Jan Bernheim
• Margaret Otlowski
• Luc Proot
• Kevin Yuill
• Jacqueline Herremans
• Lieve Thienpont

Our theme music was composed by Zig Zag Lane for Zapruder's Other Films, and edited by Jon Tjhia. Music used in this episode includes 'We Disappear' (Jon Hopkins), 'B1' (Ólafur Arnalds and Nils Frahm), 'A2 (Max Cooper remix)' (Nils Frahm), 'Abandon Window' (Jon Hopkins), 'Hunting Bears' (Radiohead), 'I Might be Wrong' (Radiohead), 'Against the Sky' (Harold Budd and Brian Eno), 'Hammers' (Nils Frahm), 'The Mighty Rio Grande' (This Will Destroy You) and 'Forty-Eight Angels' (Paul Kelly).

Your stories

If you're suffering, or someone you love has died badly – in a hospital, in palliative care, in a nursing home, or at home – add your voice and tell your story here.

Further information

Better Off Dead is produced by Thought Fox and the Wheeler Centre.

Executive producers Andrew Denton and Michael Williams. Producer and researcher Bronwen Reid. For Better Off Dead, the Wheeler Centre team includes Director Michael Williams, Head of Programming Emily Sexton, Head of Marketing and Communications Emily Harms, Projects Producer Amita Kirpalani and Digital Manager Jon Tjhia. Editing, sound design and mix on this episode is by Martin Peralta. Additional editing by Bec Fary.

Thank you

Thanks to field producer Emily Sexton, and to Paul Kelly and Sony ATV for the use of his song ‘Forty Eight Angels’.

The series

Subscribe in iTunes, or your favourite podcast app. #betteroffdeadpod

Better Off Dead is produced by Thought Fox in partnership with the Wheeler Centre. It is written and created by Andrew Denton for Thought Fox.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

For those who hold out the Netherlands as a textbook case of a ‘slippery slope’, they see a law originally designed to help the terminally ill – but that has now ‘slipped’ to include those who aren’t. But the Dutch law wasn’t written to deal only with certain diseases; guided by doctors themselves, it was deliberately created for people whose suffering is ‘unbearable and untreatable’.

Barbara Heetman: 'My mother had to say totally from her own brain, heart, whatever, ‘I want this."' — Photo: Emily Sexton

This might include, for example, people with long-term, corrosive illnesses such as multiple sclerosis or motor neurone disease. In some circumstances, it may even include people with Alzheimer’s.

But if the basis of your law is that only a mentally competent adult can request euthanasia, how do you deal with cases where that competence is unclear?

Barbara Heetman’s mother, Jeanne, applied to be euthanised before losing herself in the fog of Alzheimer’s. Her request was considered by the End of Life Clinic (Levenseindekliniek) that specialises in complex euthanasia requests.

The many steps Jeanne had to go through to prove she was mentally competent provide a powerful demonstration of the care with which Dutch euthanasia law is carried out – and an equally powerful rebuttal of claims of a slippery slope.

Gerrit Kimsma: 'We are being transparent and I think we have a good system. We should be proud of it.' — Photo: Emily Sexton

'It is not something doctors like to do; they don’t. If you can get around euthanasia as a doctor, you will do it, because it costs you.'

Mariska Koster, a Dutch doctor, describing the impact of being involved in a euthanasia death

Please note: this podcast is not about suicide. If you are interested in increasing your understanding of suicide and how to support someone experiencing suicidal ideation, visit the Conversations Matter or beyondblue websites.

If you (or someone you know) require immediate assistance, contact one of the following 24/7 crisis support services: Lifeline (13 11 14), Suicide Call Back Service (1300 659 467), MensLine (1300 78 99 78), beyondblue (1300 22 4636), Kids Helpline (1800 55 1800) or eheadspace (1800 650 890).

Hear more Listen Better Off Dead: interview with Willie Swildens Embed player

Willie Swildens-Rozendaal has chaired the Netherlands’ euthanasia review committees since their inception. Here, she takes you through how they operate, and the safeguards built into the system.

Know more

• Article: 'Attitudes towards assisted dying' – Economist, 27 June 2015

• Article: 'The Last Day of Her Life', by Robin Marantz Henig – New York Times Magazine, 14 May 2015

In this episode

• Mariska Koster
• Theo Boer
• Steven Pleiter
• Gerrit Kimsma
• Eric van Wijlick
• Barbara Heetman
• Alex Schadenberg

Our theme music was composed by Zig Zag Lane for Zapruder's Other Films, and edited by Jon Tjhia. Music used in this episode includes 'Four' (Ólafur Arnalds and Nils Frahm), 'In Utero' (subaske), 'B1' (Ólafur Arnalds and Nils Frahm), 'Me' (Nils Frahm), 'For' (Nils Frahm), 'L$D' (ASAP Rocky), 'Slow Show' (The National), 'Hands, Be Still' (Ólafur Arnalds) and 'Forty-Eight Angels' (Paul Kelly).

