It’s much more productive – and will ultimately make you happier – to strive for excellence rather than perfection. A research professor at the University of Houston, Brené Brown has spent 20 years studying courage, vulnerability, shame, and empathy. She’s clear that perfectionism is actually a defence mechanism to shield us from failure and shame.

In this chat with Fearne, Brené explains the difference between guilt and shame, as the former can be helpful in some situations, whereas the latter can be debilitating and define entire lifetimes. Plus, they explore why humility and self-compassion are needed for us to admit when we’re wrong.

Brene is a prolific writer; her latest book, Atlas of The Heart: Mapping Meaningful Connections and the Language of Human Experience, is out on November 30th.

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