Cider Chat

Collaboration Meets Ingenuity at Heartland Ciderworks

This episode is packed with insights for anyone interested in the intersection of entrepreneurship and craft cider-making. In Episode 427 of Cider Chat, Eliseo Bell-Uribe shares his story as a young entrepreneur and how and why he founded Heartland Ciderworks.

Practical Advice for Cider Startups: Learning to Collaborate

Starting a cidery from scratch is no easy task. The Eliseo shares practical advice on how to navigate the hurdles of zoning issues, sourcing equipment, and finding the right partnerships. By collaborating with a local winery, Heartland was able to sidestep some of the common challenges faced by new cideries, such as acquiring expensive equipment and navigating complex regulations.

For budding cider makers, this episode offers a blueprint for how to creatively solve problems and make the most of available resources. Whether it's building your own bottling setup or finding a winery willing to do custom crush, the key takeaway is to stay flexible and open to collaboration.

A Closer Look at Heartland's Ciders

Heartland Ciderworks may be a young company, but their lineup of ciders is anything but ordinary. Here's a quick look at the ciders discussed in the episode:

• Avalon
  • Description: Heartland's flagship cider that combines Foxwhelp, Golden Russet, Yarlington Mill, and Dabinett apples.
  • ABV: 7.7%
  • Notes: Features a beautiful orange hue with a balance of tannins and acidity.
• Little Apple
  • Description: A low-alcohol cider kin made with rehydrated pomace and back-sweetened with Golden Russet and Foxwhelp.
  • ABV: 3.65%
  • Notes: Easy-drinking with a light and refreshing profile.
• Cooper
  • Description: A bourbon barrel-aged cider made primarily from Sweet Alford apples.
  • ABV: 6.4%
  • Notes: Rich with subtle bourbon notes, this cider is a limited-edition favorite, but more Cooper is in the cue!
• Heart of the Valley
  • Description: A community-foraged cider made with apples gathered from the Salem area, benefiting the local Boys and Girls Club.
  • ABV: 5.75%
  • Notes: A modern cider with a sweeter profile and a beautiful can design.
• Olive Branch
  • Description: A Newtown Pippin cider aged on olive leaves, offering a unique bitterness similar to hops.
  • Notes: A one-of-a-kind cider with complex aromas and a distinctive flavor profile.
• Rosé Cider (Upcoming Release)
  • Description: A co-ferment of red-fleshed apples with Pinot Noir grape skins, lightly oaked for added tannin.

Contact for Heartland Ciderworks

• Website: https://heartlandcw.editorx.io/hlcw
• In the US – Buy Heartland ciders online at Press Then Press

Support Cider Chat

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Mentions in this Cider Chat

• Totally Cider Tours
• Cider Institute of North America

Discover Red Island Cider on Prince Edward Island

Guest podcaster Al Saxs interviews Red Island Cider owner and maker Robert van Waarden in this episode 426 of Cider Chat.

Red Island Cider is located on Canada's reknown "Prince Edward Island" capital "Charlottetown" this cidery has helped revive the island's apple heritage while creating unique, story-driven ciders that reflect the culture, history and spirit of the region. Whether you're an orchardist, a cider maker, or simply a cider traveler, visiting Red Island Cider is an experience that goes beyond the glass.

The Art of Crafting Ciders with Local Stories

At Red Island Cider, every cider has a story. The flagship cider, Father Walker, is named after a local priest who inadvertently created a legendary batch of cider that fueled an unforgettable community gathering in at The Picnic at Groshaut 1897.

The story goes that between having the apples pressed for the Groshaut picnic and the actual picnic the cider had begun to ferment. The song details the events that day as the now fermented cider was being drunk.

To listen to the full song sung by Art Cahill, https://digitalcommons.library.umaine.edu/songstorysamplercollection/19/

Father Walker's is a dry cider, made with Northern Spy, McIntosh, and Cortland apples and recently won a gold medal at the Great Lakes International Cider and Perry Competition (GLINTCAP), cementing its place as a top-tier craft cider.

Another standout is Devonport, a hop cider named after a historic bar in Charlottetown known for growing its own hops in the 1830s. This cider offers a citrusy, grapefruit-forward profile that appeals to both beer drinkers and cider enthusiasts alike.