Your stories

If you're suffering, or someone you love has died badly – in a hospital, in palliative care, in a nursing home, or at home – add your voice and tell your story here.

Further information

Better Off Dead is produced by Thought Fox and the Wheeler Centre.

Executive producers Andrew Denton and Michael Williams. Producer and researcher Bronwen Reid. For Better Off Dead, the Wheeler Centre team includes Director Michael Williams, Head of Programming Emily Sexton, Projects Producer Amita Kirpalani and Digital Manager Jon Tjhia. Editing, sound design and mix on this episode is by Martin Peralta. 

Thank you

Thanks to field producer Emily Sexton, and to Paul Kelly and Sony ATV for the use of his song ‘Forty Eight Angels’.

The series

Subscribe in iTunes, or your favourite podcast app. #betteroffdeadpod

Better Off Dead is produced by Thought Fox in partnership with the Wheeler Centre. It is written and created by Andrew Denton for Thought Fox.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

The Netherlands’ euthanasia laws are the longest-running in Europe.

Surprisingly, the drive to create them didn’t come from politicians; it came from doctors. Recognising that, like doctors in many countries (including our own), they were already assisting people to die, they pushed for a law that would bring the practice into the light – protecting both them and their patients.

The Hoffman sisters, interviewed in this episode — Photo: Emily Sexton

In Australia, we hear lots of dark things about the slippery slope the Dutch are sliding down. Critics suggest that their euthanasia laws have spawned a system of legalised killing that is now running out of control.

But what we never hear are the voices of the Dutch themselves. So I decided to go there to find out, first hand, how this system works – and if it really is out of control.

After all, this is a country where euthanasia not only has support across the political spectrum and from all the major medical bodies – but also has one of the highest levels of public approval in the world.

Perhaps there’s more to these laws than we’ve been told?

'It only lasted five minutes, but when I think back about it, it feels like a whole life – because we had this humour and this pure love feeling in the house. And I know for sure, and I can say with a hand on my heart, this is exactly how mother wants this.'

Marian Hoffman – describing the euthanasia of her mother, Gret, who was dying of cancer

Eric van Wijlick and Andrew Denton — Photo: Emily Sexton

Please note: this podcast is not about suicide. If you are interested in increasing your understanding of suicide and how to support someone experiencing suicidal ideation, visit the Conversations Matter or beyondblue websites.

If you (or someone you know) require immediate assistance, contact one of the following 24/7 crisis support services: Lifeline (13 11 14), Suicide Call Back Service (1300 659 467), MensLine (1300 78 99 78), beyondblue (1300 22 4636), Kids Helpline (1800 55 1800) or eheadspace (1800 650 890).

Hear more Listen Better Off Dead: interview with Rob Jonquière Embed player

The Dutch Right To Die Organisation, known locally as the NVVE, is 160,000 members strong – bigger than any political party in the Netherlands. They are essentially the patient’s advocates, advising them about their end of life choices and arguing for their rights under the law. Listen to former NVVE chief executive (and at the time of this interview, their interim director), Rob Jonquière.

Know more

• Article: 'The Right to Die' – The Economist, 27 June 2015

• Article: 'Euthanasia on the rise in Netherlands', by Xavier Symons – BioEdge, 10 October 2015

• Article: 'The Last Days of Annie Bus: A Chronicle of Dutch Euthanasia', by Laura Höflinger – Der Spiegel, 4 February 2015

In this episode

• Alex Schadenberg
• Theo Boer
• Henk Reitsema
• Susan Hoffman
• Marian Hoffman
• Eric van Wijlick
• Gerrit Kimsma

Our theme music was composed by Zig Zag Lane for Zapruder's Other Films, and edited by Jon Tjhia. Music used in this episode includes 'I Might be Wrong' (Radiohead), 'Life Story' (Ólafur Arnalds and Nils Frahm), 'Loftið Verður Skyndilega Kalt' (Ólafur Arnalds), 'Says' (Nils Frahm) and 'Forty-Eight Angels' (Paul Kelly).

Your stories

If you're suffering, or someone you love has died badly – in a hospital, in palliative care, in a nursing home, or at home – add your voice and tell your story here.

Further information

Better Off Dead is produced by Thought Fox and the Wheeler Centre.

Executive producers Andrew Denton and Michael Williams. Producer and researcher Bronwen Reid. For Better Off Dead, the Wheeler Centre team includes Director Michael Williams, Head of Programming Emily Sexton, Projects Producer Amita Kirpalani and Digital Manager Jon Tjhia. Editing, sound design and mix on this episode is by Martin Peralta. Additional editing by Camilla Hannan. 

