The church is so much more than a building—but when it comes to managing the physical property of church real estate, we often overlook the great good that can emerge from the land and structures. In this episode, social entrepreneur, strategic executive, and author Mark Elsdon joins Mark Labberton on Conversing to explore how churches and faith communities can reimagine their assets—land, buildings, and money—as instruments for mission, community transformation, and spiritual flourishing. From his decades of work at Pres House in Madison, Wisconsin, to his role as consultant, author, and co-leader of RootedGood, Elsdon shares stories of innovation, courage, and the hard but hopeful work of repurposing property and resources for God's mission in the world.

Episode Highlights

1. "It isn't about property, nor is it about money. It's about people's lives and it's about God's work in people's lives."
2. "We often have the faith of our forebears in the church. But the question is, do we have the courage of them?"
3. "I don't think God's going away. I don't think God's declining. But the way people are engaging their faith is really changed and is changing."
4. "Sometimes I talk about this as like the Blockbuster Video moment… People still want experiences of the divine. They just don't want to access it primarily on a Sunday morning."
5. "Constraints can produce creativity and, in the life of faith, can also produce a willingness to trust."

Helpful Links and Resources

• Mark Elsdon's Website
• *We Aren't Broke: Uncovering Hidden Resources for Mission and Ministry,* by Mark Elsdon
• *Gone for Good? Negotiating the Coming Wave of Church Property Transition,* by Mark Elsdon
• RootedGood - resources for congregations, judicatories, and other church leaders related to social enterprise and church property
• Good Futures Accelerator course
• How-To Guides
• Threshold Sacred Development - A mission-aligned property development company focused on supporting churches doing community-oriented development

About Mark Elsdon

Mark Elsdon lives and works at the intersection of money and meaning as an entrepreneur, non-profit executive, author, and speaker. He is the author of We Aren't Broke: Uncovering Hidden Resources for Mission and Ministry (2021) and editor of Gone for Good? Negotiating the Coming Wave of Church Property Transition (2024). In addition to his role as a director with RootedGood, Mark is also executive director at Pres House, where he led the transformation of a dormant non-profit into a growing, vibrant, multi-million-dollar organization.

Mark has a BA in psychology from the University of California–Berkeley, a master of divinity from Princeton Theological Seminary, and an MBA from the University of Wisconsin School of Business. He is an ordained minister in the Presbyterian Church, USA, and lives in Madison, Wisconsin. Mark is an avid cyclist and considers it a good year when he rides more miles on his bike than he drives in his car.

Show Notes

• Mark Elsdon reflects on thirty years of ministry, beginning with campus work at the University of Wisconsin–Madison.
• Launch of a $17 million student housing project that became a transformative ministry for thousands of students.
• Elsdon's discovery: "It isn't about property, nor is it about money. It's about people's lives and it's about God's work in people's lives."
• Creation of a sober housing program at Pres House that has saved the state of Wisconsin more than a million dollars in addiction-related costs.
• Innovative blend of mission, ministry, and real estate development to foster student flourishing.
• The unique impact of housing students in recovery alongside the wider student population.
• Elsdon's MBA studies at UW–Madison and his calling at the intersection of money and mission.
• The "Blockbuster Video moment" for American Christianity: people still seek meaning, community, and transcendence, but not in traditional formats.
• Challenges churches face with aging buildings, declining attendance, and financial strain.
• How repurposing property reveals new opportunities for mission and ministry.
• RootedGood's "Good Futures" Accelerator course: helping churches rethink land, buildings, and resources for social enterprise and revenue generation.
• Example of two congregations in Madison merging to create an environmentally sustainable multifamily housing project and community center.
• Redefining church property as community space: "flipping the script" so the building belongs to the neighborhood, with the church as anchor tenant.
• Courage, risk-taking, and letting go of past models are essential for churches to reimagine their future.
• The critical role of pastoral and lay leadership in sparking change and vision.
• Storytelling as central to church renewal: "We often have the faith of our forebears in the church. But the question is, do we have the courage of them?"
• Learning from the pandemic: every church has the capacity for innovation and adaptation.
• Honouring grief and loss while embracing resurrection hope in church property transitions.
• Example from San Antonio: members resisted redevelopment until their need for funerals in the sanctuary was acknowledged—turning "either/or" into "both/and."
• Affordable housing crisis intersects directly with church land opportunities.
• Turner Center study: California churches and colleges hold land equal to five Oaklands suitable for affordable housing development.
• Elsdon warns against cookie-cutter "models" and emphasizes local context, story, and creativity.
• Forecast: up to 100,000 church properties in the US may be sold or repurposed in the next decade.
• Elsdon's hope: more repurposing than selling, with land and buildings becoming assets for life-giving mission.
• The value of constraints: "Constraints can produce creativity and, in the life of faith, can also produce a willingness to trust."

Production Credits

Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.