Rishad Tobaccowala has spent much of his career breaking out of boxes. First it was the spreadsheet and the idea that organizations can be managed through numbers alone. Then it was the office and the assumptions built into how we supervise and coordinate work. More recently, he has turned his attention to the broader structures that shape how we work and learn. In this episode, Dart and Rishad discuss the limits of measurement, management as a zone of control versus a zone of influence, and why the future may not fit inside the containers we inherited from the past.

In this episode, Dart and Rishad discuss:
- The containers that shape our thinking
- Why spreadsheets can blind us
- When measurement becomes the mission
- Talent without opportunity
- The office as a management tool
- Control versus influence
- Why companies become zoos
- What CEOs say about AI
- Why people resist transformation
- Choosing with our hearts, not our heads
- And other topics…

Rishad Tobaccowala is an author, advisor, speaker, and teacher focused on helping people and organizations thrive in times of change. He is the author of Rethinking Work and Restoring the Soul of Business: Staying Human in the Age of Data. Rishad spent nearly four decades at Publicis Groupe, where he served as Global Chief Strategist and Chief Growth Officer. Today he advises leaders around the world on leadership, innovation, technology, and the future of work. He also writes The Future Does Not Fit in the Containers of the Past, a newsletter on change and reinvention.

Resources Mentioned:
Rishad’s Book, Rethinking Work: https://www.amazon.com/Rethinking-Work-Seismic-Changes-Where/dp/1400249309
Rishad’s Book, Restoring the Soul of Business: Staying Human in the Age of Data: https://www.amazon.com/Restoring-Soul-Business-Staying-Human/dp/1400210542
Rishad’s Newsletter, The Future Does Not Fit in the Containers of the Past: https://rishad.substack.com/

Connect with Rishad:
Official website: https://rishadtobaccowala.com/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/rishadtobaccowala/
Twitter/X: https://x.com/rishad

Work with Dart:
Dart is the CEO and co-founder of the work design firm 11fold. Build work that makes employees feel alive, connected to their work, and focused on what’s most important to the business. Book a call at 11fold.com.