Thank you

Thanks to field producer Emily Sexton, and to Paul Kelly and Sony ATV for the use of his song ‘Forty Eight Angels’.

The series

Subscribe in iTunes, or your favourite podcast app. #betteroffdeadpod

Better Off Dead is produced by Thought Fox in partnership with the Wheeler Centre. It is written and created by Andrew Denton for Thought Fox.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Opponents of assisted dying in Australia want to leave things as they are, because of the worrying things they claim might happen if we did have a law.

But what about the worrying things that actually are happening because we don’t have one?

'They find themselves often initially charged with murder and … I don't think that society needs or requires that.'

Former Victorian Director of Public Prosecutions, John Coldrey

Left to right – Cathy Pryor; her mother Anne; her father Peter — Photos: Supplied

It is illegal in Australia to aid or abet a suicide, no matter the circumstances. This is, rightly, so that people aren’t encouraged to take their own lives when they are deeply vulnerable, or for someone else’s personal gain.

But it doesn’t take into account people like former Tasmanian nurse Cathy Pryor.

In the space of six months, Cathy assisted both her grievously ill parents to die. She was charged with, and found guilty, of attempted murder and assisting a suicide. Cathy went to jail until a judge decided that both were clearly acts of compassion, and allowed her to walk free.

The record shows Cathy is a convicted criminal. But should she ever have faced trial?

According to former Victorian Director Of Public Prosecutions, John Coldrey, it is inappropriate that someone acting out of love should have to go through what Cathy went through.

As a judge, Coldrey has himself been faced with similar crimes. He recounts his emotional decision to let Victorian man Alex Maxwell walk free after assisting his cancer-stricken wife to die.

In a society when there is no law for assisted dying – but where people are being assisted to die anyway – Coldrey is just one of many who believe that our law around assisted dying needs to be reconsidered.

Please note: this podcast is not about suicide. If you are interested in increasing your understanding of suicide and how to support someone experiencing suicidal ideation, visit the Conversations Matter or beyondblue websites.

If you (or someone you know) require immediate assistance, contact one of the following 24/7 crisis support services: Lifeline (13 11 14), Suicide Call Back Service (1300 659 467), MensLine (1300 78 99 78), beyondblue (1300 22 4636), Kids Helpline (1800 55 1800) or eheadspace (1800 650 890).

Hear more Listen Better Off Dead: Interview with Bill and Stuart Godfrey Embed player

In 2004, Tasmanian man Stuart Godfrey was charged with assisting his mother, Elizabeth, to die. He faced a maximum sentence of 21 years in jail and received a 12 month suspended sentence conditional on good behaviour. Stuart hasn’t spoken publicly since the day he left court. Now, he breaks his silence.

Know more

• Research sources: Do Australian Doctors Assist Patients to Die?

• Article: 'Nurse set to appeal over conviction', by Maria Rae – The Examiner, 20 December 2005
• Article: 'Assisted suicide case prompts calls for euthanasia law review' – ABC News, 20 December 2005
  
• Article: 'Police question Nagambie GP over "lethal dose" to help patient die', by Richard Baker and Nick McKenzie – The Age, 18 December 2015
• Article: 'Having a choice about how and when my mum died would have provided her with comfort and peace', by Rachel Friend – Daily Telegraph, 15 November 2015
• Article: 'Dear Mum, sorry I didn't kill you', by Tracey Spicer – Sydney Morning Herald, 13 June 2013
  
• Video: 'Dangers of Legalized Euthanasia? - Tony Abbott' – FORA.tv, 6 April 2009
• Video: 'IQ2 Debate: Should Euthanasia Be Legalized?' – FORA.tv, 2 March 2009

In this episode

• Cathy Pryor
• John Coldrey
• Coral Levett
• Rodney Syme
• Margaret Otlowski
• Marshall Perron

Our theme music was composed by Zig Zag Lane for Zapruder's Other Films, and edited by Jon Tjhia. Music used in this episode includes 'Hold Me Through' (Luke Howard), 'The Sinking Belle (Blue Sheep)' (Sunn O))) and Boris), 'Hand, Be Still' (Olafur Arnalds), 'Dysnomia' (Dawn of Midi), 'We (Too) Shall Rest' (Olafur Arnalds), 'Burial on the Presidio Banks' (This Will Destroy You), 'I Might Be Wrong' (Radiohead), 'Weatherman Accountable' (Big Noble), 'Videotape' (Radiohead) and 'Forty-Eight Angels' (Paul Kelly).

Your stories

If you're suffering, or someone you love has died badly – in a hospital, in palliative care, in a nursing home, or at home – add your voice and tell your story here.

Further information

Better Off Dead is produced by Thought Fox and the Wheeler Centre.