Red Island's Ghost Series is a collection of limited-edition ciders, each named after historic shipwrecks off the coast of Prince Edward Island. These ciders, draw inspiration from the tales of ships like the Conqueror and Castalia, which met their fates in the island's treacherous waters. The Rose made with locally sourced haskap berries has a vibrant rosé hue and notes of raspberry, blueberry, and cranberry notes, is a true taste of PEI's agricultural bounty.

Loyalist Road Cider is a complex blend made from 27 different apple varieties sourced from a small orchard near Charlottetown.

Robert on the French Cider Tour next to one of the many massive barrels at Manoir de Montreuil Al Saxs steaming mussels with Red Island Cider Contact for Red Island Cider

• Website: https://redislandcider.com/

Mentions in this Cider Chat

• French Cider Tour
• #xpromotecider @spacetimemeads
• #xpromotecider @puntadefierro
• #xpromotecider @tomoliverscider
• #xpromotecider @woodyperennialguthrie

#xpromotecider

The Showering name is synonymous with both innovation and tradition in the world of cider for the past 187 years. In this Episode 425 of Cider Chat, Nick Showering shares a bit on his family's cider-making roots that stretch back over 400 years and in the past 180 years in the town of Shepton Mallet, Somerset, England.

Nick Showering A Storied Legacy in Somerset

The Showerings have been crafting cider in Somerset for nearly two centuries. It all began with a small pub, The Ship Inn, where cider was made and served locally. As generations passed, the family expanded their influence, eventually creating Babycham—a sparkling perry that revolutionized the beverage industry and played a key role in shaping British drinking culture in the 1950s. The playful brand with the signature reindeer brought a fresh, elegant option to women in a male-dominated pub scene.

Hello Triple Vintage!

Triple Vintage is made with 100% cider apples all grown in Somerset. The featured apple in this cider is Dabinett. Solera, the technique of blending different ferments, in this case three different vintages of high-tannin apples, creates a delectable cider that balances depth of flavor with an elegant finish for the Triple Vintage.

Enjoy the Triple Vintage which is sold throughout the UK in fine dining establishments or online (link below) in a large stemmed red wine glass. Serve slightly chilled.

The Triple Vintage comes in 375 ML bottles.

What's Next for the Showerings?

With their sights set on continuing to produce fine cider and Nick Showering clearly enjoying the challenge, time will tell. For now it appears it is all about maintaining a foot in the door of the ever increasing "fine cider" category and the prospects of introducing a new generation of drinkers to the possibilities of high-quality cider…making that very good news for the industry at large.

Contact for Showerings Triple Vintage

• Website: https://showeringscider.co.uk/products/showerings-triple-vintage-cider

Mentions in this Cider Chat

• Episode 422 John Bunker Keynote: Orchards and Legacy
• Episode 423 Apple Identification 101 John Bunker
• Subscribe to Cider Chat YouTube
• Totally Cider Tour - French Cider Tour
• Woodfolk Cider, Ontario Canada
• Spy Ciderworks & Distillery, Ontario Canada

Apple Phenotyping: The Tools Every Orchardist Needs

In Episode 424 of Cider Chat, we dive deeper into the intricate world of apple identification, this time focusing on apple phenotyping — the art and science of describing apples by their physical characteristics. This is Part 3 of the three part series on John Bunker, renowned author, apple detective, and founder of FEDCO Trees. Expect a master class and experiential lesson as he shares his extensive experience and provides a valuable toolbox of techniques that for apple fans, cider makers and orchardist.

What is Phenotyping?

Apple phenotyping refers to the process of identifying and describing apples by their observable physical traits, such as size, shape, color, and texture. These characteristics, known as phenotypes, help orchardists distinguish between different apple cultivars. While apples may be genetically identical, they can exhibit slight variations based on their environment, making phenotyping a key skill for identifying and preserving apple varieties.

Why is Apple Phenotyping Important?

Phenotyping is more than just a way to describe apples; it's a critical method for orchard care, especially for those looking to preserve historic and rare apple varieties. John emphasizes that understanding the nuances of the apples you grow allows you to ensure that your orchard is correctly labeled and organized. This attention to detail not only improves the quality of your cider apples but also helps preserve the legacy of historic cultivars.

Phenotyping also allows orchardists to confirm apple identities in cases where DNA testing isn't readily accessible or when historical records are incomplete. Whether you're comparing apples from different orchards or identifying a lost variety, having a reliable set of phenotyping techniques in your toolbox is essential.

Watch this entire presentation at Cider Chat YouTube

The Orchardist's Toolbox: Key Techniques for Phenotyping

John encourages orchardists to keep a thorough record of the apples they grow, noting characteristics such as:

• Size and Shape: Measure the diameter of the apple and observe its overall shape (e.g., round, oblate, or conic).
• Color and Skin: Note the ground color (the apple's underlying color) and any blushes, stripes, or russeting that appear on the skin.
• Stem and Cavity: Examine the length and thickness of the stem, as well as the depth and width of the cavity where the stem attaches.
• Calyx and Basin: Check whether the calyx (the dried flower at the apple's base) is open or closed, and assess the depth and shape of the basin around it.
• Core and Seeds: Cut the apple open to analyze the core's shape, size, and location, as well as the number and appearance of seeds.

These observations not only help you identify your apples but also provide insights into the health of your orchard and the quality of your cider apples.

Join the Conversation on Cider Chat YouTube

To see John Bunker's full slideshow presentation on phenotyping apples and learn even more about his techniques, be sure to subscribe to the Cider Chat YouTube Channel. This episode is packed with invaluable knowledge for anyone looking to refine their skills in orchard care and apple identification.

Mentions in this Cider Chat

• Episode 422 John Bunker Keynote: Orchards and Legacy
• Subscribe to Cider Chat YouTube
• Totally Cider Tour – French Cider Tour
• American Cider Association – CiderCon 2025

In Episode 423 of Cider Chat, we delve into the fascinating world of apple identification a.k.a. Apple Id with the one and only John Bunker, a renowned author and the c0-founder of FEDCO Trees, Maine Organic Farmers and Gardners Association (MOFGA). Hear as he shares his lifelong passion for tracking down historic apple varieties and teaching others how to preserve these treasures is truly inspiring.

This presentation is part one of a two-part series on Apple ID recorded at CiderCon2024.

John Bunker portrait by John Alsop of Cornville, ME

Hear John Bunker walking us through the intricacies of apple identification, reminding us that it's not just about identifying a fruit — it's about preserving history. For orchardists and cider makers, understanding the varieties in your care is a crucial part of maintaining the integrity of your orchard and the quality of your cider apples.

00:00 Introduction to Cider Chat and Apple Mysteries

01:37 John Bunker's Apple Identification Journey

04:11 The Importance of Apple Identification

10:11 Understanding Apple Trees and Grafting

21:39 Resources for Apple Identification

25:37 DNA Profiling and Apple Identification

30:12 Practical Apple Identification Scenarios

33:40 Mentors and the Black Oxford Apple

34:39 DNA Profiling and Apple Identification

37:06 The Mystery of the Canadian Strawberry

38:52 The Hunt for Lost Apples

41:36 Identifying Seedlings and Grafted Trees

45:49 Commercial Orchards and Misidentified Apples

48:47 The Role of Historical Records in Apple Identification

53:26 The Fun and Challenges of Apple Hunting

58:05 Becoming an Apple Detective

01:04:31 Conclusion and Final Thoughts

Contact for John Bunker

• Website: Outonthelimbapple.com

• Books recommended in this episode:

  • Apples and the Art of Detection by John Bunker (2019)
  • Systemic Pomology by UP Hedrick 1925
  • The American Fruit Culturist: Containing Practical Directions for the Propagation and Culture of All Fruits Adapted to the United States, John Thomas 1849
  • The Fruit Manual, Robert Hogg 1886
  • Episode 422 John Bunker Keynote: Orchards and Legacy
  • Subscribe to Cider Chat YouTube
  • Totally Cider Tours - French Cider Tour

New York Apple Camp Keynote Address by John Bunker

In a captivating keynote from the 2023 New York Apple Camp, John Bunker, the founder of FEDCO Trees and renowned author on apple identification, shared his profound connection to the outdoors.

John Bunker in his favorite shirt and barefeet

Enjoy the Keynote by John that weaves his passion for Jazz, quotes from thought leaders and his insights on the late frost of 2023 and the community surrounding apples, cider and plants.

In This Keynote Address

Find 5 key areas that John bunker focused on during his speech.

• Connection to Nature and OrchardsObservations
• Learnings from Plants
• Environmental and Agricultural Reflections
• Philosophical Musings and Inspirations
• Legacy and Passing the Torch

View from above of John Bunker's Keynote Subscribe to Cider Chat for Part 2 with John Bunker

• – Apple ID 101 w/John Bunker coming out in Episode 423 – August 21, 2024

What is the New York Apple Camp?