Executive producers Andrew Denton and Michael Williams. Producer and researcher Bronwen Reid. For Better Off Dead, the Wheeler Centre team includes Director Michael Williams, Head of Programming Emily Sexton, Projects Producer Amita Kirpalani and Digital Manager Jon Tjhia. Editing, sound design and mix on this episode is by Martin Peralta. Additional editing by Jon Tjhia.

Thank you

Thank you to Stanley Street Gallery in Sydney. Thanks also to Paul Kelly and Sony ATV for the use of his song ‘Forty Eight Angels’.

The series

Subscribe in iTunes, or your favourite podcast app. #betteroffdeadpod

Better Off Dead is produced by Thought Fox in partnership with the Wheeler Centre. It is written and created by Andrew Denton for Thought Fox.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

According to Canadian anti-euthanasia campaigner Alex Schadenberg, Melbourne doctor Rodney Syme is a threat to society: a ‘cowboy’ and ‘the worst of the worst’.

Why? Because for over a decade now, Syme has been publicly assisting terminally and chronically ill patients to die – despite the threat of jail for doing so.

How did a respectable 80-year-old urologist come to be a law-breaking cowboy?

Melbourne urologist Rodney Syme — Photo: supplied

'I thought: what is ethical about me being able to end my own suffering but my patients have to go on?'

Rodney Syme

Sandra Morris and Albert Leonzini, both featured in this episode — Photo: Emily Sexton

It began 40 years ago, with a patient of his who was dying of kidney cancer. Her name was Betty. Syme could hear her screams from the foyer of the hospital. He didn’t know how to help her – but his conscience was pricked.

Syme knew that, as a doctor, if he were in the same kind of pain, he could find drugs – or help from other doctors – that would mean he didn’t have to suffer like Betty.

He began to wonder: why should he have access to this help, but not his patients?

Over the last two decades, Rodney Syme estimates that he’s helped more than 100 people to die. Assisting a suicide carries a maximum five-year jail term in Victoria. But, despite publicly challenging the police to charge him, no charges have yet been laid.

In late 2015, on national television, Syme admitted that he had helped Point Lonsdale man Steve Guest to die.

He continues to provoke the law in the hope that a new and more compassionate one can be written: one that allows people with unbearable and untreatable suffering to request assistance to die.

Please note: this podcast is not about suicide. If you are interested in increasing your understanding of suicide and how to support someone experiencing suicidal ideation, visit the Conversations Matter or beyondblue websites.

If you (or someone you know) require immediate assistance, contact one of the following 24/7 crisis support services: Lifeline (13 11 14), Suicide Call Back Service (1300 659 467), MensLine (1300 78 99 78), beyondblue (1300 22 4636), Kids Helpline (1800 55 1800) or eheadspace (1800 650 890).

Hear more Listen Better Off Dead: Interview with Sandra Morris Embed player

Through Rodney Syme, Albert Leonzini – dying of motor neurone disease – has obtained the lethal, illegal drug Nembutal, which offers him the opportunity to be in control of how he dies. But for all the peace of mind it offers, it still takes great courage to decide to use it. Albert’s partner of 40 years, Sandra Morris, tells what happened next.

Know more

• Audio: Steve Guest calls Jon Faine on 774 ABC Melbourne in 2005
• Article: 'The speech on dying you were prevented from hearing', by Michael Short (with a transcript of Rodney Syme's speech) – The Age, 26 May 2015

In this episode

• Alex Schadenberg
• Rodney Syme
• Albert Leonzini
• Sandra Morris
• Catherine Glenn Foster

Our theme music was composed by Zig Zag Lane for Zapruder's Other Films, and edited by Jon Tjhia. Music used in this episode includes 'Says' (Nils Frahm), 'Abandon Window' (Jon Hopkins), 'You Know Me Well' (Sharon Van Etten), 'Remedios The Beauty' (Oren Ambarchi), 'Fall Out' (Mount Kimbie), 'Dissolved Girl' (Massive Attack), 'John My Beloved' (Sufjan Stevens) and 'Forty-Eight Angels' (Paul Kelly).

Your stories

If you're suffering, or someone you love has died badly – in a hospital, in palliative care, in a nursing home, or at home – add your voice and tell your story here.

Further information

Better Off Dead is produced by Thought Fox and the Wheeler Centre.

Executive producers Andrew Denton and Michael Williams. Producer and researcher Bronwen Reid. For Better Off Dead, the Wheeler Centre team includes Director Michael Williams, Head of Programming Emily Sexton, Projects Producer Amita Kirpalani and Digital Manager Jon Tjhia. Editing, sound design and mix on this episode is by Martin Peralta.

Thank you

Thank you to Paul Kelly and Sony ATV for the use of his song ‘Forty Eight Angels’.

The series

Subscribe in iTunes, or your favourite podcast app. #betteroffdeadpod

Better Off Dead is produced by Thought Fox in partnership with the Wheeler Centre. It is written and created by Andrew Denton for Thought Fox.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.