The camp took place for the first time ever in July of 2023. It was held at the Ashokan Camp in New York State. The Ashokan Center is an independent music & nature nonprofit established in 2008. The musical history of this camp was a perfect fit for John's keynote which also featured many references to musicians and songs.

Mentions in this Cider Chat

• 374: NY Apple Camp News! Bonus Cider Chat Live on NY Apple Camp
• 380: The Legacy of the Downing Brothers: Architects of Nature
• 388: French Origins of American Apples | The Grand-Mères
• 385: Cider's Ki – Remix
• French Cider Tour 2024

Eli Shanks' of Punta de Fierro Fine Cider

In this episode meet Eli Shanks, a passionate cider maker sharing his journey from urban Massachusetts to the picturesque landscapes of Chile, where he co-founded Punta de Fierro Cider. Eli developed an early interest in food systems and agriculture with influences from attending The Farm School, working at The Food Project and running an orchard in Concord, Massachusetts.

Eli Shanks with bottle of Punta de Fierro

The History of Cider in Chile

Chile has a rich tradition in fermenting apples into cider. Historically, cider production was a significant part of the local economy. Families were taxed based on their cider tank space, and cider apples were a staple in many homes. Chilean cider, known as "Chicha", is a farmhouse product with various local recipes, often fermented naturally with residual sugar.

Organizations and Collaborations

Eli has co-founded the Chilean Cider Collective (COSIGI), which aims to preserve and promote Chile's unique cider heritage. COSIGI works closely with the Department of Agriculture and other local organizations to support cider makers and enhance cider production quality.

Mother Pudu with baby

Chilean Ciders Tasted in this Episode

• Punta de Fierro - is both the name of the cidery and the cider itself. This particular cider tasted during the recording was made in 2022. It was bottle #61 out of 771 bottles in total. All the apples came from one single orchard that Eli and his business partner Carlos Flores produce cider on.
• TenCai Sidra - this cidery is owned by Rene Galindo. We tried two ciders during the recording. The first cider called The Truth. This cider was co-fermented with an indigenous berry called Maqui. They are smaller than blueberries and lend a purplish hue to the cider.
• The second cider -called Futura was made by first grinding the apples and allowing them to macerate for approximately 24hours. The apple blend is Reineta and Braeburn.

All the ciders were feremented dry and are delicious!

Contact Info for Punta de Fierro

• Website: https://puntadefierro.com/

Contact Info for TenCai Sidra

• Website: https://tencaisidra.cl/

Mentions in this Cider Chat

• Cider Chat info flyer - scroll down this page and download and post flyer! Tag Cider Chat and use hashtag #xpromotecider
• ciderGoingUP Campaign page - find a list of business supporting Cider Chat!

Basque Cheesecake and Santa Cruz Cider

Cider Chat Live brings you a tasting of a celebratory cider from Santa Cruz Cider Company paires with a what is called Basque Cheesecake!

Basque Cheesecake is much less dense than classic New York cheesecake. It is crustless, and has a golden, beautiful caramelized exterior. It also has a much lighter texture and flavor. The cheesecake is baked at a high temperature in order to get that burnt exterior and super creamy interior.

In this Live on Cheesecake and Cider from Santa Cruz!

This mini episode came about when Nicole Todd who cofounded Santa Cruz Cider Company in California with her sister Natalie. Nicole was traveling east to Maine with fellow book club members who she has been meeting monthly since covid kicked off in 2020.

They spent the evening with Ria, went for a swim to avoid the heat and drank copious amounts of cider and ended the evening with a special pairing of the 10 year anniversary cider with the Basque Cheesecake.

Hear about this anniversary cider and how it all started with foraged fruit in the Monterey Bay area of California. It is one part picking up fruit that turned into a relationship with an older orchardist in the Watsonville area of California.

Listen to past episodes with Nicole:

• 060: Nicole Todd | Santa Cruz Cider Company, CA
• 280: Why the Cider Maker Wears Fuzzy Slippers – describes the harrowing house fire that Nicole and her husband Felix survived!

Contact for Santa Cruz Cider Company

• Website: https://santacruzciderco.com/

Wooden Gate: From Farm to Cidery with Clint Caver

Clint Cavers and his wife Pamela have been farming for over 30 years at Wooden Gate The Farm and cidery is based in Pilot Mound, Manitoba, Canada which is right over the border of North Dakato.

Clint's journey from hobby fermenter to full-time cider maker now represents 95% of their farm's focus. Initially homesteaders, they shifted towards cider making due to a passion for fermentation. Clint began making wine and cider about 25 years ago, initially with fruit wines before discovering the potential of apples.

The Shift to Full-Time Cider Making

In 2018, Clint and Pam decided to turn their cider-making hobby into a business. By 2019, Wooden Gate obtained its official license, and in 2020, it became a full-time venture. This shift was motivated by their desire for a less labor-intensive activity and a need for fulfilling work after their children left home.

Orchard and Apple Varieties

Wooden Gate's orchard spans seven acres with about 800 trees, including winter-hardy varieties like

• Goodland
• Norkent
• Norland
• Kerr – which is featured in the Orchard Queen cider that is tasted and discussed in this episode
• and various crab apples such as Rescue and Trail

They have also planted heritage varieties and some English cider apple varieties like Dabinette.

Cider Production and Techniques

Clint emphasizes slow fermentation at low temperatures, with some fermentations lasting up to six months. Wooden Gate primarily uses cultured yeast, but experiments with wild ferments, particularly in their Orchard Queen cider. They produce about 50 cases of Orchard Queen annually and 300 gallons of other cider varieties.

Community and Events

Wooden Gate hosts various events, including an annual cider release and pop-up pizza and cider nights. Their son-in-law, a chef, handles the cooking, while their daughter plans events. They also groom cross-country ski trails in the winter, turning them into walking trails in the summer.

Five Core Principles of Wooden Gate

• 1. Community: Creating a sense of community around their cider and farm.
• 2. Environmental Stewardship: Using organic, permaculture, and holistic management practices.
• 3. Sourcing Locally: Using locally grown fruit and selling locally.
• 4. Quality: Ensuring their cider represents their farm and Manitoba's unique terroir.
• 5. Authenticity: Highlighting the distinct flavors of their region in their cider.

Contact Info for Wooden Gate Cider

• Website: https://louisemb.com/m/wooden-gate-cider

Mentions in this Cider Chat

• @spacetimemeads
• @woodengatecider
• @cultivarcreativestudio
• Listen to episode 190 Cider Revitalizes a 1750 Colonial Era Orchard | MA
• Stone Cow Brewery, Barre Massachusetts

Paving a Path for Cider Branding at Cultivar

Meet Kirk Evans, the founder of Cultivar Creative. In this episode, Kirk shares his journey from a casual cider maker to a professional brand designer specializing in cider packaging and identity.

Kirk Evans

Cultivar Creative focuses on creating comprehensive brand identities that go beyond just a logo. Kirk emphasizes the importance of a cohesive brand voice, graphical elements, and a well-thought-out brand guideline to ensure consistency across all marketing materials. His approach ensures that even small cider brands can present themselves professionally and attractively to consumers.

The Journey to Cider Branding at Cultivar

Kirk's journey into the cider world began in early 2020 when he decided to try making cider at home. What started as a hobby quickly turned into an obsession, leading him to a career shift. With his extensive experience in design and marketing, Kirk saw a gap in the cider industry for specialized branding services. Thus, Cultivar Creative was born.

The Importance of Brand Identity

According to Kirk, brand identity in the cider industry involves more than just a logo. It encompasses everything from the brand's voice to the graphical elements used in packaging. A strong brand identity helps cider makers communicate their story effectively and stand out on crowded shelves.

Kirk's process includes creating detailed brand guidelines that outline all aspects of the brand's visual and verbal identity. This comprehensive approach ensures that every piece of marketing material aligns with the brand's core message and appeals to its target audience.

Branding Tips for Cider Makers

• Know Your Brand: Understand who you are as a brand and what you want to convey to your customers.
• Be Bold: Don't be afraid to be bold and disruptive with your branding. Standing out is crucial in a competitive market.
• Consistency is Key: Ensure your branding is consistent across all platforms, from social media to packaging.
• Invest in Packaging: Eye-catching packaging can make a significant difference in attracting new customers.

Contact Info for Cultivar

• Website: https://cultivarcreative.com/

Mentions in this Cider Chat

• French Cider Tour 2024
• Who's cross promoting cider #xpromotecider
  • @spacetimemeads
  • @sraml_machinery encourage followers to listen to episode 324 featuring Jan Šraml
  • @degerdenner
  • @3dogciderbrewstillery
  • @hardciderguy